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quincy
09-04-2016, 12:31
Some of Samia Sultan’s neighbours don’t greet her any more, and sometimes it’s hard for her to understand why. Sultan, a dentist, lives in Glasgow, in an area of the city that is – like most Muslim populations in the UK – majority Sunni. But Sultan isn’t Sunni: she is Ahmadi. And that is the source of the problem.

“My neighbours were fine, but when they came to know I was Ahmadi, their attitude changed,” Sultan explains. It is a bright morning in Glasgow, but the boredom of the school holidays is beginning to bite, and her daughters are impatient to borrow her smartphone so that they can use its stopwatch to time their game. Sultan passes her palm gently over her older daughter’s hair as she sends her back out to play. “They would no longer reply to my greeting As-salāmu ‘alaykum [peace be upon you]” with Wa’alaykumu s-salām [and upon you peace].”

At first hearing, it seems almost negligible; a petty withholding. But this doorstep refusal to return the universal Muslim greeting is blunt in its intended humiliation: a denial of the basic vocabulary of belonging. Sultan shrugs lightly. “We can’t stop it by ourselves and we are taught to bear hardship with patience, so we try to be friendly.” She pauses. “But it is hard. Sometimes you think: what is wrong with me?”

The answer to that question is a complicated one, with roots in theology and Pakistani history. But whatever its origins, it has recently come to seem more urgent than ever. When Asad Shah, a popular shopkeeper living in the multicultural Shawlands area of Glasgow, was fatally stabbed outside his newsagents on the night before Good Friday, the initial local presumption was that this had been a white-on-black hate crime.
A candlelit vigil, organised by two local women – one Muslim and one Christian – the day after the killing, was publicised on social media under the hashtag #thisisnotwhoweare.
But it soon emerged that Police Scotland were treating the crime as “religiously prejudiced”, an unusually specific form of words, and that Shah was an Ahmadi, a member of a minority sect of Islam that faces persecution and bloody violence in countries such as Pakistan and Indonesia, and is treated with open hostility by many orthodox Muslims in the UK because it differs from their belief that Muhammad is the final prophet sent to guide humankind, as orthodox Muslims believe is laid out in the Qur’an.

The man now charged with Shah’s murder is also a Muslim. On Thursday, Tanveer Ahmed, from Bradford, released a statement through his lawyer, justifying the killing because Shah had “disrespected” Islam.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/09/shunned-for-saying-theyre-muslims-life-for-ahmadis-after-asad-shahs

Benedikt
09-04-2016, 14:14
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/09/shunned-for-saying-theyre-muslims-life-for-ahmadis-after-asad-shahs[/QUOTE]

and what were the Catholics and Protestants doing in Northern Ireland? and still doing it? nothing much different... and when the orange Boys are marching, it needs 1000-s of police to keep the peace.who calls the kettle black?

rusmeister
09-04-2016, 15:12
Being a minority can be hard. Minorities naturally want to become majorities, and not be minorities anymore. Such a thing winds up being unfortunate for the majority when minorities succeed, for you cannot have an infinite number of public policies and laws for each individual. It generally means the overthrow of the majority rule, more often by gradual change, step by small step, rather than sudden, violent overthrow.

I think it relevant to ask whether Ahmadi Islam is true; is in fact the truth of the universe? Or is it only unmportant, a belief that is not actually true?

Benedikt
09-04-2016, 20:02
I think it relevant to ask whether Ahmadi Islam is true; is in fact the truth of the universe? Or is it only unimportant, a belief that is not actually true?[/QUOTE]

at first i had to read up who they are, since i did not even now they exist. confusing is a mild word...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8711026.stm

TolkoRaz
09-04-2016, 20:16
I seem to recall that Jas was an Ahmadi.

I wonder if and hope she is OK

quincy
10-04-2016, 13:07
I seem to recall that Jas was an Ahmadi.

I wonder if and hope she is OK

She was busy writing and teaching, hopefully she had some success!

mr krinkle
11-04-2016, 01:15
Being a minority can be hard. Minorities naturally want to become majorities, and not be minorities anymore. Such a thing winds up being unfortunate for the majority when minorities succeed, for you cannot have an infinite number of public policies and laws for each individual. It generally means the overthrow of the majority rule, more often by gradual change, step by small step, rather than sudden, violent overthrow.

I think it relevant to ask whether Ahmadi Islam is true; is in fact the truth of the universe? Or is it only unmportant, a belief that is not actually true?

none of its true....if so...prove it.

rusmeister
11-04-2016, 10:35
none of its true....if so...prove it.

So... Nothing is true? If so, then your statement is not true, either, and you are contradicting yourself.

But I think you merely mean to say that Ahmadi Islam is not true, and so is irrelevant to our lives. In that case, you must have a better conception of what the truth of our origins and the meaning of our lives is.

quincy
17-04-2016, 23:30
"Not Welcome"
Since the murder of the Glasgow shopkeeper Asad Shah, attention has been drawn to the plight of the Ahmadiyya movement within Islam; seen as heretical by other Muslims, persecuted in Pakistan and now, it is reported, facing increasing hostility here in the UK, with the discovery of leaflets in a London mosque calling for Ahmadis to be killed if they refuse to convert to mainstream Islam. Imam Ataul Rashed tells William Crawley what it is like to live in Britian as a member of the persecuted Ahmadi Muslim sect.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03r9bcs

quincy
19-04-2016, 00:10
Ahmadi Muslims in Scotland have launched an anti-extremism campaign following the death of the Glasgow shopkeeper Asad Shah, despite the failure of other prominent Muslims to attend the event.

Representatives of the Glasgow Central Mosque and the Muslim Council of Scotland were invited to attend the launch alongside other faith groups, but the Guardian understands that both sent their apologies at the last minute.

Shah, who lived in the multicultural Shawlands area of Glasgow, was fatally stabbed outside his newsagents on 24 March.

Shah was an Ahmadi, a member of a minority sect of Islam that faces persecution and violence in countries such as Pakistan and is treated with open hostility by many orthodox Muslims in the UK because it differs from their belief that Muhammad is the final prophet sent to guide humankind.

Abdul Abid, president of the Ahmadiyya community in Scotland, admitted he was disappointed that other Muslim leaders had not attended the launch. Representatives of Glasgow’s Sikh and Jewish communities and the Church of Scotland’s inter-faith group were all present, alongside local politicians
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/18/scottish-muslim-groups-ahmadi-anti-extremism-campaign-launch-glasgow

Fantastika
19-04-2016, 14:10
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/09/shunned-for-saying-theyre-muslims-life-for-ahmadis-after-asad-shahs

and what were the Catholics and Protestants doing in Northern Ireland? and still doing it? nothing much different... and when the orange Boys are marching, it needs 1000-s of police to keep the peace.who calls the kettle black?

Big differences.

Northern Ireland was the only place Christians had a violent schism in the 20th century. And the remainder of the global Christian community worked for an end to the violence, not to fuel it by importing weapons.

By contrast, Islamo-fascism, with its related baggage of terrorist bombings, kidnappings, beheadings, racism and discrimination is alive and well in Africa, Asia, the Americas, Australia and Europe. The violence includes Muslim attacks on infidels such as Christians and Hindus, and Muslim aggression on each other's sects. Violent incidents occur every day. And there is no call nor working for peace from any Islamic dictatorship, such as Iran or Saudi Arabia, just utter silence. They mostly seem to think "peace" can be achieved by bombs and killing all the other guys, such as in Yemen.

quincy
20-04-2016, 00:30
Big differences.

Northern Ireland was the only place Christians had a violent schism in the 20th century. And the remainder of the global Christian community worked for an end to the violence, not to fuel it by importing weapons.

By contrast, Islamo-fascism, with its related baggage of terrorist bombings, kidnappings, beheadings, racism and discrimination is alive and well in Africa, Asia, the Americas, Australia and Europe. The violence includes Muslim attacks on infidels such as Christians and Hindus, and Muslim aggression on each other's sects. Violent incidents occur every day. And there is no call nor working for peace from any Islamic dictatorship, such as Iran or Saudi Arabia, just utter silence. They mostly seem to think "peace" can be achieved by bombs and killing all the other guys, such as in Yemen.

Christianity went through a reformation , which Islam will also probably go through

Iran has a long tradition of civilization that predates Islam, as a result of which they have more religious tolerance

mr krinkle
20-04-2016, 01:38
and what were the Catholics and Protestants doing in Northern Ireland? and still doing it? nothing much different... and when the orange Boys are marching, it needs 1000-s of police to keep the peace.who calls the kettle black?[/QUOTE]

youre wrong......the conflict in N.Ireland was about republicans vs loyalists.......there were protestant republicans,indeed several IRA members were protestants....There is even now a protestant Sinn Fein member in the Ulster parliament....And I'm sure many Catholics who were of the loyalist persuasion.....Whatever killings were done, were not for ecumenical reasons......

TolkoRaz
20-04-2016, 06:42
Big differences.

Northern Ireland was the only place Christians had a violent schism in the 20th century. And the remainder of the global Christian community worked for an end to the violence, not to fuel it by importing weapons.
.

The remainder of the global Christian community?

I seem to recall reading that weapons and huge amounts of money flowed from America to the IRA, and other Republican groupings, who were fighting the British.

rusmeister
20-04-2016, 07:21
The remainder of the global Christian community?

I seem to recall reading that weapons and huge amounts of money flowed from America to the IRA, and other Republican groupings, who were fighting the British.

Here you are conflating Christians with nations in which they have ceased to be the dominant political force. The Christian community can be reasonably identified as all Christian peoples who take their religion seriously, doing what they can politically, of course, but you can hardly blame them if non-Christians and nominal Christians (who cannot reasonably be considered Christian) dominate the politics in their countries.

It IS true that political issues in NI include non-religious as well as religious motivation, and in our time, I would say actual religious motivation is minimal there. But certainly, as a thing that determines worldview, it is one of the chief things that determnes what kind of political views one will have.

rusmeister
20-04-2016, 07:33
Christianity went through a reformation , which Islam will also probably go through

Iran has a long tradition of civilization that predates Islam, as a result of which they have more religious tolerance

A) The so-called "Reformation" didn't reform the Catholic Church; it only splintered it, and produced the differences that made the conflict in Northern Ireland possible. The term "Reformation" deceives you; it is a misnomer.

So drawing a speculative parallel with Islam is useless. Islam in general, by nature of its lack of hierarchal authority, is Protestant in its general nature: Sola Scriptura is a plague of Islam as well as Protestantism.


Trying to compare the religious tolerance of Iran to that of the historical Christian West is, at its very best, like trying to compare Izmailovsky Park to California's Yosemite Park or the Grand Canyon.

Fantastika
20-04-2016, 10:28
Christianity went through a reformation , which Islam will also probably go through

Iran has a long tradition of civilization that predates Islam, as a result of which they have more religious tolerance

Islamic reformers are a rare and courageous breed, as OP points out.

Fantastika
20-04-2016, 10:36
A) The so-called "Reformation" didn't reform the Catholic Church; it only splintered it, and produced the differences that made the conflict in Northern Ireland possible. The term "Reformation" deceives you; it is a misnomer.

So drawing a speculative parallel with Islam is useless. Islam in general, by nature of its lack of hierarchal authority, is Protestant in its general nature: Sola Scriptura is a plague of Islam as well as Protestantism.


Trying to compare the religious tolerance of Iran to that of the historical Christian West is, at its very best, like trying to compare Izmailovsky Park to California's Yosemite Park or the Grand Canyon.

Islam is a way of life, Christianity (in the US, anyway) something to do on Sunday morning. Government has suppressed any influence the Christian Church can have in setting government policy, and erected a "Wall of Separation" between itself and the Bible. By contrast, Islam and its doctrines *are* government policy in Islamic countries. Most of the anathema against Muslims in the US and other Western countries is because Muslims not only reject traditional Christian churches, but they want to replace traditional Western civilization, with its backbone of Christian teachings, with Sharia law.

Fantastika
20-04-2016, 10:43
and what were the Catholics and Protestants doing in Northern Ireland? and still doing it? nothing much different... and when the orange Boys are marching, it needs 1000-s of police to keep the peace.who calls the kettle black?
...
youre wrong......the conflict in N.Ireland was about republicans vs loyalists.......there were protestant republicans,indeed several IRA members were protestants....There is even now a protestant Sinn Fein member in the Ulster parliament....And I'm sure many Catholics who were of the loyalist persuasion.....Whatever killings were done, were not for ecumenical reasons......

Yes, you are right, but the media, with its hatred of organized Christianity, mainly portrayed it as a religious battle, as yet another justification for rejecting the Church's traditional morality.

Fantastika
20-04-2016, 10:50
The remainder of the global Christian community?

I seem to recall reading that weapons and huge amounts of money flowed from America to the IRA, and other Republican groupings, who were fighting the British.

This is true, but I recall the authorities cracked down on this. And the aid came from Massachusetts Irish, who are descendants of the 1800's Irish who escaped despotic English rule. More to do with their ethnicity than religion.

Unlike the Saudi's, and the redacted report on 9/11, with its missing 28 pages, which seems to indicate cooperation between high levels of Saudi government and the religious terrorists.

TolkoRaz
20-04-2016, 17:22
Here you are conflating Christians with nations in which they have ceased to be the dominant political force. The Christian community can be reasonably identified as all Christian peoples who take their religion seriously, doing what they can politically, of course, but you can hardly blame them if non-Christians and nominal Christians (who cannot reasonably be considered Christian) dominate the politics in their countries.

It IS true that political issues in NI include non-religious as well as religious motivation, and in our time, I would say actual religious motivation is minimal there. But certainly, as a thing that determines worldview, it is one of the chief things that determnes what kind of political views one will have.

Agreed. The NI conflict was about Republican demands for secession from British rule; religion played no part as the majority of the IRA and affiliates spent more time in pubs than in church! ;)

Uncle Wally
20-04-2016, 18:10
IRA and affiliates spent more time in pubs than in church! ;)


Which is good and correct.

TolkoRaz
20-04-2016, 18:33
Which is good and correct.

If you are paying! :p

Uncle Wally
20-04-2016, 19:27
If you are paying! :p


For you? Sure.

quincy
21-04-2016, 10:32
A) The so-called "Reformation" didn't reform the Catholic Church; it only splintered it, and produced the differences that made the conflict in Northern Ireland possible. The term "Reformation" deceives you; it is a misnomer.

So drawing a speculative parallel with Islam is useless. Islam in general, by nature of its lack of hierarchal authority, is Protestant in its general nature: Sola Scriptura is a plague of Islam as well as Protestantism.


Trying to compare the religious tolerance of Iran to that of the historical Christian West is, at its very best, like trying to compare Izmailovsky Park to California's Yosemite Park or the Grand Canyon.

reformed or evolved is probably a better term. 500 or 600 years ago it was possible for a person to be imprisoned and maybe even killed if he/she abandoned Christian faith in western Europe

Spain expelled its Jews and Moslems unless they converted to Christianity 500 years ago

Iran is said to have one of the oldest functioning christian monasteries in the world - so it could be said to have at times in the past been more tolerant than Christian Europe

rusmeister
21-04-2016, 17:58
reformed or evolved is probably a better term. 500 or 600 years ago it was possible for a person to be imprisoned and maybe even killed if he/she abandoned Christian faith in western Europe

Spain expelled its Jews and Moslems unless they converted to Christianity 500 years ago

Iran is said to have one of the oldest functioning christian monasteries in the world - so it could be said to have at times in the past been more tolerant than Christian Europe

Neither is a better term. Schism or splinter are terms that correctly describe what happened regarding the Protestant break-off. It is certain that they failed in their initial effort to reform the Catholic Church; thus, there was no reformation. As I said, the name is a mistake, and using it helps you buy into the mistake and get a twisted idea of what happened.

Is a particular view of the world true? Are governmental politics based on any particular view of the world, religious or irreligious? Does it matter what the acceptd public ideology is? Was not Kim Davis imprisoned just last year for refusing to back down on a traditional Christian teaching and its relevance, if true, to our lives?

And when you try to suggest that Iran is or was more tolerant than Christian Europe, you are stretching into fantasy. It was Christian Europe that allowed people to digress as far as they did from the popularly accepted view of truth, enabling small and disgruntled minorities to dissent. If you really want to examine how the kafir (including "people of the Book", that is, Christians and Jews) were treated by dominant Islam down through history, we can - only it's not going to make your case look good.

The idea of deporting people has not been eliminated. Deportation is still practiced to this day; only deportation based on world view has become a rare thing,and that is only because people have come to think that it doesn't really matter what you believe, that world views do not have (or shouldn't have) any effect on public life. But the extreme effort to deport Jews proved to be a miserable failure, an idea not sustainable in practice, and so, practiced essentially only once, and not generally repeated in Christendom. It was a local error and wrong, and not characteristic of Christendom as a whole.