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Thread: Are all governments MEANT to be bureaucratic?

  1. #1
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    Are all governments MEANT to be bureaucratic?

    For a long time I was sure that bureaucracy in Russia is one of the worst kind and that hardly anything can compete with it, but the more I experience other governments, the more I come to the conclusion that governments seem to exist in order to uphold that bureaucracy.

    A friend of mine posted this link in answer to my query:

    http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/...rom-hollywood/

    Damn, sometimes I think there is indeed a lot to learn from Hollywood!
    Если жизнь тебя обманет,
    Не печалься, не сердись!
    В день уныния смирись:
    День веселья, верь, настанет.

    Сердце будущим живет;
    Настоящее уныло:
    Все мгновенно, все пройдет;
    Что пройдет, то будет мило.

  2. #2
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    i always argue with anyone when they say

    [QUOTE=VicY;1203614]For a long time I was sure that bureaucracy in Russia is one of the worst kind and that hardly anything can compete with it, but the more I experience other governments, the more I come to the conclusion that governments seem to exist in order to uphold that bureaucracy.



    -well, what do you expect, this is Russia-.

    Bureaucrats ALL OVER THE WORLD ARE THE SAME. TO ENRICH THEMSELVES, TO STEAL AND CHEAT AND CANIVE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE IN THE SHORTEST TIME POSSIBLE.
    And to work and produce as little as possible.

    THANK GOD, SOME PLACES STILL HAVE A LAW AND SOME OF THE SCOUNDRELS IN SOME COUNTRIES ARE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE.

    Bureaucrats to me are the most useless group of people who get a fat monthly salary to make our ( the taxpayer's) life as uncomfortable as possible.
    There is no greater treasure then pleasure....

  3. #3
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    [quote=Benedikt;1203668]
    Quote Originally Posted by VicY View Post
    For a long time I was sure that bureaucracy in Russia is one of the worst kind and that hardly anything can compete with it, but the more I experience other governments, the more I come to the conclusion that governments seem to exist in order to uphold that bureaucracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by VicY View Post

    -well, what do you expect, this is Russia-.

    Bureaucrats ALL OVER THE WORLD ARE THE SAME. TO ENRICH THEMSELVES, TO STEAL AND CHEAT AND CANIVE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE IN THE SHORTEST TIME POSSIBLE.
    And to work and produce as little as possible.

    THANK GOD, SOME PLACES STILL HAVE A LAW AND SOME OF THE SCOUNDRELS IN SOME COUNTRIES ARE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE.

    Bureaucrats to me are the most useless group of people who get a fat monthly salary to make our ( the taxpayer's) life as uncomfortable as possible.
    Thanks for the input, Benedikt, but I actually wasn't making a point about Russia, if you noticed.
    I was reiterating that so many governments seems to be downright bureaucratic in my experience that I am not even sure Russia is the worst case. Or is it that as a foreigner you'll find that wherever you go, governments of the host countries will seem to be taking special pleasure at making your life miserable?

    I posted this topic because at that moment I was waiting for my paperwork to be processed at Hong Kong's Education Bureau. Admittedly, it is already one of the least bureaucratic governments out there. Guess what? The "process" is yet not finished; it's been almost two months and I've worked for almost a month and a half. Now I'm told it MIGHT be over in another fortnight but honestly I really doubt it...
    I'm, naturally, not the only foreigner in this position, so it seems to be the norm.
    Если жизнь тебя обманет,
    Не печалься, не сердись!
    В день уныния смирись:
    День веселья, верь, настанет.

    Сердце будущим живет;
    Настоящее уныло:
    Все мгновенно, все пройдет;
    Что пройдет, то будет мило.

  4. #4
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    Some Russian Germans now living in Vaterland say that Russian bureaucrats are just kindergarten pussy cats in comparison with German ones...
    All the world's Kremlin,
    And all the men and women merely agents

  5. #5
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    "Bureaucratic" can mean many things - some government departments require a lot of documents from you, they make you wait a long time before you can see someone, they take a long time to make a decision, they make a decision but don't tell you why, they make a completely arbitrary decision, they tell you something which is untrue.

    In Canada bureaucrats will insist on every i being dotted and t being crossed, you sometimes have to wait a long time before you can see someone, they may take a long time to make a decision, but you will generally get a reason for the decision and in my experience at least, that reason is usually truthful.

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    Well, in my case I honestly don't know what takes them so long to process the papers. I've discussed it with other foreign teachers and they all shrugged and said that it might be one of those Asian things, where people love to get boggled down by heaps of paperwork and appear to be madly busy. "Make work".

    The documentation they require for submission is a thick pile of papers that has to be written in a PARTICULAR style and format. Even if the paper contains all the info they need, if it's not written in the sample format they want, they won't accept it and will ask you to "contact your former employer and ask them to issue a new paper". Good luck doing that with places that you worked at 10 or more years ago! Some of them already closed down...Some can't issue paperwork in the format required, because they have their own accepted format and wouldn't bend the rules specially for you.

    What does it mean for someone getting a job through EDB here? It means that some of your experience cannot be taken into account, which can affect your application. It sometimes borders on ridiculous: they will look at your reference letters, admit that they have the information they require BUT it's not written in the required format, therefore it can't be accepted.
    Red-tape at its best

    Well, this summer I attempted to collect as much paperwork as I could...I'm still waiting to hear about my official status (there are two options - one lower and one higher) and so are a couple of other colleagues that I met at the Induction. Let's see...
    Если жизнь тебя обманет,
    Не печалься, не сердись!
    В день уныния смирись:
    День веселья, верь, настанет.

    Сердце будущим живет;
    Настоящее уныло:
    Все мгновенно, все пройдет;
    Что пройдет, то будет мило.

  7. #7
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    I don't think they're meant to be that way, but it's inevitable to become an inefficient bureaucracy. I don't really care (that much) though, as long as corruption is kept under control, something I can't say about my own country or about Russia and many, many other places.

  8. #8
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    Well, I could say I don't care either since one's got to wait anyway, corruption or not. So why worry, one could say. It irks, especially when your future career may be affected
    Если жизнь тебя обманет,
    Не печалься, не сердись!
    В день уныния смирись:
    День веселья, верь, настанет.

    Сердце будущим живет;
    Настоящее уныло:
    Все мгновенно, все пройдет;
    Что пройдет, то будет мило.

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    If your country's corrupt, you may not have to wait. Just pay the right guy. But that can bite you in the rear later on, career wise.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicY View Post
    For a long time I was sure that bureaucracy in Russia is one of the worst kind and that hardly anything can compete with it, but the more I experience other governments, the more I come to the conclusion that governments seem to exist in order to uphold that bureaucracy.

    A friend of mine posted this link in answer to my query:

    http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/...rom-hollywood/

    Damn, sometimes I think there is indeed a lot to learn from Hollywood!
    People want to protect their jobs....hence inventing process and procedure....it is worse in the public sector.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyFirefly View Post
    If your country's corrupt, you may not have to wait. Just pay the right guy. But that can bite you in the rear later on, career wise.
    Alas, I've always had to wait...
    Если жизнь тебя обманет,
    Не печалься, не сердись!
    В день уныния смирись:
    День веселья, верь, настанет.

    Сердце будущим живет;
    Настоящее уныло:
    Все мгновенно, все пройдет;
    Что пройдет, то будет мило.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan65 View Post
    ....it is worse in the public sector.
    Definitely! And I wonder why...Because bureaucratic jobs in the public sector are so warm or cushy?
    Если жизнь тебя обманет,
    Не печалься, не сердись!
    В день уныния смирись:
    День веселья, верь, настанет.

    Сердце будущим живет;
    Настоящее уныло:
    Все мгновенно, все пройдет;
    Что пройдет, то будет мило.

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