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View Full Version : What income family of 4 needs to live well in Moscow



Dimad828
19-06-2008, 15:36
Will $100K a year income be enough for family of 4 (2 children under age of 3) in Moscow? many thanks for your insights

DJ Biscuit
19-06-2008, 16:55
As with anything of this nature it depends on how lavish your tastes are and how big and luxurious you want your flat to be but I think with a salary of that size you and your family will be able to live very comfortably.

Flats range in price depending on amnetities, interior design and location but you will need a fair size place for a family so expect to be paying, if you want centrally located anything from 3K USD a month, I would add probably that that is minumum.

elis
19-06-2008, 17:20
Agree with Sir Biscuit. I'm not sure how far $100K goes in Haifa nowadays, but Moscow is pretty expensive. The kids are young, so i guess you won't need to worry about schooling for a couple of years. But, for future reference, any of the "expat" schools are outrageous--from what I've seen. If you don't look to live in the center, your housing expenses will be substantially less.

ghurka12
19-06-2008, 20:26
If you are a foreigner....the simple answer is no... $100k is not enough for a wife and 2 kids.

A big enough apartment is likely to cost a minimum of $3500 outisde of the centre and over $5,000 closer to the centre. Prices have gone mad with no justification. Even $3,500.00 is not going to get you anything remotely like the quality of housing you may have come from.

Then there is the education of the kids to consider...if they do not speak Russian then private education is your only option...

A grocery shop is going to cost you at least 2-3 times as much as in the UK let alone the US....

I am struggling to think of anything that is cheap or on a cost par to the West....

SalTheReturn
19-06-2008, 20:32
If you are a foreigner....the simple answer is no... $100k is not enough for a wife and 2 kids.

A big enough apartment is likely to cost a minimum of $3500 outisde of the centre and over $5,000 closer to the centre. Prices have gone mad with no justification. Even $3,500.00 is not going to get you anything remotely like the quality of housing you may have come from.

Then there is the education of the kids to consider...if they do not speak Russian then private education is your only option...

A grocery shop is going to cost you at least 2-3 times as much as in the UK let alone the US....

I am struggling to think of anything that is cheap or on a cost par to the West....

the usual crap.

grocery is not 2-3 times more than a shop in the west. if you feed yourself with oysters, well thats your business.

i am reporting your post to administration because it is misleading and might drive off Russia's foreign workforce.

ghurka12
19-06-2008, 20:42
Go for it Sal report me...you know I am right!!!

By the way...the metro is cheaper and so is the bus,,,anything else???

Oh and by the way, I have just rented a new apartment and spent a long time looking so I know what the current market is....

By the way...why don't you convert the prices in the supermarkets here (and I am talking about the cheap ones if such a thing exists) and check out the cost of the eggs, milk, butter and bread.....

Russian butter is now more expensive than the imported variets for example. I saw a price for a russian butter the other day in sedmoi continent for 110 roubles---that is over 2.00 pounds whereas in the UK you can buy good wholesome English butter for 60 pence and the best quality organic Jersey butter for 1.00....

Are you really italian or just pretending....if so why are you getting your knickers in a twist???

ghurka12
19-06-2008, 20:43
By the way Sal....I would love to buy oysters.... since you seem to be an authority... Where can I buy them these days???

DJ Biscuit
19-06-2008, 20:51
I think the original poster who asked the question about the cost of living was expecting answers from people who currently live here, like ghurka12 for example.

I would point out that prices vary depending on where you shop and what you want in terms of quality, variety and freshness.

ghurka12 mentioned Sedmoi Continent, in my opinion this is among the higher end price wise and you can find a lot cheaper by 'going local'. Azbuka Vkusa while having some beautifully presented prioducts are three times the cost for the same items elsewhere - fruit and vegatables for example. If you shop in Sedmoi Continet, Azvbuka Vkusa and Stokmanns for example then you are increasing your grocery bill straight away. So, as it depends on where you shop and what you buy your cost of living varies.

Further, recently prices have gone up across the board and many products as ghurka12 said are more expensive than in London for example no matter where you shop.

MickeyTong
19-06-2008, 20:56
the usual crap......i am reporting your post to administration because it is misleading and might drive off Russia's foreign workforce.

Ah, the Sal we all know and love......

SalTheReturn
19-06-2008, 20:56
I think the original poster who asked the question about the cost of living was expecting answers from people who currently live here, like ghurka12 for example.

I would point out that prices vary depending on where you shop and what you want in terms of quality, variety and freshness.

ghurka12 mentioned Sedmoi Continent, in my opinion this is among the higher end price wise and you can find a lot cheaper by 'going local'. Azbuka Vkusa while having some beautifully presented prioducts are three times the cost for the same items elsewhere - fruit and vegatables for example. If you shop in Sedmoi Continet, Azvbuka Vkusa and Stokmanns for example then you are increasing your grocery bill straight away. So, as it depends on where you shop and what you buy your cost of living varies.

Further, recently prices have gone up across the board and many products as ghurka12 said are more expensive than in London for example no matter where you shop.

DJ Biscuit, does not matter if I live there or not...I am constantly updated of what means living in Russia.

Btw I think you are clever enough not to side with someone who says grocery is 2-3 times more expensive than the West.

I could easily suggest to drop by your local market and see that fresh salmon, eggs, salumis, meat, milk, are either the same prices as in the west or cheaper. But Gurka would argue that "those things at markets are not eatable".

I was shopping at Ramstor in Kashirskaya: it was not 2-3 times more than in the West.

SalTheReturn
19-06-2008, 20:58
By the way Sal....I would love to buy oysters.... since you seem to be an authority... Where can I buy them these days???

you can take me to italian restaurant in Moscow, I would love to suck your salary.

electrokitchen
19-06-2008, 21:24
I found my cheap market. It's called kopeika and the prices are just like back in my hometown in Serbia. And Serbia itself is a very cheap country, much cheaper then Germany, or the States. Of course, as Sal said it depends where you shop and what you eat. I never went to Sedmoi kontinent, the prices are ridiculous there.
there are a lot of supermarkets, outside MKAD, where you can get by car or bus, and the prices are two or three times cheaper then in the center.I go to Ashan once a week and get evrything I need for a resonable price. The only thing that is really expensive in Mocow is accomodation. And some food-oysters probably. Cherries for example too. . But caviar is quite chep :)

ghurka12
19-06-2008, 21:34
Sal...I have never sucked a salary....Does it taste nice???

By the way, even in Kopeika it is still much more expensive than the UK. Cat food (whiskas) for example is 64 roubles.... cost far less in the UK... all commodities are more expensive even in the cheap produktis.

Oh and by the way, I shop in the Renuks (markets) often and have done so for the last 18+ years. The quality is often better than the supermarkets. The cost is still high though.

By the way, do you know a good Italian Restaurant in Moscow...i have not found one.

And sine you no longer live in Russia, perhaps you could enlighten me as to whether you are an emigre Russian or a true Italian. As a true Italian surely you would invite me to your apartment when next in Moscow for a wonderful home cooked Italian meal....I am just misguided??? probably...

DJ Biscuit
19-06-2008, 21:34
It's the same in London. I always find it odd when people talk about how London prices are higher than - insert place name here - but if you know where to go you can find cheaper.

For comfort and ease I understand expats on good packages going for the Azbuka Vkusa option, but I have been here 13 years and lately especially money has been tight, so I shop around. Travelling out to the MKAD to go grocery shopping is not on my list of fun things to do and unless you have transport getting the bus back with bags and bags of groceries is a nightmare.

But there are places in the centre and plenty of markets.

As with London, in Moscow you can pay 300 rubles for a beer or you can pay 60 rubles for a beer in a bar, depends what you want and where you go. If you want the basics and are not worried about glamorous interiors then you get the 60 ruble beers. It can be done, same with groceries but it takes some work and some compromise.

One just has to know what one wants and what one can afford and somehow find a happy medium.

xSnoofovich
19-06-2008, 21:44
Shop (http://www.utkanos.ru) - they are cheap like auchan and deliver for 90 ru !

DJ Biscuit
19-06-2008, 21:46
Whiskas dry cat food is 60 rubles in my local store and cat litter is 545 rubles a bag !! That's 11 GB pounds!

There are a couple of nice Italian restaurants here, Grotto near Pushkin McDs and of course if you want to spend all your salary in one night there's always Marios!

Da Cicco is okay and not too pricey.

elis
19-06-2008, 21:53
I think the original poster who asked the question about the cost of living was expecting answers from people who currently live here, like ghurka12 for example.

I would point out that prices vary depending on where you shop and what you want in terms of quality, variety and freshness.

. . .


Agreed. I have a couple local supermarkets where the prices are no worse than home (US). Also, an outside market where, if I could start learning to bargain properly, the prices would be okay, too. That said, I've been in touch with friends in the US who say that prices are through the roof right now. And not just gas. So . . . maybe food shopping here isn't that bad!



Cherries for example too. . But caviar is quite chep :)

Hey, Electrokitchen! Glad to hear from you!! I've found decent prices on cherries. (But always need to beware that fruit vendors don't sell you the overripe fruit that turns to mush before you even get home.) As for the caviar? Are we on the same planet? :)


Pet food is indeed outrageous here (as Ghurka pointed out). Double the prices I was paying in the US last year.

I think it all ends up being a give a take. And really questioning what your expectations are. Although without a doubt housing costs will be the major expense. And they are over the top here.

Bels
19-06-2008, 21:54
the usual crap.

grocery is not 2-3 times more than a shop in the west. if you feed yourself with oysters, well thats your business.

i am reporting your post to administration because it is misleading and might drive off Russia's foreign workforce.

Nice to see you back, but as usual you have no idea of what is currently like to live in Moscow. I suggest you leave that to the ones who actually live here.

Since you have been costs in for example goceries and fuel have rocketed. The cost of food and clothes have never been lower than the UK for many years.The cost of a flat in rent or purchase is ridiculously high, whether you live in the centre of Moscow, or 20km outside Moscow in the west.

The only items I can find in Moscow relatively cheap is local beers and vodka, and very cheap cigarettes. Therefore it's cheap to kill yourself. And Metro is still cheap for the moment.

DJ Biscuit
19-06-2008, 21:57
I am guessing we are talking about red caviar or eggplant caviar here!

DJ Biscuit
19-06-2008, 21:58
Yes the metro is amazingly cheap, and so are gypsy cabs in comparison to London black cabs.

SalTheReturn
19-06-2008, 22:05
Sal...I have never sucked a salary....Does it taste nice???

By the way, even in Kopeika it is still much more expensive than the UK. Cat food (whiskas) for example is 64 roubles.... cost far less in the UK... all commodities are more expensive even in the cheap produktis.

Oh and by the way, I shop in the Renuks (markets) often and have done so for the last 18+ years. The quality is often better than the supermarkets. The cost is still high though.

By the way, do you know a good Italian Restaurant in Moscow...i have not found one.

And sine you no longer live in Russia, perhaps you could enlighten me as to whether you are an emigre Russian or a true Italian. As a true Italian surely you would invite me to your apartment when next in Moscow for a wonderful home cooked Italian meal....I am just misguided??? probably...

LOL LOL you have just made a fool out of yourself

now you showed you know nothing, in fact UK has otrageous prices when comes to food and i was in london as recently as Aug 2007

you are currently running on a thin line, would not be surprised if you get banned soon

electrokitchen
19-06-2008, 22:06
Caviar, bought yesterday 54 rubles.(1.5 euros) Same size in Serbia, is around 5 euros. For me that s cheap. Normal caviar, not eggplant and rubbish.
Butter, bought today, 20 roubles. What in London is like 0.3 euros? C'mon.

SalTheReturn
19-06-2008, 22:07
I found my cheap market. It's called kopeika and the prices are just like back in my hometown in Serbia. And Serbia itself is a very cheap country, much cheaper then Germany, or the States. Of course, as Sal said it depends where you shop and what you eat. I never went to Sedmoi kontinent, the prices are ridiculous there.
there are a lot of supermarkets, outside MKAD, where you can get by car or bus, and the prices are two or three times cheaper then in the center.I go to Ashan once a week and get evrything I need for a resonable price. The only thing that is really expensive in Mocow is accomodation. And some food-oysters probably. Cherries for example too. . But caviar is quite chep :)



in fact no one is pretending a white westerner is going to drive a car and reach the outskirts. he could just drop by the local market in front of his metro station and buy good food for a honest price

DJ Biscuit
19-06-2008, 22:08
And Bels is right about clothing too. A very good Russian friend of mine has jeans, shirts and boots sent by DHL from a shop in Kansas, they are virtual and real. He goes into a store here, finds the model he wants, tries it on then orders online. Within 5 days the shirts etc are delivered to Moscow! For example the jeans he pays 50 bucks for including shipping cost 130 bucks in the shop here.

SalTheReturn
19-06-2008, 22:09
It's the same in London. I always find it odd when people talk about how London prices are higher than - insert place name here - but if you know where to go you can find cheaper.

For comfort and ease I understand expats on good packages going for the Azbuka Vkusa option, but I have been here 13 years and lately especially money has been tight, so I shop around. Travelling out to the MKAD to go grocery shopping is not on my list of fun things to do and unless you have transport getting the bus back with bags and bags of groceries is a nightmare.

But there are places in the centre and plenty of markets.

As with London, in Moscow you can pay 300 rubles for a beer or you can pay 60 rubles for a beer in a bar, depends what you want and where you go. If you want the basics and are not worried about glamorous interiors then you get the 60 ruble beers. It can be done, same with groceries but it takes some work and some compromise.

One just has to know what one wants and what one can afford and somehow find a happy medium.

i do not think in London (i remember being a student there and trying to save as much as possible - 3 pack of lamb burgers at Safeways were 5pounds in 2000) you can save as much as in Moscow. Finding good deals in London for what concern food it is REALLY difficult, even the supermarkets in the EastEnd will often apply the prices of a Tesco in downtown.

elis
19-06-2008, 22:10
The only items I can find in Moscow relatively cheap is local beers and vodka, and very cheap cigarettes. Therefore it's cheap to kill yourself. And Metro is still cheap for the moment.

Indeed!! You can't afford not to smoke here. Plus with the pollution, you don't really know what's going to kill you first.

SalTheReturn
19-06-2008, 22:12
Nice to see you back, but as usual you have no idea of what is currently like to live in Moscow. I suggest you leave that to the ones who actually live here.

Since you have been costs in for example goceries and fuel have rocketed. The cost of food and clothes have never been lower than the UK for many years.The cost of a flat in rent or purchase is ridiculously high, whether you live in the centre of Moscow, or 20km outside Moscow in the west.

The only items I can find in Moscow relatively cheap is local beers and vodka, and very cheap cigarettes. Therefore it's cheap to kill yourself. And Metro is still cheap for the moment.

LOL LOL LOL

I am not taking about rents, I am taking about food:
food items in Moscow are not 2-3 times more expensive than in the West. Everyone who say so it is just a liar and lying is a sin.

DJ Biscuit
19-06-2008, 22:14
LOL LOL you have just made a fool out of yourself

now you showed you know nothing, in fact UK has otrageous prices when comes to food and i was in london as recently as Aug 2007

you are currently running on a thin line, would not be surprised if you get banned soon

Sal, this is a discussion about comparative costs of living, and not a place to make empty threats. Please refrain.

MissAnnElk
19-06-2008, 22:15
I shop often at Sedmoi (because it is 200 meters from my house, and I have no car). I have the discount card which gets me 10% off (yes, I had to pay for that, but I recouped the cost within 6 weeks).

I'm American, so I convert everything to dollars in my head using about 23 rubles to the dollar.

The butter I buy there is often on special for 31 rubles for 250 grams. Lately, however, it's been 60, I think.

My favorite Chilean wine is now on special for 179 rubles a bottle.

Cat food . . the small box is 60 rubles. I buy Fresh Step in the pet supply stores (they don't carry it at Sedmoi), and I paid 450 rubles, I think, for 14 pounds/6.3 kg. I asked a friend in the US and she pays about the same. That box lasts a month.

A box of happy chicken eggs is around 60 rubles.

A roasted chicken is over 200 rubles, so I never buy that at Sedmoi.

Fruit and veg is much cheaper at the kiosk/truck outside the Sedmoi.

I have been in an Azbuka exactly 3 times. I am loathe to buy much of anything there . . . salad-in-a-bag is more than 200 rubles (approaching $10). In fact, I think nothing in Azbuka goes for less than 200 rubles. But it sure is gorgeous. Never dared set foot in a Stockmann's.

On the plus side: you won't pay for heat! My mobile phone sure is cheap!

electrokitchen
19-06-2008, 22:21
in fact no one is pretending a white westerner is going to drive a car and reach the outskirts. he could just drop by the local market in front of his metro station and buy good food for a honest price

Well I don't live in the center so it's not a problem for me to go once a week for ten minutes by marsrutkas. Why is that a problem? All russians buy outside the city, and they are probably less payed then westerners. And not all of them have cars. It's just a matter of comfort. And will.

Bels
19-06-2008, 22:22
I am guessing we are talking about red caviar or eggplant caviar here!


I saw some cans of black caviar in my local supermarket "Peryekrostik". They were displayed in a cabinet like the crown jewels. The smallest tin was in double thousands of figures in roubles.

For most of us now, it's down to the red caviar. :(

DJ Biscuit
19-06-2008, 22:23
I use, that is to say my cat uses, Catsan or Fresh Step and the price varies between 450 - 550 rubles for a bag, but it lasts a week not a month. Maybe I am being to generous but if it's slightly used he comes to me shouting about it!

MissAnnElk
19-06-2008, 22:27
I use, that is to say my cat uses, Catsan or Fresh Step and the price varies between 450 - 550 rubles for a bag, but it lasts a week not a month. Maybe I am being to generous but if it's slightly used he comes to me shouting about it!

I used to use Catsan, but he always managed to track it around the apartment. Ew.

I have to scoop daily, if not hourly. He doesn't mind, but *I* do. And I have a catbox with a lid (it appeared, like a gift from Heaven, in my front yard one rainy day!).

DiploKawi
19-06-2008, 22:28
Why in God's name would anyone go buy from these supermarkets at Azbukah and stockmans??? just to show that you go wasting money. I think it should be normal that you go and do your shopping from the mega malls on the MKAD, its what people in UK and USA do, they go on a once a week trip to the tesco's and wal-mart and buy from there. It is the same for accommodation, I think I would be paying the same in London if not more to be just three metro stops away from the centre, and I am paying $2500 for a a three roomed apartment. Moscow is expensive if you go to clubs and restaurants, also shopping for clothes is not cheap, at least the branded stuff.

Bels
19-06-2008, 22:40
Sal, this is a discussion about comparative costs of living, and not a place to make empty threats. Please refrain.

Don't worry, be happy. As there are a few more recent posters here much worse than Sal. Sal makes me smile,yet there are a few more recent unsavoury characters here who are a lot worse, and make me burst with fury.Thankfully I have successfully managed to set my ignore list and keep them out of my site. And I now fee much better
Keep going sal, in your own way.

However I do believe sal is out of date in regards to costs and inflation, since his last visit in Moscow.

Bels - give it a rest PLEEEEEEESE!!!! - Admin

electrokitchen
19-06-2008, 22:41
I saw some cans of black caviar in my local supermarket "Peryekrostik". They were displayed in a cabinet like the crown jewels. The smallest tin was in double thousands of figures in roubles.

For most of us now, it's down to the red caviar. :(
Jeesus, that's lot! Well come to my neighbourhood and you can eat it everyday. Just like me :)It's cheaper then tomatos, and same as orange juice. The shop definitelly don't have the "crown jewels" department. Just normal, produkti shop.

elis
19-06-2008, 23:02
A box of happy chicken eggs is around 60 rubles.


Are the sad chicken eggs even cheaper?


I think it should be normal that you go and do your shopping from the mega malls on the MKAD, its what people in UK and USA do, they go on a once a week trip to the tesco's and wal-mart and buy from there.

Not all Americans go to Wal-Mart! (I for one refuse to frequent the place.)

Also, it's not so easy here to go and get all your shopping for a one week. Unless you have a car or a pack-mule.

xSnoofovich
19-06-2008, 23:03
Are the sad chicken eggs even cheaper?





hahahahahaha -

* HUGS *

MissAnnElk
19-06-2008, 23:06
Are the sad chicken eggs even cheaper?



Not all Americans go to Wal-Mart! (I for one refuse to frequent the place.)

Also, it's not so easy here to go and get all your shopping for a one week. Unless you have a car or a pack-mule.

DA! Sad chicken eggs ARE cheaper. But the package says, in Russian, HAPPY CHICKEN EGGS. Which I think is a scream, because I always said that.

Then there are Omega-3 eggs, 6 in a package, for about the same price.

I prefer Target to Wal-Mart.

But I will say that what I see at Wal-Mart (on the few recent instances I have been there) are people buying decent food for less. Further, I saw that Wal-Mart is THE place to buy music these day (I confess to having purchased my downloads there), and musicians are now contracting with them directly, avoiding the "record" distributors. So it seems they are attempting to redeem themselves.

ghurka12
19-06-2008, 23:22
"LOL LOL you have just made a fool out of yourself

now you showed you know nothing, in fact UK has otrageous prices when comes to food and i was in london as recently as Aug 2007"

Ignorance is bliss is it not Sal.... your clairvoyance is not work well today.,... I was in the UK a month ago and visit 5 or 6 times a year... nice try though..

As to a ban...I thinkly ou will be before me...afterall I am not the one throwing the insults now am I???

Bels
19-06-2008, 23:32
"LOL LOL you have just made a fool out of yourself

now you showed you know nothing, in fact UK has otrageous prices when comes to food and i was in london as recently as Aug 2007"

Ignorance is bliss is it not Sal.... your clairvoyance is not work well today.,... I was in the UK a month ago and visit 5 or 6 times a year... nice try though..

As to a ban...I think you will be before me...afterall I am not the one throwing the insults now am I???


Read again, as I think he was talking about me :) And don't take it seriously,
But I'll give you credit where it's due, as you are talking to sal. "You can't be serious".

ghurka12
19-06-2008, 23:35
Bels, I think he was quoting me...perhaps not who cares.... in any regard he is completely out to lunch and I find it very amusing and somewhat sad that such an individual comments on things he does not know or is out of touch with... Thanks for the concern anyway...much appreciated...

Bels
19-06-2008, 23:43
Jeesus, that's lot! Well come to my neighbourhood and you can eat it everyday. Just like me :)It's cheaper then tomatos, and same as orange juice. The shop definitelly don't have the "crown jewels" department. Just normal, produkti shop.

But I thought Black caviar was banned. Is the Western region missing out on something? Because it appears this area is even dt of dearer than mostcow. And I can't understand why, when all they have as a link to the city is one lousy Rublievskie shosse "b" road that it is always heavy in traffic jams. Why this area is so expensive I will never know! Just because important leaders choose to live there? Now how's that for snobbery.

SalTheReturn
19-06-2008, 23:51
Well I don't live in the center so it's not a problem for me to go once a week for ten minutes by marsrutkas. Why is that a problem? All russians buy outside the city, and they are probably less payed then westerners. And not all of them have cars. It's just a matter of comfort. And will.

people do not migrate to live in the same conditions a standard russian live, people migrate to be like those russian who shop at sedmoy continent

migrating towards another country should imply the reaching of higher standards of life, not lower

Bels
19-06-2008, 23:59
Bels, I think he was quoting me...perhaps not who cares.... in any regard he is completely out to lunch and I find it very amusing and somewhat sad that such an individual comments on things he does not know or is out of touch with... Thanks for the concern anyway...much appreciated...

Never worry about Sal, as he's harmless :) There are worst monsters around, and you and others will have the support of me and other members when those problems arise.

Yes! we are all aware he is now out of touch with Moscow, but for some reason he loves it here, and I have the impression he would love to come back, but he cant'. Anway, I will recheck his thead to see if it was me or you.

SalTheReturn
20-06-2008, 00:02
dont really understand whats the point...are people trying to argue that food in London cost as much as in Moscow?

Probably if you shop at Sedmoy in Lubyanska yes, but not everyone is such a fool

Nobody has answered me yet: is a random supermarket in Moscow 2-3x more expensive than in Moscow?
pls do not take as examples supermarkets in Tverskaya/Lubianska/Novosloboskaya/etc...

ghurka12
20-06-2008, 00:03
people do not migrate to live in the same conditions a standard russian live, people migrate to be like those russian who shop at sedmoy continent

migrating towards another country should imply the reaching of higher standards of life, not lower

Does anybody understand this comment... quite frankly I don't. I wish my apartment was the same quality as my house in England and the same cost per month....personally I came for the women..LOL

SalTheReturn
20-06-2008, 00:06
Does anybody understand this comment... quite frankly I don't. I wish my apartment was the same quality as my house in England and the same cost per month....personally I came for the women..LOL

well if you are a sexpat, this might even deliver with an immediate unliftable ban.

DiploKawi
20-06-2008, 00:15
personally I came here for the money and the career, for the higher standard of living I would have stayed in Malta, where I used to go out everyday and enjoy sunshine all year round, living in my parents 4 bedroom villa.

However, probably sal does not know about this little fact of life despite his great knowledge, people want to live in their own houses so there are mortgages to pay. Since I hate to have a mortgage to pay for the rest of my life I'd rather sacrifice a little something now and gather the fruits later, but maybe its just me.

I was planning to come for the girls too, but my plan got sidetracked when I met someone willing to put up my snoring and got engaged. ;)

electrokitchen
20-06-2008, 00:22
people do not migrate to live in the same conditions a standard russian live, people migrate to be like those russian who shop at sedmoy continent

migrating towards another country should imply the reaching of higher standards of life, not lower
For me, migration isn't all about money. it can be because of good job (meaning interesting, creative, good colleagues etc), learning another language, culture, meeting new people or just if you need a change in life. Not everything is about money. For me at least. And I don't have the problem of living and behaving like the locals. If you're a snob, then you have a problem. And no, chanel is definitelly not my style. Even if I had that money, I'd never buy anything there simply because I don't like what they sell.

SalTheReturn
20-06-2008, 00:23
personally I came here for the money and the career, for the higher standard of living I would have stayed in Malta, where I used to go out everyday and enjoy sunshine all year round, living in my parents 4 bedroom villa.

However, probably sal does not know about this little fact of life despite his great knowledge, people want to live in their own houses so there are mortgages to pay. Since I hate to have a mortgage to pay for the rest of my life I'd rather sacrifice a little something now and gather the fruits later, but maybe its just me.

I was planning to come for the girls too, but my plan got sidetracked when I met someone willing to put up my snoring and got engaged. ;)

Dear mediterranean,

I get your point and I agree with you that "quality of life" has MAINLY to do with the things you listed. In fact Malta and Italy, despite the low salaries, enjoy still the HIGHEST QUALITY of life worldwide. We can hardly be beaten.

In this case I was just arguing that people migrate for money and not to ride a car for purchasing some food.

SalTheReturn
20-06-2008, 00:29
For me, migration isn't all about money. it can be because of good job (meaning interesting, creative, good colleagues etc), learning another language, culture, meeting new people or just if you need a change in life. Not everything is about money. For me at least. And I don't have the problem of living and behaving like the locals. If you're a snob, then you have a problem. And no, chanel is definitelly not my style. Even if I had that money, I'd never buy anything there simply because I don't like what they sell.

I also get your point, but you do not get mine.

I personally cant know the exact standard of life you were used when living in Serbia, but, as far as I know (been there in 2003, met people there, visited their houses) you might find easier to accustom to "russian standards" compared to Westerners.

It is not about being snob, it is about NOT forgetting that there is little sense in migrating and lowering our life standards.

ghurka12
20-06-2008, 00:29
SO Sal.......why did you migrate to Italy???? for the money or the standard of living???

SalTheReturn
20-06-2008, 00:30
SO Sal.......why did you migrate to Italy???? for the money or the standard of living???

I am italian myself

DiploKawi
20-06-2008, 00:35
Dear mediterranean,

I get your point and I agree with you that "quality of life" has MAINLY to do with the things you listed. In fact Malta and Italy, despite the low salaries, enjoy still the HIGHEST QUALITY of life worldwide. We can hardly be beaten.

In this case I was just arguing that people migrate for money and not to ride a car for purchasing some food.

So true, eh especially for civil servants in Malta, we get to work half days in summer, I'd be on the beach by three, obviously after having lunch:) I must be crazy coming here doing 10 hour days. Oh, yes, now I remember salaries are LOW!!!

I can't understand what is the problem of going for a thirty minute car ride to buy groceries. It is standard practice everywhere. Also a car is quite affordable here in Russia, (even more so if with diplomatic plates)

electrokitchen
20-06-2008, 00:39
I also get your point, but you do not get mine.

I personally cant know the exact standard of life you were used when living in Serbia, but, as far as I know (been there in 2003, met people there, visited their houses) you might find easier to accustom to "russian standards" compared to Westerners.

It is not about being snob, it is about NOT forgetting that there is little sense in migrating and lowering our life standards.

Actually the standard in Serbia for me was higher then here, but the job is much much better. Exciting. And since I spend most of my day working, I chose to come here. I don't really mind going once a week for two hours in Ashan. They are cheap and probably have more fresh food and better quality then anywhere in the center. I simply think it's plane stupid to spend your money on expensive food, when you can do a lot more interesting things with what you save.

Bels
20-06-2008, 01:12
Actually the standard in Serbia for me was higher then here, but the job is much much better. Exciting. And since I spend most of my day working, I chose to come here. I don't really mind going once a week for two hours in Ashan. They are cheap and probably have more fresh food and better quality then anywhere in the center. I simply think it's plane stupid to spend your money on expensive food, when you can do a lot more interesting things with what you save.

Can you save on less than 2,000 a month :) As that's my figure. And I have had great difficulty achieving that over the past four years. Now my wife tells me will need more!! Do I dare raise fees for students for Students, as they are already shocked!! Because believe me, that the shopping bill my wife is going out for , is increasing very fast!! And we need to save more to build a house on our plot of land for example.

So when we talk about that we survive as a family of four, of which we are, excluding our babooshka, of whom we have to support in many ways, we also have a need to save and invest for our future. As we may well all want to go back home to UK eventually.

We really do need to have some saving money as well as cover our minimal costs. And I would assume that those are the thoughts applied to all us expats.

Bels
20-06-2008, 01:18
Actually the standard in Serbia for me was higher then here, but the job is much much better. Exciting. And since I spend most of my day working, I chose to come here. I don't really mind going once a week for two hours in Ashan. They are cheap and probably have more fresh food and better quality then anywhere in the center. I simply think it's plane stupid to spend your money on expensive food, when you can do a lot more interesting things with what you save.

But haven't you discovered that you are now saving less and less. And I have read articles from stating that their is a world food crisis, and that those countries that suffer the most will be those who are more dependent on imports. And for crtain types of food, this might well be Russia.

DJ Biscuit
20-06-2008, 01:20
I didn't come here to raise my standard of living as Sal suggests most do, I came to broaden my horizons and to increase my life experiences but like Bels I am also in a situation now where I see after 13 years here, that I have to start thinking about the future and how the hell to pay for it! With the cost of living here as it is, the sort of salaries I am being offered give no opportunity for this, rather they cover rent and a meagre existence. However, this is of my own making and has nothing to do with my location as such.

Bels
20-06-2008, 01:29
And I didn't come here to seek my fortune either, as I simply fell in love by chance, with my now Russian wife.

As I told her in the past, I have travelled the world, and this would have been the last place on earth that I would have thought of coming to. But here I am :):wavey:

SalTheReturn
20-06-2008, 02:24
Bels, I am not very interested in your biography but if you are really feeling that bad migrate back to the UK. You have often argued there you would be making much more.

Elektroshock, it is stupid to travel 2 hours in a marshutka to buy food. This might be ok for a student, but not for a westerner...why the hell should i spend 2 hours of my time just to grab food? and i do not even want to imagine what means to carry the bag in a busy marshutska. try the online shops.

Dj Bis, what did you know about Russia before getting there? Were your plans to "extend horizons" relating to Russia initially?

DJ Biscuit
20-06-2008, 02:39
Good question Sal. I knew very little really about Russia back in 1995 when I came here. I wanted to go somewhere I hadn't been before and somewhere that was totally different from home. I suppose I knew or thought I knew what most people did back then who hadn't been here. I wanted a change and could have ended up in China, Paraguay, Qatar or some other place. It just happened this way - which is the way so many things happen, quite by chance.

electrokitchen
20-06-2008, 07:35
Bels, I am not very interested in your biography but if you are really feeling that bad migrate back to the UK. You have often argued there you would be making much more.

Elektroshock, it is stupid to travel 2 hours in a marshutka to buy food. This might be ok for a student, but not for a westerner...why the hell should i spend 2 hours of my time just to grab food? and i do not even want to imagine what means to carry the bag in a busy marshutska. try the online shops.

Dj Bis, what did you know about Russia before getting there? Were your plans to "extend horizons" relating to Russia initially?

It's not two hours in marsrutka, it's 10 minutes. Alltogether is two hours.

I spend two hours per week. You probably spend much more visiting shops in the nearby. And no, it's not a problem for me with marsrutkas. I love it. They are cheap and reliable. And it s not only food, you can buy everything for the house there and much more. I really love those big shops outside MKAD.
I mean, it s ok if you want to buy expensive food. If you have a lot of money. But if you don't, and still buy there then I don't see the point. Moscow has different prices. It's just not true that everything is everywhere expensive. it's up to you what are your priorities. If you want to save money, you go to ashan. If you don't, then buy in the center. I don't care really.

annasophia
20-06-2008, 11:23
I buy 80% of our food at the rynok. Occasional forays to the Ramstore. Food at the rynok is vastly cheaper than any of the supermarkets and rynoks have far superior produce. Russian *supermarkets* just plain suck. The rynok is so much more enjoyable as well, there are little hole-in-the-wall cafes where you can snack and have a beer and a smoke, then go back to your shopping.

I never shop at Seventh Continent or Azbuka Vkusa or Perekstrok, unless I'm nearby and need a loaf of bread. Those stores are extortional. Ridiculous. I have often wondered how they even manage to stay in business.

I buy clothes during the 2 times of year they go on sale in Moscow: after New Year and in July, everything is on clearance. I have a twice yearly shopping spree. Cute jeans 479-999 rubles, utterly competative with western prices. Clearance at Oggi is breathtaking--skirt 199 rubles, top 199 rubles. Even at regular price Oggi is totally affordable. I bought a $100 jacket at Orange in Okhotny Ryad for 499 rubles, on sale. Lingerie at Etam originally 3000 rubles, I paid 349. For clothes Sachi has great markdowns year round. Come on, there are plenty of good deals in Moscow if you get out and hit the pavement.

How about movies/CD's/DVD's on the street for 100-150 rubles? You can't touch that in the west. Sheep lined gloves off the street for 200 rubles? A top notch 12 piece classical string ensemble in the perehod for free??

Moscow CAN BE exceedingly expensive. If you have drinks with friends every evening at Scandanavia and shop on the Novy Arbat and pay $30,000 a year to send your kids to some overrated overbuilt private school.

Housing is the one caveat. There is no way to circumvent the high cost of decent housing in Moscow. Everything else can be dealt with.

SalTheReturn
20-06-2008, 11:46
I buy 80% of our food at the rynok. Occasional forays to the Ramstore. Food at the rynok is vastly cheaper than any of the supermarkets and rynoks have far superior produce. Russian *supermarkets* just plain suck. The rynok is so much more enjoyable as well, there are little hole-in-the-wall cafes where you can snack and have a beer and a smoke, then go back to your shopping.

I never shop at Seventh Continent or Azbuka Vkusa or Perekstrok, unless I'm nearby and need a loaf of bread. Those stores are extortional. Ridiculous. I have often wondered how they even manage to stay in business.

I buy clothes during the 2 times of year they go on sale in Moscow: after New Year and in July, everything is on clearance. I have a twice yearly shopping spree. Cute jeans 479-999 rubles, utterly competative with western prices. Clearance at Oggi is breathtaking--skirt 199 rubles, top 199 rubles. Even at regular price Oggi is totally affordable. I bought a $100 jacket at Orange in Okhotny Ryad for 499 rubles, on sale. Lingerie at Etam originally 3000 rubles, I paid 349. For clothes Sachi has great markdowns year round. Come on, there are plenty of good deals in Moscow if you get out and hit the pavement.

How about movies/CD's/DVD's on the street for 100-150 rubles? You can't touch that in the west. Sheep lined gloves off the street for 200 rubles? A top notch 12 piece classical string ensemble in the perehod for free??

Moscow CAN BE exceedingly expensive. If you have drinks with friends every evening at Scandanavia and shop on the Novy Arbat and pay $30,000 a year to send your kids to some overrated overbuilt private school.

Housing is the one caveat. There is no way to circumvent the high cost of decent housing in Moscow. Everything else can be dealt with.

I perfectly agree with you, housing it is the only thing you cannot avoid. For all the rest there is a solution and such solution does not imply to live like a bum.

If people tell that 100K is not enough means they were either used to elitny life in their home countries or they just get ripped off constantly.

It is a shock to me (and I am to blame here as well) the number of things which become "essential" when abroad and which I consider "superflous" when in my home country.

In Moscow I was eating out 2/3 times a week, going out till the wee hrs quite often, etc... all things in Florence I almost never do.

boscoe
20-06-2008, 12:14
The original question was "What income family of 4 needs to live well in Moscow"

Now I'm sure to get shot down but I don't consider having to trapse all over Moscow and beyond to buy food "living well" especially in the winter (or the traffic).

I've not lived in the US but I'd say compared to the UK I need about 50% more here to have a comparable standard of living to living in London. The 13% tax rate here does help with this but doesn't go all the way.

The original poster has kids, I don't, but I'm told they grow quite fast so buying clothes every five minutes will get VERY expensive here add to that rent for a 'comparable' place to what you are used to and then schooling soon and I'd say, no way would $100,000 allow you to live well here for a family of 4....

Bels
20-06-2008, 12:15
Bels, I am not very interested in your biography but if you are really feeling that bad migrate back to the UK. You have often argued there you would be making much more.

What do you mean? I love living in the most expensive city, with the highest inflation rate in the world. However you are right about one thing, as I do plan to return to the UK with my Russian famiy eventually.

boscoe
20-06-2008, 12:17
In Moscow I was eating out 2/3 times a week, going out till the wee hrs quite often, etc... all things in Florence I almost never do.


Call me 'elitny' if you like Sal but I don't consider McDonald's 'eating out'...

You were a young single male student when you were here - When I was a student I lived well on buttons as well, this is a family with young kids... get real!

Bels
20-06-2008, 12:22
Spot on Boscoe, as that was what I was going to say, and you beat me to it.

boscoe
20-06-2008, 12:24
On food price increases...

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/1009/42/368402.htm

11% increase this year!!!

annasophia
20-06-2008, 12:27
I have kids. Didn't realize the mods wanted an actual dollar value put up in order to contribute to the thread. My bad.

The point is that outside of unavoidable high cost of housing in Moscow, other costs can be controlled by behavior and expectations and savvy shopping, just like in the west.

Or have you never seen a grocery ad or after-Christmas ad in the UK?! :10220:

Bels
20-06-2008, 12:40
I have kids. Didn't realize the mods wanted an actual dollar value put up in order to contribute to the thread. My bad.

The point is that outside of unavoidable high cost of housing in Moscow, other costs can be controlled by behavior and expectations and savvy shopping, just like in the west.

Or have you never seen a grocery ad or after-Christmas ad in the UK?! :10220:

You cannot avoid a massive inflation rate that's higher than anywhere in Europe, unless you have an income that keeps pace with this inflation. There is now also a world food shortage, and those countries who are dependant on food imports will be affected the most.

I have no doubt that a foreign family of four here will need a much higher income than they had in their own country, and that should also include a good package such as housing, education, and health cover.

boscoe
20-06-2008, 12:48
I have kids. Didn't realize the mods wanted an actual dollar value put up in order to contribute to the thread. My bad.


What? I was just answering the original question (my bad)...

Will $100K a year income be enough for family of 4 (2 children under age of 3) in Moscow? many thanks for your insights


Savvy shopping for me in the UK was the five minute drive to my local Tesco twice a week not the 2 hour (if the traffic is OK) round trip to Auchan...

PS - and please, if you are going to insult me, insult my real title - I'm an admin not a mod ;)

Gypsy
20-06-2008, 12:53
What? I was just answering the original question (my bad)...

Savvy shopping for me in the UK was the five minute drive to my local Tesco twice a week not the 2 hour (if the traffic is OK) round trip to Auchan...

Because your profession has made you value your time.

boscoe
20-06-2008, 12:58
Because your profession has made you value your time.
Very true and I agree it's all relative, however the fact remains that there are no real equivalents to the supermarket chains of Azbuka Fecusna and Stockmans in the UK. OK Sainsbury's may be more expensive than Tesco but both were in easy reach and I had the choice without having to plan a day trip to the supermarket.

boscoe
20-06-2008, 13:07
I'm not sure I can think of anything worse than a trip in winter from the center my metro and minibus to Auchan with two kids under three, shopping in Auchan (a nightmare in it's self without kids) and then reversing the journey with bags and bags of heavy shopping... take a taxi you say... OK then you can add $50 or more on to your shopping bill...

Strider
20-06-2008, 13:25
I don't think that people go to Auchan from the center of the city by buses...

most of them live in the nearby districts, so they might not even have to use metro to get there

but getting to Auchan from the center of the city by public transport... that's something terrible :) you need to have a car then, otherwise low prices in Auchan won't cover the cost of getting there

and as already mentioned, Utkonos is good for saving money and time if you don't have a car

pullar
20-06-2008, 13:31
Haven't time to read through all this, so someone's probably said it already. Sal was buying his groceries here about 18 months ago, and prices have gone up enormously since then.

boscoe
20-06-2008, 13:35
I don't think that people go to Auchan from the center of the city by buses...

most of them live in the nearby districts, so they might not even have to use metro to get there

but getting to Auchan from the center of the city by public transport... that's something terrible :) you need to have a car then, otherwise low prices in Auchan won't cover the cost of getting there

and as already mentioned, Utkonos is good for saving money and time if you don't have a car
Agree but difficult if you don't read Russian :(

zaiac
20-06-2008, 14:15
Sal...I have never sucked a salary....Does it taste nice???

By the way, even in Kopeika it is still much more expensive than the UK. Cat food (whiskas) for example is 64 roubles.... cost far less in the UK... all commodities are more expensive even in the cheap produktis.

Oh and by the way, I shop in the Renuks (markets) often and have done so for the last 18+ years. The quality is often better than the supermarkets. The cost is still high though.

By the way, do you know a good Italian Restaurant in Moscow...i have not found one.

And sine you no longer live in Russia, perhaps you could enlighten me as to whether you are an emigre Russian or a true Italian. As a true Italian surely you would invite me to your apartment when next in Moscow for a wonderful home cooked Italian meal....I am just misguided??? probably...


C'on..... you probably go shopping in Rublevka or something like that! Prices are much cheaper then in UK... What about apartments, yes the price is pretty high, but you still could find a proper one for 2000-2500$/month. And it will be very close to centre 2 rooms and very clean and nice inside. Ask somebody Russian from your office to find a place, usually real estate agents trying to make some extra from expats. Good luck!

ghurka12
20-06-2008, 14:23
"C'on..... you probably go shopping in Rublevka or something like that! Prices are much cheaper then in UK... What about apartments, yes the price is pretty high, but you still could find a proper one for 2000-2500$/month. And it will be very close to centre 2 rooms and very clean and nice inside. Ask somebody Russian from your office to find a place, usually real estate agents trying to make some extra from expats. Good luck!"

I will have you know Zaiac I do not shop or live or frequent Rubelovka....and good luck to trying to find a two room apartment that can accomodate a foreign family of husband, wife and two kids!!!!

I have lived here 18 years and I know where to shop. It is still considerably more expensive than Tescos or Summerfields and especially so when compared to Iceland and Lidl!!! I still maintain that a standard shop is going to cost you double when all items are taken into account.

Inflation is very high here whereas in the UK it is low. It does upset me though that items that are made here cost more here than in the UK especially things like cat food and yoghurt and milk and butter, etc., etc.,

By the way, when I got my last apartment.....guess what......yes you've got it........I used a Russian agent!!!! AS real estate agents are all over the world, they are still all thieves!!!

Bels
20-06-2008, 14:40
C'on..... you probably go shopping in Rublevka or something like that! Prices are much cheaper then in UK... What about apartments, yes the price is pretty high, but you still could find a proper one for 2000-2500$/month. And it will be very close to centre 2 rooms and very clean and nice inside. Ask somebody Russian from your office to find a place, usually real estate agents trying to make some extra from expats. Good luck!

Is Rublevo or Rublienskie shosse more expensive to live, compared to those who live close to central Moscow?

Also there are a few Peryetrostic supermarkets along this Rubevo road; is it more expensive to shop there compared to Ashans for example?

In regards to landlords. How many landlords are prepared to take the trouble register expats who have business visas? And charge a cheap rent, rather than simply find a resident Russian.

SalTheReturn
20-06-2008, 14:44
Call me 'elitny' if you like Sal but I don't consider McDonald's 'eating out'...

You were a young single male student when you were here - When I was a student I lived well on buttons as well, this is a family with young kids... get real!

Boscoe, the story of Mac is false and fake, I was NOT a student and actually never worked my back off as in Moscow. The max I worked in italy was 8hrs a day with an hour lunch break. Moscow required long working hours and lots of commuting, this is why I had to leave.

Anyway I am very interested in you PROVING how the same life in London costs 50% less than in Moscow.

Where were you living in London? What area/sort of accomodation/etc...?

I do not consider commuting in a marshutka life, I agree with you. But the point is that people lied and argued that: food in Moscow is 2-3xxx more expensive in the West. This is misleading and will deteriorate the quality of the site.

zaiac
20-06-2008, 14:45
"C'on..... you probably go shopping in Rublevka or something like that! Prices are much cheaper then in UK... What about apartments, yes the price is pretty high, but you still could find a proper one for 2000-2500$/month. And it will be very close to centre 2 rooms and very clean and nice inside. Ask somebody Russian from your office to find a place, usually real estate agents trying to make some extra from expats. Good luck!"

I will have you know Zaiac I do not shop or live or frequent Rubelovka....and good luck to trying to find a two room apartment that can accomodate a foreign family of husband, wife and two kids!!!!

I have lived here 18 years and I know where to shop. It is still considerably more expensive than Tescos or Summerfields and especially so when compared to Iceland and Lidl!!! I still maintain that a standard shop is going to cost you double when all items are taken into account.

Inflation is very high here whereas in the UK it is low. It does upset me though that items that are made here cost more here than in the UK especially things like cat food and yoghurt and milk and butter, etc., etc.,

By the way, when I got my last apartment.....guess what......yes you've got it........I used a Russian agent!!!! AS real estate agents are all over the world, they are still all thieves!!!

2 rooms apartment approximately 60sq m. near Barrikadnaia costs 55000rubls. What about clothing - yes it's very high for it's quality but food - I didn't notice that it was very expensive. I think that 100k$ would be enough to live pretty good life.

SalTheReturn
20-06-2008, 14:51
Very true and I agree it's all relative, however the fact remains that there are no real equivalents to the supermarket chains of Azbuka Fecusna and Stockmans in the UK. OK Sainsbury's may be more expensive than Tesco but both were in easy reach and I had the choice without having to plan a day trip to the supermarket.

no middle-class european (this is what i am) plan a 2hrs trip to shop but you are lying when arguing that your life in London require 50% less than in Moscow

Crazy housing costs cannot be avoided in Moscow, all the rest is possible including, like TT recently argued, having a nice lunch in Moscow for 20bucks.

Tesco, Sainsburys, Iceland, etc...I remember them very well: none of them had cheap food.

Boscoe have you ever tried getting yourself a lunch box (ready food to choose) from Tesco?

Bels
20-06-2008, 15:17
Which Tesco or Sainsburys did you go to Sal? The little shops in a London High street. The larger ones were cheaper, with more choice and higher quality than what you would ever expect in Moscow. And are you reading any Russian news at the moment? Because it might help you to a better idea of what it's like living here now.

journeyman
20-06-2008, 15:23
with a 4 room (what we have now), no car, no translation help and no travel, I think 100k is enough.


However, if a rough rule of thumb is minimum after-tax income of 3x your housing, even if you DO find a 3000/month 4 room, that puts you at 108k AFTER TAXES.

2500-3000 apartments can be found, but they are not ploentyful. More than likely 3500-4000 is more reasonable, and 3x of that puts you at 144k a year.

Living here also requires travel, and margin for emergencies.

Be careful!

MissAnnElk
20-06-2008, 15:27
I'm not sure I can think of anything worse than a trip in winter from the center my metro and minibus to Auchan with two kids under three, shopping in Auchan (a nightmare in it's self without kids) and then reversing the journey with bags and bags of heavy shopping... take a taxi you say... OK then you can add $50 or more on to your shopping bill...

:11629::11629::11629::11629::11629:

I second that! Even if the kids are under ten. And the taxi ride eats up what you saved.

Once, a very kind friend took me to Auchan on a Tuesday. Actually, we went to Tvoi Dom first. We left the center at 9:00 a.m. and returned at 3:00 p.m.! Of those six hours, we probably spent 90 minutes in the stores. We did not stop for lunch. It was just driving.

And Auchan was a ZOO! I cannot IMAGINE what it would be like on a Saturday based on what I saw on a Tuesday afternoon. I no longer fear hell.

Bels
20-06-2008, 15:47
What re all these K's , and numbers. Are we talking about $$$, s, Euros or roubles? And are we talking monthly, weekly, or annual?

boscoe
20-06-2008, 16:05
Sal, maths not your best subject or were you just absent the day they did percentages at school...

I said that you'd need 50% more in Moscow than London, that does not equate to needing half as much to live in London than Moscow (if you need me to explain further I'm sorry but I'm going to have to charge you an hourly rate as it might take a while) but anyway...

I live in the center my nearest supermarkets are Azbuka fecusna (5 minutes) or Sedmoy Kontinent (15 minutes by car with no traffic) AF is an expensive market (I actually paid 50 rubs for a potato there the other day!!!!) but SC is what I think most would judge as 'reasonable'...

To get to Auchan will take me (by car, if I'm lucky, on a Sunday morning in the summer when it's not raining) about 40 minutes there and 40 minutes back...

I can't believe I'm doing this but anyway... A shopping bag comparison. I've taken the cheapest prices from both websites for each item and used only things that can be compared like for like. I've not chosen things that are WAY more overpriced here like wine, coffee etc. Sedmoy Continent is no where near as good quality wise to Tesco but we'll over look that...

Tesco - Kelloggs Cornflakes 375g 63 rub
Sc - Kelloggs Cornflakes 375g 96 rub

Tesco - Fresh milk 1lr - 30 rub
SC - Fresh milk 1lr - 65 rub

Tesco - Oranges 1kg 34 rub
SC- Oranges 1kg 114 rub

Tesco - Heinz Tomato Ketchup Bottle 342g 25 rub
SC - Heinz Tomato Ketchup Bottle 342g 45 rub

Tesco - Chicken thighs 1kg 125 rub
SC - Chicken thighs 1kg 156 rub

Tesco - Potatoes red 1kg 63 rub
SC - Potatoes red 1kg 159 rub

so my small bag of shopping from SC will cost 635 rubles the same bag from Tesco will cost 340 almost HALF!!!

Now Sal you have the evidence you asked for so PLEASE be quiet!

boscoe
20-06-2008, 16:13
Actually doing that little excersise has shocked the hell out of me!!!

I take it back - you need DOUBLE to live here!

RRM
20-06-2008, 16:14
What about the low income taxes ? That surely has to help.

boscoe
20-06-2008, 16:20
What about the low income taxes ? That surely has to help.
I mentioned that earlier... it does but I think you see the real benefit of that when you are earning way more than $100,000...

boscoe
20-06-2008, 16:26
I mentioned that earlier... it does but I think you see the real benefit of that when you are earning way more than $100,000...
There are other things to take into account. I'm going to France next week for a short break, the flight cost me $1000, from London on Ryan Air it would have been $100...

(OK I know many wouldn't take this into account but I do because it's about quality of life)

SalTheReturn
20-06-2008, 18:09
Which Tesco or Sainsburys did you go to Sal? The little shops in a London High street. The larger ones were cheaper, with more choice and higher quality than what you would ever expect in Moscow. And are you reading any Russian news at the moment? Because it might help you to a better idea of what it's like living here now.

LOL LOL LOL

were not you Bels would be surprised but since you are Bels I just thank you for proving others and me right

if you shop at Tverskaya/Lubianska/etc... of course you get expensive grocery bill, but if you go to other supermarkets outside the city center you save up lots of cash. This is true in London, Moscow, Milan, etc...

SalTheReturn
20-06-2008, 18:12
:11629::11629::11629::11629::11629:

I second that! Even if the kids are under ten. And the taxi ride eats up what you saved.

Once, a very kind friend took me to Auchan on a Tuesday. Actually, we went to Tvoi Dom first. We left the center at 9:00 a.m. and returned at 3:00 p.m.! Of those six hours, we probably spent 90 minutes in the stores. We did not stop for lunch. It was just driving.

And Auchan was a ZOO! I cannot IMAGINE what it would be like on a Saturday based on what I saw on a Tuesday afternoon. I no longer fear hell.

learn some russian, drive a bloody car, hail a taxi on the street, make your kids responsible, etc...

now people pretend to tell me that it is normal to have kids chaffeured around?:nut:

SalTheReturn
20-06-2008, 18:16
Sal, maths not your best subject or were you just absent the day they did percentages at school...

I said that you'd need 50% more in Moscow than London, that does not equate to needing half as much to live in London than Moscow (if you need me to explain further I'm sorry but I'm going to have to charge you an hourly rate as it might take a while) but anyway...

I live in the center my nearest supermarkets are Azbuka fecusna (5 minutes) or Sedmoy Kontinent (15 minutes by car with no traffic) AF is an expensive market (I actually paid 50 rubs for a potato there the other day!!!!) but SC is what I think most would judge as 'reasonable'...

To get to Auchan will take me (by car, if I'm lucky, on a Sunday morning in the summer when it's not raining) about 40 minutes there and 40 minutes back...

I can't believe I'm doing this but anyway... A shopping bag comparison. I've taken the cheapest prices from both websites for each item and used only things that can be compared like for like. I've not chosen things that are WAY more overpriced here like wine, coffee etc. Sedmoy Continent is no where near as good quality wise to Tesco but we'll over look that...

Tesco - Kelloggs Cornflakes 375g 63 rub
Sc - Kelloggs Cornflakes 375g 96 rub

Tesco - Fresh milk 1lr - 30 rub
SC - Fresh milk 1lr - 65 rub

Tesco - Oranges 1kg 34 rub
SC- Oranges 1kg 114 rub

Tesco - Heinz Tomato Ketchup Bottle 342g 25 rub
SC - Heinz Tomato Ketchup Bottle 342g 45 rub

Tesco - Chicken thighs 1kg 125 rub
SC - Chicken thighs 1kg 156 rub

Tesco - Potatoes red 1kg 63 rub
SC - Potatoes red 1kg 159 rub

so my small bag of shopping from SC will cost 635 rubles the same bag from Tesco will cost 340 almost HALF!!!

Now Sal you have the evidence you asked for so PLEASE be quiet!

biased list and you are now stimulating me to fly to london through ryanair and get the straight figures

1)how can you compare Kellogs with Tesco? the first is a brand, the second a brand produced by the supermarket chain you shop in

2)where is salami, meat, fish, ready food, and all other essential food items? taking fruit it is too easy...

SalTheReturn
20-06-2008, 18:18
and as far as i understand we are just not talking about food

where is rent, transports (private and public), fuel, housing costs?

boscoe
20-06-2008, 18:27
learn some russian, drive a bloody car, hail a taxi on the street, make your kids responsible, etc...

now people pretend to tell me that it is normal to have kids chaffeured around?:nut:
Exactly how many suns are their on the planet you live on?

xSnoofovich
20-06-2008, 18:29
Sal, maths not your best subject or were you just absent the day they did percentages at school...

I said that you'd need 50% more in Moscow than London, that does not equate to needing half as much to live in London than Moscow (if you need me to explain further I'm sorry but I'm going to have to charge you an hourly rate as it might take a while) but anyway...

I live in the center my nearest supermarkets are Azbuka fecusna (5 minutes) or Sedmoy Kontinent (15 minutes by car with no traffic) AF is an expensive market (I actually paid 50 rubs for a potato there the other day!!!!) but SC is what I think most would judge as 'reasonable'...

To get to Auchan will take me (by car, if I'm lucky, on a Sunday morning in the summer when it's not raining) about 40 minutes there and 40 minutes back...

I can't believe I'm doing this but anyway... A shopping bag comparison. I've taken the cheapest prices from both websites for each item and used only things that can be compared like for like. I've not chosen things that are WAY more overpriced here like wine, coffee etc. Sedmoy Continent is no where near as good quality wise to Tesco but we'll over look that...

Tesco - Kelloggs Cornflakes 375g 63 rub
Sc - Kelloggs Cornflakes 375g 96 rub

Tesco - Fresh milk 1lr - 30 rub
SC - Fresh milk 1lr - 65 rub

Tesco - Oranges 1kg 34 rub
SC- Oranges 1kg 114 rub

Tesco - Heinz Tomato Ketchup Bottle 342g 25 rub
SC - Heinz Tomato Ketchup Bottle 342g 45 rub

Tesco - Chicken thighs 1kg 125 rub
SC - Chicken thighs 1kg 156 rub

Tesco - Potatoes red 1kg 63 rub
SC - Potatoes red 1kg 159 rub

so my small bag of shopping from SC will cost 635 rubles the same bag from Tesco will cost 340 almost HALF!!!

Now Sal you have the evidence you asked for so PLEASE be quiet!

Ok, but what if I do the same list except from Utkanos? I am guessing it will be way cheaper, as I usually pay around

15-20 ru for a kilogram of red potatoes, maybe more, depending on the season.
fresh milk is around 20 ru for 1.5% and 26 ru for 3.2%.
I buy 1 kilo of filet chicken for about 150 ru.
Oranges are anywhere from 25-60 ru per kilo.

I don't usually the other two things mentioned, so I have no idea.

My 2cents.

boscoe
20-06-2008, 18:33
biased list and you are now stimulating me to fly to london through ryanair and get the straight figures

1)how can you compare Kellogs with Tesco? the first is a brand, the second a brand produced by the supermarket chain you shop in

2)where is salami, meat, fish, ready food, and all other essential food items? taking fruit it is too easy...

Sal, think before you type... Kellogs is Kellogs no matter where you buy it!

Please be my guest add in all the things you want and then post the prices

Online Grocery Shopping & Delivery Service - Tesco.com (http://www.tesco.com/)
7cont (http://dostavka.7cont.ru/search/)

xSnoofovich
20-06-2008, 18:35
Kellogs is kellogs no matter where you buy it!



That is true. I just haven't bought it since I came to Russia. I guess I got out of the eating cold ceral habit, and picked up some others ;)

boscoe
20-06-2008, 18:36
possibly true, but it's not around the corner from me...

Prices in Lidle and Netto would also be a lot cheaper in the UK than from Tesco's...

I could also grow my spuds in the bathtub for much cheaper... but I don't

my 12 cents

boscoe
20-06-2008, 18:43
15-20 ru for a kilogram of red potatoes



No you don't you pay 79rubls per kg... Just checked their site

boscoe
20-06-2008, 18:58
Ok, but what if I do the same list except from Utkanos? I am guessing it will be way cheaper, as I usually pay around

15-20 ru for a kilogram of red potatoes, maybe more, depending on the season.
fresh milk is around 20 ru for 1.5% and 26 ru for 3.2%.
I buy 1 kilo of filet chicken for about 150 ru.
Oranges are anywhere from 25-60 ru per kilo.

I don't usually the other two things mentioned, so I have no idea.

My 2cents.
As to chicken thighs you pay 161 rubls (more for fillets)

Actually just done a tot up and even at your store you still pay about 46% more for a similar list, they don't even sell Kelloggs corn flakes and many of the well known world wide brands (sorry if it ain't Heinz, it ain't going on my fries)

Can I hear the sound of a fat lady singing?

MissAnnElk
20-06-2008, 19:40
Food Prices Growing Faster Than Europe's

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/1009/42/368402.htm

MissAnnElk
20-06-2008, 19:42
learn some russian, drive a bloody car, hail a taxi on the street, make your kids responsible, etc...

now people pretend to tell me that it is normal to have kids chaffeured around?:nut:

Buy me a car. Pay for my insurance and my babysitter.

Like I'm going to get a gypsy cab in the center to schlepp me out to the Mega Mall and wait while I shop. What are you smoking?

xSnoofovich
20-06-2008, 20:05
As to chicken thighs you pay 161 rubls (more for fillets)

Actually just done a tot up and even at your store you still pay about 46% more for a similar list, they don't even sell Kelloggs corn flakes and many of the well known world wide brands (sorry if it ain't Heinz, it ain't going on my fries)

Can I hear the sound of a fat lady singing?


I don't actually see red potatoes for sale now.
and I don't see the Kellogs.

milk - 1 liter (in a bag) 2.5% = 23.54 ru ( 2,5% 1 / (http://utkanos.ru/item/1004001001/1033375/) )
milk - 1 liter (in a carton) 3.2% = 25.34 ru ( 3,2% 1 (http://utkanos.ru/item/1004001001/1108216/) )
oranges 1 kg = 39.9 ru ( 0,9-1,3 (http://utkanos.ru/item/1010001004/7581/) )
chicken filet 1 kg = 164 ru ( 1 (http://utkanos.ru/item/1009002006/1049012/) )
chicken thighs = 94.38 ru per kg ( | (http://utkanos.ru/cat/1009002002/) )
heinz ketchup 342 grams = 35.99 ru ( 342 (http://utkanos.ru/item/1001011002/1020836/))


= 193.81 RU at Utkanos
and Tesco was 214 RU ( minus the 2 items not on the list)

So, it seems that both stores have similar prices.

SalTheReturn
20-06-2008, 20:11
Buy me a car. Pay for my insurance and my babysitter.

Like I'm going to get a gypsy cab in the center to schlepp me out to the Mega Mall and wait while I shop. What are you smoking?

I smoke nothing my dear

is it normal to have the mum and the kids (kids not babies I guess) chaffeured around town?

i will tell you can get there metro, shop, and then hail a gypsy cab back home.

even teachers can afford that, so sure Mr.Elk can as well

SalTheReturn
20-06-2008, 20:12
Buy me a car. Pay for my insurance and my babysitter.

Like I'm going to get a gypsy cab in the center to schlepp me out to the Mega Mall and wait while I shop. What are you smoking?

seems like you would really like a private chaffeur...what are YOU smoking?

MissAnnElk
20-06-2008, 20:39
seems like you would really like a private chaffeur...what are YOU smoking?

I have no interest in a driver. Where did you get that idea? I'd rather spend that money on vacations.

MissAnnElk
20-06-2008, 20:43
I smoke nothing my dear

is it normal to have the mum and the kids (kids not babies I guess) chaffeured around town?

i will tell you can get there metro, shop, and then hail a gypsy cab back home.

even teachers can afford that, so sure Mr.Elk can as well

As I explained before, I was unable to do this (get there metro, shop, and then hail a gypsy cab back home) once when a friend drove me because I could not get it done in time (I must be at the school at 2:15). It took us 6 hours in the middle of the day (avoiding rush hours and heading the opposite direction of the majority of the traffic both directions). I have other friends who have discussed doing this during the day, but who also fear they cannot get back to school to pick up their kids (which I do on foot) in time.

I know others, who have their own cars, who go first thing every Saturday morning. I also have friends whose husbands have jobs in or near the Mega Malls, and the husbands then do the grocery shopping since they are out there every day.

I guess drivers are common . . . I see them at the school every day picking up kids. But a driver would cost me about $12,000 year (it's not included in our benefits), and then I'd miss out on the social aspect of seeing the mothers who do walk over to meet their kids. Gives me a chance to see the teachers too, from time to time.

journeyman
20-06-2008, 21:22
What re all these K's , and numbers. Are we talking about $$$, s, Euros or roubles? And are we talking monthly, weekly, or annual?

100k = 100,000 USD
144k = 144,000 USD
2500 - 3000 = 2500 USD per month - 3000 USD per month


Yeah, there are a lot of different ways it could be expressed

Niklas
20-06-2008, 21:42
If the question is whether 100k is enough to have a good life in Moscow, the answer is of course yes. It is the most expensive city in the world (according to CNN) but don't trust the real horror stories. I do my shopping in Jelisevski, Sedmont and Stockmanns, so I don't go for the cheap stuff, but I still find it acceptable. Imported products, especially things like wine and cheese, are expensive, but other things aren't that outrageous.

Eating out, that's expensive!!!!

But obviously, it is difficult to give some good advice, as it depends on your preferred lifestyle, what you are used to and how local you want to go. If you only want your favourite brands from home, they might be expensive. If you accept local brands (which I tend to do in most cases) Moscow isn't that bad.

DJ Biscuit
20-06-2008, 21:55
That's very true and is shown here by the different opinions, no one can agree as to cost of living.

One or two small examples. I love milk, but I cannot abide Russian milk, it's just a matter of taste. If I want something that tastes similar to what I call milk, how it is back home in England I have to buy that Finnish stuff - Valio, it's three times the price of local milk and has limited availability, Sedmoi, Azbuka etc.

If I want a French stick that tastes like a French stick it's going to cost me the equivalent of almost three pounds. If I 'go local' and get normal bread it's the equivalent of less than 40 pence.

It's all a matter of what you want.

ghurka12
20-06-2008, 22:06
2 rooms apartment approximately 60sq m. near Barrikadnaia costs 55000rubls.

Ziaic you just don't get it do you.....A western family with two children would not want to rent a two room apartment!!! they probably came from a three bedroom house plus dining room plus living room with possibly two bathrooms and a downstairs toilet.... How on earth could you expect them to live in Moscow in a 2 room apartment!!!!!!!!!!!!!

boscoe
20-06-2008, 22:16
I don't actually see red potatoes for sale now.
and I don't see the Kellogs.

milk - 1 liter (in a bag) 2.5% = 23.54 ru ( 2,5% 1 / (http://utkanos.ru/item/1004001001/1033375/) )
milk - 1 liter (in a carton) 3.2% = 25.34 ru ( 3,2% 1 (http://utkanos.ru/item/1004001001/1108216/) )
oranges 1 kg = 39.9 ru ( 0,9-1,3 (http://utkanos.ru/item/1010001004/7581/) )
chicken filet 1 kg = 164 ru ( 1 (http://utkanos.ru/item/1009002006/1049012/) )
chicken thighs = 94.38 ru per kg ( | (http://utkanos.ru/cat/1009002002/) )
heinz ketchup 342 grams = 35.99 ru ( 342 (http://utkanos.ru/item/1001011002/1020836/))


= 193.81 RU at Utkanos
and Tesco was 214 RU ( minus the 2 items not on the list)

So, it seems that both stores have similar prices.
well done :) I didn't find heinz!

Tesco in the UK is a 'nice' supermarket... that's why I used 7th Continent as a comparison (although Tesco's quality is WAY better)

The shop you are suggesting is akin to lidle or netto in the UK - can't be bothered at the moment but I'm certain the prices in these supermarkets are 30-40% cheaper than Tesco's

Also the point remains that this is way out of town, not around the corner I can't find all I want there...

MissAnnElk
20-06-2008, 22:17
Ziaic you just don't get it do you.....A western family with two children would not want to rent a two room apartment!!! they probably came from a three bedroom house plus dining room plus living room with possibly two bathrooms and a downstairs toilet.... How on earth could you expect them to live in Moscow in a 2 room apartment!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We're 2 adults and 2 children, and it's "cozy" but perfectly fine at 110m2. I can't imagine 60m2.

My Sedmoy is less than 200 meters from my door. That convenience is worth something. But, yes, there are items I don't buy there or don't buy at all . . .

ghurka12
20-06-2008, 22:24
Niklas...you are out to lunch, or have just lost the plot!!! We are talking about a guy with a wife and two kids!!! Any idiot who lives on his own could have a greta time on $100k, the family we are talking about could not.

DJ Biscuit
20-06-2008, 22:25
Trouble I find is if I go to Azbuka Vkusa to buy milk and a French stick I end up buying Corn Flakes for the milk and French ham for the bread and end up spending more than my old folk do for a weekly shop in Tesco's!

DJ Biscuit
20-06-2008, 22:27
Any idiot who lives on his own could have a great time on $100k.

And just for the sake of a scientific experiment I am prepared to be that idiot, I am amply qualified.

Bels
20-06-2008, 22:29
Ziaic you just don't get it do you.....A western family with two children would not want to rent a two room apartment!!! they probably came from a three bedroom house plus dining room plus living room with possibly two bathrooms and a downstairs toilet.... How on earth could you expect them to live in Moscow in a 2 room apartment!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A very good point, as we are talking about a family of four who are coming to live and work in Moscow.

We could also be talking about children who don't speak Russian, so what about their education? There's no doubt that when a family has to uproot themselves from their own country and home to Moscow, they must have received very good income incentives to do so, otherwise they wouldn't bother.

How, or why would a young family from either The UK or USA for example want to uproot themselves to live in Moscow without some good financial incentives? And live more comfortably than where their original home was.

ghurka12
20-06-2008, 22:30
Boscoe, the story of Mac is false and fake, I was NOT a student and actually never worked my back off as in Moscow. The max I worked in italy was 8hrs a day with an hour lunch break. Moscow required long working hours and lots of commuting, this is why I had to leave.


so Sal you are a prize poodle pillock of the first order.... YOU COULD NOT HANDLE MOSCOW AND SO YOU LEFT!!!!!!! Is that right....???

Was it too hard for you my boy....so you had to go back to Italy...By the way, I have yet to meet an Italian worker in Italy who works 8 hours a day and only take 1 hour for lunch.

What right does someone who bales out of Moscow because they find the going too tough for them then stand on a pedestal and spout absolute nonsense to those of us who have stuck around through thick and thin.

You are an aboration and insult to the expatriate world here...go away and give the benefit of your inaccurate, rubbish, mis-informed drivel advice to some other country's expatriates....

Niklas
20-06-2008, 22:48
Niklas...you are out to lunch, or have just lost the plot!!! We are talking about a guy with a wife and two kids!!! Any idiot who lives on his own could have a greta time on $100k, the family we are talking about could not.

Ghurka, if you believe that everybody in this town earns more than 100k you must have lost touch with reality. I agree that this is a bloody expensive city, but without knowing the family's preferences, lifestyle and needs we can't give any proper advice, can we?

Bels
20-06-2008, 23:04
Will $100K a year income be enough for family of 4 (2 children under age of 3) in Moscow? many thanks for your insights

OK, I am bringing you back to the original question, and it would be nice if the original thread writer would respond and control his or her thread.

I am assuming that the thread writer is already currently a very successful professional already in his or her home country to be offered such a position in Moscow, where he or she would be offered a high salary package anyway, perhaps a director of a good established company, am I right? Because why bother coming here with such a young family. to what must seem very adventurous to most Americans and British.

I'm sorry I didn't check your profile.

But it doesn't matter, as your question has definately created a very interesting thread, due to the fact that cost of living, inflation and recession in comparison with EU, Europe, USA and the rest of the world is big news at the moment

Even though we have got Sal in the way who doesn't live in Moscow, and who is still single. A middle aged man? or was it a middle class man. But I thought he was still a student dependant on his Mama for living. And I bet his Mama pays for and does the shopping for him.

Sal if you are a middle class person as you claim, what's your profession and how much do you really earn? And how many hours do you really work?

ghurka12
20-06-2008, 23:08
Ghurka, if you believe that everybody in this town earns more than 100k you must have lost touch with reality. I agree that this is a bloody expensive city, but without knowing the family's preferences, lifestyle and needs we can't give any proper advice, can we?

Frankly Niklas I am afraid that you are just proving my point....you are out to lunch!!! LOL

Seriously though what European or American family with two kids would uproot and come to this country for less than $100k??? Bearing in mind the cost of maintaining the same standard of living that they had in the country they came from, then $100k would not be enough to attract such a family in the first place. $100k plus housing, plus schooling, plus medical (which is extremely expensive here), plus insurances, plus vehicle or driver, etc., etc., then maybe the family would be attracted.

Be real....the only family that would do such a thing would be one coming from a worse economic background or one involved in humanitarian aid or religion.

By the way.....do you have a wife here??? Do you have kids here???

xSnoofovich
20-06-2008, 23:13
well done :) I didn't find heinz!

Tesco in the UK is a 'nice' supermarket... that's why I used 7th Continent as a comparison (although Tesco's quality is WAY better)

The shop you are suggesting is akin to lidle or netto in the UK - can't be bothered at the moment but I'm certain the prices in these supermarkets are 30-40% cheaper than Tesco's

Also the point remains that this is way out of town, not around the corner I can't find all I want there...


But they deliver ! for 99 ru ! To anywhere inside of 200 km of Moscow ! For the same price !

The problem is the time, you have to choose either day or night, and then wait. The wife and I just choose Sunday morning, so we can party it up Saturday night, and sleep in, and then - Knock Knock, it is our food, and time to wake up :)

For sure, some of the stuff is cheaper at some places, some more expensive, and some places don't have things, but - if you know where to buy this and that, life in Moscow isn't as expensive as the papers say.

MissAnnElk
20-06-2008, 23:14
OK, I am bringing you back to the original question, and it would be nice if the original thread writer would respond and control his or her thread.

I am assuming that the thread writer is currently a very successful professional already in home countryto be offered such a position in Moscow, where he or she would be offered a high salary package anyway, perhaps a director of a good established company, am I right?

All we know is that the fellow is Ukrainian and currently in Haifa. (Baha'is?)

Bels
20-06-2008, 23:27
Ghurka, if you believe that everybody in this town earns more than 100k you must have lost touch with reality. I agree that this is a bloody expensive city, but without knowing the family's preferences, lifestyle and needs we can't give any proper advice, can we?

100k? Am I assuming $100,000 per year, about 50,000 per year, 1,000 per week. Nothing fantastic for a young professional family family trying to settle in Moscow for the first time.

Do you realise how much it really costs to settle and emigrate in any country as a family? Therefore you don't need to have much imagination as to what this family's preferences are. Because if it was a one room Russian flat without a washing machine, and enough money to eat at Macdonalds twice a week, they wouldn't bother.

Bels
20-06-2008, 23:30
All we know is that the fellow is Ukrainian and currently in Haifa. (Baha'is?)

Would I assume then that this person would expect less than one would coming from UK or USA for example?

xSnoofovich
20-06-2008, 23:30
100k? Am I assuming $100,000 per year, about 50,000 per year, 1,000 per week. Nothing fantastic for a young professional family family trying to settle in Moscow for the first time.

Do you realise how much it really costs to settle and emigrate in any country as a family? Therefore you don't need to have much imagination as to what this family's preferences are. Because if it was a one room Russian flat without a washing machine, and enough money to eat at Macdonalds twice a week, they wouldn't bother.


You don't make 100K USD a year. and yet, You still live here, and seem to be doing fine.

MissAnnElk
20-06-2008, 23:35
Would I assume then that this person would expect less than one would coming from UK or USA for example?

I would expect they speak the language. This means they can hail a gypsy cab, bargain in the rynoks, take advantage of Russian public schools and health care . . . there are lots of things out there that are cheaper if you don't need them in English.

Bels
20-06-2008, 23:49
You don't make 100K USD a year. and yet, You still live here, and seem to be doing fine.

No! :) But I'm working on it, and my wife doesn't believe it will happen either, but the potential is there. Starting September this year is definately going to be a good year for us. With most parents already booked accepting the new much higher fees.

But back to this young family, I don,t find it unrealistic for such a young family coming from the west to accept anything less than 1,000 per week plus all the benefits of what they need to settle down in Moscow. Am I assuming that this will be a caring established International company who are employing them?

xSnoofovich
20-06-2008, 23:50
Tesco in the UK is a 'nice' supermarket... that's why I used 7th Continent as a comparison (although Tesco's quality is WAY better) .

I actually have never been to the UK :( , so , I don't know. But, I hope 2, one of these days. :)

xSnoofovich
20-06-2008, 23:51
No! :) But I'm working on it, and my wife doesn't believe it will happen either, but the potential is there. Starting September this year is definately going to be a good year for us.

Best of luck ! :)

DJ Biscuit
21-06-2008, 00:19
I will happily stand corrected if I am wrong but if a family/person relocated from America 100K USD p/y is not so attractive, because not only will they pay tax here they also have to pay tax back in the US on that income irregardless that they are living abroad.

For a Ukrainian, in this case I have no idea. I am English so know that we don't have such a system and as a single person I could live quite comfortably here on half that...if someone wants to offer that to me... :)

Bels
21-06-2008, 00:19
I actually have never been to the UK :( , so , I don't know. But, I hope 2, one of these days. :)

Then you are missing out on something, go and get there and travel and experience this great country. I've been all over The USA, and it's great. But although Britain is smaller it will feel vast to you.

You will see more much quicker, and every twenty miles you travel in the UK, it will feel like a different culture to you. In fact every fifty miles there will be a different accent. Try Southampton, Yarmouth and Norfolk Broads, Yorkshire, Devon and Cornwall. The Great lakes, and WOW don't forget Scotland, as its very beautiful, especially if you have been lucky enough to catch it with good. I was lucky enough to return to my birth country when it was a heatwave, and believe me was amazed of it's natural beauty.

xSnoofovich
21-06-2008, 00:27
Then you are missing out on something, go and get there and travel and experience this great country. I've been all over The USA, and it's great. But although Britain is smaller it will feel vast to you.



My brother lived there for maybe 5 or 6 years, and I got weekly emails. He only recently left. I also have indirect relatives there.

We read a lot about England when we are children in America, and it seems like such a magical place. That is why I am so shocked when I read the papers, and watch the news.

But, I guess that is the same as anywhere, and the price we pay for growing older, and looking our childhood stories in the eye.

Zhenulka
21-06-2008, 00:35
It's noteworthy that only foreigners have commented on the purchasing power of 100K income in Moscow. Probably, that's because for many Russian families of four 100k income is still somewhat out of reach.

It's not that I am critical of high living standards if one can afford them...:eh: just thinking how different people's perception of high living standards can be.

xSnoofovich
21-06-2008, 00:38
It's noteworthy that only foreigners have commented on the purchasing power of 100K income in Moscow. Probably, that's because for many Russian families of four 100k income is still somewhat out of reach.

It's not that I am critical of high living standards if one can afford them...:eh: just thinking how different people's perception of high living standards can be.

LoL, you are so right ! I don't make anywhere near that, and yet, I still seem to be doing fine as well. :)

Bels
21-06-2008, 00:39
Oh boy! You are making me homesick, it a beautiful country and it shouldn't be centred in london as it is in Russia, because the rest of the UK is more beautiful. If you love natural beauty, try hiring your own long boat along the endless miles of our canals or even the rivers. Now that is bliss. Or simpy hire a car when you get there, that's what I did in my various visits to The USA, as I do believe you have a need to explore.

DJ Biscuit
21-06-2008, 00:41
Agreed. I said early on in this thread, that it depends on your perceptions and what you spend your money on. You can buy produce to feed a family a meal for a couple of hundred rubles or you can buy a loaf of bread in Azbuka Vkusa for the same price. It's easy to spend all the 100k if you want to, it's also possiible to live on ten times less than that if you have to.

xSnoofovich
21-06-2008, 00:46
Agreed. I said early on in this thread, that it depends on your perceptions and what you spend your money on. You can buy produce to feed a family a meal for a couple of hundred rubles or you can buy a loaf of bread in Azbuka Vkusa for the same price. It's easy to spend all the 100k if you want to, it's also possiible to live on ten times less than that if you have to.

well said !

journeyman
21-06-2008, 00:50
A big question when talking about income here is, "Why are you coming"?

That will determine a lot.
Is is for the adventure? Getting away from something (someone)?
Career move (presumably upward)?
Love of Russia? Wanting your kids to grow up bi-cultural?
Or just for the money?


Without knowing this it is impossible to evaluate potential satisfaction on most any income level

Bels
21-06-2008, 01:03
LoL, you are so right ! I don't make anywhere near that, and yet, I still seem to be doing fine as well. :)

It's not only that. First of all they need to be attracted to come here to achieve an income better than what they are getting in their home country, also they need to be housed, their non Russian speaking children need to be educated, they need proper health insurance etc, etc.

Now my guess is that you already have accommadation supplied by the state. Do have a high mortgage to pay? or a high rent to pay for example.
As I stated before, it's very difficult and expensive to start life in any country as a family of four. I want to go back to UK as a family of four, and believe me, that's also pricey, if you are starting from the beginning. Immigration is very expensive.

Bels
21-06-2008, 01:07
A big question when talking about income here is, "Why are you coming"?

That will determine a lot.
Is is for the adventure? Getting away from something (someone)?
Career move (presumably upward)?
Love of Russia? Wanting your kids to grow up bi-cultural?
Or just for the money?


Without knowing this it is impossible to evaluate potential satisfaction on most any income level

That's the trouble, most posters don't like giving details.But the best one I've seen is simply because I have been given an offer I can't refuse, and that says it all.

MissAnnElk
21-06-2008, 01:07
I will happily stand corrected if I am wrong but if a family/person relocated from America 100K USD p/y is not so attractive, because not only will they pay tax here they also have to pay tax back in the US on that income irregardless that they are living abroad.

Americans are taxed on their worldwide income. We usually also pay tax in our host country, but usually can deduct this tax from our US tax bill. Plus, if we stay out of the US for 331 days, we can deduct around $80,000 of our income . . . but that means you can only be in the US 34 days per year, max.

Bels
21-06-2008, 01:56
I don't know much about American details in tax, but I would assume that if they were employed by a top International company, all of their taxes and problems should be taken care of by the company they join, but I might be wrong on this one , as I don't know,

But I have seen recently in the news that top American employees have been employed with BP , Shell, British Telecom for example and no claims of problems in that area.I assume they pay one tax to Russia and not one to The USA, but not both. Surely??

OK! I might be wrong!l Tell me to keep out of American ways, as you are very complicatd.

Does Amricans know anything about PAYE, or do you have t deal with your own taxes as an employed person?

SalTheReturn
21-06-2008, 02:07
so Sal you are a prize poodle pillock of the first order.... YOU COULD NOT HANDLE MOSCOW AND SO YOU LEFT!!!!!!! Is that right....???

Was it too hard for you my boy....so you had to go back to Italy...By the way, I have yet to meet an Italian worker in Italy who works 8 hours a day and only take 1 hour for lunch.

What right does someone who bales out of Moscow because they find the going too tough for them then stand on a pedestal and spout absolute nonsense to those of us who have stuck around through thick and thin.

You are an aboration and insult to the expatriate world here...go away and give the benefit of your inaccurate, rubbish, mis-informed drivel advice to some other country's expatriates....

LOL LOL

could not I handle it? all my money were about nightlife (and what comes with that) so really saving it would have been a question of going out less and thats all

I was making my weekly shopping at the local market and once a week heading for Ramstor (then hailing a gypsy cab back home)

as concern my living condition in Moscow: 75m2 3 bedroom flat good remont all on my own. you can hardly beat this LOL LOL

dunno whats yr point about italian. we usually work 8hrs a day Mon-Fri for an average salary of 1000/1200euros

Bels
21-06-2008, 02:08
It's the same in London. I always find it odd when people talk about how London prices are higher than - insert place name here - but if you know where to go you can find cheaper.

For comfort and ease I understand expats on good packages going for the Azbuka Vkusa option, but I have been here 13 years and lately especially money has been tight, so I shop around. Travelling out to the MKAD to go grocery shopping is not on my list of fun things to do and unless you have transport getting the bus back with bags and bags of groceries is a nightmare.

But there are places in the centre and plenty of markets.

As with London, in Moscow you can pay 300 rubles for a beer or you can pay 60 rubles for a beer in a bar, depends what you want and where you go. If you want the basics and are not worried about glamorous interiors then you get the 60 ruble beers. It can be done, same with groceries but it takes some work and some compromise.

One just has to know what one wants and what one can afford and somehow find a happy medium.

Well local beers are pretty cheap in the shops anyway, that's one of the few luxuries left here, apart from smoking yourself to death. Now how about a pint or half litre of Guinnes or Stella for example.

SalTheReturn
21-06-2008, 02:09
OK, I am bringing you back to the original question, and it would be nice if the original thread writer would respond and control his or her thread.

I am assuming that the thread writer is already currently a very successful professional already in his or her home country to be offered such a position in Moscow, where he or she would be offered a high salary package anyway, perhaps a director of a good established company, am I right? Because why bother coming here with such a young family. to what must seem very adventurous to most Americans and British.

I'm sorry I didn't check your profile.

But it doesn't matter, as your question has definately created a very interesting thread, due to the fact that cost of living, inflation and recession in comparison with EU, Europe, USA and the rest of the world is big news at the moment

Even though we have got Sal in the way who doesn't live in Moscow, and who is still single. A middle aged man? or was it a middle class man. But I thought he was still a student dependant on his Mama for living. And I bet his Mama pays for and does the shopping for him.

Sal if you are a middle class person as you claim, what's your profession and how much do you really earn? And how many hours do you really work?

could you mind your business? given that people around me keep dying, my bak account is currently registering an active of 39.000euros. enough not to rush:-)))

SalTheReturn
21-06-2008, 02:13
I would expect they speak the language. This means they can hail a gypsy cab, bargain in the rynoks, take advantage of Russian public schools and health care . . . there are lots of things out there that are cheaper if you don't need them in English.

now i will tell you more: it is plenty of people who handled rynoks with no russian language skills.

this was one of the most pathetic attempt to excuse yourself

MissAnnElk, do not take me wrong...I am not the one telling you it is a mistake shopping at sedmoy, I am just asking you not to post misleading stuff.

DJ Biscuit
21-06-2008, 02:14
Again you have to shop around, I could take you to pubs in London where you can get a pint of beer for 1:20 GBP.

Only today I saw a Guinness priced at 350 Rubles ( 7 GBP) way out on Leningradsky Prospect in a bar.

Then again, you can get local beers here for 40 rubles (just under a pound) in bars around town. You just have to look around. Mainly these are pretty basic places but if you look round for happy hours 60 rubles a half litre is possible in a haf decent gaff.

Bels
21-06-2008, 02:16
But we are talking about a family of four , and you won't have any idea of such an experience. When you grow up, and not be dependant on your Mamma, then let us know how a family of four should live in Mscow, because at the moment you have no idea.

And I ask you again Sall? How did you manage to get this middlee class status you claim, when your Mamma is taking care of you at 28 years of age.


LOL LOL

could not I handle it? all my money were about nightlife (and what comes with that) so really saving it would have been a question of going out less and thats all

I was making my weekly shopping at the local market and once a week heading for Ramstor (then hailing a gypsy cab back home)

as concern my living condition in Moscow: 75m2 3 bedroom flat good remont all on my own. you can hardly beat this LOL LOL

dunno whats yr point about italian. we usually work 8hrs a day Mon-Fri for an average salary of 1000/1200euros

SalTheReturn
21-06-2008, 02:19
But we are talking about a family of four , and you won't have any idea of such an experience. When you grow up, and not be dependant on your Mamma, then let us know how a family of four should live in Mscow, because at the moment you have no idea.

And I ask you again Sall? How did you manage to get this middlee class status you claim, when your Mamma is taking care of you at 28 years of age.

I said you tons of time and getting bored with that

All my mum does it is WHEN I AM IN ITALY (which can be not so often) it is giving me free food and a bedsit. Actually just the food, because I am legally entitled to 33% of the house I am currently in. So my mum just spare me breakfast, lunch and dinner. All the rest is on me and, since I am 28, this is fair.

I am middle class because:
-i own the flat i live in
-i was educated at university
-i travel abroad 3/4 times a year
-i dress with middle-the-road brands
-i have savings in my bank account

Bels
21-06-2008, 02:27
WOW! So how much do you earn, and how much do you contribute to your family, or is this a British way of thinking. As I think it's international nowadays. specially when you're 28, and not 18 for example.


I said you tons of time and getting bored with that

All my mum does it is WHEN I AM IN ITALY (which can be not so often) it is giving me free food and a bedsit. Actually just the food, because I am legally entitled to 33% of the house I am currently in. So my mum just spare me breakfast, lunch and dinner. All the rest is on me and, since I am 28, this is fair.

I am middle class because:
-i own the flat i live in
-i was educated at university
-i travel abroad 3/4 times a year
-i dress with middle-the-road brands
-i have savings in my bank account

SalTheReturn
21-06-2008, 02:45
WOW! So how muc do you earn, and how much do you contribute to your family, or is this a British way of thinking. As I think it's international nowadays. specially when you're 28, and not 18 for example.

no i do not contribute to housing costs at all. my mum would not even accept that i do that. even my sis did not pay.

Bels you will drive me depressed now because I have to admit that by the end we will pay the consequences of such permissive culture like in italy.
no matter a young guy/girl in UK knows much more about life than the average italian. likely i travelled and could see and understand.

ok, end of the story. i am off.

MissAnnElk
21-06-2008, 08:15
But I have seen recently in the news that top American employees have been employed with BP , Shell, British Telecom for example and no claims of problems in that area.I assume they pay one tax to Russia and not one to The USA, but not both. Surely??

OK! I might be wrong!l Tell me to keep out of American ways, as you are very complicatd.

Yup. Both. We have always been "lucky" enough to have to pay both. But sometimes an employer has a "tax equalization benefit" so that the employee is not taxed more than they would be if they were living and working in the US. This does not apply in Russia, however, as the taxes in Russia are lower than in the US.

You can't be expected to understand the systems in the US anymore than I would be expected to know how it works in the UK . . . ;)

MissAnnElk
21-06-2008, 08:22
now i will tell you more: it is plenty of people who handled rynoks with no russian language skills.

Oh, of course. Even I do it.

But if I were just dropped into a rynok from, say, Des Moines, Iowa, I would be stressed about navigating how an Eastern European open market works the first few times. I'd have to take a big breath, and sort of steel myself to jump in and start interacting the first few times.

Now the vendors know me. No one speaks any English, but they are kind, they speak Russian slowly and clearly, I don't feel as thought I am stressful to them because they know that I know how it works . . .

I don't think I am misrepresenting anything: I think I am illustrating my experiences. As in all things, your mileage may vary.

Natkin
21-06-2008, 09:15
Funny thing about Russia, MissAnn - shops do NOT fight for customers, rynoks DO. Rynok`s vendour will do his/her best to understand you and be helpful, coz that will make you his regular client. DOn`t ask me why sales assistants in shops do NOT want you to come back every day.....

MissAnnElk
21-06-2008, 09:21
Funny thing about Russia, MissAnn - shops do NOT fight for customers, rynoks DO. Rynok`s vendour will do his/her best to understand you and be helpful, coz that will make you his regular client. DOn`t ask me why sales assistants in shops do NOT want you to come back every day.....

True . . . although in my Sedmoy they are VERY kind to me. If the guy behind the meat counter thinks what I asked for isn't the best, he will not sell it to me. He'll tell me when he expects a fresh delivery, etc. They are all like that in there.

But, yes, the individual vendors I have met remember me (not hard, probably).

Over all I have been extremely impressed with the Russian retail sellers. :ok:

RRM
21-06-2008, 10:56
Depending on your situation, in America you can either take a tax credit or a tax deduction on the Russian tax you pay. In a tax credit, you calculate all your final taxable income after all the deductions and then figure out the percentage of tax you will need to pay. If this percentage happens to be the same as you did in Russia then no tax in America. Tax deduction method is simply deducting the Russian tax you paid from your final income and get taxed on that amount.
Apart from this, there is another tax law. The first $87,000 of your income earned overseas can be excluded for tax purposes and then get taxed on the rest of the amount. However, the tax bracket for the rest of the amount will be as if you earned the entire money including the $87,000.
Second, there is a rental of housing overseas that you can also excluded. Since Moscow is considered a high rent city for tax purposes, upto $90,000 per year can be excluded from your taxable income provided you are renting such an apartment. So overall if you are living in Moscow, you can exclude the first $87,000+Apartment rental (upto $90,000) from your income. But again your tax bracket will remain the same as if you made all that money but only taxed on the rest of the amount.
If your spouse also works, then the first $87,000 of his or her salary can also be excluded(if filing taxes jointly). But the housing cannot be excluded at this time.
Depending on you situation, you might not be even taxed in America.


Yup. Both. We have always been "lucky" enough to have to pay both. But sometimes an employer has a "tax equalization benefit" so that the employee is not taxed more than they would be if they were living and working in the US. This does not apply in Russia, however, as the taxes in Russia are lower than in the US.

You can't be expected to understand the systems in the US anymore than I would be expected to know how it works in the UK . . . ;)

MissAnnElk
21-06-2008, 11:21
Here's 85m2, 2 bedrooms, inside the Garden Ring, 3000 EUROS/month. That's $5000 US. But sounds very nice and a good location.

2 bedroom apt. - The Moscow Expat Forums (http://www.expat.ru/forum/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=1844)

SalTheReturn
21-06-2008, 12:10
Funny thing about Russia, MissAnn - shops do NOT fight for customers, rynoks DO. Rynok`s vendour will do his/her best to understand you and be helpful, coz that will make you his regular client. DOn`t ask me why sales assistants in shops do NOT want you to come back every day.....

true my Azeri street vendor at the market in front of Kashirskaya even invited me to his marriage in Azerbaijan!!!

Astrid
22-06-2008, 19:12
Very true and I agree it's all relative, however the fact remains that there are no real equivalents to the supermarket chains of Azbuka Fecusna and Stockmans in the UK. OK Sainsbury's may be more expensive than Tesco but both were in easy reach and I had the choice without having to plan a day trip to the supermarket.

How about Waitrose, Marks and Spencer and PARTRIGES???

Astrid
22-06-2008, 19:26
Also, who really buys things like meat and fruit in Tesco? It's nasty!

Bels
22-06-2008, 23:38
Also, who really buys things like meat and fruit in Tesco? It's nasty!


Now how do you work that one out. Now I'm no promoter of Tesco, and I do prefer Sainsburies, but to state that any top Supermarket would have bad tasting meat, vegatables, or fruit. You simply haven't experienced these supermarkets. That's all I can say. And I am not a big supporter, simply being honest. If they came to to Russia with freedom without redtape here, they would kill all shops and current supermarkets that are in trade.

Astrid
23-06-2008, 00:33
Now how do you work that one out. Now I'm no promoter of Tesco, and I do prefer Sainsburies, but to state that any top Supermarket would have bad tasting meat, vegatables, or fruit. You simply haven't experienced these supermarkets. That's all I can say. And I am not a big supporter, simply being honest. If they came to to Russia with freedom without redtape here, they would kill all shops and current supermarkets that are in trade.

Yes, they would, im not arguing with that. I think you misunderstood me, im not saying that any top supermarket has bad meat and fruit, I am saying Tesco does. I don't know anyone who doesn't cringe at the thought of Tesco's chicken cutlets. If you want something a bit more healthy / with a better taste, go to Waitrose or M&S. While Tesco is useful for some things (mainly stuff from brands other than tesco itself), you can't really compare Tesco cereal with whatever Kellogs they sell in 7Kontinent, Tesco might cost less but it's nasty and tastes like sugary carboard. I think the quality of food is essential and more important than its price. I vote quality food is better value in Moscow, than in London, for sure for sure for sure.

Bels
23-06-2008, 00:46
Yes, they would, im not arguing with that. I think you misunderstood me, im not saying that any top supermarket has bad meat and fruit, I am saying Tesco does. I don't know anyone who doesn't cringe at the thought of Tesco's chicken cutlets. If you want something a bit more healthy / with a better taste, go to Waitrose or M&S. While Tesco is useful for some things (mainly stuff from brands other than tesco itself), you can't really compare Tesco cereal with whatever Kellogs they sell in 7Kontinent, Tesco might cost less but it's nasty and tastes like sugary carboard. I think the quality of food is essential and more important than its price. I vote quality food is better value in Moscow, than in London, for sure for sure for sure.

I doubt it very much, and taking that from some Russians, they don't trust anything that's Russian managed, and especially well known brands that have now been taken over by Russians. Look at Cadburies or Pepsi for example. How many Russians really do believe that they are getting the same quality as the rest of the world. None of them!

There is no quality control in Moscow. As there is no EU conrol.

boscoe
23-06-2008, 00:47
How about Waitrose, Marks and Spencer and PARTRIGES???M&S and Waitrose are no where near as expensive as Abuka Fecusna and the quality is no where near as good...

Sorry but Tesco's 'best' range bacon is some of the best quality in the UK from a supermarket... and I know my bacon :)

boscoe
23-06-2008, 00:51
you can't really compare Tesco cereal with whatever Kellogs they sell in 7Kontinent, Tesco might cost less but it's nasty and tastes like sugary carboard.

and nobody was...

Astrid
23-06-2008, 01:04
and nobody was...

I thought you did ... Anyway, I think we ended up arguing about tastes here. You like Tesco meat, good for you...
But I live in both UK and Moscow, and I don't see how 7Kontinent is more expensive than Waitrose. My Moscow Home has an Azbuka Vkusa next to it, and I can tell it's more comparable to something like Patriges in the UK, which is a place you only go to when you have to have a 5 pound pack of Lucky Charms that you can't buy anywhere else.

boscoe
23-06-2008, 02:40
I thought you did ... Anyway, I think we ended up arguing about tastes here. You like Tesco meat, good for you...
But I live in both UK and Moscow, and I don't see how 7Kontinent is more expensive than Waitrose. My Moscow Home has an Azbuka Vkusa next to it, and I can tell it's more comparable to something like Patriges in the UK, which is a place you only go to when you have to have a 5 pound pack of Lucky Charms that you can't buy anywhere else.
I don't want to seem rude to a new poster but you could try reading my responses... I compared the prices of Kellogg's cornflakes in two markets and I didn't say 7 cont is more expensive than Waitrose... I said that Azbuka was...

SalTheReturn
23-06-2008, 11:05
I don't want to seem rude to a new poster but you could try reading my responses... I compared the prices of Kellogg's cornflakes in two markets and I didn't say 7 cont is more expensive than Waitrose... I said that Azbuka was...

I still do not understand if you compared the price of Kellog's corn flakes with Tesco corn flakes OR you compared the same product (Kellogs corn flakes) in the 2 supermarkets

Kellogs is a brand, if Tesco produce its OWN corn flakes they are surely cheaper...

Bels
23-06-2008, 11:46
I still do not understand if you compared the price of Kellog's corn flakes with Tesco corn flakes OR you compared the same product (Kellogs corn flakes) in the 2 supermarkets

Kellogs is a brand, if Tesco produce its OWN corn flakes they are surely cheaper...

Please tell me that you are simply trying to wind Boscoe up, and that you that you know full well that he has never compared the Tesco brand of cornflakes. Yes, all supermarkets do have their own brand named products, and they are always cheaper. However most people prefer to buy the brand names.

SalTheReturn
23-06-2008, 11:48
Please tell me that you are simply trying to wind Boscoe up, and that you that you know full well that he has never compared the Tesco brand of cornflakes. Yes, all supermarkets do have their own brand named products, and they are always cheaper. However most people prefer to buy the brand names.

actually even native speaker Astrid apparently misunderstood Boscoe...are we all wind ups?

Bels
23-06-2008, 12:05
actually even native speaker Astrid apparently misunderstood Boscoe...are we all wind ups?

You said it all :)

boscoe
23-06-2008, 12:29
actually even native speaker Astrid apparently misunderstood Boscoe...are we all wind ups?
No I think Astrid read your post where you misunderstood ;)

trebor
23-06-2008, 12:35
You'd definately need a shed load of cash to obtain the same standard of living as you would at home in the UK.
However, you can have resonable life style in Moscow but you are probably going to have to make some sacrifices somewhere.
For one i never understood this obsession with some expats for living in the centre. If you're single okay but what benefits does living inside the garden ring give you if you have a wife and a couple of young ankle biters?
You can save a lot from your budget by finding an apartment nearer the end of the metro lines.
I lived at Pioneerskaya years ago and loved it. (it was near the end of the line back then) The company found me a place 4 minutes walk from the metro. It was quiet, less congested, parks and all the usual producti shops, rynok nearby. Sedmoi Continent was a couple of stops further up. Again, right next to the metro. No need for drivers. Or take a taxi for the weekly shopping if the sauce pan lids and the shopping are too much to handle
If you are lucky enough to work near a metro station a 40 minute commute to the centre each way is a small price to pay for a better/cheaper life style. In my opinion.

MissAnnElk
23-06-2008, 12:47
For one i never understood this obsession with some expats for living in the centre. If you're single okay but what benefits does living inside the garden ring give you if you have a wife and a couple of young ankle biters?

You've made me think.

I've lived in a city center now in three different countries, all of them with small children.

For me it is a function of being near the action: I want to be able to go out to a function and get home easily. I decided that one of the attractive features of the gig (wherever that gig was), was what was in the city center. And, usually, that's where my friends also lived. I was afraid I'd put my head in the oven if I were living out in a village or suburb with no other expat types somewhere nearby. Wasn't ready to go too native.

That said, Moscow is different because being along any metro line here will work. This is the first city I've lived in with a decent public transportation system.

For us, we're now in the center because that's where the school is. But if I ever have to move while I am still here, I would consider being farther out, as long as I am along an appropriate metro line. I spend about 30 minutes walking to school now . . . I could spend that on a train and then have the benefits of lower cost of living.

Astrid
23-06-2008, 19:42
Guys, can we all make peace now? :10168: It doesn't matter, one way or another, you can find cheaper food in Moscow when you're prepared to invest some time and energy, just as you can shop at Asda every weekened.
To answer the question properly, we would need to know how you define "well". If you're prepared to live outside the City Center (im not saying Biberivo, just a bit farther out), if your kids don't need expensive international school and can deal with the local Russian one, if you enjoy home cooking, don't need to go out to dinner every night, if you are not prejudeced against Russian food products... then yeah, it's probably enough.

DJ Biscuit
23-06-2008, 19:47
Well done! Finally someone summed it all up.

How come no one mentioned F&M's by the way, a fine food shop if ever there was one! :)

MissAnnElk
23-06-2008, 19:57
Well done! Finally someone summed it all up.

How come no one mentioned F&M's by the way, a fine food shop if ever there was one! :)

What is this F&Ms you speak of?

DJ Biscuit
23-06-2008, 20:06
:)

Fortnum and Mason's - London.

MissAnnElk
23-06-2008, 20:10
Guys, can we all make peace now? :10168: It doesn't matter, one way or another, you can find cheaper food in Moscow when you're prepared to invest some time and energy, just as you can shop at Asda every weekend.

What we need, is a potluck!

Alas, I am leaving Friday. But someone should bully Mr. Elk into hosting while I'm gone. Poor SOB thinks he has no friends . . .

DJ Biscuit
23-06-2008, 20:14
Poor SOB thinks he has no friends . . .

PMSL!!!

MissAnnElk
23-06-2008, 20:16
PMSL!!!

Well, in that case, I'll make sure he DOESN'T let you come over until you get that problem sorted.

elis
23-06-2008, 20:19
PMSL!!!

I'm really bad at acronyms. :question:

But I think Mr. Elk has lots of friends . . .

DJ Biscuit
23-06-2008, 20:20
Look who's on a roll tonight...

Bels
23-06-2008, 21:02
Guys, can we all make peace now? :10168: It doesn't matter, one way or another, you can find cheaper food in Moscow when you're prepared to invest some time and energy, just as you can shop at Asda every weekened.
To answer the question properly, we would need to know how you define "well". If you're prepared to live outside the City Center (im not saying Biberivo, just a bit farther out), if your kids don't need expensive international school and can deal with the local Russian one, if you enjoy home cooking, don't need to go out to dinner every night, if you are not prejudeced against Russian food products... then yeah, it's probably enough.

How much time do you need to invest to go to the big Asda, Sainsburies, or Tesco in the UK. They are everywhere surrounding every city, town and village, with about a five minute drive to the nearest one, or that's what I have experienced. And when get there the service is fast and efficient service with all of them, and with a much better choice and value for many in all food ranges, whether it be branded names, fruit , vegatables, meat or whatever. Such supermarkets would kill all all Moscow supermarkets and shops if they chose to come here, due to their buying power and prestige of choice and quality food. M&S is already here, but unfortunately they are not the same as they are in the UK.

Yes! in regards to kids education, the argument has been covered in other threads, expat children are best to go Russian schools if they can, but if they don't know the Russian language in the first place it can be difficult. Of course the younger they are, the easier it becomes, and it's so much easier for a child to adapt to another language compared to an adult, believe me.

One tip might be is to first get your child Russian tuition, before registering your child to a school. It helps a lot if you arrive in the Summer well before September, the beginning of the school year. What a great opportunity for your child to be educated in another language, yet keep his/her native language. And yes you will save money, compared to using International schools.

And the problem with employed expats is that they must be in an area of which is convenient to their employment, shopping, health, and childrens education. Now that choice can be very difficult for them if they live outside Moscow.

One other shock, property in the western region of Moscow, whether renting or buying is now no longer cheaper than Moscow itself, and in some cases for the current modern flats, they are actually more expensive than many parts of the Moscow city. Shocking! I know because that Rublienskie shosse is constantly blocked by traffic jams. How on earth they can justify this area being so expensive, with such a lousy "B" class road as the only route to the west, I don't honestly know.

vox16
29-06-2008, 00:15
people do not migrate to live in the same conditions a standard russian live, people migrate to be like those russian who shop at sedmoy continent

Something like cargo cult? You shop like them and you will be like them.

Bels
29-06-2008, 12:31
Perhaps keeping an eye in the vacancies section here might help in your decision.

Vacancies :: Moscow's virtual community for English speaking expats and Russians (http://expat.ru/vacancies.php)

You can also post your resume there, perhaps something might come up.

Your children, how old are they? And have managed to keep their Russian language? If not, have you thought where they might be educated?

w.meijerink
29-06-2008, 17:50
Come on people of course is 100k enough to live in Moscow, but when you are a little clever and try to find a house just outsite Moscow, somewhere in the small village, buy a car and drive everyday to your work.
People outside in the country are much nicer and will help you easier than people in one of the big cities.
And it's easier to rent somebody to help you to clean the house and with shopping.

Bels
29-06-2008, 18:04
Come on people of course is 100k enough to live in Moscow, but when you are a little clever and try to find a house just outsite Moscow, somewhere in the small village, buy a car and drive everyday to your work.
People outside in the country are much nicer and will help you easier than people in one of the big cities.
And it's easier to rent somebody to help you to clean the house and with shopping.

Don't you think that it's more expensive to live just outside Moscow? And in a house rather than a flat in Moscow? And most of us will be dependant on getting our income one way or another in Central. There is the cost of travel to Moscow in time and money for example. I live in a village just outside Moscow, and I don't find it cheaper.

Of course there are plus's and minus's living outside in the country, close to a forest and a cleaner river.

Has anybody experienced travelling in the Rublenskie Uspienskie shosse for example. One narrow country road for the whole of the fast expanding western region. It's always got traffic jams, and you could be stuck in those roads for hours.

I suppose that's the price you have to put up with for clean air.

w.meijerink
29-06-2008, 19:23
Don't you think that it's more expensive to live just outside Moscow? And in a house rather than a flat in Moscow? And most of us will be dependant on getting our income one way or another in Central. There is the cost of travel to Moscow in time and money for example. I live in a village just outside Moscow, and I don't find it cheaper.

Of course there are plus's and minus's living outside in the country, close to a forest and a cleaner river.

Has anybody experienced travelling in the Rublenskie Uspienskie shosse for example. One narrow country road for the whole of the fast expanding western region. It's always got traffic jams, and you could be stuck in those roads for hours.

I suppose that's the price you have to put up with for clean air.

I'm not sure for Moscow, but for Sank Petersbourg, by train and metro, it take for me 1houre from Sosnovo, and I live there in fresh air, without stress of the city centre where everyone is in a hurry and runs.
Shops are cheaper and the people are kind, so for me it's not a problem to travel every day 1-2 hours to have rest.

Bels
29-06-2008, 21:50
I'm not sure for Moscow, but for Sank Petersbourg, by train and metro, it take for me 1houre from Sosnovo, and I live there in fresh air, without stress of the city centre where everyone is in a hurry and runs.
Shops are cheaper and the people are kind, so for me it's not a problem to travel every day 1-2 hours to have rest.

Now that's what I like to hear. Now there was an old book I read from my wife where they claimed they would build a train link from the Metro going west of Moscow in 1997. Now this exciting idea hasn't happened yet, and it's now 2008. It would be a great start. And believe me if you explore this area, and see the massive growth in the building of flats, housing developements, factories, shops etc, you will understand what I am talking about. With such input of developement bringing a much higher population of people you need a good transport system. And I can't see it happening anywhere in the near future. I prdict that that the Western region will be at a complete standstill very soon, and that's where our top people, and leaders of Russia live.

Perhaps St.Petersbourg has got it right, and appears to be the top tourist area for Brits visiting Russia. Perhaps St Petersbourg should have its title back as the capital returned to them, as they appear to be doing a better job in regards to developement of its city and its transport.

trebor
30-06-2008, 00:43
Don't forget there's also the electrichka, local trains that connect central Moscow with areas outside the city.

Bels
30-06-2008, 01:15
There are some, but not convenient to me. No superlinks to link within the metro don't exist, most certainly not from the west, of which presumably would be their first choice. Yes they have talked about it since 1997. Instead they they are developing very fast, of which is encouraging a mass of population. Will that tiny rublievskie road cope with it? NO! it can't even cope now. Once they get the commonsense to create transport systems along with contruction progress they might see progress.

But for the moment I foresee chaos in the near future, and for those who are normally wealthy will be wondering why on earth they chose the West of Russia, with so much chaos going on. What! No transport! and one stupid country road! What on earth are we doing here! And many times this road is blocked up to allow "important guests" to travel freely along this road.

w.meijerink
30-06-2008, 02:09
Now that's what I like to hear. Now there was an old book I read from my wife where they claimed they would build a train link from the Metro going west of Moscow in 1997. Now this exciting idea hasn't happened yet, and it's now 2008. It would be a great start. And believe me if you explore this area, and see the massive growth in the building of flats, housing developements, factories, shops etc, you will understand what I am talking about. With such input of developement bringing a much higher population of people you need a good transport system. And I can't see it happening anywhere in the near future. I prdict that that the Western region will be at a complete standstill very soon, and that's where our top people, and leaders of Russia live.

Perhaps St.Petersbourg has got it right, and appears to be the top tourist area for Brits visiting Russia. Perhaps St Petersbourg should have its title back as the capital returned to them, as they appear to be doing a better job in regards to developement of its city and its transport.

I know I know my best Bels public transport is very important and sometimes it takes a long way to have them.
But when I'm home at 18:00 take fast my dinner and than go with dogs, wife and kids to the lake to fishing or swimming than I can not understand that we (people who escape our country) want to live in a city like Moscow or ST. Petersburg with smog and a lot of noice when we can have our freedom of the country style, we expat can live like queens and kings in russia and I feel myself like a king, but I spend also time and money for the people around me, Russia is a perfect country with perfect people, but we have to find them.

trebor
30-06-2008, 02:32
There are some, but not convenient to me. No superlinks to link within the metro don't exist, most certainly not from the west, of which presumably would be their first choice. Yes they have talked about it since 1997. Instead they they are developing very fast, of which is encouraging a mass of population. Will that tiny rublievskie road cope with it? NO! it can't even cope now. Once they get the commonsense to create transport systems along with contruction progress they might see progress.

But for the moment I foresee chaos in the near future, and for those who are normally wealthy will be wondering why on earth they chose the West of Russia, with so much chaos going on. What! No transport! and one stupid country road! What on earth are we doing here! And many times this road is blocked up to allow "important guests" to travel freely along this road.

I believe the elektrichka from Zhukovka direction comes into Kievskaya but i'm not certain. I've never travelled on it.
It would be interesting to have a first hand account of that or any of the other commuter trains out of the centre.

SalTheReturn
30-06-2008, 10:39
Don't forget there's also the electrichka, local trains that connect central Moscow with areas outside the city.

thats another things which show how Moscow can still be Thirld World LOL LOL

Willy
30-06-2008, 12:46
thats another things which show how Moscow can still be Thirld World LOL LOL


So Boston Ma. is in the third world Sal?

We have used them for years and you would know why if you ever had to drive into Boston every morning. Tell us how it is riding to bus Sal? Do you sit there thinking your superior to all those people who didn't have to asked their mom for some small change for the bus so you can go down town and not get laid?

TheValiant60
22-08-2008, 15:50
See below...

TheValiant60
22-08-2008, 16:18
Not sure if anyone is still looking at this question from awhile back, but my family has just moved to Moscow and definitely find it possible to live on less than we did in New York or California. In New York, we lived both in the city and in the suburbs and shopped accordingly. In California, the same was true. Here, we shop partly at the fruit/vegetable stands outside our flat (which is just outside the inner ring, in an upscale neighborhood) and we go to Ashan about once a week. Our apartment is definitely more reasonably priced than New York City or San Francisco, for the price and location, and without a 'corporate discount' (i.e. we pay around market price). Our grocery bill is definitely lower overall, perhaps about 3/4 of what it was in the New York suburb (while shopping at Trader Joe's, Costco and other value-oriented stores), and about 1/2 as much as when we lived in the city, and we eat IN more, so we are likely actually buying more groceries. Mid-priced restaurants are slightly more expensive here, while high and low-priced restaurants and stands appear comparable.

We have not found that going out to pubs and clubs, regardless of area, costs more than comparable activity in New York City or near suburbs. Beer and wine in the grocery store and at kiosks is significantly cheaper expensive U.S. cities. Most electronics appear comparably priced to the U.S. (I just bought a printer and camera that I in identical models in the U.S. and the cost was about identical). Because we are still new, I can't speak to medical care and pharmaceuticals, etc., though my understanding is that it's cheaper here. Toiletries appear to be comparable or cheaper in here. Clothing and furnishings appear to be slightly more expensive in Moscow for comparable quality to the US. Stationary and books in English cost slightly more but are not generally difficult to find or have delivered. Travel by public transportation and air is generally cheaper in Russia for comparable distances to the U.S. and between various countries. Pet food and supplies are more expensive in Moscow than in the U.S. (we have a large dog and now make our own, which is cheaper to do in Moscow than in the U.S. for comparable meats, fish, and other dog-food-making supplies).

As for school, I understand expat schools are expensive. We have a one year old and one on the way, but we plan to send them to Russian schools as the expat ones remind us too much of some of the New York private schools, from which kids almost always seem to emerge with damaged egos and clichd personalities, albeit possibly also with chess championships and acceptance letters to Harvard, etc. (but those aims arent so difficult to achieve anyway, if you care to make them your focus :-)

[Note: I accept not everyone will agree with me on these assessments and I'm certainly not calling myself an authority, I just wanted to share my experience as someone who has been back-and-forth between CA, NY and Moscow for awhile and has newly moved to Moscow full-time. Some people can be really defensive and mean on this forum when others don't agree with them -- how strange!]