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tbill
03-06-2004, 17:13
Please excuse the graphic imagery

One of the joys of the Atkins diet is that in the first few days your body has to adjust to burning fat and protein versus burning Carbs. The result is you feel crappy and you have to run to the toilet every few minutes. That might be an exaggeration, but you do feel sort of sick. I have been trying to get started again only finding new reasons to drink a beer or 80. So, now I am serious. I want to get this over with. Get skinny so I can walk around Garbushka all day without collapsing from exhaustion or stand in a crowded bar without sweating like a really obese pig with a glandular problem.

Anybody else doing Atkins and want to talk about the results?

P.I.M.P.
03-06-2004, 17:17
I need to lose a ton of weight but I can't eat just protein and fat day in and day out...

tbill
03-06-2004, 17:26
Originally posted by P.I.M.P.
I need to lose a ton of weight but I can't eat just protein and fat day in and day out...

You have to for the first couple of weeks to a month. It can cause intestinal distress, or the shits for you laymen. The first thing you chould add to your diet is lettuce.

Sounds harsh but the diet works.

http://atkins.com/img/assets/620/kris_jmaeff_before172x189.jpg


Another fat guy gone thin.
http://atkins.com/img/assets/620/kris_jmaeff_after172x189.jpg

peyote
03-06-2004, 17:27
sorry i don't remember where, it was a long time ago, but i do remember my friend gave me access to a medical site where i read serious studies trashing the atkins diet...

it's all very simple:

- eat less. have a balanced diet (a bit of everything)
- consume those calories (a regular walk can do the job)

and most important: all those crazy exercises (aerobics anyone?) which give you a high heart rate. that doesn't work. that only gives you heart capacity. heart rate should be at all times in a moderate level (90-110). stretching exercises (like tai chi and the like) are the best. also those tibetan exercises, those 5 or 7, i forgot. they work miracles. for body and soul.

good luck and don't pay too much attention to the looks our f*** up systems demand from us infidels...
life is short, play high!
:D

tbill
03-06-2004, 17:37
Peyote,

There have been a number of studies recently that have vindicated Atkins. The general concensus was that eating lots of red meat would cause your cholesterol to jump and would produce heart disease. The oposite has been shown to be the case. Lately, some nutty animal advocacy groups have been trying to discredit Atkins. One of the groups got their hands on Atkins autopsy and circulated it. It showed Atkins weight was around 250 lbs. but that was a result of the way he died. His corpse had retained a lot of fluid.

Here is an article about a guy suing the Atkins estate with the help of an animal rights group named, "Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine." Now who can argue with responsible Physicians? :p

peyote
03-06-2004, 17:43
i agree with you, tbill, a lot of biased stuff out there... i just remember a specific study really trashing almost all kinds of diets (including atkins) for their usually narrow approach regarding a balanced diet, so it was not specifically against atkins but included anyway...

oh god, please save me from animal rights wackos!
they're knocking at my door!
:D

tbill
03-06-2004, 18:24
I agree about the not caring about what you look like. I had this approach for many years but it started to effect my health. I snapped an ACL in 1997 skiing (weighed about 260) and I had back surgery last year (weighed about 270). I had gotten over 300 for a few years, no idea how long because I refused to get on a scale.

I also love animals, tasty animals.

Polia Ivanova
03-06-2004, 18:36
I lost quite a lot of weight doing Atkins (from 13 to under 11 stones in three month – 1 stone=14 lbs). Unfortunately when I got carbs relaxed I started to put it back so as any eating plan (I cannot call Atkins a diet really) one should stick to it with complete dedication. And despite all this “complex carbohydrates give you energy” rubbish I felt great. I found it more difficult the second time and I have to boost the metabolism with L-Carnitine, chromium and other supplements. Besides I like to enjoy odd (three, five, etc) glass of wine which doesn’t help either.

The one thing that I learnt on Atkins is that all people are different. What is good for one is poison for another. And a lot of people including myself cannot do carbs at all, if they want to retain comfortable weight.

We had a few TV programmes here that were accusing Atkins of all sins but during commercial breaks (cornflex, chocolate bars, crisps and other junk food) I realise that contents of anti-Atkins programs are defined by those who order commercials. Hardly a surprise.

Try it and if you feel it is for you enjoy it.

Probably quite a difficult thing in Russia to find proper food. The way they label the stuff is awful. I bought salamy sausage in Moscow and it had sugar in ingredients but there were no information about carbs at all (only calories fat and protein). And can you buy Slimline Tonic? Some juices give information only about calories. It is quite misleading here as well. People think Red Bull – famous energy drink is full of sugar but it actually has less sugar than orange juice or standard Coke.

tbill
03-06-2004, 19:45
I don't know how the food labelling works in Britain. In the US, food is broken down by carbs, fat and protein w/ a list of percentages of daily recommneded vitamins. Made the carb counting easier. Here, I am staying away from processed foods. You never know what is in them.

P.I.M.P.
03-06-2004, 20:11
I need an entire lifestyle change...

I weighed 133 pounds (60.5 kilos) in my Marine days when I was running a good 7-10 miles every morning. That was way too thin at a height of 6 ft (181 cm) but I was in marathon shape and passed my physical fitness tests with perfect scores.

Now, just 7 years later, I weigh 282 pounds (128 kilos). It doesn't get worse than that.

I picked up a gym membership less than 2 weeks ago but my doc told me I can't do any more than 6km/hr on the treadmill for now or else I'll screw up my knees.

The main thing is to get your metabolism going again. I used to eat an entire pizza pie for dinner before running the next morning and I would still stay at a steady 133 lbs.

If I eventually find a middle ground between the two I'll be happy.

exyabloko
03-06-2004, 21:07
Although, Atkins diet is quite popular now in states, I have read somewhere hi was overweight himself and has heart problem, high cholesterol and cetera. ( and , what a surpise, his wife is Russian!)

I think diets are not work in general, you just need to change your lifestyle: little more exercise and healthy food in smaller portions.

Polia Ivanova
03-06-2004, 23:02
Originally posted by exyabloko
little more exercise and healthy food in smaller portions.

That is the most important question with Atkins – what is “healthy food”? No fat, stuffed with sugar and starchy stuff cereal bars or prawn cocktail? Atkins eating plan encourage exercise but revolutionize “healthy food” meaning – everything carb free or carb low and fiber high is healthy. Not Kellogg’s or pasta.

Don't just say "healthy food" - healthy for you and healthy for me are different things because I metabolize carbs differently. There are some people allergic to certain foods or unable to metabolize proteins – they need different food, not women’s magazine “healthy” – different. I tend to overproduce insulin – if I eat something with white bread half an hour later I do not remember eating at all – I am hungry and hypoglycemic.

Dr. Atkins didn’t die from a heart disease – he fell on black ice and had a head injury. He was normally looking 70 something years old and he was great.

Polia Ivanova
03-06-2004, 23:21
Originally posted by P.I.M.P.

The main thing is to get your metabolism going again. I used to eat an entire pizza pie for dinner before running the next morning and I would still stay at a steady 133 lbs.



So can my landlady. She drives home from work eats entire pizza with half a bottle of red wine, goes to bed and keeps her 100 lbs. We hate people like this but it only proves that everybody is different.

polly
03-06-2004, 23:34
PIMP -- if you have knee/back troubles try non-impact stuff like swimming. (gee, if yuo can find a pool that's open in the summer
=\

tbill
03-06-2004, 23:48
PIMP, I don't know how old you are but i am 37 and metabolism starts to head down in your mid-30's. You will never be able to eat like you did when you where in your early 20's, unfortunately.

I know all the science, as well as a layperson can, but I like Atkins because I only have to worry about eating carbs. No counting calories. Plus, if i pig out and eat a 20 ounce steak it doesn't ruin the diet.

exyabloko
04-06-2004, 01:24
I read the article about Calorie Restriction Society. This is something very interesting. Aside from being on the diet they are trying to slow down their metabolism to prevent aging, diseases and stay thin and healthy. They take vitamins and fasting from time to time and they claim that hunger is psychological habit!?

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/05/13/sci-tech/calorie040513

exyabloko
04-06-2004, 01:31
another one

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64170-2004May3.html

Polia Ivanova
04-06-2004, 12:06
I read about experiments on mice that the ones who got about half of what others normally ate lived about 60% longer and their tissues showed less damage from free radicals.
I think this one and Atkins can go together very well because one of the Atkins’ best side effects – suppressed appetite, and one can do two little high protein meals a day (like scrambled eggs for breakfast and chicken something for late lunch – less than 800 kcal). And Atkins encourages vitamins and supplements too.

Ghost
04-06-2004, 12:11
Did atkins for 3.5 weeks, lost about 8 or 9 kilos est.

I felt horrible for the first few days from lack of sugar. Didn't have the toilet thing thank God. But the sugar lull is killer. You get past it in the first few days when your body remembers how to burn fat for energy.

legspreader
04-06-2004, 12:27
i've got one for all of you. I just completed it after a long trip to the states. its called the master clense it consists of 4 liters of water 7 lemons and 8 oz of pure maple syrup. This mix tastes pretty good maple lemonaid but then you add as much cayyene pepper as you can take. The first couple of days really suck but you have plenty of energy while you're on it. all you can drink for 10 days is this mix and water and no food what so ever. I weighed 101 kg before my trip gained god knows how much weight and ended up at 96.7 kg when it was done. not only a diet but it cleans out your system. now back into the gym eating less and drinking less ;)

rantandrave
04-06-2004, 13:15
Ok, I admit to not having read most of the posts on here, but I am going to reply anyway. Atkins is a highly dangerous diet, and there is a group of physicians in the US suing the Atkins estate on behalf of people who have suffered serious medical ailments as a result of following the diet. In addition to the fairly well-known fact that a high-fat diet stupendously increases your risk of clogged arteries, and thus related heart disease, here's something you might not know: a high protein diet (even one relatively low in fat) puts a tremendous strain on your kidneys (I could go into the biological details, but I wont at this time). This puts you at risk for kidney disease/malfunction, in the most extremem cases necessitating dialysis or even transplant. In more mild cases, it greatly increases your risk for kidney stones.
You lose weight on Aitkins, initially, because your body is starving, and cannabalizing itself. This is not healthy.
Food production, from its very inception about 9,000 years ago, has focused on carbohydrates (wheat, rice, corn, barley, potatos), for a good reason! It is a serious mistake to disregard millenia of human experience in favor of a fad which, by the way, was started by a man who died severely overweight, and with heart disease.
There is only one healthy way to control your body weight. Eat a BALANCED diet and excercise. That doesn't mean you have to kill yourself at the gym 6 hours a day, but without physical activity, all the diets inthe world are doomed to failure.

I am sorry if iI've offended anyone, but I firmly believe that Aitkins and related diets are supremely unhealthy, to the point of being very dangerous, and I hate that so many people are duped by them. If anyone would like to take issue with anything I've said, I would be happy to provide links to legal briefs and scientific studies.

Be healthy!

rantandrave
04-06-2004, 13:21
Originally posted by tbill
One of the groups got their hands on Atkins autopsy and circulated it. It showed Atkins weight was around 250 lbs. but that was a result of the way he died. His corpse had retained a lot of fluid.


It is medically impossible for a corpse to retain in excess of 80 lbs of water weight, which is what it would have to to have been, had his corpse been of normal weight when he died. Have you seen pictures of him fromt he last decade? I wouldn't get on a ski-lift with the man.
As I said in my previous post, ardent supporters of Aitkins insist on disregarding not only millenia of human experience, but also the objections of the VAST majority of modern-day nutritionists and physicians. So, I guess everyone else in the entire world, including all of human history, had it wrong, and this one, fat messiah is the guy you should listen to?

peyote
04-06-2004, 13:54
i saw the calorie restriction experiment on the discovery. truly interesting. now, exyabloko, they can't be serious thinking hunger is a psychological "habit". hunger is controlled by a center in the hypothalamus and that's ABC from med school. this center receives signals from the gastric system telling "we have eaten", stop bothering with those signals requesting that i eat more... obviously some people have a problem with this mechanism and they're always hungry. the psychological aspect is the hunger center is in an area that also controls hormones and "emotional" processes. let's not forget the "psychological" in the end is the result of a chemical process. it's not something in the air. besides, all disorders have a psychological and a somatic element. no exceptions.

now, those high protein meal diets and the restriction diet to live longer... well, ageing is a process mostly affected by free radicals, among the worst those being the result of protein metabolism and who has to do that dirty job? yes! you have guessed right: your kidneys. so i agree with ranty. in other words: eat tons of high proteins so you can age quicker, live less and die happily thin. that is, if you're lucky.

there is nothing like a balanced diet and moderate exercise, so don't get blinded by the light wrapped up like a "dutch"... ;)

and don't think i'm a vegetarian wacko... well, i am but in another sense... :D

tbill
04-06-2004, 13:56
First, Atkins weighed about 200 lbs. at the time of his death. It is medically possible to retain fluids when you are in a coma. Secondly, His heart disease was hereditary.

Article discussing the lawsuit (http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/diet.fitness/05/27/atkins.suit.ap/index.html)

Artticle showing weight gain during the coma (http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10/atkins.widow/index.html)


As I said in my previous post, ardent supporters of Aitkins insist on disregarding not only millenia of human experience, but also the objections of the VAST majority of modern-day nutritionists and physicians. So, I guess everyone else in the entire world, including all of human history, had it wrong, and this one, fat messiah is the guy you should listen to?

Rantandrave, you sound like a zealot and your name is rantandrave so I am not going to take any attacks that I feel will follow this post seriously. I just thought I would present some studies of low carb diets that have disproved what you are claiming.

Study (http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/diet.fitness/11/19/otsc.atkins.diet/index.html)

Study (http://www.annals.org/content/vol140/issue10/index.shtml)

List of studies supporting Atkins from the Atkins website (http://atkins.com/science/overview/articlesaboutresearch.html)

DPG
04-06-2004, 14:12
It seems that the most dangerous thing about the Atkin's diet per se is that it gives one the capability of drinking a bottle of vodka a day mixed with diet coke without suffering from hangovers!;) [Some of you who contributed to the thread know who, erm I mean what I am referring to!!]

Also, I would say that the best way to lose weight is simply reduced calories and increased exercise. Lowering carbs (non-comples ones) does assist because the body have less to convert to glycogen and then into fat when the energy remains unused. The overall most important thing is to get the metabolism through the roof, and for that you should eat 6 small meals a day, drink a LOT of water and exercise frequently.

Tbill - not eating processed foods is a good call - they say that if you want to achieve a truly lean physique, never eat anything in a packet!

The other thing to be aware of though is exactly what the weight you are losing is composed of - are you losing water, fat or muscle? Clearly, it is the fat that is the thing which people try to rid themselves of, and not many know that the best way of really supercharging your body's metabolism is to have as much muscle on there as possible. Muscle burns fat in order to recover and grow, even when you are involved in sedentry activity - get down to the gym Tbill, not only will it speed things up, but also, when you have burnt all the fat you won't look like a skinny lamp-post, but rather a lean mean fighting machine!!;)

peyote
04-06-2004, 14:17
hey, tbill, there's some interesting stuff there... the problem as usual is that all this 'i said" "you said" between doctors doesn't give much space for scientific truth since one needs to watch carefully where the money (and bias) is coming from. this applies to both sides of the atkins world... although personally i'm for the balanced diet against all others.

now, i'm interested, how come the wife didn't sue the hospital for letting him gain over 60 pounds? that sounds to me like medical negligence...

on the other hand, a cardiomyopahty, literally a cardiac muscle disorder, is not just one disease but a group... and that's why i never take serious non-medical press talking about medical issues...

... much less those CNN wackos! ;)

the internal medicine site... that's a good one!

Polia Ivanova
04-06-2004, 14:17
I do not know where rantandrave works but unless he proves he has no interest in high carb business I won't believe a word. Carb food is addictive. Atkins cures this addiction but there are others who want us buying doughnuts forever.

They show some fat to slim transformations here and for people who are extremely big so that doing exercise is impossible for them the only way to bring the weight down so one can exercise is Atkins (they called it high protein there).

Besides there are other studies showing that there is no adverse effect on kidneys.

tbill
04-06-2004, 14:34
Peyote,

Personally, I am a vagitarian.

The reason the Atkins diet has been getting so much press in the past few years in that there have been a number of studies by reputable institutions supporting the diet. Scientific knowledge is an accumulation of tests. If something comes out in the future saying that Aktins is deadly then I will have to rethink everything.

So far, I really like being thinner. I went off the diet last summer because I want to enjoy the mead I had brewed. The funny thing is, I did not change my eating habits and eventhough I was drinking mead, I did not put on any weight.

DPG, I have given up on the idea that I can drink vodka and stay on this diet. Maybe white wine, but vodka kills me.

rantandrave
04-06-2004, 15:00
Polia-
Rantandrave is a journalist, and SHE has no connection to the 'carb business'. Your messiah, Dr. Aitkins, and by extension his estate, is the one making a profit by brain-washing you into fearing carbs.
I became a vegetarian at age 10, and since then have taken an active interest in my nutritional health. I have done a lot of research and spoken with many nutrionists and doctors. I have also read up on historical eating habits, and I keep coming back to one thing. Humans have subsisted for thousands of years on a diet composed in large part of carbohydrates. (Emmer wheat, einkorn wheat, and barley were the first three major crops domesticated by humans, in the Fertile Crescent about 9,000 - 11,000 years ago. Rice and millet were domesticated first in China, slightly later. Corn was domesticated in Mesoamerica several thousand years later.) Only much later were animals domesticated, and once they had been, they provided a small part of the diet. Wheat, for example, is between 8 and 14 percent protein. And if combined with a pulse, such as lentils or beans, results in a balanced diet which sustained people and the development of civilization... right up until about the 1970s, when Aitkins cam on the scene.
Now, are you really going to tell me that for all those millenia, people were doing the wrong thing? That is patently absurd. They were healthier, and one of the major reasons was that they WORKED, and ate a balanced diet. Aitkins developed his theories to placate people who were simply too lazy to do what a human body must to be healthy and fit - EXCERCISE.

tbill - As to your mention of tests, might I strongly suggest that if you are on a high-protein, high-fat diet, you have yourself regularly checked for high blood pressure, clogged arteries, kidney problems, and colon cancer (all of which have been scientifically linked to such diets.)
I sincerely wish you all the best in your efforts to be healthy, but I maintain my firm opinion that this fad diet is not the way to do it.

tbill
04-06-2004, 15:29
rantandrave,

You are a female, vegatarian journalist living in Moscow. No wonder you have such a big chip on your shoulder.

What journalism school taught you how to spell? "EXCERCISE"? Also, it is Atkins not Aitkins.

I'll give you credit for reading Jared Diamond's book, Germs, Guns and Steel or something like that. (I am not a journalist so I feel comfortable misspelling and getting names wrong) So in the course of human history how do you know what people ate? And what makes you think that a vegatarian diet is better? I am guessing that you do not have a clue about Atkins or the science behind it. I am also guessing that you spouted off without thinking and that you are more than a little embarrassed that you did. (I did not think I was going out on a limb when I predicted you would attack my post but if I knew you were a journalist I would have known it was a dead certainty)

Educate yourself, do some research. A little effort will lead you to articles that refute the protein overloading kidneys argument. No one disputes the idea that we are far more sedentary today than we were even 50 years ago. There is no way to turn back the clock. I am not about to start diging ditchs for a living when I can sit in front of a computer. What I can do is not wat processed foods, which include white flour and most sugars. When I do reach a weight where my knees aren't in danger of collapsing I will run and play basketball. For people that are morbidly obese, a lot of exercise is not an option. Atkins helps people like that get their weight down to a level that is manageable. Once you are at a weight that is normal for you, the Atkins diet is very similar to many other diets. But the idea is you need to lose the weight in the first place. Aktins is not going to cause long term harm according to many studies, so why alarm people with speculation and rumor. Oh, I forgot, that is what journalists do. Kick 'em when their up, kick 'em when their down.

(Flame off)

I hope we have a chance to discuss this without rancur and don't take this personally but I am tired of refuting these arguments made by people who are sure they are right when a little effort shows that the medical community is moving towards the position that Atkins was right in the first place.

legspreader
04-06-2004, 15:41
i agree with dpg. I got my old boss into the gym a couple of years back and he didnt want to hit the weights just do cardio. I said cardio is great but much better when in conjuction with weights as dpg mentioned the more muscle mass the more calories needed to maintain it. I spent most of my life in the gym and have seen the effects first hand. a very simple way to lose weight is cut back on the complex carbs ie starches, patatoes, pasta ect they pretty much go straight to your waist if you're not an attive person thats going to burn them right away also all alchohal is pure calories if you cut out or just back on your boozing you'll notice a big difference ergo the term beer belly...

Polia Ivanova
04-06-2004, 15:42
Originally posted by rantandrave
Polia-
Rantandrave is a journalist, and SHE has no connection to the 'carb business'.

Shape and Slimming World? And who advertize in the media you write for? There is THE connection.

I new it.

rantandrave
04-06-2004, 15:46
Pardon my spelling, I guess i should have specified that I am a photojournalist, although I really dont see why the personal attacks had to start in the first place. I did not attack you, only stated my opinions about a diet. Furthermore, I am not in slightest bit embarrassed, as I did not 'spout off'. I have done plenty of research, and have educated myself. If you like, we could get into a discussion about the chemistry of the digestion process.
Regarding Diamond's book, if you have actually read it, you should not need to ask how we know what people ate in the course of human history. Broadly speaking; archaeology, bioanthropology, and studying the genetics of modern crops to link them with their historical and wild ancestors.
Had you read my previous posts more closely, you may have noticed that I never advocated a vegetarian diet, although I do follow one myself. I was merely stating what we know about the evolution of food production systems, and the times of domestication of plants and animals, variously.
I will once again point out that the 'science' behind the Atkins diet flies in the face not only of history but also of most of the rest of medical science. I personally think it's dangerous to take one man's theories over a host of others. Particularly when that man has made a huge amount of money by convincing people to follow his theories (by selling his books and, more recently, his own line of *processed* food products).

I ended my last post with a wish for your success. I reiterate that, because I mean it. I wish health and fitness for everyone, even if they then respond with personal attacks on myself and my profession.

rantandrave
04-06-2004, 15:52
Originally posted by Polia Ivanova
Shape and Slimming World? And who advertize in the media you write for? There is THE connection.

I new it.

You 'new' it?

This kind of personal attack is really quite uncalled for. I apologize if I've offended anyone, but I certainly did not attack any of you personally (aside from Atkins, I guess). Again, look at who is making money from the diet you follow. Do you think Atkins might possibly have been motivated by more than altruistic goals? Or is it hard for you to gain some perspective on this... are you perhaps a retailer of Atkins brand food prodcuts?

Polia Ivanova
04-06-2004, 15:55
rantandrave

Sorry I didn't mean to get personal but there is so much money involved in "Healthy" food business in the last two decades but obesity statistics shows that it is all doesn't work. A lot of people make huge moneys wanting us to loose weight forever without loosing it, and that is what I will do if I stick to low fat high carb diet. Many people have insulin disorders, admit it.


Originally posted by rantandrave
Particularly when that man has made a huge amount of money by convincing people to follow his theories (by selling his books and, more recently, his own line of *processed* food products).


So did Mr Kellogg

Polia Ivanova
04-06-2004, 16:06
Originally posted by rantandrave
Or is it hard for you to gain some perspective on this... are you perhaps a retailer of Atkins brand food prodcuts?

Accounting Software Consultant. Completely impartial.

I lost a lot of weight doing Atkins, and I felt wonderful, because shifting 30 pounds gives you wings.

And my main point is that everybody is different. My sister can get into shape by eating muesli with water with minor exercise, and I cannot do the same. Her metabolism is different and what is good for her is not good for me.

I agree with you opinion with one condition - it is not suitable for everyone. We all different, our bodies produce different hormones and enzymes in different quantities and we have to adjust our diets for it.

Everybody's right.

tbill
04-06-2004, 16:22
I did not attack you, only stated my opinions about a diet. Furthermore, I am not in slightest bit embarrassed, as I did not 'spout off'.

No you did not attack me, you just arrived at the middle of this thread and stated that the diet was extremely harmful to your health and then you cited they lawsuit which is being sponsored by a VEGAN group against the Atkins estate. If that isn't spouting off I don't know what is. What is even worse is that I posted numerous articles citing studies which refute what you say and you ignore them.

I stand by what I said in my first response to you, you are a zealot. Mostly likely, there is no evidence that I could present to convince you.

As for your wishing me good health. Gee thanks, also thanks for the advice to have my doctor check for heart, kidney and colon problems. (Her wishing me good health with all the tag along advice is called being passive-aggressive)

tbill
04-06-2004, 16:34
I apologize for losing my temper. Being fat makes me pissed off not jolly.

Innosranets
04-06-2004, 17:40
Mental note to self: stay away from Expat discussion on politics, racism and dieting.

rantandrave
04-06-2004, 17:57
tbill, Perhaps I am mistaken but I thought that zealotry usually referred to someone who advocates an extreme position. I advocate the absolute opposite of an extreme - the balanced diet human have subsisted on for ages. Atkins (and most of his followers - but I am not implicating you in that group because I don't know you) is the zealot, because he advocates an extreme position. And uses extreme tactics, like instilling an irrational fear of carbohydrates as 'addictive', to convince his followers that there is only one true path.

Ok, that said, I do apologize if I offended you. I realize that I get a little carried away on this topic, but it just can't be helped. Everyone's got something that sets them off.

rosieredwood
04-06-2004, 18:02
I, myself, advocate the Ethiopian crash diet. Just stop before you reach the malnutrition stage.

Polia Ivanova
04-06-2004, 18:07
But for some carbs are addictive – we all have seen people buying dozens of chocolate bars or being unable to spend a day without a bag of chips.
And Atkins diet is like politics - people should have control over their nutritional intake without being accused of wrongdoing.

And this “self cannibalisation” of yours – it is not about digestion of fat, it is about burning. Using phrases like this may convince some but for others they are just a prove of manipulation.

tbill
04-06-2004, 18:14
Originally posted by rantandrave
tbill, Perhaps I am mistaken but I thought that zealotry usually referred to someone who advocates an extreme position. I advocate the absolute opposite of an extreme - the balanced diet human have subsisted on for ages. Atkins (and most of his followers - but I am not implicating you in that group because I don't know you) is the zealot, because he advocates an extreme position. And uses extreme tactics, like instilling an irrational fear of carbohydrates as 'addictive', to convince his followers that there is only one true path.

Ok, that said, I do apologize if I offended you. I realize that I get a little carried away on this topic, but it just can't be helped. Everyone's got something that sets them off.

I know you wrote what you did with the best intentions. However, you are not up to date on current studies of the diet.

All that I expect of myself or anyone else is to keep an open mind and that there is no concensus on the effects of a low carb diet. Polly made a good point, dieting is a personal issue. We react differently to food.

Atkinsu Ackbar. Their is only one diet and its prophet is Atkins.

sUbsTANce
06-06-2004, 21:16
there are so many different kinds of diets on the slimming market today, that ppl get lost and confused by all the info available, all the 'studies' (only god knows who sponsors those!), all the websites, books, etc etc etc...think about it- the industry shamelessly makes HUGE money on ur vulnerability!!! one week(month, year, decade) later, and u gain it all back...u stop paying- u start gaining. its a vicious circle and very clever marketing: first they make u feel inadequate(mass media), then they offer u a new magic diet to become 'adequate' (90-60-90 and washboard abs)...

when r ppl going to realize that unless u burn more calories than u consume, u r NEVER going to lose weight? when will they understand that there is no 'magic diet' that will make u lose weight effortlessly (well, not for long anyway)? exercise your WILL POWER!

Polia Ivanova
07-06-2004, 01:28
Originally posted by sUbsTANce

when r ppl going to realize that unless u burn more calories than u consume, u r NEVER going to lose weight? when will they understand that there is no 'magic diet' that will make u lose weight effortlessly (well, not for long anyway)? exercise your WILL POWER!

We were discussing Atkins, who proved you are wrong about calories. Read the posts and advise please how 250-300 pounds people should hit the gym. "If it works for me then it works for everybody" isn't right. And people doing Atkins loose weight without exercise (and hunger), although exercises are encouraged. And about eating right amount of calories without being hungry too.

I am really amazed why Atkins is hated so much? I do not say that Atkins approach is the answer for everybody, but for people having difficulties metabolising carbs it makes miracle.

tbill
07-06-2004, 10:46
I think people focus on the first part of the diet and think that this is how it is for the entire time a person is on Atkins is.

The first part is supposed to move the body from burning glycogen to burning lycogen (SP?). That is why you eat only fat and protein. Once your body is trained to burn fat instead of looking for carbs to burn then you are in ketosis. (Disclaimer, I read the book over a year ago so I might get some terms wrong) It takes different people, different times to get into ketosis. I imagine a person who was never overweight in their life would have an easy time. It takes me a month before I am there.

Once you are burning fat, your weight starts to drop and you will notice other side effects. Your breath is stronger, you don't go to the toilet as much (constipation is a problem for some), if you have ketostiks which measure ketones in your system then you can see how many ketones you have. The more ketones the further into ketosis you are. At this point you start to add carbs. Vegatables like broccoli, salads. (Help with the constipation) You add carbs and see if you can maintain ketosis. If you add to much and your weight loss stops, you back off on some of the carbs. Everybody is different.

The reason you want to be in ketosis and burning lycogen is that you are now using your bodies stores of fat as energy. When you are burning glycogen, your body will burn through all the carbs you have eaten and then start craving more. The fat you eat will not be burned for energy it will be stored. Some people are lucky enough to have metabolisms that will allow burning carbs and fats. A lot of us are not that lucky. That is why Atkins is so popular and why the call to eat less and exercise more is so hollow. Who wants to starve themselves? That is what you are saying, eating less and exercising more is starvation. It is the Ethiopian diet. Fortunately, weight gain is not always about a lack of discipline. Some people will gain weight if they maintain the same lifestyle they had in there 20's simply because your metabolism slows when you get older. No way around that.

sUbsTANce
07-06-2004, 10:50
Originally posted by Polia Ivanova
We were discussing Atkins, who proved you are wrong about calories. Read the posts and advise please how 250-300 pounds people should hit the gym. "If it works for me then it works for everybody" isn't right. And people doing Atkins loose weight without exercise (and hunger), although exercises are encouraged. And about eating right amount of calories without being hungry too.

I am really amazed why Atkins are so hated? I do not say that Atkins approach is the answer for everybody, but for people having difficulties metabolising carbs it makes miracle.

200-300 pounds people should not HIT the gym. they should go there, go through a medical assessment, get on the treadmill and walk for 2 mins one day, 5 mins the next, 10 mins a few weeks on.....a few months on start weights...they should do everything step by step...without straining the body..

i didnt say i hate atkins, and i dont. but i do not agree with any diet which goes to extremes- there should be a BALANCE of carbs, fat, protein and fiber on ur plate! balance being the key word here.

and most importantly, noone has ever died of starvation or malnutrition on a diet of 1,500 calories per day. almost anyone will lose weight eating 1500 cals a day, even more so someone weighing 200-300 pounds- and they will not go hungry for too long, as the less u eat, the less ur stomache will need to feel full.
and there are other, very efficient ways to boost ur metabolism- like exercise, eating 5-6 small meals a day, drinking lots of water, etc

hence, my advice is eat less, exercise more- and make it ur life time habit. this is the easiest way to lose weight- and more importantly to maintain a healthy weight and to stop yo-yo dieting.

rantandrave
07-06-2004, 11:51
substance - "I believe you. Thousands wouldn't."

But seriously, you are right, of course, but it's pointless to argue in here. Save your breath.

Polia Ivanova
07-06-2004, 12:05
Originally posted by rantandrave
substance - "I believe you. Thousands wouldn't."

But seriously, you are right, of course, but it's pointless to argue in here. Save your breath.

The same can be said about you.
People with your metabolism won't understand people with other type of metabolism.

History will judge us and I am a believer.

Atkinsu Akbar

tbill
07-06-2004, 12:06
And then, after two or three years, if they stick to the diet scrupulously, they will have lost the weight.

Not gonna happen. Meanwhile, you can cut down on the carbs and lose one hundred pounds in a year with moderate exercise. All without endangering your health, as more and more evidence is continuing to show.

sUbsTANce
07-06-2004, 13:13
Originally posted by tbill
And then, after two or three years, if they stick to the diet scrupulously, they will have lost the weight.

Not gonna happen. Meanwhile, you can cut down on the carbs and lose one hundred pounds in a year with moderate exercise. All without endangering your health, as more and more evidence is continuing to show.

one last post, i just cant resist :D

this is a quote from an article on atkins, on www.msn.com :

Volumetrics author Barbara Rolls, PhD, who holds the Guthrie Chair in Nutrition at Penn State University, offers a very simple explanation as to why people lose weight doing Atkins: They're cutting calories, even if they don't realize it. "No one has shown, in any studies, that anything magical is going on with Atkins other than calorie restriction. The diet is very prescriptive, very restrictive, and limits half of the foods we normally eat," she says. "In the end it's not fat, it's not protein, it's not carbs -- it's calories. You can lose weight on anything that helps you to eat less, but that doesn't mean it's good for you."

see?

:D

eat less, exercise, and u will lose weight, no matter what ur metabolism 'type' is (and btw, for those who didnt know- theres NO SUCH THING as a metabolism type- there is only a faster or a slower metabolism, and its speed depends on ur activity, lifestyle, foods u eat, diseases u might have, hormone balance etc etc)

tbill
07-06-2004, 13:40
Originally posted by sUbsTANce

eat less, exercise, and u will lose weight, no matter what ur metabolism 'type' is (and btw, for those who didnt know- theres NO SUCH THING as a metabolism type- there is only a faster or a slower metabolism, and its speed depends on ur activity, lifestyle, foods u eat, diseases u might have, hormone balance etc etc) [/B]

Fine, Atkins works because it restricts calories. (I don't believe it by the way) So why not promote Atkins over other diets since it has been shown not to harm your health and it produces faster weight loss? The reason I don't by into the restricted calorie argument is that there were plenty of times I went out and pigged out on a big steak and it never produced weight gain that lasted more than a week. And we are talking a whole crap load of steak. My body just burned through it and then went back to burning the fat that my body had stored.

I have a slower metabolism at 37 than at 20. So I have a different metabolism. It is a type of metabolism called getting older. Obesity has a genetic component, is it not possible that the genetic 'problem' for obese people is how well they metabolize fat?

I think the only argument against Atkins is if it harms your health. So far the weight of evidence has been that it does not. Given that, why not do the diet which will produce the most weight loss with the smallest amount of deprivation.

sUbsTANce
07-06-2004, 13:46
Originally posted by tbill
Fine, Atkins works because it restricts calories. (I don't believe it by the way) So why not promote Atkins over other diets since it has been shown not to harm your health and it produces faster weight loss? The reason I don't by into the restricted calorie argument is that there were plenty of times I went out and pigged out on a big steak and it never produced weight gain that lasted more than a week. And we are talking a whole crap load of steak. My body just burned through it and then went back to burning the fat that my body had stored.

I have a slower metabolism at 37 than at 20. So I have a different metabolism. It is a type of metabolism called getting older. Obesity has a genetic component, is it not possible that the genetic 'problem' for obese people is how well they metabolize fat?

I think the only argument against Atkins is if it harms your health. So far the weight of evidence has been that it does not. Given that, why not do the diet which will produce the most weight loss with the smallest amount of deprivation.


i give up!!

but doesnt this sentence sound a little strange- most weight loss with the smallest amount of deprivation. as they say 'no pain, no gain' partner. one day ull remember this. and good luck to all u atkins fans. ull need it.

all the best

aliwilliams
07-06-2004, 14:06
I've read your points and I thinks it's worth straightening people out on a few misconceptions. I'm a serious athelete with a need to control my weight and hence I have received a lot of advice on how to do it.

I am sure that we are all aware that we have a daily calorie intake that is needed to in order to maintain our body weight at its current level. Eating above this will cause a weight gain, while eating below this will cause loss. What people tend to miss is that although this is a "daily" calorie amount it evens out over time - hence why the huge steak does not ultimately cause a net weight gain.

Your body also does something very clever. It tries to keep you at the weight you are at by adjusting how it processes the calories you eat. If you significantly overeat it will use the food inefficiently, ad if you undereat it will try to use it very efficiently indeed. It takes time for the body to adapt to a new eating habit (at least two weeks), which is why many people who cut their calorie intake in an attempt to lose weight feel that they don't see results. This is the connection to the metabolic rate, which by the way is not fixed. (and I can prove it to you)

Turning to Atkins - I don't deny that people can and have lost weight on this, but you have to be very clear that one of the main reasons that it appears to be an instant weight loss program is that carbohydrate causes the body to retain water. Cutting it out of your diet minimises your water retention and so you get lighter (we all know how heavy water is right).

The other side of Atkins is that it does not encourage you to look at whay you have a weight problem, nor to change your lifestyle. You can lose weight, but the only way to keep it off is to look at your lifestyle and change it to a healthier one.

I do not feel that Atkins is a good or safe diet to follow, and would advocate a healthy, balanced diet combined with perseverence. Weight loss will not (and should not) happen too quickly (more than 2-3 pounds per week is actually dangerous)and people just seem to be obsessed with the quick fix.

tbill
07-06-2004, 14:55
i give up!!

:hooray:


but doesnt this sentence sound a little strange- most weight loss with the smallest amount of deprivation. as they say 'no pain, no gain' partner. one day ull remember this. and good luck to all u atkins fans. ull need it.

Why does weight loss have to be a simple plus or minus equation? Atkins and other diets say much the same thing, carbohydrate addiction causes the body to retain fat. What do they feed cattle to fatten them up, carbohydrates! Sometimes life let's us get away with a quick fix. I don't consider Atkins quick but I do think it is better than the myraid other diets I have tried.

What pisses me off is people who know little about the diet automatically forming an opinion. Or even worse, animal rights nutballs :farout: trying to discredit Atkins to save the chickens. PLEEAAASSEEE


I've read your points and I thinks it's worth straightening people out on a few misconceptions. I'm a serious athelete with a need to control my weight and hence I have received a lot of advice on how to do it.

Ali, realize that Atkins has only been vindicated in the past few years. Much of the advice coming from nutritionists is based on what they learned in school which was undoubtedly anti-low carb diet.


I am sure that we are all aware that we have a daily calorie intake that is needed to in order to maintain our body weight at its current level. Eating above this will cause a weight gain, while eating below this will cause loss. What people tend to miss is that although this is a "daily" calorie amount it evens out over time - hence why the huge steak does not ultimately cause a net weight gain.

Then why do people who follow low carb diets lose more weight than people on balanced diets?

rantandrave
07-06-2004, 15:02
tbill, if you are thinking of American cattle, you need to check your sources. Feed-lot raised American cattle are fed very HIGH-PROTEIN diets, to fatten them up and especially to acheive that 'marbled fat'. That's why animal matter gets mixed into their feed, leading to the spread of mad cow disease. Cows are meant to eat gr**** but are being fed high-protein corn/wheat/animal protein combinations.

tbill
07-06-2004, 15:15
Originally posted by rantandrave
tbill, if you are thinking of American cattle, you need to check your sources. Feed-lot raised American cattle are fed very HIGH-PROTEIN diets, to fatten them up and especially to acheive that 'marbled fat'. That's why animal matter gets mixed into their feed, leading to the spread of mad cow disease. Cows are meant to eat gr**** but are being fed high-protein corn/wheat/animal protein combinations.

I am going to have to yield to your knowledge of animal husabandry. Last time I checked corn and wheat were choke full of carbs. When did feeding animal protein to cows become popular?

aliwilliams
07-06-2004, 15:33
Originally posted by tbill


Ali, realize that Atkins has only been vindicated in the past few years. Much of the advice coming from nutritionists is based on what they learned in school which was undoubtedly anti-low carb diet.


Then why do people who follow low carb diets lose more weight than people on balanced diets?

What do you mean by vindicated? Atkin's appeared in the 1970s and has had dedicated followers since then who have sung his praises. What Atkin's has done in the last few years is achieve popularity. This is probably largely owing to the frightening rise in obesity.

I explained the low-carb diet thing to you. Carbohydrate causes you to retain water therefore you appear to lose more weight, and earlier on. The other thing with any diet is that they require persevernece. The balanced diet approach takes longer, but is far healthier. People lose less weight on it because they do not persevere with it.

You always need to look at what you are trying to achieve in weight loss. Atkin's would tend to be the diet route taken by someone looking for a quick weight loss. Motivation both to diet and to stick to it are extremely important in this discussion.

On the cattle and the animal feed. This became a common practice in beef farming during the 1980s as the demand for beef rose owing to the massive expansion of the fast food industry. BSE (mad cow disease) only exists because of cattle being fed with animal matter and it's rise can be seen with a change in farming methods. Steroids are alos not uncommon additives to meat in the USA where the FDA permits theier usage (it's not permitted in Europe)

You also

rantandrave
07-06-2004, 15:48
As I was just about to say, commercially raised cattle are fed animal byproducts, and have been for about 30 years. Also, the corn which they receive is GM to have a protein content of about 20% (twice as high as corn for human consumption). It adds up to an extremely high-protein diet, specifically designed to fatten the cattle up as quickly as possible for slaughter (they are usually killed around one year of age, as opposed to farm-raised, grass-fed cattle which take several years to mature).

Ghost
07-06-2004, 16:20
I don't think any of us are qualified to say what is or is not right as far as diets go. Unless someone here is a closet nutritionist. I read all these articles on how a particular food is wonderful and studies have been shown that you'll live to be 100 if you eat it, blah blah...then one year later, there is another study showing the previous one to be wrong.

I did Atkins, it worked. I'm still just as healthy as before, but thinner. Being thinner has let me have less back problems, my knee doesn't act up anymore, and I've kept the weight off despite reintroducing moderate levels of carbs into my life. Do I eat a 50 pound steak? 'Course not. But I don't eat 4 rolls and two cokes with dinner anymore either.

I do, however, show an increase in suspiscion at all these supposed doctors who are saying Atkins is so bad for you. Most likely they are backed by industries that are showing massive decreases in sales (pastas, breads, etc) because of the diet.

Dieting is the largest in the US because that's where most of the fat people are. They've been blitzed with billions and billions of dollars of advertising on all these diets, then along comes one that not only costs them nothing (no tablets, etc) but actually works! Hah...you know that tons of companies are pissed.

-Ghost

rantandrave
07-06-2004, 16:34
Ok, but then why do doctors and nutritionists in every other country but the US also decry Atkins? It really hasn't caught on outside of the US, so, for example, the Norwegian bread industry is not being affected by it, and yet Norwegian doctors recommend a balanced diet with more carbs than protein.
Atkins made tons of money off his theories, from books, seminars, and most recently, from the Atkins line of food products (which, I was highly amused to notice, include CHOCOLATE BARS). Who has more material interest in this, Norwegian physicians, or the man with his name on the chocolate bars?

Ghost
07-06-2004, 16:47
The man with his name on the chocolate bars is dead. He has no interest in this at all.

The company using the name might have an interest, but you don't need to buy food from the company to do atkins. It's just in case you want to feel like you're eating chocolate. The company making the shakes and stuff doesn't need to push anything. When I was in the states last, I spoke to a Walmart exec who said they cannot get enough of the product in stock to last more than 3 days. It flies off the shelf. Why does it fly off the shelf? Because the diet has so many success stories from people just next door! You neighbor, friend at work, etc. They all look much thinner, and you ask - WOW, how the hell did you do that? And they tell you: Atkins. So you have all these docs and industry saying it's bad, and all your friends are thin. What do you do?

As for the foreign doctors saying this or that, who knows what motivates them? I just read a report from a Russian nutritionist that said cow brain was the best thing you could feed your baby. Does that make it gospel? Should I propose to the CEO that we now need to make cow brain puree'?

tbill
07-06-2004, 16:50
What do you mean by vindicated? Atkin's appeared in the 1970s and has had dedicated followers since then who have sung his praises. What Atkin's has done in the last few years is achieve popularity. This is probably largely owing to the frightening rise in obesity.

If you go back earlier in this thread you will find a post I made which has links to many studies done resently which have vindicated Atkins. I think Atkins is popular because it works. As far as being more healthy to only lose 2 or 3 pounds per week. I have heard nothing about this. I think it is an old wives tale. But if you are a hundred pounds overweight who says that you cannot lose weight faster.

Americans have become obese over the past 30 or 40 years. Recently, the FDA change its food pyramid to deemphasize carbs. If Atkins is correct, about the worst thing you can eat is pasta. Guess what was at the top of the food pyramid when Americans were getting obese?


I explained the low-carb diet thing to you. Carbohydrate causes you to retain water therefore you appear to lose more weight, and earlier on. The other thing with any diet is that they require persevernece. The balanced diet approach takes longer, but is far healthier. People lose less weight on it because they do not persevere with it.

Read the most recent studies, they have vindicated low carb diets. They have shown that following a low carb diet is not detrimental to your health.

Ghost
07-06-2004, 16:52
Originally posted by tbill
Read the most recent studies, they have vindicated low carb diets. They have shown that following a low carb diet is not detrimental to your health.

If done correctly is the key. Sure, high protein is bad for your kidneys - we know that. You drink a lot of water with this diet (I mean a lot) and your kidneys are just fine. You don't, then you run your kidneys at high RPMs, so to speak.

tbill
07-06-2004, 16:52
Originally posted by rantandrave
As I was just about to say, commercially raised cattle are fed animal byproducts, and have been for about 30 years. Also, the corn which they receive is GM to have a protein content of about 20% (twice as high as corn for human consumption). It adds up to an extremely high-protein diet, specifically designed to fatten the cattle up as quickly as possible for slaughter (they are usually killed around one year of age, as opposed to farm-raised, grass-fed cattle which take several years to mature).

So the cattle are eating mostly carbs and a little fat and they are getting fatter than just by eating carbs> What about the cattle that have followed the Atkins diet? Can we stop talking about cattle. It was my fault for using this faulty analogy.

aliwilliams
07-06-2004, 16:57
Originally posted by tbill
If you go back earlier in this thread you will find a post I made which has links to many studies done resently which have vindicated Atkins. I think Atkins is popular because it works. As far as being more healthy to only lose 2 or 3 pounds per week. I have heard nothing about this. I think it is an old wives tale. But if you are a hundred pounds overweight who says that you cannot lose weight faster.

Would you like me to put you in touch with every dietician/nutritionist/doctor I know and have them tell you that it is not an old wive's tale? It is sound clinical advice based on years of research by many people, not just by the Atkin's Foundation.




Read the most recent studies, they have vindicated low carb diets. They have shown that following a low carb diet is not detrimental to your health.

True. But it remains about balance. the problem with carbs (you metioned pasta which is an excellent example) is a) people tend to eat too much of them b) it is often the accompanyment to them that does most damage - such as a creamy sauce.

Amd while the late Dr. Atkins may have no interest in selling chocolate bars his estate certainly does. Worth reme,bering that he is the most prolific (ghost)writer from beyond the grave of all time. He's had more books written for him since he died than he wrote in his own lifetime. Atkin's is an industry, like it or not.

tbill
07-06-2004, 16:59
Originally posted by Ghost
The man with his name on the chocolate bars is dead. He has no interest in this at all.

The company using the name might have an interest, but you don't need to buy food from the company to do atkins. It's just in case you want to feel like you're eating chocolate. The company making the shakes and stuff doesn't need to push anything. When I was in the states last, I spoke to a Walmart exec who said they cannot get enough of the product in stock to last more than 3 days. It flies off the shelf. Why does it fly off the shelf? Because the diet has so many success stories from people just next door! You neighbor, friend at work, etc. They all look much thinner, and you ask - WOW, how the hell did you do that? And they tell you: Atkins. So you have all these docs and industry saying it's bad, and all your friends are thin. What do you do?

As for the foreign doctors saying this or that, who knows what motivates them? I just read a report from a Russian nutritionist that said cow brain was the best thing you could feed your baby. Does that make it gospel? Should I propose to the CEO that we now need to make cow brain puree'?

Bingo, word of mouth is why Atkins is gaining popularity. The truth is the American Heart Association tried to do everything it could to discredit Atkins. They were the ones responsible for the faulty food pyramid. People wised up. Now some people have not gotten the message and they still think Atkins is death. Why? Follow the money. I am betting Kelloggs is behind the whole thing. :verymad:

sUbsTANce
07-06-2004, 17:01
god! its amazing how blind ppl r these days! its a massive crowd led by atkins money making empire!

http://www.weight-loss-diet-i.com/dieting-myths.htm

maybe this article will shed some light on what really causes weight loss when u do the atkins. read myth 12.

Innosranets
07-06-2004, 17:02
Originally posted by Ghost
Should I propose to the CEO that we now need to make cow brain puree'?

Yummee !

legspreader
07-06-2004, 17:05
[i]
I did Atkins, it worked. I'm still just as healthy as before, but thinner. Being thinner has let me have less back problems, my knee doesn't act up anymore, and I've kept the weight off despite reintroducing moderate levels of carbs into my life. Do I eat a 50 pound steak? 'Course not. But I don't eat 4 rolls and two cokes with dinner anymore either.

-Ghost [/B]

I think this sums it up people eat without regard to the consquences as TBill has mentioned he does not have the metabolism he had when he was twenty. Logic would dictate one should modify something in the equation to bring things back into line either by increased activity or reduced calorie intake. The focus should not be on quick fixes and stop gaps that allow you to for a short time to side step the consiquences of your actions. I've had to come to grips with this myself recently ie eat less drink less exercise more. that is one sure way of sustained weight loss. not chasing after miracle fixes....

aliwilliams
07-06-2004, 17:06
tbill - I just read your signature on your posts.

from this it is clear that you have been sucked into the cult of Atkins.

You say that there is only one true diet. Please could you explain why Atkins does not work for everybody and why it makes some people feel downright ill.

IT IS NOT A CURE ALL - get that into your head

tbill
07-06-2004, 17:07
Would you like me to put you in touch with every dietician/nutritionist/doctor I know and have them tell you that it is not an old wive's tale? It is sound clinical advice based on years of research by many people, not just by the Atkin's Foundation.

Would it be one of the dietician/nutritionists/doctors that was wrong about the food pyramid that got America fat in the first place? Is the National Institute of Health owned by the Atkins foundation?


True. But it remains about balance. the problem with carbs (you metioned pasta which is an excellent example) is a) people tend to eat too much of them b) it is often the accompanyment to them that does most damage - such as a creamy sauce.

A balanced diet will not help someone who is morbidly obese. Which goes back to the point that everyone is different and they might need different approaches to nutrition. I will eat a balanced diet when I am at my goal weight. Of course I won't call it a balnced diet because I am a zealot. I will call it the Atkins life maintenance PLAN.

ALL PRAISE ATKINS, DEATH TO THE K'FIR

aliwilliams
07-06-2004, 17:07
Originally posted by legspreader
I think this sums it up people eat without regard to the consquences as TBill has mentioned he does not have the metabolism he had when he was twenty. Logic would dictate one should modify something in the equation to bring things back into line either by increased activity or reduced calorie intake. The focus should not be on quick fixes and stop gaps that allow you to for a short time to side step the consiquences of your actions. I've had to come to grips with this myself recently ie eat less drink less exercise more. that is one sure way of sustained weight loss. not chasing after miracle fixes....

Yes. This is the right attitude.

It's about lifestyle change if you want to keep the weight off.

Innosranets
07-06-2004, 17:09
Lionel Hutz: Mrs. Simpson, in your own words, please tell us what happened after you and your husband were ejected from the restaurant.
Marge: We pretty much went straight home.
Hutz: Remember, Mrs. Simpson, you're still under oath.
Marge: We drove around until 3:00 in the morning looking for another open all-you-can-eat seafood restaurant.
Hutz: And when you couldn't find any?
Marge [weeping]: We went fishing!
Hutz: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, do these sound like the actions of a man who's had ALL he could eat?
Fat Jury Man: That could have been me!

tbill
07-06-2004, 17:12
Originally posted by aliwilliams
tbill - I just read your signature on your posts.

from this it is clear that you have been sucked into the cult of Atkins.

You say that there is only one true diet. Please could you explain why Atkins does not work for everybody and why it makes some people feel downright ill.

IT IS NOT A CURE ALL - get that into your head

May Atkins be praised, you will burn in an eternal pit of damnation unbeliever. Atkins, oh weight loss bringer to the world, is not pleased with you who chose to eat twinkies thou they are evil and they bring evil unto the world.

May Atkins have mercy on your soul.


HAAA LA LALLALALALALALA (tongue clicking)

aliwilliams
07-06-2004, 17:12
Originally posted by tbill
Would it be one of the dietician/nutritionists/doctors that was wrong about the food pyramid that got America fat in the first place? Is the National Institute of Health owned by the Atkins foundation?


What makes you think that I am an American, and that the dieticians/nustritionists/doctors I referred to might be as well? Please don't apply your arguments to only the healthcare professionals of one country.




A balanced diet will not help someone who is morbidly obese. Which goes back to the point that everyone is different and they might need different approaches to nutrition. I will eat a balanced diet when I am at my goal weight. Of course I won't call it a balnced diet because I am a zealot. I will call it the Atkins life maintenance PLAN.

ALL PRAISE ATKINS, DEATH TO THE K'FIR

You contradict yourslef. You say that everyone is different and might therefore need to take a different approach. then go on to say that Atkins is the only apprroach. I'm not denying that it might work, but I don't feel that it is the best way of achieving weight loss and maintaining it

Someone who is morbidly obese needs to look at their lifestyle and think about their weight loss goals. A balanced diet can and will help such individuals.

tbill
07-06-2004, 17:16
Originally posted by aliwilliams
You contradict yourslef. You say that everyone is different and might therefore need to take a different approach. then go on to say that Atkins is the only apprroach. I'm not denying that it might work, but I don't feel that it is the best way of achieving weight loss and maintaining it

Someone who is morbidly obese needs to look at their lifestyle and think about their weight loss goals. A balanced diet can and will help such individuals.

It's called humor. Work with me. :suspect:

aliwilliams
07-06-2004, 17:18
Originally posted by tbill
It's called humor. Work with me. :suspect:

I don't find it particularly funny

sUbsTANce
07-06-2004, 17:20
Originally posted by tbill
Bingo, word of mouth is why Atkins is gaining popularity. The truth is the American Heart Association tried to do everything it could to discredit Atkins. They were the ones responsible for the faulty food pyramid. People wised up. Now some people have not gotten the message and they still think Atkins is death. Why? Follow the money. I am betting Kelloggs is behind the whole thing. :verymad:

PLEASEEEEEEE who r u kidding!! americans, despite massive pro and anti atkins (and all the other diets) propaganda, despite apparently the highest awareness in the world of what is and isnt healthy- still have the highest rate of obesity in the world.....its because ppl give up all these crash diets like atkins soon after they achieved their target weight, and go back to eating tons of food!!!! and those foods include kelloggs, donuts, etc...which leads individuals like urself to believe that u r gaining weight coz u r eating bread- not coz u r simply stuffing ur face and consuming 10,000 calories extra per day (btw- 10,000 calories thats 3 pounds of fat on ur belly over the next week).....

the carbohydrate empires DO NOT NEED to descredit atkins- they have enough weakwilled clients who eat a dozen krispykream donuts for breakfast lunch and dinner...their product will always be in demand, no matter how many anti-carb diets will emerge in the future, and surely no atkins diet will hurt their P&L not even in the slightest..

tbill
07-06-2004, 17:26
Originally posted by sUbsTANce
PLEASEEEEEEE who r u kidding!! americans, despite massive pro and anti atkins (and all the other diets) propaganda, despite apparently the highest awareness in the world of what is and isnt healthy- still have the highest rate of obesity in the world.....its because ppl give up all these crash diets like atkins soon after they achieved their target weight, and go back to eating tons of food!!!! and those foods include kelloggs, donuts, etc...which leads individuals like urself to believe that u r gaining weight coz u r eating bread- not coz u r simply stuffing ur face and consuming 10,000 calories extra per day (btw- 10,000 calories thats 3 pounds of fat on ur belly over the next week).....

the carbohydrate empires DO NOT NEED to descredit atkins- they have enough weakwilled clients who eat a dozen krispykream donuts for breakfast lunch and dinner...their product will always be in demand, no matter how many anti-carb diets will emerge in the future, and surely no atkins diet will hurt their P&L not even in the slightest..

If you eat lots of carbs you get fat. Now doubt about it. That is why I will stay away from bread and potatoes and pasta and rice for the rest of my life. Beer will be tougher. But Atkins is not saying you can stop following a low carb diet and stay thin, it doesn't work that way so I don't see how your criticism is relavent.

Innosranets
07-06-2004, 17:26
Mmmmmm. Donuts.

Ghost
07-06-2004, 17:27
I seem to have found one cow brain customer. If I can find some more, I'll see if I can make the plant make a few cases for you guys.

tbill
07-06-2004, 17:28
Originally posted by aliwilliams
I don't find it particularly funny

That is why you should take improv comedy classes with me. :yikes: Are you laughing now?

rantandrave
07-06-2004, 17:29
Americans are fat because they eat too much and drive to the mailbox. It's not because they eat too much pasta, it's just because they eat way too much of everything. Tbill, you talk about how most diets are so hard because you have to eat less, that it's "starvation". Well, you know what? If someone has made him/herself obese by eating four serving at dinner every night for the past 20 years, he/she is going to have to make up for it somehow!
I believe it was substance who put it most succinctly: the ONLY, repeat ONLY healthy, long-term weight loss plan is to burn more calories than you consume. If you can find me a doctor or nutritionist (not from the Atkins foundation of course) who disagrees with that statement, please let me know. Until that unlikely event, I am signing off this thread since it is really just totally pointless to continue conversations with people so entrenched in a fad.

tbill
07-06-2004, 17:30
Originally posted by Ghost
I seem to have found one cow brain customer. If I can find some more, I'll see if I can make the plant make a few cases for you guys.

There was a taquieria (SP?) in Chicago when I was High School that sold cow brains tacos. I went with a bunch of friends and we ate them as a challenge. I didn't taste much because I doused it with pico de gallo.

camus
07-06-2004, 17:30
I'll make this quick: Atkins is just a fancy name for "ketogenic diet", a concept that has been around for ages (and well before Atkins came around and called it his own).

A non cyclical ketogenic/Atkins approach is basically the lazy and uninformed man's approach to weight loss. If you want to be smart about losing weight, do a ketogenic cycle and get some f*cking exercise.

I guess the exercise part is hard to swallow if you're a pathological fat**** though.

Ghost
07-06-2004, 17:31
Innosranets lost 40 pounds on the Crispy Creme diet.

aliwilliams
07-06-2004, 17:31
Originally posted by tbill
If you eat lots of carbs you get fat. Now doubt about it. That is why I will stay away from bread and potatoes and pasta and rice for the rest of my life. Beer will be tougher. But Atkins is not saying you can stop following a low carb diet and stay thin, it doesn't work that way so I don't see how your criticism is relavent.

That is an f***ing ridiculous statement.

I eat a very high carb diet, but I actually have problems maintainign my weight (if you know me you will know that I'm really quite thin)

I think, sir, that you have eaten too much meat and have developed variant CJD. Or at least have become very blinkered

tbill
07-06-2004, 17:32
Originally posted by rantandrave
Americans are fat because they eat too much and drive to the mailbox. It's not because they eat too much pasta, it's just because they eat way too much of everything. Tbill, you talk about how most diets are so hard because you have to eat less, that it's "starvation". Well, you know what? If someone has made him/herself obese by eating four serving at dinner every night for the past 20 years, he/she is going to have to make up for it somehow!
I believe it was substance who put it most succinctly: the ONLY, repeat ONLY healthy, long-term weight loss plan is to burn more calories than you consume. If you can find me a doctor or nutritionist (not from the Atkins foundation of course) who disagrees with that statement, please let me know. Until that unlikely event, I am signing off this thread since it is really just totally pointless to continue conversations with people so entrenched in a fad.

OK, take your ball and go home.

If you want to find doctors that agree with Atkins, read the studies I posted. :badclown:

tbill
07-06-2004, 17:36
Originally posted by aliwilliams
That is an f***ing ridiculous statement.

I eat a very high carb diet, but I actually have problems maintainign my weight (if you know me you will know that I'm rally quite thin)

I think, sir, that you have eaten too much meat and have developed variant CJD. Or at least have become very blinkered

Ali, is there is slight chance that you are unique in your ability to eat lots of carbs and have trouble maintaining your weight. How old are you? Is it possible someone could eat the same thing as you but gain weight because they are different?

You said yourself that you are a top notch athlete. I am not, I am not about to become one. But I my choses are not obesity and 2 hours in the gym every day. Thanks to Atkins, may he be praised. (Humor alert)

camus
07-06-2004, 17:37
Originally posted by aliwilliams
That is an f***ing ridiculous statement.

I eat a very high carb diet, but I actually have problems maintainign my weight (if you know me you will know that I'm really quite thin)

I think, sir, that you have eaten too much meat and have developed variant CJD. Or at least have become very blinkered

Same here, although I use well-known principles for manipulating my weight and muscle mass (I can move between 130 and 155 pounds at will), not some BS fad diets.

camus
07-06-2004, 17:38
Originally posted by tbill
Ali, is there is slight chance that you are unique in your ability to eat lots of carbs and have trouble maintaining your weight. How old are you? Is it possible someone could eat the same thing as you but gain weight because they are different?

You said yourself that you are a top notch athlete. I am not, I am not about to become one. But I my choses are not obesity and 2 hours in the gym every day. Thanks to Atkins, may he be praised. (Humor alert)

The parameters are different depending upon the person but the physiological principles remain the same.

aliwilliams
07-06-2004, 17:40
Originally posted by tbill
OK, take your ball and go home.

If you want to find doctors that agree with Atkins, read the studies I posted. :badclown:

Ok. you asked for this.

You continually argue from the point of view of the American medical profession, ignoring other countries medical views.

What you need to know about the US medical profession (doctors, healthcare professionals. drug companies) is that to a large extent it is motivated by money. Treatment costs an exorbitant amount of money. Companies fund research by doctors, effectively buying them. (this of course goes on elsewhere, but it is more prevalent in the US)

Therefore, you need to be very careful in whose studies you cite as being definitive.

rantandrave
07-06-2004, 17:41
Originally posted by tbill
But I my choses are not obesity and 2 hours in the gym every day. Thanks to Atkins, may he be praised. (Humor alert)

Well, there you have it folks. What kind of people go on Atkins? If you guessed that it's people who want to become fit and healthy, you'd be wrong.

Innosranets
07-06-2004, 17:41
Originally posted by Ghost
Innosranets lost 40 pounds on the Crispy Creme diet.

Nothing but donuts all day. Cut out all the rice and pasta and potatos. No Ketosis, but one hell of a good sugar rush.

sUbsTANce
07-06-2004, 17:43
Originally posted by rantandrave
Americans are fat because they eat too much and drive to the mailbox. It's not because they eat too much pasta, it's just because they eat way too much of everything. Tbill, you talk about how most diets are so hard because you have to eat less, that it's "starvation". Well, you know what? If someone has made him/herself obese by eating four serving at dinner every night for the past 20 years, he/she is going to have to make up for it somehow!
I believe it was substance who put it most succinctly: the ONLY, repeat ONLY healthy, long-term weight loss plan is to burn more calories than you consume. If you can find me a doctor or nutritionist (not from the Atkins foundation of course) who disagrees with that statement, please let me know. Until that unlikely event, I am signing off this thread since it is really just totally pointless to continue conversations with people so entrenched in a fad.

i agree, totally pointless, and signing off as well..

piece of advice for poor, frustrated tbill- since u r so eager to lose weight with minimum effort, then perhaps a f**k buddy might help keep u away from the fridge, off the couch, doing some 'sport' and supplying u with an endorphine rush- stronger than the one from that huge red meat steak u ate the other week! honest!! :D

aliwilliams
07-06-2004, 17:47
Originally posted by tbill
Ali, is there is slight chance that you are unique in your ability to eat lots of carbs and have trouble maintaining your weight. How old are you? Is it possible someone could eat the same thing as you but gain weight because they are different?

You said yourself that you are a top notch athlete. I am not, I am not about to become one. But I my choses are not obesity and 2 hours in the gym every day. Thanks to Atkins, may he be praised. (Humor alert)

I am indeed a serious athelete, and I do do a lot of training. But, I also know how to feed my body and what I need to eat.

There is no need to differ from this principle if you are not like me. It all basically works around a calories in-calories out formula. It's not a tricky concept, but it does require you to work at it quite seriously, and to be aware of, and care about what you are eating.

tbill
07-06-2004, 17:48
Originally posted by aliwilliams
Ok. you asked for this.

You continually argue from the point of view of the American medical profession, ignoring other countries medical views.

What you need to know about the US medical profession (doctors, healthcare professionals. drug companies) is that to a large extent it is motivated by money. Treatment costs an exorbitant amount of money. Companies fund research by doctors, effectively buying them. (this of course goes on elsewhere, but it is more prevalent in the US)

Therefore, you need to be very careful in whose studies you cite as being definitive.

Yes, you are right about the US medical community being suspect. After all, they attacked Atkins for many years and have only recently started to come around to the idea that there might be something to what Atkins was saying. I bet given time, foreign doctors will come around also. But the truth is, foreign countries never bought into the idea that cereal was a great idea for breakfast. Also, Americans eat much more processed food. However, as in most things, america leads the trend. Just as russians still smoke like chimneys, soon they will begin to pork out and they will turn to atkins as a solution.

camus
07-06-2004, 17:51
Originally posted by tbill
Yes, you are right about the US medical community being suspect. After all, they attacked Atkins for many years and have only recently started to come around to the idea that there might be something to what Atkins was saying. I bet given time, foreign doctors will come around also. But the truth is, foreign countries never bought into the idea that cereal was a great idea for breakfast. Also, Americans eat much more processed food. However, as in most things, america leads the trend. Just as russians still smoke like chimneys, soon they will begin to pork out and they will turn to atkins as a solution.

tbill,

As I said Atkins = ketogenic diet

The concept has been around for ages but it takes a fool to live in permanent state of ketosis.

tbill
07-06-2004, 17:55
Originally posted by sUbsTANce
i agree, totally pointless, and signing off as well..

piece of advice for poor, frustrated tbill- since u r so eager to lose weight with minimum effort, then perhaps a f**k buddy might help keep u away from the fridge, off the couch, doing some 'sport' and supplying u with an endorphine rush- stronger than the one from that huge red meat steak u ate the other week! honest!! :D

Is this the second or third time you signed off?

My twenty year old girlfriend :inlove: is on the rag this week. So I have a lot of energy to burn.

Actually, that is why I moved here. Sex sure beats the hell out of sweating in a gym.

peyote
07-06-2004, 17:58
Originally posted by tbill
Sex sure beats the hell out of sweating in a gym. and so does cocaine.
:D

Innosranets
07-06-2004, 18:00
Originally posted by tbill
Just as russians still smoke like chimneys,

The US still leads Russia by as much as two times in per-capita consumption of cigarettes.

legspreader
07-06-2004, 18:00
Originally posted by tbill
Ali, is there is slight chance that you are unique in your ability to eat lots of carbs and have trouble maintaining your weight. How old are you? Is it possible someone could eat the same thing as you but gain weight because they are different?

You said yourself that you are a top notch athlete. I am not, I am not about to become one. But I my choses are not obesity and 2 hours in the gym every day. Thanks to Atkins, may he be praised. (Humor alert)

Not really he is active, an active individual could not survive on an atkins diet becuase they need the energy provided by carbs. I went through similar situations in my life. Carbs = energy = calories. I agree different people will be affected differently when consuming the same things. However in many cases this is a direct reflection of individual choices ie many not all but many that have trouble with carbs have led a seditary lifestyle. it happened to me my last year of football i weighed 245 lbs and had about 12% body fat. I injured myself and stopped working out eating the same foods. pretty soon i was 235 lbs and god only knows what percent body fat. i agree losing weight can be tough for some people and gets tougher as they get older. but what can someone expect living a seditary lifestyle and overeating. I know blame the carbs but its just not the case. ok atkins might make you leaner but you should still spend an hour a two a day 3 times a week in the gym. if you disagree thats your choice but the reality is the cuprit isn't carbs its overeating and a seditary lifestyle with everyone looking for a scapegoat.

tbill
07-06-2004, 18:01
Originally posted by Innosranets
The US still leads Russia by as much as two times in per-capita consumption of cigarettes.

That shocks me. Per capita?

tbill
07-06-2004, 18:05
Originally posted by legspreader
ok atkins might make you leaner but you should still spend an hour a two a day 3 times a week in the gym. if you disagree thats your choice but the reality is the cuprit isn't carbs its overeating and a seditary lifestyle with everyone looking for a scapegoat.

I completely agree about the need to exercise. I hope I did not impoly otherwise. That being said, Aktins and exercise is the fastest way to lose weight. In the years I put on my weight I exercised at least three times per week. It was only after I changed my diet that I lost the weight.

Atkins be praised.

Innosranets
07-06-2004, 18:12
Originally posted by tbill
That shocks me. Per capita?

No, sorry, I just made that up.

peyote
07-06-2004, 18:17
Originally posted by Innosranets
No, sorry, I just made that up. innosranets? you rock, buddy!
:D

aliwilliams
07-06-2004, 18:17
Originally posted by tbill
I completely agree about the need to exercise. I hope I did not impoly otherwise. That being said, Aktins and exercise is the fastest way to lose weight. In the years I put on my weight I exercised at least three times per week. It was only after I changed my diet that I lost the weight.

Atkins be praised.

Let me tell you about Xeno Muller. He is a former World and Olympic champion single sculler. He was never a small guy (he's huge - almost to the extent of abnormality), but he stepped away from the rowing world in the late 1990s when he moved from Switzerland to the US and started a family.

With the upcoming Athens olympics he decided to give it one more go, before he was too old to be competetive. Like many rowers, he had continued to eat what he had been eating when he trained six hours a day, even when he stopped training so hard. he didn't stop exercise completely, but he did gain weight. He needed to shift this weight in order to be competetive enought to compete at world class event s again.

He also needed to do this fairly fast and so he went on a modified version of the Atkins diet. He only took in carbohydrate during training sessions, normally in the from of glucose in water.

We learn from this that if you want to be active you do need carbohydrate or you land yourself in an energy debt, which then causes the body to break down muscle rather than fat to feed itself.

Unfortunately for Xeno, just carbohydrate in training wasn't enough. Sure he lost weight, but he didn't have the glycogen stored in the muscles to perform, and he didn't have enough energy to train effectively.

He will not be going to the olympics. He is not fast enough. he blames the lack of carbohydrate in his diet while trying to drop weight for this.

there is a lesson here that even we lesser mortals can learn. carbohydrate is an inherent part of what gives us energy. We ignore it at our peril

peyote
07-06-2004, 18:20
for one thing, glucose is the only source of energy a brain cell can use. that's a medical fact from 1st year in med school so don't get me started!
:mad:

just kidding.
:D

but not about glucose... ;)

legspreader
07-06-2004, 18:20
Originally posted by tbill
Is this the second or third time you signed off?

My twenty year old girlfriend :inlove: is on the rag this week. So I have a lot of energy to burn.

Actually, that is why I moved here. Sex sure beats the hell out of sweating in a gym.

ok this begs the question how many 'boyfriends' she has and how much she costs you. I've seen the senario a few times. hell thats how model friend of mine got a new car and a very nice new apartment in the center

camus
07-06-2004, 18:21
Originally posted by peyote
for one thing, glucose is the only source of energy a brain cell can use. that's a medical fact from 1st year in med school so don't get me started!
:mad:

just kidding.
:D

but not about glucose... ;)

peyote,

Glucose can be synthesized from protein. That's what ketosis is all about.

tbill
07-06-2004, 18:21
Originally posted by Innosranets
No, sorry, I just made that up.

Thief :cry:

tbill
07-06-2004, 18:28
Originally posted by aliwilliams
Let me tell you about Xeno Muller. He is a former World and Olympic champion single sculler. He was never a small guy (he's huge - almost to the extent of abnormality), but he stepped away from the rowing world in the late 1990s when he moved from Switzerland to the US and started a family.

With the upcoming Athens olympics he decided to give it one more go, before he was too old to be competetive. Like many rowers, he had continued to eat what he had been eating when he trained six hours a day, even when he stopped training so hard. he didn't stop exercise completely, but he did gain weight. He needed to shift this weight in order to be competetive enought to compete at world class event s again.

He also needed to do this fairly fast and so he went on a modified version of the Atkins diet. He only took in carbohydrate during training sessions, normally in the from of glucose in water.

We learn from this that if you want to be active you do need carbohydrate or you land yourself in an energy debt, which then causes the body to break down muscle rather than fat to feed itself.

Unfortunately for Xeno, just carbohydrate in training wasn't enough. Sure he lost weight, but he didn't have the glycogen stored in the muscles to perform, and he didn't have enough energy to train effectively.

He will not be going to the olympics. He is not fast enough. he blames the lack of carbohydrate in his diet while trying to drop weight for this.

there is a lesson here that even we lesser mortals can learn. carbohydrate is an inherent part of what gives us energy. We ignore it at our peril

Come on Ali, this is not a fair analogy. You are talking about an Olympic athlete and I am just a guy that wants to drop some weight. I am not looking to compete.

One other thing, ketosis is about burning the bodies stores of fat. From what I have read, this is possible without losing huge amounts of musclw mass. Some loss is possible and that would effect a world class athlete.

tbill
07-06-2004, 18:39
Originally posted by legspreader
ok this begs the question how many 'boyfriends' she has and how much she costs you. I've seen the senario a few times. hell thats how model friend of mine got a new car and a very nice new apartment in the center

Oh, the cynicism on this board. It's love I tell you!

:sunny:

camus
07-06-2004, 18:39
Originally posted by legspreader
ok this begs the question how many 'boyfriends' she has and how much she costs you. I've seen the senario a few times. hell thats how model friend of mine got a new car and a very nice new apartment in the center

I don't think he cares. This arrangement is likely well-understood by both parties (note the "that's why I came to Moscow" comment).

I think it's creepy, but that's an issue for tbill and his whore ... er "girlfriend".

tbill
07-06-2004, 18:54
Originally posted by camus
I don't think he cares. This arrangement is likely well-understood by both parties (note the "that's why I came to Moscow" comment).

I think it's creepy, but that's an issue for tbill and his whore ... er "girlfriend".

Camus, if you are going to call someones girlfriend a whore you should put a little smiling emoticon next to it so I know you are joking.

legspreader
07-06-2004, 18:58
Originally posted by tbill
Oh, the cynicism on this board. It's love I tell you!

:sunny:

oh the naivety of some on this board cant tell you how many girls i've been with whom i later found had a live in boyfriend, fiance or even husband

DPG
07-06-2004, 18:59
Originally posted by legspreader
oh the naivety of some on this board cant tell you how many girls i've been with whom i later found had a live in boyfriend, fiance or even husband

Wouldn't that rather make you the naive one....?!

camus
07-06-2004, 18:59
Originally posted by tbill
Camus, if you are going to call someones girlfriend a whore you should put a little smiling emoticon next to it so I know you are joking.

You should put a smiling emoticon next to all of your posts which refer to a 20 year old girl who goes out with a 300 lb man of middle age as "loving girlfriend".

You didn't have this kind of luck in the United States and not without reason.

tbill
07-06-2004, 19:07
Originally posted by camus
You should put a smiling emoticon next to all of your posts which refer to a 20 year old girl who goes out with a 300 lb man of middle age as "loving girlfriend".

You didn't have this kind of luck in the United States and not without reason.

Make that 265 lbs. thanks to Dr Atkins, may his name be praised.

And how would you know what luck I had in the US? I was told you are an a$$hole, which is why I refrained from addressing you, now I know why.

legspreader
07-06-2004, 19:09
Originally posted by DPG
Wouldn't that rather make you the naive one....?!

not neccisarily i know the potential for the situation and thus wary of it but in many cases its very hard to see until so things slip on their part.

camus
07-06-2004, 19:11
Originally posted by tbill
Make that 265 lbs. thanks to Dr Atkins, may his name be praised.

And how would you know what luck I had in the US? I was told you are an a$$hole, which is why I refrained from addressing you, now I know why.

Your (lack of) luck in the US was made clear by your own statement, specifically: "this is why I came to Russia", implying that were you able to find 20 year old hotties willing to sleep with you in the USA, you wouldn't be here. The fact that you brag about banging "hot 20 year old ass" (not in exact wording, but surely in sentiment) only serves to reaffirm this.

So sorry for getting in the way of your delusions. Do carry on.

tbill
07-06-2004, 19:11
Originally posted by legspreader
not neccisarily i know the potential for the situation and thus wary of it but in many cases its very hard to see until so things slip on their part.

Maybe you have a personality that attracts those type of women? ;)

camus
07-06-2004, 19:13
Your (lack of) luck in the US was made clear by your own statement, specifically: "this is why I came to Russia", implying that were you able to find 20 year old hotties willing to sleep with you in the USA, you wouldn't be here. The fact that you brag about banging "hot 20 year old ass" (not in exact wording, but surely in sentiment) only serves to reaffirm this.

So sorry for getting in the way of your delusions. Do carry on.


PS. How much exactly *is* this fine young ladyt costing you ?

DPG
07-06-2004, 19:15
Originally posted by legspreader
not neccisarily i know the potential for the situation and thus wary of it but in many cases its very hard to see until so things slip on their part.

So what you are saying, is that you have the ability to realise which women could possibly have a live-in boyfriend, fiance or husband??

You know, I am just looking out of the window on to Prospect Mira and have realised that I too appear to have been blessed with the very same skill:

Her, her, her, quite possibly her, probably her, definitely her, her, her, her...ALL WOMEN could have the "potential for that situation"!!

Polia Ivanova
07-06-2004, 19:17
One word about exercise.

It is all right if you live relatively close to your office and have a gym nearby. But what if not and you just cannot stick it into your daily routine.
Believe me when I moved to rural England I spent more time commuting than in Moscow and joining a gym wasn't an option - working out once a week maybe it works a bit but bitter feeling that you spend a lot of money but able to use it only during the weekends when it is crowded. Jogging while it drizzles is not a pleasure either.

So why not Atkins

One revelation I gain doing Atkins - it right for me. When I eat carby food I store fat instantly - that is what excess production of insulin does to you.
That is how it happens:
You eat carbs - your blood sugar goes high - you OVERPRODUCE insulin (highlighted only relevant to people with certain metabolism) - your body instantly stores all carbs into fat (because sugar level is high and your brain thinks you are not hungry and it is time to make some reserves) - but it is not enough - excessive insulin lowers your sugar level and you are hungry again.
People with insulin imbalances are trapped in this - eat - fat - hungry circle and advice to restrict calories (and eat carbs) is really pathetic because for them carbohydrates are like addictive drug.
I was suffering from deep hypoglycaemic attacks and Atkins cured it all. That was a moment of truth - to stop having low blood sugar troubles you should STOP eating carbs. People who doesn't know what hypoglycaemic attack means and advise you to eat "sensibly" may as well shout up - it is like advising a cat to turn into a dog.

I do not have any allergies for instance but I won't force a person with an allergy to eat something he cannot. But may be I am carb allergic?

camus
07-06-2004, 19:19
Originally posted by Polia Ivanova
One word about exercise.

It is all right if you live relatively close to your office and have a gym nearby. But what if not and you just cannot stick it into your daily routine.
Believe me when I moved to rural England I spent more time commuting than in Moscow and joining a gym wasn't an option - working out once a week maybe it works a bit but bitter feeling that you spend a lot of money but able to use it only during the weekends when it is crowded. Jogging while it drizzles is not a pleasure either.

So why not Atkins

One revelation I gain doing Atkins - it right for me. When I eat carby food I store fat instantly - that is what excess production of insulin does to you.
That is how it happens:
You eat carbs - your blood sugar goes high - you OVERPRODUCE insulin (highlighted only relevant to people with certain metabolism) - your body instantly stores all carbs into fat (because sugar level is high and your brain thinks you are not hungry and it is time to make some reserves) - but it is not enough - excessive insulin lowers your sugar level and you are hungry again.
People with insulin imbalances are trapped in this - eat - fat - hungry circle and advice to restrict calories (and eat carbs) is really pathetic because for them carbohydrates are like addictive drug.
I was suffering from deep hypoglycaemic attacks and Atkins cured it all. That was a moment of truth - to stop having low blood sugar troubles you should STOP eating carbs. People who doesn't know what hypoglycaemic attack means and advise you to eat "sensibly" may as well shout up - it is like advising a cat to turn into a dog.

I do not have any allergies for instance but I won't force a person with an allergy to eat something he cannot. But may be I am carb
allergic?

I've gone running in the pouring rain. If you want to be lazy, be lazy, but don't make excuses for it.

DPG
07-06-2004, 19:19
Originally posted by Polia Ivanova
One word about exercise.

It is all right if you live relatively close to your office and have a gym nearby. But what if not and you just cannot stick it into your daily routine.
Believe me when I moved to rural England I spent more time commuting than in Moscow and joining a gym wasn't an option - working out once a week maybe it works a bit but bitter feeling that you spend a lot of money but able to use it only during the weekends when it is crowded. Jogging while it drizzles is not a pleasure either.

Press-ups, sit-ups, squat thrusts, dumbells at home, exercise bike, rowing machine, home gym...

Those who wish to find a way to exercise will...(at least I always have).

camus
07-06-2004, 19:20
Originally posted by DPG
Press-ups, sit-ups, squat thrusts, dumbells at home, eexeercise bike, rowing machine...

Those who wish to find a way to exercise will...(at least I always have).

A-f*cking-men.

Polia Ivanova
07-06-2004, 19:32
Originally posted by DPG
Press-ups, sit-ups, squat thrusts, dumbells at home, exercise bike, rowing machine, home gym...

Those who wish to find a way to exercise will...(at least I always have).

3 hours a day spent commuting + accounting exams coming + shitty husband + stress from divorce

And have you seen a size of English rooms. I tought they are small in Russia but I after I have seen 4 sq.m room which they dare to call a BEDROOM (a closet with a window more lile it)

Guys you will never learn. Different people, different metabolism, different timeschedule, different everything.

If you tried it all - try Atkins. It works. I wouldn't say that resticting to only proteins and fat means no pain but it is easy and pleasant eating plan.

aliwilliams
07-06-2004, 19:33
Originally posted by camus
I've gone running in the pouring rain. If you want to be lazy, be lazy, but don't make excuses for it.

the rain pisses me off - but I still train
the wind pisses me off - but I still train
the snow pisses me off - but I still train

The obstacles to training are all in the mind.

If you want to do it you will work round the other pressures. I know plenty of people who have.

camus
07-06-2004, 19:34
Originally posted by Polia Ivanova
3 hours a day spent commuting + accounting exams coming + shitty husband + stress from divorce

And have you seen a size of English rooms. I tought they are small in Russia but I after I have seen 4 sq.m room which they dare to call a BEDROOM (a closet with a window more lile it)

Guys you will never learn. Different people, different metabolism, different timeschedule, different everything.

If you tried it all - try Atkins. It works. I wouldn't say that resticting to only proteins and fat means no pain but it is easy and pleasant eating plan.

Easy and pleasant. Everything has to be f*cking easy and pleasant. Most of anything worthwhile in life isn't easy and pleasant.

Different people, (nominally) different excuses.

If you want to exercise you will, if you want to make excuses there are plenty of those to go around as well. There is no point in arguing further.

tbill
07-06-2004, 19:34
Originally posted by camus
Your (lack of) luck in the US was made clear by your own statement, specifically: "this is why I came to Russia", implying that were you able to find 20 year old hotties willing to sleep with you in the USA, you wouldn't be here. The fact that you brag about banging "hot 20 year old ass" (not in exact wording, but surely in sentiment) only serves to reaffirm this.

So sorry for getting in the way of your delusions. Do carry on.


PS. How much exactly *is* this fine young ladyt costing you ?

Show me all the 37 year old guys making under $100k a year with 20 year old girlfriends. I'll give you a dollar for each one.

Of course, I am not going to have as much luck in the US with women. Your an idiot.

I tried being pleasant before and you have the worst online personality I have ever encountered. I doubt you have many friends. I feel sorry for you. Try being less of a prick. Can you?

I'll wait for the apology but I doubt its coming. it would be a good idea though. You would avoid the following scenario.

tbill: Hello, my name is Bill, I go by tbill on expat.ru.
camus: I go by Camus.
tbill:(bitch slap) Oops, I know a good dentist.

camus
07-06-2004, 19:36
Originally posted by aliwilliams
the rain pisses me off - but I still train
the wind pisses me off - but I still train
the snow pisses me off - but I still train

The obstacles to training are all in the mind.

Yes, but lame rationalizations will always trump logic.

tbill
07-06-2004, 19:38
Originally posted by aliwilliams
the rain pisses me off - but I still train
the wind pisses me off - but I still train
the snow pisses me off - but I still train

The obstacles to training are all in the mind.

I'll remember that next winter. This fever is all in my mind. This pneumonia is all in my mind. This broken leg is all in my mind. :agree:

camus
07-06-2004, 19:39
Originally posted by tbill
[B]Show me all the 37 year old guys making under $100k a year with 20 year old girlfriends. I'll give you a dollar for each one.

Of course, I am not going to have as much luck in the US with women. Your an idiot.



First, it's "you're". Learn it, use it, appear half-way literate.

Second, No Sh*t Sherlock. Even with your limited intelligence, you seem to have an inkling of why (some) women are after you here. For some reason you can't quite put 2 and 2 together, though.

aliwilliams
07-06-2004, 19:39
Originally posted by camus
Yes, but lame rationalizations will always trump logic.

Tell that to my physio

camus
07-06-2004, 19:40
Originally posted by tbill
I'll remember that next winter. This fever is all in my mind. This pneumonia is all in my mind. This broken leg is all in my mind. :agree:

To one extent or another, yes. Lance Armstrong (you may have heard the name), for instance trained the day after brain surgery. I think that, comparatively, a little jog in the mist ain't so bad.

camus
07-06-2004, 19:41
Originally posted by aliwilliams
Tell that to my physio

Eh ? I don't follow.

camus
07-06-2004, 19:42
sdfdsf

Polia Ivanova
07-06-2004, 19:45
All people with knackered joints and knees that I met here did jogging or some sort of heavy exercise in the past.

Now they are slim with either hip replacement or they are waiting for one.

When it takes to exercise people cannot see dangers and they say exercise are addictive - just like a tobacco.

I do crunchies on my Total Gym although I really have difficulties sticking it into a standard English room. But unless it is 3 hours a day I am bloody lazy.

I am all right

aliwilliams
07-06-2004, 19:45
Originally posted by camus
Eh ? I don't follow.

"If you keep pushing your body harder than it is built to take you run the risk of damaging yourself permanently" (and I have)


It's all about how bad you want it. There is no lame rationalisation. Just the desire to win.

I shall never forget one thing said to me by a former coach:

Quitters stop when they're tired. Winners stop when they've won.

camus
07-06-2004, 19:47
Originally posted by Polia Ivanova
All people with knackered joints and knees that I met here did jogging or some sort of heavy exercise in the past.

Now they are slim with either hip replacement or they are waiting for one.

When it takes to exercise people cannot see dangers and they say exercise are addictive - just like a tobacco.

I do crunchies on my Total Gym although I really have difficulties sticking it into a standard English room. But unless it is 3 hours a day I am bloody lazy.

I am all right

Again, excuses. If you're concerned about ruining your joints (hip replacement from jogging is pretty ludicrous BTW), you can always do something low-impact such as cycling.

Incidently, occasional high-impact "hip replacement inducing" exercise is GOOD for you.

camus
07-06-2004, 19:49
Originally posted by aliwilliams
"If you keep pushing your body harder than it is built to take you run the risk of damaging yourself permanently" (and I have)


It's all about how bad you want it. There is no lame rationalisation. Just the desire to win.

I shall never forget one thing said to me by a former coach:

Quitters stop when they're tired. Winners stop when they've won.

Sure, and as far as I'm concerned the vast majority of the Atkins Zealots have no real will of note (if it isn't "easy and pleasant" it's not worth doing)

aliwilliams
07-06-2004, 19:54
Originally posted by Polia Ivanova
All people with knackered joints and knees that I met here did jogging or some sort of heavy exercise in the past.

When it takes to exercise people cannot see dangers and they say exercise are addictive - just like a tobacco.

I am all right

Pushing yourself comes with risk. It's all about whether you are prepared to take them.

I have a twisted spine, a rotated shoulder, a knee that dislocates itself and i can't straigten my fingers any more. (and I'm nowhere near being middle aged)

I still train hard, because I enjoy exercise and the damage is one of the costs of pushing my body so hard for so long.

I'm not telling you all to go out and do this to yourselves, but it is addictive and it's a lifestyle for me. With how it makes me feel and with what i have achieved I am happy to have paid the physical price it has cost me

Polia Ivanova
07-06-2004, 20:55
Originally posted by aliwilliams
Pushing yourself comes with risk. It's all about whether you are prepared to take them.

I have a twisted spine, a rotated shoulder, a knee that dislocates itself and i can't straigten my fingers any more. (and I'm nowhere near being middle aged)

I still train hard, because I enjoy exercise and the damage is one of the costs of pushing my body so hard for so long.

I'm not telling you all to go out and do this to yourselves, but it is addictive and it's a lifestyle for me. With how it makes me feel and with what i have achieved I am happy to have paid the physical price it has cost me

no comments

I stick to a sensible lifestyle. I am going to use my legs and spine all my life.

I remember my student exchange visit to Holland sometime ago. One Dutch girl said that she was very much into jogging and then her family moved to Far East so she stopped doing it - no facilities and women do not jog on the streets there. Her bones shrunk and she had difficulties running, walking long distances and even driving.
Stuff it. Skip a gym and be healthy.
Everything is a medicine and everything is a poison. The measure is what defines it. I walk a lot and do my crunchies. Enough for me.

sUbsTANce
07-06-2004, 22:32
Originally posted by tbill
Show me all the 37 year old guys making under $100k a year with 20 year old girlfriends. I'll give you a dollar for each one.

Of course, I am not going to have as much luck in the US with women. Your an idiot.


the reason u have lots of luck with girls here is obvious and i believe was discussed on this webiste ages ago- these 20 year old girls dream of marrying u and going back to ur country in search for a 'better life'. look beneath the cover- is ur girl educated? does she work? earn good money? does she come from a well off family? does she herself own anything at all? didnt think so!

from all ive read on this thread, u appear to be a very insecure man, and even if u weighed 150 pounds, or 350, insecurity is definitely something repelling in a man...get some self confidence.

tbill
07-06-2004, 23:25
Originally posted by sUbsTANce
the reason u have lots of luck with girls here is obvious and i believe was discussed on this webiste ages ago- these 20 year old girls dream of marrying u and going back to ur country in search for a 'better life'. look beneath the cover- is ur girl educated? does she work? earn good money? does she come from a well off family? does she herself own anything at all? didnt think so!

from all ive read on this thread, u appear to be a very insecure man, and even if u weighed 150 pounds, or 350, insecurity is definitely something repelling in a man...get some self confidence.

I am secure in some things, my weight not being one of them. But I am damn good looking. I am confident I am smarter than the majority. I make a good living and I work for myself so I am not going to get fired. By Russian standards, her family is very well off. She does not have jack, but neither did I at 20. I am planning on living here for a long time. She doesn't want to leave. She is no greencard girl or golddigger.

And since when did this thread become a discussion about me? If you want to know me, do not think you can just by reading some posts on a message board. Come to one of the expat gatherings on Friday night. I am very personable. I lovwe good conversations and I like meeting new people. Except for Camus, I am going to kill him. ;) Just kidding. Maybe.

sUbsTANce
08-06-2004, 00:20
Originally posted by tbill
I am secure in some things, my weight not being one of them. But I am damn good looking. I am confident I am smarter than the majority. I make a good living and I work for myself so I am not going to get fired. By Russian standards, her family is very well off. She does not have jack, but neither did I at 20. I am planning on living here for a long time. She doesn't want to leave. She is no greencard girl or golddigger.

And since when did this thread become a discussion about me? If you want to know me, do not think you can just by reading some posts on a message board. Come to one of the expat gatherings on Friday night. I am very personable. I lovwe good conversations and I like meeting new people. Except for Camus, I am going to kill him. ;) Just kidding. Maybe.

well, seems like u r one of the few lucky ones to get a girl like that! best of luck in everything!

p.s. thanx for the invite, i might do that

legspreader
08-06-2004, 09:12
Originally posted by tbill
Maybe you have a personality that attracts those type of women? ;)

actaully there are way more of those types than you think and two i'm the type of personality that attracts woman period.

legspreader
08-06-2004, 09:15
Originally posted by DPG
So what you are saying, is that you have the ability to realise which women could possibly have a live-in boyfriend, fiance or husband??

You know, I am just looking out of the window on to Prospect Mira and have realised that I too appear to have been blessed with the very same skill:

Her, her, her, quite possibly her, probably her, definitely her, her, her, her...ALL WOMEN could have the "potential for that situation"!!

how does that apply to my post. I was not saying i have an innate ability but after time many flat out say it or intentially or inadvertidly drop hints of it.

legspreader
08-06-2004, 09:20
Originally posted by Polia Ivanova
3 hours a day spent commuting + accounting exams coming + shitty husband + stress from divorce

And have you seen a size of English rooms. I tought they are small in Russia but I after I have seen 4 sq.m room which they dare to call a BEDROOM (a closet with a window more lile it)

Guys you will never learn. Different people, different metabolism, different timeschedule, different everything.

If you tried it all - try Atkins. It works. I wouldn't say that resticting to only proteins and fat means no pain but it is easy and pleasant eating plan.

will there is a will there is a way if something is important to you you will find a way.... Atkins cures a symptom not the problem so what you're doing is putting a bandaid on a much larger problem

Innosranets
08-06-2004, 11:32
Originally posted by sUbsTANce
the reason u have lots of luck with girls here is obvious and i believe was discussed on this webiste ages ago- these 20 year old girls dream of marrying u and going back to ur country in search for a 'better life'. look beneath the cover- is ur girl educated? does she work? earn good money? does she come from a well off family? does she herself own anything at all? didnt think so!

from all ive read on this thread, u appear to be a very insecure man, and even if u weighed 150 pounds, or 350, insecurity is definitely something repelling in a man...get some self confidence.

Alright. I'm putting my donuts down for a sec here to say, that's pretty un-f*cking-called for. You have no idea who tbill or his girlfriend are, yet resort to hackneyed, insulting--and kinda racist, if you ask me--sterotype characterizations of him and his little Miss.

Tbill's come out said how much he weighed (not something I'm confident enough to do, that's for sure) and how psyched he is to have a found a method to lose weight. F*cking good for him. Maybe he's a little over-enthusiastic (tbill, actually, you remind me of a born-again Christian), but I think we can understand his excitement. Heck, if I had half an inkling of will-power and determinedly stayed on a diet, I'd be pretty ecstatic at those results too.

I ain't no diet man. All you nutrition folks may have some rather legitimate points, but really, folks, we're talking about diets. Let's not revert to ad-hominem attacks on significant others. Bit out of line, no ?

Back to my pizza,
Innosranets

rantandrave
08-06-2004, 12:27
Not all the 'nutrition folks' were engaging in personal attacks on tbill, or his 'little miss'. But you're right on one score - he does sound exactly like a born-again Christian. Waiting for the rapture, are you?

sUbsTANce
08-06-2004, 12:34
Originally posted by Innosranets
Alright. I'm putting my donuts down for a sec here to say, that's pretty un-f*cking-called for. You have no idea who tbill or his girlfriend are, yet resort to hackneyed, insulting--and kinda racist, if you ask me--sterotype characterizations of him and his little Miss.

Tbill's come out said how much he weighed (not something I'm confident enough to do, that's for sure) and how psyched he is to have a found a method to lose weight. F*cking good for him. Maybe he's a little over-enthusiastic (tbill, actually, you remind me of a born-again Christian), but I think we can understand his excitement. Heck, if I had half an inkling of will-power and determinedly stayed on a diet, I'd be pretty ecstatic at those results too.



i am indeed happy for tbill, really, i just dont approve of the method he chose to achieve those great results! im not saying im any better- i occasionally binge, then take laxatives, or go without food for days and exhaust myself with exercise, however i strive for balance, and i am happiest when i achieve balance (doesnt always work though unfortunately)...but when that happens im just as enthusiastic about it, as tbill is about his achievements..

with regard to my stereotyping- i apologize if i offended anyone here, or if someones wounds r still sore..i admit i crossed the line, nevertheless tbill himself said he didnt have much luck with women in the US, and he does have luck here- does the story ring any bells? im not saying anything of the extraordinary, i myself know girls who date expats just coz hey want to leave russia- lots of girls like that....yes, i do not know tbill and his gf, and that is why in my last post i said that he is lucky to be dating a girl who is not a golddigger...

best of luck to everyone!!! :)

Innosranets
08-06-2004, 12:36
Originally posted by rantandrave
Not all the 'nutrition folks' were engaging in personal attacks on tbill, or his 'little miss'. But you're right on one score - he does sound exactly like a born-again Christian. Waiting for the rapture, are you?

Rant,

I wasn't referring to you specifically or generally. In fact, your specific arguments may have been rather factually correct. As you can see, I quoted a post which my comments were most directed towards.

I think the whole thing was a little carried away given the subject matter at hand, but my remarks on ad-hominem attacks weren't directed at you.

Toofuses
08-06-2004, 12:36
Um, is it just me, or does binge/laxatives/starvation/exhaust and balance seem oxymoronic?

rantandrave
08-06-2004, 12:37
Thanks, I know you weren't chastizing me specifically. You had a good point anyway, the comments you were referring to were offensive and also massively off-topic.

aliwilliams
08-06-2004, 12:54
Originally posted by Innosranets
Rant,

I think the whole thing was a little carried away given the subject matter at hand,

I felt it did too.

It wasn't a discussion about anyone's personal lives and that should never have entered into it. It was a discussion about diets and health.

Despite my disagreeing with the Atkin's diet I do wish Bill every success with his goals to get in shape - he is at least taking a step to dealing with something that he quite clearly feels is an issue for him.

DPG
08-06-2004, 17:37
Originally posted by legspreader
i'm the type of personality that attracts woman period.

I don't doubt it - women loving modesty as they do...

legspreader
08-06-2004, 18:59
Originally posted by DPG
I don't doubt it - women loving modesty as they do...

why because you don't have any luck? that doesnt mean the rest of us are in the same boat.... In fact i am generally very much on the modest side.

tbill
08-06-2004, 19:01
Originally posted by rantandrave
Not all the 'nutrition folks' were engaging in personal attacks on tbill, or his 'little miss'. But you're right on one score - he does sound exactly like a born-again Christian. Waiting for the rapture, are you?

Just in case there is anybody who has read my posts on this thread and taken the little religious vinettes at the end of my posts seriously, I was joking.

:) This smiley face proves it.

DPG
08-06-2004, 19:08
Originally posted by legspreader
why because you don't have any luck? that doesnt mean the rest of us are in the same boat....

Christ, I can count the number of people in this thread who don't make ridiculous generalisations about people they have never met on about 2 fingers...

legspreader
08-06-2004, 19:11
Originally posted by DPG
Christ, I can count the number of people in this thread who don't make ridiculous generalisations about people they have never met on about 2 fingers...

funny how you started with me isnt it.

DPG
08-06-2004, 19:15
Actually. I jumped in because of your (fairly offensive in my view) generalisations about TBill...if you scroll back through my replies and quotes, you will find that I haven't made a single generalisation, other than my comments about metabolic rates, muscle growth and diet which are scientifically proven.

legspreader
08-06-2004, 19:24
i was actually refering to your comments about me and what exactly about me do you find offensive...

tbill
08-06-2004, 19:49
Originally posted by legspreader
i was actually refering to your comments about me and what exactly about me do you find offensive...

You mean other than your personality? Thanks folks I'll be here for two shows for the next week I hope to see you out here.

:D

Sorry legspreader, you can't leave yourself that open and not expect some jerk to take a shot at you. I would be that jerk.

legspreader
08-06-2004, 19:51
no worries i have a thick skin

exyabloko
10-06-2004, 04:58
the best diet ever is french diet!

breakfast - sex, coffee and cereal

lunch - sex

dinner - you eat ever you like , than it is time for sex


:)

Sadie
12-08-2004, 13:23
How does it come, I'd been doing Atkins for a couple of weeks, when heard he recently died of heart atack, conceivably of his diet .. :eh: ..
that's the best diet ever, except for I am totally blocked from my beloved McFlurry.. could it be he died because of the lack of ice cream in his organism?.. blin :confused:

Maine Surfer
12-08-2004, 13:27
I LOVE McFlurry as well :D

Sadie what's your favorite flavor?

Sadie
12-08-2004, 13:30
strawberry, plus i trained them to make caramel with rice instead of chocolate ;)
Maine, how to combine icecream with Atkins, for only not to die of dieting, huh :confused: ;)

Maine Surfer
12-08-2004, 13:38
I don't really worry about my weight, I'm 113 kg of mostly bones and muscles, just a liiiiiiitlle extra fat.

And you, Saddie??? You look fine to me, why are you dieting? Just stay where you are, that's all.

Anyway, not being able not to eat McFlurries is one big Atkins turn off for me. Why bother?

Sadie
12-08-2004, 13:44
Maine, talking of icecream, it is probably the most strenuous test of my will in my life :D:D:D But when it comes to fried icecream, I give up completely :p:inlove:
Back to serious question, why the hell did Atkins die?

Maine Surfer
12-08-2004, 13:46
Because he had heart attack, he was overweight! I've heard it from many different sources

Maine Surfer
12-08-2004, 13:47
speaking of devil, it's 1:30 pm and I'm off to have a McFlurry!! Yeeaahh!

Sadie
12-08-2004, 13:52
NU! YOU! eat one extra for me, and PM me how it was :p

tbill
12-08-2004, 14:56
He was picked up on the metro for not having the right papers. Then he overdosed on drugs at the station. Before he died he shot himself in the head with an imaginary gun and jumped out the window.

chrisj_m
12-08-2004, 14:57
hehe - teach 'em to visit moscow ;)

LollyDoll
13-08-2004, 07:30
I hope no one minds if I throw my two cents in here about the Atkins diet. In no way am I against anyone who does it. Whatever works for them and hoorah.

The good thing about Atkins/low carb diets:

Low carb diets shift the body into a state called Ketosis. While in Ketosis, the body has used up it's store of glycogen (blood sugar) and moved into a fat burning mode to fuel your bodily functions. This can be compared to a time in fasting. After seven days of not eating food, the body will resort to burning fat rather than carbs because there are none left or not enough for one's enery to fuel off of. With Atkins or a low card diet, reaching this state can take somewhere around 2 weeks[?].
It is good to be in this state, because by eating less carbs you will have less cravings and be getting to the base of the problem - body fat. Now that your body is in this state, it is already burning fat and protein, but like anything your body uses up it must be replaced.

Where Atkins went wrong:

Most people who are starting on these diets are obese or overweight. The majority of people who are, do have heart problems due to high levels of cholesterol and high blood pressure. High cholesterol levels are a result of eating too much meat/dairy, too many calories, and the most dangerous saturated and transaturated fats (which come from meat and dairy). People who are in this situation need to lower their cholesterol intake and get down to a stable blood pressure and cholesterol level.

A lot of people will go out and buy diet pills. These contain caffeine or doses of ephedra which stimulate and raise your blood pressure. This is dangerous for people whos blood pressure is already at a high level and can result in a heart attack.

To the point. Anyone who has a high cholesterol level needs to lower it. With Atkins this is not the way. Carbs are being replaced with fat and protein from meat and dairy. There are other sources of food which hold fat and protein. 'Good fats' and cholesterol lowering protein from soy products, tofu, fiber, and healthy fats from nuts, seeds and oils. Not to say while on this diet you will not lose weight, but I think Atkins goes about it the wrong way and should not be shoveling meat on one's plate to do so.

One should not live off meat alone. The most foolish thing a person can say while on this diet is "Hey, it's all low carb eat as much as you want". This is no different from the low fat/reduced sugar craze that America went on while gobbling down boxes of reduced fat Chips Ahoy. In the end, one is being replaced with the other. On low fat products there are more sugars/carbs and on low carb food products there are more fats.
You must watch your fat intake, protein intake, calories must be at ones personal level and so must carbs. Everything in moderation.

This is just my take on the diet from knowledge which I gather for myself and facts being put together.

(Excuse me if I have repeated myself and made no sense in places. I haven't slept in 48 hours.)

Ned Kelly
13-08-2004, 08:11
Originally posted by LollyDoll
(Excuse me if I have repeated myself and made no sense in places. I haven't slept in 48 hours.)

you're about 400-times more coherent than most here...

i still maintain eight strong coffees and a packet of a cigarettes a day is the best diet of all - i've managed to stick to it for close to 15 years now. ;)

LollyDoll
14-08-2004, 05:16
Thank you :)
I could point out the reasons why coffee is bad for you and contributes to added aging, but since you've been living off coffee and cigarettes for 15 years, it most likely would not matter in the slightest what I say ^_^;

Ledka
25-01-2005, 16:44
So have anyone tried Atkin's diet since that time? What are your results?

Sadie
25-01-2005, 16:54
I did for a month - it worked despite to me it was incomprehensible. From which i concluded sugar and bread are the main evil :)

Ledka
25-01-2005, 17:01
If it worked why didn't you continue that. Was it hard? Did you gain the weight you lost?
I am on my first induction day today and "po zakonu podlosti" my colleagues presented me with different types of sweets today for my name day. I am try to resist from it... but it's so hard. Sila est, voli net.
What did you actually eat? All I could pick up at lunch today was pure vegetables, as everything seemed to be with lots of carbs in it though the choice was not bad. I don't want to go to work with my own lunch boxes. Is their something appropriate for this diet you can buy ready? I am not in the mood wasting my time cooking at nights.

Sadie
25-01-2005, 17:21
Ledka, I ate veggies, nuts, meat, fish, seafood, salads, grass and other similar crap. No, it wasn't hard, actually i simply didn't eat sugar, bread, potatoes and rice.
Now I ran to other extreme: i don't smoke, don't drink and do all the rest boring healthy stuff. This would be much more tough for you, trust me ;)
Ready food? Yes, I was addicted to korean salads they sold: asparagus, spicy fish, mushrooms, carrot, kinda rabbit's style of eating.

Ledka
25-01-2005, 17:31
Well, thanks for reply Sadie! I'll try not to fall out off the wagon.

Korean salads... I suspescted that they added sugar into it, and the shopassistant prooved it to me. :(

Sadie
25-01-2005, 17:45
I reckon it's insignificant, so I wouldn't and actually didn't bother, yet it worked. Also I would give you an advice: if in the middle of your torture you suddenly want a huge piece of cake: take it and eat it, as the most tough part of any diet is psychological i assume, so be yourself as you say ;)

tbill
25-01-2005, 17:53
Ledka,

Excuse me for butting in on your Atkins (May his name be praised) conversation. Just a little adivce when starting induction. Think of it as breaking an addiction. If you cheat you are giving your body a reason not to stop using carbs as fuel and you will never get to the point where you will start burning fat.

Also, induction should take you anywhere from two weeks to a month. It depends on a lot of factors (your metabolism, how much you excercise, genetics) Don't get discouraged if steady weight loss does not begin for a couple of weeks.

Just remember that it is extremely important to avoid carbs during induction and to SLOWLY add them back into your diet starting with veggies and such.

Good luck, Atkinsu akbar.

DJ Biscuit
25-01-2005, 17:55
Tbill, his name may be praised, him being dead an' all.

But seriously how much did you lose and in how much time?

Ledka
25-01-2005, 18:19
Originally posted by Sadie
I reckon it's insignificant, so I wouldn't and actually didn't bother, yet it worked. Also I would give you an advice: if in the middle of your torture you suddenly want a huge piece of cake: take it and eat it, as the most tough part of any diet is psychological i assume, so be yourself as you say ;)

I was thinking a lot before doing it and if I decided something I would do it to the very end and I won't allow a piece of cake to seduce me. Otherwise it won't be me.

tbill
25-01-2005, 18:21
DJB,

I lost 40 lbs (13.5 Kgs.) From the last week of January 2003 until last week of May, 4 months.

Ledka
25-01-2005, 18:22
Originally posted by tbill
DJB,

I lost 40 lbs (13.5 Kgs.) From the last week of January 2003 until last week of May, 4 months.

that's a good result! Congrats!

85StoneWhiteFurball
25-01-2005, 18:26
Demon list:

1) rice

2) bread

3) pasta

4) sugar

5) banana

6) potato

I use modified Atkins - South Beach Diet - lost 32 odd kilos in under a year, but am now stuck trying to get rid of another 8-10. Tried Atkins induction a couple of weeks ago and failed to go through with it - may try again starting tomorrow. In my case it may not be worth the effort and I'm probably better off staying at 98 (kilo, not stone, wise guys) and lifting weights. But that is boring.

Halyavshik
25-01-2005, 18:29
Originally posted by tbill
DJB,

I lost 40 lbs (13.5 Kgs.) From the last week of January 2003 until last week of May, 4 months.

13kgs is like 30 pounds, actually. Nevertheless, an impressive amount, tbill. You lost 30 pounds; I think I found them !

vaska
25-01-2005, 18:31
Started doing Atkins last summer. Lost 20 pounds in two months. Now seem to have hit a plateau, although I did go back to eating fruit (apples, tangerines) and berries, otherwise I was just too miserable.

85StoneWhiteFurball
25-01-2005, 18:31
Originally posted by Sadie
I reckon it's insignificant, so I wouldn't and actually didn't bother, yet it worked. Also I would give you an advice: if in the middle of your torture you suddenly want a huge piece of cake: take it and eat it,

Sure - and then start right over from the beginning :rolleyes:.

Don't cheat for at least a month. I started South Beach and then had to travel right after 2 weeks of induction ended - cheated and went right back up to my old weight after one weekend. Went back on induction for almost 2 months (with very light carbs after the 1st month) and all went well.

Also, because of the benefits of calcium and the need to avoid milk in the beginning, I highly recommend drinking Contrex water, except that 69 RUR per 1.5 litre bottle ain't cheap. I also find some benefit in mixing 2 tbsp cider vinegar with a large glass of water and drinking same - eating lemons would also help as would squeezing lemon juice into water. Apparently (edible) acid slows the absorption of carbohydrates and maintains the proper blood sugar level for losing weight.

DJ Biscuit
25-01-2005, 18:32
Duh. [edit]

tbill
25-01-2005, 19:12
Originally posted by Halyavshik
13kgs is like 30 pounds, actually. Nevertheless, an impressive amount, tbill. You lost 30 pounds; I think I found them !

Whoops, you're right. It would be about 18 Kgs.

Sadie
25-01-2005, 20:29
Originally posted by 85StoneWhiteFurball
Sure - and then start right over from the beginning :rolleyes:
you've been on diet for last one year or so, whilst I've been for last four. If you torture yourself, it will only lead to frustration and a huge psycological stress. Once you know that nothing is actually forbidden in case of emergency, you feel much more sure of yourself and it makes it much easier.
From what beginning? If you started loosing weight, than ate a piece of cake you wouldn't put on even 50 gramm of fat, not even 10 gr. You think I am wrong? I dont think so.

85StoneWhiteFurball
25-01-2005, 20:34
Originally posted by Sadie
you've been on diet for last one year or so, whilst I've been for last four.

I went down from 130 to 98 in less than one year. Unfortunately, I plateaued at 98 which is 8 kgs over my goal and 15 kgs or more over my recommended weight.

What were your results? Did you manage to lose two kilos of water weight in those four years :p? How many different diets did you try in your ever so amusing quest to weigh the same as your cat?

The rest of your post, while making sense psychologically and being thoughtful as always, is unfortunately contradicted by the way the body reacts to sugar and refined flour until it is used to the low carb diet. At this point, I have zero problem loading up on cake during a catered business or social affair - it produces no cravings and all goes back to normal in 24-48 hours. That was not the case at the beginning of my induction period - one weekend in Kazan, enjoying restaurants at 1/2 Moscow price, and that was the end of the 5 kg weight loss which I had achieved over the 2 weeks preceding the trip. I think it took me three months or so to be able to really cheat even for one meal without showing awful results.

Ghost
25-01-2005, 20:36
If you're going into the induction phase in Atkins, you can't just cheat and eat a piece of cake. The whole idea is to get your body to burn fat, not quick sugars and carbs. Getting into the induction phase is insanely difficult. Eating a piece of cake during that phase would be one of the most stupid things you could do.

Once you're out of that phase, however, it would only do minor damage.

Smurfette
25-01-2005, 21:07
Have to agree with Sadie on this one, if you just avoid starchy bloaty foods like bread potatoes pasta and sugary stuff etc you should be fine. I hate the concept of atkins so I invented my own diet (based loosely on glycemic index stuff) I eat loads of fruit and veg, reasonable amount of protein (fish, meat) then little amounts of heavy carbs and fats. Basically a healthy diet

Combined with a proper amount of serious excercise (walking doesn't count)

Worked great and all I have to do to loose a bit more is eat smaller portions of my normal food and crank up the excercise intensity - proved by loosing 3kg in the past couple of weeks with very little extra effort.

peyote
25-01-2005, 21:13
Originally posted by 85StoneWhiteFurball
Demon list:

1) rice

2) bread

3) pasta

4) sugar

5) banana

6) potato
demons? that's my normal diet! plus the vegie thing... :D

85StoneWhiteFurball
25-01-2005, 21:14
Originally posted by Smurfette
Have to agree with Sadie on this one, if you just avoid starchy bloaty foods like bread potatoes pasta and sugary stuff etc you should be fine.

That is basically the concept of the South Beach Diet. Atkins was too much for me, but I will try it once more to see if I can get rid of at least 8 more kilograms.

The only problem with Sadie's post is that cheating when getting used to low carbs can be a disaster. Psychologically what she says makes sense and it appears to be encouraging, sensible advice; physiologically it is unfortunately not true.

85StoneWhiteFurball
25-01-2005, 21:14
Originally posted by peyote
demons? that's my normal diet! plus the vegie thing... :D

Well, your body has probably become used to Castro rations :p

peyote
25-01-2005, 21:15
Originally posted by 85StoneWhiteFurball
Well, your body has probably become used to Castro rations :p LOL :D

Ghost
25-01-2005, 21:30
Originally posted by Smurfette
Have to agree with Sadie on this one, if you just avoid starchy bloaty foods like bread potatoes pasta and sugary stuff etc you should be fine.

Sadie was saying it would be ok to cheat with cake. Cake, at least in the US, is rather sugary.

Sadie
25-01-2005, 21:42
If it really bothers anyone, my personal achievement was 16 kg in three months: diet and sport, easy. You may think I am lying if you feel more comfortable with it, but I am not.
Now for all those smart.. people who say you cant break your diet. Why? I did when I was desperate for a cake. Nothing happened.

So you argue just to argue or what? I aint getting it.
Ghost, guest what? In Russia cakes are sugary too.
Then comes a stage when you need to keep the achieved results. And you'd better be calm with the diet you follow. You shouldn't be in a permanent stress - otherwise you kill your fat along with your nerves and break it at certain point. If you are calm, the diet becomes your natural way of eating.

I have always eaten, eat and will always eat cakes whenever I want - rich and sugary, and be 46-47 like I am today (almost :) ). You think you are right - up to you, I'll tell you what they taste like :p

85StoneWhiteFurball
25-01-2005, 21:48
Originally posted by Sadie
If it really bothers anyone, my personal achievement was 16

You may think I am lying if you feel more comfortable with it, but I am not.

Now for all those smart.. people who say you cant break your diet.

I know what cakes taste like - I had quite a few last week - at this maintenance point in my diet eating cake once a month is no tragedy (although I can live very well without it).

I'd never accuse you of lying - I did not know that you have ever weighed any more than you do at present, which by my standards is not very much :). I was apparently wrongly teasing you, thinking that you are one of those women who goes on a diet when the scale shows a difference of one or two kilos, which is of course water weight. I should have known that my choice for "Most Intelligent Poster" would not be so silly as to diet that way.

For that, I apologise - it was banter, with no harm meant at all.

Good for you if you managed to lose 16 in three months - that is about what I did as well but I kept losing over the next 7 or 8 months until plateauing.

We must be talking about different diets, and, of course, you and I are as different physically and genetically as any 2 people can be. Our diet goals are also completely different - I am large boned and much as I'd like to get into a size 54 or even a 56 jacket I am just about at peace with the fact that I never will without going to unhealthy extremes as far as eating is concerned.

What works for me may not work for you and vice versa, although I continue to appreciate the advice you gave me regarding apples and cider vinegar (guess what I just ate and drank :))

Once again, your post is very thoughtful and encouraging, and like all of your information posts it is worthy of much respect, but my experience has been different as far as low carb diets are concerned, and my experience is backed up by the writings of both the late Dr Atkins and Dr Agatston (South Beach Diet). Dr Atkins was quite controversial for treatments other than his diet and nearly lost his medical licence, but Dr Agatston is a highly respected cardiologist regardless of his diet book and system. Do what works for you, but I still maintain that if you are going on a low carb diet, Atkins or South Beach, do not cheat until at least a month's time and do not cheat with cake or anything very rich. Sugar plus refined flour = disastrous rise in blood sugar levels = increased production of fat.

For the record, the first time I cheated on South Beach was at the Hard Rock Cafe in December 2003 (Lost in Moscow concert), after about a month or so on the induction phase of the diet (10 kilos down), and the cheating was very minor - a little rice and of course some alcohol. No damage at all.

tbill
25-01-2005, 23:00
Sadie, Of course everyone is different and what might work you...yadda, yadda

Hey 85, Did you ever get to the point of drinking alcohol and what did you drink? I found that I had no problem with a little white wine or vodka but that was after 3 months.

85StoneWhiteFurball
26-01-2005, 08:48
At this point, I drink from time to time. Cider seems to have no effect or even a positive effect on my weight at this point.

tbill
26-01-2005, 09:23
Originally posted by 85StoneWhiteFurball
At this point, I drink from time to time. Cider seems to have no effect or even a positive effect on my weight at this point.

You mean hard cider like Strongbow? I am surprised. I thought that would be full of sugar. I know it gives me horrible hangovers.

85StoneWhiteFurball
26-01-2005, 09:26
I know - it makes no sense. But what got me started on apples and apple vinegar is that my weight actually showed LOWER the morning after I drank about six pints of cider. Had to be the beneficial effect of the apples.

In general, though, I don't drink very much anymore - I gave some of my best whisky and cognac to charity last year as it was just sitting around since I started South Beach.

Ghost
26-01-2005, 10:33
How can you say you don't drink very much anymore? A week ago, I saw you throwing them down. You were so drunk you were phasing in and out of reality.

85StoneWhiteFurball
26-01-2005, 10:37
I indeed drink to excess once every couple of months or so :). For the record, that kind of nonsense has no effect upon my weight because I can't eat the next day in any event. :) :)

I have a collection of liquor that would be the envy of many an establishment here (or would have been before I culled it) and over the past year I have had perhaps 5 shots from it, if that. Only reason I didn't give it all away is that I have something to celebrate later in the year and will need it then. After that, I doubt I will replenish my stock.

I also used to drink wine daily (allowed and recommended on my diet); as I am on Lipitor there is no point in my doing so anymore.