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Thread: - Vegetarian wines - why on earth that?

  1. #31
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    [QUOTE=rusmeister;1489097]This does absolutely nothing to explain religious fasting. Indeed Rus, my reply has nothing to do with Religion or religious fasting. or qhy Christians are fasting or not eating meat on Friday.
    because if doing it for religious reasons, well, the more one reads, the more confusing it is. and because i am out of the (age) range for Catholics, i theoretically do not need to fast at all anymore? https://www.learnreligions.com/rules...tinence-542167
    these -laws- were made by men, and to me that is for the birds...
    There is no greater treasure then pleasure....

  2. #32
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    Duplicate post
    Last edited by rusmeister; 13-09-2019 at 07:16. Reason: Duplicate post

  3. #33
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    [QUOTE=Benedikt;1489103]
    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post
    This does absolutely nothing to explain religious fasting. Indeed Rus, my reply has nothing to do with Religion or religious fasting. or qhy Christians are fasting or not eating meat on Friday.
    because if doing it for religious reasons, well, the more one reads, the more confusing it is. and because i am out of the (age) range for Catholics, i theoretically do not need to fast at all anymore? https://www.learnreligions.com/rules...tinence-542167
    these -laws- were made by men, and to me that is for the birds...
    This seems to me like saying “Dieting for health reasons, well, the more one reads, the more confusing it is.”
    That makes no sense. If explanations of fasting “confuse” you, you could ask questions about the parts that confuse you.

    As to Canon 1252, well, it’s Catholic, and strange and alien to me. Maybe by their lights you don’t have to. It’s the first I’ve heard of it. One of the central differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy is the extreme legalism of the former. I can see why the Catholic explanations create a veritable forest of parsing and codifying the letter of the law. In Orthodoxy, emphasis is given entirely to the spirit of the law. Canons are tools, that may or may not be appropriate to apply, and are by no means always absolute laws that must be observed in all cases.

    In these religions, men certainly say and teach things. How could it be otherwise? Where do you find God telling everyone directly all the time what teaching is? The question, again, is whether the institution is what it claims to be. If the institution is indeed instituted by God and led by the Holy Spirit, then it is irrelevant that men wrote down rules. If the men are expressing the spirit of what the institution has always taught, then they are not merely “making things up” in order to gain power over others, but are really trying to help you have a better spiritual life. You seem to disbelieve that the Catholic Church is what it says it is, which would make any “Catholicism” on your part purely nominal, in name only. (I do say “seem”, it’s what comes across.)

  4. #34
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    You seem to disbelieve that the Catholic Church is what it says it is, which would make any “Catholicism” on your part purely nominal, in name only. (I do say “seem”, it’s what comes across.)[/QUOTE]

    Rus as i said before and also wrote here, i have no problems with HIM. but problems what is happening on earth here. HE has only preached, not written dow na single word. not put down in writing a single law. all that was done by men who put things together the way it suited them. and one was Kaiser Konstantine. just because he said - we do it this way because i am the Kaiser and therefore i am right and therefore i can say- And all the others are heretics and liars and what they wrote is not true.... this is BS to me.
    There is no greater treasure then pleasure....

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benedikt View Post
    You seem to disbelieve that the Catholic Church is what it says it is, which would make any “Catholicism” on your part purely nominal, in name only. (I do say “seem”, it’s what comes across.)
    Rus as i said before and also wrote here, i have no problems with HIM. but problems what is happening on earth here. HE has only preached, not written dow na single word. not put down in writing a single law. all that was done by men who put things together the way it suited them. and one was Kaiser Konstantine. just because he said - we do it this way because i am the Kaiser and therefore i am right and therefore i can say- And all the others are heretics and liars and what they wrote is not true.... this is BS to me.
    So....how do you know that what “HE” said (presuming you mean Christ) got accurately preserved while everything else, as you believe, got made up?

    So you’re saying He didn’t institute any Church, but just came to say nice things and get killed?

    You reference Constantine a lot. Sounds like the kind of informing one gets from Dan Brown, not serious study of Church history. It’s incredibly easy to prove that Constantine did not have nearly as much effect on things as you imagine. It involves knowing what preceded the Edict of Milan, specifically, the reign of Diocletian and its effect on the Christian community of the time, and grasping that it was many of these same persecuted bishops, at least some of whom doubtless limped, had one eye, or whatever form of torture that at least some of them had born up under who showed up to the great Council. They were men (and hundreds of them) who had not been cowed by Diocletian, and certainly weren’t going to be cowed by Constantine. The idea that Constantine ordered them around and reshaped the Church in his own image is nonsense, and shows a gaping ignorance of that basic fact. And that’s just one point.

    If you’re wrong on Constantine’s effect on the Church (as many are), you might have to rethink other things as well. Men who choose torture and death for the sake of the truth tend NOT to “put things down the way it suits them”. The single biggest fact that you can’t explain away is the Christian martyrs. Everything we know about psychology tells us that people do not choose death to defend what they know to be a lie, nor do they choose torture and death for the sake of worldly power or wealth, and that the probability of thousands of people falling for the same delusion is essentially zero. So we are looking at people neither deluded nor lying. Logically, that means that they were speaking truth.

    The double standard of deciding that Scripture got rewritten every decade or every generation, while treating all other texts from antiquity as being reliably what the author wrote does not hold up well. How do you know what Julius Caesar said, or if he even existed? Why do you believe that Plato wrote Plato? Or that we have the actual words that Homer, Sophocles, Herodotus wrote? People who claim that Scripture was constantly rewritten do not apply that standard to the rest of the ancient texts that we have.

    Until I was 38, repeated ideas I had gotten from others, often poorly thought-out ideas. What I’m saying, Ben, is that the ideas you express here are in that category. Poorly thought-out borrowed ideas from others that don’t withstand serious examination. And I only sketched a couple of many bases on which those ideas fall apart - it could be written out in thesis form, and has been, only people here complain that they don’t want to read long text.

    You have to let go of the idea that Constantine changed and falsified the Church, and begin to seriously re-examine the idea of legitimacy of ancient texts, if you want to pretend to have a valid opinion.

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