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Thread: choosing to build a house on plot of land, Ruza, west of Moscow.

  1. #31
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    I can see a very nice picture of a log house then it leads me to his facebook page of no relevance. At a guess the picture is a dream log house and very expensive to build. Nice picture Benedict. What do think the whole cost will be? log2.jpg

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    [QUOTE=johnsimpson;1488261]I can see a very nice picture of a log house then it leads me to his facebook page of no relevance. At a guess the picture is a dream log house and very expensive to build. Nice picture Benedict. What do think the whole cost will be?


    as you can see the link is from facebook. i think the best would be to contact the person directly. alone from the thickness of the logs and beams it for sure does not look something -slapdash- put together. and before i stick my head out and say somethign about the price, i rather say nothing... this is the link to Olegs site,https://www.facebook.com/olegkovalpr...type=3&theater, i also asked what it did cost. lets see what the answer will be.
    There is no greater treasure then pleasure....

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsimpson View Post
    Our plot of land is co-op owned so no problem with road clearing etc. In regards to gas, no gas, but there is electricity.
    Look into the cost of heated flooring, and what is a must thing to have since you haven't got gas(not just for back up in case of a power cut), get decent fireplace that will work as your main heat source in winter.
    Last edited by Judge; 03-07-2019 at 22:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge View Post
    Look into the cost of heated flooring, and what is a must thing to have since you haven't got gas(not just for back up in case of a power cut), get decent fireplace that will work as your main heat source in winter.
    on all the dachas i have been over the years more or less each and everyone had a wood burning stove in the kitchen. some a big one some a smaller one. but each owner said, one never knows what will happen. but wood will be always available. a sensible comment...
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsimpson View Post
    You are getting confused with two links and two option I gave. One is for a timber frame house and within the package yes there is rockwool insulation, internal doors, wood interior panelling on walls, ceiling and floor. The second option for logs and yes there is a set calculator for different options on the thickness of those logs and whether or not they are pre-machine finished which is the dearest option. Yes, the logs need to settle for a year before continuing the second stage and will have a temporary roof. On adding the attractive traditional lookin tiled roof and with double glazing rather than standard windows the budget price I now realise will be $40,000 perhaps a little more. Of course when you consider bathroom suites, running water, fitted kitchen etc, the budget may well run into $50,000. i suggest you read both sites as they are well written, even if you read it in google translation it is pretty good. Timber-frame: http:////new.homgart.com/catalog/
    Log house: http://teremwood.ru
    I admit I didn't look in detail at the sites, just glanced at them. I thought it was a kleeny brus' (solid engineered / glued wood beams), but I misunderstood.

    I think I now understand what the Homgart approach is like; looks to me like just a modified wood frame, using thick dried wood on the inside instead of drywall. I have some modest doubts about it - mainly whether the walls are sufficiently airsealed inside and adjustments after the fact - drywall can be pretty readily patched and sealed and wouldn't be reliant on the wood being perfectly flat and grooves matching etc. But if really well made wood beams and quality installation, could work fine. Balance that against long-term that more expensive to make modifications, etc. I'd still likelhy prefer this to the log beams approach, personal gut feeling only.

    An additional comment: consider carefully in plan what I think is often a mistake in dachaland, trying to maximise interior space by having no cold attic. Roof construction important, the part of roof between heated space and the exterior roof panels must be cold to work in this climate. In past, attic would be cold, you'd insulate and seal very well the floor of the attic, and make sure there is sufficient airflow to keep the attic cold in winter. It's relatively easy to put extra insualtion in the attic, and also to go around and find/check/fix any gaps in air getting into attic.

    (Note hot air rises and hence heat is mostly lost to attic/roof, hence extra insulation more important here than in walls)

    Try to make the attic a living space, you have to do the same thing within the roof construction - extra insulation, a gap between the roof exterior and the insulation, no mistakes, no way to add extra insulation later (not easily), no easy way to seal up air gaps. If you really want to have that extra living space, make sure the roof is very high quality - don't skimp.

    Also: nice fancy roofs look cool. But keep it as simple as possible, there's a reason country houses typically just had a v-form roof (two pitched sides), with no dormers and skylights and matching wings, etc: it's because that way snowmelt doesn't meet at corners, refreeze and cause ice dams, and water just runs off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Judge View Post
    Look into the cost of heated flooring, and what is a must thing to have since you haven't got gas(not just for back up in case of a power cut), get decent fireplace that will work as your main heat source in winter.
    Heated flooring can be quite a bit more expensive. If I were to do this, I'd put money into heated floors in the few rooms you spend most time in (kitchen and living room). Everyone does this for bathrooms, personally I don't spend as much time in those. Note: electric heated floors are mainly for tiled areas, not wood (although possible). Since wood generally feels warmer to the touch, that's usually okay. Insulate under the wood (and especially between any cement and the floor).

    Wood heat a great option, but make sure to get one with sealed doors - open fireplaces are worse than useless. Wood stove or a 'topka' (the firebox of a wood stove with the chimney/brick built around it) only. (Or a traditional Russian pechka).

    From some experience with these: everyone wants the nice big glass door, they look great. But for most comfort from a wood stove or closed fireplace, you want as much thermal mass as possible (brick, soapstone, whatever). You run your fires hot, and short (modest sized to not ruin the firebox). Don't do the long smoldering fire thing.

    Brick and the right types of stone absorb the heat and release it slowly. The heating feel comes more from radiant heat instead of heating the air around it. Also this is why better to have chimney or woodstove in centre of room. The Russian pechka were pretty extreme forms of this - you'd fire the stove once or twice a day and it would stay warm for ages; the downside is they are heavy and enormous and the house has to be built for them (structurally). A lot of the benefit can be from a stone-clad wood stove or a topka inside a normal brick chimney.

    In contrast, the pure metal woodstoves mostly are heating up the air and cool down quickly; more severe temperature swings in general, particularly from a comfort perspective.

    Mind, if it won't be a serious source of heat, but just for pleasure fires or occasionally to help on very cold days, not as important.

    One other point: woodfires pollute way more than people think and it does get in the house. Always. Anyone with senstive / sickly lungs - asthmatics -will suffer. Not good for small children.

    And wood really, really needs to be dried properly, well more than a year, or burns awfully (particularly bad for health).

    (I love wood stoves but have sort of gone off them as I've read more about the pollution)

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    Should have added: if you do want some kind of wood heat, plan for it in advance. Good metal stovepipe is relatively inexpensive and fairly easy to arrange later if you know where, brick chimney more expensive and close to impossible to incorporate later. I don't know but suspect it would be fairly easy to plan for and even build the chase and roof penetration and add a wood stove later. A good wood stove is not inexpensive, but still likely cheaper and more effective than a cement/brick chimney type fireplace/topka. Of course some just don't like freestanding wood stoves and want the look of a chimeny and fireplace-looking fireplace.

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    @ Armoured, heated floors can be cost effective if done correctly, plus heat rises which sends heat to the 2nd floor, if thought out well, this heat can warm upstairs.

    Another thing to remember, is proper air ventilation in the house, good air circulation makes for a healthy house.

    Regarding checking on workers, it's no brainer that it's best to follow what's going on step by step, also keep an eye on hidden works, like roof insulation, how they put down rockwool in the roof.
    For wooden houses, for electrics, for safety, put wires in metal conduits, cheaper version is plastic ones, and for a neater looking house, put the wiring inside the walls.

    Google conduits metal flexible to see what I mean.

    Like mentioned before, cheaper to buy materials yourself, the building company will give you a list of what's needed, it takes some running around but you save in the long run, of course things like huge quantity of wood best let them buy smal pieces of wood can be bought at Leroy Merlin.

    Also, visit some houses that are in process and finished by the company you choose.

    If you plan on living all year round,
    There are some things you don't wanna go cheap on, like, roof, windows, wood for house, also paint, best pay extra for decent paint, Russian weather eats cheap paint for breakfast.

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  12. #38
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    Armoured said,

    Wood heat a great option, but make sure to get one with sealed doors - open fireplaces are worse than useless. Wood stove or a 'topka' (the firebox of a wood stove with the chimney/brick built around it) only. (Or a traditional Russian pechka).
    100% agree, closed glass firedoors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge View Post
    @ Armoured, heated floors can be cost effective if done correctly, plus heat rises which sends heat to the 2nd floor, if thought out well, this heat can warm upstairs.
    I'm sure they can be done cost effectively, but here's a few points:
    -electric resistance underfloor heating is fairly reasonably priced, but it locks you into that source of heat - it can't be switched to another heat source later. I still think it's worth considering as a supplemental heat / comfort thing in a few key rooms, but for this reason, wouldn't want to have it as main source of heat.
    -underfloor radiant (ie. water tubes below) I believe are generally more expensive.
    -Traditional radiator - you can swap out the electric boiler for almost any other heat source relatively easily, ie if gas should eventually be connected, or propane, or a heat pump, each of which could be quite a lot cheaper in future. (Also more possibility, for example, to program an electric boiler to run at night at cheapest rates).

    So that's the reason I'd approach this way - but I've no objectio to looking into it and my info may be somewhat out of date on pricing especially.

    Side note of importance: underfloor heating, condensing gas boilers (and I think condensing boilers on other fuels), and heat pump boilers all work with lower water temperatures than radiators are typically made to run off of when burning gas in conventional boilers.

    What does this mean? To heat a house with lower-temperature water, you basically need more radiators and greater physical sizing of the radiators (higher temp radiators can be smaller) - radiant floors act like very large low temperature radiators. The engineering calcs will be different when they figure out how many rads are needed. So there is some argument to be made to over-size your rads and put more of them in, they can always be fitted with thermostatic controls, or temps reduced overall. Basically this is asking them to design for temp output lower than usual. (yes, more rads can be fitted later if necessary, but extra expense)

    I had a place that was heated with electric in winter, the previous owners were at peak spending more than $1k a month on electricity - I think it was >$8k a year. (Full time there, with kids, lots of hot water needs, no use of fireplace, etc - I used it only part time and had the fireplace upgraded and it cost a lot less for my use). A heat pump boiler is fairly expensive but can pay for itself pretty quickly at those kinds of monthly outlays.

    Anyway, one reason why going with a standard electric boiler that can be switched out later is an advantage.

    Oh, side note: if on an electric boiler, I'd make sure the system had the anti-freeze in the heat system - it's a huge hassle to have to fix a system whose pipes have burst due to freezing. And electricity outages are more common in dachaland than in Moscow.

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    Very true, and looking at more remote dachas I have found the subject of Russian stoves practical and very interesting. Not only for cooking but as the old fashioned central heating.
    Last edited by johnsimpson; 04-07-2019 at 15:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benedikt View Post
    on all the dachas i have been over the years more or less each and everyone had a wood burning stove in the kitchen. some a big one some a smaller one. but each owner said, one never knows what will happen. but wood will be always available. a sensible comment...


    Very true, and looking at more remote dachas I have found the subject of Russian stoves practical and very interesting. Not only for cooking but as the old fashioned central heating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsimpson View Post
    Very true, and looking at more remote dachas I have found the subject of Russian stoves practical and very interesting. Not only for cooking but as the old fashioned central heating.
    This is an interesting read about Russian stoves. http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_stove

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armoured View Post
    I'm sure they can be done cost effectively, but here's a few points:
    -electric resistance underfloor heating is fairly reasonably priced, but it locks you into that source of heat - it can't be switched to another heat source later. I still think it's worth considering as a supplemental heat / comfort thing in a few key rooms, but for this reason, wouldn't want to have it as main source of heat.
    -underfloor radiant (ie. water tubes below) I believe are generally more expensive.
    -Traditional radiator - you can swap out the electric boiler for almost any other heat source relatively easily, ie if gas should eventually be connected, or propane, or a heat pump, each of which could be quite a lot cheaper in future. (Also more possibility, for example, to program an electric boiler to run at night at cheapest rates).

    So that's the reason I'd approach this way - but I've no objectio to looking into it and my info may be somewhat out of date on pricing especially.

    Side note of importance: underfloor heating, condensing gas boilers (and I think condensing boilers on other fuels), and heat pump boilers all work with lower water temperatures than radiators are typically made to run off of when burning gas in conventional boilers.

    What does this mean? To heat a house with lower-temperature water, you basically need more radiators and greater physical sizing of the radiators (higher temp radiators can be smaller) - radiant floors act like very large low temperature radiators. The engineering calcs will be different when they figure out how many rads are needed. So there is some argument to be made to over-size your rads and put more of them in, they can always be fitted with thermostatic controls, or temps reduced overall. Basically this is asking them to design for temp output lower than usual. (yes, more rads can be fitted later if necessary, but extra expense)

    I had a place that was heated with electric in winter, the previous owners were at peak spending more than $1k a month on electricity - I think it was >$8k a year. (Full time there, with kids, lots of hot water needs, no use of fireplace, etc - I used it only part time and had the fireplace upgraded and it cost a lot less for my use). A heat pump boiler is fairly expensive but can pay for itself pretty quickly at those kinds of monthly outlays.

    Anyway, one reason why going with a standard electric boiler that can be switched out later is an advantage.

    Oh, side note: if on an electric boiler, I'd make sure the system had the anti-freeze in the heat system - it's a huge hassle to have to fix a system whose pipes have burst due to freezing. And electricity outages are more common in dachaland than in Moscow.
    electric resistance underfloor heating
    That's the dry system which costs more to run, there's the wet system, where you put water in the pipes that heat up, for Russian weather best mix anti-freeze with the wet system, then set it to a thermostat it will regulate itself..
    The wet system cost more I think, you can have a big cement block with the pipes sealed in to it.



    – Electric underfloor heating (dry systems)

    These systems are cheaper, easier to install, and suitable for DIY. You should expect the running cost of this underfloor heating system to be higher.

    – Water underfloor heating (wet system)

    Installation of these systems is a lot more involved, usually reserved for new-builds. Since they tap into existing boiler systems they cost significantly less to run.

    The total cost of installing underfloor heating will be dependent on the size of your house/room, system type and groundwork required.
    https://householdquotes.co.uk/how-mu...floor-heating/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge View Post
    That's the dry system which costs more to run, there's the wet system, where you put water in the pipes that heat up, for Russian weather best mix anti-freeze with the wet system, then set it to a thermostat it will regulate itself..
    The wet system cost more I think, you can have a big cement block with the pipes sealed in to it.
    Yes, the dry system more to run, wet system better but more expensive to install.

    Note though: if the heat is just going to be an electric (resistance) boiler, it's not going to be any cheaper to run than the wet system - it might even be more expensive because of the extra heating of the cement block. (As noted, it should be cheaper later when/if a cheaper heating source installed).

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    In contrast, the pure metal woodstoves mostly are heating up the air and cool down quickly; more severe temperature swings in general, particularly from a comfort perspective.
    i only ONCE had the pleasure to sleep on top of a REAL russian brick oven. with the cats and dogs we did not get much sleep anyway.
    I do agree with your comment on -iron- ovens. they were there mainly when there should be a real emergency. not done in particular for heating the house or the likes. but just use for cooking if ALL and everything goers wrong. i remember when i was a kid, many years back i nAustria. We had a woodturning oven that was used for cooking and heating but only the kitchen. In winter in our bedrooms, north facing, there were thick ice crystals on the top of the wall and window. BUT a thick feather duvet, a bottle with hot water and we were warm in next to nothing. flue, sniffles, colds? we never knew what that was... of course getting up in the morning and getting dressed was a VERY fast affair...
    There is no greater treasure then pleasure....

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