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Uncle Wally
09-05-2018, 07:50
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Uncle Wally
09-05-2018, 09:27
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Ignatius
09-05-2018, 11:02
"No shackle fits more permananetly and snugly than the one of WII memory and to embrace it is to concede one's future without ever reconciling one's past." Author unknown

Uncle Wally
09-05-2018, 11:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSjTZ6uC0ZY

americaninmoscow
09-05-2018, 12:25
Who Did The Most To Defeat The Nazis?

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-05-08/who-did-most-defeat-nazis



Victory in Europe Day which is generally known as VE Day, marks the day Nazi Germany unconditionally surrendered to the allies in May 1945.

As Statista's Niall McCarthy notes, debate still rages among younger generations as to which allied nation played the most important role in defeating the Germans during the war.

The USSR undoubtedly made the biggest human sacrifice with a quarter of the entire Soviet population killed or wounded during the conflict. In total, an estimated 27 million Soviets are thought to have perished. The U.S. had just over 400,000 military deaths (including the war in the Pacific) while the UK had approximately 384,000 (also including deaths in combat with Japan).

Despite the massive Soviet casualty figures, some believe their decisive contribution to the war effort was only achievable through lend-lease weaponry from the UK and US.

Others point out that Russian ingenuity, industrial capacity and innovative equipment such as the T-34 tank were the main reasons the allies won the war.


Some also say that USAAF and RAF bombing destroyed Germany's ability to wage war effectively, providing the greatest contribution to victory.

YouGov conducted a poll to find out what the current generation think.

Infographic: Who Did The Most To Defeat The Nazis? | Statista

You will find more infographics at Statista

In the UK, a clear 50 percent majority say Britain made the biggest contribution to victory while in the United States, 47 percent say it was their armed forces.

In France, 56 percent say it was the Americans, 7 percent say the British and 22 percent say the Russians.

In Germany, 34 percent of those polled said the U.S. played the most important role in winning the war, while 22 percent say it was the Russians and 7 percent say Britain.

Uncle Wally
09-05-2018, 13:05
The post above shows to many in the "west" still don't know the truth. Watch the video I posted which gives facts instead of feelings.

Ignatius
09-05-2018, 13:33
American photoshop:

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Ignatius
09-05-2018, 13:52
Who Did The Most To Defeat The Nazis?

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-05-08/who-did-most-defeat-nazis

Some also say that USAAF and RAF bombing destroyed Germany's ability to wage war effectively, providing the greatest contribution to victory.



I'd put T-34 and RAF bombing of Romanian gas fields at the top. German "modernization" was always predicated on outsurcing agricutlure (Ukraine/Poland) and fuel (Romania/Soviet Russia/Northern Africa). The ability of the Brits to take out the last of Germany's fuel supply can't be overestimated.

As for "ingenuity" I suppose the writer means the "common Soviet," on which I completely agree. Surely, the writer doesn't mean Stalin.

TolkoRaz
09-05-2018, 14:34
32459

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americaninmoscow
09-05-2018, 15:14
The post above shows to many in the "west" still don't know the truth. Watch the video I posted which gives facts instead of feelings.

I think ur prob right. And ur just the guy to do it.

Ignatius
09-05-2018, 15:46
Watched the video. Couple of things about the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

The Japanese didn't surrender unconditionally prior to the bombings only because they believed they could negotiate a secret separate peace with Stalin against the US/GB, just as Stalin had done with Hitler. They knew all about Molotov-Ribbontrop and the Manchuria invasion was a devastating blow to these plans.

2nd, a conventional invasion with Japan would have easily been the bloodiest battle of WWII. The only route into Japan was at the southern tip and the Japanese estimated that 10M of theirs would die and the US believed 1M of its own would die. The invasion was all set to go as many believed the Japanese wouldn't surrender even after the bombings. Losing 200k to bombings was awful but still better than losing millions to a land invasion.
Suzuki could have surrendered but was stubborn.

Benedikt
09-05-2018, 18:01
did I understand correctly - the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in Japan?- I always thought Manchuria was part of China.....

FatAndy
09-05-2018, 19:38
did I understand correctly - the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in Japan?- I always thought Manchuria was part of China.....
The very big piece of Chinese territory, including Manchuria, was occupied by Japan in 193x. The Red Army started to invade Manchuria 9th Aug 1945, as it was agreed in Yalta and Potsdam.
Overwhelmingly fast cutting off Chinese resource base was the main reason for Japan to surrender so soon.

Ignatius
09-05-2018, 19:45
did I understand correctly - the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in Japan?- I always thought Manchuria was part of China.....

Though I don't think anyone wrote what you have written - "the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in Japan," Manchuria was occupied by Japan, much in the same way Bohemia and the Republic of Ukraine were occupied by Nazi Germany.

Benedikt
09-05-2018, 20:14
Though I don't think anyone wrote what you have written - "the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in Japan," Manchuria was occupied by Japan, much in the same way Bohemia and the Republic of Ukraine were occupied by Nazi Germany.

suppose it is not quite clear what i wrote? i know that the Japanese occupied Manchuria. But the guy said Manchuria IN Japan and not BY the Japanese. was this a lapsus linguae or what?

Uncle Wally
09-05-2018, 20:33
Watched the video. Couple of things about the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

The Japanese didn't surrender unconditionally prior to the bombings only because they believed they could negotiate a secret separate peace with Stalin against the US/GB, just as Stalin had done with Hitler. They knew all about Molotov-Ribbontrop and the Manchuria invasion was a devastating blow to these plans.

2nd, a conventional invasion with Japan would have easily been the bloodiest battle of WWII. The only route into Japan was at the southern tip and the Japanese estimated that 10M of theirs would die and the US believed 1M of its own would die. The invasion was all set to go as many believed the Japanese wouldn't surrender even after the bombings. Losing 200k to bombings was awful but still better than losing millions to a land invasion.
Suzuki could have surrendered but was stubborn.



After the bombings. The US had leveled many Japanese cities by fire bombing. What's the difference between one bomb and many when the results are the same? The Japanese couldn't understand the effects of a nuke when nobody else had experienced those effects before. How could they know only days after? No one had ever seen the cruelty unleashed by he Americans before. The cruelty of Russians was well know.

Ignatius
09-05-2018, 22:55
After the bombings. The US had leveled many Japanese cities by fire bombing. What's the difference between one bomb and many when the results are the same? The Japanese couldn't understand the effects of a nuke when nobody else had experienced those effects before. How could they know only days after? No one had ever seen the cruelty unleashed by he Americans before. The cruelty of Russians was well know.

I doubt cities were "leveled" after the Nagasaki bombing because the surrender was just 7 days later. However, it's possible - Japan's military leaders tried to stage a coup in order to continue the war. Regardless, fire bombings were no less moral than burning down cities or raping women.

Russian Lad
10-05-2018, 05:08
I think that the Victory is used by the regime to rally the Russians, to get them used to wearing uniform and to marching in formations. Many war archives are still held secret by the NKVD, the general public and the historians are denied access to thousands of documents. Hope one day we will learn the truth. The first parade was held in 1945, then it was never held till 1965 - hope you understand why.

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Uncle Wally
10-05-2018, 07:14
I doubt cities were "leveled" after the Nagasaki bombing because the surrender was just 7 days later. However, it's possible - Japan's military leaders tried to stage a coup in order to continue the war. Regardless, fire bombings were no less moral than burning down cities or raping women.



No, the other cities were already bombed. Flatten and burnt so a city being nuked was almost the same thing. But you add in Russia and losing seems certain.

americaninmoscow
10-05-2018, 08:03
I think that the Victory is used by the regime to rally the Russians, to get them used to wearing uniform and to marching in formations. Many war archives are still held secret by the NKVD, the general public and the historians are denied access to thousands of documents. Hope one day we will learn the truth. The first parade was held in 1945, then it was never held till 1965 - hope you understand why.

32462

I didnt know that the parade wasnt held for so many years, thats interesting.

I did read a post on fb that was interesting tho. The original was in Russian and it was fairly long but the gist if it was simple - its time to stop celebrating may 9 victory day.

Why?

It celerates the victory over a country that doesnt exist anymore by people who werent there and using equipment that is no longer on display. He notes its time to look forward, not back and to make may 9 like the battle against napoelon...

There were lots of other points, like the money spent could better be used to feed or house the actual remaining vets or just vets in general.

Here it is

Дмитрий Гудков: Нельзя спустя 73 года праздновать победу над врагом

Этот День Победы пропах в последние годы чем-то не тем. Еще в нулевых слова о том, что в России есть самый главный праздник (можно даже со всех больших букв) не казались ни обманом, ни пошлостью. А теперь — кажутся. Что произошло? — Государство, Мидас наоборот, решило приватизировать Победу и успешно с этим справилось.

В итоге теперь вместо памяти у нас каждый год ляпы один абсурднее другого — то немецкие солдаты на плакатах, то немецкие винтовки на памятниках. Но это было бы полбеды — в конце концов, за 70 лет и неплохо, что позабыли, как чей штык выглядел. Хуже другое: атмосфера. То самое «победобесие», которое пришло на смену скорби.

Завтра утром в Москве будет парад Победы. Мероприятие — давайте скажем честно — не объединяющее и даже в чем-то абсурдное. Нельзя спустя 73 года праздновать победу над врагом. Тех врагов, той страны, которую побеждали, давно уже нет, да и по Красной площади поедут совсем не «Катюши». Поедут баллистические ракеты, системы залпового огня, еще какое-нибудь омерзительное железо. Привет, союзники, ракету «Володя» увидеть не хотите ли? Поэтому и самим ветеранам на параде места не находится — им предлагают посмотреть его телевизору: даже тем, кто специально приехал в Москву.

Однако «общественный консенсус» таков, что парад все одобряют, ведь «точно такой же, но другой» был на Красной площади в 45-м году. Правда, за его фото у нас теперь судят — но эти технические детали мы предпочитаем не замечать.

Живи мы в здоровом государстве, парад превратился бы во что-то вроде реконструкции Бородинской битвы — интересного, но совершенно факультативного шоу с допуском всех желающих.

Тут давайте скажу еще одно страшное: для 99% современных россиян Отечественная и Великая Отечественная войны не отличаются друг от друга. Потому что мы равно их не застали, равно узнавали с чужих слов, из книг и фильмов, а значит, равно не представляем.

Отсюда и идут все эти нелепые «дегустации блокадного хлеба» и прочие вечеринки в ночных клубах «Спасибо деду». Потому что нельзя всерьез требовать от людей остро переживать события прошлого века, когда их не было ни на свете, ни в проекте.

И как ни подстегивай патриотические чувства «бессмертными полками», георгиевскими лентами и тому подобными акциями, а уже через пару лет они превращаются в повод для государства представиться Родиной. Ленточка становится символом военной агрессии, «полк» после череды скандалов перетекает под крыло «Единой России», а депутат Поклонская выходит с портретом Николая Кровавого, подводя итог всей этой истории.

Настоящие же ветераны как жили, так и продолжают жить в разваливающихся домах, без газа, воды и помощи. Сейчас, на 9 мая, им с барского плеча раздадут по 10 тысяч рублей — вот ровно во столько государство по-настоящему оценивает их подвиг. Парад с ядерными ракетами важнее.

Не моя, но правильная мысль: чем дальше отстоит от нас 45-й год, тем громче его празднуют. Чем хуже у нас отношения со всем миром — тем триумфальнее становится торжество, тем белее сияет китель генералиссимуса (чтобы отсвет падал на другого, нынешнего). Стране, у которой украли будущее, подсовывают лежалое прошлое: берите, не жалко. Одно время пытались навязать даже 1612 год — но не вышло, и решили сосредоточиться на 45-м.

День Победы должен быть личным праздником — памятью о потерях семьи, вниманием к еще живущим ветеранам, желанием мира. То, что нам навязывают сейчас, максимально далеко от всего этого.

Я не призываю — но просто говорю о себе: этот день я проведу с семьей, а не в шествии за спинами единороссов и особенно Поклонской. Без «великой России», зато с людьми, которые мне близки и дороги и которые, как и я, не хотят повторить.

https://goo.gl/e5iSbr

Hans.KK
10-05-2018, 08:22
... I did read a post on fb that was interesting tho. The original was in Russian and it was fairly long but the gist if it was simple - its time to stop celebrating may 9 victory day.

Why?

It celerates the victory over a country that doesnt exist anymore by people who werent there and using equipment that is no longer on display. He notes its time to look forward, not back and to make may 9 like the battle against napoelon...I had heard that thing too, people say that the government had told that: "We should stop celebrating all this old war stuff", reason: "We should look forward", but it is strange, all these parade with pictures/posters of old veterans are clearly organised from a central place and the pictures/posters of old veterans (most likely old relatives/family members) are made in the same way, so it really appear that the government is the mastermind behind this and at the same time they do not want that people are looking back on this old war stuff/history, a bit strange, but it might be that two departments in the government (sitting next door to each other) do not speak with each other?

Russian Lad
10-05-2018, 08:24
I did read a post on fb that was interesting tho. The original was in Russian and it was fairly long but the gist if it was simple - its time to stop celebrating may 9 victory day.

Nothing wrong with celebrating it per se, but NKVD has turned it into a brainwashing and consolidating tool. Yesterday I was shopping in Piatorochka, bought a sausage and there was that black-yellow thing all over it:

32463

Hans.KK
10-05-2018, 08:32
Nothing wrong with celebrating it per se, but NKVD has turned it into a brainwashing and consolidating tool. Yesterday I was shopping in Piatorochka, bought a sausage and there was that black-yellow thing all over it:

32463It is not brainwashing the way you want to see it, it is brainwashing, but it is called marketing, now all veterans, and there families, will go and buy tons of this product just because of this extra decoration, it is BS but it works that is why they do it.

Russian Lad
10-05-2018, 08:45
It is not brainwashing the way you want to see it, it is brainwashing, but it is called marketing, now all veterans, and there families, will go and buy tons of this product just because of this extra decoration, it is BS but it works that is why they do it.

They will buy it anyway because they have been buying it for decades, I don't see any marketing appeal/value in it. The food industry is heavily subsidized by the state, so I would not be surprised if NKVD gives them certain "recommendations". There may be some marketing element in it, but even this element is the result of the overall state promotion of this symbol. The ripple effect, if you will. If NKVD didn't massively promote it on the state level, it would not appear on sausages. It is not like first it was drawn on sausages then the state picked up the concept.

Uncle Wally
10-05-2018, 08:53
32464

FatAndy
10-05-2018, 10:01
I think that the Victory is used by the regime to rally the Russians, to get them used to wearing uniform and to marching in formations. Many war archives are still held secret by the NKVD, the general public and the historians are denied access to thousands of documents. Hope one day we will learn the truth. The first parade was held in 1945, then it was never held till 1965 - hope you understand why.

32462
Oh, you like ukronazi @$$hole?

americaninmoscow
10-05-2018, 10:23
They will buy it anyway because they have been buying it for decades, I don't see any marketing appeal/value in it. The food industry is heavily subsidized by the state, so I would not be surprised if NKVD gives them certain "recommendations". There may be some marketing element in it, but even this element is the result of the overall state promotion of this symbol. The ripple effect, if you will. If NKVD didn't massively promote it on the state level, it would not appear on sausages. It is not like first it was drawn on sausages then the state picked up the concept.

Not so sure. I doubt there was some prikaz-"though shall now use the st george ribbon on all products x-y on dates may 1-9."

FatAndy
10-05-2018, 10:53
Not so sure. I doubt there was some prikaz-"though shall now use the st george ribbon on all products x-y on dates may 1-9."
There was, Lt. RusLad has got the paper with Big Round Stamp... ;)

Ignatius
10-05-2018, 10:53
I think that the Victory is used by the regime to rally the Russians, to get them used to wearing uniform and to marching in formations. Many war archives are still held secret by the NKVD, the general public and the historians are denied access to thousands of documents. Hope one day we will learn the truth. The first parade was held in 1945, then it was never held till 1965 - hope you understand why.

32462

Correct, the current WWII narrative was never a consensus one in the USSR. The ostensible reason for the 1965 parade was commemoration, but the real reason was to scare the West by showcasing its new ICBMs. It is only now that without Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Koreans, Poles, etc... there is a consensus national view of the war, a Russian view of the war.

FatAndy
10-05-2018, 11:27
but the real reason was to scare the West by showcasing its new ICBMs.
This too, but not new ones. The most new ICBMs taken onto armament and set for combat duty are not shown on the parades for obvious reasons. :)
In 1965 USSR has shown some non-serial samples of closed projects.


It is only now that without Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Koreans, Poles, etc... there is a consensus national view of the war, a Russian view of the war.
I can understand your "concern" about Tribaltic Tigers and Poland... But Korea?

Ignatius
10-05-2018, 12:40
I can understand your "concern" about Tribaltic Tigers and Poland... But Korea?

Stalin forcibly resettled many ethnicities, including about 200,000 Koreans.

FatAndy
10-05-2018, 14:39
Stalin forcibly resettled many ethnicities, including about 200,000 Koreans.
Ah, this... I know some of "Soviet Koreans" - they don't mind the damned atrocities of blood-thirsty dictator and felt not bad in Uzbekistan. :)

Armoured
10-05-2018, 14:52
Stalin forcibly resettled many ethnicities, including about 200,000 Koreans.


Ah, this... I know some of "Soviet Koreans" - they don't mind the damned atrocities of blood-thirsty dictator and felt not bad in Uzbekistan. :)

As far as I'm aware, many (most?) of the Koreans in the USSR were from (or near) territories under Japanese occupation (e.g. Sakhalin), so their attitude to finding themselves in the USSR were definitely coloured by how they saw living under Japanese rule.

Also I presume the potential alternatives they had if they were to leave - i.e. Japan or North or South Korea after the war.

Were there many Koreans in USSR prior to WWII? Presumably some.

Armoured
10-05-2018, 15:00
Just looked this up - I didn't realise there were so many ethnic Koreans prior to WWII, mainly in border regions.

Similar issue: they were deported (from far east) to various places as potential Japanese agents. Of course, many had been migrants away from Japanese occupation.

Anyway, it's not like the Japanese-occupied places were fun places to be, either.

FatAndy
10-05-2018, 15:06
Were there many Koreans in USSR prior to WWII?
Yes, along Amur river and КВЖД, some at Sakhalin. They migrated there in the end of 19th - beginning 20th century.
In USSR, by rumors, they were bloody repressed - kept 1st place in the number of Heros of Socialistic Labor per 1000 pop. (209 in absolute) and 2nd place on the number of ppl with higher education (after Jews, of course).


to various places as potential Japanese agents
Mainly to Uzbekistan + Kazakhstan.

Armoured
10-05-2018, 15:19
Yes, along Amur river and КВЖД, some at Sakhalin.

Figure I read was that they were up to a quarter of population in far east area around Vladivostok (wasn't very precise). But that much of Sakhalin Korean population was different/separate as brought in by Japanese as labour and had no experience in USSR prior to the end of the war.

And of course, Japanese occupation / intervention during civil war could not have been very comfortable for Koreans.

Anyway, my point was that the alternatives available were not very attractive.

FatAndy
10-05-2018, 15:51
Anyway, my point was that the alternatives available were not very attractive.
Read about 731th detail of Kwantun army - they mainly used Chinese and Koreans for experiments.

Armoured
10-05-2018, 16:26
Read about 731th detail of Kwantun army - they mainly used Chinese and Koreans for experiments.

Yes, my point exactly - experience of Koreans with Imperial Japan (or whatever term is correct for that time period) were awful. (Not likely the best term either here but FWIW)

TheInterocitor
10-05-2018, 21:22
For every 1 American who died in World War II, there were 100 Russians died. 250,000 and 25,000,000.

Ignatius
10-05-2018, 22:04
For every 1 American who died in World War II, there were 100 Russians died. 250,000 and 25,000,000.

The US lost over 400,000 soldiers in WWII.

Benedikt
11-05-2018, 04:13
I had heard that thing too, people say that the government had told that: "We should stop celebrating all this old war stuff", reason: "We should look forward", but it is strange, all these parade with pictures/posters of old veterans are clearly organised from a central place and the pictures/posters of old veterans (most likely old relatives/family members) are made in the same way, so it really appear that the government is the mastermind behind this and at the same time they do not want that people are looking back on this old war stuff/history, a bit strange, but it might be that two departments in the government (sitting next door to each other) do not speak with each other?

why should Russia stop celebrating their Victory Day? the Jews are celebrating the days whe nthe KZ/s were liberated ,every year, in Germany and Austria. mauthause nadn Auschwitz ids being shoved down our throats every year. This ALSO happened i na country, und a regime that is no more. Most of us were not even a glimmer in our parents eyes at that time, though we all ahve to hear and watch it on TV,read it in the media, year in and year out.
The Australians and New Zealanders celebrate ANZAC day. It was also long ago. they still do it. let them rememebr the dead. no one says anything there.
In Austria we hear every year the story when -Φsterreich ist frei-. Though the tunes have changed there. the last few years we also hear that Austria was not only a victim but also an aggressor. good to hear that. and they celebrate this every year. let them.
Pearl Harbor is being remembered every year. and the sunken ship and monument will stay there still for years to come. let them.
it is also a fact that Russia would not have -survived- if it was not for the - land lease- project of the USA. Stalin war hiding in his Office like a healess chicken and did not know what to do.It was the Russian winter that saved his backside.
there are still so many ifs and buts. and we can dicuss that until hell frezzes over. and that will never happen. even the Pope says there is no hell. should we believe him?
so, let the Russians all over the world celebrate their Victory Day. For these old people not much else to celebrate. at least they still have hteir pride. let them show it. one day a year.
could the money spent there used better? well, one atomic submarine less, one Mig fighter not built, the money could come from there as well. will it? of course not...