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jerj11123
11-05-2008, 18:16
Yes,


Also on a side note, is it true that in St. Petersburg and Moscow they are very racist against dark skinned poeple (black/brown skinned people) and will kill them or mug them or beat them up in public places such as bars and restaurants? Is this very common and should dark skinned people simply avoid Russia. . . Thoughts or opinions?

thanks
Jenny

Aşık melek
11-05-2008, 18:30
i feel shame for my city, but its true....... St.Petersburg fromone hand is the cultural capital of russia, from another - racist's capital.......how it can be at the same time - only god knows....... please take care, donts walk alone especially in the evenings, nights, dont use public transport in the late evenings, take a taxi...... so many africans, arabs, turks, vietnamese people were murdered only because of their nation ...........

Guest
11-05-2008, 19:36
> so many africans, arabs, turks, vietnamese people were murdered only because of their nation

More Russians were murdered in Russia than africans + arabs + turks + vietnamese people. Russia is racist against Russians :( And I am 200% racists against idiots like those 2 who wrote above.

Carbo
11-05-2008, 21:18
> so many africans, arabs, turks, vietnamese people were murdered only because of their nation

More Russians were murdered in Russia than africans + arabs + turks + vietnamese people. Russia is racist against Russians :( And I am 200% racists against idiots like those 2 who wrote above.
I don't think that that was the point he was making, Guest; and I think your causal logic is rather skewed.

He is saying that the motive behind the murders of these people was race. Saying that another group of people were murdered in larger numbers doesn't affect his argument unless you say that they were murdered because they were Russians.

For what it's worth, in Moscow, I've had nothing but a great reception when I mentioned my nationality. I would have thought that with all of the b*ll**it going on at the moment between Britain and Russia, and knowing Russians are patriotic, that I may have got some abuse or something. But, in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. In my experience, Russian's are very wecoming to foreigners, especially when they have an opportunity to sit down with you, drink vodka, eat salted cucumber and brown bread and put the world right.

However, I'm white, so I'm not sure whether I'd be treat any differently if I was black. Who knows? I haven't seen or heard of any racial violence, but then I hardly see, let alone know, any black people here in Moscow, so I can't really comment bar what I've read in the press.

I've I were you, I would take a "better safe than sorry" attitude when out.

Guest
11-05-2008, 22:54
> I don't think that that was the point he was making, Guest; and I think your causal logic is rather skewed.

You are perfectly right on the 2 points, but my "causal logic" is tired as the same BS posts appear here every month.

I didn't read your answer as I already know all argumentation about racist Russians against non-Russian victims, bla-bla-bla.

Transparent Theatre
12-05-2008, 10:37
all of the b*ll**it going on at the moment between Britain and Russia, and knowing Russians are patriotic, that I may have got some abuse or something. But, in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. In my experience

This is easily explained. Individual Russians are long sick and tired of being made to face collective guilt for the shortcomings of Communism, the evils of Stalin etc. They distinguish between the individual, and the idiotic policies of that person's national Govt - and appreciate that you will do likewise.

Elizaveta
12-05-2008, 13:44
Hello, I speaking about rasists, of course, it exists in big cities because people are not used to see black or Japanese people here but I was in south India and there people are very reserved and not modern and looked at me in a strange way, like I am abnormal since I am white. So, I feel myself in a zoo)

Guest
12-05-2008, 14:01
Hello, I speaking about rasists, of course, it exists in big cities because people are not used to see black or Japanese people here but I was in south India and there people are very reserved and not modern and looked at me in a strange way, like I am abnormal since I am white. So, I feel myself in a zoo)


Racism is only when guilty whites harass innocent blacks, browns, yellows, etc etc.

When it is the opposite it is not racism, it is "an understandable problem of society caused by the racism that blacks, browns, yellows etc are always the victims".

Carbo
12-05-2008, 14:13
Racism is only when guilty whites harass innocent blacks, browns, yellows, etc etc.

You are correct, Guest, racism exists in all societies and spreads like wildfire among the ignorant.

But black, hispanic or asian racism doesn't mean we can justify or brush under the carpet our own racism.

Let's not use arguments like that to become apologists for our racists.

Guest
12-05-2008, 14:22
You are correct, Guest, racism exists in all societies and spreads like wildfire among the ignorant.

But black, hispanic or asian racism doesn't mean we can justify or brush under the carpet our own racism.

Let's not use arguments like that to become apologists for our racists.


Where did I justify any racism, where did I do apology of "our" racists? I just mean today's politically correct wants that nobody speaks about racism against whites, and it is exactly what I can read on this forum, every month the same kind of BS. This time, it is special, we have TWO threads at the same time with the same topic! Moderators are sleeeeeping probably... They should at least merge the threads, Or cancel both :D

That would be "racist censorship", I am ready to read about those racist Russians who, moreover, are censors :D

RRM
12-05-2008, 14:24
You are right, cant keep up with this subject. I thought I gave my two cents then I see another one off in a different direction.


Where did I justify any racism, where did I do apology of "our" racists? I just mean today's politically correct wants that nobody speaks about racism against whites, and it is exactly what I can read on this forum, every month the same kind of BS. This time, it is special, we have TWO threads at the same time with the same topic! Moderators are sleeeeeping probably... They should at least merge the threads, Or cancel both :D

That would be "racist censorship", I am ready to read about those racist Russians who, moreover, are censors :D

TGP
13-05-2008, 13:45
Racism is only when guilty whites harass innocent blacks, browns, yellows, etc etc.

When it is the opposite it is not racism, it is "an understandable problem of society caused by the racism that blacks, browns, yellows etc are always the victims".

I agree. Try to start a thread about blacks, browns, yellow etc who are very often engaged in illegal business in Russia (like drugs), and see what will happen. I bet their activity will be justified.

BTW, why any crime against colored people is immediately proclaimed as racist? Quite often it is ganglaned killing.

RRM
13-05-2008, 13:54
How is that racism ? I get the same here when I walk around.


Hello, I speaking about rasists, of course, it exists in big cities because people are not used to see black or Japanese people here but I was in south India and there people are very reserved and not modern and looked at me in a strange way, like I am abnormal since I am white. So, I feel myself in a zoo)

vladimir_seroff
13-05-2008, 14:27
I agree. Try to start a thread about blacks, browns, yellow etc who are very often engaged in illegal business in Russia (like drugs), and see what will happen. I bet their activity will be justified.

BTW, why any crime against colored people is immediately proclaimed as racist? Quite often it is ganglaned killing.

How can the fact that they are "blacks, browns, yellow etc." be possibly directly related to the “who are very often engaged in illegal business in Russia" statement?
How is it different from saying something like “males between 170 and 180 sm. in height, between 20 and 45 years of age, with brown hair are often engaged in illegal activities”? Is it a true statement? I am sure it is the case that there are very many males in Russia with these characteristics who are engaged in illegal activities. Whether this happens often or not depends on your definition of “often”.
If what you are trying to say is that, you think, that there is a positive correlation between being "black, brown, yellow etc" and being involved with illegal activities in Russia, then, you better be prepared to present the statistics that shows that.
Even if you have the statistics, you have to factor out the fact that these characteristics are also very strongly positively correlated with being a person of a non-Russian origin. This, in turn, suggests less local connections, worse knowledge of the Russian language, etc. This, in turn, results in those people’s having less opportunities, thus, finding it much harder to survive in Russia. And, finally, this means that they are more likely to be forced by the circumstances to be engaged in illegal activities. It is not an excuse by any means, but an explanation why it is not because of the color of their skin that they behave like that.
Making such statements, because you really think that the color of the skin of these people is the reason behind this type of behavior is definitely racism.
Making such statements having not conducted the above analysis, and having not taken into consideration that the people can be seriously offended by such unfair generalization, and rightly so, I think, is the sign of lack of experience in these matters. But an outside observer would not know the difference, and would also call it racism.

That is why there is so much coverage. It really deserves the coverage. People need to understand how flawed their logic often is, when dealing with people who look, act, dress or behave different from what everybody is used to in a particular region. It is a bigger problem than, if a Russian person is treated unfairly, because he/she is a Russian. A Russian person has a lot of backup in Russia. A bigger problem deserves greater coverage.

TGP
13-05-2008, 16:22
How can the fact that they are "blacks, browns, yellow etc." be possibly directly related to the “who are very often engaged in illegal business in Russia" statement?
How is it different from saying something like “males between 170 and 180 sm. in height, between 20 and 45 years of age, with brown hair are often engaged in illegal activities”? Is it a true statement? I am sure it is the case that there are very many males in Russia with these characteristics who are engaged in illegal activities. Whether this happens often or not depends on your definition of “often”.
If what you are trying to say is that, you think, that there is a positive correlation between being "black, brown, yellow etc" and being involved with illegal activities in Russia, then, you better be prepared to present the statistics that shows that.
Even if you have the statistics, you have to factor out the fact that these characteristics are also very strongly positively correlated with being a person of a non-Russian origin. This, in turn, suggests less local connections, worse knowledge of the Russian language, etc. This, in turn, results in those people’s having less opportunities, thus, finding it much harder to survive in Russia. And, finally, this means that they are more likely to be forced by the circumstances to be engaged in illegal activities. It is not an excuse by any means, but an explanation why it is not because of the color of their skin that they behave like that.
Making such statements, because you really think that the color of the skin of these people is the reason behind this type of behavior is definitely racism.
Making such statements having not conducted the above analysis, and having not taken into consideration that the people can be seriously offended by such unfair generalization, and rightly so, I think, is the sign of lack of experience in these matters. But an outside observer would not know the difference, and would also call it racism.

That is why there is so much coverage. It really deserves the coverage. People need to understand how flawed their logic often is, when dealing with people who look, act, dress or behave different from what everybody is used to in a particular region. It is a bigger problem than, if a Russian person is treated unfairly, because he/she is a Russian. A Russian person has a lot of backup in Russia. A bigger problem deserves greater coverage.

What a strange and wrong interpretation of my post! As Sal would say, "disappointed"...

They are engaged in illegal business not because of their skin color, but for other reasons, you mentioned some of them, which, as you rightly said, does not justify them at all. Of course, there are many Russian/white men engaged in criminal business, who argues?! What I want to say is that if some colored skin person is murdered, the murder is not necessarily a racist action, this person may be murdered for, say, his not fulfillment of his crimical "obligation". For example: someone (non-Russian) did not sell drugs to his usual client, and the latter killed the seller. Is it a racist action? No, it is not, but without knowing all the details they may state it is demonstration of racism. But if a Russian is killed by a non-Russian under the same circumstances, this murder will never be considered as an act of racism.

Is it because a Russian has a lot of backup in Russia?

As for observers and all kinds of "specialists" from outside Russia, they have a habit to draw conclusions on THEIR experience, and the rules and standards set up in their countries, but this is another subject of discussion. I hope this statement of mine does not sound as demonstration of nationalism to you.

vladimir_seroff
13-05-2008, 16:56
What a strange and wrong interpretation of my post! As Sal would say, "disappointed"...

They are engaged in illegal business not because of their skin color, but for other reasons, you mentioned some of them, which, as you rightly said, does not justify them at all. Of course, there are many Russian/white men engaged in criminal business, who argues?! What I want to say is that if some colored skin person is murdered, the murder is not necessarily a racist action, this person may be murdered for, say, his not fulfillment of his crimical "obligation". For example: someone (non-Russian) did not sell drugs to his usual client, and the latter killed the seller. Is it a racist action? No, it is not, but without knowing all the details they may state it is demonstration of racism. But if a Russian is killed by a non-Russian under the same circumstances, this murder will never be considered as an act of racism.

Is it because a Russian has a lot of backup in Russia?

As for observers and all kinds of "specialists" from outside Russia, they have a habit to draw conclusions on THEIR experience, and the rules and standards set up in their countries, but this is another subject of discussion. I hope this statement of mine does not sound as demonstration of nationalism to you.

I bet, if you read some things that they sometimes write about Russians in Latvian newspapers, you would agree that it is better to be sensitive, even if you mean no harm, of which people, who do not know you, can never be sure.

"Outside observers" rarely mean foreigners unless the subject of a discussion is a foreign country, or international relations. By outside observers I meant anyone who is not familiar with details of what you are trying to describe – on the outside, relative to the case.
This is exactly what happened with your previous post. Now, that you explained the details, it is clear, but based on what you wrote originally anyone not knowing you personally could have suspected you of making a racist statement. That is what I tried to warn you against – try to read your post, again. IMHO, one cannot gain anything by not trying to avoid offending people, whereas one can definitely lose.
The skewness of the interpretations by the media that you described can be explained by relatively higher frequency of racially motivated killings in cases, when the victim(s) is(are) not person(s) of a nationality that is one of those primarily populating the Russian North-West, whereas the perpetrator(s) is(are). This is based on my own observations, on what I hear and read in the Russian news, or see on the Russian TV.
I am not suggesting that the legal system approach to a murder case should depend on any statistic, but, as for journalists, they are the only people who could compensate for the injustice. Often, they go too far in what they do, but who doesn’t. If they do not compensate for it, then who will?

Carbo
13-05-2008, 20:31
Where did I justify any racism, where did I do apology of "our" racists? I just mean today's politically correct wants that nobody speaks about racism against whites, and it is exactly what I can read on this forum, every month the same kind of BS. This time, it is special, we have TWO threads at the same time with the same topic! Moderators are sleeeeeping probably... They should at least merge the threads, Or cancel both :D

That would be "racist censorship", I am ready to read about those racist Russians who, moreover, are censors :D
I think that by answering a question about racism toward non-whites with a question about racism toward whites is sort of brushing it under the carpet, is it not? It comes across as justifying one by citing something just as bad.

It's rather like a Russian challeneging me on Britain's colonial past and me responding by bringing up Stalin's treatment of the Ukrainians or Estonians. There is no link between the two, answering a question with a (confrontational) question does not answer the origional enquiry, and two wrongs don't make a right.

If you didn't want to answer the question, you should have started your own thread "why do we never talk about anti-white racism?" And don't tell me it would have been stopped, because you're statements here haven't been censored.

Guest
13-05-2008, 20:38
If you didn't want to answer the question, you should have started your own thread "why do we never talk about anti-white racism?" And don't tell me it would have been stopped, because you're statements here haven't been censored.


I will for sure never open such a stupid thread, as it is an open door for trolling, complaints from supposed "victims", etc etc.

What would you think if a man sentenced for being a pedophile, would say "the world is bad, there are some pedophiles" ?

Now just replace "pedophile" by "racist". The most racists are generally those who everywhere complain.

Oh, I read yesterday that french president told that frenchies must do their "auto-critic" about slavery in Africa. That is a big big big joke, as black africans themselves sell other black africans during years. They didn't need frenchies for this :)

Bah! S'est la vie!

Carbo
13-05-2008, 21:15
I will for sure never open such a stupid thread, as it is an open door for trolling, complaints from supposed "victims", etc etc.

What would you think if a man sentenced for being a pedophile, would say "the world is bad, there are some pedophiles" ?

Now just replace "pedophile" by "racist". The most racists are generally those who everywhere complain.

Oh, I read yesterday that french president told that frenchies must do their "auto-critic" about slavery in Africa. That is a big big big joke, as black africans themselves sell other black africans during years. They didn't need frenchies for this :)

Bah! S'est la vie!
Sometimes, Guest, you astound me. People shouldn't complain about Racism, because there are racists everywhere, right? And we shouldn't talk about white racists, because there are also black racists? In fact, the people who complain of racism are usually those who are the most racist, and they are little better than convicted pedophiles? And people the colonial powers should take no shame in their part in slavery and enslavement because the africans themselves also sold slaves?

I'm blown away.

vladimir_seroff
13-05-2008, 21:15
I do not understand why in the situation, when a Russian becomes a victim of a racially motivated crime, Russians should be afraid or feel ashamed to speak up about it. If this is what some on this thread were talking about, when complaining that, when the situation is revered, Russians get no coverage at all.

Unfortunately, there are certain subjects, the discussions of which will almost always result in someone getting offended, regardless how carefully we try to word our opinions, for another 1000 years. It doesn't mean that we could not try ot choose the forms that will reduce it to the minimum, but still talk about it.
Russians, as opposed to Americans do not have any collective guilt towards black people, for instance. Just try not to aggravate people with careless generalizations. It is actually very simple and easy.

The original question was whether people of color should avoid Russia. I hope not. I have been living in New York City for 17 years, and I DO TRY to avoid some parts of Harlem and the Bronx. It doesn’t mean that I would say to any white person to avoid New York City.




I will for sure never open such a stupid thread, as it is an open door for trolling, complaints from supposed "victims", etc etc.

What would you think if a man sentenced for being a pedophile, would say "the world is bad, there are some pedophiles" ?

Now just replace "pedophile" by "racist". The most racists are generally those who everywhere complain.

Oh, I read yesterday that french president told that frenchies must do their "auto-critic" about slavery in Africa. That is a big big big joke, as black africans themselves sell other black africans during years. They didn't need frenchies for this :)

Bah! S'est la vie!

vladimir_seroff
13-05-2008, 21:29
Sometimes, Guest, you astound me. People shouldn't complain about Racism, because there are racists everywhere, right? And we shouldn't talk about white racists, because there are also black racists? In fact, the people who complain of racism are usually those who are the most racist, and they are little better than convicted pedophiles? And people the colonial powers should take no shame in their part in slavery and enslavement because the africans themselves also sold slaves?

I'm blown away.

I think, ironically the carelessness that the Russian people exhibit with regards to the subject of race is the result of the complete absence of any collective guilt associated with it. It is hard for a Western person to put himself/herself in the shoes of a Russian person in this respect, becuase so much western history revolves around black slavery.

Guest
14-05-2008, 00:05
> becuase so much western history revolves around black slavery

LOL you must do your MEA-CULPA, Westerners :) You make me laugh with your "apologies" to everybody! Africans, vietnamese, jews, etc etc.

You feel so culprit of what your ancestors did, that YOU need to apologize? Really guys, that is pathetic!!!

ppc
15-05-2008, 21:02
Yes,
Also on a side note, is it true that in St. Petersburg and Moscow they are very racist against dark skinned poeple (black/brown skinned people) and will kill them or mug them or beat them up in public places such as bars and restaurants? Is this very common and should dark skinned people simply avoid Russia. . . Thoughts or opinions?

thanks
Jenny

As a matter of fact, we (the local people) are quite tolerant. No matter if you are black or white, local or foreigner. You risk when you come to a wrong place, but I dare say it's like everywhere. I can tell you this, because I had such feeling in certain districts of LA. There's the same proportion of black to white as white to black here in SPb.

I would not recommend foreigners (nor everyone;) to visit outskirts at night, and that's it. And DO NOT TRUST THE MEDIA, they will lie.

Carbo
19-05-2008, 14:55
> becuase so much western history revolves around black slavery

LOL you must do your MEA-CULPA, Westerners :) You make me laugh with your "apologies" to everybody! Africans, vietnamese, jews, etc etc.

You feel so culprit of what your ancestors did, that YOU need to apologize? Really guys, that is pathetic!!!
Just noticed this; thought the thread had died before here.

But what another absurd comment. In that case, Guest, why do you bother to celebrate Victory Day on May 9? Why do you feel the need to celebrate what your ancestors did?

Acoreana
19-05-2008, 17:46
Ok I'm adding my 3 and a half cents...but only because this story fits here so well!! So dont gang up and kill the messenger!! :mooooh:
Heard about this from a friend of mine in South Africa...There was a black lady 23 years old and a model. She was born in South Africa and was working for some international marketing company in Cape Town. She had been working for this company about 6 or 7 months, when along comes a (in her words) "the most beautiful Russian man I have ever seen! Beaming blue eyes and brownish/blonde hair. Tall and slim and always dressed perfectly." Naturally all the ladies working there were impressed by him and they all (white South Africans) tried to "jump on his band wagon." LOL!
However, he was not interrested in them, so of course Marinna (the only black lady around that branch of the company) felt she didnt have a chance.
But to her amazement, the Russian guy, Dimitri, started bringing her flowers, some little gifts he brought over with him from Russia, dating her, etc...
Now it had been nearly a year, and just about time for Dimitri to return to Russia as his training session was almost over.
Before he left, he gave Marinna one last gift. A stunning diamond engagement ring (I saw a photo of it, it's like the Rock of Gibraltar). Not a custom in Russia but you cant resist the S.A diamonds :-)
Who says long distance relationships never work?! Dimitri returned to Russia and Marinna stayed in S.A until another 8 months when she went to Russia and married with Dimitri. After the usual red tape (of old days, since this story is around 4 years old)...Marinna started working for a company in Russia.
After all, she stayed in Russia and married to her prince. Now after 4 years they are still married and have a lovely girl named Anya.
The End...
P.S. Dimitri is from St. Petersburg and they lived there until just recently moving to Moscow.

The moral of the story is: Discrimination/racism exsist in the minds of those who welcome misery. (Old Chinese or Japanese saying) :cheerleader:

Gypsy
19-05-2008, 18:06
Yes,


Also on a side note, is it true that in St. Petersburg and Moscow they are very racist against dark skinned poeple (black/brown skinned people) and will kill them or mug them or beat them up in public places such as bars and restaurants? Is this very common and should dark skinned people simply avoid Russia. . . Thoughts or opinions?

thanks
Jenny

Hugely racist yes. Worse in St Petes than Moscow. Check out the row last week when the manager of Zenit admitted that he couldn't sign black players because of the adverse reaction from the fans.

Acoreana
19-05-2008, 20:44
Hugely racist yes. Worse in St Petes than Moscow. Check out the row last week when the manager of Zenit admitted that he couldn't sign black players because of the adverse reaction from the fans.

So does that mean that average residents of St. Pete's are racist and not just the skinheads and other such groups???

xSnoofovich
19-05-2008, 20:50
Yes,


Also on a side note, is it true that in St. Petersburg and Moscow they are very racist against dark skinned poeple (black/brown skinned people) and will kill them or mug them or beat them up in public places such as bars and restaurants? Is this very common and should dark skinned people simply avoid Russia. . . Thoughts or opinions?

thanks
Jenny

its true that russians are racists ! THEY HATE WHITE PEOPLE !!!!!

vladimir_seroff
19-05-2008, 20:57
So does that mean that average residents of St. Pete's are racist and not just the skinheads and other such groups???

Racism is not a binary measure. That is, it is not just that it either exists, or it doesn't exist. Everything is in degrees, and in different areas of human interaction and in different parts of the world racism manifests itself differently.
The same Zenith fans, who may object to Zenith hiring players of African descent, may have many friends and/or colleagues, who are themselves of African descent.
At the same time, there may be Zenith fans, who would not care, if Zenith hired players of African descent, but would never befriend one.
There are infinite other variations.
In other words, there no point discussing this issue without specifically pointing out a particular area of human interaction and the degree to which racism manifests itself.

Gypsy
19-05-2008, 21:56
So does that mean that average residents of St. Pete's are racist and not just the skinheads and other such groups???

No of course not. But it is symptomatic.

I have been trying to find the article written by a black girl about the hellish time she suffered in St Pete's while there as a student, but failed so far. It was in a newspaper, and it was chilling.

It mirrors what a friend and ex-expat.ru member experienced here in Moscow, and we can all see it every day. Watch the security guards in a supermarket - see who they follow. It isn't at all subtle.

We had on the site here 18 months ago an ex member who was beaten up on the metro for being black, and the police then also beat him up when he wanted to press charges, he then had to sign a waiver saying that HE was at fault before he was allowed to leave the police station.

Acoreana
19-05-2008, 23:46
No of course not. But it is symptomatic.

I have been trying to find the article written by a black girl about the hellish time she suffered in St Pete's while there as a student, but failed so far. It was in a newspaper, and it was chilling.

It mirrors what a friend and ex-expat.ru member experienced here in Moscow, and we can all see it every day. Watch the security guards in a supermarket - see who they follow. It isn't at all subtle.

We had on the site here 18 months ago an ex member who was beaten up on the metro for being black, and the police then also beat him up when he wanted to press charges, he then had to sign a waiver saying that HE was at fault before he was allowed to leave the police station.

Yikes! That is pretty unsettling...:jawdrop:

Acoreana
20-05-2008, 03:05
its true that russians are racists ! THEY HATE WHITE PEOPLE !!!!!

LOL :D
Funny how in the west "white" people call themselves "caucasian" but in Russia, a caucasian is not this. They call them Anglo and/or Saxon...But on most legal documents that require you list your ethnicity it says White/Caucasian instead of White/Anglo Saxon...:rules:
In Russia, I guess white westerners had better be careful not to call themselves caucasian then huh??? or is there a difference somewhere I missed?!

vladimir_seroff
20-05-2008, 07:45
I am not a Leninist by any means, almost the opposite. All I am trying to say by the following quote from Lenin's article "The Question of Nationalities or Autonomization" is that, if are stuck with Lenin's corpse in the middle of Red Square, we might as well try to make the best of it.

"... A distinction must necessarily be made between the nationalism of an oppressor nation and that of an oppressed nation, the nationalism of a big nation and that of a small nation.

In respect of the second kind of nationalism, we – nationals of a big nation – have nearly always been guilty in historic practice of an infinite number of cases of violence; furthermore, we commit violence and insult an infinite number of times without noticing it.

That is why internationalism on the part of oppressors or ‘great’ nations, as they are called (though they are great only in their violence, only great as bullies) must consist not only in the observance of the formal equality of nations but even in an inequality of the oppressor nation, the great nation, that must make up for the inequality which obtains in actual practice."

TGP
20-05-2008, 14:14
Yesterday TV reported a fight between a black guy (from somewhere in Africa) and a tadjik. They did not understand each other...

What is an act of racism? If yes, who's a victim?

Guest
20-05-2008, 15:41
Yesterday TV reported a fight between a black guy (from somewhere in Africa) and a tadjik. They did not understand each other...

What is an act of racism? If yes, who's a victim?


The victims are both the tadjik and the african, and the culprit is, collectively, Russians, because they are racists and so create a racist atmosphere in Russia that makes such things possible. Shame on racist Russians!

vladimir_seroff
20-05-2008, 16:10
Yesterday TV reported a fight between a black guy (from somewhere in Africa) and a tadjik. They did not understand each other...

What is an act of racism? If yes, who's a victim?

Either, both or neither of them could be driven by racism. But I do not understand the point you are trying to make.

Is it that not every action of every human being is driven by racism? I do not think anyone would argue with that.

Is it that sometimes it is impossible to determine whether someone's actions to any extent are driven by racism, or not? It would be hard to argue with that, too.

Is it supposed to somehow effect anyone's perception of the level of racism that exists in Russia in general, or in St. Petersburg in particular?

Maybe you are right in your insistence that there is as much racism in Russia as anywhere else in the world, or even less of it. But it doesn't make any instance of it in Russia any less deserving attention and adequate response.

I am definitely not an authority on the subject. It would be much easier for me to comment on racism in the USA, where there is definitely more of it than you can read about in newspapers, or see on TV.

I think it is important to remember though that unsubstantiated defense of anything is very harmful to one's position, because it diminishes the value of substantiated defense. It is like in the story about a boy crying wolf. When every criticism is being rejected, as unfounded, people stop taking protestations seriously.

Carbo
20-05-2008, 17:43
Yesterday TV reported a fight between a black guy (from somewhere in Africa) and a tadjik. They did not understand each other...

What is an act of racism? If yes, who's a victim?
Errrrr..what? I don't younderstand your point, and I'm not sure you understand The point

Gypsy
20-05-2008, 17:51
Yesterday TV reported a fight between a black guy (from somewhere in Africa) and a tadjik. They did not understand each other...

What is an act of racism? If yes, who's a victim?

What is this supposed to mean?

Guest
20-05-2008, 19:54
What is this supposed to mean?


LOL, Gypsy-TPV (*) doesn't even understand the question, how can he reply? Please TGP explain him :D


(*) The Perpetual Victim (©)

MissAnnElk
20-05-2008, 20:07
Yesterday TV reported a fight between a black guy (from somewhere in Africa) and a tadjik. They did not understand each other...

What is an act of racism? If yes, who's a victim?

Pul-eaz. Who can begin to speculate on this?

turkgida
20-05-2008, 20:08
guest i didn't get the point either :question:
so far, 4 (carbo, gypsy, vladimir & me) out of 5 responders didn't understand TGP's point. can you enlighten us pls? :sunny:

self-edit: 5 out of 6, including MAE now.

vladimir_seroff
20-05-2008, 20:15
I think the best way to explain it is by suggesting an analogy.
Let's imagine the conflict occurred between a Tibetan and an Abkhazian.
It would be hard to overestimate the tremendous value such an event would have for further discussions of the historical struggles of both regions for their independence.

>>>>> I am being facetious here. <<<<<




LOL, Gypsy-TPV (*) doesn't even understand the question, how can he reply? Please TGP explain him :D


(*) The Perpetual Victim (©)

vladimir_seroff
20-05-2008, 20:50
I will try to dissect the post the best way I can.
The main premise of the post is that most people have a tendency to look for (or even to immediately jump to conclusions about) racial motives behind any conflict involving two parties, one of which is a representative of a national or racial minority with history of being discriminated against. The reflex nature of such reaction was supposed to result in sudden confusion of some opponents, those who would not immediately realize that their reflex requires another piece of information for it to be triggered - the other party to the conflict must not satisfy the same criterion.
The hope, I think, was that some opponents would not be able to hide their confusion. This basically would illustrate that those opponents think in terms of templates, which is precisely the way of thinking that leads to racism.
The problem with this tactical trick is that even my 8 years old daughter would probably not fall for it.




Yesterday TV reported a fight between a black guy (from somewhere in Africa) and a tadjik. They did not understand each other...

What is an act of racism? If yes, who's a victim?

Guest
20-05-2008, 20:57
guest i didn't get the point either :question:
so far, 4 (carbo, gypsy, vladimir & me) out of 5 responders didn't understand TGP's point. can you enlighten us pls? :sunny:

self-edit: 5 out of 6, including MAE now.



Seems that the hot weather makes brains working sloooowly :)

TGP's post is IRONIC, yes, yes. She means "Look, every time a 'non white' is attacked in Russia, some guys shout at a racism attack".

So she kindly asks by this example who must we (or YOU, lovely expats always ready to help us, poooooor racist Russians), WHO was the racist.

Any reply will be appreciated to this terrible question, thank you inadvance, we sooo much need your kind help :snoring:

MissAnnElk
20-05-2008, 21:02
TGP's post is IRONIC, yes, yes. She means "Look, every time a 'non white' is attacked in Russia, some guys shout at a racism attack".

So she kindly asks by this example who must we (or YOU, lovely expats always ready to help us, poooooor racist Russians), WHO was the racist.

Any reply will be appreciated to this terrible question, thank you inadvance, we sooo much need your kind help :snoring:

Knock it off. There's nothing poor about you. We all know it.

TGP
20-05-2008, 22:39
Seems that the hot weather makes brains working sloooowly :)

TGP's post is IRONIC, yes, yes. She means "Look, every time a 'non white' is attacked in Russia, some guys shout at a racism attack".

So she kindly asks by this example who must we (or YOU, lovely expats always ready to help us, poooooor racist Russians), WHO was the racist.

Any reply will be appreciated to this terrible question, thank you inadvance, we sooo much need your kind help :snoring:

Exactly.

Guest
20-05-2008, 23:51
Exactly.


What did I win?

Carbo
21-05-2008, 00:15
What did I win?

I think the point that Guest and whoever else is on his side are trying to make is that there is no such thing as racist attacks, simply attacks that happen to be from one race to another, but are in no way shape or form motivated by any type of prejudice.

Of course, they argue, racism exists, but nowhere near as much as it's made out, and for the most part it's just a figment of our snotty nosed, liberal, western minds; or, worse, just another tool used to bad-mouth the hated Russian Federation.

In fact, often, the racists are those who are attacked themselves, who are willing to put a racial tag on what was a random attack, or any other kind of misfortune which happens to befall them.

All of which is, of course, horse****

vladimir_seroff
21-05-2008, 00:44
I do not think that Guest et al have committed to anything like that. It is more subtle than that. What they are saying is that they reserve the right to subject any claim that a particular attack was racially motivated to a reasonable doubt.
My questions to Guest et al will be
1) Has there been a single racially motivated attack that was determined to be such by means other than by extracting an admission from the attackers?
2) If the answer to the previous question is "yes", then how was it determined?
And finally the question to everyone:
How is it possible to tell whether an attack is racially motivated or not? Can anyone at least give some real life examples (preferably from Russian life)?
Without these answers it would be difficult to continue a constructive discussion.



I think the point that Guest and whoever else is on his side are trying to make is that there is no such thing as racist attacks, simply attacks that happen to be from one race to another, but are in no way shape or form motivated by any type of prejudice.

Of course, they argue, racism exists, but nowhere near as much as it's made out, and for the most part it's just a figment of our snotty nosed, liberal, western minds; or, worse, just another tool used to bad-mouth the hated Russian Federation.

In fact, often, the racists are those who are attacked themselves, who are willing to put a racial tag on what was a random attack, or any other kind of misfortune which happens to befall them.

All of which is, of course, horse****

Guest
21-05-2008, 02:00
To make shut up a little those here who say that the Russian gov lets tacism grow in Russia: Last year a bomb exploded at the market near the metro station Tsherkizovskaya. The victims were citizens from the Kavkaz and Asia.
Some days ago the culprits, all "white" Russians, were severly sentenced by a Moscow district Court, AND they admitted their "racist motivations".

> I think the point that Guest and whoever else is on his side are trying to make is that there is no such thing as racist attacks

I just say that hysteria of a few guys here shouting for racism every time a "non white" is attacked, is more than stupid.

"White Russians" are more clever: Every time a guy from the Kavkaz uses violence against a Russian to robe him, the Russian does not shout at a RACIST crime. But as I already told many times, racism works only in ONE side.

So your (general) hysteria about racist crimes is completely ridiculous.

> Without these answers it would be difficult to continue a constructive discussion.

WHO needs a "constructive discussion"? What do you mean by "constructive"? To admit that there are racists, there is racism? No need to discuss, everybody knows it. Now, if some want to conclude that Russians are racists, they are free to do so, we are not racist even against idiots :)

vladimir_seroff
21-05-2008, 07:00
constructive - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/constructive)
(I picked definition # 3)
No need to get agitated. You think that the only way to know that an attack was a racist one is to have the attackers admit to it. So, if they decide not to admit to it, there is no way to know. If that is your answer, then that is your answer. I haven’t seen any other answers from anyone.
People have a natural right to form opinions based on whatever information is available to them and to exchange information to try to influence opinions of others.
Obviously, some on this forum are of the opinion that racism in Russia is on the rise, and may already present a serious problem. Others think that even though it exists, it cannot be viewed as a serious problem, due to the relative infrequency of its manifestations.
There are also those, who think that public opinion is prejudiced against ethnic Russians in that it never assumes that a crime committed against a Russian by a non-Russian is racially motivated, whereas it always assumes so in the opposite situation. This makes public opinion racist anti-Russian according to them.
Now, there are those who think that, even if public opinion is prejudiced against Russians, Russians should not feel offended, because they are a majority, and it should be easy for them to tolerate this injustice.
We were able to establish all of the above due to the fact that for the most part the discussion has been constructive.
I would have to agree with Guest on that, unless attackers admit to their racist motives, in the majority of cases it is left up to each individual to decide on it. This, in turn, makes it very hard to substantiate any arguments.
I remember reading an article some time ago that complained about some juries in Russia having acquitted racial killers. I remember wondering how they knew the killings were racial.
It would have been naïve to expect to reach any type of consensus on the subject, but I am sure the exchange of information has been very useful to all participants.
Whatever is the case, it is absolutely absurd to suggest that the Russian government in any way is allowing the racism to grow. Is the Russian government doing it so that all proletariat would not be able to unite? Or would it be just because of its innate maliciousness?
And yet, again, regardless of how it is, it never hurts to educate people about racism.


To make shut up a little those here who say that the Russian gov lets tacism grow in Russia: Last year a bomb exploded at the market near the metro station Tsherkizovskaya. The victims were citizens from the Kavkaz and Asia.
Some days ago the culprits, all "white" Russians, were severly sentenced by a Moscow district Court, AND they admitted their "racist motivations".

> I think the point that Guest and whoever else is on his side are trying to make is that there is no such thing as racist attacks

I just say that hysteria of a few guys here shouting for racism every time a "non white" is attacked, is more than stupid.

"White Russians" are more clever: Every time a guy from the Kavkaz uses violence against a Russian to robe him, the Russian does not shout at a RACIST crime. But as I already told many times, racism works only in ONE side.

So your (general) hysteria about racist crimes is completely ridiculous.

> Without these answers it would be difficult to continue a constructive discussion.

WHO needs a "constructive discussion"? What do you mean by "constructive"? To admit that there are racists, there is racism? No need to discuss, everybody knows it. Now, if some want to conclude that Russians are racists, they are free to do so, we are not racist even against idiots :)

TGP
21-05-2008, 11:12
Oh, boy. I never thought that this simple question would provoke such a serious deep research of the matter with even deeper conclusions.

jumatre
21-05-2008, 11:34
Oh, boy. I never thought that this simple question would provoke such a serious deep research of the matter with even deeper conclusions.

This is exactly the reason why I did not want to post on this thread. Racism is everywhere. Say one country in which there is no racism (acut or latent). But it is easy to say:

- Russia is corrupt
- Russia is dirty
- Russia is racist
- Russia is agressive
- Russian women are cheap prostitutes
- Russian men are gangsters
- Russians are genuine lazy
- Russians are alcoholists

Since I am visiting regularly this site I have seen only 3 - 4 threads started by foreigners / expats with a positive attitute towards this country.

Yes, there is racism in Russia (but not all russians are racists)
Read carefully the international news (see for example Southafrica...
22 people died on racist motivated attacks during the last 10 days (stabbed, shot, burned alive, etc.,). But this is blacks against blacks and it seems not to count, and there is also Mandela and his gang, against whom nobody can say a single word because this would be racism.
There are the attacks in Italy (Napoli) of the last days against gipsys, burning down their houses and hunting them until they live the country. Here we dont want to say anything because Italy is such a beautiful, modern and cultural european country. The minister-president of Italy is a confessed racist, but "he is so funny", so tipical italian that we must forgive him his verbal atrocities.
There is Spain, where 1 - 2 times per week dozens of people die trying to cross the wet border into the Promised Land, but we dont let them in because they are non whites (in my opinion it is also racism to close the door to the poor and needed).
There is France with their yearly riots in the suburbs, burning cars and shops. But what can we say here... France, La Grande Nation... the country of Voltaire, Zola, (LePen) and so many other great and cultured people.
There is USA, there is Chile (were blacks are not allowed to work in guvernamental offices), there is Estonia (the place were Russia and russian citizens are soooo loved), there is Japan, with its hate to anything Gaijin...

No. it is Russia - the Evil. Where everyday people are assaulted because of their colour of skin. Where daily atrocities against other races are done...

Come on, please.

I think that there are too many professional victims running around.

RRM
21-05-2008, 11:55
I dont think Russians are Racists at all. I have been in a few cities except St. Petersburg and never experienced it myself. Only this time I am more careful after the fact that I have been told to do so. I better be safe than sorry that is why I like to keep a higher ground and play it safe.
if Russians are racists how come I have so many friends, how come I have family here and how come I play football in the evening in the park next to me with all Russians (they were the ones who invited me to play). At work, I have not experienced this as well.
But as there are the organized groups like in every other place, Russia also has some of these clubs with disturbed youth. These youth as per the videos I have seen are brainwashed and train in Urban fighting in some parts of Moscow. After seeing such videos I am more careful (please dont get defensive at this) but I do enjoy being here.

MissAnnElk
21-05-2008, 12:09
This is exactly the reason why I did not want to post on this thread. Racism is everywhere. Say one country in which there is no racism (acut or latent). But it is easy to say:

- Russia is corrupt
- Russia is dirty
- Russia is racist
- Russia is agressive
- Russian women are cheap prostitutes
- Russian men are gangsters
- Russians are genuine lazy
- Russians are alcoholists

Since I am visiting regularly this site I have seen only 3 - 4 threads started by foreigners / expats with a positive attitute towards this country.

...

No. it is Russia - the Evil. Where everyday people are assaulted because of their colour of skin. Where daily atrocities against other races are done...

Come on, please.

I think that there are too many professional victims running around.

Jumatre, I honestly don't believe that the majority of us foreigners on this forum believe such negative things about Russia or any foreign country.

I think we use the forum as a place to talk about these things . . . but that is because it is supposed to be a safe place to ask, vent, wonder, listen, and even grumble from time to time. I know you know this, but it is hard work to live outside one's culture, and it can be overwhelming. We need each other to vent to from time to time so that we can wind up our souls, as it were, and go back out there and experience Russia to its fullest.

I've seen wonderful and horrible things since I've been here. Mostly I have experienced kindness from Russians. I would guess this is true for most of the others on the forum.

As many have said, it we truly hated it here that much, we would cut our losses and leave.

jumatre
21-05-2008, 12:14
I dont think Russians are Racists at all. I have been in a few cities except St. Petersburg and never experienced it myself. Only this time I am more careful after the fact that I have been told to do so. I better be safe than sorry that is why I like to keep a higher ground and play it safe.
if Russians are racists how come I have so many friends, how come I have family here and how come I play football in the evening in the park next to me with all Russians (they were the ones who invited me to play). At work, I have not experienced this as well.
But as there are the organized groups like in every other place, Russia also has some of these clubs with disturbed youth. These youth as per the videos I have seen are brainwashed and train in Urban fighting in some parts of Moscow. After seeing such videos I am more careful (please dont get defensive at this) but I do enjoy being here.

I completely agree with you being careful. I am careful here, same as I am in Spain or Germany (maybe I feel in Moscow safer then in most of the Westeuropean countries, due to the higher presence of militzia on the streets). There are organized groups, but there are more organized groups in other countries, defending their football club, their motherland, their social attitute or whatever.

But this is no answer to my coment. For example I have just seen one of your threads: What makes you most afraid in Russia... very embarrassing... This is one more proof of your negative attitude. Why you dont open a thread about the things you like more in this country? because your subconscience doesnt admit positive things here?

You who are always so positive with other foreigners...

But never mind. We are what we are and we are a product of our education, culture or experiences. I did not have a single bad experience in Russia and therefore very positive. Maybe things will change if experiences change? I dont know. But even then I would try to see this country positive.

jumatre
21-05-2008, 12:27
Jumatre, I honestly don't believe that the majority of us foreigners on this forum believe such negative things about Russia or any foreign country.

I think we use the forum as a place to talk about these things . . . but that is because it is supposed to be a safe place to ask, vent, wonder, listen, and even grumble from time to time. I know you know this, but it is hard work to live outside one's culture, and it can be overwhelming. We need each other to vent to from time to time so that we can wind up our souls, as it were, and go back out there and experience Russia to its fullest.

I've seen wonderful and horrible things since I've been here. Mostly I have experienced kindness from Russians. I would guess this is true for most of the others on the forum.

As many have said, it we truly hated it here that much, we would cut our losses and leave.

I did not say that ALL expats hate Russia. I did not write that ALL foreigners dont like russians. I wrote that the general attitude here (in expat.ru) is negative. That's all. Check the threads related with Russia and look how many positive and negative themes are exposed. And then have a look at the coments, and see where the reactions (positive or negative) come from.

Nevertheless, I think (and hope) that YOU know what I mean. It is not easy to make it understandable to everybody. My "quijotesque" attitude is part of my culture, I dont like hypocrites and social ghettos. I am not here to hide in the foreigners world, but to integrate myself into this culture.

Sometimes I read some of these threads and think how I would react if the same threads would be exposed in Spain in an expats website. I would react very angry on them. People who are not willed to integrate in my culture speaking bad nearly everything about my country...

But this is another story... Hope to see you next week in the Voodoo Lounge and speak about it (Mrs. Jumatre is also looking forward to see you and Mr. Elk).

Guest
21-05-2008, 12:33
Since I am visiting regularly this site I have seen only 3 - 4 threads started by foreigners / expats with a positive attitute towards this country.

Right, GOOD expats are not so many here :(

Most of those who post here are always ready to give lessons of all, they are soooo clever and soooo kind! What would Russia become without them :thumbdwn:

RRM
21-05-2008, 12:38
Deviation of subject Jumatre because you asked me....
Are we afraid to speak our opinions on forums ? I dont back anyone on this forum, I only express my views. It can be aligned with someones views and many times its not. Thats why we have a forum. We are all a handful of people from various backgrounds and we dont even represent our own countries fully. What I say here does not represent the people of where I come from or my government etc. It is my individual words based on what I see and what I experienced. Conditioning you may call it but we all are conditioned.
My family here dont agree with many things that are mentioned by the Russians on this website. They have never traveled outside of Russia except military posting in Berlin and exhange student in Berlin during the soviet days. And they are patriotic themselves. I have the most wonderful debates with them and we enjoy it.
My point is that I dont consider this forum to be the end all picture of any country or any type of people. There are others who take it very personal and extend it over to attacks. I handle defeat and critisism as a grown up.
You have not read my threads very carefully probably.




But this is no answer to my coment. For example I have just seen one of your threads: What makes you most afraid in Russia... very embarrassing... This is one more proof of your negative attitude. Why you dont open a thread about the things you like more in this country? because your subconscience doesnt admit positive things here?

You who are always so positive with other foreigners...

jumatre
21-05-2008, 12:49
My point is that I dont consider this forum to be the end all picture of any country or any type of people. There are others who take it very personal and extend it over to attacks. I handle defeat and critisism as a grown up.
You have not read my threads very carefully probably.

Sorry, I dont understand the answer.

It seems to me that you are (again) changing your opinion. I have read your threads (maybe not carefully enough), and see always the same opinion... But again this might be my mistake.
I see that we are not able to understand. This thread is about racism. But it is also about the attitude of some foreigners towards Russia and russians - which I also do call racism, but am sure that I am again wrong -

As I comented some days ago, the only (racist motivated?) situation I saw in Russia was the fight between pakistanis and indians on Den Pobedy, but this was surely originated by the latent racism of russians towards coloured people...

RRM
21-05-2008, 12:54
In my previous threads on Racism, I said the same thing as I did here which is that I like to be careful and be on a higher ground. I dont travel in Metro in the night etc etc. But did I ever say Russians are racists anywhere ?


Sorry, I dont understand the answer.

It seems to me that you are (again) changing your opinion. I have read your threads (maybe not carefully enough), and see always the same opinion... But again this might be my mistake.
I see that we are not able to understand. This thread is about racism. But it is also about the attitude of some foreigners towards Russia and russians - which I also do call racism, but am sure that I am again wrong -

As I comented some days ago, the only (racist motivated?) situation I saw in Russia was the fight between pakistanis and indians on Den Pobedy, but this was surely originated by the latent racism of russians towards coloured people...

jumatre
21-05-2008, 12:59
In my previous threads on Racism, I said the same thing as I did here which is that I like to be careful and be on a higher ground. I dont travel in Metro in the night etc etc. But did I ever say Russians are racists anywhere ?

If you did not say, why are you reacting??????? I know you take care... and I also never wrote that russians are racist.

RRM
21-05-2008, 13:03
Because you said I am changing my opinion.

If you did not say, why are you reacting??????? I know you take care... and I also never wrote that russians are racist.

jumatre
21-05-2008, 13:08
Because you said I am changing my opinion.

And this is true - just show me one thread in which you write positive and convinced something essential about russia and the russians. Yes, your family is russian (this is what I understood) - They dont think like the russians in expat.ru (how do you know what ALL russians in expat.ru think?)... but his has nothing to to with the thread about rassist, bad russians...

RRM
21-05-2008, 13:12
The opinions in some of these discussions are not the same as what I get at home. This is undertandable. And their way of debating is a lot different.

Yes, your family is russian (this is what I understood) - They dont think like the russians in expat.ru (how do you know what ALL russians in expat.ru think?)... but his has nothing to to with the thread about rassist, bad russians...

TGP
21-05-2008, 19:30
Jumatre, I honestly don't believe that the majority of us foreigners on this forum believe such negative things about Russia or any foreign country.

I think we use the forum as a place to talk about these things . . . but that is because it is supposed to be a safe place to ask, vent, wonder, listen, and even grumble from time to time. I know you know this, but it is hard work to live outside one's culture, and it can be overwhelming. We need each other to vent to from time to time so that we can wind up our souls, as it were, and go back out there and experience Russia to its fullest.

I've seen wonderful and horrible things since I've been here. Mostly I have experienced kindness from Russians. I would guess this is true for most of the others on the forum.

As many have said, it we truly hated it here that much, we would cut our losses and leave.

I know , this is hijacking, but I am curious to know what happened to that guy who was trying to explain something to you when you were waiting for your kids near the school? Did you manage to find out what he was talking about? Don't give details, just say if it was something good or bad.

MissAnnElk
21-05-2008, 19:37
I know , this is hijacking, but I am curious to know what happened to that guy who was trying to explain something to you when you were waiting for your kids near the school? Did you manage to find out what he was talking about? Don't give details, just say if it was something good or bad.

He's somebody's driver. He's apparently sweet on me. He's stopped driving by me slowly with all the windows down and loud romantic music like Andrea Boccelli playing, but he still looks at me a lot. He's harmless.

MissAnnElk
21-05-2008, 19:46
Sometimes I read some of these threads and think how I would react if the same threads would be exposed in Spain in an expats website. I would react very angry on them. People who are not willed to integrate in my culture speaking bad nearly everything about my country....

I love hearing this stuff about my country . . . I think it is fascinating what people don't like or don't understand or even hate about my country. I don't take it personally at all. What I find is that when I am with foreigners in the US or foreign friends who have just returned from the US, I always ask "What did you like?" and I get a lot of nice answers.

Then I ask, "What did you NOT like?" And I get very uncomfortable silence. No one wants to offend me, but I can tell by the silence that, of course! they commented on SOMETHING during their time in the US. I usually have to push, a lot, to get them to come out with it. And then we talk about it.

Sometimes I can clarify why we behave the way we do. Sometimes I agree with them about what they didn't like. Sometimes I see that they misunderstood something.

But I think it is really important to have this conversation. It can be a little uncomfortable, but if they are my friends, we can talk.

I consider this doing my bit to educate the world the Americans are diverse, complex, interesting, generally kind-hearted people who want the same things most people in the world do: a better life for their kids.

And micro breweries.:beerbros:

MissAnnElk
21-05-2008, 19:48
Jumatre: you and RRM need to go out for a few beers. You have a lot more in common than is evident from this forum.

jumatre
21-05-2008, 20:19
Jumatre: you and RRM need to go out for a few beers. You have a lot more in common than is evident from this forum.

Better red wine... Mrs. jumatre has deleted beer from my diet -n next wednesday could be a good chance :applause::11581::10518:

MissAnnElk
21-05-2008, 20:21
Better red wine... Mrs. jumatre has deleted beer from my diet -n next wednesday could be a good chance :applause::11581::10518:

Si. Wine is better. But you know what I mean.

Assuming I have a babysitter, we will be there next Wednesday, too.

jumatre
21-05-2008, 20:40
Si. Wine is better. But you know what I mean.

Assuming I have a babysitter, we will be there next Wednesday, too.

Claro que si

RRM
21-05-2008, 21:06
Wednesday, thursday is a work day, how do you guys do it.

jumatre
21-05-2008, 21:46
Wednesday, thursday is a work day, how do you guys do it.

It is from 8:00 till 10:00 pm and a wine testing only...

RRM
21-05-2008, 22:17
Taste but dont swallow.


It is from 8:00 till 10:00 pm and a wine testing only...

jumatre
21-05-2008, 23:03
Taste but dont swallow.

testing AND swallowing. No prisoners. No surrender.

MissAnnElk
21-05-2008, 23:32
We are professionals.

Don't try this at home.

TGP
22-05-2008, 12:48
He's somebody's driver. He's apparently sweet on me. He's stopped driving by me slowly with all the windows down and loud romantic music like Andrea Boccelli playing, but he still looks at me a lot. He's harmless.


:)

Gypsy
22-05-2008, 14:36
This is exactly the reason why I did not want to post on this thread. Racism is everywhere. Say one country in which there is no racism (acut or latent). Why? It is irrelevant whether another country is racist or not. This discussion is about Russia - as befits a thread on a Russian Expat site.
But it is easy to say:

- Russia is corrupt - absolutely no question.
- Russia is dirty- as above
- Russia is racist - Definitely
- Russia is agressive - Nope
- Russian women are cheap prostitutes- Rubbish
- Russian men are gangsters - Rubbish
- Russians are genuine lazy - the men are, yes
- Russians are alcoholists - don't know.


Since I am visiting regularly this site I have seen only 3 - 4 threads started by foreigners / expats with a positive attitute towards this country.

Yes, there is racism in Russia (but not all russians are racists)

The rest of your post is nonsense. Why are you on an expat site in Russia if not to discuss what you see and hear around you in Russia...

Hopefully Russians reading what foreigners think will make them in turn consider whether the criticism is fair and whether they should be pushing their politicians to do something about it.

Why you would want to bury your head in the sand and pretend everything in russia is wonderful, I don't know.

There is nothing wrong with criticism. It is not the same thing as insult.




No. it is Russia - the Evil. Where everyday people are assaulted because of their colour of skin. Where daily atrocities against other races are done...

Come on, please.

I think that there are too many professional victims running around.

Come on exactly. It is not a competition, "if you criticise Russia we will criticise your country." That is just pathetic.

And to bring in events in south africa is just fatuous. Of course the violence there isn't racial but it is tribal.

But so what?

What has it got to do with the original question - is Russia racist?



This is an expat web-site designed for expats living in Russia. Part of its whole purpose is to discuss these issues - pretending they don't exist helps no one.

jumatre
22-05-2008, 15:02
Why? It is irrelevant whether another country is racist or not. This discussion is about Russia - as befits a thread on a Russian Expat site.

The rest of your post is nonsense. Why are you on an expat site in Russia if not to discuss what you see and hear around you in Russia...

Hopefully Russians reading what foreigners think will make them in turn consider whether the criticism is fair and whether they should be pushing their politicians to do something about it.

Why you would want to bury your head in the sand and pretend everything in russia is wonderful, I don't know.

There is nothing wrong with criticism. It is not the same thing as insult.




Come on exactly. It is not a competition, "if you criticise Russia we will criticise your country." That is just pathetic.

And to bring in events in south africa is just fatuous. Of course the violence there isn't racial but it is tribal.

But so what?

What has it got to do with the original question - is Russia racist?



This is an expat web-site designed for expats living in Russia. Part of its whole purpose is to discuss these issues - pretending they don't exist helps no one.
I undertood that this site is not only for expats, but also for russians and people living out of this country... This site is about Russia, and not about expats.

So crisis between african countries are tribal motivated, and when it is in Europe it is racism?

One thing is constructive critic, and a very different thing is what you are doing: negative, destructive critic - Russians dont like to hear from you intelligent expats how bad their country is. I think that there must be for you at least one positive side in this country besides expats bars, cheap girls and high salaries.

Russian men are lazy? thanks for confirming this prejudice. At least the male russian members of this site will be happy to learn definitely what you think about them (and of course this is not racism towards russians from your side - it is tribal).

I am on an expat site to discuss what I see and feel about Russia, but definitely not to attack the country with never ending negative comments, and trying to make russians feel unconfortable with them - and of course not to teach the russians how they should behave and rule their country. I am sure they know their own country and specifics better then you do.

And finally, tell you that of course it is relevant if other countries are racist or not... If racism is latent in all countries, why not also in Russia? what does make Russia so different to other countries? If your promised land France is one of the leading countries in racist motivated revolts year by year, why do you expect Russia to be different? You came to Russia expecting a paradise and are frustrated because you found a normal country? Come on, go back to your expat bar and continue spitting at this country. You will be surely in best company.

Guest
22-05-2008, 15:13
> Come on, go back to your expat bar and continue spitting at this country. You will be surely in best company.

LOL... Sad that we are not allowed to post photos of other guys here, because I have a great one about this :))))

jumatre
22-05-2008, 16:30
> Come on, go back to your expat bar and continue spitting at this country. You will be surely in best company.

LOL... Sad that we are not allowed to post photos of other guys here, because I have a great one about this :))))

just pm - if not I pm you my email adress - just for fun...

Sidney Bliss
22-05-2008, 16:48
just pm - if not I pm you my email adress - just for fun...


Ooh, you naughty b*tches :D

Gypsy
22-05-2008, 19:18
I undertood that this site is not only for expats, but also for russians and people living out of this country... This site is about Russia, and not about expats. Well I suggest they change the title and advertising for the site then.


So crisis between african countries are tribal motivated, and when it is in Europe it is racism? Pathetic, fatuous and dishonest. Why did you write this?It bears no relation at all to what I wrote. To remind you - YOU wrote that no-one was calling the killings in South Africa racist. I said of course not because they are tribal - how could they possibly be racist. Now you introduce "between african countries" instead of discussing South Africa which you initially wrote. So I repeat, dishonest because you changed the subject afterwards, fatuous because by definition it could not be racist, and pathetic,because it is irrelevant to a discussion on racism in Russia.


One thing is constructive critic, and a very different thing is what you are doing: negative, destructive critic - Russians dont like to hear from you intelligent expats how bad their country is. I see, it is constructive criticism if you agree with it. Just so that I know.
I think that there must be for you at least one positive side in this country besides expats bars, cheap girls and high salaries. Be very careful my friend you are moving into defamation territory here. You know nothing about me so I think you should refrain from personal insults.


Russian men are lazy? thanks for confirming this prejudice. At least the male russian members of this site will be happy to learn definitely what you think about them (and of course this is not racism towards russians from your side - it is tribal). Another dishonest response, because as you are well aware I specifically excluded Russian women.The question was "are Russians lazy" My answer, "the men are". The women are among the hardest working I have seen anywhere. And the hardest working person I have seen anywhere in 30 years is a russian woman. But you are not interested in that you would rather slander me than deal with what I actually wrote.

You asked the qusetion- I answered based on the 2 years I have been working here. And Yes, the vast majority of russian men I have encountered have been very lazy indeed. It is my experience. But obviously I know now I should lie.

The little dig at the end about "tribal" which I assume you think is funny just shows you up.

I am on an expat site to discuss what I see and feel about Russia, but definitely not to attack the country with never ending negative comments, and trying to make russians feel unconfortable with them - and of course not to teach the russians how they should behave and rule their country. I am sure they know their own country and specifics better then you do. I can do no better than refer you to MissAnnElk's post a page earlier. if you do not discuss these things how will they ever change?

I have never attacked Russia - as your little questionnaire proves. I answered Yes to 3 of the criticisms, No to 3, Don't Know to one and one was a 50:50 split women and men.

But don't worry I know now that I must deny all and every criticism of Russia from now on.

Why incidentally are they so precious about criticism - you can criticise France all you like, I don't care. I'll deal with it based on whether I think it true or not. If it is true and I hadn't considered it before I've learned something and I'll try and do something about it.

And finally, tell you that of course it is relevant if other countries are racist or not... If racism is latent in all countries, why not also in Russia? what does make Russia so different to other countries? If your promised land France is one of the leading countries in racist motivated revolts year by year, why do you expect Russia to be different? Who says I did come here expecting it to be different? Again your post is completely dishonest,you are putting words into my mouth.
You came to Russia expecting a paradise and are frustrated because you found a normal country? Come on, go back to your expat bar and continue spitting at this country. You will be surely in best company. Doing it again, pure dishonesty. Where have I ever said that I came here expecting anything remotely resembling a paradise? If you can show me one post then I will apologise, in the absence of that you owe me a huge apology for the tissue of lies you have printed about me above.

J -your post bears no relation at all to what I posted.

Guest
22-05-2008, 19:27
I answered based on the 2 years I have been working here. And Yes, the vast majority of russian men I have encountered have been very lazy indeed.


LOL LOL LOL!

From an African, reading that Russians are lazy.... GREAT JOKE!!! I lived a few years in black Africa, and REALLY, THERE you meet LAZY (and even more) people!

(And there is no more racism in saying this than in saying what Gypsy said, it is just the same!)

Your extensive 2 years experience, hum... Maybe that you met only lazy people... Attraction of the same kind of people, you know this kind of thing...

jumatre
22-05-2008, 20:04
Dear gipsy,

I thought we had cleared some days ago (on pm) some of the points we are discussing again, but I am wrong. I must apologize because I thought you understood, but you did not. Our argumentation is too far away from each other.
Is it a difamation to say that many (most?) expats are nearly exclusively interested in high salaries, expat bars and cheap girls? Well, here you are partially right: some are not interested in cheap girls ;-) ...

For the rest, feel welcome to discuss it in person - According to your details we might be neighbours (Tverskoi / Mayakovskaya / Beloruskaya), and here are enough bars around (for expats and non expats) choose the bar & I choose the drinks or viceversa.

MissAnnElk
22-05-2008, 20:25
Why you two are going at each other baffles me.

I agree: drinks are in order. You would like each other, I think. Really.

MickeyTong
22-05-2008, 20:52
You would like each other.....

.....barbecued, with a side salad, perhaps?

jumatre
22-05-2008, 21:00
.....barbecued, with a side salad, perhaps?

you are reminding me that I still did not have to eat today...

and of course no salad - as we say in Spain: greens are for sheep an goats. sheep and goats are for humans... dont destroy the chain of food

Guest
22-05-2008, 21:32
Well, here you are partially right: some are not interested in cheap girls ;-)

They prefer expensive?

TGP
22-05-2008, 23:25
Why? It is irrelevant whether another country is racist or not. This discussion is about Russia - as befits a thread on a Russian Expat site.

Hopefully Russians reading what foreigners think will make them in turn consider whether the criticism is fair and whether they should be pushing their politicians to do something about it.

Come on exactly. It is not a competition, "if you criticise Russia we will criticise your country." That is just pathetic.

This is an expat web-site designed for expats living in Russia. Part of its whole purpose is to discuss these issues - pretending they don't exist helps no one.


I don't know in which way this discussion helps others, but my weak brains fail to find something helpful in it, no matter how much I strain them.. as a Russian (who supposedly should finally understand what and how must be done in my country) I heard nothing useful, let alone new for me, which would make me exclaim: "Aha, really! and I didn't know..."

Disappointed. :D

P.S. I can say this not only about this thread...

Willy
22-05-2008, 23:27
They prefer expensive?

I like'm all, expensive, cheap, young, older, tall, short, black, white....



.

TGP
22-05-2008, 23:41
I like'm all, expensive, cheap, young, older, tall, short, black, white....



.

Do you have enough time for a fag?!

MickeyTong
23-05-2008, 00:13
British fag or US fag? There is an important difference.....

Gypsy
24-05-2008, 00:45
Seems that the hot weather makes brains working sloooowly :)

TGP's post is IRONIC, yes, yes. She means "Look, every time a 'non white' is attacked in Russia, some guys shout at a racism attack".

So she kindly asks by this example who must we (or YOU, lovely expats always ready to help us, poooooor racist Russians), WHO was the racist.

Any reply will be appreciated to this terrible question, thank you inadvance, we sooo much need your kind help :snoring:

I still do not understand.

I cannot see the irony in TGP's post at all. just an attempt to justify racism by confusing the situation.

When an intelligent well educated girl who has lived two years in Azbekistan (I think,it is from memory, but may be another CIS republic) and who studied Russian for 8 years and loves Russia, reports that she has been subject to constant harassment since moving to study in St Pete's; sorry but you HAVE to believe her.

Why would she lie? What does she have to gain by doing so?

I'm sorry but the stories she told rang true - they fit with what you see around you every day.

The black guy beaten upon the metro - did he make the story up? No -his mates were around, they saw it, they posted it on expat.

To me it is despicable to try and muddy the waters with spurious false analogies -what if a tajik and a black had a fight would it be racist? What if 2 south africans did? Who gives a toss? What has that got to do with the question being asked?

Is russia racist - yes hugely so - and it is the majority of the population based on my experience, and based on the people I have met here. And most of those do not even bother to deny it. They will happily admit that black people and those from the caucuses and turkish building workers as well are inferior and anything that happens to them is their own fault - they can put up with it or leave.

Was the man picked on and beaten up because his skin was black? Yes. That is a racist attack. Was the tajik followed by the security guard in perekrestok because his skin is darker? Yes. that is racism. Was the Thai woman followed and had goods planted in her bag by the security guard at 7 Continents simply because she was Thai? Yes. That is racism.

When you are coming home in the early hours of the morning, who do the militsia pick on, you and your friends or the bunch of construction workers walking behind you?You know - as does everyone else that they will pick on the tajiks and the turks. So please let's have no more of this bullshit -what if? crap - and fake pretense that russians are not racist.

They are. hugely, and anyone with their eyes open can see it every day..

Guest
24-05-2008, 00:56
I still do not understand.

Here is the problem...

jumatre
24-05-2008, 03:18
gipsy, your friends have a problem... a big problem, not of being blacks, but maybe of being illegals???

jumatre
24-05-2008, 03:32
and dear gipsy, since i see that your problem is not the problem, may i say that your problem is you? you dont like to see your colour painted in an expat bar? sorry to tell you but you are a coward... maybe mrs. ghana is better than you?? or mr. ghana? you are not a secret as your biz... guest has your originals and i hold the copies... black is not beautiful... never

Gypsy
24-05-2008, 06:13
and dear gipsy, since i see that your problem is not the problem, may i say that your problem is you? you dont like to see your colour painted in an expat bar? sorry to tell you but you are a coward... maybe mrs. ghana is better than you?? or mr. ghana? you are not a secret as your biz... guest has your originals and i hold the copies... black is not beautiful... never

Any chance you could write this in english so that I could understand it?

Firstly about your insults to my friends - no, all legally here. But it is very sad that you believe it alright for a security guard to plant goods in a woman's bag as long as he thinks she is an illegal. It says an awful lot about you.

What does my "colour painted in an expat bar" mean?

"You are not a secret as your biz? What is this?

Guest has my originals? What originals?

No, J, cowardice is pretending everything is fine when it very clearly is not. Pretend Russia and russians are not racist, that's OK then no one has to do anything. Problem solved.

People with darker skin will still get beaten up, but,Hey that's OK because they are probably illegals.

RRM
24-05-2008, 11:42
I admit racism exisit here probably more than some places or maybe less than some other places. But to say that Russians are racists is a very strong statement. My experiences so far fortunately have been the opposite. Yes, I did hear about so many things and Youtube is filled with horrible videos of these. I know that it has to be true after what I saw in these articles, news and even reading what you wrote. I was also given an orientation by my company that I work for about being extremely careful.
I also sometimes think it is probably the same for all foreigners but the ones who are colored can be picked out easily from the lot. So in this case it is rather Xenophobia more than racism. But I am no expert at this as personally I have not experienced it. Again, probably because I avoid being in that situation all together. I dont want to pretend everything is safe and all that either and get into trouble.
I totally believe there is truth in the existence of some illegal organizations which are poisoning the youth who end up carrying out some of the physical attacks. Perhaps the level of this is higher in Russia and if this is the case then the officials must take care of this as early as possible. Two weeks ago, my sister-in-law saw a bunch of Tajiks pick a fight with a Russian in the train and beat him up very bad. Was that racism, I would say it was. But if the officials dont do anything about it immediately, then these incidents will continue to happen.




When an intelligent well educated girl who has lived two years in Azbekistan (I think,it is from memory, but may be another CIS republic) and who studied Russian for 8 years and loves Russia, reports that she has been subject to constant harassment since moving to study in St Pete's; sorry but you HAVE to believe her.

Why would she lie? What does she have to gain by doing so?

I'm sorry but the stories she told rang true - they fit with what you see around you every day.

The black guy beaten upon the metro - did he make the story up? No -his mates were around, they saw it, they posted it on expat.

To me it is despicable to try and muddy the waters with spurious false analogies -what if a tajik and a black had a fight would it be racist? What if 2 south africans did? Who gives a toss? What has that got to do with the question being asked?

Is russia racist - yes hugely so - and it is the majority of the population based on my experience, and based on the people I have met here. And most of those do not even bother to deny it. They will happily admit that black people and those from the caucuses and turkish building workers as well are inferior and anything that happens to them is their own fault - they can put up with it or leave.

Was the man picked on and beaten up because his skin was black? Yes. That is a racist attack. Was the tajik followed by the security guard in perekrestok because his skin is darker? Yes. that is racism. Was the Thai woman followed and had goods planted in her bag by the security guard at 7 Continents simply because she was Thai? Yes. That is racism.

When you are coming home in the early hours of the morning, who do the militsia pick on, you and your friends or the bunch of construction workers walking behind you?You know - as does everyone else that they will pick on the tajiks and the turks. So please let's have no more of this bullshit -what if? crap - and fake pretense that russians are not racist.

They are. hugely, and anyone with their eyes open can see it every day..

vladimir_seroff
24-05-2008, 13:02
I would like to bring up the case, I describe below, not to show how bad it is in the USA, but to illustrate how American society conducts discussions of cases like that. Instead of insisting that there is no formal proof that this is a racial killing, and claiming that any racial interpretation of the case can be qualified, as anti-American behavior, they almost all agree that there is a need for a federal investigation.
This is a case of an unarmed black man who was killed by three policemen in 2006 in New York. The three policemen fired 50 bullets at him on his wedding day.
On April 25, 2008, the three policemen were acquitted by a judge. Whatever the explanation that the police officers gave, it cannot justify firing 50 bullets at the man, in my opinion.
This case is not unique at all.
Here is a quote from the article below:
"Large questions remain about the New York Police Department. In recent years, when police have killed unarmed men, they have been, almost without exception, black."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/26/opinion/26sat1.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
The important thing is that the American society acknowledges that this is a problem. I have never heard from any American, that I discussed this with, anything resembling the kind of criticism many expats are subjected to on this forum, when they bring up the problem of racial violence in Russia.




Here is the problem...

MissAnnElk
24-05-2008, 14:20
Lest you think we in the US don't examine ourselves:

Statistics on Bigotry - Facts and Numbers on Bigotry in the United States - Esquire (http://www.esquire.com/features/bigotry-statistics-0608)

vladimir_seroff
24-05-2008, 14:27
I was the most surprised by:

10 neo-Nazi groups in New Jersey, and 21 skinhead groups in California


Lest you think we in the US don't examine ourselves:

Statistics on Bigotry - Facts and Numbers on Bigotry in the United States - Esquire (http://www.esquire.com/features/bigotry-statistics-0608)

Gypsy
24-05-2008, 14:27
Lest you think we in the US don't examine ourselves:

Statistics on Bigotry - Facts and Numbers on Bigotry in the United States - Esquire (http://www.esquire.com/features/bigotry-statistics-0608)

This is precisely my point. the US,UK etc constantly ask themselves these questions and while things are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination they are better than here BECAUSE they receive criticism, mostly internally, and act on it.

So things get better.

And Jumatre - you have thrown several insults at me above-are you going to justify any of them? Answer the questions I posed?

You called me a coward above - no idea why but if it makes you feel good so be it - but I think the epithet sits rather better on someone who calls names and runs away.

RRM
24-05-2008, 14:35
This is exactly what we have been saying all along. Thats why I have said ealier as well that debates with my Russian friends and family are lot better because they have been more open to the issues we discuss. We learn from each other a lot more. Getting defensive does not make a good conversation.


This is precisely my point. the US,UK etc constantly ask themselves these questions and while things are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination they are better than here BECAUSE they receive criticism, mostly internally, and act on it.

So things get better.

TGP
24-05-2008, 19:54
O, Gospodi... no end of this discussion... and still nothing new or useful to learn...

Gypsy
24-05-2008, 20:07
O, Gospodi... no end of this discussion... and still nothing new or useful to learn...

13886

Guest
24-05-2008, 20:15
O, Gospodi... no end of this discussion... and still nothing new or useful to learn...


You come here to learn? :D

Willy
25-05-2008, 13:05
You come here to learn? :D

Well you come here to teach.

Gypsy
25-05-2008, 16:07
and dear gipsy, since i see that your problem is not the problem, may i say that your problem is you? you dont like to see your colour painted in an expat bar? sorry to tell you but you are a coward... maybe mrs. ghana is better than you?? or mr. ghana? you are not a secret as your biz... guest has your originals and i hold the copies... black is not beautiful... never

Third time of asking - Jumatre are you going to justify any of the insults above?

Justify calling me a coward?

Explain what the rest of it means?

Your silence just shows that you are in fact the coward - make an accusation and run away.

Guest
25-05-2008, 21:01
Well you come here to teach.


LOL I didn't even see :D

Carbo
26-05-2008, 12:14
Actually, I'm not sure it has much to do with this conversation, and I may be running the risk of setting of a firestorm, but me an a couple of the guys from the office met up with a couple of 21 year old, educated girls on Friday. Somehow -- I can't remember how through the haze of the long island iced tea -- the conversation got onto black people.

And I couldn't believe what these girls were saying. They used the word nigger all the time to refer to blacks (actually, I checked that I hadn't misheard the word negro said with another accent, but no, I hadn't); they said blacks have a different smell; they don't like traveling on the metro with them; they would never date a black man; and that they were happy that there was only a few in Moscow.

Perhaps unrepresentative, I'll admit, but a funny coincidence considering our debate here.

Sidney Bliss
26-05-2008, 12:19
And Jumatre - you have thrown several insults at me above-are you going to justify any of them? Answer the questions I posed?

You called me a coward above - no idea why but if it makes you feel good so be it - but I think the epithet sits rather better on someone who calls names and runs away.

Consider yourself lucky, he rang my doorbell last week and ran away! Now I'm waiting for Guest to put a stinkbomb through my letterbox!

Guest
26-05-2008, 20:35
Where is the problem if our girls prefer the delicate smell of Chanel or Dior?

Now about the words, negro, neger etc, it doesn't matter at all. Negro is a common word in Russian, should we feel sorry if you give another sense in your language?

And as this forum is sleeping a little, I will put some oil on the fire :) Many Russians see what blacks and arabs do in Europe (we all remember what we saw on the TV about France 2 or 3 years ago, and that comes back on a regular basis), and many Russians think "they are doing so in Europe, we don't want it becomes like this here in Russia".

And really, if the European countries wouldn't have had the attitude they had by, 40 years ago, welcoming all immigrants, there wouldn't be the bardak there is now. We just don't want the same situation in Russia.

Ready for the insults :bash:


Actually, I'm not sure it has much to do with this conversation, and I may be running the risk of setting of a firestorm, but me an a couple of the guys from the office met up with a couple of 21 year old, educated girls on Friday. Somehow -- I can't remember how through the haze of the long island iced tea -- the conversation got onto black people.

And I couldn't believe what these girls were saying. They used the word nigger all the time to refer to blacks (actually, I checked that I hadn't misheard the word negro said with another accent, but no, I hadn't); they said blacks have a different smell; they don't like traveling on the metro with them; they would never date a black man; and that they were happy that there was only a few in Moscow.

Perhaps unrepresentative, I'll admit, but a funny coincidence considering our debate here.

RRM
26-05-2008, 21:27
Just wondering if the same logic applies to the Russians around the world ?


Where is the problem if our girls prefer the delicate smell of Chanel or Dior?

Now about the words, negro, neger etc, it doesn't matter at all. Negro is a common word in Russian, should we feel sorry if you give another sense in your language?

And as this forum is sleeping a little, I will put some oil on the fire :) Many Russians see what blacks and arabs do in Europe (we all remember what we saw on the TV about France 2 or 3 years ago, and that comes back on a regular basis), and many Russians think "they are doing so in Europe, we don't want it becomes like this here in Russia".

And really, if the European countries wouldn't have had the attitude they had by, 40 years ago, welcoming all immigrants, there wouldn't be the bardak there is now. We just don't want the same situation in Russia.

Ready for the insults :bash:

Guest
26-05-2008, 22:04
Just wondering if the same logic applies to the Russians around the world ?

Where do you see Russian citizens living abroad that attack the police, burn cars and shops, etc?

RRM
26-05-2008, 22:11
Guest, you seem like you speak for your government about why Russia does this or that etc. Also, none of the Russians I know personally share the same opinions as you.
I dont want to stereotype Russians as well like you are doing. Unfortunately you arnt aware of the activities that some of the Russians do overseas. These again dont represent the Russians I know off. Thats very fortunate for me. Head south to the entire middle east, organized prostitution run from here. I am not going to go further but just so you are aware of.


Where do you see Russian citizens living abroad that attack the police, burn cars and shops, etc?

TGP
26-05-2008, 22:29
Now about the words, negro, neger etc, it doesn't matter at all. Negro is a common word in Russian, should we feel sorry if you give another sense in your language?
:


On the way to my work I pass by a kiosk where they sell all kinds of sweets. One of my favorite is a cake which is called Улыбка негра (A negro's smile). Chocolate bisquit with a whipped cream layer. Tasty!

Do I act as a racist when buy and eat it? :D
...and I don't even ask about the factory which bakes the cakes. Sure, they are racist....

Carbo
26-05-2008, 22:52
First, they were using the word nigger, not negro; I'm well aware of the different meaning in Russian.

As for the sweet, of course it doesn't make you a racist, what a funny thing to ask. I don't think anyone here would think anything of the sort.

xSnoofovich
26-05-2008, 23:17
Where do you see Russian citizens living abroad that attack the police, burn cars and shops, etc?


estonia?

xSnoofovich
26-05-2008, 23:21
Admins - I would put forth a motion that this thread be closed, and no further discussion on racism in Russia be held.

There is no point, as different people hold differernt views, and everyone is correct in their own eyes.

Guest
26-05-2008, 23:31
Guest, you seem like you speak for your government about why Russia does this or that etc. Also, none of the Russians I know personally share the same opinions as you.
I dont want to stereotype Russians as well like you are doing. Unfortunately you arnt aware of the activities that some of the Russians do overseas. These again dont represent the Russians I know off. Thats very fortunate for me. Head south to the entire middle east, organized prostitution run from here. I am not going to go further but just so you are aware of.


No problem you are right, we do not know the same people, you and I :)

But nobody (unless you) can deny that most of Russians share the same views than I on many points, and a very small minority (though respectable!) of Russians shares YOUR opinions. You can tell whatever you want, it won't change anything about this.
Oh and you don't know what you say, as you wrote some days ago that generally, Russians are racist! So finally what do you think? If you think something of course..


I am perfectly aware of what 8some* Russians do abroad, I lived myself abroad MANY years during CCCP and later. And as you do not know what my job was, you should better not argue that I am not aware of this. Period.

So Russians abroad run prostitution rings? Yes, SOME. Like some Albanians (very famous for this in Italy and France), some negros (in Belgium), Turks (Germany), etc etc.

But maybe that you are one of these guys who also say that "All Russian girls are prostitutes"?

Guest
26-05-2008, 23:34
First, they were using the word nigger, not negro; I'm well aware of the different meaning in Russian.

As for the sweet, of course it doesn't make you a racist, what a funny thing to ask. I don't think anyone here would think anything of the sort.


You would be surprised of the quantity of PM I receive to support my views. But all from "racist" people probably.

And I will tell you a secret, just to YOU: I do not post here to be pleasant for people :) Incredible, hey? I perfectly know that some people here hate me and my opinions, do you think I have bad nights for this? :snoring:

Guest
26-05-2008, 23:36
On the way to my work I pass by a kiosk where they sell all kinds of sweets. One of my favorite is a cake which is called Улыбка негра (A negro's smile). Chocolate bisquit with a whipped cream layer. Tasty!

Do I act as a racist when buy and eat it? :D
...and I don't even ask about the factory which bakes the cakes. Sure, they are racist....


Oh I think about something, a Russian guy living in Paris told me that the chocolate powder named "Banania" had to change their pictures that were very specific and popular since about hundred years in France, because "anti-racists" said that it gives a bad image of africans!

Look until where the stupidity of these people can go...

Here are 3 pics of Banania (from Google :))

Carbo
27-05-2008, 00:50
You would be surprised of the quantity of PM I receive to support my views. But all from "racist" people probably.

And I will tell you a secret, just to YOU: I do not post here to be pleasant for people :) Incredible, hey? I perfectly know that some people here hate me and my opinions, do you think I have bad nights for this? :snoring:
Hey, man, I wasn't having a pop at you. I know I do, so it may be unusual, but not this time.

quincy
27-05-2008, 01:10
The media in Russia has an important role in promoting harmony towards immigrants and dark skinned foreigners. In Soviet times foreign students (many of them from Africa, India, the Middle East etc) apparently were very well received (possibly treated better than Soviet students). In recent years there have been racially motivated killings against Central Asians (Tajiks, Uzbecks) and Caucasians like Armenians, also blacks etc (especially those from lower income groups).

Is the Russian media doing enough?

agvares
27-05-2008, 15:00
russian media is only doing some crap which can't convince even a child.

racists, for example, can give you much better arguments.

quincy
27-05-2008, 18:24
BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Russian justice 'fails thousands' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7421576.stm)

vladimir_seroff
27-05-2008, 19:01
To some extent, I would say – “yes”. I heard, a couple of months ago, while attending a certain social gathering, where nobody knew I was a Russian, that the reason why Americans cannot afford to rent apartments on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, anymore, was because of all those Russian, who came here (to New York) with their money. Although, in the same conversation, someone else also blamed Europeans :-).


Just wondering if the same logic applies to the Russians around the world ?

vladimir_seroff
27-05-2008, 19:04
There is no point, as different people hold differernt views, and everyone is correct in their own eyes.

Isn't that true about any subject?

w.meijerink
30-05-2008, 11:40
What a strange and wrong interpretation of my post! As Sal would say, "disappointed"...

They are engaged in illegal business not because of their skin color, but for other reasons, you mentioned some of them, which, as you rightly said, does not justify them at all. Of course, there are many Russian/white men engaged in criminal business, who argues?! What I want to say is that if some colored skin person is murdered, the murder is not necessarily a racist action, this person may be murdered for, say, his not fulfillment of his crimical "obligation". For example: someone (non-Russian) did not sell drugs to his usual client, and the latter killed the seller. Is it a racist action? No, it is not, but without knowing all the details they may state it is demonstration of racism. But if a Russian is killed by a non-Russian under the same circumstances, this murder will never be considered as an act of racism.

Is it because a Russian has a lot of backup in Russia?

As for observers and all kinds of "specialists" from outside Russia, they have a habit to draw conclusions on THEIR experience, and the rules and standards set up in their countries, but this is another subject of discussion. I hope this statement of mine does not sound as demonstration of nationalism to you.

So when a men or women is walking on the street, they can see of they makes illegal business???
Like the melon seller a two years ago in St. Petersburg, so you want to tell me that he was kill because he makes illegal business.
From the other side I can tell you that illegal business is a matter for the police and government and not for this IDOTS.

TGP
31-05-2008, 00:11
So when a men or women is walking on the street, they can see of they makes illegal business???
Like the melon seller a two years ago in St. Petersburg, so you want to tell me that he was kill because he makes illegal business.
From the other side I can tell you that illegal business is a matter for the police and government and not for this IDOTS.


Here we go again...

Read my posts one more time, maybe you'll see what I mean.

I have no idea why the melon seller was killed, but from the other side, I can tell you that A LOT of sellers (melon or whatever) are also sellers of drugs, weapon etc. Or you don't know that?
Yes, illegal business is a matter for the police and government, but what I mean is shootouts which happen between criminal groupings. Or you never heard about them either?

In other words: not all coloured people are harmless and innocent victims, some of them (NOT ALL) may be killed because of their crimimal deeds, but such murder can be interepreted as a racist one.

Guest
31-05-2008, 02:35
I have no idea why the melon seller was killed, but from the other side, I can tell you that A LOT of sellers (melon or whatever) are also sellers of drugs, weapon etc.

And are not killed :(


In other words: not all coloured people are harmless and innocent victims, some of them (NOT ALL) may be killed because of their crimimal deeds, but such murder can be interepreted as a racist one.

"can be interepreted as a racist one"... By those who have some interest to shout "RACISM" everywhere and always!

jumatre
02-06-2008, 03:46
Consider yourself lucky, he rang my doorbell last week and ran away! Now I'm waiting for Guest to put a stinkbomb through my letterbox!

Dear Syd, In dont think that anybody has to put a stinkbomb in your letter box or appartment, as it already stinks.... it stinks of your own putrefaction... yours and your ideas, not to speak about your life

your life stinks as you think you are a superior being - you are not... you dont need bombs as your life is a smelly bad inferior one.

Carbo
03-06-2008, 08:23
The Moscow Times - Russia for Racists (http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/600/42/367961.htm)

Guest
03-06-2008, 14:00
The Moscow Times - Russia for Racists (http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/600/42/367961.htm)


God, they found 4 or 5 dark people attacked by whities. During the same time how many whites were stolen or/and attacked by darked guys?

Bah, the MT continues their stupid and dirty propaganda!

Sidney Bliss
03-06-2008, 14:10
Bah, the MT continues their stupid and dirty propaganda!

Write 'em a letter and sign it "Mr.Kettle".

kebab
03-06-2008, 18:18
Just wanted to add a point made about the media responsibility regarding racism. I opened Time Out today to see an article about a film which used the term "про умного негрa" now I know you are all going to say the usual things like you can use the word Negro (but according to most Russian NGOs and black guys in Russia I know the word is offensive). To be honest I find it offensive and most Russian who aren't over 40 don't use the term.
Russia has other words like Негритянский, темнокожий for example and if you look in most translators they негр term is only used in offensive terms. So what the hell is Time Out doing using it.
And no it isn't political correctness, out of respect the Russian media should be using appropriate terms to describe ethnicity.

Carbo
03-06-2008, 19:49
Some of the most sensible stuff I've rewad on race from a rather surprising source, Willem Buiter, the FT's right leaning economically conservative, former advisor to the BoE monetary policy committee. I suppose I shouldn't have said surprising, because that's not fair. Willem is, after all, a supremely intelligent fellow.

Race in America

Senator Obama calls himself a black American or African American. He is seen as a black American or African American by most of the black/African-American community and probably also by the white community and the other racial/ethnic communities in the USA. By self-identifying as a black American, Senator Obama, who has a black Kenyan father and a white American mother, denies or diminishes the 50 percent of his parental heritage that is white.

Self-identification is, of course, a matter of personal preference and choice. But if I were to self-identify as a black female, a few eyebrows would be raised. When a self-identifying choice makes little sense because of its lack of congruence with easily observable facts, it is open to question, even to criticism.

Language matters. By any reasonable use of the English language, Senator Obama is not a black American or an African American. By the twisted usage that prevails in the USA (and to a growing extent also in the UK) where the politics and language of race are concerned, he is a black American or an African American.

Senator Obama is clearly an American, because he was born in the USA. But he is neither only black nor only white. He is of mixed race or multi-racial. He is also not the descendant of slaves forcibly taken, sold and shipped to America. This era of chattel slavery is the defining historical trauma that has shaped and distorted the American discourse about race. African-European American would be a better description if the geographical location of recent ancestors determines the adjectives that precede ‘American’.

Because his father was born in Africa, Senator Obama can fairly claim African as a self-identifying adjective to go with American. For most of the African-American community in the USA, however, the most recent ancestor to have been born in Africa is many generations in the past. What determines how many generations you live in a country but still identify with a country or continent of origin of some distant ancestor? If we go back far enough, because of the African genesis of humanity, every human being should put ‘African’ before their continental and racial identification.

Humans have through the ages classified and sorted themselves according to many criteria and observable characteristics, including gender, race, sexual orientation, age, hair colour, eye colour, social status, religion, nationality, tribe, cl**** height, weight and health status. The term ‘race’ is vague and fuzzy. Many scientists argue that it is not a particularly useful criterion for classifying people. Typically, the term race is used to divide people into populations or groups according to visible traits, especially skin colour, cranial or facial features and hair texture. Some of the taxonomies based on racial categories are completely crackpot. Some are motivated by evil intent. The other way (rather circular, in my view) the concept of race is used to divide people is based on self-identification.

Racism is the belief that one race is superior to another race. Racism is a universal phenomenon: it appears to occur in every time and place. In every country and age, however, there also appear to be many individuals who have not succumbed to this virus. I have seen manifestations of racism everywhere I have lived or visited: in the Netherlands, in Belgium, in the UK, in the USA, in China, in India, in Japan, in Vietnam, in Russia, in Peru, Argentina and Brazil, in South Africa, Ethiopia and Morocco, in Australia, in Israel, in the UAE and in Egypt.

The American attitude towards race, especially towards those who, during my lifetime have been designated as negroes, blacks, African-Americans and people of color (a category also often defined more broadly to include all non-whites) remains baffling, divisive and destructive of a true sense of nationhood. First, everyone must be put into some racial box. Second, everyone who has even just a single great-grand parent who hailed from Africa and had black skin colour is identified as African-American/black and is expected to self-identify the same way. What happened to the remaining 87.5 percent, 75 percent, 50 percent or whatever lower percentage of a person’s ancestors who came from other parts of the world and may have had very different skin colours or hair textures?

I am not saying that this selective denial of part or even most of a person’s ancestry is hard to explain historically. But even if we grant that the American obsession with the country’s failure to fully integrate into the national mainstream a significant proportion of its black/African-American population can be explained and understood fully through the unique historical experience of the USA, where the majority of the African-American population are the descendants of slaves brought to the country from Africa in chains - what of it? That does not alter the fact that for both the black and the white communities, it is an unhealthy and destructive obsession - one that is in urgent need of change if the long shadow cast by slavery is not to destroy a large segment of yet another generation of black American males.

If change is indeed needed, I believe that there is good news on the racial front. Things are changing, even in America. The identification of Senator Obama by most of the US electorate as a black American or African American, and Senator Obama’s matching self-identification reflect a mindset and a model of racial identification and self-identification that have not yet cast off the historical chains of slavery in the USA. It reflects a culture of which the Rev. Wright is an extreme example from an earlier generation, a culture that makes those who embrace it the prisoners of a vile past - a past that has become a dead-end street.

The future belongs to people who emulate Tiger Woods’ attitude towards race, or take it a stage further by denying the intrinsic or fundamental significance of race altogether. After being fêted as a great black golfer, Tiger Woods stated that he was not black but Cablinasian (as in Caucasian-Black-Indian-Asian). If I have done my research correctly (I am not 100% sure of the details), Woods’ father is half black, one quarter American Indian and one quarter white. His mother is half Thai and half Chinese. Why can’t he just be an American, without any racial epithet - even Cablinasian?

The process driving the less history-burdened, and less-exclusionist form of racial identification and self-identification exemplified by Tiger Woods is the rapid growth in the number of people with mixed-race or multi-racial ancestries. It is one of the great blessings of globalisation. I am a beneficiary of this process myself, through my children.

My son was adopted from Peru, my daughter from Bolivia. They both have brown skin and pitch black (son)/dark (daughter) hair. Both my children are multi-racial - of mixed race. My daughter’s most likely ancestry is part Aymara Indian and part white European, probably Swiss. My son is also part Indian (probably one of the nations subjugated by the Incas) and part white European. His features are more oriental, however, than those of even full Peruvian Indians. So there could be a Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese or Korean ancestor somewhere down the line. When he was a baby, the locals in Lima used to call him ‘Chinito’ or ‘little Chinese’. In most of South America, any man from East Asia or of East Asian origin is called ‘Chino’ - this befell even the former President of Peru, Alberto Fujimori, who was of Japanese origin. What does all this make my children, in the racial pigeonholing stakes? The correct answer is: whatever. Who cares?

We moved from the US to the UK in 1994. My son went to his first party in the UK, at the age of four, in the then racially very homogeneously white village of Great Gransden, 14 miles west of Cambridge. I hung around to make sure he would be OK in this unfamiliar setting. He came to see me after a while with a rather confused look on his face. “Daddy, that boy there called me a blackie”. “Oh”, I replied, not very articulately, “so what did you reply?” “I told him I wasn’t a blackie, because I am a brownie”. And so of course he was. And is. And will be.

I told my son he was quite right; that the other boy was either ignorant, because he did not know the difference between black and brown, or that the other boy was trying to insult him, because there were people who considered skin colour to be important and also considered some skin colours to be better than others. That was wrong, it was bad, but it did happen. The boy probably had just been parroting his parents. My son should never accept this kind of nonsense or put up with it. But he should also never respond by retaliating in kind.

Since 1997, we have lived in London, first in the Isle of Dogs, now in South East London. One of the great pluses of London is its incredible variety of people - all races (and all combinations of races), all cultures, all religions, all ethnic backgrounds mix and mingle - most of the time peacefully but at times, unfortunately, violently. The pupils at the primary school on the Isle of Dogs attended by my kids for a few years, were over 70% of Bengali background. The rest were mainly from Vietnamese, Chinese, and a variety of African backgrounds. The only white kids were those of the teachers and a few children representing the remnants of the old white working class - a group that had been decimated when the docks died. The school was a haven of tolerance, respect, good manners and learning. It can be done.

My children consider the multi-racial, multi-cultural society of London to be the norm. In early September 2006, my wife and I were teaching a course in Kiel, northern Germany. The children were with us, and a good time was had driving around Schleswig-Holstein and southern Denmark. My daughter, then just 13, turns to me as we walk along the harbour in Kiel and says: “Daddy, what’s wrong with this place? Everyone is white”. I hadn’t noticed, but she was quite right. The contrast with London’s melting pot or racial and ethnic cauldron was stark. We had a long talk about race and racism that evening over dinner.

I tried to explain to them that race matters if and only if enough people believe that it matters.(It is an example of what economists call a ‘bubble’ - something not explained by objective fundamentals but by self-validating, arbitrary beliefs (that’s not how I put it to them!)). If people everywhere believed race was irrelevant, it would be irrelevant. It would be like hair colour or eye colour among white people. All people are made in God’s image and are equal in God’s eyes. Recognise that race matters in the world and that racism continues to be rife, but remember that God is colour blind, or rather, that She likes all colours equally. Know with your head that race matters and how it matters in the world, but always deny its relevance in your heart and soul. Etc. etc.

Even though race is a fundamentally irrelevant category, when it is deemed relevant by a sufficient number of people, injustice and violence can be perpetrated in the name of racial superiority. That injustice and violence then becomes part of history, part of the individual and collective memories of people and nations. It can become embedded in a culture. It takes time, courage, determination and imagination to overcome such legacies. If Obama’s election could help bring us closer to a USA in which race was no more important than hair colour or eye colour, I would vote for him. I am, however, afraid that he is still too much a prisoner of the mindset of the past to make much of a difference here.

I believe that within a few generations, globalisation will have killed off not just racism but race as a relevant category for self-identification and social pigeonholing. That is not, unfortunately, the world we live in now. My children are likely to encounter prejudice and discrimination at some points in their lives. In the US, where they are classified by the social security system as ‘hispanic’ (probably the dumbest category ever invented by ethnic/racial taxonomists), they could even encounter some positive discrimination, under what remains of the affirmative action laws.

I hope I have taught them to stand up for themselves - for their universal rights as free human beings. They should fight discrimination directed at themselves or at others; they should reject positive discrimination for themselves. They should always contest the relevance of ‘race’ as an explanation for any action or measure, private or public.

My father, on his first visit to the USA in 1954 or 1955, got into trouble when on his immigration service entry-form he wrote ‘human’ in the space left open for ‘race’. In the end, the immigration official simply crossed out what my father had written, replaced it with ‘caucasian’ or ‘white’ and let him through. My parents brought us up race-blind, but not blind to the reality of racism and racial prejudice. They had lived through World War II. More than 80 percent of Dutch Jewry was murdered by the Nazis because of some half-baked theory of racial purity and superiority. The reality and destructive power of racism, especially when allied with the institutions of the state, was very well understood by them.

I have followed the example set by my father by steadfastly refusing to enter information on race whenever this was requested in a census form. Both the US census and the UK census demand that information. Even the LSE Human Resources departments wants to know which race I am. As a social scientist, I regret the loss of a data point. As a human being I refuse to answer a question that it is morally wrong to ask.

There are other reasons for not providing information on race (or ethnicity or disability) in the census. That is the legitimate fear that this information will be abused either by the state or by some other party that gains access to this information. There is no such thing as confidential information. Guarantees to that effect aren’t worth spit. So anyone who loves liberty should leave those entries in the census blank.

With a bit of luck, globalisation will continue to mix and re-mix the human gene pool. A world in which a growing proportion of humanity is, according to the old racial metrics, of mixed race or multi-racial, ought to be a world where the concept of race itself ceases to be relevant for self-identification, as well as socially, culturally and politically.

Carbo
05-06-2008, 12:01
See, it's everywhere:
High riser | News | guardian.co.uk Books (http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,2283753,00.html)

MissAnnElk
05-06-2008, 12:22
See, it's everywhere:
High riser | News | guardian.co.uk Books (http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,2283753,00.html)

What a great article. Thanks for introducing me to this writer.

MickeyTong
05-06-2008, 12:48
YouTube- Clip From Till Death us do Part 1972 Christmas special

ezik
06-06-2008, 01:39
Just to add a bit more material...

From Russia With Hate // Current

This documentary is about the skinhead scene in Russia and the often appearing videos where foreigners get beaten up.

I posted this because the documentary gives a quite good introspection into a rather scary scene of skinheads. It shows a rather extreme form of racism, and it is certainly not for the faint of heart, be warned.

MissAnnElk
06-06-2008, 09:13
Just to add a bit more material...

From Russia With Hate // Current (http://current.com/items/84906361_from_russia_with_hate)

This documentary is about the skinhead scene in Russia and the often appearing videos where foreigners get beaten up.

I posted this because the documentary gives a quite good introspection into a rather scary scene of skinheads. It shows a rather extreme form of racism, and it is certainly not for the faint of heart, be warned.

That is the most stomach-churning, repulsive thing I think I have ever seen.

kebab
06-06-2008, 09:27
Nothing can justify hatred for one section of society whether it is for reasons of race, colour, sexuality, disability, religion. Its a good film but really depressing especially when you see how many of the Russian guys just live to beat up (in gangs not on their own) anyone who they think is different from them. They aren't patriots just common bullies.


This is an interview with Arsenal's former goalkeeper Jens Lehrmann where he talks about living in the UK. It cheered me up after the depressing video.

ttp://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/lehmann-thanks-england-for-lesson-in-tolerant-living-840367.html

RRM
06-06-2008, 09:31
Now I hope people understand why I take my precautions here. Why risk it. I have been oriented very well before I came here.

Gypsy
06-06-2008, 09:56
Now I hope people understand why I take my precautions here. Why risk it. I have been oriented very well before I came here.

And you are very wise to do so.

MickeyTong
06-06-2008, 20:47
ecosob.......an anagram of boscoe, but I don't think it's him. I wonder who it could be?

svelt
06-06-2008, 21:48
great thread