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camus
22-04-2004, 15:55
Do the terminal words of the following verse rhyme:

And, sighing, murmur to oneself
I wish you'd gone to bloody hell

Yes or No ?

kak
22-04-2004, 16:05
Do we really need to be native english speaket only to see that a "elf" sound do not rhyme with "el" one??? ;)

Ned Kelly
22-04-2004, 16:06
i think this thread should wait until j.d. can get here and give us a more rounded explanation.;)

rantandrave
22-04-2004, 16:08
oh, where is alex shifrin when you need him?

camus
22-04-2004, 16:10
Originally posted by kakrout
Do we really need to be native english speaket only to see that a "elf" sound do not rhyme with "el" one??? ;)

Probably not, but I wanted to eliminate that variable :)

Filimon
22-04-2004, 16:42
Originally posted by kakrout
Do we really need to be native english speaket only to see that a "elf" sound do not rhyme with "el" one??? ;)

"Elf" and "el" - do not. "Murmur to oneself" and "gone to bloody hell" do.

camus
22-04-2004, 16:44
Originally posted by Filimon
"Elf" and "el" - do not. "Murmur to oneself" and "gone to bloody hell" do.

I think you're confusing assonance with rhyme.

Shaun
22-04-2004, 16:49
alas, the algerian is right. this is assonance, and at best a veeeeeeeeery weak rhyme.

in terms of suitability for your translation, i think its 100% fine. As a 'rhyme or not' question, youre wrong...

camus
22-04-2004, 16:53
Originally posted by Shaun
alas, the algerian is right. this is assonance, and at best a veeeeeeeeery weak rhyme.

in terms of suitability for your translation, i think its 100% fine. As a 'rhyme or not' question, youre wrong...

Shuan,

For lack of a better term, what are your "credentials" for judging a translation ?

I'm a dual native native speaker (bilingual, but I've heard this term abused too much) with arguably good feel for both languages.

Filimon
22-04-2004, 16:54
Originally posted by Shaun
alas, the algerian is right. this is assonance, and at best a veeeeeeeeery weak rhyme.

in terms of suitability for your translation, i think its 100% fine. As a 'rhyme or not' question, youre wrong...

Obviously the question is in the definition of a "rhyme". Camus conveniently ignored my question about "minute" - "in it". The words clearly look different. Can you honestly say that they do not rhyme? So the words do not have to look the same to rhyme, do they?

I would not even think to start translating Pushkin. It is a very unrewarding task, as even Nabokov found out. I just wanted to have some fun, as the name of the thread suggested. The concept is obviously lost on the author of the thread, in spite of the name.

I also resent the fact that this particular thread is addressed to NATIVE English speakers only. I am a native Russian, so let everyone have a say.

Shaun
22-04-2004, 16:57
my credentials are zero. my russian is ok but not to the level where i would feel confident in my translation.

My point was a general point about the translation of poetry from any language, especially when the language has a markedly different structure and syntax. In this case, I feel exact replications of rhyme/rhythm are less important than those of meaning/ideas/imagery within a loosely similar structure.

Filimon
22-04-2004, 16:57
Originally posted by camus
Shuan,

For lack of a better term, what are your "credentials" for judging a translation ?

I'm a dual native native speaker (bilingual, but I've heard this term abused too much) with arguably good feel for both languages.

being bilingual does not make you an authority. So the goodness of your feel is extremely "arguable".

I am also bilingual, so what? You for one do not seem to think it is relevant.

camus
22-04-2004, 16:58
Originally posted by Filimon
Obviously the question is in the definition of a "rhyme". Camus conveniently ignored my question about "minute" - "in it". The words clearly look different. Can you honestly say that they do not rhyme? So the words do not
have to look the same to rhyme, do they?



Don't flatter yourself. I didn't notice this post. Anyway, I already answered the bit about "virtue" and "hurt you" which is a weak rhyme.

Again, assonance isn't rhyme.

As for fun, have fun, just spot ****ing arguing when you are wrong. You ask me to explain where you failed to keep the rhyme pattern and I explained it to you. Now you want to argue about something else. Get a clue.

Filimon
22-04-2004, 16:58
I will "spot" when I feel like it, so naff off!

camus
22-04-2004, 16:59
Originally posted by Filimon
being bilingual does not make you an authority. So the goodness of your feel is extremely "arguable".

I am also bilingual, so what? You for one do not seem to think it is relevant.

Filimon: you're not bilingual. You're a Russian who learned to speak English and who makes typically Russian errors with article usage.

Filimon
22-04-2004, 17:00
Originally posted by camus


Don't flatter yourself. I didn't notice this post. Anyway, I already answered the bit about "virtue" and "hurt you" which is a weak rhyme.

Again, assonance isn't rhyme.

As for fun, have fun, just spot ****ing arguing when you are wrong. You ask me to explain where you failed to keep the rhyme pattern and I explained it to you. Now you want to argue about something else. Get a clue. [/B]

One of the meanings of "assonance" is "vowel-rhyme", so eat my shorts!

Shaun
22-04-2004, 17:01
well of course they dont have to look the same. Cough and toff rhyme; cough, bough, through, though, don't rhyme at all.

Minute and in it rhyme, they have the same consonant sounds.

Can you not see that this is different to oneself and hell, where there is assonance but NO RHYME or at best very very very weak rhyme, if they are slightly misprounounced, because the consonant sounds are different.

camus
22-04-2004, 17:02
Originally posted by Filimon
I will "spot" when I feel like it, so naff off!

Filimon,

You're a strange case. You make a claim, I (successfully) dispute your claim, and then you say that I'm a bastard for attributing importance to said claim even though you were the one who underscored it [the importance] :)

Peter

Filimon
22-04-2004, 17:03
Originally posted by Shaun
well of course they dont have to look the same. Cough and toff rhyme; cough, bough, through, though, don't rhyme at all.

Minute and in it rhyme, they have the same consonant sounds.

Can you not see that this is different to oneself and hell, where there is assonance but NO RHYME or at best very very very weak rhyme, if they are slightly misprounounced, because the consonant sounds are different.

I do see it's an assonance. However, it is used in may poems. Whereas Camus says they do not sound like each other AT ALL.

camus
22-04-2004, 17:03
Originally posted by Filimon
One of the meanings of "assonance" is "vowel-rhyme", so eat my shorts!

Yes, vowel rhyme is a SUBSET.

camus
22-04-2004, 17:04
Originally posted by Filimon
I do see it's an assonance. However, it is used in may poems. Whereas Camus says they do not sound like each other AT ALL.

No, the word I used was "rhyme". You're wrong. Admit it. The world will not end.

Filimon
22-04-2004, 17:08
Originally posted by camus
Filimon,

You're a strange case. You make a claim, I (successfully) dispute your claim, and then you say that I'm a bastard for attributing importance to said claim even though you were the one who underscored it [the importance] :)

Peter

I do not understand why it is so important that my piss-taking has all the rhymes in place. I did concede that not all of them are, what the hell do you want from me?

What I do understand is that you really want to have the last word here. I shall make it easier for you: you can have it. It does not rhyme, my piss-taking out of thread has failed, my translation is not Pushkin, you are the star of the show, everyone should lick your feet and bow.

There. Happy now?

camus
22-04-2004, 17:10
Originally posted by Filimon
I do not understand why it is so important that my piss-taking has all the rhymes in place. I did concede that not all of them are, what the hell do you want from me?

You said you preserved the original rhymthic structure of the poem. I said you failed to do this and explained why. Now you're upset. You also claimed that your translation of the last two lines is rhyming. It isn't and the whole forum so far agrees with me.

I believe the Russian expression for my predicament is: "ne praf: durak, praf: negodai"

Filimon
22-04-2004, 17:18
Originally posted by camus


You said you preserved the original rhymthic structure of the poem. I said you failed to do this and explained why. Now you're upset. You also claimed that your translation of the last two lines is rhyming. It isn't and the whole forum so far agrees with me.

I believe the Russian expression for my predicament is: "ne praf: durak, praf: negodai" [/B]

Wou, hold on a second. Are we talking about RHYTHM or RHYME? I never said my RHYMES were perfect, I did say the RHYTHM was correct. If you say that it's an assonance, then the RHYTHM stays put. There are still 4 steps, still the same order of rhyming (or nearly rhyming lines). I can't get it 100% perfect, noone can, but...

Shaun
22-04-2004, 17:32
jesus, this is never going to stop!

im out of here!

Jet
22-04-2004, 17:32
Filimon, give me ur senior partner phone number I will tell him what u do during billing hours :D

Filimon
22-04-2004, 17:37
Originally posted by Jet Li
Filimon, give me ur senior partner phone number I will tell him what u do during billing hours :D

I am experienced enough and can type quite fast to be able to combine the two :)

Alethea
22-04-2004, 17:38
I would say that Filimon 's translation is nigh to brilliant , whereas camus displayed an undeniable gift for finding faults.

Well done, guys!
Now find peace of your busy minds and let us rest too.

Olga
22-04-2004, 17:56
The winner can only be determined after Camus will post his own version and Filimon will expose it's faults.

If not for people like Filimon (who dare to try and DO things) nobody would ever know how good a critic Camus is:)

Let's have a poll on who is more appealing: the one who tries or the one who picks at him for not being perfect.

Shaun
22-04-2004, 18:05
olga, you seem to have become far more pleasant and reasonable since your pointless tirade about editing a few weeks ago...

how nice everyone has become friendly now!

Filimon
22-04-2004, 18:11
Originally posted by Shaun
olga, you seem to have become far more pleasant and reasonable since your pointless tirade about editing a few weeks ago...

how nice everyone has become friendly now!

Yes! I love you all!;)

camus
22-04-2004, 18:21
... someone is stuffing the ballot. The fun never stops !

camus
22-04-2004, 18:22
Originally posted by Shaun
olga, you seem to have become far more pleasant and reasonable since your pointless tirade about editing a few weeks ago...

how nice everyone has become friendly now!

Shaun, Olga, and J.D. in a room together -- I can feel the love ... and the pathological, pointless arguing !

Jet
22-04-2004, 18:26
For those admiring Filimon - u think he doesn't know he is great ?? :) Hey, Fil, I am calling ur boss now

camus
22-04-2004, 18:27
Originally posted by Jet Li
For those admiring Filimon - u think he doesn't know he is great ?? :) Hey, Fil, I am calling ur boss now

Jet Li,

You truly are the master of undecipherable yet somehow vaguely offensive posts !

Olga
22-04-2004, 18:34
Originally posted by Shaun
olga, you seem to have become far more pleasant and reasonable since your pointless tirade about editing a few weeks ago...

how nice everyone has become friendly now! Shaun, I already mentioned that this login is used by one more person and if one of us indeed gets unreasonable the other can always correct him:) so no need for outer control. I'm as sure as ever that editing and deleting makes it more interesting, but it's only my opinion.

Me and J.D.! In one room! First could somebody please explain why he thinks I hate him whereas we never even talked??:)

Jet
22-04-2004, 18:37
Thanks Camus, I am doing my best :) Anyway, I usually don't mean to offend anybody, just messing around

camus
22-04-2004, 18:46
Originally posted by Jet Li
Thanks Camus, I am doing my best :) Anyway, I usually don't mean to offend anybody, just messing around

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you don't try, but often your posts tread on the outer edges of lucidity. I believe it was either allice or fiesta who got quite pissed at one of your strange comments recently :)

Peter

camus
22-04-2004, 18:48
Originally posted by Olga
Shaun, I already mentioned that this login is used by one more person and if one of us indeed gets unreasonable the other can always correct him:)


Is that the new euphemism for "schizophrenia" ?

Jet
22-04-2004, 19:06
I know Camus, but that's just me, irritating people is my natural gift, btw why don't u give me ur boss' phone number, I will tell him how much time u spend on expat.ru :D

Olga
22-04-2004, 21:29
Originally posted by camus
Is that the new euphemism for "schizophrenia" ?
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar (you're not as insightful as you think you are, Camus:)

camus
22-04-2004, 21:33
Originally posted by Olga
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar (you're not as insightful as you think you are, Camus:)

I think many people here share my sentiments regarding you. Specifically: "Go away, you stupid, argumentative, humourless bitch(es)" Obsessive compulsive doesn't fit well with argumentative and passive-aggressive.

Olga
22-04-2004, 21:55
I could use the same pattern to reply: "Go away you ...., ........., ...... SOB" but it would sound so stupid, argumentative and humorless... Why bore our readers, Camus? Let's try to be entertaining, or it's not worth it.

camus
22-04-2004, 21:56
Originally posted by Olga
I could use the same pattern to reply: "Go away you ...., ........., ...... SOB" but it would sound so stupid, argumentative and humorless... Why bore our readers, Camus? Let's try to be entertaining, or it's not worth it.

Q.E.D

Olga
22-04-2004, 22:38
Faute de mieux...
\yaaawn\

Alethea
23-04-2004, 10:28
Attention!

We moved on :D

polly
23-04-2004, 10:45
Originally posted by camus
I think you're confusing assonance with rhyme.

yeah alethea... i thought something smelled like ass in here...

Edith
23-04-2004, 14:21
If this were in "Gordie" then hell and self do rhyme since self is prononced sell in many places north of the Watford Gap service station. No self respecting northener would say oneself so probably it doesn't rhyme.