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View Poll Results: Do the terminal words rhyme ?

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  • Yes

    8 47.06%
  • No

    9 52.94%
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Thread: For Native English Speakers ONLY !

  1. #1
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    For Native English Speakers ONLY !

    Do the terminal words of the following verse rhyme:

    And, sighing, murmur to oneself
    I wish you'd gone to bloody hell

    Yes or No ?

  2. #2
    kak Guest
    Do we really need to be native english speaket only to see that a "elf" sound do not rhyme with "el" one???

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    i think this thread should wait until j.d. can get here and give us a more rounded explanation.

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    oh, where is alex shifrin when you need him?
    Just 'cause I'm easy, don't mean I'm naive

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    Originally posted by kakrout
    Do we really need to be native english speaket only to see that a "elf" sound do not rhyme with "el" one???
    Probably not, but I wanted to eliminate that variable

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    Originally posted by kakrout
    Do we really need to be native english speaket only to see that a "elf" sound do not rhyme with "el" one???
    "Elf" and "el" - do not. "Murmur to oneself" and "gone to bloody hell" do.
    I want to die like my grandfather - smiling in his sleep. Not screaming with horror, like his passengers.

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    Originally posted by Filimon
    "Elf" and "el" - do not. "Murmur to oneself" and "gone to bloody hell" do.
    I think you're confusing assonance with rhyme.

  8. #8
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    alas, the algerian is right. this is assonance, and at best a veeeeeeeeery weak rhyme.

    in terms of suitability for your translation, i think its 100% fine. As a 'rhyme or not' question, youre wrong...

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    Originally posted by Shaun
    alas, the algerian is right. this is assonance, and at best a veeeeeeeeery weak rhyme.

    in terms of suitability for your translation, i think its 100% fine. As a 'rhyme or not' question, youre wrong...
    Shuan,

    For lack of a better term, what are your "credentials" for judging a translation ?

    I'm a dual native native speaker (bilingual, but I've heard this term abused too much) with arguably good feel for both languages.

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    Originally posted by Shaun
    alas, the algerian is right. this is assonance, and at best a veeeeeeeeery weak rhyme.

    in terms of suitability for your translation, i think its 100% fine. As a 'rhyme or not' question, youre wrong...
    Obviously the question is in the definition of a "rhyme". Camus conveniently ignored my question about "minute" - "in it". The words clearly look different. Can you honestly say that they do not rhyme? So the words do not have to look the same to rhyme, do they?

    I would not even think to start translating Pushkin. It is a very unrewarding task, as even Nabokov found out. I just wanted to have some fun, as the name of the thread suggested. The concept is obviously lost on the author of the thread, in spite of the name.

    I also resent the fact that this particular thread is addressed to NATIVE English speakers only. I am a native Russian, so let everyone have a say.
    I want to die like my grandfather - smiling in his sleep. Not screaming with horror, like his passengers.

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    my credentials are zero. my russian is ok but not to the level where i would feel confident in my translation.

    My point was a general point about the translation of poetry from any language, especially when the language has a markedly different structure and syntax. In this case, I feel exact replications of rhyme/rhythm are less important than those of meaning/ideas/imagery within a loosely similar structure.

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    Originally posted by camus
    Shuan,

    For lack of a better term, what are your "credentials" for judging a translation ?

    I'm a dual native native speaker (bilingual, but I've heard this term abused too much) with arguably good feel for both languages.
    being bilingual does not make you an authority. So the goodness of your feel is extremely "arguable".

    I am also bilingual, so what? You for one do not seem to think it is relevant.
    I want to die like my grandfather - smiling in his sleep. Not screaming with horror, like his passengers.

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    Originally posted by Filimon
    Obviously the question is in the definition of a "rhyme". Camus conveniently ignored my question about "minute" - "in it". The words clearly look different. Can you honestly say that they do not rhyme? So the words do not
    have to look the same to rhyme, do they?



    Don't flatter yourself. I didn't notice this post. Anyway, I already answered the bit about "virtue" and "hurt you" which is a weak rhyme.

    Again, assonance isn't rhyme.

    As for fun, have fun, just spot ****ing arguing when you are wrong. You ask me to explain where you failed to keep the rhyme pattern and I explained it to you. Now you want to argue about something else. Get a clue.

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    I will "spot" when I feel like it, so naff off!
    I want to die like my grandfather - smiling in his sleep. Not screaming with horror, like his passengers.

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    Originally posted by Filimon
    being bilingual does not make you an authority. So the goodness of your feel is extremely "arguable".

    I am also bilingual, so what? You for one do not seem to think it is relevant.
    Filimon: you're not bilingual. You're a Russian who learned to speak English and who makes typically Russian errors with article usage.

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