Brookes School        British Lyceum in Moscow
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: How the Ottomans saved Britain

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    you've guessed it!
    Posts
    3,710
    Thanked: 1341

    How the Ottomans saved Britain

    From her accession to the throne in 1558, Queen Elizabeth began seeking diplomatic, commercial and military ties with Muslim rulers.

    In 1570, when it became clear that Protestant England would not return to the Catholic faith, the pope excommunicated Elizabeth and called for her to be stripped of her crown.

    Soon the might of Catholic Spain was against her, an invasion was imminent.

    English merchants were prohibited from trading with the rich markets of the Spanish Netherlands.

    Economic and political isolation threatened to destroy the newly Protestant country.

    Elizabeth responded by reaching out to the Ottoman Caliphate. Spain’s only rival was the Ottoman Empire ruled by Sultan Murad III.

    The Ottomans had been fighting the Hapsburgs for decades, conquering parts of Hungary.

    Elizabeth hoped that an alliance with the Sultan would provide much needed relief from Spanish military aggression and enable her merchants to tap into the lucrative markets of the East.

    The Caliphate was far more powerful than Elizabeth’s little Island nation floating in the soggy mists off Europe.

    Elizabeth wanted to explore her new trade alliances, but couldn’t afford to finance them. Her response was to exploit the obscure commercial innovation – joint stock companies.

    The capital from the companies was used to fund the costs of commercial voyages.

    Elizabeth enthusiastically backed the Muscovy company which traded with Persia and went on to inspire the formation of a company that traded with the Ottomans and the East India Company which would eventually conquer India.

    In the 1580s she signed a commercial agreement with the Ottomans that would last over 300 years granting her merchants free commercial access to Ottoman lands.

    As money poured in, Elizabeth began writing letters to her Muslim counterparts extolling the benefits of reciprocal trade.

    She wrote as a supplicant, calling Murad “The most mighty ruler of the Kingdom of Turkey, sole and above all, and most sovereign monarch of the East Empire.”

    She also played on their mutual hostility to Catholicism, describing herself as “the most invincible and most mighty defender of the Christian faith against all kind of idolatries.”

    Thousands of English traders crossed many of today’s regions, like Aleppo and Mosul which were far safer than they would have been on a journey through Catholic Europe where they risked falling into the hands of the Inquisition.

    Some Englishman even converted to Islam such as Samson Rowlie, a Norfolk merchant who became Hassan Aga.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p18215YpzaU

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to quincy For This Useful Post:

    Suuryaa (01-05-2018), TolkoRaz (07-05-2018)

  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Moscow/Russia
    Posts
    18,299
    Thanked: 3622
    if it wasn't for the Austrians with the help of the Polish king and his winged riders, we all, Europe and the UK, most probably would be speaking Turkish today and the St.Stephen's Cathedral in Vienna and Notre Dame in Paris would have been Muslim Mosques. And on top of Big Ben would have been flying the half moon.... Twice the Ottomans wanted to conquer Vienna, the Golden Apple, as it was called. And twice we sent them back their tails between their legs.
    There is no greater treasure then pleasure....

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Benedikt For This Useful Post:

    quincy (26-04-2018), rusmeister (09-05-2018)

  5. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    you've guessed it!
    Posts
    3,710
    Thanked: 1341
    Quote Originally Posted by Benedikt View Post
    if it wasn't for the Austrians with the help of the Polish king and his winged riders, we all, Europe and the UK, most probably would be speaking Turkish today and the St.Stephen's Cathedral in Vienna and Notre Dame in Paris would have been Muslim Mosques. And on top of Big Ben would have been flying the half moon.... Twice the Ottomans wanted to conquer Vienna, the Golden Apple, as it was called. And twice we sent them back their tails between their legs.
    Who would have guessed that a north west European Christian country would form an alliance with the Ottomans, who started their journey west from what is now Turkmenistan and after converting into Islam set about to conquer Europe?

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to quincy For This Useful Post:

    Benedikt (26-04-2018)

  7. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Moscow/Russia
    Posts
    18,299
    Thanked: 3622
    Quote Originally Posted by quincy View Post
    Who would have guessed that a north west European Christian country would form an alliance with the Ottomans, who started their journey west from what is now Turkmenistan and after converting into Islam set about to conquer Europe?
    they were sob's but - our - sob's.... works till today....
    There is no greater treasure then pleasure....

  8. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    you've guessed it!
    Posts
    3,710
    Thanked: 1341
    Quote Originally Posted by Benedikt View Post
    they were sob's but - our - sob's.... works till today....
    sob's to Austria, Spain and the Vatican

    To the English Queen, however the ottomans were probably a gift from heaven for keeping Catholic forces busy

  9. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    moscow
    Posts
    572
    Thanked: 286
    Speaking of joint stock companies; I read an interesting article about why England eventually dominated and colonized America. It was was because other countries, such as Spain or France, didn't have this type of business, and as a result, speculators/investors were hesitant to gamble it all in one go; whereas the British merchants could pool their monies and not lose their entire fortune.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to americaninmoscow For This Useful Post:

    Armoured (14-05-2018)

  11. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Moscow/Russia
    Posts
    18,299
    Thanked: 3622
    Quote Originally Posted by quincy View Post
    sob's to Austria, Spain and the Vatican

    To the English Queen, however the ottomans were probably a gift from heaven for keeping Catholic forces busy
    most probably. because, had Vienna fallen, Suleiman Pasha would have gone farther. and for sure would not have stopped in Dunkirk
    There is no greater treasure then pleasure....

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Benedikt For This Useful Post:

    quincy (14-05-2018), rusmeister (09-05-2018)

  13. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    you've guessed it!
    Posts
    3,710
    Thanked: 1341
    Quote Originally Posted by Benedikt View Post
    most probably. because, had Vienna fallen, Suleiman Pasha would have gone farther. and for sure would not have stopped in Dunkirk
    It was the traditional "my enemy's enemy is my friend" mentality

    Although it is widely believed that until they were blocked at Vienna the ottomans were unstoppable, 100 years earlier they had tried to take Rome, having landed troops on the Italian peninsula, but had failed

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to quincy For This Useful Post:

    Armoured (14-05-2018)

  15. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Russia
    Posts
    7,789
    Thanked: 727
    Any Muslim that says that one need not emulate the example of the Prophet, including jihad as he conducted it, or that it is not a Muslim’s duty to spread Islam all over the Earth until the entire world is Muslim is either a naive convert who hasn’t thought or studied much, or is practicing taqiyya.

  16. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Kashin, Tverskaya obl.
    Posts
    1,741
    Thanked: 499
    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post
    Any Muslim that says that one need not emulate the example of the Prophet, including jihad as he conducted it, or that it is not a Muslim’s duty to spread Islam all over the Earth until the entire world is Muslim is either a naive convert who hasn’t thought or studied much, or is practicing taqiyya.
    ....and will be smitten by the true Muslims.
    If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough...

  17. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Russia
    Posts
    7,789
    Thanked: 727
    Quote Originally Posted by bydand View Post
    ....and will be smitten by the true Muslims.
    Actually, that is what really happens when Muslims gain political power and begin imposing Sharia law. All one has to do is look at any country run under Islam. But if a Muslim was practicing taqiyya and could prove it, he would be praised, not smitten.

    But for purposes of this thread it might be enough to talk about the battle of Lepanto, and more importantly, the prelude, the seige of Famagusta and the fate of the Cyprians after their surrendur. Oh, and that though she didn’t help the Holy League at all, after the defeat of the Islamic fleet in the greatest sea battle of that age, she ordered the Anglican Church to celebrate that victory over that aggressive expansion of Islam. So if the Ottomans “saved” Britain, the English sure had a funny way of showing their gratitude.

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to rusmeister For This Useful Post:

    bydand (16-05-2018)

  19. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    you've guessed it!
    Posts
    3,710
    Thanked: 1341
    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post
    So if the Ottomans “saved” Britain, the English sure had a funny way of showing their gratitude.
    Probably Protestants didn't want the ottomans to become too powerful. But according to this source they had more things in common

    Muslims and Protestants not only had Catholic enemies in common, chiefly Habsburg Spain, but also shared a profound contempt for idolatry. In a letter to Queen Elizabeth, Murad III praised Protestantism as “the most sound religion” in Christianity, while the Bishop of Winchester returned the favour, rather more conditionally, when he dismissed the Pope as “a more perilous enemy unto Christ, than the Turk; and Popery more idolatrous, than Turkery”. On the defeat in 1588 of the Armada, a Moroccan court historian, lifting a phrase from the Koran, wrote approvingly of the divine wind that had been sent to scatter the infidel Spanish fleet.

    Such accord had its footing in trade, with the English supplying the tin on which the Ottomans depended to cast their guns. Protestant merchants even stripped England’s post-dissolution monasteries of their lead roofing and bell metal for shipment to Constantinople. In their dealings with Morocco, the English traded shipbuilding timbers for much-needed saltpetre.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/wh...ed-with-islam/

  20. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Russia
    Posts
    7,789
    Thanked: 727
    Quote Originally Posted by quincy View Post
    Probably Protestants didn't want the ottomans to become too powerful. But according to this source they had more things in common

    Muslims and Protestants not only had Catholic enemies in common, chiefly Habsburg Spain, but also shared a profound contempt for idolatry. In a letter to Queen Elizabeth, Murad III praised Protestantism as “the most sound religion” in Christianity, while the Bishop of Winchester returned the favour, rather more conditionally, when he dismissed the Pope as “a more perilous enemy unto Christ, than the Turk; and Popery more idolatrous, than Turkery”. On the defeat in 1588 of the Armada, a Moroccan court historian, lifting a phrase from the Koran, wrote approvingly of the divine wind that had been sent to scatter the infidel Spanish fleet.

    Such accord had its footing in trade, with the English supplying the tin on which the Ottomans depended to cast their guns. Protestant merchants even stripped England’s post-dissolution monasteries of their lead roofing and bell metal for shipment to Constantinople. In their dealings with Morocco, the English traded shipbuilding timbers for much-needed saltpetre.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/wh...ed-with-islam/
    OK, let’s talk about that. First of all, Protestantism wasn’t a monolith even then. To speak about it as the “most sound (sic) religion” is incredibly ignorant, as there never has been a united Protestantism. But it IS true that there was a Christian attitude that saw a false or mistaken version of Christian faith as worse than Islam, but the most relevant truth is that all versions would have fared alike under Islamic rule. A Protestant dhimmi would have been no better off than a Catholic one, and devshirme was no respecter of non-Islamic traditions, even of “people of the book”. Anyone who does not know those Islamic terms can look them up, and find justification for those practices in the Koran and Hadith.

    Since most here are probably not practicing Catholics or Orthodox, you would need to learn what idolatry is, and how we see these things to talk intelligently about it, but the super-short version is that an idol is anything that replaces God, that we place equal or higher value on than on God. Once you grasp that Orthodox and Catholics don’t worship icons or statues, you can see that talking about idolatry is, again, out of ignorance.

    It’s obvious to anyone with a brain that the Turks were just flattering the English until they could get in position to take England itself. There was never any serious alliance or basis for one between the nations.

  21. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Russia
    Posts
    7,789
    Thanked: 727
    A fairly typical tale of Islamic conquest:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Famagusta

    Bragadin got a raw deal. Also, one line about him ostensibly slaughtering Muslim prisoners looks like a hasty insertion by an Islamic apologist, and doesn’t fit at all into the story as a whole.

    But even more important is the strategic picture of Islamic aggression vs Christian agression across history: https://youtu.be/I_To-cV94Bo

  22. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    you've guessed it!
    Posts
    3,710
    Thanked: 1341
    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post
    A fairly typical tale of Islamic conquest:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Famagusta

    Bragadin got a raw deal. Also, one line about him ostensibly slaughtering Muslim prisoners looks like a hasty insertion by an Islamic apologist, and doesn’t fit at all into the story as a whole.

    But even more important is the strategic picture of Islamic aggression vs Christian agression across history: https://youtu.be/I_To-cV94Bo
    Historians to this day debate just why Venice did not send help to Bragadin from Souda, Crete. It is alleged that some Venetians thought about putting their limited military assets to better use in the forthcoming clash, already in sight, which would climax in the Battle of Lepanto.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Famagusta

    The ottomans were known to be somewhat merciless against cities that resisted them but were eventually taken
    The venetian republic should have either provided full support to the garrison in Cyprus, or negotiated a transition to ottoman control
    The betrayal of Venice should be a key part of this story, not just the conduct of the ottomans

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •