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SalTheReturn
11-07-2008, 12:30
wonder why this sort of stuff happens on a REGULAR BASIS only in the UK, cant you really be a civilized country? Europe was shocked and our TV news just talked about this.

I remember my students years in London, I had to witness that sort of ghetto-criminality I only saw in movies.

Within the EU, the UK has no opponents when it comes to crime and above all crime committed by underaged.

this is even more shocking than the video about 11yo kids throwing rocks at the fire brigades.

enjoy it:


BBC NEWS | UK | England | London | Students stabbed and set alight (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7487126.stm)

Orion
11-07-2008, 12:54
Yeah, what is it with those Limeys? If they would just organize their criminals things would go so much more smoothly.

Italy murder fuels 'mafia' fears (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7317897.stm)

And, who knows, they might even turn a nice profit on it.

Organized Crime Pays Quite Well...in Italy (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/oct/24/italy.johnhooper)

But then we shouldn't just single out Italy...racism seems to be on the rise everywhere across European continent. And that is bad enough in and of itself.

Racism Rises Across Europe (http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2346228,00.html)

SalTheReturn
11-07-2008, 14:15
At this point Orion you must really be kidding

No one is denying the rest of Europe is immune from crime.

Let me tell you thought, as a EU national myself, it is extremely shocking to hear REGULARLY about such deaths and to listen the tv news reporting constantly about underaged crime which REGULARLY result in deaths.

You are obviously not a Brit yourself, because all of the Brits presents here, agree that the underaged crime, bullyism, etc... is a major problem in the UK. And to think that such problems exists in other EU countries is ok, but do not even try to compare. None of us, from Germany to Italy, to Greece and Spain, experience the crime problems registered in the UK.

Till just a few months the numbers reported 17 deaths in the UK all of which involving knives and teenagers.

Also only in the UK you may walk and see signs like "beware of your i-pod" or ride a bus and see boards saying "any assault on our staff will be...".
This show in what kind of crap the country reverse.

Orion
11-07-2008, 14:39
But they are trying a new approach...maybe all those little menaces to society needed was a hug!

Hug a Hoodie (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/jul/09/conservatives.ukcrime)

Orion
11-07-2008, 14:48
At this point Orion you must really be kidding

No one is denying the rest of Europe is immune from crime.

Let me tell you thought, as a EU national myself, it is extremely shocking to hear REGULARLY about such deaths and to listen the tv news reporting constantly about underaged crime which REGULARLY result in deaths.

You are obviously not a Brit yourself, because all of the Brits presents here, agree that the underaged crime, bullyism, etc... is a major problem in the UK. And to think that such problems exists in other EU countries is ok, but do not even try to compare. None of us, from Germany to Italy, to Greece and Spain, experience the crime problems registered in the UK.

Till just a few months the numbers reported 17 deaths in the UK all of which involving knives and teenagers.

Also only in the UK you may walk and see signs like "beware of your i-pod" or ride a bus and see boards saying "any assault on our staff will be...".
This show in what kind of crap the country reverse.

But what does the story you linked to have to do with youth crime? The people that have been arrested have all been adults. A 33 year old and a 23 year old. And they continue to question a 35 year old and a 25 year old.

Fresh arrest over student deaths (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7500612.stm)

Gypsy
11-07-2008, 14:55
But what does the story you linked to have to do with youth crime? The people that have been arrested have all been adults. A 33 year old and a 23 year old. And they continue to question a 35 year old and a 25 year old.

Fresh arrest over student deaths (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7500612.stm)

Please do not feed the troll.

Orion
11-07-2008, 15:14
Please do not feed the troll.

It's a guilty pleasure...

Bels
11-07-2008, 19:50
I hate to admit it, but it's true. For Britain has the second largest number of assault crimes in the world. Second only to the USA.

Check it out:

NationMaster - Assaults (most recent) by country (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass-crime-assaults)

Orion
11-07-2008, 20:43
I hate to admit it, but it's true. For assault has the second largest number of assault crimes in the world. Second only to the USA.

Check it out:

NationMaster - Assaults (most recent) by country (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass-crime-assaults)

That all well and good. But the raw number is misleading. After all, the USA is has several times the population of the UK. A better measure would be the Per Capita figures. US still beats UK...but falls to 6th over all (UK - 8th). But we are in good company...all us English speakers hanging out together..

USA - 6th
NZ- 7th
UK - 8th
Canada - 9th
Australia - 10th

Can't help but wonder if there isn't something that we all learned from the same (British) source...and RSA is #1 there is a link there too.

kebab
11-07-2008, 20:53
Stats can lie as well as each country has a different way of recording crimes. The stats are over 6 years old and depend on the whether or not the country provides the information or not as it is purely voluntarily.
The crime rate in the UK has fallen over the last six years and if you notice the UK has the second-highest overall crime rate in the world, but it just means they are more effective at recording crimes and keeping stats.
For example according to a recent survey (if you want to use stats) over 60% of Russians don't even bother reporting crime when it happens and Russia had the second highest murder rate in the world in 2002. Zimbabwe has an extremely low crime rate for example does that mean it is a safe society to live in?
And its stats on jails are completely wrong so please relax its not all bad::) As Malaysia and Papua and New Guinea have some of the highest jail populations in the world according to the stats provided::0

Orion
11-07-2008, 21:10
Stats can lie as well as each country has a different way of recording crimes. The stats are over 6 years old and depend on the whether or not the country provides the information or not as it is purely voluntarily.
The crime rate in the UK has fallen over the last six years and if you notice the UK has the second-highest overall crime rate in the world, but it just means they are more effective at recording crimes and keeping stats.
For example according to a recent survey (if you want to use stats) over 60% of Russians don't even bother reporting crime when it happens and Russia had the second highest murder rate in the world in 2002. Zimbabwe has an extremely low crime rate for example does that mean it is a safe society to live in?
And its stats on jails are completely wrong so please relax its not all bad::) As Malaysia and Papua and New Guinea have some of the highest jail populations in the world according to the stats provided::0

They don't say "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics" for no reason!

Albertina
11-07-2008, 21:35
I have no idea what this is all about (anti-aging beer in effect now), but statistics are always true, it's how we interpret it is stupid :verycool:

Bels
11-07-2008, 22:04
I have no idea what this is all about (anti-aging beer in effect now), but statistics are always true, it's how we interpret it is stupid :verycool:


Watch that beer! I've just been reading The Moscow Times, and alchohol is poisonous in Russia.

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/600/42/368867.htm

SalTheReturn
11-07-2008, 22:08
Stats can lie as well as each country has a different way of recording crimes. The stats are over 6 years old and depend on the whether or not the country provides the information or not as it is purely voluntarily.
The crime rate in the UK has fallen over the last six years and if you notice the UK has the second-highest overall crime rate in the world, but it just means they are more effective at recording crimes and keeping stats.
For example according to a recent survey (if you want to use stats) over 60% of Russians don't even bother reporting crime when it happens and Russia had the second highest murder rate in the world in 2002. Zimbabwe has an extremely low crime rate for example does that mean it is a safe society to live in?
And its stats on jails are completely wrong so please relax its not all bad::) As Malaysia and Papua and New Guinea have some of the highest jail populations in the world according to the stats provided::0

Oh my god what an educated person!!! now we even compare UK to Zimbawe ...how pathetic is that!!!

Uk is EU, and NO COUNTRY in the EU has the crime problems UK registers.
And no EU country has the consume of drugs UK registers, and no EU country has the underage pregancy rate UK has.
live with that.

And no crime is not falling in the UK, actually youth crime is rampant.

Bels
11-07-2008, 22:22
But as stated from a much more intelligent poster than you Sal, that Britain is far more efficient in recording and filing their crimes, than let's say Italy.

kebab
11-07-2008, 22:30
Sal why do you hate the UK so much, in fact you seem to hate everyone! Have you got some complex that you have use every means to try and prove that Italy is better than any other country. This article should make you proud then.
Seumas Milne: This persecution of Gypsies is now the shame of Europe | Comment is free | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/10/race.humanrights)

Transparent Theatre
11-07-2008, 23:44
because all of the Brits presents here, agree that the underaged crime, bullyism, etc... is a major problem in the UK. And to think that such problems exists in other EU countries is ok, but do not even try to compare. None of us, from Germany to Italy, to Greece and Spain, experience the crime problems registered in the UK.

Till just a few months the numbers reported 17 deaths in the UK all of which involving knives and teenagers.

Also only in the UK you may walk and see signs like "beware of your i-pod" or ride a bus and see boards saying "any assault on our staff will be...".
This show in what kind of crap the country reverse.

I've just arrived back from a month's stay in the UK. There was another news headline yesterday, but the neocon-loyal Murdoch press buried it in today's morning editions. It seems that record damages will be paid to the relatives of those tortured or murdered by British troops in Iraq. The parents of Musa - who was tortured by some gutless British wankers over an entire weekend before he finally died of 97 separate wounds - will receive huge compensation.

But what's odd about this? It's that the troops who murdered Musa were put on trial, but not one of them was found guilty. So his death's being paid-off in blood money, but no-one actually, errr, "did it". He just died all by himself, just like Jean de Menezes. The spineless sack of shite who is in charge of the British Army, Sir Richard Doughnut, has been denying for the past two years that the knuckledragging neanderthals he calls his "troops" had killed Musa. So he marched them up to the top of the hill... then he marched them down again, and yesterday he was calling Musa's murder "unacceptable", whilst refusing to attempt to find those guilty of committing it.

And whilst the British Govt actively connive at mass-murder and give out medals for it, why do we think that British kids - shown Prince Harry as a role model, shooting all those non-white towelheads - are suddenly turning into a murderous army of thugs?

I wonder why that would be???

Bels
12-07-2008, 00:21
That's nonsense, I remember the mirror showing photos of British troops torturing prisoners. Those photos were proven to be fabricated, with the intent of making British troops look bad. I believe the Mirror was heavily fined, and the editor was fired for allowing the photos to be published.

Orion
12-07-2008, 01:14
shooting all those non-white towelheads -

What a bunch of nonsense. And anybody that knows anything can see right through this because we all know it is 'Ragheads' not 'towelheads'.

Call it a cosmic 'shiboleth' because that kind of mistake is only made by intergalactic space aliens that have faulty translators!

w.meijerink
12-07-2008, 02:45
I have no idea what this is all about (anti-aging beer in effect now), but statistics are always true, it's how we interpret it is stupid :verycool:

I see I'm not the only one :nut:, but it's friday so after some :11158: and :rasta: is it sometimes to difficult to follew the rest of the crew.

Or maybe it's me and it is :bedtime:

Judge
12-07-2008, 09:54
The street gang culture that was seen in America(LA) is now hitting the streets of London.This is a well known fact.English police officers used to go over to America for help and see how the American police were dealing with the problem,the problem now is in England..


Edmonton, Leyton, Walthamstow, Tottenham, West Bromwich: Five Knife Murders In 24 Hours | UK News | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Edmonton-Leyton-Walthamstow-Tottenham-West-Bromwich-Five-Knife-Murders-In-24-Hours/Article/200807215031812?lpos=UK%2BNews_4&lid=ARTICLE_15031812_Edmonton%252C%2BLeyton%252C%2BWalthamstow%252C%2BTottenham%252C%2BWest%2BBromwich%253A%2BFive%2BKnife%2BMurders%2BIn%2B24%2BHours)

Transparent Theatre
12-07-2008, 17:54
That's nonsense, I remember the mirror showing photos of British troops torturing prisoners. Those photos were proven to be fabricated, with the intent of making British troops look bad. I believe the Mirror was heavily fined, and the editor was fired for allowing the photos to be published.

As usual, Bels, you are talking illiterate neocon crap.

BBC NEWS | UK | Iraqis to get £3m in MoD damages (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7500204.stm)

And what a coterie of neocon gutless twonks have "thanked" you for your gutless lies, eh?

Gypsy
12-07-2008, 18:01
As usual, Bels, you are talking illiterate neocon crap.

BBC NEWS | UK | Iraqis to get £3m in MoD damages (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7500204.stm)

And what a coterie of neocon gutless twonks have "thanked" you for your gutless lies, eh?

You are correct TT - the pictures were faked, but the story was true. This was known at the time.

At least Britain is free enough that the victims can use the law to get recognition and recompense-sadly not free enough to have the individual soldiers brought to account.

Bels
12-07-2008, 18:25
And as usual you talk a lot of anti British crap. I was talking about a previous incident and not this one small individual case of which you try to portray our whole British army as torturous pigs.

And looking at the profile of your thank you supporters, few of them as they are, I'm not impressed.

I would just like to show this:

In response to the compensation agreement, the MoD added: "All but a handful of the more than 120,000 British troops who have served in Iraq have conducted themselves to the highest standards of behaviour, displaying integrity and selfless commitment.

"But this does not excuse that, during 2003 and 2004, a very small minority there committed acts of abuse."

Not a bad record for British troops, don't you think?????????????

Bels
12-07-2008, 18:39
So for a example a number of British move into a hotel which has evidence of terrorist material such as bombing material. These troops may have well seen there closest friends blown to pieces, and are also highly psyched up for their own lives. So in there somewhere there are these nasty terrorists who have the intent to blow them up, or perhaps other innocent bye-standers.

And then you have some idiots who say that our troops, and our police should all be brought to justice!!! Get lost !!!!!

Transparent Theatre
12-07-2008, 18:39
Not a bad record for British troops, don't you think.

Questions in English are usually followed by question-marks. Perhaps you need an English teacher?

Of course, a gutless coward like you will always make excuses for torture and murder, and even claim that a few murders are acceptable??

And your spineless neocon friend Orion can always be relied on to support murder and torture.

Bels
12-07-2008, 18:53
I will say again, over 120,000 troops over a period of more than four years, a good record, don't you think???????????????? And it is after all war!!

And why on earth I should show someone who uses an electronic translator good grammar on this I don't know!!

Transparent Theatre
12-07-2008, 19:07
I will say again, over 120,000 troops over a period of more than four years, a good record, don't you think???????????????? And it is after all war!!

Like I said - it's gutless cowards like you who support the violent attacks in Britain. Because every time you say "weelllllllll, it's just a few little premeditated murders with 97 wounds inflicted over the course of a three-day weekend of torture and mayhem", w****rs like you give the green light to knife-fights, gang-attacks, rape and murder. And you don't even care. You're happy to accept violence as part of your neocon lifestyle, you actually need those murders to keep your fraudulent lifestyle going.


And why on earth I should show someome who uses an electronic translator good grammar on this I don't know!!

You're an illiterate to**er who's incapable of writing good grammar even if you try. You're a fraud and imposter, you can't even write English without basic mistakes.

Gypsy
12-07-2008, 19:19
So for a example a number of British move into a hotel which has evidence of terrorist material such as bombing material. These troops may have well seen there closest friends blown to pieces, and are also highly psyched up for their own lives. So in there somewhere there are these nasty terrorists who have the intent to blow them up, or perhaps other innocent bye-standers.

And then you have some idiots who say that our troops, and our police should all be brought to justice!!! Get lost !!!!!

The invasion and occupation of Iraq was and remains illegal in international law. Regime change is illegal.

There is however a moral justification that says that the existing regime is so vile it is necessary for it to be removed.

But if you are going to rely on a moral justification, where you are saying "we are morally superior to the existing regime", then you absolutely must live up
to it. If you do not you forfeit the justification of your actions.

This is the situation described here - and it is why the soldiers who did this must be brought to trial. Without that we are not morally superior - we are exactly the same.

There are some lines in a play, Thomas Moore I think, in which a man is cautioned against cutting down the protection of the law to get at his enemies. "I would cut down a whole forest to get at my enemies," he says. "Oh, and when they come for you, where will you hide?" replies the other man.

That's the point. When we uphold the rule of law, we are acting in our self-interest, not in the interest of criminals or terrorists. We can nail them with the rule of law, but if we destroy the rule of law, we make ourselves vulnerable to injustice. It's not just a terrorist who can be arrested and held incommunicado for an indefinite period of time. It's anybody the government thinks is a terrorist.

The rule of law is all that stands between us and the worst kind of government by the worst kind of people.

Orion
12-07-2008, 20:41
Bels

I wouldn't waste your time arguing with Transparent. He is a One Trick Pony. Look, this is a thread about normal everyday crime and he wants to talk about the war in Iraq. It completley consumes him. Since your country and mine have undertaken this mission to him they are worse than the the evil that they are fighting. He is incapable of differentiating between the two. He is completely blinded by his hatred...it has completely consumed him and others on this sight and put rational discussion on a whole host of topics beyond their abilities.

Save your breath and your keystrokes. The guy is a lost cause...reduced to nothing more than a "Useful Idiot".

SalTheReturn
12-07-2008, 22:07
The street gang culture that was seen in America(LA) is now hitting the streets of London.This is a well known fact.English police officers used to go over to America for help and see how the American police were dealing with the problem,the problem now is in England..


Edmonton, Leyton, Walthamstow, Tottenham, West Bromwich: Five Knife Murders In 24 Hours | UK News | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Edmonton-Leyton-Walthamstow-Tottenham-West-Bromwich-Five-Knife-Murders-In-24-Hours/Article/200807215031812?lpos=UK%2BNews_4&lid=ARTICLE_15031812_Edmonton%252C%2BLeyton%252C%2BWalthamstow%252C%2BTottenham%252C%2BWest%2BBromwich%253A%2BFive%2BKnife%2BMurders%2BIn%2B24%2BHours)

thank you for being honest.

Bels is surely right in saying UK is more efficient in filing crimes but IF you ask a random EU national...do you have a gang culture? do you have an issue with underaged people killing each other?

FOR BOTH OF THESE QUESTIONS THE ANSWER IS NO

SalTheReturn
12-07-2008, 22:11
Sal why do you hate the UK so much, in fact you seem to hate everyone! Have you got some complex that you have use every means to try and prove that Italy is better than any other country. This article should make you proud then.
Seumas Milne: This persecution of Gypsies is now the shame of Europe | Comment is free | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/10/race.humanrights)

I do not hate the UK and I lived there during university years and planning to move back pretty soon.

I am shocked that in a civilized world like UK you can have those sort of murders and you can see the sort of youth crime it belongs ONLY to devastated countries like the US.

Bels
12-07-2008, 22:37
I do not hate the UK and I lived there during university years and planning to move back pretty soon.

I am shocked that in a civilized world like UK you can have those sort of murders and you can see the sort of youth crime it belongs ONLY to devastated countries like the US.


Britain is growing in population, which includes having 285,000 people migrating to UK every year, and they can't cope with it. Perhaps that's the problem. And now to make MATTERS worse, Sal is also coming to the uk. :(

Didn't Russia have enough of him, and now he's coming to UK.

SalTheReturn
13-07-2008, 00:08
Britain is growing in population, which includes having 285,000 people migrating to UK every year, and they can't cope with it. Perhaps that's the problem. And now to make MATTERS worse, Sal is also coming to the uk. :(

Didn't Russia have enough of him, and now he's coming to UK.

Whilst most of the crime in EU countries can easily be attributed to immigrants, this is not the case of UK where a large share of violent crime is committed by 2nd/3rd generation immigrations (hence fully UK citizens) and white uneducated class.

It is very misleading to say immigrants are responsible for the crime which is actually committed by UK citizens.

Gypsy
13-07-2008, 01:09
Whilst most of the crime in EU countries can easily be attributed to immigrants, this is not the case of UK where a large share of violent crime is committed by 2nd/3rd generation immigrations (hence fully UK citizens) and white uneducated class.

It is very misleading to say immigrants are responsible for the crime which is actually committed by UK citizens.

It is more than misleading Sal. As you rightly point out the crime is committed by UK citizens. It is a fact that the immigrants to the UK over the last 30 years have been a huge benefit to the society, look at how well the asians from Uganda have done,landing with nothing and over 10,000 of them millionaires.

They have been a rich source of diversity that has helped our culture immeasurably. Furthermore their children excel academically, and as a fact are involved in very very little crime.

It is nothing but cynical racism to even attempt to blame them.

Transparent Theatre
13-07-2008, 01:43
look at how well the asians from Uganda have done,landing with nothing and over 10,000 of them millionaires.

Or indeed the jewish refugees from Communism in Romania, one of whom succeeded in becoming Home Secretary.

But it's peculiar how having succeeded so well, such people become forgetful of their own past, and start to blame immigrants for all the problems in Britain....

Gypsy
13-07-2008, 10:20
Or indeed the jewish refugees from Communism in Romania, one of whom succeeded in becoming Home Secretary.

But it's peculiar how having succeeded so well, such people become forgetful of their own past, and start to blame immigrants for all the problems in Britain....

Twas ever thus - us and them. No sooner do you move from "them" to "us" than you lose sight of your roots and blame the new "them".

SalTheReturn
13-07-2008, 12:45
I still remember reading an interview where a journalist asked a Nigerian "what is it like in Lagos?" they were discussing youth crime...

the nigerian answered that if in Lagos a group of thugs enter a busy bus and start molesting schoolgirls, passengers would kick them out or even beat them. He was shocked that the same thing in the Uk results in nothing but fearful passengers pretending not to see.

One of the most shocking things I had to listen when living in London was my croatian girlfriend "a group of black girls entered the bus and started beating up passengers".

How a country can be so primitive I really dunno...

Transparent Theatre
13-07-2008, 15:56
Following on from Bels's shameful denials of wrongdoing by British troops, today there are new revelations that British troops sexually molested a 14-year-old boy in Iraq.

While Brits like Bels claim that "a few knifings and murders are normal and ok with us", this level of violence will continue. It's endorsed by the neocons and approved of by Govt.

Gypsy
13-07-2008, 16:05
Following on from Bels's shameful denials of wrongdoing by British troops, today there are new revelations that British troops sexually molested a 14-year-old boy in Iraq.

While Brits like Bels claim that "a few knifings and murders are normal and ok with us", this level of violence will continue. It's endorsed by the neocons and approved of by Govt.

TT - I think it shows up those who believe in the rule of law and those who believe in the rule of the strongest. Right v Might.

If you believe in the rule of law then it must apply to everyone - indeed police and anyone in that capacity should have a HIGHER standard -not as Bels is arguing for a lower one, well actually he is arguing that they be held to no standard at all, they can do whatever they like.

The idea that the soldiers have escaped punishment makes me feel sick as well as angry.

fenrir
13-07-2008, 16:08
Following on from Bels's shameful denials of wrongdoing by British troops, today there are new revelations that British troops sexually molested a 14-year-old boy in Iraq.

While Brits like Bels claim that "a few knifings and murders are normal and ok with us", this level of violence will continue. It's endorsed by the neocons and approved of by Govt.

Instead of hijacking this thread for your Iraq obsession, maybe you should start a new one. Iraq has nothing to do with this.

SalTheReturn
13-07-2008, 16:27
our national news run another reportage: UK authorities are so worried about the knife-culture that 9 families out of 10 would agree in having a curfew set at 9pm for underaged.

Transparent Theatre
13-07-2008, 21:47
The idea that the soldiers have escaped punishment makes me feel sick as well as angry.

They've escaped punishment up to now. That's because of people like Bels and Fenrir, who don't believe there should be any punishment for premeditated murder, rape, or torture. Regrettably there's a large section of the British public prepared to wink at murder and rape when committed by squaddies.

However, the good news is that prosecutions are beginning in a limited number of high-profile cases. That number of cases will increase as demobbed soldiers who have evidence to offer no longer face the sledging they'll get for reporting such cases whilst still in the ranks - so hopefully they will come forward.

There are many more cases which are known by rumour, and undoubtedly more that are not yet known. The case of the 15-year-old boys forced to jump off a bridge into a river by Welsh squaddies is still infamous - not one of the soldiers involved was found guilty, even though both the boys drowned.



Today, 16:08
fenrir
This message is hidden because fenrir is on your ignore list.

Orion
14-07-2008, 12:56
I love it...everytime I see that Transparent has put somebody that disagrees with him on his "Ignore" list I can't help but have this image of him come into my head...

ultimotattie
14-07-2008, 12:59
I thought that was the guy from 'Right Said Fred' for a moment. :p

Orion
14-07-2008, 13:18
He kind of looks like George Michael to me...

Gypsy
14-07-2008, 13:53
our national news run another reportage: UK authorities are so worried about the knife-culture that 9 families out of 10 would agree in having a curfew set at 9pm for underaged.

If so why do the 9 out of 10 families not impose their own curfews then?

xSnoofovich
14-07-2008, 13:56
I see the same problems in the UK that I do in America - We have turned into a feel good society that has no shame, and lacks a moral compass.

xSnoofovich
14-07-2008, 13:57
If so why do the 9 out of 10 families not impose their own curfews then?

Hear Hear ! Good advice ! Well said :)

SalTheReturn
14-07-2008, 14:10
If so why do the 9 out of 10 families not impose their own curfews then?

and why you ask me?

SalTheReturn
14-07-2008, 14:13
I see the same problems in the UK that I do in America - We have turned into a feel good society that has no shame, and lacks a moral compass.

and the problem is that you are part of the most civilized area of the world: the European Union. None of our countries is used to the crap we have to listen REGULARLY from the UK.

Yesterday they interviewed a coloured guy who declared: "the knife is necessary for the war"

What war I wondered? I have lived in the UK and it is a shame that UK citizens allows stuff that is not up to EU standards.

We are not America, we are EU. Lets keep it clean.

Orion
14-07-2008, 14:13
If so why do the 9 out of 10 families not impose their own curfews then?

Many, many parents these days refuse to take the responsibilty of raising their children. They let the kids do whatever they want to do. I thnik, in large part, this can credited to the portrayal of 'cool' parents in the mass media. Very few want to be the teacher and disciplinarian that children require...they want to be their kids 'friends'. Sad and pathetic and their children grow up, and I use that rterm loosely, and as often as not they populate our jails and prisons. And so do the parents when they get caught throwing alcohol and sex parties for their children...things that I would imagine are unheard of if we were to exammine in detail the upbringing and parenting methods of the grandparents of today's children.

It might be interesting to note that the 'parents' of today were the children of the 60's and 70's.

Orion
14-07-2008, 14:17
and the problem is that you are part of the most civilized area of the world: the European Union. None of our countries is used to the crap we have to listen REGULARLY from the UK.

Yesterday they interviewed a coloured guy who declared: "the knife is necessary for the war"

What war I wondered? I have lived in the UK and it is a shame that UK citizens allows stuff that is not up to EU standards.

We are not America, we are EU. Lets keep it clean.

Gee, Sociologist Sal, what are we to make of all those utes that were running around Paris setting cars on fire in the last few years worth of news? Are those parts of France not considered to be parts of the EU?

Orion
14-07-2008, 14:47
and the problem is that you are part of the most civilized area of the world: the European Union. None of our countries is used to the crap we have to listen REGULARLY from the UK.

Yesterday they interviewed a coloured guy who declared: "the knife is necessary for the war"

What war I wondered? I have lived in the UK and it is a shame that UK citizens allows stuff that is not up to EU standards.

We are not America, we are EU. Lets keep it clean.

Hey Sal...

Take a look at this preview of a book on European crime...youth crime in particular. There is a very interesting passage on the bottom of page 53...

The few Italian studies that have approached the subject of youth gangs have not generally examined this phenomenon directly. As such, a considerable gap exists in our knowledge base, and this gap undermines our ability to understand and respond effectively to gangs.

European Street Gangs and Troublesome Youth Groups (http://books.google.com/books?id=prvzAS2GdnwC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=Youth+Gangs+Italy&source=web&ots=ML3z3Au9BG&sig=urQm33o-ym3I-xqwoJJGgfVF4RI&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA53,M1)

Seems like L'ignoranza č la felicitą

Guess that makes it easier for a EU'er like yourself to point the finger at the UK.

w.meijerink
14-07-2008, 15:08
Whilst most of the crime in EU countries can easily be attributed to immigrants, this is not the case of UK where a large share of violent crime is committed by 2nd/3rd generation immigrations (hence fully UK citizens) and white uneducated class.

It is very misleading to say immigrants are responsible for the crime which is actually committed by UK citizens.

I'm not sure for the UK, but here in the Netherlands 80% from the people who are in jail are immigrants of the 2nd/3rd generation.
So for here it's not misleading to say it, but it's reallity.
The different between the children of the 2nd/3rd generation and Childeren from let's say my children is that my children stay at home after 10 O'Clock and when they go out (Disco, bar, movie) i bring them by car and I pick them up, if they go by friends I want to know who and where they go.
For parents of the 2nd/3rd generations they have other rules i guess???

Bels
14-07-2008, 15:18
Sal! Your local newspapers are currently complaining about bag-snatching. And your countries' statistics claims that they are mostly immigrants causing the problems. If you don't know anything about this, then you are not reading newspapers.

Also I do believe there was much less crime in the 1950s and 60's in the UK. So there you go. And our police didn't need guns, of which they now need today, which is very unfortunate.

Bels
14-07-2008, 15:27
and the problem is that you are part of the most civilized area of the world: the European Union. None of our countries is used to the crap we have to listen REGULARLY from the UK.

Yesterday they interviewed a coloured guy who declared: "the knife is necessary for the war"

What war I wondered? I have lived in the UK and it is a shame that UK citizens allows stuff that is not up to EU standards.

We are not America, we are EU. Lets keep it clean.

The carrying of a knife or anything else that might be considered a weapon in any public area of UK is considered a serious offense. Even a penknife.

Let's not forget that Britain is building up for a General Election, and so there will be worst to come, as the conservitives relish in their crime policies.

SalTheReturn
14-07-2008, 17:38
Mejerink, I understand. The same over here where most of detainees are immigrants. Different in the UK where a[no racist or inflammatory language please - mod] cant no longer be named as immigrants. They are UK citizens living in places like Bradistan (Bradford).

Orion, parents can have no control over kids which are born to carry knives, use drugs and have sex like rabbits. You have no Pope and no sense of family in a culture where by the age of 20yo most of kids are free to explore the world on their own.

After lots of investigations around Europe I came to the conclusion that the more you stay in your parents house the less criminal you grow.

Orion, live with that: no EU country has the youth crime trouble you experience on a REGULAR basis.

As a result of that I may have to postpone my plan of moving to the UK. I wanna live in a clen place not in a shantytown.

Gypsy
14-07-2008, 17:44
Mejerink, I understand. The same over here where most of detainees are immigrants. Different in the UK where a [deleted by moderator] cant no longer be named as immigrants. They are UK citizens living in places like Bradistan (Bradford).

Orion, parents can have no control over kids which are born to carry knives, use drugs and have sex like rabbits. You have no Pope and no sense of family in a culture where by the age of 20yo most of kids are free to explore the world on their own.

After lots of investigations around Europe I came to the conclusion that the more you stay in your parents house the less criminal you grow.

Orion, live with that: no EU country has the youth crime trouble you experience on a REGULAR basis.

As a result of that I may have to postpone my plan of moving to the UK. I wanna live in a clen place not in a shantytown.

I'll just let the 9 O Clock news know you won't be coming.

Orion
14-07-2008, 18:05
Orion, parents can have no control over kids which are born to carry knives, use drugs and have sex like rabbits. You have no Pope and no sense of family in a culture where by the age of 20yo most of kids are free to explore the world on their own.

After lots of investigations around Europe I came to the conclusion that the more you stay in your parents house the less criminal you grow.

Orion, live with that: no EU country has the youth crime trouble you experience on a REGULAR basis.

Never denied that the US/UK have crime problems...

You don't have to live in your parents house to be brought up without and inclination towards criminal activity. Afterall, Sal, don't most youths, whose crime you are so concerned about, live with thier parents? If they didn't there would be a good chance that they were adults at that point. How many 14,15,16 year olds do you know that live on their own? Even in the US and UK those kids live with their parents. It is just that their parents don;t give a damn about the kids that they gave birth to...many of them just set their spawn out on the street and let whatever happens happen.

No body, no matter what country you are from, is "Born to carry a knife, etc..." Somebody teaches you to do those things.

(And, if you listen to the Lefties and Hollywood types they will tell you that there isn't anything wrong with the drug and sex parts of your complaint...so take it up with them.)

DJ Biscuit
14-07-2008, 18:13
Orion, I am pretty sure less fights and violence are a result of marijuana (illegal drug) than alcohol (legal drug).

Gypsy
14-07-2008, 18:16
Never denied that the US/UK have crime problems...

You don't have to live in your parents house to be brought up without and inclination towards criminal activity. Afterall, Sal, don't most youths, whose crime you are so concerned about, live with thier parents? If they didn't there would be a good chance that they were adults at that point. How many 14,15,16 year olds do you know that live on their own? Even in the US and UK those kids live with their parents. It is just that their parents don;t give a damn about the kids that they gave birth to...many of them just set their spawn out on the street and let whatever happens happen.

No body, no matter what country you are from, is "Born to carry a knife, etc..." Somebody teaches you to do those things.

(And, if you listen to the Lefties and Hollywood types they will tell you that there isn't anything wrong with the drug and sex parts of your complaint...so take it up with them.)
God you are so thick.

Read Sal's post again.

To be a mature, civilised society you need 2 things:-

1) Children living with their parents forever;

2) A Pope

Now do pay attention in future.

Orion
14-07-2008, 18:22
Orion, I am pretty sure less fights and violence are a result of marijuana (illegal drug) than alcohol (legal drug).

Yeah...I know..marijuana is the only thing that can be called a 'drug' as Sal referred to them, right?

And I have never heard of a junkie, pot or otherwise, stealing to support his habit...hunh? That would be shocking. You might even call that 'youth crime' if the junkie/criminal was under 18 years old.

Orion
14-07-2008, 18:28
God you are so thick.

Read Sal's post again.

To be a mature, civilised society you need 2 things:-

1) Children living with their parents forever;

2) A Pope

Now do pay attention in future.

You might want to take a remedial reading class yourself, there, Gypsy.

If you would notice I stated that most 'youths' would, by definition, live with their parents . So, living with your parents an abnormally long time, as Sal does,even if his goofy hypothesis was true, would only cut down on Adult Crime.

His "Pope" comment was just silly so I ignored it.

But, feel free to explain why kids in the US and UK, who live with their parents because they are still kids, commit so many crimes if it doesn't have to do with the lack of parental oversight/involvement and lack of morals/ethics/standards in today's society in those countries, regardless of where those morals/ethics/standards are taught.

Bels
14-07-2008, 19:08
So let's sort out this crime problem of which the pussycat Labour government has failed to do so, amongst other things. They promised to copycat the conservative government when they first came in, and failed miserably.

It's now time for the conservative government to return and show the weaklings how you really govern Britain with an iron fist.

Windup???? I hope so :)

Gypsy
14-07-2008, 19:49
You might want to take a remedial reading class yourself, there, Gypsy.

If you would notice I stated that most 'youths' would, by definition, live with their parents . So, living with your parents an abnormally long time, as Sal does,even if his goofy hypothesis was true, would only cut down on Adult Crime.

His "Pope" comment was just silly so I ignored it.

But, feel free to explain why kids in the US and UK, who live with their parents because they are still kids, commit so many crimes if it doesn't have to do with the lack of parental oversight/involvement and lack of morals/ethics/standards in today's society in those countries, regardless of where those morals/ethics/standards are taught.

WHOOOOOOSHHHH!!!!

Gypsy
14-07-2008, 20:04
So let's sort out this crime problem of which the pussycat Labour government has failed to do so, amongst other things. They promised to copycat the conservative government when they first came in, and failed miserably.

It's now time for the conservative government to return and show the weaklings how you really govern Britain with an iron fist.

Windup???? I hope so :)


Sal! Your local newspapers are currently complaining about bag-snatching. And your countries' statistics claims that they are mostly immigrants causing the problems. If you don't know anything about this, then you are not reading newspapers.

Also I do believe there was much less crime in the 1950s and 60's in the UK. So there you go. And our police didn't need guns, of which they now need today, which is very unfortunate.


The carrying of a knife or anything else that might be considered a weapon in any public area of UK is considered a serious offense. Even a penknife.

Let's not forget that Britain is building up for a General Election, and so there will be worst to come, as the conservitives relish in their crime policies.
FFS - you are supposed to be an english teacher.

These are basic errors.

With apologies to Turkgida.

w.meijerink
14-07-2008, 20:04
To be sure that children don't will walk on the wrong way, parents can do a lot for them education.
When I'm talking of my own children it was not simple to show them the right way for a social live, because young people here on the street are walking with knifes too, first I was bring them to there parents, but almost not one of them understand dutch, english, france or even german.
So after that it was for me easy to bring them to the police office when I saw them with a knife and don't worry after that the whole family wants to kill me!!!!
Second there was a few men who handle with drugs on the field next to my house where young children are playing, the police can do almost nothing, so a baseball stick works like a miracle for this people and after 2-3 times i never see them again.
So it was not easy to educated my children on the right way, but I did't.
First about drugs, I show them the movie "Children of Trainstation Zoo" (Kinderen of bahnhoff Zoo) a movie about children and parents who use drugs and live in Berlin-Zoo after that I take them to the police station to show them the jails and let them go inside to let them feel how it is to be inside a prison.
About wapons, i have show them all from stiletto till a browning 9mm a show them the risk to have a wapon and show them what happen when somebody was hit by knife or bullet, but also the danger what will happen if you have a knife of gun, because the other one will know that you have one and will use it faster.


But I have always say, when one of my children will walk outdoors with a wapon or will use drugs, I will break every bone in his body.

Wapons don't belong on the street and when you like guns, get educated visit the special school for it, get a license and know how to use safely, because guns don't kill but the people behind the trigger.

Orion
14-07-2008, 20:24
WHOOOOOOSHHHH!!!!

Missed the bus on that one, eh?
:11581:

Gypsy
14-07-2008, 21:27
Missed the bus on that one, eh?
:11581:

Maybe I was a bit obscure

aarden
15-07-2008, 20:42
Ok this is sick and horrible but where do you get off saying this sort of things only happens on a regular basis in the UK - that's just ignorant!

wonder why this sort of stuff happens on a REGULAR BASIS only in the UK, cant you really be a civilized country? Europe was shocked and our TV news just talked about this.

I remember my students years in London, I had to witness that sort of ghetto-criminality I only saw in movies.

Within the EU, the UK has no opponents when it comes to crime and above all crime committed by underaged.

this is even more shocking than the video about 11yo kids throwing rocks at the fire brigades.

enjoy it:


BBC NEWS | UK | England | London | Students stabbed and set alight (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7487126.stm)

Bels
15-07-2008, 22:23
Ok this is sick and horrible but where do you get off saying this sort of things only happens on a regular basis in the UK - that's just ignorant!


Yes completely ignorant, when most of us living in the actual country will never experience such nonsense, however we will read about it occasionally in our dreadful tabloids, who will give the inmpressionas to what every Brit will experience. But no doubt our old people will be afraid to come out at night, when it's not the norm. That's the way it is, newspapers prefer to show bad news and show the wrong picture to people as to what people are really living. Just the same as they like to dramatise certain famous peoplke as being great, of whom I don't want to know, or give a TOSS ABOUT.

Judge
18-07-2008, 14:01
It gets even worse.
This really is taking the p*ss..

Two police officers were attacked by a mob after asking a teenage girl to pick up litter she had dropped.



The pair were set upon by about 30 youngsters in central Croydon, south London.

One of the officers required hospital treatment for a bite wound after the attack on Wednesday afternoon.


police attacked by mob in croydon after asking teenage girl to pick up litter she had dropped | UK News | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/police-attacked-by-mob-in-croydon-after-asking-teenage-girl-to-pick-up-litter-she-had-dropped/Article/200807315046145?lpos=UK%2BNews_0&lid=ARTICLE_15046145_police%2Battacked%2Bby%2Bmob%2Bin%2Bcroydon%2Bafter%2Basking%2Bteenage%2Bgirl%2Bto%2Bpick%2Bup%2Blitter%2Bshe%2Bhad%2Bdropped)

SalTheReturn
18-07-2008, 14:16
Such Things Like Described By The Last Article Posted Happens Nowhere In The Civilized World.

This Is Even Worst Than The Schoolboys Attacking The Fire Brigades.

Shame On The Uk.

SalTheReturn
18-07-2008, 14:17
Ok this is sick and horrible but where do you get off saying this sort of things only happens on a regular basis in the UK - that's just ignorant!

I HAVE LIVED IN THE UK EXTENSIVELY AND READING ONE OF YOUR PAPERS MEANS YOU WILL REGULARLY DEAL WITH SUCH CRAP.

NEW ARTICLE IS POSTED TODAY.

THIS HAPPENS NOWHERE IN WESTERN AND EASTERN EUROPE.
RUSSIA HAS LESS CRAP THAN THE UK, WAYS LESS.

Transparent Theatre
18-07-2008, 15:08
Yes completely ignorant, when most of us living in the actual country will never experience such nonsense, .

Really? I thought you were living in Moscow? I wasn't aware you'd ever lived in Britain.

For the (Police) record, I was attacked by three kids with knives while sitting in a cafe in Lower Ground, London SE1, two years ago. I was the only customer at the time, and the two waitresses were behind the bar and called the Police. Luckily the arrival of the two friends I'd been waiting for shifted the odds a bit, and the kids made a run for it.

So your increasingly desperate attempts to claim that none of this happens are yet another of your lies, Bels.

Transparent Theatre
18-07-2008, 15:18
THIS HAPPENS NOWHERE IN WESTERN AND EASTERN EUROPE.


In fairness, Sal, the riots and car-burnings in Paris suburbs last year were the same kind of thing.

Orion
18-07-2008, 15:24
THIS HAPPENS NOWHERE IN WESTERN AND EASTERN EUROPE.
RUSSIA HAS LESS CRAP THAN THE UK, WAYS LESS.


Italy still is in Western Europe, right?


Italy condemned for 'racism wave' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7423165.stm)

In mid-May Italian police were forced to intervene to protect Roma Gypsies who came under attack from local residents in Naples, who set their camps alight.

w.meijerink
18-07-2008, 15:24
I HAVE LIVED IN THE UK EXTENSIVELY AND READING ONE OF YOUR PAPERS MEANS YOU WILL REGULARLY DEAL WITH SUCH CRAP.

NEW ARTICLE IS POSTED TODAY.

THIS HAPPENS NOWHERE IN WESTERN AND EASTERN EUROPE.
RUSSIA HAS LESS CRAP THAN THE UK, WAYS LESS.

Dear Sal,

This crap happend everywhere in the big cities in Europe (incl. Russia), for Holland it was starting in 1978 in some parts of Amsterdam (Bijlmermeer, Buiksloot, Osdorp) that young children (North Africa) starting to attack policemen and citizens, for Rotterdam, Utrecht, Amersfoort, Den Haag it was starting in 1980.
Our police and government has to fight hard to put down this new "game" but it still exist and from time to time we see short storries in our news paper about it.
The last order of our government is to check of children go to school and children younger than 16 years old who hang around on the street, the police can and will visit there parents.

SalTheReturn
18-07-2008, 17:16
In fairness, Sal, the riots and car-burnings in Paris suburbs last year were the same kind of thing.

Not the same things at all, not the same things at all 100%.

That was an isolated case OVERESTIMATED by the media, so OVERESTIMATED that when Parisiennes where asked about the riots they would reply "we saw it on tv, we know nothing about that"

In addition the reaction of both France and the EU was firm, and firmly those acts were condemned.

Are you a Londoner right? I will tell that most of US (western EU citizens) who lived there have witnessed stuff we have never witnessed back in our home countries.

EU has its troubles, but we do not have social diseases like in the UK where a schoolboy can be the worst of the criminals. We also do not have signs warning us "do not carry your i-pod".

SalTheReturn
18-07-2008, 17:20
Italy still is in Western Europe, right?


Italy condemned for 'racism wave' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7423165.stm)

In mid-May Italian police were forced to intervene to protect Roma Gypsies who came under attack from local residents in Naples, who set their camps alight.

Oh my god what a fool you are!!!

Gypsies are supposed to end up as the Jews...do not you get it yet? Not only they are persecuted here but they are also persecuted in their home countries such as Romania, Serbia, etc...

Also, whilst the italians could say "they rob my car, lets give them a harsh lesson", a 14yo schoolboy has no excuse for stabbing to death his mate or setting on fire policeman or throwing rocks to fire brigades.

We do not have that crap here, and if we have it is an isolated case.

Transparent Theatre
18-07-2008, 17:22
. We also do not have signs warning us "do not carry your i-pod".

And nor do Londoners. This only happens in your dreams, Sal. I have just (7 days ago) been in London for a month, and in all parts of the city... not only the centre, but in Dalston, Hackney, Crouch End, Hoxton, and even gor-blimey Gant's Hill. And no such signs exist.

Orion
18-07-2008, 17:30
Gypsies are supposed to end up as the Jews...do not you get it yet?

Well done, Sal. In case any one missed it before, thanks for sharing with us exactly who you are and what you think.

Fingerprints first...numbered tattoos later. (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/800003d6-4ed2-11dd-ba7c-000077b07658.html)

Bels
18-07-2008, 17:38
The real truth is that British crime rate has actually dropped by 45% over the past ten years. Knife crimes we don't know about yet, as they have only just recently been separated in statistics. And that is why sal is seeing so much fuss in the news recently.

The whole point of separating the knifing is so that the public, the government, and the police concentrate on tackling this problem. So it all has a positive purpose in the end.So let's all stop having suc a negative attitude about our country.

SalTheReturn
18-07-2008, 19:09
And nor do Londoners. This only happens in your dreams, Sal. I have just (7 days ago) been in London for a month, and in all parts of the city... not only the centre, but in Dalston, Hackney, Crouch End, Hoxton, and even gor-blimey Gant's Hill. And no such signs exist.

Liar.

I cannot remember exactly what was written but there are yellow signs warning about car thieves, leaving your belongings in the car, and flashing your i-pod. They are in Brixton, a 5 mins walk from the metro station and close to this club called the Mass.

SalTheReturn
18-07-2008, 19:12
The real truth is that British crime rate has actually dropped by 45% over the past ten years. Knife crimes we don't know about yet, as they have only just recently been separated in statistics. And that is why sal is seeing so much fuss in the news recently.

The whole point of separating the knifing is so that the public, the government, and the police concentrate on tackling this problem. So it all has a positive purpose in the end.So let's all stop having suc a negative attitude about our country.

negative attitude? none of you gives a damn thing about the Uk, i care more than you. I am here to fight those problems, what you do is living in Moscow surrounded by cheap booze and cigs.

Abe
18-07-2008, 19:27
negative attitude? none of you gives a damn thing about the Uk, i care more than you. I am here to fight those problems, what you do is living in Moscow surrounded by cheap booze and cigs.

Blimey Salthereturn. You actually love us....and there I was thinking that you were just trolling.

Anyway, between you and I, the knife crime is instigated by the Government. It's a win win situation for them. First: the population gets frightened and then the Govt pulls the plug on the criminals and everyone's happy again...and Brown gets reelected. Second: In the same way as certain perverts used to visit Belfast on holiday to exp0erience the Troubles, more tourists will visit England to see the knife crime...Third: We like it that way, crime, ASBOs, crime culture, people beating up little old ladies, people knifing others..etc...We have alwyas thrived on a criminal culture...

May I therefore respectfully suggest that you might wish to go to Belgium instead of England :) and may I also suggest that you might wish to stop listening to the news or reading the papers if this stuff offends you so much.

ultimotattie
18-07-2008, 19:36
A guy got stabbed in the head with an axe a few years back, it was a couple of hundred yards down the road from me. I live in a socially deprived town called Airdrie.

I still walk down the street though, there are far worse places I can think of to walk on a dark night.

Bels
18-07-2008, 19:53
[QUOTE=SalTheReturn;416184]negative attitude? none of you gives a damn thing about the Uk, i care more than you. I am here to fight those problems, what you do is living in Moscow surrounded by cheap booze and cigs.[/QUOTE

Did you you read me sal, our crime rate is down 45%. And it just proves how newspapers can deceive people.

Transparent Theatre
18-07-2008, 20:18
Did you you read me sal, our crime rate is down 45%. And it just proves how newspapers can decieve people.

Including you.

And you can't spell "deceive".

["i" before "e", except after "c" - perhaps you need English lessons?]

Bels
18-07-2008, 20:42
Analysis: Crime figures down
By Dominic Casciani
BBC News home affairs reporter
If you turned to the last two months' headlines for a sense of what is happening to crime, you would probably spend the rest of your days looking over your shoulder for an incoming knife-wielding hoodlum.

But the latest annual crime statistics for England and Wales could not be clearer about national trends: offences are down yet again and we are in the longest ever recorded period of falling crime.

While we in the national media may have been highlighting brutal knife slayings, the reality for most parts of England and Wales is completely different.

The government relies on two officials measures to work out what is happening to crime: offences recorded by the police and the 47,000-strong British Crime Survey (BCS) which captures experiences which do not always lead to a 999 call.

And the key to knowing if it is safe to walk the streets of Hackney lies in the relationship between these stats, flaws in the system, wider social or policing factors - and which newspaper you read.

Good news for government

The 2007-08 figures are generally good news. Recorded crime is down 9% to 5m offences.

The number of the most serious violence crimes has fallen by 12%. Recorded drug offences are the only one of eight key measures to have significantly risen - up almost a fifth on the previous year.

Overall, the British Crime Survey says the rate of offending on the streets of England and Wales today is the lowest it has been since 1995 - the longest recorded period of falling crime.

Violence offences

The current key public concern has been a fear of knife-carrying and gun-toting gang members running the inner-city streets of Britain.


HOW MANY ATTACKED? WHAT VIOLENCE VICTIMS SAID
One: 54% of violent incidents
Two: 13%
Three: 8%
Four plus: 25%
Source: BCS 2007-08

For the first time we have some proper figures on rates of knife crime - they were used in 6% of all violent incidents.

To put that in perspective, bottles or glasses were used in 4% of incidents and firearms in 1%.

Overall, there were just over 22,000 crimes of attempted murder, GBH, and robbery involving knives or "sharp instruments" - that is one-in-five of all the offences in those categories.

Almost 40% of serious wounding crimes and just over a third of all homicides involved a knife.

Gun crime is up 2% and "all homicides" up 3%. More detailed research on what those rises mean will come later in the year.

Concern over knife crimes has been concentrated on a number of terrible deaths in a number of key inner cities, chiefly London.

The Metropolitan Police say that knife crime in the capital is down 16% - 7,409 offences in all.

Fight night

But the majority of violent offences were committed by single young men - and the key factor behind that is booze.


CRIME FIGURES IN FULL
Most computers will open PDF documents automatically, but you may need to download Adobe Acrobat Reader.

Almost one million acts of violence on the streets of England and Wales are thought to have been committed by people who were too drunk to stop themselves having a go at someone else.
So what this all comes down to is a difference between perception and reality. We perceive there is a problem with youth gang crime - but the evidence suggests it may be more to do with delinquency, drunkenness and boredom. The reality is that the real source of most violent crime remains Friday and Saturday nights.

Crime has been falling in almost every developed nation, regardless of the specific crime-busting approaches by different governments.

So while six out of 10 people think crime is rising nationally, the risk of being a victim is at its lowest level since the BCS began in 1981. The statisticians report goes on to note that those most likely to say crime has risen a lot are also most likely to read a tabloid. And that's a damning sideswipe at the media that ministers would never be prepared to make.

We don't know why people think crime is rising - but the statisticians have say there's evidence that

Economic prosperity has helped cut crime - there is a powerful argument that China's cheap goods boom has meant it is not worth nicking a DVD player anymore.

But more importantly, police everywhere have far more sophisticated methods to solve crimes while homes and cars are far more secure than they were in the 1980s.

The question for policy-makers is whether these falls will be sustainable. Research in the past has suggested that economic downturns lead to more property crime. If we are on our way into the bad times this will be the figure to watch.


Story from BBC NEWS:
BBC NEWS | UK | Analysis: Crime figures down (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/uk/7511758.stm)

Transparent Theatre
18-07-2008, 20:51
They simply shifted the rules to make it "recorded crime".

If no-one comes forward to tell the Police, then officially there's not been a crime. And if the Police refuse to accept your Report, then there's still not been a crime.

Do you remember the Kurdish girl who was garrotted by her own uncle and his friends? She'd been to the Police three times to report death threats. But the Police said she was making it up, and didn't record it.

It's a great way of improving the statistics, isn't it?

Bels
18-07-2008, 20:57
:fudd::fudd::fudd::fudd::fudd:



They simply shifted the rules to make it "recorded crime".

If no-one comes forward to tell the Police, then officially there's not been a crime. And if the Police refuse to accept your Report, then there's still not been a crime.

Do you remember the Kurdish girl who was garrotted by her own uncle and his friends? She'd been to the Police three times to report death threats. But the Police said she was making it up, and didn't record it.

It's a great way of improving the statistics, isn't it? :10479::10479:



:fudd::fudd::fudd::fudd::fudd:

Transparent Theatre
18-07-2008, 22:50
That's the only answer you can come up with, Bels? You're even more gutless than I said before, aren't you?

Taking English lessons yet? Your posts would benefit from it!

Transparent Theatre
18-07-2008, 22:52
YouTube- BBC: Paris riots

SalTheReturn
18-07-2008, 23:22
I have not said they did not happen TT. I said that this was an isolated event.

Bels
19-07-2008, 00:09
I have not said they did not happen TT. I said that this was an isolated event.


But that's the whole point of your thread Sal, you brought up isolated incidents to give from what you read in newspapers and as to what you stated as your own observations of London. Thus giving the impression that Britain is the worst and most violent place for crime in the world. Which in fact that is not the case.

And to change the subject sightly, did you type banned below your name? or were you banned for a short period of time?

SalTheReturn
19-07-2008, 01:11
But that's the whole point of your thread Sal, you brought up isolated incidents to give from what you read in newspapers and as to what you stated as your own observations of London. Thus giving the impression that Britain is the worst and most violent place for crime in the world. Which in fact that is not the case.

And to change the subject sightly, did you type banned below your name? or were you banned for a short period of time?

usually AndyB bans me once a month. he loves me.

SalTheReturn
19-07-2008, 01:12
And Bels isolated events in France, regular events in UK.

How comes you never understand???

Transparent Theatre
19-07-2008, 08:38
And Bels isolated events in France,


Paris, Marseilles, Lyon, Toulouse... "isolated events"??

The problem, Sal, is that you work on the basis of "Sal never heard, so it never happened".

:(

SalTheReturn
19-07-2008, 10:31
Paris, Marseilles, Lyon, Toulouse... "isolated events"??

The problem, Sal, is that you work on the basis of "Sal never heard, so it never happened".

:(

TT, it was a two weeks drunken revalry thats all. So yes, if you consider frequency, it is surely an isolated case.

Sal hears and sees everything.

Gypsy
19-07-2008, 11:44
That all well and good. But the raw number is misleading. After all, the USA is has several times the population of the UK. A better measure would be the Per Capita figures. US still beats UK...but falls to 6th over all (UK - 8th). But we are in good company...all us English speakers hanging out together..

USA - 6th
NZ- 7th
UK - 8th
Canada - 9th
Australia - 10th

Can't help but wonder if there isn't something that we all learned from the same (British) source...and RSA is #1 there is a link there too.
Yes is the answer.

Clarkson did a series a while ago on what it meant to be British; what all the fuss about Britishness and tradition was really all about.

At the end it came down to - we like fighting,and we are good at it.That's how we built the biggest empire in history and turned the globe pink.

So it is not a coincidence to see the "Anglos" all together.

Bels
19-07-2008, 12:53
And Bels isolated events in France, regular events in UK.

How comes you never understand???

Sal! Britain has a 45% reduction in crime, do I need to spell it out to you. You either believe on intentional increased reports from newspapers of violent crime to get the wrong picture, or you believe in the real facts.

Due to illusions caused by newspaper stories, you have grannies scared to walk out of the house in fear of being attacked.

Malypense
19-07-2008, 15:48
Sal! Britain has a 45% reduction in crime, do I need to spell it out to you. You either believe on intentional increased reports from newspapers of violent crime to get the wrong picture, or you believe in the real facts.
.Where do these "real facts" come from?

Bels
19-07-2008, 16:01
Where do these "real facts" come from?

I think I've pasted enough here, don't you. But if you read read newspapers online you would already know. The latest crime figures have only just recently been issued. Or why not try a simple google search.

Bels
19-07-2008, 16:08
A recent statement from the BBC website news is there is good news for the current government, as the crime rate has dropped. And that's just a small sample of what news you can find.

Gypsy
19-07-2008, 16:39
I think I've pasted enough here, don't you. But if you read read newspapers online you would already know. The latest crime figures have only just recently been issued. Or why not try a simple google search.

Whoooooosshhhhhh!!!!!

DJ Biscuit
19-07-2008, 16:54
I think it's extremely unfair of you Gyspy, entering into a battle of wits against an unarmed opponent.

Bels
19-07-2008, 17:46
That's what the thread is called, isn't it? Again the UK. So let's talk about it.

Just to give you some idea to how confusing British news headlines can be when giving facts:

Britain spends the least from it national wealth budget in its national defence in comparison to many other countries. For example France spends much more.

Britain has the highest budget of arms per year in comparison to the rest of the EU.

Britain contributes the most to the UN in regards to the number and activity of its troops. That is taking into consideration the size and population of the country.

So which headline is true, and which is false?

Gypsy
19-07-2008, 18:11
That's what the thread is called, isn't it? Again the UK. So let's talk about it.

Just to give you some idea to how confusing British news headlines can be when giving facts:

Britain spends the least from it national wealth budget in its national defence in comparison to many other countries. For example France spends much more. its national wealth budget (whatever that is) on its national defence. You spend money on things. Prepositions are confusing in English.


Britain has the highest budget of arms per year in comparison to the rest of the EU.

Britain contributes the most to the UN in regards to the number and activity of its troops. That is taking into consideration the size and population of the country.

So which headline is true, and which is false?

Well they could all be true, but as you haven't supplied any relevant information there is no way we could know. It would have been better had you posted the headlines rather than doctor them and show that you didn't understand them.eg what is a "national wealth budget" and a budget of arms per year?I've never heard of either.

So,a pointless post really.

DJ Biscuit
19-07-2008, 18:13
its national wealth budget (whatever that is) on its national defence. You spend money on things. Prepositions are confusing in English.

Well they could all be true, but as you haven't supplied any relevant information there is no way we could know. It would have been better had you posted the headlines rather than doctor them and show that you didn't understand them.eg what is a "national wealth budget" and a budget of arms per year?I've never heard of either.

So,a pointless post really.


I have to agree, I studied economics and have never heard of either of those.

As they appear to be different, albeit meaningless titles, all statements could be correct.

SalTheReturn
19-07-2008, 18:38
I have to agree, I studied economics and have never heard of either of those.

As they appear to be different, albeit meaningless titles, all statements could be correct.

you studied economy? i thought you were the arty student type:9456:

DJ Biscuit
19-07-2008, 18:41
You are right actually Sal!

I studied Economics at 'A' Level, then Political Science, Philosophy and The Sociology of Politics, Society and Economy at University. Then I went onto an arty college and studied for a Diploma in Acting and Theatre Studies.