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Thread: Exchanging Current PRP for Perpetual PRP - Procedure

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosstis View Post
    1.

    2. You can apply for perpetual PRP any time. You do not need to wait. There is no legal restriction.
    But! There is one more tricky thing! Your application for the new perpetual PRP may be considered as a completely independent application for PRP not formally connected with the periods of absence under the old PRP. So if you need to go abroad for a long period of time and thus to brake 6 moths rule, you may try to apply for new PRP before the braking the rule, then go abroad for a long time (1 year etc), then come back on visa, then pick up you new PRP which can wait for you for a very long time (this period of waiting is not specified as far as know), then start new life from scratch with new PRP and new counting of periods of absence. This is also not 100% proved. It is only my private opinion which is not based on practice.
    When I applied to convert my 5-year PRP to a perpetual PRP, the inspector told me that when the system becomes fully operational, the process is supposed to take just 7 days.

    When I receive the perpetual PRP, I will ask them whether the in/out clock gets reset, how annual check-ins work, etc., and will post their answers here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xp@ View Post
    When I applied to convert my 5-year PRP to a perpetual PRP, the inspector told me that when the system becomes fully operational, the process is supposed to take just 7 days.

    When I receive the perpetual PRP, I will ask them whether the in/out clock gets reset, how annual check-ins work, etc., and will post their answers here.
    I only can tell what i was told at the OBD in Strogino. The registration of the new,perpetual, PRP will have the same procedure as before. within 7 days of receiving the paper you have to register that at the OBM. procedure as before. and the re registration every year, with that -tear off - slip one receives, will not change. because that is THEIR -proof- that one has been 180 out of 365 day in Russia.
    by the way when asking the inspector, THEY have no news about the new -russian citizenship without any pre conditions- , that is -officially- having to give up your own citizenship first.
    There is no greater treasure then pleasure....

  4. #18
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    [QUOTE=rosstis;1490839]1. a). The amendment with new 6 moth rule was written without any proper logic and methodology of calculation obviously by people who are not high professionals. The idiots who created this unclear rule even has created a new opportunity which may allow to be abroad almost 12 moths! In the new rule the idiots has made the reference to the calendar year (not to the period of time of 365 days) which lasts from 1 Jan - December 31. With this reference you can go abroad in the middle of the calendar year, for example on 29 June 2020, then have fun abroad for nearly 12 months, then return back to Russia on 2 July 2021, and you don’t violate the rule and do not have grounds for cancelling your PRP, provide that you file the annual notice confirming your residence on time!!!
    Also the idiots mentioned 6 months (not 182 days) which nobody officially knows how to count. There is a small chance that only full (complete) calendar months will be considered for calculation of absence necessary for the annulment of PRP. For example, if you go abroad from Russia for the period from 1 January until 30 June, then come back for at least one day in each of the remaining calendar moths: from July until December (for example, visit Russia on 1 July, 1 August etc), in this case there will be no full calendar months of absence which may be will not qualify for absence necessary for the annulment of PRP. But this is not 100% sure. It is only my personal opinion which is not proved on practice yet. So far it is better to plan you trip in such a way as to go abroad from the middle of the calendar year and try to stay in Russia by catching the periods of time at the border of calendar months, e.g., to stay in Russia June 30 – until July 1; August 31-September 1 etc. In this case may be the periods from June 1 until June 29, July 2 until July 31, August 1 until August 30 etc. will be not considered as full (proper) months of absence necessary for the annulment of PRP.

    Thanks.
    I am considering doing a course next year.
    1. If the course starts on 1 Jan and finishes on 31 July (7 months), and I return to Russia for a weekend in May, thereby interrupting the 6 month period, but I will still be out of Russia for a total of 6 months if we add it all up, then this breaks the 6 month rule?
    2. As I understand, with the current 5 year PRP that I hold, as long as I return to Russia once, if only for a day, during a period of absence longer than 6 months, I do no risk losing my PRP.

    If I have understood the above correctly, then I'd rather hold onto what I've got, for now.

  5. #19
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    Hi there
    How long have you been waiting so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by xp@ View Post
    When I applied to convert my 5-year PRP to a perpetual PRP, the inspector told me that when the system becomes fully operational, the process is supposed to take just 7 days.

    When I receive the perpetual PRP, I will ask them whether the in/out clock gets reset, how annual check-ins work, etc., and will post their answers here.

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelindaG View Post
    Hi there
    How long have you been waiting so far?
    I turned in my application on 16 December. When I called yesterday, they said that there is a problem with the computer system that they use to enter new PRPs into the govt database, and that has caused a delay, since they can't hand out PRPs that are not in the database. They said that mine should be ready in early February. They also said that once the system is working again, it will only take 7 days from time of application to time of issuance - when exchanging a current PRP for a perpetual PRP.

  7. #21
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    [QUOTE=BelindaG;1490844]
    Quote Originally Posted by rosstis View Post
    1. a). The amendment with new 6 moth rule was written without any proper logic and methodology of calculation obviously by people who are not high professionals. The idiots who created this unclear rule even has created a new opportunity which may allow to be abroad almost 12 moths! In the new rule the idiots has made the reference to the calendar year (not to the period of time of 365 days) which lasts from 1 Jan - December 31. With this reference you can go abroad in the middle of the calendar year, for example on 29 June 2020, then have fun abroad for nearly 12 months, then return back to Russia on 2 July 2021, and you don’t violate the rule and do not have grounds for cancelling your PRP, provide that you file the annual notice confirming your residence on time!!!
    Also the idiots mentioned 6 months (not 182 days) which nobody officially knows how to count. There is a small chance that only full (complete) calendar months will be considered for calculation of absence necessary for the annulment of PRP. For example, if you go abroad from Russia for the period from 1 January until 30 June, then come back for at least one day in each of the remaining calendar moths: from July until December (for example, visit Russia on 1 July, 1 August etc), in this case there will be no full calendar months of absence which may be will not qualify for absence necessary for the annulment of PRP. But this is not 100% sure. It is only my personal opinion which is not proved on practice yet. So far it is better to plan you trip in such a way as to go abroad from the middle of the calendar year and try to stay in Russia by catching the periods of time at the border of calendar months, e.g., to stay in Russia June 30 – until July 1; August 31-September 1 etc. In this case may be the periods from June 1 until June 29, July 2 until July 31, August 1 until August 30 etc. will be not considered as full (proper) months of absence necessary for the annulment of PRP.

    Thanks.
    I am considering doing a course next year.
    1. If the course starts on 1 Jan and finishes on 31 July (7 months), and I return to Russia for a weekend in May, thereby interrupting the 6 month period, but I will still be out of Russia for a total of 6 months if we add it all up, then this breaks the 6 month rule?
    2. As I understand, with the current 5 year PRP that I hold, as long as I return to Russia once, if only for a day, during a period of absence longer than 6 months, I do no risk losing my PRP.

    If I have understood the above correctly, then I'd rather hold onto what I've got, for now.
    This was possible before 1 November, according to the old 6 month rule (which did not refer to calendar year and which was not cumulative). According to the new cumulative 6-moth rule (which apllies both to old 5-year PRP and new perpetual PRP) it is not possible any more, and in this case probably your PRP will be canceled.

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    [QUOTE=BelindaG;1490844][QUOTE=rosstis;1490839]1. a). The amendment with new 6 moth rule was written without any proper logic and methodology of calculation obviously by people who are not high professionals. The idiots who created this unclear rule e

    since there are all idiots here, wonder what are YOU doing in Russia? must be for sure beyond your level to live and work here. or is it just for the money? and you bear with all the idiots?by the way, the last constitution and a lot of these follow up documents, including Permits, Immigration and the likes, were written, still under President Yeltsin, with e help an guidance by -wester experts-, mainly from the USA. Based what they have there and to suit them...
    There is no greater treasure then pleasure....

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  11. #23
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    [QUOTE=Benedikt;1490853][QUOTE=BelindaG;1490844]
    Quote Originally Posted by rosstis View Post
    1. a). The amendment with new 6 moth rule was written without any proper logic and methodology of calculation obviously by people who are not high professionals. The idiots who created this unclear rule e
    Quote Originally Posted by rosstis View Post

    since there are all idiots here, wonder what are YOU doing in Russia? must be for sure beyond your level to live and work here. or is it just for the money? and you bear with all the idiots?by the way, the last constitution and a lot of these follow up documents, including Permits, Immigration and the likes, were written, still under President Yeltsin, with e help an guidance by -wester experts-, mainly from the USA. Based what they have there and to suit them...
    My friend's father actually wrote the first rules on immigration. He was a FSB general then move to the head of immigration under Yeltsin. He was very pro immigrant and saw the need for new people coming to Russia.
    If you trust the government you obviously failed history class. " George Carlin"

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  13. #24
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    [QUOTE=Benedikt;1490853][QUOTE=BelindaG;1490844]
    Quote Originally Posted by rosstis View Post
    1. a). The amendment with new 6 moth rule was written without any proper logic and methodology of calculation obviously by people who are not high professionals. The idiots who created this unclear rule e
    Quote Originally Posted by rosstis View Post

    since there are all idiots here, wonder what are YOU doing in Russia? must be for sure beyond your level to live and work here. or is it just for the money? and you bear with all the idiots?by the way, the last constitution and a lot of these follow up documents, including Permits, Immigration and the likes, were written, still under President Yeltsin, with e help an guidance by -wester experts-, mainly from the USA. Based what they have there and to suit them...
    Just please compare the 6-moths absence rule before 1 November (the old one) and after (the new one):
    Федеральный закон "О правовом положении иностранных граждан в Российской Федерации" от 25.07.2002 N 115-ФЗ (последняя редакция)

    25 июля 2002 года N 115-ФЗ

    РОССИЙСКАЯ ФЕДЕРАЦИЯ

    ФЕДЕРАЛЬНЫЙ ЗАКОН

    О ПРАВОВОМ ПОЛОЖЕНИИ ИНОСТРАННЫХ ГРАЖДАН
    В РОССИЙСКОЙ ФЕДЕРАЦИИ
    Статья 9. Основания отказа в выдаче либо аннулирования вида на жительство

    1. Вид на жительство иностранному гражданину не выдается, а ранее выданный вид на жительство аннулируется в случае, если данный иностранный гражданин:

    The new Rule after 1 November:
    11) находился за пределами Российской Федерации более шести месяцев суммарно в течение календарного года, за исключением случаев отсутствия возможности покинуть территорию иностранного государства по обстоятельствам, связанным с необходимостью экстренного лечения, тяжелой болезнью данного иностранного гражданина или со смертью его близкого родственника, проживавшего на момент смерти в иностранном государстве, а также случаев нахождения иностранного гражданина за пределами Российской Федерации в связи со служебной необходимостью;
    (пп. 11 в ред. Федерального закона от 02.08.2019 N 257-ФЗ)

    The old Rule before 1 November:
    11) находится за пределами Российской Федерации более шести месяцев.

    Mvd made official clarification of the old rule on its website on 20 January, 2017 explaining that the uninterrupted absence of 6 month is understood:

    Вид на жительство иностранному гражданину аннулируется, если он находится за пределами России больше шести месяцев. Как считается этот срок?
    20 Января 2017 15:53
    В соответствии с пп. 11 п. 1 ст. 9 Федерального закона «О правовом положении иностранных граждан в РФ» от 25.07.2002 года № 115-ФЗ «вид на жительство иностранному гражданину не выдается, а ранее выданный вид на жительство аннулируется, если иностранный гражданин находится за пределами Российской Федерации более шести месяцев».
    В данном случае принимается во внимание непрерывное пребывание за границей.

    https://77.xn--b1aew.xn--p1ai/ms/%D0.../item/9293998/


    The old rule was very simple, clear, easy to understand and to follow and convenient for both the foreigners and the inspectors.
    The foreigners when it was necessary to go abroad for the family and other reasons could do this easily: to go for 6 months, return back for one day, then to go again for 6 months, then do the same as many times as necessary. The only requirement was to file the annual residency form on time. The inspectors did not have to worry about tracing the foreigners for their absence and did not have to bother themselves with the calculations of days of absence. The old rule was working fine for more than 10 years. Almost everyone was happy with this convenient old rule!!
    Then, suddenly, in the new law somebody “very clever” due to some unclear reasons created this inconvenient new “cumulative” rule of absence which nobody knows for sure how to understand and how to count? What for? What was the reason to replace good and clear old rule with bad and unclear new one???
    If the purpose of the new rule was to restrict more the freedom of movement from Russia, then this purpose is not fully reached by this rule because it allows to be abroad even longer time – almost 1 year: you only need to go abroad and come back in the middle of calendar years following one after another..
    Isn’t this new rule not an example of idiotism?!!

  14. #25
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    Many countries require residents be in country six out of 12 consecutive months, qualifying them as tax residents and requiring them to pay taxes on worldwide income, in addition to taxes in the country itself. That's one reason Russia put this rule into effect. That said I agree, the previous regulations favored permanent residents much more than the current ones do.

    I don't follow your logic when you say "this purpose is not fully reached by this rule because it allows to be abroad even longer time – almost 1 year: you only need to go abroad and come back in the middle of calendar years following one after another..."

    How did you come to this conclusion? I'm curious because a friend of mine is asking.

    IN any case, the way I read the current law, coming in for one day a year appears to be grounds for having the residency status revoked. The law says, in English:

    1. A residence permit shall not be issued to a foreign citizen, and a previously issued residence permit shall be canceled if this foreign citizen:

    11) was outside the Russian Federation for more than six months in total during the calendar year

    This is clear to me. During any given calendar year, you cannot travel outside the country for more than six months. At the end of every calendar year, you need to show when you entered and left Russia. The migration officials can now check this info on-line. If they do, and someone is outside the country more than six months, the residency status can be revoked.

    Per this regulation, it also seems clear that prior to applying for permanent residency, the applicant needs to be in the country for six months out of twelve in a calendar year. That's my reading of the law in any event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xt-tsi View Post
    Many countries require residents be in country six out of 12 consecutive months, qualifying them as tax residents and requiring them to pay taxes on worldwide income, in addition to taxes in the country itself. That's one reason Russia put this rule into effect. That said I agree, the previous regulations favored permanent residents much more than the current ones do.

    I don't follow your logic when you say "this purpose is not fully reached by this rule because it allows to be abroad even longer time – almost 1 year: you only need to go abroad and come back in the middle of calendar years following one after another..."

    How did you come to this conclusion? I'm curious because a friend of mine is asking.

    IN any case, the way I read the current law, coming in for one day a year appears to be grounds for having the residency status revoked. The law says, in English:

    1. A residence permit shall not be issued to a foreign citizen, and a previously issued residence permit shall be canceled if this foreign citizen:

    11) was outside the Russian Federation for more than six months in total during the calendar year

    This is clear to me. During any given calendar year, you cannot travel outside the country for more than six months. At the end of every calendar year, you need to show when you entered and left Russia. The migration officials can now check this info on-line. If they do, and someone is outside the country more than six months, the residency status can be revoked.

    Per this regulation, it also seems clear that prior to applying for permanent residency, the applicant needs to be in the country for six months out of twelve in a calendar year. That's my reading of the law in any event.

    I don’t think that the new rule was introduced due to the necessity to make it in compliance with tax residency or any reasons related to the taxation (Just in case the foreigner non-tax resident can be simply charged the tax with a higher rate which is more profitable for the state).
    I think, that the “clever” creators of the new rule did not even have a look at Article 207 of Russian Tax code which has very clear definition with calculation made in calendar days (not in abstract months) and with reference to 12 consecutive months (not the reference to the calendar year):
    Article 207 Tax Code:
    2. Если иное не предусмотрено настоящей статьей, налоговыми резидентами признаются физические лица, фактически находящиеся в Российской Федерации не менее 183 календарных дней в течение 12 следующих подряд месяцев.
    If the creators of the new rule really wanted to make any unification with tax residency status, they would simply make a reference to the rule of the tax resident in the tax code or would simply repeat this rule in the for foreigners. But they did not do this and created their own complicated and unclear rule.
    Regarding your question: “I don't follow your logic when you say "this purpose is not fully reached by this rule because it allows to be abroad even longer time – almost 1 year: you only need to go abroad and come back in the middle of calendar years following one after another..."
    How did you come to this conclusion? I'm curious because a friend of mine is asking”,
    I can show you an example of how it may work:
    1. Your friend stays in Russia for the first six calendar months out of the calendar year 2020 necessary to save PRP from cancelling (Calendar year is the period from 1 January until 31 December. From each 1 January new calendar year starts again and again with its own new PRP calculation period which also starts again and again with the beginning of new year). So he / she stays in Russia from 1 January until 30 June 2020. The legal requirement of 6 months of stay per calendar year 2020 is fulfilled well!!
    2. Your friend goes from Russia to another country for the next 6 calendar moths out of calendar year 2020 + first 6 calendar months of the next calendar year 2021 (which has its own new calculation period from 1 January 2021): from 2 July 2020 until 30 June 2021. Thus, you friend stays abroad uninterruptedly almost 1 year period of time!!
    3. Your friend comes back to Russia on 30 June 2021, files the annual residency form for the year 2020 and continues to stay in Russia during the remaining months out of the year 2021: from 30 June until 31 December, 2021.

    So in this algorithm based on travelling in the middle of calendar years, I think there are no legal grounds for annulment of PRP based on the new rule, because in each of the calendar years 2020 and 2021 the minimum requirement of presence is observed and the absence in each calendar year does not exceed 6 calendar moths!

    If the creators of the new rule borrowed the wording of the rule from the Tax code (absence of 183 out of 12 consecutive months without reference to the “calendar year”), then this algorithm would not be possible. But the creators of the new rule obviously decided that they are more “clever” than the creators of the rule in the Tax code and made their own unique new rule which does not have any wisdom and logical sence at all.

    Please let us know if you see any grounds for annulment of PRP in this algorithm?

    Do you still see any real reasonable logic and not idiotism behind the new rule?

  17. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosstis View Post
    [QUO
    If the purpose of the new rule was to restrict more the freedom of movement from Russia, then this purpose is not fully reached by this rule because it allows to be abroad even longer time – almost 1 year: you only need to go abroad and come back in the middle of calendar years following one after another..
    Isn’t this new rule not an example of idiotism?!!

    it makes me wonder why would one want a PRP for Russia when not living and working here most of the year?
    There is no greater treasure then pleasure....

  18. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benedikt View Post
    it makes me wonder why would one want a PRP for Russia when not living and working here most of the year?
    The benefit to get in/out of Russia without the hassle from getting visa's?

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    Duplicate post, please delete it, Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benedikt View Post
    it makes me wonder why would one want a PRP for Russia when not living and working here most of the year?
    As an example, I know a person who has PRP in Russia, has been working for many years in Russia, paying taxes to Russian budget, paying payments to Russian pension fund who intends to stay in Russia till the rest of the life and recieve later Russia pension and who does not want to obtain Russian citizenship due to the requirement to write a letter of resignation of the motherland citizenship. The person needs to go for long period (more then six moths, may be for more then a year) to the motherland country to look after old parents who are heavily ill. Illness of parents or relatives is not a good reason to save PRP from cancelling according to the new rule.
    Thus, the new rule can turn the life of this person into nightmare: the PRP will probably be cancelled, the opportunity to receive Russian pension based on the earlier work in Russia will probably be lost. To get new PRP after cancellation of the old PRP is a nightmare and very hard and long work.
    So the creators of new idiotic 6 months cumulative rule created artificially lots of problem to such persons. What for? Why the PRP owner can not go abroad for longer then 6 moths period due to the family reasons? What for to replace old good and clear rule with the stupid new one?

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