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Thread: F. William Engdahl on MH17

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    F. William Engdahl on MH17

    Long article which can be read at the link. This is a partial excerpt.


    Another Journalist Exposes MH17 False Flag

    19.08.2014



    So who did shoot the plane down?

    “Here the waters get very rough and very ugly. The specific area where the fatal missile was fired is not in fact under control of the “pro-Russia rebels”. It is run by a neo-nazi private mercenary army, raised by Ukrainian billionaire Ihor Kolomoisky.

    “Kolomoisky stinks of being an asset of the US and Israeli intelligence services, at minimum. He holds both Ukrainian and Israeli passports and runs his business empire from Switzerland, not Kiev, despite being Governor of Dnipropetrovsk oblast in eastern Ukraine. His mercenary army does possess the BUK missiles allegedly used in the shootdown of MH-17, and he has threatened terrorist attacks on Russian-speaking officials in his oblast, and even assassinations.

    “Estimated to be the second-richest person in Ukraine, Kolomoisky also has strong connections inside Kiev’s Borispol International Airport, whose air traffic control tower Ukrainian Interior Ministry troops reportedly stormed shortly before MH-17 was shot down. New Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov, formerly wanted by Interpol for fraud, was the man who first designated the east Ukraine rebels as “terrorists,” which ostensibly allows him to commit any atrocity against innocent civilians very much as Israel is doing in Gaza today.

    “Furthermore, in a personal interview with the Veterans Today Tbilisi Georgia bureau chief Jeffrey Silverman pointed shared with Engdahl the possible complicity of the Inmarsat Company in the MH17. Inmarsat, which lists the Pentagon and US Government as major clients, controls most international air traffic control communications systems. According to Silverman, during the earlier disappearance of Malaysian Airlines flight MH370 the flight was “lost” due to Inmarsat turning off their signals, and it still refuses today to release the data it has about this flight.

    Inmarsat is key to aviation safety through its 24/7/365 Network Operations Security Center (NOSC), highly skilled and cleared personnel maintain onsite Communications Security (COMSEC) capabilities. It works closely with IA certifiers to ensure adherence to all government requirements. Significantly however it employs (U.S. and NATO cleared personnel in support of its customers’ Authority to Operate (ATO), Information Security (INFOSEC) and IA process requirements.

    “In an interview just after the downing of MH17, a Spanish national identified only as “Carlos” told ETN, an online news service, that his private evaluation, based on military sources in Kiev, was that the Ukrainian military was behind this shoot down. He said that Kiev radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear that a passenger jet had been shot down, and all foreign employees of Air Traffic Control in Kiev were sacked immediately. Carlos also reported that the very same MH17 plane had been escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared from radar. We may never hear any more from Carlos though, because just after his report was posted on the internet he disappeared and his social media accounts were wiped, and no one seems to know his whereabouts.

    “Kolomoisky’s forces comprise Ukrainian regular military personnel; neo-Nazi units from west Ukraine; foreign mercenaries, including Georgians, Romanians, and white supremacists from Sweden and Germany, and ex-Israel Defence Force Blue Helmet commandos. Georgians in Kolomoisky’s Army have reportedly been trained in the use of the BUK missile systems that the Viktor Yushchenko government sold to then-Georgia President Mikheil Saakashvili. Saakashvili has announced that he has been offering “consulting services” in Ukraine, and Kolomoisky has used these as part of his military and political campaign against the breakaway people’s republics of Donetsk and Luhansk.

    “A serious truth-seeking investigation ought to start with Kolomoisky and his international network. But at this point it is clear that the attempt to pin the MH17 atrocity on Putin’s Russia is a classic CIA “false flag” operation, an attempt to try to blame the enemy for what you yourself have actually done, though this has begun to badly backfire.”

    http://journal-neo.org/2014/08/19/an...17-false-flag/

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    Oh wonderful, another conspiracy theory.

    Why haven't you posted the one yet which claims the Ukrainian rebels were trying to bring down an Aeroflot plane to trigger a Russian invasion? They're all equally retarded, might as well post them all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JanC View Post
    Oh wonderful, another conspiracy theory.

    Why haven't you posted the one yet which claims the Ukrainian rebels were trying to bring down an Aeroflot plane to trigger a Russian invasion? They're all equally retarded, might as well post them all.
    Yawn

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    Quote Originally Posted by JanC View Post
    Oh wonderful, another conspiracy theory.

    Why haven't you posted the one yet which claims the Ukrainian rebels were trying to bring down an Aeroflot plane to trigger a Russian invasion? They're all equally retarded, might as well post them all.

    Engdahl is is a fairly credible independent journalist.

    Look around for yourself at Ukrainian billionaire Ihor Kolomoisky. Turns out to be a very interesting character indeed.


    And it seems that a number of countries have agreed not to release what is known about the crash -
    http://www.blacklistednews.com/MH-17...38/38/Y/M.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by annasophia View Post
    Engdahl is is a fairly credible independent journalist.
    I don't care who he is, I read the ''article" rather than his bio.

    I actually read that as well, and he believes quite a number of things which are scientifically unsupported like oil not being biological.

    Anyway.

    The article says that the key questions to ask are:

    1) Why did the pilot divert from his usual flight plan?
    2) Why did he fly over restricted airspace?
    3) What, if any, instructions, did Kiev air control give the pilot in the minutes before the tragic explosion?

    1) The deviation was was not unusual or abnormal. Nor was it huge in terms of how airliners navigate around weather on a daily basis.

    2) The airspace he was in was not restricted. Multiple commercial airliners used the same airspace that day, no need to single out the deceased crew.

    3) We don't know yet.


    What will happen is, at some point in the not too distant future, the air crash investigation will release an interim report. Much after that, a final report. These will contain many facts which we can currently only guess at. Probably some transcripts between the plane and ATC will also be included.

    What will also happen is, conspiracy theorists will continue to see conspiracies left right and center. The reports into the crash will be classified as the result of a conspiracy involving several independent governments and thousands of actual people. Go ahead and circlejerk around ''the truth which they don't want us to know'' but the only actual fact I see is gigantic paranoia. That and the ancient habit of skipping the part where you gain knowledge and go straight to whatever explanation floats your boat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JanC View Post
    I don't care who he is, I read the ''article" rather than his bio.

    I actually read that as well, and he believes quite a number of things which are scientifically unsupported like oil not being biological.

    Anyway.

    The article says that the key questions to ask are:

    1) Why did the pilot divert from his usual flight plan?
    2) Why did he fly over restricted airspace?
    3) What, if any, instructions, did Kiev air control give the pilot in the minutes before the tragic explosion?

    1) The deviation was was not unusual or abnormal. Nor was it huge in terms of how airliners navigate around weather on a daily basis.

    2) The airspace he was in was not restricted. Multiple commercial airliners used the same airspace that day, no need to single out the deceased crew.

    3) We don't know yet.


    What will happen is, at some point in the not too distant future, the air crash investigation will release an interim report. Much after that, a final report. These will contain many facts which we can currently only guess at. Probably some transcripts between the plane and ATC will also be included.

    What will also happen is, conspiracy theorists will continue to see conspiracies left right and center. The reports into the crash will be classified as the result of a conspiracy involving several independent governments and thousands of actual people. Go ahead and circlejerk around ''the truth which they don't want us to know'' but the only actual fact I see is gigantic paranoia. That and the ancient habit of skipping the part where you gain knowledge and go straight to whatever explanation floats your boat.


    Check your facts again. The acticle was pretty close to the facts that we have.
    If you trust the government you obviously failed history class. " George Carlin"

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    Quote Originally Posted by JanC View Post
    Oh wonderful, another conspiracy theory.

    Why haven't you posted the one yet which claims the Ukrainian rebels were trying to bring down an Aeroflot plane to trigger a Russian invasion? They're all equally retarded, might as well post them all.
    What's a conspiracy theory?

    It's seems to be a description used to slur an opposing view. Usually it's used by those that wish to support the banker controlled governments in the west(that's a conspiracy theory too).

    Other conspiracy theories include: (that means they are total lies)
    1. Iraq had no WMD...it's there and will be found.
    2. Veitnam war was based on a so called "bay of tonken lie"
    3. Gadaffi was supported by 70% of the population, only alkaeda hated him.
    Gadaffi was not given his troops to rape women.
    4. ISIS were responsible for the chemical attack in Syria, backed by USA.
    5. Street thugs overthrew a democratically elected governement in the Ukraine in 2013, replaced by oligarchs and banker puppets.
    6. Iraq number 1 war:Iraqis killing pregnant women in Kuwait was a big fat lie used to start a war.

    The Ukrainian chocolate king was responsable for the malaysian flight crash, this is conspiracy theory too.

    Western politicians equals goodness in their purest form. They are especially great as advised by the western media, most of which is owned by rupert murdoch.(oh, not know him...the one who hacked murdered childrens phones, and the relatives of dead soldiers phones to sell more newspapers when not busy bribing police. Rupert murdoch is the guradian of politicians morals and honesty, we are so lucky)

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    Don't forget my favorite!

    Operation Northwoods was a series of proposals that originated within the Department of Defense (DoD) and the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) of the United States government in 1962. The proposals, which called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or other operatives, to commit acts of terrorism in US cities and elsewhere, were rejected by the Kennedy administration.[2]

    At the time of the proposal, Cuba had recently become communist under Fidel Castro. The operation proposed creating public support for a war against Cuba by blaming it for terrorist acts.[3] To this end, Operation Northwoods proposals recommended hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. It stated:


    The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.


    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods"]Operation Northwoods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


    The breeding grounds for such,

    Skull and Bones,

    Among prominent alumni are former President and Supreme Court Justice William Howard Taft (a founder's son); former Presidents George H. W. Bush and his son, George W. Bush; Supreme Court Justices Morrison R. Waite and Potter Stewart;[19] James Jesus Angleton, "mother of the Central Intelligence Agency"; Henry Stimson, U.S. Secretary of War (1940-1945); U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert A. Lovett, who directed the Korean War; and Henry Luce, founder and publisher of Time, Life, Fortune, and Sports Illustrated magazines.[citation needed]

    John Kerry, U.S. Secretary of State and former U.S. Senator; Stephen A. Schwarzman, founder of Blackstone Group; Austan Goolsbee,[20] Chairman of Barack Obama's Council of Economic Advisers; Harold Stanley, co-founder of Morgan Stanley; and Frederick W. Smith, founder of FedEx, are all reported to be members.


    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_Bones"]Skull and Bones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
    If you trust the government you obviously failed history class. " George Carlin"

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    the CIA overthowing a democratically elected governement in Iran in 1953 is a conspiracy theory too. the CIA puppet shah then gave Irans oil to USA for free. conspiracy theory! even though documents released by 30 year rules prove it. Its a conspiracy theory against america.

    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat"]1953 Iranian coup d'Ă©tat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    The USA puppet shah killed tens of thousands of Iranians.....

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    And the list goes on and on,

    A military coup overthrew Allende on 11 September 1973. As the armed forces bombarded the presidential palace, Allende apparently committed suicide.[41][page needed][42][page needed] After the coup, Henry Kissinger told U.S. president Richard Nixon that the United States had "helped" the coup.[43]



    A military junta, led by General Augusto Pinochet Ugarte, took control of the country. The first years of the regime were marked by human rights violations. On October 1973, at least 72 people were murdered by the Caravan of Death.[44] According to the Rettig Report and Valech Commission, at least 2,115 were killed,[45] and at least 27,265[46] were tortured (including 88 children younger than 12 years old).[46] At the national stadium, filled with detainees, one of those tortured and killed was internationally known poet-singer Victor Jara (see "Music and Dance", below). The stadium was renamed for Jara in 2003. In September 2013, Pedro Barrientos, Pinochet's commander at the stadium and now a resident of Florida, was sued in a United States federal court by the Center for Justice and Accountability, on behalf of Jara's widow and children.


    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chile"]Chile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
    If you trust the government you obviously failed history class. " George Carlin"

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    Quote Originally Posted by rumple_stilskin View Post
    What's a conspiracy theory?
    Most of the time it is a straw for the highly opinionated to grasp at when there is a conflict between what they can accept as true and what the official explanation is.

    It's not by definition wrong, like a broken clock is right twice a day.

    It's seems to be a description used to slur an opposing view.
    Well it can only be used in 1 direction. And can I ask you once again, what would make you believe this theory, but not the Ukrainian conspiracy theory that the rebels were trying to hit an Aeroflot plane? To someone who knows little about aviation and military technology both of them could be convincing enough. So on what basis did you choose, simply that which feels more plausible to you?


    I call something a conspiracy theory when it is clear that facts and rumours are organized in a specific way in search of a conclusion that agrees with what someone already believes to be the case.

    It nearly always leaves out many things for no other reason than that they do not fit the theory. It's not a collection of all available data which is then interpreted in the most plausible way, instead it just casts often unrelated things as too much of a coincidence.

    In this case, one thing which is left out for example is that pictures of the wreckage suggest it was hit by a surface to air missile rather than an air-to-air one. It make the whole unsupported fighter plane hearsay irrelevant as the wreckage does not support it.

    You are right to distrust Western media, but wrong to trust Russian media or these kinds of ''investigative journalism'' more. If you look at these conspiracy sites, their entire business is simply finding ways to claim the opposite of whatever a government line is. Or whatever the scientific consensus on something is. People want to believe that their opinions and gut feelings are right even if nearly everyone says they are not.

    It is illogical to assume that because media X has been shown to be inaccurate on occasion, that whenever you find a ''theory'' that contradicts news delivered by media X it is therefore more likely to be correct regardless of what the counter-claim is.

    The only certain truth is that you don't know what actually happened. And neither do I.

    One quote which sums up the most reasonable way to look at these things: Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JanC View Post
    Most of the time it is a straw for the highly opinionated to grasp at when there is a conflict between what they can accept as true and what the official explanation is.

    It's not by definition wrong, like a broken clock is right twice a day.



    Well it can only be used in 1 direction. And can I ask you once again, what would make you believe this theory, but not the Ukrainian conspiracy theory that the rebels were trying to hit an Aeroflot plane? To someone who knows little about aviation and military technology both of them could be convincing enough. So on what basis did you choose, simply that which feels more plausible to you?


    I call something a conspiracy theory when it is clear that facts and rumours are organized in a specific way in search of a conclusion that agrees with what someone already believes to be the case.

    It nearly always leaves out many things for no other reason than that they do not fit the theory. It's not a collection of all available data which is then interpreted in the most plausible way, instead it just casts often unrelated things as too much of a coincidence.

    In this case, one thing which is left out for example is that pictures of the wreckage suggest it was hit by a surface to air missile rather than an air-to-air one. It make the whole unsupported fighter plane hearsay irrelevant as the wreckage does not support it.

    You are right to distrust Western media, but wrong to trust Russian media or these kinds of ''investigative journalism'' more. If you look at these conspiracy sites, their entire business is simply finding ways to claim the opposite of whatever a government line is. Or whatever the scientific consensus on something is. People want to believe that their opinions and gut feelings are right even if nearly everyone says they are not.

    It is illogical to assume that because media X has been shown to be inaccurate on occasion, that whenever you find a ''theory'' that contradicts news delivered by media X it is therefore more likely to be correct regardless of what the counter-claim is.

    The only certain truth is that you don't know what actually happened. And neither do I.

    One quote which sums up the most reasonable way to look at these things: Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.


    1 The rebels had nothing to gain and everything to lose. Why would the rebels want to hit an Airflot plane? To piss Russia off and lose support? Maybe so Russia would join the fight against them? This is not logical.

    Why would Ukraine shoot the plane down and what would they have to gain? Condemnation of the rebels by the EU and the world. This is logical and we have just witnessed it in Syria with the gas attack. Like Ukraine is using the same play book.


    2A missle did not hit the plane or if it did it was also hit by machine gun fire. A missle would have spead shrapnel on only one side of the plane. The holes I see in the photos are entrance and exit holes on the same piece of the plane. This could only happen if the plane was shot at from both sides. This is why the plane was asked to fly lower.


    3Yeah CNN and the BBC muff stuff up all the time, remember the time the BBC reported building 7 falling with a live shot of the building still standing behind the reporter? Or the time CNN was to lazy to go to Saudi Arabia and do real reporting so just hauled some fake palm trees up on the roof and reported from there. Or just last year at the Boston bombing they set up two chairs in the same parking lot and fake like they were reporting from different places. Or like the more recent report that Ukraine destroyed Russian tanks crossing the border.
    If you trust the government you obviously failed history class. " George Carlin"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Wally View Post
    And the list goes on and on,
    The Indonesian killings of 1965–1966 were an anti-communist purge following a failed coup of the 30 September Movement in Indonesia. The most widely accepted estimates are that more than 500,000 people were killed. The purge was a pivotal event in the transition to the "New Order"; the Indonesian Communist Party (PKI) was eliminated as a political force
    ............................................................
    The killings started in October 1965 in Jakarta, spread to Central and East Java and later to Bali, and smaller outbreaks occurred in parts of other islands, including Sumatra.[11][17] The communal tensions and hatreds that had built up were played upon by the Army leadership who demonised Communists, and many Indonesian civilians took part in the killings.[18] The worst massacres were in Central and East Java[19] where PKI support was at its strongest. The situation varied across the country and the role of the Army has never been fully explained.[20] In some areas the Army organised, encouraged, trained, and supplied civilian groups and local militias.[17] In other areas, communal vigilante action preceded the Army, although in most cases killings did not commence before military units had sanctioned violence by instruction or example.[21] It was in the earlier stages of the killings that the army's direct involvement in clashes with the PKI occurred.[14] By the end of October, groups of devout Muslims joined the purge of Communists claiming it was their duty to cleanse Indonesia of atheism.[14]
    ...............................................
    In some areas, civilian militia knew where to find known Communists and their sympathisers, while in others the Army demanded lists of Communists from village heads.[22] PKI membership was not disguised and most suspects were easily identified within communities.[23] The American Embassy in Jakarta supplied the Indonesian military with lists of up to 5,000 suspected Communists
    .............................................
    A top secret CIA report described the massacre as "one of the worst mass murders of the 20th century, along with the Soviet purges of the 1930s, the Nazi mass murders during the Second World War, and the Maoist bloodbath of the early 1950s
    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366"]Indonesian killings of 1965–66 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

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    Quote Originally Posted by JanC View Post
    Most of the time it is a straw for the highly opinionated to grasp at when there is a conflict between what they can accept as true and what the official explanation is.

    It's not by definition wrong, like a broken clock is right twice a day.



    Well it can only be used in 1 direction. And can I ask you once again, what would make you believe this theory, but not the Ukrainian conspiracy theory that the rebels were trying to hit an Aeroflot plane? To someone who knows little about aviation and military technology both of them could be convincing enough. So on what basis did you choose, simply that which feels more plausible to you?


    I call something a conspiracy theory when it is clear that facts and rumours are organized in a specific way in search of a conclusion that agrees with what someone already believes to be the case.

    It nearly always leaves out many things for no other reason than that they do not fit the theory. It's not a collection of all available data which is then interpreted in the most plausible way, instead it just casts often unrelated things as too much of a coincidence.

    In this case, one thing which is left out for example is that pictures of the wreckage suggest it was hit by a surface to air missile rather than an air-to-air one. It make the whole unsupported fighter plane hearsay irrelevant as the wreckage does not support it.

    You are right to distrust Western media, but wrong to trust Russian media or these kinds of ''investigative journalism'' more. If you look at these conspiracy sites, their entire business is simply finding ways to claim the opposite of whatever a government line is. Or whatever the scientific consensus on something is. People want to believe that their opinions and gut feelings are right even if nearly everyone says they are not.

    It is illogical to assume that because media X has been shown to be inaccurate on occasion, that whenever you find a ''theory'' that contradicts news delivered by media X it is therefore more likely to be correct regardless of what the counter-claim is.

    The only certain truth is that you don't know what actually happened. And neither do I.

    One quote which sums up the most reasonable way to look at these things: Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.
    Of course, I don't know, what happened to this airplane.

    However, I know, the US, Ukraine and Europe were very eager to blame Russia for shooting it down well before the black boxes were located and the investigation begun. Is that a normal open democratic practice?

    That very same Ukrainian gov also claimed to destroy a group of Russian military vehicles that allegedly crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border. Where are the pictures?

    Why the black boxes info is not to be presented to the public but only to those "it is concerned with"? And where are the tapes from the traffic control?

    If everyone is so positive, it were the Russians who did it, why aren't the investigators shaking the documented proof before Churkin's nose already?
    "Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly."

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    Quote Originally Posted by penka View Post
    Of course, I don't know, what happened to this airplane.

    However, I know, the US, Ukraine and Europe were very eager to blame Russia for shooting it down well before the black boxes were located and the investigation begun. Is that a normal open democratic practice?

    That very same Ukrainian gov also claimed to destroy a group of Russian military vehicles that allegedly crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border. Where are the pictures?

    Why the black boxes info is not to be presented to the public but only to those "it is concerned with"? And where are the tapes from the traffic control?

    If everyone is so positive, it were the Russians who did it, why aren't the investigators shaking the documented proof before Churkin's nose already?
    Wow Pen.....you are really on your high horse....maybe I can cook a burger for you sometime

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