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View Full Version : Confusion-Length of stay vs. Length of Visa



Johnathan_Roberts
24-08-2008, 04:11
Can someone please help with this issue... I have a one year multi-entry business visa. I am living in Moscow. Simple enough.

I was told I have to leave before the first six-month period is up. I did. Twice to Kiev. Simple enough.

But the second trip to Kiev was 7 months ago. Will there be any problems in leaving Russia now?

Thanks in advance! -Johnathan

kapione
24-08-2008, 08:06
you know the law from last years.... you have seen the posts+ threads here even though you may NOT have words in either Russian or english "90 days in 90 days out" on your multiple entry business Visa

read the words above of the law , do you think you are special ? or maybe ignorning the situation you will make it better for yourself by doing opposite to what the law is , and 99% chance IT IS printed on your VISA IN YOUR Passport ......

anywhere on Earth ignorance of current laws(which change and it is YOU who must know about the changes) is responsible

and I am sure your Visa host also told you of the laws

why would you put yourself in Jeapardy ?
did you even register yourself ?
90 days in 90 days out is this clear ????

Johnathan_Roberts
24-08-2008, 21:26
Sorry. But there is absolutely nothing on my one year multi-entry business visa saying anything like I have to leave the country and come back in. It only says My visa is valid for 366 days.

Also, the people who registered me told me I only have to leave Russia one time during the length of the visa. I left two times, but unfortunately the second time was 7 months ago. I did go to Kaliningrad 5 months ago, but apparently it does not count because it is Russia.

It is not easy for a foreigner to understand all the rules that need to be followed when visiting Russia. I do my best but it is very difficult to do everything perfectly.

I am just wondering has anyone else had this problem. I imagine I will have to pay a penalty at the airport passport control. I am wondering how much it will be. Does anyone know?

Thanks for any helpful advice anyone can give.

Totti
24-08-2008, 21:39
Sorry. But there is absolutely nothing on my one year multi-entry business visa saying anything like I have to leave the country and come back in. It only says My visa is valid for 366 days.

Also, the people who registered me told me I only have to leave Russia one time during the length of the visa. I left two times, but unfortunately the second time was 7 months ago. I did go to Kaliningrad 5 months ago, but apparently it does not count because it is Russia.

It is not easy for a foreigner to understand all the rules that need to be followed when visiting Russia. I do my best but it is very difficult to do everything perfectly.

I am just wondering has anyone else had this problem. I imagine I will have to pay a penalty at the airport passport control. I am wondering how much it will be. Does anyone know?

Thanks for any helpful advice anyone can give. Suggest you take some specialist advice. Quickly. You may get away with it on exit at the airport and if you do count yourself as very lucky. Good luck. Hope it works out for you.

Judge
24-08-2008, 21:59
If there is no 90 day rule written on the visa you got last year then you will be ok to leave..I know a few people who stayed the full year on a ME biz visa and didn't need to pay a fine when they left.Don't worry about it, you will be ok..

Totti
25-08-2008, 00:10
If there is no 90 day rule written on the visa you got last year then you will be ok to leave..I know a few people who stayed the full year on a ME biz visa and didn't need to pay a fine when they left.Don't worry about it, you will be ok.. As far as I know, the "90 day rule written on the visa", is not written on the visa. Not on mine and I got the visa in May, well after the Oct cut-off. My suggestion (again) is go and get some proper advice or this thing may cost you a lot of money and pain and might even get you banned from coming back to Russia.

Kartoshka
25-08-2008, 03:57
If the visa was issued before 17th October 2007 (which it sounds like this one was), then it will be valid for a full year. Only visas issued after the new law was passed are subject to the "90 in 90 out" rule.

I think the reason you were told to leave the country within the first six months is for registration - I might be wrong here, but it's been my experience that you can't be registered for more than six months at a time, and in order to re-register you need to re-enter the country. I suggest you take a look at the date on your registration slip, because I'd guess that if you've been in the country for seven months straight then it will have expired. But like I say, I could be wrong.

However, they will not check your registration at the airport, so even if it has expired you won't have any problem leaving the country.

Johnathan_Roberts
25-08-2008, 09:33
Totti, Judge, Kartoshka-- Thanks for your replies. I appreciate them.

Totti, After being in Russia for nearly a year.. I know I can find an expert that will completely contradict another expert in Russian rules and laws. I had this experience on other issues many, many, many times. Even who I randomly walk up to at passport control, will have a different interpretation of the rules too. I wish I had someway of knowing which passport control agent does not care about this issue.

Kartoshka, Yes it's true. My 1-year visa was issued in August 2007. I was clearly told by the agency that registered me all the new visa/registration rules do not apply to me. So I am hoping this is accurate at least.

I did register properly after my last visit to Ukraine 7 months ago. So really, I only made a small mistake (if it is a mistake) of staying one month longer than the old rule requirement of 6 months.

Judge, There is absolutely nothing in my visa to indicate anything about a 6 month rule. So if your friends left with no problems regarding this issue, then I hope there will be no problems with me leaving.

If I had seen this warning, of course I would have followed it even though it seems silly to leave/return to Russia for one minute every six months. Next time (from reading the posts), I have to leave/return for 1 minute every three months. :(

Thanks. --Johnathan

Totti
25-08-2008, 10:21
INext time (from reading the posts), I have to leave/return for 1 minute every three months. It's not a matter of coming and going but rather, as has been pointed out here several times, the total number of days in country. A one year multi entry business visa allows you to stay in Russia for a maximum of 90 days out of every 180 days.

xSnoofovich
25-08-2008, 10:22
Actually, you have to leave every three months. On a ME Business visa - you only be in the country 180 days out of 365. So - 90 in, 90 out. ;)

Johnathan_Roberts
25-08-2008, 20:52
This is where English language is a pain. Just a slight incorrect word and the entire meaning changes.

xSnoofovich you wrote, "On a ME Business visa - you only be in the country 180 days out of 365."

Tottia likewise you wrote, "A one year multi entry business visa allows you to stay in Russia for a maximum of 90 days out of every 180 days."

Both of you are saying (if I am not mistaken), "You can only be in Russia for 6 months out of 12."

In my case, since I have a one year business visa (issued August 2007 and valid Sept 2007 -- Sept 2008), you are saying I was only supposed to be in Russia for 6 months during this one year period????

Not a single person has every told me this. Why in the world does my visa clearely state: "Duration of Stay 366 days."

Your comments are a huge surprise to me and I think either I am interpreting what you both wrote incorrectly, or "Duration of Stay" does not mean exactly what it means.

I guess since this topic is apparently on another thread, no use beating a dead horse and I will try to find the other thread.

But most of all, when I get home...I'll post back to this thread how it went for me at passport control.

I sure hope I will be writing my message from America rather than back in my flat in Moscow. :))))))

Kartoshka
26-08-2008, 05:31
I'll say it again - because your visa was issued before the new law was passed, it is NOT subject to the rules xSnoofovich and Totti are writing about. These rules apply to business visas issued after 17th October 2007. So next time, if you come to Russia on a business visa, you will only be allowed to stay for 90 days and then you will have to leave for 90 days. But this time you were fine to stay in Russia for 366 days, as stated on your visa, because it was issued in August 2007 and so the old rules (where "one year visa" meant you could stay in the country for a full year) apply.

On your registration slip it should say that you are registered until a certain date. If it is now later than that date, then yes you have made a mistake. While registration isn't a big deal, it is best to do it properly because who knows when they'll start connecting the immigration and registration departments and it will become a big deal?

Johnathan_Roberts
26-08-2008, 10:59
Thanks! Yes, I am not at the point where I agree with all you wrote about my (hopefully) grandfathered in rules under my old visa. I feel pretty certain I'll have no problems at the airport with my old 1 year multi-entry visa as I leave Russia.

And thanks to all the posters, I now understand life in Russia for a lot of foreigners, with the new rules, is completely changed for the worse! Wow. A business visa usually is a good thing for a country. It's pretty disappointing to understand the new rules make it very difficult for foreigners doing business in Russia.

Thanks to all for the informative posts.

Totti
26-08-2008, 11:17
And thanks to all the posters, I now understand life in Russia for a lot of foreigners, with the new rules, is completely changed for the worse! Wow. A business visa usually is a good thing for a country. It's pretty disappointing to understand the new rules make it very difficult for foreigners doing business in Russia. This is not a Russia thing. I understand that last year some bureaucrat in Brussels decided that the EU and Russia needed to harmonize visa conditions ... so they changed the Russian conditions to EU conditions. The EU has exactly the same 90 day restrictions and the idea comes from them.

kapione
27-08-2008, 20:00
does anyone actually read older threads and posts?

fact is 90 days in 90days out for ME Business visas

press your luck stay longer , want trouble , trouble will find you, especially on the trains, it will be you and your technicallities guess who will lose , YOU

Bels
27-08-2008, 22:05
Unfortunately there are still contradictions of the visa laws, and even the Russian officials get it wrong. For me I 'd go for the fact that you got the visa before the new laws came through. So you should be ok. Even so,that wouldn't stop me worrying, due to the confusion caused by constant changing of Russian laws, where even the Russian officials get confused.

Johnathan_Roberts
08-09-2008, 14:11
Well...I left Moscow with absolutely zero problems. I am not sure if it is because there is a disconnect between registration and visa, or because my visa had nothing written in it concerning any rules about length of stay... but anyway even after being in Moscow for seven consecutive months, it was not a problem to leave.

One thing seemed obvious. The older visas are seemingly not under the new rules.

It is very clear to passport control that the last time I entered Russia was seven months ago. He could easily see this on my arrival/departure card which they keep. I think he only checked the date on my visa and didn't even bother to look at the arrival/departure date.

Thanks for the informative posts. Particularly for those that said there should not be an issue because I did have an older visa. --Johnathan

Kartoshka
08-09-2008, 19:03
Glad you got home safely Johnathan. Thanks for giving us an update.

Bels
08-09-2008, 19:25
That's what this thread is all about, confusion of these new laws last year, 90 days in, 90 days out. And does it now apply to Brits and Americans who didn't sign such an agreement. Yes there is confusion. Is there anybody affected now! About these new regulations. Because about now they should start to be in full affect. Yes there is confusion, and it's not our fault!

I personally won't gain this experience as I have had residency since last November, as many know here.

Sumarokov-Elston
11-09-2008, 19:30
I have the EXACT same situation as you, Johnathan, my visa was issued just days before the law came into force. Your papers are perfectly order, do not worry. But your NEXT visa will state 90/180 days instead of 366 days.

Johnathan_Roberts
17-09-2008, 03:30
I have no idea where my post disappeared too. I posted it last week..I think? Anyway....

NO PROBLEMS at passport control. There seems to be a disconnect between my length of stay in Russia (6-1/2 months) registration and the visa department. It's good!

Next time, I understand the maximum period of stay is 3 months during a 6 month visa period. Thanks to all who told me not to worry! You ended up being correct in the case of my older 12 months visa. -Johnathan

Reverend
17-09-2008, 11:51
This is not a Russia thing. I understand that last year some bureaucrat in Brussels decided that the EU and Russia needed to harmonize visa conditions ... so they changed the Russian conditions to EU conditions. The EU has exactly the same 90 day restrictions and the idea comes from them. As thought the Russian government needed any new ideas to confuse/complicate the visa issue????

The Traveler
17-09-2008, 12:29
My VISA was issued on December 28, 2007, and began on January 9, 2008. One year, multiple entry, and duration of stay is 367. But I also have moved out and left Moscow for the summer to obtain these so called "free days" in my VISA. Are you telling me now that I didn't have to do this? What a pain in my @ss! I'm coming back tomorrow to stay until December. I never would have left if I had known I didn't have to...

Judge
17-09-2008, 12:31
Good to hear everything worked out for you Johnathan.

To The Traveler,your visa was issued in Dec 2007,so it would fall under the new 90day rule.
Johnathan's visa was issued before the new law.In your visa,does it say about the 90 day rule?

The Traveler
17-09-2008, 12:50
Not a thing! That's what makes me crazy. My VISA says exactly this:

Дата Выдачи Въезд с/Пребывание По На Срок/Дней
28,12,07 09,01,08/09,01,09 Многократная Од 367

That's it! Nothing about leaving, nothing about 90/90.

nyinrussia
17-09-2008, 15:00
Unless you have applied for temporary residnency you are subject to the 90 day in and 90 day out rule.

MaltSokol
17-09-2008, 18:08
Unless you have applied for temporary residnency you are subject to the 90 day in and 90 day out rule.

what?? If you have applied for TRP can you stay on a ME business visa without 90/180 ??
I must have misunderstood you... :whisper:

Judge
17-09-2008, 21:59
Not a thing! That's what makes me crazy. My VISA says exactly this:

Дата Выдачи Въезд с/Пребывание По На Срок/Дней
28,12,07 09,01,08/09,01,09 Многократная Од 367

That's it! Nothing about leaving, nothing about 90/90.

Visas issued after Oct all come under the 90day rule,even if it doesn't say so on the visa.
You did the right thing to leave.

The Traveler
18-09-2008, 06:41
Well I guess that makes me feel better, then. I don't mind the beaurocracy most of the time, it's part of International Business in every country, not just Russia. But at least other places I know for sure what I'm supposed to do and not to do with myself, and my travels. This is probably the most single annoying thing about this place...registration, visa...basically all living procedures. Oh well, no good to bitch about it. I don't suppose I'll see an end to it in my business lifetime here.