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Thread: - Vegetarian wines - why on earth that?

  1. #16
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    Rus, you seem to glaze over the parts you don't have a cut and paste answer for. Also, your insight just seems to be generic astrology type predictions or maybe you just write like that cuz you are talking to yourself and trying to convince yourself of something. I don't know. Honestly, it is kinda weird sometimes.

    My nanny is not only Orthodox but volunteers all of her free time in the church, so we pretty much are quite aware of what the priest says on this or that and also when we can eat certain foods and why. I have to tell you, whether you like it or not, you are vegan, which is even worse than vegetarian. At least you aren't a militant eco-warrier out to save the world by denying others their choice to freely choose.

    I agree with you on many things and enjoy reading your posts however, so don't let my negativity get you down.

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    As far as I understand, Orthodox of all stripes have been vegetarion for ages and it isn't a new trend. A similar but different situation in the Near and Far East. So it would seem to me that you saying a no-meat diet is a new thing and Chesterton was some visionary regarding this topic is, well, ignorant.



    i think eating meat or not has nothing to do with religion or faith as such.( i am not talking about the Asian religions) even - back then - the rich people of any faith had more meat (hunting for the poor was not allowed...) and the poor slobs ate mostly gruel and -green stuff-. while it also was a staple for the rich, they had at least meat to - pimp- the table. and obvious salt, pepper, and other spices. that were worth their weight in gold.. but the rich and poor had fasting periods, up to 200 days in the year. Not for the clerics of course. anything that swum was considered - fish- so they had Nutria, Beaver and the likes on their tables...
    There is no greater treasure then pleasure....

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  5. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by americaninmoscow View Post
    Rus, you seem to glaze over the parts you don't have a cut and paste answer for. Also, your insight just seems to be generic astrology type predictions or maybe you just write like that cuz you are talking to yourself and trying to convince yourself of something. I don't know. Honestly, it is kinda weird sometimes.

    My nanny is not only Orthodox but volunteers all of her free time in the church, so we pretty much are quite aware of what the priest says on this or that and also when we can eat certain foods and why. I have to tell you, whether you like it or not, you are vegan, which is even worse than vegetarian. At least you aren't a militant eco-warrier out to save the world by denying others their choice to freely choose.

    I agree with you on many things and enjoy reading your posts however, so don't let my negativity get you down.
    Having an Orthodox nanny is no guarantee of having good, let alone the best understandings of Orthodox teaching. And any given priest could be off the rails on something; being an Orthodox priest is no guarantee by itself that one is teaching right teaching. I don't know what you have heard, and can't confirm whether it is in fact Orthodox teaching or only one woman's limited and mistaken understanding.

    If you let me know what you think I glazed over I could try to address it. I don't think I have anything to evade. I may wish to cut what I think the real points of difference are, but I despise evasion of good questions.

    I agree that vegan is worse than vegetarian. But a vegan, by definition, cannot be a meat eater, or eat any animal products. I assure you that most of the time, I enjoy a good steak or turkey, and generally take milk in my coffee. Telling me I am what I am quite sure I am not based on obvious definition is absurd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post


    But a vegan, by definition, cannot be a meat eater, or eat any animal products. I assure you that most of the time, I enjoy a good steak or turkey, and generally take milk in my coffee.
    All things in balance. /Unexpected Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post
    Having an Orthodox nanny is no guarantee of having good, let alone the best understandings of Orthodox teaching. And any given priest could be off the rails on something; being an Orthodox priest is no guarantee by itself that one is teaching right teaching. I don't know what you have heard, and can't confirm whether it is in fact Orthodox teaching or only one woman's limited and mistaken understanding.


    Ok, can't trust nanny and can't believe any given priest.

    So you are the sole arbitrator of what is Orthodox and what is not. How amusing. And arrogant. And somewhat sexist/misogynistic, as if an elderly woman (or any given priest) could possibly know or understand as much as you.

    Tell us big brain, how many published works on anything Orthodox have you had? Are you an actual priest? Have you ever had ANY formal training in the Russian Orthodox Church? Have you ever gone on any pilgrimages? Or at the very least, volunteered your time helping the Church in any way? Do you have any skin in the game at all?

    Or are you just here to talk down to those whom you feel are your lesser?

    Today's word is brought to you by the letter H. Humility.

  8. #21
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    @Rus,

    Here is an idea:

    Both Expat and the Moscow Times desperately need original content.

    You speak/write English and seemingly know enough and are well positioned being an American in pod-Moscovia to do social commentary on the Russian Orthodox Church and answer any questions people may have.

    Maybe you could be the Michele Birdy(sp?) of religion. Her articles are really really well written, so the bar is pretty high, but she was able to bundle past articles into a beautiful book that is sold in bookstores throughout the world.

    Seriously, why not?

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  10. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by americaninmoscow View Post
    Ok, can't trust nanny and can't believe any given priest.

    So you are the sole arbitrator of what is Orthodox and what is not. How amusing. And arrogant. And somewhat sexist/misogynistic, as if an elderly woman (or any given priest) could possibly know or understand as much as you.

    Tell us big brain, how many published works on anything Orthodox have you had? Are you an actual priest? Have you ever had ANY formal training in the Russian Orthodox Church? Have you ever gone on any pilgrimages? Or at the very least, volunteered your time helping the Church in any way? Do you have any skin in the game at all?

    Or are you just here to talk down to those whom you feel are your lesser?

    Today's word is brought to you by the letter H. Humility.
    This is a pretty good example of twisting my words to say what I definitely didnít say.
    The only thing I actually said was that people are not made into unquestionable authorities merely by claiming to be Orthodox, going to church, or even being a priest. Anyoneís claims can be questioned, and answered, by inquiring into whether it is what the Church has always taught or not. That takes some work, and time. Fact-checking. Confirmation that any given claim of teaching is actually confirmed in the consensus of the saints and fathers of the Church. Whether it clicks with everything else or not.

    Judging only by your claim that we are vegan in principle, youíre not getting good or straight information - or else you are REALLY misunderstanding what you are getting. I am inclined to think the latter, judging by your lack of interest in getting straight what I am saying (which is a more favorable assessment of your nanny and her priest as well). Since I donít know exactly what they have said, I canít say for sure.

    Also, you seem to have this idea that me thinking myself right makes me ďpridefulĒ, as if I thought I was a better man than you (I donít) and somehow lacks humility. You think yourself right on many things, and donít think yourself prideful: you are just convinced that you really know something well enough to be certain of it. (I hope) You donít think yourself better than me just because you may know some facts or details, in your own professional field, for example, that I may not know. It would not be ďhumbleĒ of you to pretend you werenít sure of something you really are sure of and have good reason to be.

    One does not need to be professional clergy in the Orthodox Church to properly learn the Orthodox Faith. It takes lots of time, and itís a good idea for new converts to focus on taking things in rather than spewing them out. It takes years to get some things; itís a lifelong learning process.

    Have I ever volunteered? Gone on pilgrimages? Put my money where my mouth is? Yes. Do I think that makes me ďgoodĒ or ďholy enoughĒ? No.

    Iím not going to roll over and play dead just because you have doubts and skepticism about faith. Itís a normal thing to experience, just as it is a normal thing for an atheist or agnostic to experience doubts about his own choice of faith. (And if I am wrong, Iíd rather be Christian and wrong, than atheist and wrong.) And Iím not going to throw personal insults at you, even though I think your ideas wrong and may kick them in ways I think appropriate. Youíre not so different from me, in the end, though Iím an American in the Moscow oblast rather than in Moscow.

  11. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by americaninmoscow View Post
    @Rus,

    Here is an idea:

    Both Expat and the Moscow Times desperately need original content.

    You speak/write English and seemingly know enough and are well positioned being an American in pod-Moscovia to do social commentary on the Russian Orthodox Church and answer any questions people may have.

    Maybe you could be the Michele Birdy(sp?) of religion. Her articles are really really well written, so the bar is pretty high, but she was able to bundle past articles into a beautiful book that is sold in bookstores throughout the world.

    Seriously, why not?
    Good question.
    The Moscow Times has a strong editorial slant against the Church to begin with. Their owners want to paint everyone in it as part of a power-grubbing structure focused on comfort and good things in this world. They’ll gladly post anything negative they get. They’d never publish anything by Schmemann or Men’. They’d even only publish something by Kuraev if it happens to be critical of the Church somehow. They would react to articles by me much like you are reacting. They have a prejudiced bias, and it is seriously unfavorable to the Church. They forget the basic truth that, in finding evils in the Church, the evils are much more so in the world without. If you find one drunken priest causing an accident, I’ll find 50 or 100 politicians, businessmen, schoolteachers doing the same thing, and worse. The evils are there, all right, and they’re evil, because that’s what sin, our broken relationship with God, is. And you can’t escape it in the Church, because you (and everyone else) bring it in with you. What the Church does is teach and help with fighting it (used to be called “repentance”, Greek “metanoia”, a determined change of heart and mind). It is a hospital for people who realize they are sick, not a club of holy people. They don’t think they’re better than you. The ones that really do it can see that they are worse than you, and that their sins help justify you not believing, and they/we are sorry.

    The MT owners don’t want people to hear that. The short reason as to why is that people realize that the Gospel requires that we all personally decide to change our lives (repent) and learn to fight against things we were once OK with, our drunkenness, gluttony, pornography, anger against people who offended or betrayed us, laziness, selfishness, etc. People don’t want to do that. We want the John Lennon “Imagine” version of heaven without any God expecting us to change our ways and start living as we should. We want everybody else to be good, but we want a pass for ourselves on some things, and woe betide anyone who tells us the truth we want to pretend we don’t know!

  12. #24
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    You talk A Lot.

    Short answer, no credentials. Not a priest. No formal training. Just an avid reader and big thinker.

    My cousins grew up in Portland, Oregon. My aunt was a pt bookkeeper at a local redneck bar, my great aunt would cook there some times. It was basically a second home for that family. I visited my cousin there some months back. It was noon. I was driving, so I didn't drink, but the bar was packed and the beer flowing. They asked what I was doing and how I made a living. Turns out the bar patrons, who were older than me, and were all apparently there all day, everyday, were all some kinds of world renowned experts on something and could all tell me how to run my biz better than me. Who wouldda think it?
    Last edited by americaninmoscow; 10-09-2019 at 13:56.

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  14. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by americaninmoscow View Post
    You talk A Lot.

    Short answer, no credentials. Not a priest. No formal training. Just an avid reader and big thinker.

    My cousins grew up in Portland, Oregon. My aunt was a pt bookkeeper at a local redneck bar, my great aunt would cook there some times. It was basically a second home for that family. I visited my cousin there some months back. It was noon. I was driving, so I didn't drink, but the bar was packed and the beer flowing. They asked what I was doing and how I made a living. Turns out the bar patrons, who were older than me, and were all apparently there all day, everyday, were all some kinds of world renowned experts on something and could all tell me how to run my biz better than me. Who wouldda think it?
    In the Church, you get your credentials when you die. The biggest ones go to the martyrs, people who, unlike Muslim suicide bombers, donít kill anyone else, but accept death rather than renounce the truth. I donít rank even close.

    The Church is not a thing where priests are the professionals who know everything, and laity are stupid sheep, as you seem to think. There are all kinds, among both clergy and laity. If you try to live the life of the Church, eventually, youíll learn something. I imagine your nanny probably has, and think most likely you just read some things she said wrong.

    To know about the Church, you have to BE in the Church and try to live its life. You canít know it from the outside, and outside sources are either going to get it wrong or flat-out lie to you. At first, youíll find a ton of amazing things you never expected to find. Later, you might well find disappointment that most people in the Church are not in fact living like saints, and some more like the devil. Finally, you might begin to learn how much you yourself live like the devil, and how much we all kid ourselves about how good we are. If you do, it right, you may start getting some things in your life that you never used to think were problems, but came to realize that they actually are, under some control. And that wonít be the end of it.

    So yeah, being told what the Church is by people outside of it is a lot like your experience at the bar.

  15. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post

    Orthodox are NOT "vegetarian". Yes, we have PERIODS of fasting in which we observe (or at least are SUPPOSED to observe) what you would call a vegan diet, among other things. But we deny veganism and principled teetotalism by turning around and feasting with meat and wine.
    Rus, I'm afraid you are mistaken about this.

    Why do Catholics and Orthodox people fast during Lent, and on Fridays?
    Why is it OK to eat meat sometimes (and imbibe in alcohol, BTW) but with, for example, the 7th commandment, we cannot follow it only sometimes? (That would be something, to be allowed to cheat on your wife at all times except Fridays and during Lent!)

    Why did the Romans (and other ancient leaders) allow Christians to continue practicing their faith, instead of murdering them all?

    That last question is the key one, and someone whom I began reading recently and whom I trust quite a lot mentioned that the texts of the modern Bible were changed to allow the eating of meat and drinking of alcohol, to satisfy various kings and leaders of that time, so that the religion could still be practiced.

    Might sound"kooky" but it's equally strange to assume the Bible was never edited nefariously over so many years. And pretty naive to think that a religion which says we should avoid certain sins during Lent to become closer to God, but then it's OK to commit them the rest of the year, has not been compromised.

    And I say all this as a lifelong Catholic who attended Sunday school, got Confirmed, got married in a Catholic Church- the whole lot.

    At the very least you'll have to admit that americaninmoscow's comment (that you as an Orthodox believer are closer to being a vegetarian than you think) can only be dismissed out of hand if one wishes to be intellectually lazy about the debate!

    I'll also take this chance to let all my fellow expats know that I really hope you can give up alcohol in your lives!! You'll save so much money, no more sweaty, tired, forgettable nights, no more poison in your body!
    And you might even want to try vegetarianism (not veganism)! Just try it for like a month, see if your body feels better-maybe your cholesterol will go down, you'll feel "lighter," maybe you won't feel so tired all the time. One thing's for sure, you'll *never* get stinky morning breath again!!! (Except when you eat garlic or onions). That was one of the amazing and wholly unexpected side effects of this lifestyle choice! I don't even know how it came about- maybe it was rotting animal carcasses in my guts that always caused the bad breath!?

    In any case, you've got nothing to lose by trying it for a few weeks, just to see how you feel-you can think of it like trying a new exercise routine or a new diet where you give up dessert for a month!

    You can also ignore all of that and do none of this, of course! I only wrote this last part of my post in case there are others out there thinking of trying this lifestyle change, but haven't yet because they get constant negative feedback from friends, coworkers, and the MSM!
    I am fascinated by Russia, this country with frigid weather, hard souls, and hot girls!

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  17. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicklcool View Post
    Rus, I'm afraid you are mistaken about this.

    Why do Catholics and Orthodox people fast during Lent, and on Fridays?
    Why is it OK to eat meat sometimes (and imbibe in alcohol, BTW) but with, for example, the 7th commandment, we cannot follow it only sometimes? (That would be something, to be allowed to cheat on your wife at all times except Fridays and during Lent!)

    Why did the Romans (and other ancient leaders) allow Christians to continue practicing their faith, instead of murdering them all?

    That last question is the key one, and someone whom I began reading recently and whom I trust quite a lot mentioned that the texts of the modern Bible were changed to allow the eating of meat and drinking of alcohol, to satisfy various kings and leaders of that time, so that the religion could still be practiced.

    Might sound"kooky" but it's equally strange to assume the Bible was never edited nefariously over so many years. And pretty naive to think that a religion which says we should avoid certain sins during Lent to become closer to God, but then it's OK to commit them the rest of the year, has not been compromised.

    And I say all this as a lifelong Catholic who attended Sunday school, got Confirmed, got married in a Catholic Church- the whole lot.

    At the very least you'll have to admit that americaninmoscow's comment (that you as an Orthodox believer are closer to being a vegetarian than you think) can only be dismissed out of hand if one wishes to be intellectually lazy about the debate!

    I'll also take this chance to let all my fellow expats know that I really hope you can give up alcohol in your lives!! You'll save so much money, no more sweaty, tired, forgettable nights, no more poison in your body!
    And you might even want to try vegetarianism (not veganism)! Just try it for like a month, see if your body feels better-maybe your cholesterol will go down, you'll feel "lighter," maybe you won't feel so tired all the time. One thing's for sure, you'll *never* get stinky morning breath again!!! (Except when you eat garlic or onions). That was one of the amazing and wholly unexpected side effects of this lifestyle choice! I don't even know how it came about- maybe it was rotting animal carcasses in my guts that always caused the bad breath!?

    In any case, you've got nothing to lose by trying it for a few weeks, just to see how you feel-you can think of it like trying a new exercise routine or a new diet where you give up dessert for a month!

    You can also ignore all of that and do none of this, of course! I only wrote this last part of my post in case there are others out there thinking of trying this lifestyle change, but haven't yet because they get constant negative feedback from friends, coworkers, and the MSM!
    *Sigh* Iím not mistaken. In fact, your own words indicate that you are not even really clear on why Catholics fast, and thatís without dealing with the considerable differences between Catholic and Orthodox theology, which produce different atmospheres and assumptions.

    It is not intellectually lazy to ask what a vegan is. I do not always consider dictionaries authoritative, but if we do accept a standard dictionary as authoritative in this case, then we find

    vegan (n.)
    1944, from vegetable (n.) + -an; coined by English vegetarian Donald Watson (1910-2005) to distinguish those who abstain from all animal products (eggs, cheese, etc.) from those who merely refuse to eat the animals.
    https://www.etymonline.com/word/vegan#etymonline_v_4674


    In addition, I would insist that, applied as describing a permanent characteristic, it only applies legitimately to one who ALWAYS abstains from animal products. So while Orthodox observe (or at least, are supposed to observe) a vegan diet two days a week (as Catholics used to do before Vatican 2), we are NOT vegan in that sense.
    Charge of intellectual laziness - thrown out.

    Now it IS permissible to voluntarily and individually choose to be vegan, as it is permissible to voluntarily be a pacifist. What is not permissible is telling everyone else that they must be, that it is Church teaching for all. Itís not, for either Catholics or Orthodox.

    So it looks like, being a confirmed lifelong Catholic (which I have no problem with, even though I think Catholicism is in error; some of my best friends are Catholics), you are asking questions that you honestly don't know the answers to, and have never availed yourself of the Catholic catechism and a knowledgeable priest which would answer your questions. In addition, your question about why ancient rulers didnít murder all Christians is a muddled question, with set assumptions and a presupposed answer. It doesnít pose the facts and understandings clearly regarding who did and did not murder Christians at which point in history and why in a vast variety of cases.

    I can answer your questions, though my answers would necessarily have an Orthodox slant; I have a good idea of the Catholic view, and that it is not so very different, but wouldnít claim to be an authoritative Catholic source (Iím sure I could find authoritative Catholic sources). And it would be more appropriate as a separate thread, I think.

    And your assumptions about the Bible, while not kooky, are based heavily on Dan Brown-esque ideas, and not on Biblical scholarship. The assumptions are understandable because in any purely human institution, such manipulation would be expected. And thatís how you evidently de facto treat the Catholic Church - as a purely human institution, which is a position of disbelief in the Catholic Church. That is the upshot of your questions about fasting and ideas about Scripture.

    I do think the Catholic Church is in error, but I can defend what is good and right about it.

    I am sure that living a life without wine and meat may have some positive effects on the body, though I think it debatable. But I am sure that, as a principled position, it at least tends to be bad for the soul. Both puritanism and paganism are extremes of error, and that position leans toward the puritan error. Intemperance is a danger for the pagan who does not restrict his desires, but spiritual pride is the danger for the puritan.

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  19. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicklcool View Post

    Why do Catholics and Orthodox people fast during Lent, and on Fridays?
    My understanding, is that it is not about sacrifice or suffering. It is about exercising your will, your will power to not do something you would rather do. An exercise in abstinence (not sexual abstinence but the broader meaning). This can then translate to having the will to resist sin.
    If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough...

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    why do - we - still fast during lent? one should rather go back in history and one will find out. when -man- was a hunter and gatherer, in fall the pickled, stored, smoked, preserved meat, fish, berries and what else they could find. but come February,March and April stores were indeed running low. special when the winter was strong. so the only way to tidy them over these lean times was to stretch out what ever stores they had ans make do with what was there.
    the church brothers had it far easier. they brewed beer, it was an allowed drink. and during the fasting period they brewed even a special strong beer. they just declared everything that swims under water, nutria, beaver and the likes as - fish -. and had still plenty to eat.
    the poor slob farmer never was allowed to hunt and had no access to all that. for him it was - fasting - indeed. hoping the new harvest, or berries or mushrooms or ANYTHING edible and eatable will be available soon.
    There is no greater treasure then pleasure....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benedikt View Post
    why do - we - still fast during lent? one should rather go back in history and one will find out. when -man- was a hunter and gatherer, in fall the pickled, stored, smoked, preserved meat, fish, berries and what else they could find. but come February,March and April stores were indeed running low. special when the winter was strong. so the only way to tidy them over these lean times was to stretch out what ever stores they had ans make do with what was there.
    the church brothers had it far easier. they brewed beer, it was an allowed drink. and during the fasting period they brewed even a special strong beer. they just declared everything that swims under water, nutria, beaver and the likes as - fish -. and had still plenty to eat.
    the poor slob farmer never was allowed to hunt and had no access to all that. for him it was - fasting - indeed. hoping the new harvest, or berries or mushrooms or ANYTHING edible and eatable will be available soon.
    This does absolutely nothing to explain religious fasting. If I try to apply the idea to the conversation at hand, it looks like it is trying to explain AWAY religious fasting, and without dealing with the idea that Bydand briefly expressed, which would make it irreligious gibberish.

    Anyone familiar with the idea of economia in Christian fasting would know that the rules are flexible, and that it is the principle that matters. Those who are sick (or who fasting would sicken), or really need more than a usual amount of energy for heavy work, or pregnant women, may be forbidden to fast, or given a different path of abstention. It can wind up being very individualistic, though it must insist on some effort at asceticism. It certainly never was established or done "because there wasn't enough food anyway" as your idea implies.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_(religion)

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