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Thread: Who Will Ultimately Snub Russia on the 75th WWII Anniversary?

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    Who Will Ultimately Snub Russia on the 75th WWII Anniversary?

    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/20...iversary-uk-us

    How petty and stupid; if our Western leaders uplift UKRAINE
    over respecting Russia's WWII contributions, we truly are in a Clown World.

    I'm beginning to wonder if the country whose people instigated the Revolution and ran Soviet, Communist Russia still punch above their weight in most matters, even this simple, respectful, diplomatic one!
    I am fascinated by Russia, this country with frigid weather, hard souls, and hot girls!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nicklcool View Post
    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/20...iversary-uk-us

    How petty and stupid; if our Western leaders uplift UKRAINE
    over respecting Russia's WWII contributions, we truly are in a Clown World.

    I'm beginning to wonder if the country whose people instigated the Revolution and ran Soviet, Communist Russia still punch above their weight in most matters, even this simple, respectful, diplomatic one!
    By May 8th, the airliners will not be flying anywhere, due to fear of spreading the Coronavirus.

    Article whines about Russian "occupation" of Crimea. But they skipped history class: Russia did annex Crimea - in 1763. In my history cl**** we read about the US annexing a lot of territory in the 1700's and 1800's. and the Brits, Belgians, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, French and Germans annexing large swaths of 3 continents.

    Maybe they are still sore about losing the Crimean War in the 1850's - that is, the war when England invaded the Crimea. All the Brits got out of it was six stanzas about "the Brave 600" concerning blundering war tactics, a poem every British and American schoolboy has to memorize.

    If Western leaders can't spare one day to honor the sacrifice of 20,000,000 Russian casualties from WW2 (versus 250,000 US casualties) then they have guilty conscience concerning their present-day (NATO) military activities, and Deep State machinations in Eastern Europe for the past several decades.

    Actually, Tennyson's poem "...Ours is not to reason why..." would be a good historical lesson, but we are still allowing the Deep State to manipulate us.

    Real leaders would greet the 75th anniversary as an opportunity to get together, communicate with each other and agree on something - such as "Fascism is bad." Just building a little international understanding with everyone agreeing with everyone else. But the Deep State's ethics are screwed up, mostly because the Deep State IS fascist.
    Last edited by TheInterocitor; 26-02-2020 at 16:45.
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    Have -you- spoken to your relatives, mother in law, work colleagues about this? does anyone CARE who comes or not? it is a holiday for war veterans and so be it. though one thing one can not deny and no one does, millions of these 25 millions, or was it 30 millions, were sent by Stalin to the Gulags and died there. - s soldier who surrenders and lies is a traitor -. and off to the Gulag they went after thy returned from being POW wherever...THAT also should not be forgotten ab be remembered.
    There is no greater treasure then pleasure....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benedikt View Post
    millions of these 25 millions, or was it 30 millions, were sent by Stalin to the Gulags and died there. - s soldier who surrenders and lies is a traitor -. and off to the Gulag they went after thy returned from being POW wherever...THAT also should not be forgotten ab be remembered.
    Correct. Especially lies about millions in Gulags.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatAndy View Post
    Correct. Especially lies about millions in Gulags.
    The falsehood might be in 25 or 30 million. But it would be really naive to deny 10 million over a quarter century. And that much smaller number is still an outrage on a magnitude that dwarfs most other evils.

    So you can claim “lie” in regard to the specific number. It might have been in truth 9,864,469, or 14,387,203, and not 25 or 30 million at all. But the much bigger fact is that it was still a humongous number that represents an evil so horrifying that it ought to be banned, and never allowed to see the light of day here again.

    Butovo alone is a shame that I’ll put to you that makes the atrocities of Western nations look like kindness. That’s on Stalin and the NKVD, and a Communist Party that totally backed them, even if only out of fear. And yes, on Stalin specifically. Trying to deny Stalin’s definitive role in those evils is deliberate self-deception both of self and of others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post
    The falsehood might be in 25 or 30 million. But it would be really naive to deny 10 million over a quarter century.
    2.4M were sued by political articles of Criminal Code since 1924 to 1954. 680K of them executed by death penalty. The rest is sucked from a finger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatAndy View Post
    2.4M were sued by political articles of Criminal Code since 1924 to 1954. 680K of them executed by death penalty. The rest is sucked from a finger.
    Yes, I know of that claim. It is popular among Stalinists. At the very most, assuming the documentation referred to to be complete and correct, and that it includes ALL documentation ever recorded (which I already don’t believe, but trying to make your case look as good as possible), it only includes officially recorded executions, and does not people who died from cold, hunger, privation, disease untreated due to incarceration. Your idea makes NO sense of the fall of the Soviet Union. If what you imagine were true, it shouldn’t have happened, and Yeltsin would have had no popular support. It was because too many knew that Solzhenitsyn spoke the truth, that Sakharov was no radical exception to normal treatment, that a MASSIVE number, not mere statistics but having names and faces, from Gumilyov to Meyerhold and Mandelshtam, the memory of the Black Marias, the prime downtown apartments emptied by arrest of owners never to return seized by opportunists, and on, and on, and on. The trouble with your whitewashing effort, Andy, is that there is too much to whitewash. You can explain away a few cases as radical exceptions. When the pattern becomes the rule, you can’t. You have to explain EVERYTHING away, and the only people who will believe you then are those who desperately want to.

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    ....( i leave out names because people are still alive) was the Chief engineer of the Transib part that goes to Beijing. Originally they were Russians from Harbin. When construction was done, word got around that it might be better to emigrate. and best far away. one of the prettiest daughters - befriended - an Australian Consular Officer and the whole family got visas to go to Australia. Except .... and his family. he said, i am a railway engineer, -Felix- said we are needed. So he returned. He was tried as an - enemy of the people - -convicted and shot. his wife was left with four kids. but she could not get any work and made a living teaching French and Piano. These were the -only- things, besides being a housewife and mother, she knew. The kids grew up and always tried to keep in contact with -Australia-. To get documents to be able to leave. One day though, and this was already during the time - Kukuruznik- was in power, they got a nice -visit-. And were -strongly advised - not to correspond anymore. it will have for sure consequences. And that it would be better to destroy all written material. People apparently also moved,either away or to a different town, in Australia. And much, much later no contact could be established anymore.
    There is no greater treasure then pleasure....

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    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post
    Yes, I know of that claim. It is popular among Stalinists.
    No. Among people who work with documental basis, not with hystery yelling of juvenile idiots.

    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post
    If what you imagine were true, it shouldn’t have happened, and Yeltsin would have had no popular support.
    You mix warm and soft, comrade. It often happens when you prefer to believe, than to think critically.

    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post
    Solzhenitsyn spoke the truth
    Incorrect, comrade. The TRUTHЪ!

    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post
    and does not people who died from cold, hunger, privation, disease untreated due to incarceration.
    Yes, of course. Small remark - Solzhenitsyn was diagnosed with stomach cancer in the corrective labour camp (he worked at very hard job, in library), and surgery op was done. After this his worthless lying life lasted till almost 90 yo.

    BTW, comrade, why did you mention "atrocities of Western nations" a post earlier?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benedikt View Post
    He was tried as an - enemy of the people - -convicted and shot.
    As all others, for nothing?

    Ben, there were repressions and victims. Between really quilty people and innocent ones. The question is numbers and ratio.
    Last edited by FatAndy; 27-02-2020 at 11:19.
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    In the US, "MeToo" women are seeking redress for the redefined sins of two generations past. The black race industry wants reparations for the sins of 200 years ago. The dead can not be brought to justice, but Germany still thinks itself guilty. Now past injustice is little more than revenge upon today's innocent, a never-ended and fruitless pursuit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FatAndy View Post
    No. Among people who work with documental basis, not with hystery yelling of juvenile idiots.


    You mix warm and soft, comrade. It often happens when you prefer to believe, than to think critically.


    Incorrect, comrade. The TRUTHЪ!


    Yes, of course. Small remark - Solzhenitsyn was diagnosed with stomach cancer in the corrective labour camp (he worked at very hard job, in library), and surgery op was done. After this his worthless lying life lasted till almost 90 yo.

    BTW, comrade, why did you mention "atrocities of Western nations" a post earlier?


    As all others, for nothing?

    Ben, there were repressions and victims. Between really quilty people and innocent ones. The question is numbers and ratio.
    All of your comments here are denial, not refutation. The former is easy.

    But I have come to see that in these complicated issues, there are certain facts among the millions of facts which are of such vast importance that they dwarf the rest, and I call these “meta-facts”. For example, however good, kind, gentle and true adherents of Islam may claim the religion is, it is a meta-fact that the philosophy of Islam, though it did create a civilization that lasted for centuries, it did not create one that people desire to move to and become a part of. Its philosophy did not teach or try to practice universal brotherhood, but only brotherhood of those who joined their religion.

    The Soviet Union collapsed, and by the general will of the people, however much some like you might hate that fact now, and wish to recast it. It is a fact that the subject nations of the USSR sued for independence, and that most, with the exception of Belorus and possibly the Central Asian republics, have no particular desire to restore that relationship. They know too well of Stalin’s Terror, and the deportations, and the Holodomor, and the 1956 Hungary and 1968 Prague uprisings, and that the humorous line in “Kavkazskaya Plennitsa” that “Da zdravstvyet Sovetskii sud, samyi gumanny sud v mire!” really was a joke.

    You can try to characterize all of that as “the hysterical yelling of a juvenile idiot” if you want to, but those general facts are of huge importance. If it were only Solzhenitsyn, you might get away with accusing him of lying. But the facts fly at you from every side, not merely from his pen. There are thousands of sources that back him up, some still living, even.

    It is the внуки жерьв vs the вики палачей. You represent and defend the latter. The American evils are wholly dwarfed by the Russian ones in every way. Russia must face and repent of its past if it is to avoid repeating it, and your resistance substantially raises the likelihood that it will be repeated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheInterocitor View Post
    In the US, "MeToo" women are seeking redress for the redefined sins of two generations past. The black race industry wants reparations for the sins of 200 years ago. The dead can not be brought to justice, but Germany still thinks itself guilty. Now past injustice is little more than revenge upon today's innocent, a never-ended and fruitless pursuit.

    Живи и не считай
    Не требуй повторений
    И трепет птичьих стай
    Считай благословеньем.

    You seem to be suggesting that admitting past evils (those that actually WERE evil) is useless and irrelevant. (I’ll be happy to be corrected on that.) But it is not so. What I think you are right about is that we cannot truly conduct historical justice. We are not God. But where you would be wrong would be in implying that past evils were not evil, and that we should not, or need not admit that they were. That would be a willing moral blindness.

    WAS (past tense) Germany guilty? WAS America guilty of tolerating slavery? Of course. Must they forever try to continue repaying the descendants of victims? No. The only way out of permanent mutual resentment is to try to establish fair and equitable conditions for all now.

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    This is one of a million legitimate repressed voices that the version of a happy, prosperous, and just Soviet Union seeks to deny:
    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/...olubeva-a69357

    The sheer number of stories is truly uncountable. I could pull out the hundreds of published individual stories alone of the New Martyrs of Russia under Lenin and Stalin. Foma magazine has been publishing them for years, and the supply of material is inexhaustible. Calling Solzhenitsyn a liar for reporting what hundreds of thousands of people decidedly reported is deliberate self-deception.

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    [QU. The dead can not be brought to justice, but Germany still thinks itself guilty. Now past injustice is little more than revenge upon today's innocent, a never-ended and fruitless pursuit.


    wrong. The Germans do NOT feel guilty. Because the generation that might have been is mostly not alive anymore. But it is being rammed down every day by certain people, countries and Media that Germany will be guilty still in 1000 years time. -Sippenhaft - is gone withe end of the Aquarell Painter. And why should i feel guilty because Hitler was an Austrian?
    Many of - our - family were soldiers fallen ore got missing in Russia. Do I fell bad towards the Russians? Dont think os, otherwise i would not have married one and worked and live here since over 30 years.
    Unfortunately in both the german and Austrian governments they do not have people who put their foot down and say -enough is enough-. They would be off the political stage very fast... A sad situation indeed.Remembering yes, forgetting not, but have it rammed down the throat every time? for sure not.
    That is why i also think that this -patriotic theater - on Red Square should be presented in a different way.
    There is no greater treasure then pleasure....

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    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post
    The Soviet Union collapsed, and by the general will of the people
    Comrade, you know that it's wrong. Soviet Union was artificially destroyed by the band of juvenile idiots led by principless bastards, who wanted power and property. Why you want to believe fairy tale stories?

    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post
    Calling Solzhenitsyn a liar for reporting what hundreds of thousands of people decidedly reported is deliberate self-deception.
    Ouch, already hundreds of thousands? The TRUTHЪ! of Solzhenitsyn yells about another figures
    Let you determine yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post
    You represent and defend the latter.
    I represent and defend The Common Sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post
    The American evils are wholly dwarfed by the Russian ones in every way.
    Why you again jump to The Blessed West? Freudian slip?

    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post
    Russia must
    Bingo.
    Pls continue the wet sweet dreams.
    Last edited by FatAndy; 28-02-2020 at 13:50.
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