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camus
21-04-2004, 03:44
This is taken from my post in the business folder. I'm curious if any wannabe translators want to have a go:

"Мой дядя самых честных правил,
Когда не в шутку занемог,
Он уважать себя заставил
И лучше выдумать не мог.
Его пример другим наука;
Но, боже мой, какая скука
С больным сидеть и день и ночь,
Не отходя ни шагу прочь!
Какое низкое коварство
Полу-живого забавлять,
Ему подушки поправлять,
Печально подносить лекарство,
Вздыхать и думать про себя:
Когда же чорт возьмет тебя!"

Filimon
21-04-2004, 03:51
My uncle -- high ideals inspire him;
but when past joking he fell sick,
he really forced one to admire him --
and never played a shrewder trick.
Let others learn from his example!
But God, how deadly dull to sample
sickroom attendance night and day
and never stir a foot away!
And the sly baseness, fit to throttle,
of entertaining the half-dead:
one smoothes the pillows down in bed,
and glumly serves the medicine bottle,
and sighs, and asks oneself all through:
"When will the devil come for you?"''

camus
21-04-2004, 04:22
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Filimon
[B]My uncle -- high ideals inspire him;
but when past joking he fell sick,
he really forced one to admire him --
and never played a shrewder trick.
Let others learn from his example!
But God, how deadly dull to sample
sickroom attendance night and day
and never stir a foot away!
And the sly baseness, fit to throttle,
of entertaining the half-dead:
one smoothes the pillows down in bed,
and glumly serves the medicine bottle,
and sighs, and asks oneself all through:
"When will the devil come for you?"''

Filimon,

You're pathetic. If you're going to plagiarize at least plagiarize a good translation.

Zachem
21-04-2004, 07:44
My uncle of most honest rules
When sick to death he coughs and drools
And he demands my full respect
With firmness that I can't neglect

All close to death may learn from him
Since chances are extremely slim
That you would see the light of day
When caring for that wretched gay

He lies half-dead - the curse of AIDS
And I replaced a dozen maids
I fix the pillow, give the pills
And pay a mountain of bills

I often wonder when this old
Pathetic man will leave this world?

camus
21-04-2004, 07:52
Don't want to dignify this propoganda

Zachem
21-04-2004, 09:14
I hope now you wouldn't object to me marrying my retarded German shepherd? :)

Limitchik
21-04-2004, 11:40
Well, it's a little rough around the corners. Here's what I came up with:

My uncle of good will
When not in spirit did fall ill
Forced I was respects to pay
No better any other way.
Such example for society
Yet, oh what monotony !
To sit with the ill, day and night
To not steal away, neither left nor right.
What guile best left unsaid
To only amuse the half dead
Righting pillows ‘neath the head
And carry medicine instead
And think without sound,
Devil, take him to the ground !

Criticize away !

Filimon
21-04-2004, 13:41
Originally posted by camus
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Filimon
[B]My uncle -- high ideals inspire him;
but when past joking he fell sick,
he really forced one to admire him --
and never played a shrewder trick.
Let others learn from his example!
But God, how deadly dull to sample
sickroom attendance night and day
and never stir a foot away!
And the sly baseness, fit to throttle,
of entertaining the half-dead:
one smoothes the pillows down in bed,
and glumly serves the medicine bottle,
and sighs, and asks oneself all through:
"When will the devil come for you?"''

Filimon,

You're pathetic. If you're going to plagiarize at least plagiarize a good translation.

Oh, shut your face, will you! Why did you call it translation FUN then? Did I say anywhere it was MY version?

waxwing
21-04-2004, 15:30
camus,
http://masterrussian.net/mforum/index.php
:cool:

waxwing
21-04-2004, 15:33
Oh, just something that interested me:
why is it чорт and not чёрт?
My Russian ain't great, so forgive me if the question is stupid..

camus
21-04-2004, 16:34
Originally posted by Limitchik
Well, it's a little rough around the corners. Here's what I came up with:

My uncle of good will
When not in spirit did fall ill
Forced I was respects to pay
No better any other way.
Such example for society
Yet, oh what monotony !
To sit with the ill, day and night
To not steal away, neither left nor right.
What guile best left unsaid
To only amuse the half dead
Righting pillows ‘neath the head
And carry medicine instead
And think without sound,
Devil, take him to the ground !

Criticize away !

Goody, criticism. My favorite part. For starters you've lost the sarcastic tone of the poem as has everyone else who has made the attempt. Here's a quick line-by-line bitchslippage:

> My uncle of good will.

There's nothing in the text to say that implied the Uncle is good-willed. It just says that he is a most righteous dude.

> When in spirit did fall ill

As opposed to body ? Obviously not a literal translation AND wrong tone. He fell ill, no joke.

> Forced was I respects to pay

Like last respects ? Nah. More likely: son of a bitch made us respect his dying ass.

> Better any other way

Better than what ? The uncle really managed to lay a big guiltrip hence the "couldn't have done a better job even if he tried"

> Such example for society

hmm

> Yet Oh what monotony
....


>To sit with the ill, day and night

....

> What guile best left unsaid

I'd say more like "what a lowly farce"

> To only amuse the half-dead

Where'd you get the "only" from ?

> Righting pillows ‘neath the head

Not bad.

> And carry medicine instead

Who carry medicine instead of what ?

> And think without sound

No way. "without sound" is stoic. Sigh/Heave/Exhale and think

> Devil, take him to the ground

I thought I saw an interrogative, not an imperative.

Pushkin was a precocious, arrogant, hedonistic prick (think Mozart) -- good to keep in mind when doing translations of his work. A valiant (yet flawed attempt) !

Peter

camus
21-04-2004, 16:41
Originally posted by Filimon
Oh, shut your face, will you! Why did you call it translation FUN then? Did I say anywhere it was MY version?

I said "wannabe translators" implying amateurs (or even professionals from expat). If you're going to paste a professional translation at least attribute it.

Peter

sevan
21-04-2004, 16:53
Originally posted by waxwing
Oh, just something that interested me:
why is it ЮПТФ and not ЮЈТФ
My Russian ain't great, so forgive me if the question is stupid..

That's the way they wrote it back then. Or something like that.

Filimon
21-04-2004, 17:05
Originally posted by camus
I said "wannabe translators" implying amateurs (or even professionals from expat). If you're going to paste a professional translation at least attribute it.

Peter

And from what part of your request could I have deduced what you were "implying"? Am I to read your mind?

And what is this thread anyway? Vanity fair for your exaggerated ego? You did not even post your own translation, what gives you right to criticise others?

camus
21-04-2004, 17:09
Originally posted by Filimon
And from what part of your request could I have deduced what you were "implying"? Am I to read your mind?

And what is this thread anyway? Vanity fair for your exaggerated ego? You did not even post your own translation, what gives you right to criticise others?

What part of "wannabe translators" did you not understand ? Also, I can criticise all I want without offering an alternative translation. Deal with it.

Limitchik
21-04-2004, 17:13
Originally posted by camus
Goody, criticism. My favorite part. For starters you've lost the sarcastic tone of the poem as has everyone else who has made the attempt. Here's a quick line-by-line bitchslippage:

[deleted for length's sake and Limitchik's humiliation]

Pushkin was a precocious, arrogant, hedonistic prick (think Mozart) -- good to keep in mind when doing translations of his work. A valiant (yet flawed attempt) !

Peter

Tough jury !

I think I lost a lot to trying to get meter and rhyme fit in. Like pay and way. The result was less emphasis and tone, which, you're right, are probably more important. Anyway, good task.

How about some chastushki for the less poetry-inclined among us ?

Alethea
21-04-2004, 17:13
Originally posted by camus
Also, I can criticise all I want without offering an alternative translation. Deal with it.

That's truly cogent argument.

camus
21-04-2004, 17:14
Originally posted by Alethea
That's truly cogent argument.

Yes it is. Have I missed something ? Is it not my right to criticise at whim ?

Alethea
21-04-2004, 17:16
It's yours. Absolutely. Please note that I'm not arguing with you.

camus
21-04-2004, 17:20
Originally posted by Limitchik
Tough jury !

I think I lost a lot to trying to get meter and rhyme fit in. Like pay and way. The result was less emphasis and tone, which, you're right, are probably more important. Anyway, good task.




Yeah it's a tough cookie. I made a translation which is tone and idiom correct, but it doesn't rhyme worth a damn. I'll attempt to fix that problem in a less sleep-deprived state. I'll submit the work to mass-scrutiny when I do.



How about some chastushki for the less poetry-inclined among us ?

Chastushki like what ? Okudjava ? :)

Peter

Alethea
21-04-2004, 17:21
Chastushki is great idea.

limit, do you mean

По реке плывет топор...?

camus
21-04-2004, 17:21
Originally posted by Alethea
It's yours. Absolutely. Please note that I'm not arguing with you.

Then I congratulate you for recognizing cogence when you see it :)

Limitchik
21-04-2004, 17:25
Camus,

What's okudjava ? I must admit that I was thinking in line with Alethea (recognizing the first line of the one she quoted) :)

Limitchik

camus
21-04-2004, 17:26
Limitchik,

You want chastushki, you got chastushki !

МОЛИТВА

Пока Земля еще вертится,
пока еще ярок свет,
Господи, дай же ты каждому,
чего у него нет:
мудрому дай голову,
трусливому дай коня,
дай счастливому денег...
И не забудь про меня.

Пока Земля еще вертится —
Господи, твоя власть!—
дай рвущемуся к власти
навластвоваться всласть,
дай передышку щедрому,
хоть до исхода дня.
Каину дай раскаяние...
И не забудь про меня.

Я знаю: ты все умеешь,
я верую в мудрость твою,
как верит солдат убитый,
что он проживает в раю,
как верит каждое ухо
тихим речам твоим,
как веруем и мы сами,
не ведая, что творим!

Господи мой Боже,
зеленоглазый мой!
Пока Земля еще вертится,
и это ей странно самой,
пока ей еще хватает
времени и огня,
дай же ты всем понемногу...
И не забудь про меня.

Knock yourself out.

allice
21-04-2004, 17:29
Originally posted by Limitchik
Camus,

What's okudjava ?
Limitchik

You've been here for how long? :D

http://www.litera.ru/stixiya/authors/okudzhava.html

camus
21-04-2004, 17:33
Originally posted by Limitchik
Camus,

What's okudjava ? I must admit that I was thinking in line with Alethea (recognizing the first line of the one she quoted) :)

Limitchik


Okudjava was this bard-like dude who wrote from around 1960 to 1990. He's considered a diety but a large chunk of Russian intelligensia. If you listen to a sufficent number of his songs you will learn that life can be dreary and that Russia is cold in the winter. Buried in the tonage of melancholy he actually has some good lyrics and even some good songs.

allice
21-04-2004, 17:35
hand off Okudzhava :mad: :D seriously, I can't understand how you can not like his mellow and romantic lyrics :)

camus
21-04-2004, 17:37
Originally posted by allice
hand off Okudzhava :mad: :D seriously, I can't understand how you can not like his mellow and romantic lyrics :)

OK... I'm about to commit some more sacrilege but I think his brooding is way too often mistaken for real depth. He does indeed have some deep work but it doesn't represent the bulk of his output. Yeah it's cold in the winter and apparently it's real lonely on the last trollybus :) Molitva ain't half bad though :)

Alethea
21-04-2004, 17:40
Let's get more optimistic.

I created the first line for chastushka .

По Тверской идет Лимитчик...

allice
21-04-2004, 17:40
Well maybe I like him so much because I listened to his music all throughout my childhood. My dad was and is a fan. :) So I'm biased.

Alethea
21-04-2004, 17:42
No, even better (Limit, you will se a difference!):

По Тверской идет лимитчик

camus
21-04-2004, 17:47
Originally posted by allice
Well maybe I like him so much because I listened to his music all throughout my childhood. My dad was and is a fan. :) So I'm biased.

You have been exposed to The Disease. Saying "Okudjava sucks" to a Russian Intellectual is like insulting a hardcore football fan's favorite team. The difference is that the Russian Intellectual (especially of the older generation) is way more violent.

allice
21-04-2004, 17:50
Originally posted by camus
You have been exposed to The Disease. Saying "Okudjava sucks" to a Russian intellectual is like insulting a hardcore football fan's favorite team. The difference is that the Russian intellectual is way more violent.

I'm no intellectual. I'm a lawyer wannabe . :D

Filimon
21-04-2004, 17:55
Originally posted by camus
What part of "wannabe translators" did you not understand ? Also, I can criticise all I want without offering an alternative translation. Deal with it.

Oh really? Then I can quote and/or copy all I want without referring to the source! Deal with THAT, Mr Wannabe Critic!

And BTW, Okudjava wrote the stuff which is as close to Chastushki as your attempts to criticise to objectivity!

There was a geek called Camus on expat
He was dull and could not get it up
So he wrote crappy posts
and, what mattered the most,
He thought all his ideas were fab
:D

camus
21-04-2004, 18:00
Originally posted by Filimon
Oh really? Then I can quote and/or copy all I want without referring to the source! Deal with THAT, Mr Wannabe Critic!



Yes you can and in some jurisdictions you can get sued for it. I just called you out for the plagiarist that you are :)



And BTW, Okudjava wrote the stuff which is as close to Chastushki as your attempts to criticise to objectivity!




We've caught a live one ! BTW, are you familiar with the term "facetious" ?




There was a geek called Camus on expat
He was dull and could not get it up
So he wrote crappy posts
and, what mattered the most,
He thought all his ideas
were fab


I see that you have been deeply influenced by the great opus "Man from Nantuckett". Persevere and perhaps some day you'll be able to write a limerick that actually rhymes :)

Filimon
21-04-2004, 18:08
Originally posted by camus
Yes you can and in some jurisdictions you can get sued for it. I just called you out for the plagiarist that you are :) ]

Then sue me. Or are you just all mouth?



We've caught a live one ! BTW, are you familiar with the term "facetious" ?

Yes, I am, since all my posts are such, including the very first one, but your "holier than thou" measly self just failed to spot it, didn't it? Are you familiar with the term "irony"?


I see that you have been deeply influenced by the great opus "Man from Nantuckett". Persevere and perhaps some day you'll be able to write a limerick that actually rhymes :)

I also know one about the "Young Nurse from Heaver"! How about that? Also I do not claim to be a limerick-writer of any kind, unlike you with your pretentious criticisms. Don't despair though. Persevere, and one day you will be able to write a critical opus that actually makes sense :)

Filimon
21-04-2004, 18:24
Originally posted by camus
I'm all mouth. Which reminds me: PLAGIARIST. Rot in hell.

That figures. Wannabe critic nicknamed after a brandy.


Yes... huh ?

Huh yourself :) you know as they say in Russia: if you can't shit, don't torture your arsehole.


If you don't fancy yourself a limerick writer, why do you subject us to such lousy examples of this art form ? Let me try:]

Well, I shall answer that. Since you consider you can subject us to such lousy examples of the great art fom of literature criticism, I figured what the hell, I can do it with limericks. If crap flies your way, just throw it back. Your sorry attempt at a limerick just proves my point.

Regards (ish),

Filimon

camus
21-04-2004, 18:43
Originally posted by Filimon
That figures. Wannabe critic nicknamed after a brandy.



That's the last straw. French-Algerian existentialists aren't distilled spirits.



Huh yourself :) you know as they say in Russia: if you can't shit, don't torture your arsehole.


I think the full effect of this saying was lost in translation.






Well, I shall answer that. Since you consider you can subject us to such lousy examples of the great art fom of literature criticism, I figured what the hell, I can do it with limericks. If crap flies your way, just throw it back. Your sorry attempt at a limerick just proves my point.


Kill yourself now. You can't write a rhyming limerick, can't throw together a decent putdown, and you're a PLAGIARIST. Just end it.

PS. My limerick rhymes. Yours doesn't. 1-0.

Filimon
21-04-2004, 18:44
There once was a man called Camus
Just as smart as an oak canoe
He thought it'd be funny
To turn shit into honey
But instead turned his brain into goo

:D

Filimon
21-04-2004, 18:46
You are full of shit. You don't get irony. your putdowns are not even funny. You criticise something you have no idea about. And my limerick rhymes too.

3-1. Eat your heart out :)

camus
21-04-2004, 18:50
Originally posted by Filimon
There once was a man called Camus
Just as smart as an oak canoe
He thought it'd be funny
To turn shit into honey
But instead turned his brain into goo

:D

Woohoo. You've made a rhyming limerick. On your second try. And it's full of lame cliches. Good work. You're still a plagiarist though.

Filimon
21-04-2004, 18:58
Originally posted by camus
Woohoo. You've made a rhyming limerick. On your second try. And it's full of lame cliches. Good work. You're still a plagiarist though.

whatever! I have already told you, I have posted that translation by Charles Johnston (agreed, not the best one) for fun (as the name of the thread suggested) and to see the reaction. If you consider that plagiarism, that's your problem. It's easy not to plagiarise. It's difficult to stop thinking you are the centre of the universe. So I feel sorry for you.

You were the one who started getting insulting without explanation. If this is your usual way to speak to people, I feel sorry for you.

In any event, you every post reaks of narcissism. "It's better to keep quiet and let everyone think you are a fool than to open your mouth and prove it". Start your search engines...

Anyway, I am bored of you. Piss off, pretentious prick.

camus
21-04-2004, 19:19
Originally posted by Filimon
whatever! I have already told you, I have posted that translation by Charles Johnston (agreed, not the best one) for fun (as the name of the thread suggested) and to see


And I've already pointed out that my post said "wannabe translators" not "wankers who rip off lousy professional work". You posted without attribution and became hostile when called on it. Furthermore, I find it interesting that both you and CanGuy posted the same translation without proper attribution (CanGuy claims to have written it himself)



the reaction. If you consider that plagiarism, that's your problem. It's easy not to plagiarise. It's difficult to stop thinking you are the centre of the universe. So I feel sorry for you.


I am the center of the Universe, especially of my own.



You were the one who started getting insulting without explanation. If this is your usual way to speak to people, I feel sorry for you.


Insulted ? Me? No way. I just think that plagiarizing is lame and that your limericks suck.



Anyway, I am bored of you. Piss off, pretentious prick.

OK. But I'll continue to taunt you when it's fun. Plagiarist.

PS. Okudjava sucks

Filimon
21-04-2004, 19:55
Originally posted by camus

And I've already pointed out that my post said "wannabe translators" not "wankers who rip off lousy professional work". You posted without attribution and became hostile when called on it. Furthermore, I find it interesting that both you and CanGuy posted the same translation without proper attribution (CanGuy laims to have written it himself)

Would you not have become hostile when someone calls you "pathetic" for no apparent reason? What stopped you from simply enquiring whether I considered the work my own? Was it your own feeling of self-righteousness or just plain genetic rudeness?




I am the center of the Universe, especially of my own.



Good for you!


Insulted ? Me? No way. I just think that plagiarizing is lame and that your limericks suck.

So do yours, so what? As for insults - see above.



OK. But I'll continue to taunt you when it's fun. Plagiarist.

Knock yourself out. Don't trip over your tongue.


PS. Okudjava sucks

Not as much as your lame posts.

camus
21-04-2004, 19:59
Filimon,

I thought you were bored with my prententious ass ? Are you out of this pissing match or would you like to continue ?

To reiterate for the gazillionth time my original post said "wannabe translators". Understand ? Everyone else apparently did.

Olga
21-04-2004, 20:04
Originally posted by Alethea
No, even better (Limit, you will se a difference!):

По Тверской идет лимитчик
-\\-
Сверху падает кирпич

(Alethea, clean your PM box:)

Filimon
21-04-2004, 20:24
Originally posted by camus
Filimon,

I thought you were bored with my prententious ass ? Are you out of this pissing match or would you like to continue ?

To reiterate for the gazillionth time my original post said "wannabe translators". Understand ? Everyone else apparently did.

To reiterate for the ten gazillionth time, I did understand. I posted it FOR FUN, it was IRONIC, esp. since the translation itself was not that good. What part of that concept don't you get? If I had attributed it that would not have been fun, that would have been plain irrelevant. There was absolutely no need to get abusive as you did. Hence the "pissing contest".

Anyway, do whatever you want: taunt, jerk off, translate "Mukha-Tsokotukha" into urdu...I am out of here.

camus
21-04-2004, 20:30
Originally posted by Filimon
To reiterate for the ten gazillionth time, I did understand. I posted it FOR FUN, it was IRONIC, esp. since the translation itself was not that good. What part of that concept don't you get? If I had attributed it that would not have been fun, that would have been plain irrelevant. There was absolutely no need to get abusive as you did. Hence the "pissing contest".

Anyway, do whatever you want: taunt, jerk off, translate "Mukha-Tsokotukha" into urdu...I am out of here.

Filimon,

Perhaps my sense of humour does not translate well to the Internet. This whole discussion to me, is tongue-in-cheek. I'm sorry if you feel abused.

Peace,

Peter

PS. Please attribute in the future.

Olga
21-04-2004, 20:32
Camus, it's curious that you didn't attribute your source text either:)

It does look like Filimon wanted to pretend it was HIS translation, BUT he couldn't possibly hope to get away with the plagiarism could he, given how easy it is for anybody to enter a couple of his lines in the search engine and find out it already exists? May be he just wanted to create a funny exchange of well-known non-attributed texts?

Filimon
21-04-2004, 20:34
Originally posted by Olga
Camus, it's curious that you didn't attribute your source text either:)

It does look like Filimon wanted to pretend it was HIS translation, BUT he couldn't possibly hope to get away with the plagiarism could he, given how easy it is for anybody to enter a couple of his lines in the search engine and find out it already exists? May be he just wanted to create a funny exchange of well-known non-attributed texts?

DUH!

camus
21-04-2004, 20:35
Originally posted by Olga
Camus, it's curious that you didn't attribute your source text either:)

It does look like Filimon wanted to pretend it was HIS translation, BUT he couldn't possibly hope to get away with the plagiarism could he, given how easy it is for anybody to enter a couple of his lines in the search engine and find out it already exists? May be he just wanted to create a funny exchange of well-known non-attributed texts?

Olga,

I think my source attributes itself to most people :) As for pretending, just take a look at this quote from CanGuy:

"This is what I got so far.

My uncle-- high ideals inspire him;
but when past joking he fell sick,
he really forced one to admire him,

Having trouble rhyming the next line!"

He vehemently denies that this is a rip-off.

Judge for yourself,

Peter

Filimon
21-04-2004, 20:37
Мой дядя самых честных правил
А остальных в тюрьму сажал

(с) Filimon 2004

Olga
21-04-2004, 20:51
Originally posted by camus
Olga,

I think my source attributes itself to most people :) As for pretending, just take a look at this quote from CanGuy:

"This is what I got so far.

My uncle-- high ideals inspire him;
but when past joking he fell sick,
he really forced one to admire him,

Having trouble rhyming the next line!"

He vehemently denies that this is a rip-off.

Judge for yourself,

Peter Camus, your source attributes itself for most 'RUSSIAN speaking' people, and Filimons text attributes itself for all internet users.
I saw this post of CanGuy, credit to him for very carefully phrasing his posts: the only thing he denies is that he plagiarised Filimon and his phrase: "this is what I got so far" does not exclusively mean "this is my translation".

Guys, I had fun:) Thanks!

camus
21-04-2004, 20:54
Originally posted by Olga
Camus, your source attributes itself for most 'RUSSIAN speaking' people, and Filimons text attributes itself for all internet users.
I saw this post of CanGuy, credit to him for very carefully phrasing his posts: the only thing he denies is that he plagiarised Filimon and his phrase: "this is what I got so far" does not exclusively mean "this is my translation".

Guys, I had fun:) Thanks!

I'm assuming he only "got this far" because he's really bad with cut and paste and he's "having trouble rhyming the next line" because he needs to sound it out and it's not rhyming to him yet. Yeah right. People do stupid things. I'm beyond asking why :)

PS. I wasn't paranoid enough to second-guess this translation until I saw the same text in both Filimon's and CanGuy's posts.

Olga
21-04-2004, 21:00
The fact that he's having trouble with 'the next line' doesn't mean he had the same trouble with the first lines. A famous trick: if you put things next to each other people are likely to see it as" cause and effect":) Very canny-guy-like:)

camus
21-04-2004, 21:03
Originally posted by Filimon
"Assumption is the mother of al ****-ups" (c)

Having trouble with identifying sarcasm again ? :)

camus
21-04-2004, 21:03
Originally posted by Olga
The fact that he's having trouble with 'the next line' doesn't mean he had the same trouble with the first lines. A famous trick: if you put things next to each other people are likely to see it as" cause and effect":) Very canny-guy-like:)

Olga,

You aren't making any sense, sorry.

Olga
21-04-2004, 21:08
Originally posted by camus
Olga,

You aren't making any sense, sorry. Ah, I see, you edited your post and I was replying to your initial version. Sorry, can't catch up with you:)

camus
21-04-2004, 21:09
Originally posted by Olga
Ah, I see, you edited your post and I was replying to your initial version. Sorry, can't catch up with you:)

Please give me a plausible explanation as to why he's "having trouble rhyming the next line".

Filimon
21-04-2004, 21:14
Pushkin was a precocious, arrogant, hedonistic prick (think Mozart)...

My uncle's sins were as uncertain
As his well-being had become
And when he thought that it was curtains
He made us feel like lowly scum
His lesson's not to be forgotten
But Holy Jesus, how rotten
It is to make us serve him drugs,
And wipe his arse - that truly sucks
It's such a bummer, shame and pity
To entertain a dying prick
To right his pillow with a stick
To bring him drugs in bogus sorrow
And, sighing, murmur to oneself:
"I wish you'd gone to bloody hell!"

(c) Filimon 2004

Olga
21-04-2004, 21:18
Originally posted by camus
Please give me a plausible explanation as to why he's "having trouble rhyming the next line". If you mean why he is SAYING he's having trouble: to 'imply' that he had the same trouble with the first line BUT ALSO to leave an escape for himself in case somebody exposes his plagiarizm, then he can say: the fact that I'm having trouble with 'the next line' doesn't mean etc.(see my post above)

camus
21-04-2004, 21:23
Originally posted by Olga
If you mean why he is SAYING he's having trouble: to 'imply' that he had the same trouble with the first line BUT ALSO to leave an escape for himself in case somebody exposes his plagiarizm, then he can say: the fact that I'm having trouble with 'the next line' doesn't mean etc.(see my post above)


Olga,

There are two options:

1. He's writing the translation himself and he's having trouble rhyming the next line because he can't think of rhyming words in context.

2. He's copying someone elses's translation in which case there is no real chance of trouble as the text already rhymes.

So #2 is out given that there's no occassion for trouble. #1 is the only remaining reasonable option and it's a lie.

Of course it's possible to stretch the limits of feasibility and claim that he's doing a hybrid translation (first stanza is copied and he's nz having trouble coming with the second on his own) but it's intentionally misleading and so contrived that it's laughable.

Cut the sophistry please,

Peter

Olga
21-04-2004, 21:46
Camus, you forgot one other option: he is copying but trying to make it look like he is translating, using the little tricky phrases like "I'm having trouble etc". He gave us only a small part first to see if it'll work, and after the "project" failed, he stopped.

sindbad
22-04-2004, 14:16
Filimon, I like it , you got both - rithm and irony and it is hard, really hard to translate Pushkin ( or any russian poetry to that extent...and I have a right to say so as a Russian and poetry lover) Camus! looking forward to your version!!!!

Olga
22-04-2004, 14:29
Yes, Filimon's piece is brilliant. Camus, do you agree? (Ppl, don't be cruel, don't press Camus for his version)

camus
22-04-2004, 14:39
Somewhat amusing ? Perhaps. Brilliant ? No.
The Pushkin version was sarcastic but it wasn't crude.

Filimon
22-04-2004, 14:45
Originally posted by camus
Somewhat amusing ? Perhaps. Brilliant ? No.
The Pushkin version was sarcastic but it wasn't crude.

Where did I say mine isn't?

Filimon
22-04-2004, 14:48
Originally posted by sindbad
Filimon, I like it , you got both - rithm and irony and it is hard, really hard to translate Pushkin ( or any russian poetry to that extent...and I have a right to say so as a Russian and poetry lover) Camus! looking forward to your version!!!!

thanks. I am pissing about, of course, but I think I got the rhythm right. After all, it is "Translation FUN" :) Huh, Camus?:nut:

camus
22-04-2004, 14:53
Originally posted by Filimon
Where did I say mine isn't?

You didn't :) But I think referring to your work as a brilliant translation of Pushkin is pushing it.

At least it's not anti-gay propoganda.

PS. You did indeed get most (but not all) of the rhyme pattern down.

Filimon
22-04-2004, 14:59
Originally posted by camus
You didn't :) But I think referring to your work as a brilliant translation of Pushkin is pushing it.

At least it's not anti-gay propoganda.

PS. You did indeed get most (but not all) of the rhyme pattern down.

OK, where did I say it was brilliant or agreed that it was?

And what's wrong with my "rhyme pattern" (whatever that is)?

camus
22-04-2004, 15:03
Originally posted by Filimon
OK, where did I say it was brilliant or agreed that it was?

And what's wrong with my "rhyme pattern" (whatever that is)?

Jeez man. Was I even talking to YOU? I believe that Olga was the one who referred to it as "brilliant" and asked my opinion.

As for the rhyme pattern, it's:

a
b
a
b
c
c
d
d
e
f
f
e
g
g

Hope that helps.

Filimon
22-04-2004, 15:09
I know what the pattern for the 4-step iambus looks like. I am asking for an opinion as to where I did not get it right.

Olga
22-04-2004, 15:13
Camus, it is brilliant because it is great FUN to read. Good luck in checking paterns and rhymes to a micron, but do you remember that Pushkin himself pointed out that absolute perfection is not fun?

camus
22-04-2004, 15:14
Originally posted by Filimon
I know what the pattern for the 4-step iambus looks like. I am asking for an opinion as to where I did not get it right.

Your version:

a
b
a
b
c
c
d
e
f
g
g
h
i
k

camus
22-04-2004, 15:17
Originally posted by Olga
Camus, it is brilliant because it is great FUN to read. Good luck in checking paterns and rhymes to a micron, but do you remember that Pushkin himself pointed out that absolute perfection is not fun?

Uh, Olga, the whole thing about Evgeniy Onegin is its frightful consistency.

Filimon
22-04-2004, 15:20
My uncle's sins were as uncertain A
As his well-being had become B
And when he thought that it was curtains A
He made us feel like lowly scum B
His lesson's not to be forgotten C
But Holy Jesus, how rotten C
It is to make us serve him drugs, D
And wipe his arse - that truly sucks D
It's such a bummer, shame and pity E
To entertain a dying prick F
To right his pillow with a stick F
To bring him drugs in bogus sorrow G
And, sighing, murmur to oneself: H
"I wish you'd gone to bloody hell!" H

What the hell is your problem?

camus
22-04-2004, 15:23
Originally posted by Filimon
My uncle's sins were as uncertain A
As his well-being had become B
And when he thought that it was curtains A
He made us feel like lowly scum B
His lesson's not to be forgotten C
But Holy Jesus, how rotten C
It is to make us serve him drugs, D
And wipe his arse - that truly sucks D
It's such a bummer, shame and pity E
To entertain a dying prick F
To right his pillow with a stick F
To bring him drugs in bogus sorrow G
And, sighing, murmur to oneself: H
"I wish you'd gone to bloody hell!" H

What the hell is your problem?

Dude your "E" and "G" are unmatched and "onself" does not rhyme with "hell". "drugs" and "sucks" is dubious. I think my "problem" is self-explanatory.

Filimon
22-04-2004, 15:32
Originally posted by camus
Dude your "E" and "G" are unmatched and "onself" does not rhyme with "hell". I think my "problem" is self-explanatory.

Agree with E and G

Disagree categorically with the rest. Can't you hear it? Or do you think every phrase should finish with the same letter in order to rhyme.

Does "virtue" rhyme with "hurt you"?

camus
22-04-2004, 15:37
Originally posted by Filimon
Agree with E and G


Disagree categorically with the rest. Can't you hear it? Or do you think every phrase should finish with the same letter in order to rhyme.



Well Pushkin seems to think so, so for the purposes of this poem I'd say yes.



Does "virtue" rhyme with "hurt you"?



"virtue" and "hurt you" is a weak rhyme. I'd use it if I wanted to intentionally break rythm a bit. "oneself" and "hell" don't rhyme at all, period. We can put it up to a vote if you don't agree :)

Filimon
22-04-2004, 15:47
Originally posted by camus
Well Pushkin seems to think so, so for the purposes of this poem I'd say yes.


"virtue" and "hurt you" is a weak rhyme. I'd use it if I wanted to intentionally break rythm a bit. "oneself" and "hell" don't rhyme at all, period. We can put it up to a vote if you don't agree :)

Pushkin wrote in Russian, where there are slightly different rules of pronunciation, don't you find?

Yeah, let's do it. Just don't take it out of context. I say

"And, sighing, murmur to oneself
I wish you'd gone to bloody hell"

rhymes. What say you GUYS!

"virtue" and "hurt you" is not my rhyme. It's Kipling's, "If", remember? "If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue"?

Olga
22-04-2004, 15:49
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Filimon
Disagree categorically with the rest. Can't you hear it? Or do you think every phrase should finish with the same letter in order to rhyme.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by camus
Well Pushkin seems to think so, so for the purposes of this poem I'd say yes. Camus, is it true that you expect English words to conform to this "same last letter" pattern as Russian words - despite the spelling rules being very different?

Do you realize that the more "frightful" the consistency is in original POETRY the less possible it is to render it in translation?

camus
22-04-2004, 15:50
Originally posted by Olga
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Filimon
Disagree categorically with the rest. Can't you hear it? Or do you think every phrase should finish with the same letter in order to rhyme.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Camus, is it true that you expect English words to conform to this "same last letter" pattern as Russian words - despite the spelling rules being very different?



yes.



Do you realize that the more "frightful" the consistency is in original POETRY the less possible it is to render it in translation?


Not quite. English is less flexible, but it's also much larger. I believe it's possible to make it work. You're not as insightful as you think you are, Olga.

Shaun
22-04-2004, 15:55
well you two really come on. pretty pathetic argument.

though camus, you are being more of a twat than filimon. obviously when you translate poetry you have to lose a degree of meaning and rhyme/rhythm. To what degree you balance this is up to the translator. But its obviously much harder to rhyme in English than in Russian due to lack of uniform case/adjective endings. 'oneself' and 'hell' do not rhyme. but they are assonant. i dont think you can expect a russian-english translation to keep perfect rhyme without totally losing all resemblance to the original.

Filimon
22-04-2004, 15:58
English ... larger? in what way?

There are far more mute consonants in English, which create numerous homonyms that look different, but sound the same. Also audibly some words sound very similar whilst looking nothing like each other

If you can fill the unforgiving MINUTE
With sixty seconds worth of distance RUN
Yours is the Earth and everything that's IN IT
And, which is more, you'll be a Man, my SON

How you you demand that the English words end the same to rhyme is beyond me.

camus
22-04-2004, 15:58
Originally posted by Shaun
well you two really come on. pretty pathetic argument.

though camus, you are being more of a twat than filimon. obviously when you translate poetry you have to lose a degree of meaning and rhyme/rhythm. To what degree you balance this is up to the translator. But its obviously much harder to rhyme in English than in Russian due to lack of uniform case/adjective endings. 'oneself' and 'hell' do not rhyme. but they are assonant. i dont think you can expect a russian-english translation to keep perfect rhyme without totally losing all resemblance to the original.

Losing all resemblence to the original ? No. Losing some resemblence to keep tone and rhyme ? Yes.

Olga
22-04-2004, 15:59
Camus, if you didn't understand about "last letter" I meant things like mute E or ugh for example, that don't exist in Russian, and such like.

Do you know that translating prose and translating poetry have one principal difference: in poetry most important task is to preserve imagery, not to observe patterns.

camus
22-04-2004, 16:00
Originally posted by Filimon
English ... larger? in what way?

There are far more mute consonants in English, which create numerous homonyms that look different, but sound the same. Also audibly some words sound very similar whilst looking nothing like each other

If you can fill the unforgiving MINUTE
With sixty seconds worth of distance RUN
Yours is the Earth and everything that's IN IT
And, which is more, you'll be a Man, my SON

How you you demand that the English words end the same to rhyme is beyond me.

Oh dear. The rigid DEFINITION of rhyme dictates that words end the same way. As for English being bigger, the vocabulary of the English language is perhaps a whole order of magnitude larger than of Russian. It's easier to finding rhyming words when you have a lot of them to choose from.

camus
22-04-2004, 16:02
Originally posted by Olga
Camus, if you didn't understand about "last letter" I meant things like mute E or ugh for example, that don't exist in Russian, and such like.

Do you know that translating prose and translating poetry have one principal difference: in poetry most important task is to preserve imagery, not to observe patterns.

Olga,

I'm sorry, but you're hopeless. If you're translating Tsvetaeva by all means the imagery is paramount. Onegin is a TECHNICAL work with LITTLE IMAGERY it.

Shaun
22-04-2004, 16:05
Pushkin was (I am told) the greatest poet in the Russian language. No disrespect to Filimon or any other translator but they are in 99.999% of cases not going to have the same poetic talent. I would question whether it is ever worthwhile reading poetry in translation but if it is, then it is to grasp the IDEAS, not to hear an inferior poet's rhyming ditty.

Added to this, rhyming in Russian seems to go down more easily than in English - cf early Shakespeare with neat rhymes sounding fairly trite and ridiculous (often) with later, more mature Shakespeare where the rhymes are often more ambiguous.

I would much rather read an intelligent, thoughtful translation, which maybe even included a translator's note as to the original rhyme, which kept the meaning of the original, while making every effort to keep the rhyme and rhythm where possible, than a tacky limerick.

camus
22-04-2004, 16:07
Shaun,

Pushkin is perhaps the greatest poetic technician of the Russian language. As such, I think it's imperative than any translation of his work be technically impressive. But even that is secondary to the latest thread. Filimon claimed that he had "completely preserved" the rhyme and I disputed that assertion.






Originally posted by Shaun
Pushkin was (I am told) the greatest poet in the Russian language. No disrespect to Filimon or any other translator but they are in 99.999% of cases not going to have the same poetic talent. I would question whether it is ever worthwhile reading poetry in translation but if it is, then it is to grasp the IDEAS, not to hear an inferior poet's rhyming ditty.

Added to this, rhyming in Russian seems to go down more easily than in English - cf early Shakespeare with neat rhymes sounding fairly trite and ridiculous (often) with later, more mature Shakespeare where the rhymes are often more ambiguous.

I would much rather read an intelligent, thoughtful translation, which maybe even included a translator's note as to the original rhyme, which kept the meaning of the original, while making every effort to keep the rhyme and rhythm where possible, than a tacky limerick.

Shaun
22-04-2004, 16:16
but, blin, i think the russian language is much more open to technical trickery and fireworks than the english.

the question has to be: WHAT IS THE POINT.

Evgeni Onegin, as well as all this techical stuff, is also an interesting story, obliquely political, an interesting view on a society that functions through reflections of foreign customs, and lots more. THIS is what would be interesting to the person who has to read great poetry in a translated medium. Not SOMEONE ELSE's attempts to render technicality in a different medium!

camus
22-04-2004, 16:19
Originally posted by Shaun
but, blin, i think the russian language is much more open to technical trickery and fireworks than the english.

the question has to be: WHAT IS THE POINT.

Evgeni Onegin, as well as all this techical stuff, is also an interesting story, obliquely political, an interesting view on a society that functions through reflections of foreign customs, and lots more. THIS is what would be interesting to the person who has to read great poetry in a translated medium. Not SOMEONE ELSE's attempts to render technicality in a different medium!

One can tell an "interesting story" in prose. In fact one can often avoid the "story" altogether and get straight to the point. I'm not going to debate the relative virtues of these things, but the fact remains that Pushkin chose to tell a story wrapped in technically impressive poetic structure

Olga
22-04-2004, 16:25
Originally posted by Shaun
I would question whether it is ever worthwhile reading poetry in translation but if it is, then it is to grasp the IDEAS, not to hear an inferior poet's rhyming ditty. Exactly. Camus is not hopeless so there's a chance he'll understand if we put it in several different ways (imagery, ideas, we have more:).
Camus, I'm not very insightful but even I see enough imagery in Onegin to call it a real poetry. If it was all that "frightfully" techical than a computer program could translate it perfectly well.

Shaun
22-04-2004, 16:28
but the fact remains that Pushkin chose to tell a story wrapped in technically impressive poetic structure ...

... a structure which the only way to appreciate it is to LEARN RUSSIAN and read it in the goddamn original.

camus
22-04-2004, 16:29
Originally posted by Shaun
...

... a structure which the only way to appreciate it is to LEARN RUSSIAN and read it in the goddamn original.

You just HAVE to argue about something don't you ? :)

Shaun
22-04-2004, 16:41
yes - i was thinking 'what a couple of pedantic idiots arguing about shite', and instead of ignoring you, decided to become one!

Filimon
22-04-2004, 17:21
Originally posted by Shaun
yes - i was thinking 'what a couple of pedantic idiots arguing about shite', and instead of ignoring you, decided to become one!

I'd say 'talking shite'. We are arguing about Pushkin, after all :)

Alethea
22-04-2004, 17:30
I know an old Russian lady who worships Pushkin's poetry.

There is always Onegin edition on her bedside table, bookmarked on page 8.

It's time to move on, guys.

camus
22-04-2004, 18:26
Originally posted by Alethea
I know an old Russian lady who worships Pushkin's poetry.

There is always Onegin edition on her bedside table, bookmarked on page 8.

It's time to move on, guys.

Old flamers never die -- they just move to a new thread.

Alethea
22-04-2004, 18:27
How about badminton this weekend, Peter? :p

camus
22-04-2004, 18:30
Originally posted by Alethea
How about badminton this weekend, Peter? :p

Thanks, someone already offered, but I'm sick. I'm going to start up again next week though :)

Alethea
22-04-2004, 18:37
I only mean you can start badminton thread again :p

By the way, is your avatar a picture for a song
Прокати нас , Петруша , на тракторе?

I found a better one.:p:p:p

camus
22-04-2004, 18:43
Originally posted by Alethea
I only mean you can start badminton thread again :p

By the way, is your avatar a picture for a song
Прокати нас , Петруша , на тракторе?



No, I'm incapable of such allusions; it's just a picture from a series of animations I find (ocassionally) funny. http://www.antimult.ru

Badminton threads are a good way to find out who all the flakes are. Out of perhaps 20 positive responses only 1 person will actually show up.

Doesn't matter now, though: the weather is good and outdoor tennis is within my budget.

polly
23-04-2004, 00:25
i haven't the masochism in me to read each of these threads (and not for the reason you might suspect.)
Has Judge Camus posted his own translation of the Puskhin Uncle thing? because I think he should, and then take it as good as he gives. Because i saw it, and i'm sorry but i am not overly impressed. sure it's not as bad as some of the things on here, and i make no claims to have done better but...
B U T
la la la

camus
23-04-2004, 00:27
Originally posted by polly
i haven't the masochism in me to read each of these threads (and not for the reason you might suspect.)
Has Judge Camus posted his own translation of the Puskhin Uncle thing? because I think he should, and then take it as good as he gives. Because i saw it, and i'm sorry but i am not overly impressed. sure it's not as bad as some of the things on here, and i make no claims to have done better but...
B U T
la la la

polly,

It's well within your rights not to be overly impressed, although it'd be nice if can you be civil about it and explain why you're "not impressed".

Peter

PS. I have some issues with my own translation as well. It's not perfect and I don't claim that it is.

polly
23-04-2004, 00:36
oh don't take it all wrong petercamus.
i guess my posts seem curt -- i'm doing massive multitasking and stressed, and finals, and finding publishers, and etcetcetc so:
grain of salt.
it takes me more than five minutes to prepare constructive criticism for someone else's work. when i do present CC, it is nice to have the other person there to actually have a discussion instead of all these random interruptive posts.
you know what i mean.
if you want a serious CC outline or something, well i guess so. but you will have to wait!! =)

camus
23-04-2004, 00:41
Originally posted by polly
oh don't take it all wrong petercamus.
i guess my posts seem curt -- i'm doing massive multitasking and stressed, and finals, and finding publishers, and etcetcetc so:
grain of salt.
it takes me more than five minutes to prepare constructive criticism for someone else's work. when i do present CC, it is nice to have the other person there to actually have a discussion instead of all these random interruptive posts.
you know what i mean.
if you want a serious CC outline or something, well i guess so. but you will have to wait!! =)

CONSTRUCTIVE and INFORMED are the keywords. If you can satisfy those requirements, I'd love to hear your thoughts :)

polly
23-04-2004, 00:46
Ook you just lemme know when the horse is dead.

How many times shall i repeat that I haven't read the work? I'm not going to start over the weekend. I'm afraid that in this situation your definition of "informed," or excuse me, "INFORMED," is subjective.
You want the last word?

You've got it!

Over and out.

Interpreter
23-04-2004, 14:27
To Camus and Filimon:

Vladimir Nabokov and Edmund Wilson were friends for twenty-five years. They worked together, partied together, and corresponded extensively, engaging in polite arguments about translation. Then in 1965, Nabokov published his translation of Pushkin's Eugene Onegin.

Wilson--with a lukewarm apology to his friend for whom he felt a "warm affection, sometimes chilled by exasperation"-- wrote a blistering review in the New York Review of Books.

It led to a public literary brouhaha, one of the bloodiest of the century. The two former bosom buddies were estranged over something that most people would view as the insignificant matter of how to take words from one place to another.

Six years later, having learned that Wilson was ill, Nabokov wrote a detente-initiating letter: "Please believe that I have long ceased to bear you a grudge for your incomprehensible incomprehension of Pushkin's and Nabokov's Onegin."

camus
23-04-2004, 14:49
Originally posted by Interpreter
To Camus and Filimon:

Vladimir Nabokov and Edmund Wilson were friends for twenty-five years. They worked together, partied together, and corresponded extensively, engaging in polite arguments about translation. Then in 1965, Nabokov published his translation of Pushkin's Eugene Onegin.

Wilson--with a lukewarm apology to his friend for whom he felt a "warm affection, sometimes chilled by exasperation"-- wrote a blistering review in the New York Review of Books.

It led to a public literary brouhaha, one of the bloodiest of the century. The two former bosom buddies were estranged over something that most people would view as the insignificant matter of how to take words from one place to another.

Six years later, having learned that Wilson was ill, Nabokov wrote a detente-initiating letter: "Please believe that I have long ceased to bear you a grudge for your incomprehensible incomprehension of Pushkin's and Nabokov's Onegin."

Uhh... Do you have any actual critique to offer or are you just going to bitch like most everyone else does on this board ?

Telling me my translation is shit does not offend me but it's not particularly interesting to hear unless the "shit" designation can be logically validated.

Shaun
23-04-2004, 15:36
jesus, spikey. the guy was just telling an interesting and relevant story... where in there did you see him saying your translation was shit????? lunatics, the lot of you!

your translation's shit, by the way...

camus
23-04-2004, 15:39
Originally posted by Shaun
jesus, spikey. the guy was just telling an interesting and relevant story... where in there did you see him saying your translation was shit????? lunatics, the lot of you!

your translation's shit, by the way...

Read the thread, understand the (inaccurate) allusion, then comment.

PS. Check the parallel thread in Business Discussions.

Interpreter
23-04-2004, 15:55
Sorry but I won't offer any critique because you can very seldom take it without adding "bitching" or "Kindly remove your head from your posterior" - as you told me in Business folder. Try to change your hostile style and you'll see that people will get much more willing to talk to you.

camus
23-04-2004, 15:57
Originally posted by Interpreter
Sorry but I won't offer any critique because you can very seldom take it without adding "bitching" or "Kindly remove your head from your posterior" - as you told me in Business folder. Try to change your hostile style and you'll see that people will get much more willing to talk to you.

My "hostile style" is in direct response to the hostility that I've been on the receiving end of (yours included). Be civil (passive-aggressive doesn't count) and I'll reciprocate.

This thread was originally created because I was curious to see what translations people would come up with. Only a single person (Limitchik) has tried to provide a legitimate translation. Apart from that there have been two plagiarists and one guy using Pushkin as a vehicle for his anti-gay propoganda.

I'm getting pretty sick of this crap.

Peter

PS. In regards to bitching, that is indeed what you are doing -- this thread already has enough noise in it.

Interpreter
23-04-2004, 16:14
A big part of your problem is that you see hostility where there's none (me included). As everybody here can see, there are no more neutral words that those that I am using.

See my above post for why nobody except Limitchik (your buddy:) and our unique hero Filimon dared to offer anything for your scrutiny...

camus
23-04-2004, 16:25
Originally posted by Interpreter
A big part of your problem is that you see hostility where there's none (me included). As everybody here can see, there are no more neutral words that those that I am using.



Perhaps there's some merit to that but I've seen enough idiocy from Filimon and Olga to make me see red everytime there's a new post here.





See my above post for why nobody except Limitchik (your buddy:) and our unique hero Filimon dared to offer anything for your scrutiny...



See this is annoying. If you actually go and read the thread you'll see how it evolved. My only initial "hostility" were two half-playful comments (at least in my mind) to the two people who plagiarized the same translation (Filimon being one of them). Filimon went completely ballistic, Olga joined in, and soon there was fun for the whole family. Again, read the thread and you'll understand where I'm "coming from".

Anyway, if you want to contribute something besides more bad blood, please do. Otherwise, I'm out of this discussion.

Flamer-in-retirement,

Peter

Filimon
23-04-2004, 17:12
Если человек - дурак, то это на всю жизнь