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Thread: Music, drawing, literature

  1. #1
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    Music, drawing, literature

    what do we need them for?
    ‘Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit’.
    Song of Solomon

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    Sorry, is this a rhetoric question?
    Бешеной собачке семь верст - не крюк!

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    a loaded question
    ‘Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit’.
    Song of Solomon

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    Did you hear about the two little boys who found themselves in a modern art gallery by mistake?-*Quick,* said one, *Run ! Before they say we did it!*
    *The best thing about the future is that it comes one day at a time.*
    ― Abraham Lincoln

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    A loaded question can still have a good straight answer.

    All men who are interested in public affairs, but especially
    those who desire to influence such affairs, must concern themselves
    with two intellectual activities: History, without which one cannot
    understand mankind or one's own times and people; Literature, which is
    the expression of conscious and reasoning mankind.
    Hilaire Belloc

    Music, art and literature can be good or bad, of high quality or low, and we should desire that which improves us, lifts us up, helps us to better understand and experience the human condition. So in literature, for example, Shakespeare, Dickens and Chesterton do so, Stephen King and Harlequin romances don't, appealing to the lowest common denominator as they do. The fact that bad stuff doesn't last over generations and centuries is a clue to what is good, which is why we speak of classics.

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    Art is the space where Man meets God......(not Religion rus)

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    Art, music, books have various applications. Just some of them off the bat:
    1) Our passtime and method of self-expression for some of us
    2) Control over us by the state and/or government agencies/even corporate structures - akin to religion, which is also guided by a book - throw out the Bible from the picture and Christianity will be left without its foundation)
    3) Money-saving and -making tool, especially when it comes to paintings, a toy for the rich
    4) Educational purposes, which can be abused when #2 kicks in, and it usually does.
    5) Instruments of national identity forming what is called "culture" in general

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurale View Post
    what do we need them for?
    for being the food for our souls?
    Скушно жить, мой Евгений. Куда ни странствуй,
    всюду жестокость и тупость воскликнут: "Здравствуй!
    Вот и мы!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by peppermintpaddy View Post
    Art is the space where Man meets God......(not Religion rus)
    Well, since I've repeatedly said that I don't care for religion as such, but for the truth, I don't see how that has any relation to me, unless you are still trying to fit me into a template I just don't fit into. I am very interested in Man meeting God - and so is organized religion, generally speaking, but since the object of religion is usually God, not itself, the aside is irrelevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MashaSashina View Post
    for being the food for our souls?
    Then we want an idea of what kind of "body" our souls will grow into, and what is the nature of the "food". Just as we don't want an obese body that loses human form, as in the film "Wall-E", so we don't want a soul that becomes inhuman, such as Chikatilo, or Stalin, or a man who loves fifty women and leaves half of them pregnant, or whatever. It should produce fathers and mothers who are good, citizens who are intelligent, men who keep their word and are honorable. It should guide us toward that and away from... what we have today (which says how much good literature and art we have that large numbers of people are exposed to in our time - not much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post
    Well, since I've repeatedly said that I don't care for religion as such, but for the truth, I don't see how that has any relation to me, unless you are still trying to fit me into a template I just don't fit into. I am very interested in Man meeting God - and so is organized religion, generally speaking, but since the object of religion is usually God, not itself, the aside is irrelevant.
    For someone who doesn't care for religion as such(why no capital R?)...you sure do spend a helluva lotta time defending your particular brand of Religion.
    On the contrary,Religion is not interested in Man meeting God,Religion exists to intercede between them.
    I believe the object of Religion to be Religion itself.

    Art happens. No hovel is safe from it, no prince can depend on it, the vastest intelligence cannot bring it about. James A. M. Whistler

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurale View Post
    what do we need them for?
    Are you Plato's staunch supporter?:-))
    "Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly."

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    Quote Originally Posted by peppermintpaddy View Post
    For someone who doesn't care for religion as such(why no capital R?)...you sure do spend a helluva lotta time defending your particular brand of Religion.
    You spend a helluva lot of time attacking it.


    Quote Originally Posted by peppermintpaddy View Post
    On the contrary,Religion is not interested in Man meeting God,Religion exists to intercede between them.
    "Religion", as an abstract concept, is not "interested" in anything. ReligionS generally insist that they DO strive for Man meeting God, whatever your assertions to the contrary, which look a lot like someone insisting that the scientific community embraces seven-day Creationism, someting a majority of scientists would hotly deny.

    Quote Originally Posted by peppermintpaddy View Post
    I believe the object of Religion to be Religion itself.
    OK. But that proves nothing. What you believe is flatly contradicted by what all major world religions say about themselves. We have to ask then, who is more likely to know what object the people practicing religion are aiming for: the people who practice it, or their armchair critics?

    Quote Originally Posted by peppermintpaddy View Post
    Art happens. No hovel is safe from it, no prince can depend on it, the vastest intelligence cannot bring it about. James A. M. Whistler
    Whistler was wrong on a number if things, and while this aphorism sounds witty, it is also wrong. Art, in any sense of something that communicates beauty and truth, does not do so randomly, but by design. To say it "just happens" is an attempt to pose an unintelligent idea in an intelligent manner. It makes equal sense (that is to say, none) to say that "music happens" or "literature happens".
    For good criticism on Whistler, try GK Chesterton. http://www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/books/heretics/ch17.html
    Last edited by rusmeister; 24-06-2012 at 15:25. Reason: Added link

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    Quote Originally Posted by rusmeister View Post
    Then we want an idea of what kind of "body" our souls will grow into, and what is the nature of the "food". Just as we don't want an obese body that loses human form, as in the film "Wall-E", so we don't want a soul that becomes inhuman, such as Chikatilo, or Stalin, or a man who loves fifty women and leaves half of them pregnant, or whatever. It should produce fathers and mothers who are good, citizens who are intelligent, men who keep their word and are honorable. It should guide us toward that and away from... what we have today (which says how much good literature and art we have that large numbers of people are exposed to in our time - not much.
    ...men who keep their word and are honorable.
    Not like King Saul who didnt keep his word and killed only Amalek men, women and children and then failed to kill the livestock of Amalek.
    Rus, do you think they killed pregnant women, too?
    ==================
    What is the best translation of Сейте разумное, доброе, вечное?

    Sow that which is reasonable, good and everlasting?
    ‘Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit’.
    Song of Solomon

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurale View Post
    ...men who keep their word and are honorable.
    Not like King Saul who didnt keep his word and killed only Amalek men, women and children and then failed to kill the livestock of Amalek.
    Rus, do you think they killed pregnant women, too?
    Maybe they did. So what? Are you shocked at discovering wickedness in the ancient world? Or do you think that God must be wicked because you don't understand what you read and secretly think that this life is all there is? (If it IS, then death WOULD be the ultimate tragedy, and any killing wickedness - only, uh, without transcendent meaning, nothing would mean anything anyway. Existence, life and death, all meaningless, because of trying to hold that there is nothing but this life.)

    But if it is NOT all there is, and death IS a gateway to eternity, then two soldiers who shot each other could conceivably laugh together on the other side, and so could an Israelite and the people he'd been told to kill.

    You've already imposed your own hermeneutic on a text without asking what was the hermeneutic of the people who wrote it, or who read it today and believe. There is extensive and enormous thought on the text that so shocks you - my own unloaded question is whether you are honest enough to be willing to examine it, or dishonest enough to want to assert what you think minus that knowledge?

    If you want to judge literature or history, you need a lot of knowledge, and even then you might go wrong in your interpretations, especially on your own.

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