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Judge
01-08-2008, 22:06
I always thought that there was something wrong with this case.Looks like it could have been a professional hit after all.
Another screw up by London's best coppers..

''Barry George has walked free from court after spending eight years trying to prove he did not kill TV presenter Jill Dando.''

Barry George Cleared Of Jill Dando Murder | UK News | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Barry-George-Cleared-Of-Jill-Dando-Murder/Article/200808115063432?lpos=UK%2BNews_0&lid=ARTICLE_15063432_Barry%2BGeorge%2BCleared%2BOf%2BJill%2BDando%2BMurder)

Gypsy
01-08-2008, 22:21
I always thought that there was something wrong with this case.Looks like it could have been a professional hit after all.
Another screw up by London's best coppers..

''Barry George has walked free from court after spending eight years trying to prove he did not kill TV presenter Jill Dando.''

Barry George Cleared Of Jill Dando Murder | UK News | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Barry-George-Cleared-Of-Jill-Dando-Murder/Article/200808115063432?lpos=UK%2BNews_0&lid=ARTICLE_15063432_Barry%2BGeorge%2BCleared%2BOf%2BJill%2BDando%2BMurder)
At last.

He was obviously innocent from day 1 - there was not a scrap of evidence linking him to the crime.

Not sure about the coppers screwing up; this was political. The police always believed it was someone else, much closer to Dando.

Judge
01-08-2008, 22:33
At last.

He was obviously innocent from day 1 - there was not a scrap of evidence linking him to the crime.

Not sure about the coppers screwing up; this was political. The police always believed it was someone else, much closer to Dando.

True, there was pressure on to catch someone quick.Only one bit of evidence linked George to Dando and that was dodgy from day one..
Crown Prosecution Service is to blame then.I always thought it was because of what she did on Crimewatch.
I wonder how much compensation one gets for spending 8 years locked up.. Good job England doesn't have the death penalty..

trebor
01-08-2008, 22:34
..........He was obviously innocent from day 1................

Your talents are obviously wasted in your chosen profession. ;)

Gypsy
01-08-2008, 22:46
Your talents are obviously wasted in your chosen profession. ;)
Hardly - I followed the arrest and trial at the time, I was astonished it ever went to trial and then found the result unbelievable. And not just me, I didn't know anyone at the time who thought the guy did it. There was simply not a scrap of evidence and certainly no motive.

But Judge is right - this is the winning argument against the death penalty.

trebor
01-08-2008, 23:20
Hardly - I followed the arrest and trial at the time, I was astonished it ever went to trial and then found the result unbelievable. And not just me, I didn't know anyone at the time who thought the guy did it. There was simply not a scrap of evidence and certainly no motive.

But Judge is right - this is the winning argument against the death penalty.

Now while i will admit that it wasn't an open and shut case, I can't remember hearing from many people protesting his innocents when he was sent down.

As for the death penalty. Had there been one at the time, It's highly unlikely he would have swung anyway. Not until the appeal process was completely exhausted. That's the same appeal process that saw him eventually walk free.

Gypsy
01-08-2008, 23:27
Now while i will admit that it wasn't an open and shut case, I can't remember hearing from many people protesting his innocents when he was sent down.
. apart from the letters pages of the quality papers, and an ongoing campaign by private Eye, no.

MickeyTong
01-08-2008, 23:27
Yep, great news. At the time I thought George was an ineffectual, pathetic fantasist who wouldn't be capable of buying a pistol and doing a professional-style killing. I also thought there was a lot of pressure on the investigating officer to come up with a perpetrator and that George was the whipping boy.
He is due a lot of compensation. But I believe people now have to pay for their accommodation and food whilst wrongfully n prison.....bloody cheek.

trebor
01-08-2008, 23:32
apart from the letters pages of the quality papers, and an ongoing campaign by private Eye, no.

That would explain it then. ;)

trebor
01-08-2008, 23:34
...........I also thought there was a lot of pressure on the investigating officer to come up with a perpetrator and that George was the whipping boy...................

Now, that i could buy.

pullar
03-08-2008, 11:21
As for the death penalty. Had there been one at the time, It's highly unlikely he would have swung anyway. Not until the appeal process was completely exhausted. That's the same appeal process that saw him eventually walk free.

The appeal process after original sentence is finite. Having lost on appeal George would have been hanged. It's only because he was in prison that his supporters could keep fighting to get him released. Doubtless his sister and others would have continued fighting to clear his name post mortem. But the effect is not quite the same.

trebor
03-08-2008, 11:34
But you can appeal the conviction again. Just because you lost one appeal doesn't mean it's the end of the road.

Gypsy
03-08-2008, 12:25
But you can appeal the conviction again. Just because you lost one appeal doesn't mean it's the end of the road. You are wrong. You have to apply for Leave to Appeal and the judge decides whether there are grounds.

In this case the judge decided there were no grounds so george was sent to prison for life. If the UK had the death penalty he would now be dead.

This was NOT an appeal. It was a Retrial because after campaigning with a journalist from the daily Mail and Private Eye (probably the same journo, and with enormous help from policemen on the case who believed he had been "fitted up") the sister forced the courts to admit that there were sufficient doubts to allow a retrial - the key being that the so called forensic evidence was false: and the CPS' own firearms expert described the killing as only being possible by someone very cool, calm and very experienced with guns. George was none of those. Unsurprisingly that experts testimony was witheld from the court and george's solicitors at the time.


However the fact remains that he WOULD have been hanged because the appeals process had been usedup. This was a retrial.

pullar
03-08-2008, 12:35
But you can appeal the conviction again. Just because you lost one appeal doesn't mean it's the end of the road.

This is completely wrong. On conviction for murder you can appeal to the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division). If you lose there, which Mr George did, you can appeal to the House of Lords provided that either the Court of Appeal, or failing that, the House of Lords, gives you leave. I don't know if Mr George's case ever went to the Lords. Either way it makes no difference. Once you have lost your appeal sentence is carried out. With the death penalty that entails your death by hanging. A further appeal after that is somewhat redundant. In Mr. George's case sentence was indeed carried out, i.e. he was sent to prison. His solicitors and others continued to fight for him, and eventually they won through. But first they had to get permission for another appeal via the Criminal Cases Review Commission, which is not easy. The Court of Appeal then quashed the original verdict and remitted the case for rehearing. None of these stages occurred as a matter of right.

trebor
03-08-2008, 14:13
I think we are getting ahead of ourselves here.
First, there is no death sentence in Britain. So there is no current situation to quote.
IF it was to be re-introduced do you really think a case like the Dando one with George being convicted on questionable evidence would end in the death penalty with only one chance of a successful appeal? I think not.
It was a classic case of a mentally unstable individual with a low IQ and inconclusive evidence. No way in this day and age would he have been taken out and executed after failing one appeal.
I am not supporting the death penalty. In fact i am against it, on moral grounds. But to say the Dando case is an argument against the death penalty because of the risk of wrongfull conviction is not right.

Transparent Theatre
03-08-2008, 15:32
Meanwhile, an uncomfortably large number of media sources are once again circulating the idea that Dando was killed by a professional assassin from Serbia.

What are our feelings about the likelihood of this?

As far as it being a professional assassin, this does seem quite likely - the way in which the killing was carried-out (no witnesses, the dum-dum bullet, a clean and unobserved getaway) suggests an experienced and trained professional.

But Serbian? Britain was, of course, in the middle of a vicious war against Serbia at the time, and this might have been handy anti-Serb rhetoric put out for other reasons. However, Dando had - for reasons of personal conviction - presented a TV Charity Appeal for Bosnian orphans very soon before her death. It's postulated that a Serb already harbouring a grudge saw this program as a political provocation, and determined to be revenged on its Presenter.

How likely is this, do we feel?

Judge
03-08-2008, 16:12
The police didn't like the the Serbian connection because it would have meant that the killing would have been planned in only 3 days.The police say this is too short a time for a high-profile revenge killing..
In today's world 3 days is more than enough time.. Milosevic would have had men all around the world who were loyal to him..

I read this the other day..
''Israeli intelligence had warned Britain that Serbian "hit" teams had been sent to the UK to murder "soft" targets in revenge for the Nato bombing''.

The Serbian connection is well worth looking into..

Gypsy
03-08-2008, 16:35
The police didn't like the the Serbian connection because it would have meant that the killing would have been planned in only 3 days.The police say this is too short a time for a high-profile revenge killing..
In today's world 3 days is more than enough time.. Milosevic would have had men all around the world who were loyal to him..

I read this the other day..
''Israeli intelligence had warned Britain that Serbian "hit" teams had been sent to the UK to murder "soft" targets in revenge for the Nato bombing''.

The Serbian connection is well worth looking into..Despite the police ignoring the threats the BBC hired bodyguards for several senior staff who had been involved in a documentary about Serbian war crimes, as well as the Dando appeal which was actually for Kosovan refugees.

Having said that I find it hard to believe that the Serbs would do this to a talking head.

Motive has always been the key for me and you need to look closer to home for the culprit.

Judge
03-08-2008, 16:48
Motive has always been the key forme and you need to look closer to home for the culprit.

Something to do with her work on Crimewatch?It's Possible.

Transparent Theatre
03-08-2008, 16:59
Having said that I find it hard to believe that the Serbs would do this to a talking head.


Apologies for mixing the refugees for whom Dando appealed, thanks for putting that right.

I agree that it seems absurdly extreme to take-out the presenter of such an appeal. On the other hand, who else would they target? If a high-profile "teach them a lesson" target was wanted, then the researchers or producer of the Appeal would have had much less appeal. Although it may have been ordered from Belgrade, there's similarly no reason to discount a loose-cannon private individual (a Serbian war-criminal already hiding abroad? Lots of those would fit the bill) doing this on his own private initiative. In fact I find the hypothesis of an enraged nationalist nutter with a grudge-match and time on his hands more credible than a politically-ordered assassination (for which Dando, it seems to me, would have been small fry and not worth the effort and risk involved?). Tempers amongst Serbs abroad were certainly running high at the time - I was (by coincidence) at a birthday party in London on the evening the BBC showed the RAF bombing Belgrade, and some unpleasant scenes at the party followed... and the Serbs there were mostly those who'd left because of their hatred for Milosevic.

On the other hand, it's equally possible that the killer was just a loony with an imagined grudge against Dando, and there are probably more of those in Britain than the Serb population :(

My inherent conspiracy-theory paranoia quickly picks up on the not-entirely-coincidental arraigning of Karadzic in the same week... there are groups who would certainly benefit from an anti-Serbian witchhunt at the moment.

Transparent Theatre
03-08-2008, 17:02
301 Moved Permanently

trebor
03-08-2008, 18:32
Of course everyone now thinks George didn't do it. Why? Because the system says so.
The same system that said he did 7 years ago!

Gypsy
03-08-2008, 18:38
Of course everyone now thinks George didn't do it. Why? Because the system says so.
The same system that said he did 7 years ago!
AsI said before neither i nor my friends and most of my acquaintances at the time thought he could possibly have done it. Even those who thought he could have done it didn't believe he had simply because there was no evidence.And there has been plenty of dissenting voices ever since.

I guess it all depends whether you believe everything you read and watch or whether you challenge it.

trebor
03-08-2008, 18:48
....................I guess it all depends whether you believe everything you read and watch or whether you challenge it.

Your right. I'm just going with the flow on here! ;)

Transparent Theatre
04-08-2008, 01:16
AsI said before neither i nor my friends and most of my acquaintances at the time thought he could possibly have done it. Even those who thought he could have done it didn't believe he had simply because there was no evidence.And there has been plenty of dissenting voices ever since.

I guess it all depends whether you believe everything you read and watch or whether you challenge it.

But in the end a private individual, or even a support group, is powerless against a wrongful conviction. It's taken them eight years to prove that Barry George was wrongly charged - and of course, in the meantime, whoever really did it has had ample time to cover-over their traces... the chances of finding them now (when the Police will have been doing 0 on it for eight years) are extremely low.

Gypsy
04-08-2008, 01:47
But in the end a private individual, or even a support group, is powerless against a wrongful conviction. It's taken them eight years to prove that Barry George was wrongly charged - and of course, in the meantime, whoever really did it has had ample time to cover-over their traces... the chances of finding them now (when the Police will have been doing 0 on it for eight years) are extremely low.

I think that depends who did it.

If it was related to serbia then I would agree. If organised crime in the UK,not necessarily,but not likely. If it was someone closer to her then you never know. People make mistakes, and they will be feeling a lot less comfortable now.

A police inspector who had worked very briefly on this case told me what these crime reconstruction programs, like the one Dando worked on are all about. The purpose is not for the public to come and tell the police something new but rather for the public to confirm and provide evidence for what the police already know.

They will not be starting at zero.

Look for the hit-man, trace the Range Rover and ask who knew that she would be home at that time - it was unusual.

The police in Britain are actually very good at solving murders.

Flieger
04-08-2008, 09:48
Never heard of the person or case you two are discussing, but to be fair, Trebor's correct, a US death penalty case rests on far more appeals than one, and even if found guilty, the sentence of death is determined afterwards by another jury trial and by no means guaranteed either. So even if this George character had used up all appeals in determining his guilt, it's not a given he would've been sentenced to death even had the prosecutor decided to try the case as a capital one.

pullar
04-08-2008, 12:15
Never heard of the person or case you two are discussing, but to be fair, Trebor's correct, a US death penalty case rests on far more appeals than one, and even if found guilty, the sentence of death is determined afterwards by another jury trial and by no means guaranteed either. So even if this George character had used up all appeals in determining his guilt, it's not a given he would've been sentenced to death even had the prosecutor decided to try the case as a capital one.

This was actually a case in the jurisdiction in England and Wales. Trebore is completely wrong because he doesn't understand the first thing about criminal procedure. In England and Wales the appeal route is finite. Mr George exhausted it, and sentence was carried out. Had the death penalty existed in E&W at the time, he would have been hanged. And that is the end of it. That's why people have commented that it's a good thing the penalty was abolished, otherwise another innocent man would have lost his life.

Transparent Theatre
04-08-2008, 12:57
In England and Wales the appeal route is finite. Mr George exhausted it, and sentence was carried out. Had the death penalty existed in E&W at the time, he would have been hanged. And that is the end of it.

Entirely so. It's an interesting speculation, however, whether the absence of a death-penalty makes the Police more cavalier in their handling of such cases? Would they be so satisfied with circumstantial evidence and "confessions" wrung from an easily-led and simple-minded fantasist as Barry George - if they knew he'd dangle for it? On the other hand, removing the principal witness from any possible reopening of a case would prove a very effective way of making sure the guilty remained guilty - whether they'd done it or not. Only a very few determined relatives would push for clearing the record of a dead man's memory, and forcing an admission from the CPS of having hung the wrong bloke would be that much harder - what Home Secretary would want that around his heels?

There's been a clear case of prioritising "getting a conviction that would stick, and reassuring the public over Police ability" over "getting the man who killed Jill Dando" in this case.

Mere innocence is no excuse for the Met.

trebor
04-08-2008, 13:19
Entirely so. It's an interesting speculation, however, whether the absence of a death-penalty makes the Police more cavalier in their handling of such cases? Would they be so satisfied with circumstantial evidence and "confessions" wrung from an easily-led and simple-minded fantasist as Barry George - if they knew he'd dangle for it? On the other hand, removing the principal witness from any possible reopening of a case would prove a very effective way of making sure the guilty remained guilty - whether they'd done it or not. Only a very few determined relatives would push for clearing the record of a dead man's memory, and forcing an admission from the CPS of having hung the wrong bloke would be that much harder - what Home Secretary would want that around his heels?

There's been a clear case of prioritising "getting a conviction that would stick, and reassuring the public over Police ability" over "getting the man who killed Jill Dando" in this case.

Mere innocence is no excuse for the Met.

Barry George has to shoulder a lot of the blame for his wrongful conviction. His alibi was he couldn't have done it because he was stalking someone else but more importantly, he repeatedly lied to police during their investigation.
This will probably result in much reduced compensation if and when it's paid out

As for the "hit man" theory, he couldn't have been a professional because he left a spent cartridge at the scene.
Also, no one knew Jill Dando would be at the property in Fulham that morning. She turned up unexpectedly. She was living with her fiance at another address at the time.

Gypsy is right when he says "The police in Britain are actually very good at solving murders" They are. Most murder victims know their attacker but in this case she probably didn't. That makes it harder to solve.