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natlee
29-08-2015, 19:53
Hi, my name is Natasha and I live in the center of the capital of what happens to be the world's largest country - a city I once used to love..

:pig:

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5782/20970967502_448146a8b0.jpg

vossy7
29-08-2015, 20:05
Hi, my name is Natasha and I live in the center of the capital of what happens to be the world's largest country - a city I once used to love..

:pig:

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5782/20970967502_448146a8b0.jpg

What's up Nat?

Nobbynumbnuts
29-08-2015, 20:08
Corruption and bad government are to blame. Nice to see Russians demanding more..

natlee
29-08-2015, 20:15
What's up Nat?

Nothing honeychka, just seems to be getting worse by the day... :(

vossy7
29-08-2015, 20:18
Nothing honeychka, just seems to be getting worse by the day... :(

Hope your guy is looking after you :straight-face:

Judge
29-08-2015, 20:54
Corruption and bad government are to blame. Nice to see Russians demanding more..

Renovation is going on, to make the city look better,yes they could do better job while doing the remont, once all is done the places under remont will look decent. .
I posted about other places in other threads where remont is going on,the places that have been done look awesome. ..there is no pleasing all, if they don't do the remont ppl complain, if they do the remont still complaints. :yawn:
Look at the areas they have done up, Gorky Park, VDNKh and Tsaritsyno Park,these are the ones I've recently visited, there are probably more that have been done up.
All the new pedestrian zones,very impressive and pleasant to see.
Nobby, when was the last time you visted the centre, trust me, it's really looking like one of the best looking capitals in Europe, and I will even say the world, I ain't as well traveled as you but what they have done these past years leaves a ever lasting impression on visitors. ..
OK,I'm off to pick up my pay cheque from the Kremlin troll factory :sacred:

Nobbynumbnuts
29-08-2015, 21:04
Renovation is going on, to make the city look better,yes they could do better job while doing the remont, once all is done the places under remont will look decent. .
I posted about other places in other threads where remont is going on,the places that have been done look awesome. ..there is no pleasing all, if they don't do the remont ppl complain, if they do the remont still complaints. :yawn:
Look at the areas they have done up, Gorky Park, VDNKh and Tsaritsyno Park,these are the ones I've recently visited, there are probably more that have been done up.
All the new pedestrian zones,very impressive and pleasant to see.
Nobby, when was the last time you visted the centre, trust me, it's really looking like one of the best looking capitals in Europe, and I will even say the world, I ain't as well traveled as you but what they have done these past years leaves a ever lasting impression on visitors. ..
OK,I'm off to pick up my pay cheque from the Kremlin troll factory :sacred:

Judge, you're arguing with a native Russian. Natalee says she's 'fed up' and things are 'getting worse' Perhaps she's referring to the situation in the sleeping areas.
I also imagine she's not looking at things through rose tinted glasses as a lot of expats do...

Judge
29-08-2015, 21:32
Judge, you're arguing with a native Russian. Natalee says she's 'fed up' and things are 'getting worse' Perhaps she's referring to the situation in the sleeping areas.
I also imagine she's not looking at things through rose tinted glasses as a lot of expats do...

She's complaining about a sign that should have been removed, I agree, it's an hazardous thing and needs arranging .Ok I agree with her, better work is needed while doing remont of the city,the whole country cos of safety, safety for the locals and for the workers, this is down to training and supervision, nothing to do with corruption like you mentioned .
Health and safety isn't high on everyone's list here, I often shake my head when driving on a motorway ,roadworks coming up and all there is to warn drivers is one cone and a arrow pointing down,and right near are workers.
Things are getting worse, like what?
Nat, your metro station is getting done up, expect lots of works around your area. ...once all is done, I'm sure it will be all ok.

penka
29-08-2015, 22:13
Nat, Sobyanin's digging activities made you stop liking your country?...

Judge
29-08-2015, 22:20
Judge, you're arguing with a native Russian. Natalee says she's 'fed up' and things are 'getting worse'

Native or not, no difference,
I've been arguing with RL for a few years , I do suspect he might not be a native Russian but a sleeper,a US mole infiltrating the forum to spread western propaganda.:dizzy:

natlee
29-08-2015, 22:22
She's complaining about a sign that should have been removed, I agree, it's an hazardous thing and needs arranging .

Nat, your metro station is getting done up, expect lots of works around your area. ...once all is done, I'm sure it will be all ok. Am happy to hear that you agree! Well.. people could die in the meantime, but who cares, right? ;) As long as it's ok in the end - only guess what? It probably won't be! Because as I've already said, tons of work has already been done in the area and most of it looks worse today than before they had started. The place has been nothing more than a mess for years now, with one thing or another being done up - as if! I'm getting very sick of keeping positive expecting a good outcome knowing by now that the chances of one are slim to none - this is Russia after all!

And what about the building across the road? Our local UFMS looks the same and worse with every one of us wondering each time we're there whether the roof will be collapsing on that day or the next time we visit - I have yet to hear of so much as a plan to fix those (=knock them down and build new ones)! But hey, am glad to hear some are still happy and positive in this craphole the place has become :(

Oh, and the metro being done up is a good idea - no complaints there, especially since they've realized their dumb mistakes and reopened some of the roads they had closed for the year of the repairs! :D

P.S. I'm ok, this just gets especially sad after a nice trip overseas as you get to compare! My man, vossychka, is away on business and I've been without him for nearly two weeks, and am missing him very much!

natlee
29-08-2015, 22:25
Native or not, no difference,
I've been arguing with RL for a few years , I do suspect he might not be a native Russian but a sleeper,a US mole infiltrating the forum to spread western propaganda.:dizzy: LOL! Oh he's Russian!

The difference between me and RL is he seems to be getting turned on by what's happening with our country - I'm getting depressed, instead!

Judge
29-08-2015, 22:29
Nat, Sobyanin's digging activities made you stop liking your country?...

For Moscowvites, there's no one better than Mr Luzhkov :love:

bydand
29-08-2015, 22:34
.Ok I agree with her, better work is needed while doing remont of the city,the whole country cos of safety, safety for the locals and for the workers, this is down to training and supervision, nothing to do with corruption like you mentioned .

I think it does have to do with corruption Judge. Shoddy work, and shoddy working conditions because the job has to be done as cheaply as possible. So the gravy sucking pigs can get theirs out of the budgeted money.

Judge
29-08-2015, 22:37
P.S. I'm ok, this just gets especially sad after a nice trip overseas as you get to compare!

Now I understand, you get the blues after sunny holidays ,where all is neat and tidy and wish for it to be the same here,wouldn't that be boring, if all was the same...If I had the time I could post dodgy road works from the country you visited, tell me where you just went and I'll find something.

natlee
29-08-2015, 22:39
I think it does have to do with corruption Judge. Shoddy work, and shoddy working conditions because the job has to be done as cheaply as possible. So the gravy sucking pigs can get theirs out of the budgeted money. Yes!!!

Judge
29-08-2015, 22:40
I think it does have to do with corruption Judge. Shoddy work, and shoddy working conditions because the job has to be done as cheaply as possible. So the gravy sucking pigs can get theirs out of the budgeted money.

And then they get to do it over again in a year or 2 when it falls apart,maybe.

If we are talking about the works on the centre of Moscow, I don't see a shobby work, what I see looks good and made to last, for sure there will be problems,like a slab needs fixing here and brick not layed properly.

natlee
29-08-2015, 22:42
Now I understand, you get the blues after sunny holidays ,where all is neat and tidy and wish for it to be the same here,wouldn't that be boring, if all was the same...If I had the time I could post dodgy road works from the country you visited, tell me where you just went and I'll find something. My favorite place on earth - the UK! ;) I'm sure it's not all perfect there either, but come on - safety's first, people are possibly the most polite you'll find anywhere, and my God it's a gorgeous country!

Judge
29-08-2015, 22:59
My favorite place on earth - the UK! ;) I'm sure it's not all perfect there either, but come on - safety's first, people are possibly the most polite you'll find anywhere, and my God it's a gorgeous country!

Lolol, each to their own Nat, I've just had family over and they were shocked cos of how wonderful Moscow is, my mum even saying over and over how it's more better than London, cleaner,wider roads,fantastic parks and stunning views at every corner , also often mentioned how nice and polite shop keepers and waitreses were.
Like their visit Moscow , you visit central London, same for my family here, I took them to all the nice touristy places,I did t see any reason to take to where I first lived here Medvedkovo,saying that, the park top orange line is awesome now and leads all the way to Bot Sad metro,all thanks to the new major.
They also visited dachaland here, Russian countryside and lakes, not enough positive adjectives to describe what they saw,

natlee
29-08-2015, 23:08
Like their visit Moscow , you visit central London, same for my family here, I took them to all the nice touristy places,I did t see any reason to take to where I first lived here Medvedkovo,saying that, the park top orange line is awesome now and leads all the way to Bot Sad metro,all thanks to the new major. LOL - have not even been this time! ;)

bydand
29-08-2015, 23:10
And then they get to do it over again in a year or 2 when it falls apart,maybe.

If we are talking about the works on the centre of Moscow, I don't see a shobby work, what I see looks good and made to last, for sure there will be problems,like a slab needs fixing here and brick not layed properly.

Can't say much about the works going on in Moscow, but could testify to a lot of stupid and poorly done projects in Kashin. All of them are except one. There is one man who regularly trims the bushes around the center, Resurrection Cathedral and Anna Kashina Monument. I think he likes his job and enjoys his work.

29030

Nobbynumbnuts
30-08-2015, 00:20
I think it does have to do with corruption Judge. Shoddy work, and shoddy working conditions because the job has to be done as cheaply as possible. So the gravy sucking pigs can get theirs out of the budgeted money.

Exactly. The level of corruption in Russia and it's a fair bet that corruption is involved in practically everything.

It's different for expats, it's not our country when we live there. It's not personal like it is for nationals. When i see things going wrong in Britain it's a completely different feeling than the one i get when i see things going wrong in the country i'm living in at the time.

Nobbynumbnuts
30-08-2015, 00:24
And then they get to do it over again in a year or 2 when it falls apart,maybe.

If we are talking about the works on the centre of Moscow, I don't see a shobby work, what I see looks good and made to last, for sure there will be problems,like a slab needs fixing here and brick not layed properly.

The thing is it's a no brainer. These things are easy to do. Improve the obvious and people are happy. What about the not so easy? What about the problems which are harder to solve? New parks, roads etc are a great thing to see but it's hardly rocket science...

Nobbynumbnuts
30-08-2015, 00:31
My favorite place on earth - the UK! ;) I'm sure it's not all perfect there either, but come on - safety's first, people are possibly the most polite you'll find anywhere, and my God it's a gorgeous country!


Having spent 8 enjoyable years in Russia i can say life is a lot cheaper there.

I'm living back home in the UK now, i've been here for the past year. I look around me and i think we're very lucky but you can't tell Brits that. To most the UK sucks for one reason or another. And with all honesty i can't wait to get back overseas to live and work again but for the simple reason i get bored in the UK..

Nobbynumbnuts
30-08-2015, 00:34
Lolol, each to their own Nat, I've just had family over and they were shocked cos of how wonderful Moscow is, my mum even saying over and over how it's more better than London, cleaner,wider roads,fantastic parks and stunning views at every corner , also often mentioned how nice and polite shop keepers and waitreses were.
Like their visit Moscow , you visit central London, same for my family here, I took them to all the nice touristy places,I did t see any reason to take to where I first lived here Medvedkovo,saying that, the park top orange line is awesome now and leads all the way to Bot Sad metro,all thanks to the new major.
They also visited dachaland here, Russian countryside and lakes, not enough adjectives to describe what they saw,

Moscow is a beautiful city, no doubt and i love to go there but London has more parks than any other major city in the world...

natlee
30-08-2015, 01:01
Having spent 8 enjoyable years in Russia i can say life is a lot cheaper there.

I'm living back home in the UK now, i've been here for the past year. I look around me and i think we're very lucky but you can't tell Brits that. To most the UK sucks for one reason or another. And with all honesty i can't wait to get back overseas to live and work again but for the simple reason i get bored in the UK.. Well, of course I have not lived there for more than a couple of months so don't see the full picture. But, I do know that I feel at home there - odd, because I speak American(ish) English (which seriously annoys my boyfriend :D) - not as well anymore, but could pass for a native at some stage, used to travel to and love the US and my family and friends would always say that I'd end up there. And yet having rejected the offer(s) to live in the US I find myself madly in love with the country I visited on my very first trip abroad at the age of 11 or so :) Ok, the weather's hardly perfect (but come on, Moscow's is far worse - for me anyway, for I like being warm!) but my God, I love the nature, the brick houses - I just LOVE that brick!, the language (yes, I actually wish I had been taught the 'other' English now!), the people... We were living a few hours away from London and took a day trip to see my cousin in London (didn't see past her house, Judge, so doesn't count :p), just my youngest and I, which involved taking a train and the tube with a couple of changes. Some stations didn't have elevators er lifts ;), oddly enough! (and I had a stroller on me) but my God, I did not have the chance to worry once because each time I'd have a man RUSH to my rescue! (And btw, one was a very young black man, another - not sure, possibly an Indian or a Pakistani (was in a bit of a rush to catch the next train, so did not pay much attention :shame:), and the last guy was a teenager!) Had some poor Englishman on the train share half of his French fries with my girl :bowdown: etc. Of course we have tons of nice people here - my cousin's German husband thinks Muscovites are incredibly nice and polite, which is hardly surprising given people are generally (again, not without exception!) pretty rude in Dusseldorf and thereabouts which is where they live :eek:, but, with those we have plenty you just wanna slap very hard! :rolleyes: Anyhoo... it is a personal preference, I feel great there, miss the place when I haven't been for a while and, of course, the love of my life lives there which has got to be a factor :)

Fantastika
30-08-2015, 07:54
Hi, my name is Natasha and I live in the center of the capital of what happens to be the world's largest country - a city I once used to love..

:pig:


Hi my name is Fantastika and I live in Fairfax County, Virginia, where the average household income is $120,000/year (richest county in America) and yes, I also see young people (racists) pulling down stop signs. And the thing is, if I dare to say anything to them, or try to stop them from destruction of public property, I will be arrested and charged with assault, racism and endangering the welfare of a child, and thrown in prison.

So what are you complaining about?

TolkoRaz
30-08-2015, 09:28
Hi, my name is Natasha and I live in the center of the capital of what happens to be the world's largest country - a city I once used to love..

:pig:

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5782/20970967502_448146a8b0.jpg

Out in the car again? Have you considered having more reversing lessons? ;)

TolkoRaz
30-08-2015, 09:31
Native or not, no difference,
I've been arguing with RL for a few years , I do suspect he might not be a native Russian but a sleeper,a US mole infiltrating the forum to spread western propaganda.:dizzy:

His written English is not good enough to be a citizen of the US of A unless he makes deliberate mistakes to cover his tracks! ;)

penka
30-08-2015, 09:36
His written English is not good enough to be a citizen of the US of A unless he makes deliberate mistakes to cover his tracks! ;)

Er... you think, all native speakers folks write perfectly?....;)

TolkoRaz
30-08-2015, 09:43
Er... you think, all native speakers folks write perfectly?....;)

True! Some native speakers cannot write at all, let alone read! ;)

Carl
30-08-2015, 10:01
once all is done the places under remont will look decent. .

Yeah..Decent. What more can you ask for!? Geez..what an ungrateful lot!

vossy7
30-08-2015, 10:22
Say this fast and it becomes an Oirish exclamation.......
Whale oil beef hooked !:clown:

Nobbynumbnuts
30-08-2015, 10:25
Say this fast and it becomes an Oirish exclamation.......
Whale oil beef hooked !:clown:

..that's helping with my Oirish accent no end! :winking:

natlee
30-08-2015, 12:05
Hi my name is Fantastika and I live in Fairfax County, Virginia, where the average household income is $120,000/year (richest county in America) and yes, I also see young people (racists) pulling down stop signs. And the thing is, if I dare to say anything to them, or try to stop them from destruction of public property, I will be arrested and charged with assault, racism and endangering the welfare of a child, and thrown in prison.

So what are you complaining about? I see you haven't bothered taking a proper look at the photo or reading the (rest of the) thread (the latter being more understandable), so let me give you a tip - look under the sign ;) (=No young - or old - racists have touched it! ;)) But thanks for your input anyway! :goodbye:

natlee
30-08-2015, 12:10
Out in the car again? Have you considered having more reversing lessons? ;) I see you have been there and done that! :p

rusmeister
30-08-2015, 13:51
Patriotism doesn't mean feeling happy about your country. It means loving it, even and especially when it hurts, love desires the improvement of the beloved, and love most often brings sadness when loved ones disappoint.

The instinct for patriotism is a good and right thing, no matter that the powers-that-be would exaggerate and distort it into a worship of whatever they do. It is a broader and more diffuse form of the loyalty we expect within marriage, and if English speakers have been robbed of good language to describe adultery, Russians still quite correctly speak of измена. Betrayal of the loyalty is present in both adultery and cosmopolitan despite for your own land.

The clearest thinker ever on the topic:
http://www.online-literature.com/chesterton/the-defendant/16/

Fantastika
30-08-2015, 16:34
I see you haven't bothered taking a proper look at the photo or reading the (rest of the) thread (the latter being more understandable), so let me give you a tip - look under the sign ;) (=No young - or old - racists have touched it! ;)) But thanks for your input anyway! :goodbye:

I'm just trying to say, Nat, that some people (people from Leningrad!) think prosperity and having lots of money, will improve social conditions. Not necessarily.

penka
30-08-2015, 17:18
To be very honest, I can understand one's frustration with bureaucracy, corruption, rudeness, unprofessionalism, etc.

I can very well understand the initial shock by comparison between how things work in Russia and how do they work in the Western Europe. I had it myself when came back from the first trip to Western Germany - even a simple bus ride on a clean bus gliding on a smooth road without bumps was a shocking experience.
Even one of the family's old places in the Baltics - Baltics had been part of the USSR, mind you - was well-kept and clean around the building - in the beginning of the 90s!

And I certainly can understand a regular Muscovite's anger at all the digging that is seemingly still going on.

I cannot buy the sentiment, one starts to dislike one's country because one is unhappy with Mayor Sobyanin.

natlee
30-08-2015, 18:15
I cannot buy the sentiment, one starts to dislike one's country because one is unhappy with Mayor Sobyanin. Clearly I'm talking to myself here, as no one seems to understand what I'm saying ;)

Do not have the time for this nonsense, so briefly: 1) Sobyanin is one of the MANY people and things I'm unhappy with. 2) Sobyanin's hardly the big picture here ;) 3) The reason I'm so pissed off is because I had a ton of opportunities to move, but chose to live here believing in my damn country and even its people. I made the WRONG choice, and a few times at that. And I understand all that, Rus, but I honestly have no love left for this place. What's a country anyway? What exactly am I supposed to love here? I love my man and the father of my child, will stand by him through thick and thin and would not dream of betraying him, but my country? If I'm lucky enough to be presented with another opportunity, oh I will gladly 'betray' it! ;)

penka
30-08-2015, 18:46
Clearly I'm talking to myself here, as no one seems to understand what I'm saying ;)

Do not have the time for this nonsense, so briefly: 1) Sobyanin is one of the MANY people and things I'm unhappy with. 2) Sobyanin's hardly the big picture here ;) 3) The reason I'm so pissed off is because I had a ton of opportunities to move, but chose to live here believing in my damn country and even its people. I made the WRONG choice, and a few times at that. And I understand all that, Rus, but I honestly have no love left for this place. What's a country anyway? What exactly am I supposed to love here? I love my man and the father of my child, will stand by him through thick and thin and would not dream of betraying him, but my country? If I'm lucky enough to be presented with another opportunity, oh I will gladly 'betray' it! ;)

If all the above is right and correct - there is a right decision on your behalf and cannot and should not be judged.

Apart for one tiny detail - there would not be any true reason to publish a photo of a ruined Moscow street, declaring, you are not a patriot any longer.

As for Rus - I disagree with him on a dear few occasions, but at least he lives the way he preaches. A very rare quality and he gets my full respect for that.

Carl
30-08-2015, 18:47
What exactly am I supposed to love here?

Maybe those traditional Russian values we've heard so much about lately?

natlee
30-08-2015, 19:03
If all the above is right and correct - there is a right decision on your behalf and cannot and should not be judged.

Apart for one tiny detail - there would not be any true reason to publish a photo of a ruined Moscow street, declaring, you are not a patriot any longer.

As for Rus - I disagree with him on a dear few occasions, but at least he lives the way he preaches. A very rare quality and he gets my full respect for that. Oh for f's sake! Did you expect a collage of all who kill and steal and everything that's wrong with the country? ;)

The photo was not about the digging, but zero regard for safety which is one of the things that are SERIOUSLY wrong with the place!

As for Rus, I have always said the exact same thing!

penka
30-08-2015, 19:26
Oh for f's sake! Did you expect a collage of all who kill and steal and everything that's wrong with the country? ;)

The photo was not about the digging, but zero regard for safety which is one of the things that are SERIOUSLY wrong with the place!

As for Rus, I have always said the exact same thing!

"All those who steal and kill" as you put it, is not the problem that appeared yesterday;)

You never said, what is precisely wrong with the place, though. And you do not need a justification or victimhood to leave if you wish to do so, as it is entirely your private business.

TolkoRaz
30-08-2015, 19:34
I see you have been there and done that! :p

If it had been me, I would not have left any evidence! :p

natlee
30-08-2015, 19:48
"All those who steal and kill" as you put it, is not the problem that appeared yesterday;)

You never said, what is precisely wrong with the place, though. And you do not need a justification or victimhood to leave if you wish to do so, as it is entirely your private business. I hadn't realized an explataion was required. All that steal and kill ARE the problem - I think we all know the main reason for all this digging! Too busy stealing to think about silly things like safety! ;)

Believe it or not, but it actually isn't all that easy esp when you've got kids and ties. I do hope I will one day, and sooner rather than later, but it would've been waaay easier back in the day.

penka
30-08-2015, 20:14
I hadn't realized an explataion was required. All that steal and kill ARE the problem - I think we all know the main reason for all this digging! Too busy stealing to think about silly things like safety! ;)

Believe it or not, but it actually isn't all that easy esp when you've got kids and ties. I do hope I will one day, and sooner rather than later, but it would've been waaay easier back in the day.


I will never understand the Russian way of thinking and interacting, I'm afraid....

frankdulzone
30-08-2015, 20:17
I will never understand the Russian way of thinking and interacting, I'm afraid....

aren't you Russian? But aren't you just blessed with personal circumstances that allow you to live OUTSIDE Russia?

penka
30-08-2015, 20:24
aren't you Russian? But aren't you just blessed with personal circumstances that allow you to live OUTSIDE Russia?

I am part Russian, part German. My family comes from the "priviledged" class turned to nothing by the Revolution. I was educated in Germany and Russia and had an established position on my own before I married a man, also listed in the Almanach de Gotha and came to live in Sweden, which I consider my primary home. I do not hate Russia, though I find a lot of things incomprehensible and illogical in Russia. My elderly parents live in Moscow and wish not not to move elsewhere but travelling on occasion. Anything further you wish to know?

frankdulzone
30-08-2015, 20:32
I am part Russian, part German. My family comes from the "priviledged" class turned to nothing by the Revolution. I was educated in Germany and Russia and had an established position on my own before I married a man, also listed in the Almanach de Gotha and came to live in Sweden, which I consider my primary home. I do not hate Russia, though I find a lot of things incomprehensible and illogical in Russia. My elderly parents live in Moscow and wish not not to move elsewhere but travelling on occasion. Anything further you wish to know?
I wasn't judging or quizzing you. I was just surprised at how flippant you are towards Nat's frustrations, especially since you yourself just visited Moscow and started a thread about how much it's changed since you were there last.

penka
30-08-2015, 20:45
I wasn't judging or quizzing you. I was just surprised at how flippant you are towards Nat's frustrations, especially since you yourself just visited Moscow and started a thread about how much it's changed since you were there last.

Not flippant per se but failing to see any logic. And I fail to believe in feeble logic.

Things were never glorious. Things have been very bad and scary - I've been in Moscow when they were shooting at the "White House". Early 90s have been very unpleasant, e.g. Yet I've seen employers failing to show up - "My kid got sick" and we have a scheduled meeting in ONE f*ing hour! - no reference to another intrepreter, no nothing - when salaries were not payed for months! That is the attitude.

As for my being last - I'm frequently in Moscow for the last several years as my parents live here and they need my help.

penka
30-08-2015, 20:47
I wasn't judging or quizzing you. I was just surprised at how flippant you are towards Nat's frustrations, especially since you yourself just visited Moscow and started a thread about how much it's changed since you were there last.

Not flippant per se but failing to see any logic. And I fail to believe in feeble logic.

Things were never glorious. Things have been very bad and scary - I've been in Moscow when they were shooting at the "White House". Early 90s have been very unpleasant, e.g. Yet I've seen employers failing to show up - "My kid got sick" and we have a scheduled meeting in ONE f*ing hour! - no reference to another intrepreter, no nothing - when salaries were not payed for months! That is the attitude.

What I am trying to say is - people love to blame the government for everything - you didn't do that, and you did that in a stupid way but they are unwilling to do anything themselves, including the small things. That is the core of the local history - serfs till 1861 - the state will take care of us. The state treats me bad? - I will cheat on the state! Why do you think, there is shit corruption even on the lowest levels of hierarchy? Is that the government's flaw? Why do people throw garbage wherever they go? they protest that way against the government? RL says, he works as a freelance. Does he pay the taxes? He protests that way against the evil regime?

As for my being last in Moscow - I'm frequently in Moscow for the last several years as my parents live here and they need my help.

Armoured
30-08-2015, 20:48
Apart for one tiny detail - there would not be any true reason to publish a photo of a ruined Moscow street, declaring, you are not a patriot any longer.

What would be? Seriously. Pictures of a collapsed army barracks in which dozens of young soldiers die? Some horrific traffic accident, with statistics of how many road deaths? What might be _enough_?

natlee
30-08-2015, 21:22
I will never understand the Russian way of thinking and interacting, I'm afraid....

Eh?

natlee
30-08-2015, 21:32
What I am trying to say is - people love to blame the government for everything - you didn't do that, and you did that in a stupid way but they are unwilling to do anything themselves, including the small things. That is the core of the local history - serfs till 1861 - the state will take care of us. The state treats me bad? - I will cheat on the state! Why do you think, there is shit corruption even on the lowest levels of hierarchy? Is that the government's flaw? Why do people throw garbage wherever they go? they protest that way against the government? RL says, he works as a freelance. Does he pay the taxes? He protests that way against the evil regime? I don't throw garbage anywhere except the bins and pay my taxes. I teach my kids to be nice both to their, other people's and common property. I try my best to not break any laws, but if/when I do - I pay the fines. What exactly do you expect me to do, go on one of those protests? ;)

penka
30-08-2015, 21:47
What would be? Seriously. Pictures of a collapsed army barracks in which dozens of young soldiers die? Some horrific traffic accident, with statistics of how many road deaths? What might be _enough_?

You want me to make predictions about Russia?:) I thought, Russian Lad was doing the job:)

Frankly, Russians are no better better or worse than any other nation. They are very different from the Europeans, that's for sure.
Their logics, just like the old Moscow map is very feminine. There, the West has no chance.
They got a vast country, harsh climate, they have been serfs till 1861, they had communism since 1917, they have Orthodox religion. You know, what that means?
My God and my God given ruler will decide.
Russians are more tolerant than any other nation and are more forgiving and are less cruel. And more negligent to the everyday vagarities of live. They will throw garbage and complain in the kitchen an tolerate things no sane Westerner would ever tolerate. They believe in Chance and Providence. When things get impossible, they can survive better than any other nation. They love the poor ones and the redeeming ones and forgive easily. They makes excessively skilful craftsmen - from furniture to dentists to rocket scientists. They cannot let drinking vodka and spending as if there is no tomorrow but they can stop the Napoleon's army and send a man into space. They either bite in and take it as it is or they start hating themselves and their own country.

As any hate of one's own country is nothing else as the hatred of one's own family and oneself. And that is why I buy not any damsel in distress arguments, whoever they come from, male or female.

You want a prediction?:) New Emperor, new President or a new Secretary General won't change a thing. You really want a revolution and chaos in a nuclear power?... Oh dear. Know about painter Vassily Vereshagin? He died on a battleship, painting. And yes, they sank their ship with a crew. And he knew beforehand. You want any change? Look in the mirror. And make a change yourself. Teach your children to make a change. In a few generations, there might be a change:)

penka
30-08-2015, 21:54
I don't throw garbage anywhere except the bins and pay my taxes. I teach my kids to be nice both to their, other people's and common property. I try my best to not break any laws, but if/when I do - I pay the fines. What exactly do you expect me to do, go on one of those protests? ;)


Nat, I do understand if you start to find the situation intolerable and found a way to leave. And especially so, if you found a great love. That is splendid!
Why the street pic and "no patriot" claim? No-one demands any patriotic claims here. You do not need any justification or approval. What's the fuss? Would be more understandable if you'd simply said, you're pissed with Moscow. Fine. I dislike Moscow. Join the club. What's the deal?

natlee
30-08-2015, 22:12
Nat, I do understand if you start to find the situation intolerable and found a way to leave. And especially so, if you found a great love. That is splendid!
Why the street pic and "no patriot" claim? No-one demands any patriotic claims here. You do not need any justification or approval. What's the fuss? Would be more understandable if you'd simply said, you're pissed with Moscow. Fine. I dislike Moscow. Join the club. What's the deal? LOL! What have you been smoking, Pen? Hey, since you clearly have tons of time, how about you go through every thread checking a) whether the titles perfectly match the OPs and b) whether those threads, to you, sound as though the OPs are trying to justify themselves in one way or another :big-grin:

frankdulzone
30-08-2015, 22:12
No-one demands any patriotic claims here.

That is not entirely true. Rumpelstilskin gets way with seething US bashing simply because it's the US, when the forum rules clearly forbid it.

natlee
30-08-2015, 22:27
I am part Russian, part German. Is one of your parents German?

penka
30-08-2015, 22:40
LOL! What have you been smoking, Pen? Hey, since you clearly have tons of time, how about you go through every thread checking a) whether the titles perfectly match the OPs and b) whether those threads, to you, sound as though the OPs are trying to justify themselves in one way or another :big-grin:

Marlboros, as usual:)

They don't. But they usually don't to extend of a visual and the verbal, Nat.

No, I don't have tons of time. I have a family to provide for and the state(s) to pay taxes to. No sugar daddy. Life's hard, mind you.

penka
30-08-2015, 22:40
That is not entirely true. Rumpelstilskin gets way with seething US bashing simply because it's the US, when the forum rules clearly forbid it.


Oh please. Rumple writes rubbish most of the time!

penka
30-08-2015, 22:43
Is one of your parents German?


Why do you wonder?

natlee
30-08-2015, 22:59
Why do you wonder?

Because you've talked lots about being practically royalty and "part Russian, part German" - which would normally mean one Russian parent and the other German... or, at least, a German grandfather/grandmother.. Never mind, not the type of info I can't live without ;)

natlee
30-08-2015, 23:04
Marlboros, as usual:) Not good, not good at all! ;)


They don't. But they usually don't to extend of a visual and the verbal, Nat. Eh?


No, I don't have tons of time. I have a family to provide for and the state(s) to pay taxes to. No sugar daddy. Life's hard, mind you. I'm sure you're the only one on here with such a hard life! ;)

Carl
30-08-2015, 23:07
Because you've talked lots about being practically royalty

You, Nat, you are not paying attention! Not 'practically'..but certified!
HELLO..!! Almanach de Gotha!!! And she even had a royal wedding!!

natlee
30-08-2015, 23:07
You, Nat, you are not paying attention! Not 'practically'..but certified!
HELLO..!! Almanach de Gotha!!! And she even had a royal wedding!! :bowdown:

penka
30-08-2015, 23:08
Because you've talked lots about being practically royalty and "part Russian, part German" - which would normally mean one Russian parent and the other German... or, at least, a German grandfather/grandmother.. Never mind, not the type of info I can't live without ;)

Oh no, never said Royal. Almanac de Gotha, it's different to the nuance:) Yes, German part of the family, some were and are Lutherans. Rus would know the difference from the Orthodox:)

penka
30-08-2015, 23:11
You, Nat, you are not paying attention! Not 'practically'..but certified!
HELLO..!! Almanach de Gotha!!! And she even had a royal wedding!!


I did?.... I'm flabbergasted!!!:) No, I did not.
Carl, you seem upset with everything, frankly. Most of nobility is far from being rich, frankly.

penka
30-08-2015, 23:15
Not good, not good at all! ;)

Eh?

I'm sure you're the only one on here with such a hard life! ;)

I wouldn't know. I got no children to claim child benefits from a rich daddy. And I had quite simple divorces without attempting to grab and run.

I make money for sure, but those are not that magnificent sums after taxes:(

You sound upset. Did I step on your toes, by chance?...

natlee
30-08-2015, 23:36
I wouldn't know. I got no children to claim child benefits from a rich daddy. And I had quite simple divorces without attempting to grab and run.

I make money for sure, but those are not that magnificent sums after taxes:(

You sound upset. Did I step on your toes, by chance?... Wow...

Yup, I only had children so I could sit on my a$$ all day (because raising them is the easiest job in the world - fun and games only! :) ) because their fathers give me millions, weekly! I don't have a job to do on top of being a full-time mom of two, because money has never been an issue for me! :nut: Yup, you're spot on! ;)

penka
30-08-2015, 23:56
Wow...

Yup, I only had children so I could sit on my a$$ all day (because raising them is the easiest job in the world - fun and games only! :) ) because their fathers give me millions, weekly! I don't have a job to do on top of being a full-time mom of two, because money has never been an issue for me! :nut: Yup, you're spot on! ;)


Er, its shit difficult with women....

I got no children - I got no right to any benefits. I'm single in all senses - not dating or anything - I just work, whatever I earn is mine and is for the benefit of my family.

I payed for my first divorce. I was an idiot and he had an offshore. Ok, throw a stone now.

There are millions of things I do hate with Moscow. And with Russia. And there are a few ones I do love.

I regret I married my first husband and I am upset I divorced my second one, as he keeps on teasing me and checking on me.

I believe, Sobyanin is the worst mayor for Moscow, but that does not bring any hatred for Russia in me.

I could get another passport and leave well before I got married. For those who are curious.

Female logics drives me nuts. When applied by males, no good.

rusmeister
30-08-2015, 23:57
Clearly I'm talking to myself here, as no one seems to understand what I'm saying ;)

Do not have the time for this nonsense, so briefly: 1) Sobyanin is one of the MANY people and things I'm unhappy with. 2) Sobyanin's hardly the big picture here ;) 3) The reason I'm so pissed off is because I had a ton of opportunities to move, but chose to live here believing in my damn country and even its people. I made the WRONG choice, and a few times at that. And I understand all that, Rus, but I honestly have no love left for this place. What's a country anyway? What exactly am I supposed to love here? I love my man and the father of my child, will stand by him through thick and thin and would not dream of betraying him, but my country? If I'm lucky enough to be presented with another opportunity, oh I will gladly 'betray' it! ;)

If I can try to clarify my own meaning a little...
We can't really love an insanely huge, abstract thing. But we CAN love our friends and neighbors, and the lands we grew up in, ran and played in, and feel pain to see the people gone and the lands despoiled. We can also love our adopted land, and the friends and neighbors we have come to know over the years.
I think the ideal is "small is beautiful" .
If Americans hypothetically invaded Russia, or Russians invaded America, I would denounce it, but wouldn't be able to do much about it. But if they invaded the lands I grew up in (and which my family still lives), or the town that is now my home and friends and family here, give me a gun and I'll shoot until they take me down.

natlee
31-08-2015, 00:03
Er, its shit difficult with women....

I got no children - I got no right to any benefits. I'm single in all senses - not dating or anything - I just work, whatever I earn is mine and is for the benefit of my family.

I payed for my first divorce. I was an idiot and he had an offshore. Ok, throw a stone now.

There are millions of things I do hate with Moscow. And with Russia. And there are a few ones I do love.

I regret I married my first husband and I am upset I divorced my second one, as he keeps on teasing me and checking on me.

I believe, Sobyanin is the worst mayor for Moscow, but that does not bring any hatred for Russia in me.

I could get another passport and leave well before I got married. For those who are curious.

Female logics drives me nuts. When applied by males, no good. So having realized your previous post was ignorant, not to mention beyond bitchy you're now making a pathetic attempt to show you hadn't meant it as such - as if? A lousy job, I'm sorry to say.

I really don't care about your private life, where you get your money from or what/who you spend it on. Whatever makes you happy!

penka
31-08-2015, 00:20
So having realized your previous post was ignorant, not to mention beyond bitchy you're now making a pathetic attempt to show you hadn't meant it as such - as if? A lousy job, I'm sorry to say.

I really don't care about your private life, where you get your money from or what/who you spend it on. Whatever makes you happy!

As you wish. I don't accept any lame bitching along Sobyanin is a bad mayor - I hate Russia.

penka
31-08-2015, 00:23
If I can try to clarify my own meaning a little...
We can't really love an insanely huge, abstract thing. But we CAN love our friends and neighbors, and the lands we grew up in, ran and played in, and feel pain to see the people gone and the lands despoiled. We can also love our adopted land, and the friends and neighbors we have come to know over the years.
I think the ideal is "small is beautiful" .
If Americans hypothetically invaded Russia, or Russians invaded America, I would denounce it, but wouldn't be able to do much about it. But if they invaded the lands I grew up in (and which my family still lives), or the town that is now my home and friends and family here, give me a gun and I'll shoot until they take me down.

That is very true...

frankdulzone
31-08-2015, 00:25
As you wish. I don't accept any lame bitching along Sobyanin is a bad mayor - I hate Russia.

you know as well as anyone when someone says "I am not a patriot" it's referring to the hyperbolic definition of those Russians who see no evil in Russia and it's Putin culture, and blame all on external thought saboteurs inevitably from the west, and likely Nuland herself.

I am 100% sure Natlee was never saying she "hates Russia." It sounds like she is sick of the corruption and not sure what course a peaceable, honest citizen is to take.


But if they invaded the lands I grew up in (and which my family still lives), or the town that is now my home and friends and family here, give me a gun and I'll shoot until they take me down.

Any invasion, from either side, would be done with missiles, and small arms aren't likely to dissuade an ICBM.

Nobbynumbnuts
31-08-2015, 00:31
[/B]

That is very true...

I actually disagree. If any part of England were under military threat, not just where i live or was born, i would do my utmost to protect it. In that respect i would show loyalty to my people and country..

penka
31-08-2015, 00:36
you know as well as anyone when someone says "I am not a patriot" it's referring to the hyperbolic definition of those Russians who see no evil in Russia and it's Putin culture, and blame all on external thought saboteurs inevitably from the west, and likely Nuland herself.

I am 100% sure Natlee was never saying she "hates Russia." It sounds like she is sick of the corruption and not sure what course a peaceable, honest citizen is to take.



Any invasion, from either side, would be done with missiles, and small arms aren't likely to dissuade an ICBM.

Please, do specify the period, when there was no corruption. Nat is 19 and that ignorant? I give her more credit than that!

Yes, you're right about the modern invasion methods. You're missing something here, my friend:)

penka
31-08-2015, 00:38
I actually disagree. If any part of England were under military threat, not just where i live or was born, i would do my utmost to protect it. In that respect i would show loyalty to my people and country..

Nobby, you are too old to take to arms even for the noble cause.....

natlee
31-08-2015, 00:39
If I can try to clarify my own meaning a little...
We can't really love an insanely huge, abstract thing. But we CAN love our friends and neighbors, and the lands we grew up in, ran and played in, and feel pain to see the people gone and the lands despoiled. We can also love our adopted land, and the friends and neighbors we have come to know over the years.
I think the ideal is "small is beautiful" .
If Americans hypothetically invaded Russia, or Russians invaded America, I would denounce it, but wouldn't be able to do much about it. But if they invaded the lands I grew up in (and which my family still lives), or the town that is now my home and friends and family here, give me a gun and I'll shoot until they take me down. Thank you. Well, I did use to feel pain to see the 'lands despoiled' but have stopped allowing myself to feel that pain, to an extent anyway - I feel that I have done what I could (from having tried to stop the teens from messing up what was left of a once beautiful area, on a number of occasions, to speaking to a local deputy about fixing it etc.), but have seen and felt nothing other than.. more pain! My friends... I've got a couple here, but I actually have more overseas now! Of course, it still upsets and hurts to see what's been happening, but I would not fight for the lands - only the people.

Nobbynumbnuts
31-08-2015, 00:41
Nobby, you are too old.....

Ain't that the truth! :winking:

natlee
31-08-2015, 00:41
As you wish. I don't accept any lame bitching along Sobyanin is a bad mayor - I hate Russia. LOL! What a fecking waste of effort on my part - shouldn't have bothered writing past the OP!

frankdulzone
31-08-2015, 00:44
Please, do specify the period, when there was no corruption.
Why should it be accepted because it's existed "forever". Russia has had a hard transition from Aristocracy, through a different "form" in Authoritarian Socialism. An opportunity (or many) were certainly lost when the West engaged a non-USSR Russia. But the fight for the Russian soul are only for Russians to solve and conquer.

Nobbynumbnuts
31-08-2015, 00:45
LOL! What a fecking waste of effort on my part - shouldn't have bothered writing past the OP!

No, you made a good point. I fully understand your disillusionment. The Russian government is corrupt, ineffective and lazy and unless people speak out nothing will ever change..

penka
31-08-2015, 00:47
LOL! What a fecking waste of effort on my part - shouldn't have bothered writing past the OP!

:)

penka
31-08-2015, 00:51
No, you made a good point. I fully understand your disillusionment. The Russian government is corrupt, ineffective and lazy and unless people speak out nothing will ever change..

Nobby... Quite a few people in the UK are upset with the current migration. Do they go any any further but the online comments?.... You got but a small island....

Nobbynumbnuts
31-08-2015, 00:53
Nobby... Quite a few people in the UK are upset with the current migration. Do they go any any further but the online comments?.... You got but a small island....

No, they go to the polls. We change governments on a regular basis when enough people are fed up with the status quo..

penka
31-08-2015, 00:59
No, they go to the polls. We change governments on a regular basis when enough people are fed up with the status quo..

And they still keep on coming en masse?..... Shit, you must be changing one wrong gov to another wrong one!

Nobbynumbnuts
31-08-2015, 01:05
And they still keep on coming en masse?..... Shit, you must be changing one wrong gov to another wrong one!

I'm not saying we have a perfect system but Britain is in a better place than Russia, if you exclude the fact we are not a military super power. But Brits have no desire for that anyway...

frankdulzone
31-08-2015, 01:09
we are not a military super power.

neither is Russia...

Nobbynumbnuts
31-08-2015, 01:14
neither is Russia...

I don't know a lot about the military but i do know they have a huge arsenal of nuclear weapons, very large military infrastructure and a lot of uniformed men..

frankdulzone
31-08-2015, 02:39
I don't know a lot about the military but i do know they have a huge arsenal of nuclear weapons, very large military infrastructure and a lot of uniformed men..They are a formidable regional power. They can patrol effectively where they have a land bridge, however they cannot project their force with a navy. North Korea has nuclear weapons, which makes them dangerous, but it doesn't make them effective on the Korean peninsula without China. Russia knows if they fire their nukes, the USA will be forced to respond, and Russia has far fewer important targets than the United States.

I am not dismissing Russian grit, determination and intelligence, but after years and years of draw down from the Soviet days, their military is not what it once was when they could invade Poland with impunity.

Russian Lad
31-08-2015, 03:02
Just bumped onto this one, a great thread, the title is wrong though, Natlee, I will explain later why.


I've been arguing with RL for a few years

It looks like you are losing this long-lasting intellectual battle. Wonder if I take prisoners, I will decide on this later if you allow me.:party:
An anecdote for you, Judge:
- They say people have almost stopped drinking alcohol in Moscow.
- Why is that?
-Allah prohibits it!

Anyway, Natlee, they are trying to privatize the notion "patriot" - they, you know whom I am talking about. Our message to them should be - you are fake patriots, we are the real ones! You can change the title to "Why I don't want to be a fake Russian patriot". The division line lies way deeper than you suspect at the moment, the rift will be widening very fast. The difference between us is like the difference between the past and the future. They are the past - the dead, buried (but exhumated) past. Figuratively speaking, they are intellectual cadavers. After all, you don't really want to associate yourself with them?:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzHxzEtTIew

rusmeister
31-08-2015, 08:57
you know as well as anyone when someone says "I am not a patriot" it's referring to the hyperbolic definition of those Russians who see no evil in Russia and it's Putin culture, and blame all on external thought saboteurs inevitably from the west, and likely Nuland herself.

I am 100% sure Natlee was never saying she "hates Russia." It sounds like she is sick of the corruption and not sure what course a peaceable, honest citizen is to take.



Any invasion, from either side, would be done with missiles, and small arms aren't likely to dissuade an ICBM.
I agree, except that missiles are not invasion, though they are attack.

rusmeister
31-08-2015, 09:03
I'm not saying we have a perfect system but Britain is in a better place than Russia, if you exclude the fact we are not a military super power. But Brits have no desire for that anyway...

That's the biggest load of ******* twaddle i've ever read... :)

Seriously, though, I think your general attitude to be that of normal patriotism.
I would note, though, that a hundred years ago, British Jingoism certainly did promote the desire to be a military superpower. The Boer Wars were symptomatic of that desire. Chesterton spoke along lines you would agree with, if you ever got over your prejudice. You would find that he promoted local patriotism while condemning imperialism (now renvented as globalism).

vossy7
31-08-2015, 09:26
I'm not saying we have a perfect system but Britain is in a better place than Russia, if you exclude the fact we are not a military super power. But Brits have no desire for that anyway...

Well Nobbs........the Irish always felt that the Brits are a Military Super Power ever since they overpowered the defenseless Emerald Isle many moons ago .....if they tried it again though they would have to overcome our 7......yes 7 coastal patrol vessels which make up the Irish Navy:scared:

rusmeister
31-08-2015, 09:41
Just bumped onto this one, a great thread, the title is wrong though, Natlee, I will explain later why.



It looks like you are losing this long-lasting intellectual battle. Wonder if I take prisoners, I will decide on this later if you allow me.:party:
An anecdote for you, Judge:
- They say people have almost stopped drinking alcohol in Moscow.
- Why is that?
-Allah prohibits it!

Anyway, Natlee, they are trying to privatize the notion "patriot" - they, you know whom I am talking about. Our message to them should be - you are fake patriots, we are the real ones! You can change the title to "Why I don't want to be a fake Russian patriot". The division line lies way deeper than you suspect at the moment, the rift will be widening very fast. The difference between us is like the difference between the past and the future. They are the past - the dead, buried (but exhumated) past. Figuratively speaking, they are intellectual cadavers. After all, you don't really want to associate yourself with them?:


There are things I agree with you on here, especially on the privatization of patriotism.
But you seem here to think that time guarantees progress, the kind of progress toward what is good for us. The ideas of the dead are bad, those of the future are good, you imply. I don't think that the case at all. The Bolsheviks bravely looked toward the future a hundred years ago, and their ideas produced the Russian tragedy of the 20th century, the consequences of which we are still living with.

I would be impressed if anybody who could read and show understanding of this. Intellectual battles require a display of actual intellect, and I hold out hope that you really can display it.
http://www.online-literature.com/chesterton/what-i-saw-in-america/19/

bydand
31-08-2015, 09:58
"Why I'm no nationalist" might be a more apt title for this thread. Nationalists are what I think Lad is calling fake patriots. Nationalists blindly think their nation can do no wrong. Patriots see not all is as it should be, but love their nation enough to try and change it. Perhaps Nemtsov was a patriot.

Nobbynumbnuts
31-08-2015, 10:47
Well Nobbs........the Irish always felt that the Brits are a Military Super Power ever since they overpowered the defenseless Emerald Isle many moons ago .....if they tried it again though they would have to overcome our 7......yes 7 coastal patrol vessels which make up the Irish Navy:scared:

We'd attack at happy hour! :winking:

Nobbynumbnuts
31-08-2015, 11:02
That's the biggest load of ******* twaddle i've ever read... :)

Seriously, though, I think your general attitude to be that of normal patriotism.
I would note, though, that a hundred years ago, British Jingoism certainly did promote the desire to be a military superpower. The Boer Wars were symptomatic of that desire. Chesterton spoke along lines you would agree with, if you ever got over your prejudice. You would find that he promoted local patriotism while condemning imperialism (now renvented as globalism).

We all know that Britain was a super power for hundreds of years, a hundred years ago. But now Brits are content reading historical accounts of our daring-do. Don't think there's any appetite for a huge military any more. It's all about jobs, immigration, health care, the economy etc. Russians are not vocal enough about these issues, in my opinion...

natlee
31-08-2015, 11:44
"Why I'm no nationalist" might be a more apt title for this thread. Nationalists are what I think Lad is calling fake patriots. Nationalists blindly think their nation can do no wrong. Patriots see not all is as it should be, but love their nation enough to try and change it. Perhaps Nemtsov was a patriot. We keep having these discussions about the true meaning of terms, like we did with "homophob", for instance, which, of course, should mean "afraid of homosexuals" but has come to mean something quite a bit different. I used the word in its simpler sense to mean that you will no longer be seeing me stand up for my country as it is today in Russia bashing threads and talks, because I'm very unhappy with what has become of it. Which probably means that I care, which probably makes me a bit of a patriot! :eek: ;) Should've named the thread "What has become of my city" or something similar to avoid the confusion! :)

Alan65
31-08-2015, 11:45
Well Nobbs........the Irish always felt that the Brits are a Military Super Power ever since they overpowered the defenseless Emerald Isle many moons ago .....if they tried it again though they would have to overcome our 7......yes 7 coastal patrol vessels which make up the Irish Navy:scared:

The Irish navy

http://painterfactory.com/essentials/f/80/t/16966

FatAndy
31-08-2015, 11:57
their military is not what it once was when they could invade Poland with impunity.
Sure. :) And that time we did everything as good and correct as possible in those forced/compelled situation.











:emote_popcorn:

bydand
31-08-2015, 13:14
We keep having these discussions about the true meaning of terms, like we did with "homophob", for instance, which, of course, should mean "afraid of homosexuals" but has come to mean something quite a bit different. I used the word in its simpler sense to mean that you will no longer be seeing me stand up for my country as it is today in Russia bashing threads and talks, because I'm very unhappy with what has become of it. Which probably means that I care, which probably makes me a bit of a patriot! :eek: ;) Should've named the thread "What has become of my city" or something similar to avoid the confusion! :)

I'm glad you didn't, it might not have gotten as many responses, and IMHO not many were confused. It seems the nationalists on this forum can not see themselves as anything but patriots. So much so that our Lad has come to call them fake patriots, IMO hoping against hope someday they will see whats real. I don't believe Lad want's Russia(ns) to suffer as he predicts, rather sees the self inflicted suffering as a means to make blind nationalists think twice.

Russian Lad
31-08-2015, 14:32
But you seem here to think that time guarantees progress, the kind of progress toward what is good for us. The ideas of the dead are bad, those of the future are good, you imply. I don't think that the case at all. The Bolsheviks bravely looked toward the future a hundred years ago, and their ideas produced the Russian tragedy of the 20th century, the consequences of which we are still living with.

You are hoping to throw religion in here, well, my opinion is your religion belongs to the past, we need a totally new religion, a better one, because we have entered a new level of progress. Besides, the leaders of your religion seem to have discredited it beyond repair, at least here in Russia.
And guess what? When humanity needs a new religion, this religion is usually invented. It happened with yours 2K years ago, it was good enough to keep stray shepherds in check. But I don't want this to turn into a religious discussion. What we are discussing has nothing to do with religion. Almost all Russians who were murdering each other in 1917-1924 were Christians, don't forget about that, there weren't many atheists around here in Russia in 1917...
In my opinion, religion serves to keep people in a mental coop though, which may be good for repression of thought and aspirations, but probably we need to reinvent the term "religion". In this respect, you can write your name with golden letters into history, be brave enough, you have the intellectual base but you lack a daring of your own. Make a dent in the Universe, Rusmeister. Steve Jobs did it with gadgets, you can do it with religion.

rusmeister
31-08-2015, 15:23
"Why I'm no nationalist" might be a more apt title for this thread. Nationalists are what I think Lad is calling fake patriots. Nationalists blindly think their nation can do no wrong. Patriots see not all is as it should be, but love their nation enough to try and change it. Perhaps Nemtsov was a patriot.

Anybody who reads the link I posted will see that that issue is addressed.
But the two Latin words at their root mean essentially the same thing. Whether you say "natio" or "patria", you're talking about someone who thinks the homeland matters.

rusmeister
31-08-2015, 15:31
We keep having these discussions about the true meaning of terms, like we did with "homophob", for instance, which, of course, should mean "afraid of homosexuals" but has come to mean something quite a bit different. I used the word in its simpler sense to mean that you will no longer be seeing me stand up for my country as it is today in Russia bashing threads and talks, because I'm very unhappy with what has become of it. Which probably means that I care, which probably makes me a bit of a patriot! :eek: ;) Should've named the thread "What has become of my city" or something similar to avoid the confusion! :)
I would note that words today "come to mean things" because those who control the media and publc education want them to mean those things. It's not natural language development at all any more. It's manipulation. The purpose of a word like "homophobe" is to cast the person who objects to such behavior as irrational and insane from the outset, before any thought or talk has begun. It is a rhetorical weapon, and such things do not speak truth.

I do agree completely - words matter, their meaning matters. It matters that we have stopped using our ancestors' terms and use the terms fed us in the media - "gender" instead of "sex", for instance. We mostly don't think about the meaning of the words we use. We just repeat what we hear.

rusmeister
31-08-2015, 15:33
You are hoping to throw religion in here, well, my opinion is your religion belongs to the past, we need a totally new religion, a better one, because we have entered a new level of progress. Besides, the leaders of your religion seem to have discredited it beyond repair, at least here in Russia.
And guess what? When humanity needs a new religion, this religion is usually invented. It happened with yours 2K years ago, it was good enough to keep stray shepherds in check. But I don't want this to turn into a religious discussion. What we are discussing has nothing to do with religion. Almost all Russians who were murdering each other in 1917-1924 were Christians, don't forget about that, there weren't many atheists around here in Russia in 1917...
In my opinion, religion serves to keep people in a mental coop though, which may be good for repression of thought and aspirations, but probably we need to reinvent the term "religion". In this respect, you can write your name with golden letters into history, be brave enough, you have the intellectual base but you lack a daring of your own. Make a dent in the Universe, Rusmeister. Steve Jobs did it with gadgets, you can do it with religion.

I would be impressed if anybody who could read and show understanding of this. Intellectual battles require a display of actual intellect, and I hold out hope that you really can display it.
http://www.online-literature.com/che...in-america/19/

So you're saying I shouldn't bother hoping...

Russian Lad
31-08-2015, 16:21
Up to you, Rusmeister, you are in full command of your own hopes.

mednat
31-08-2015, 16:31
I have bacome depressed of Sweden.
I wish you to live some years in West to see the reality.

Russian Lad
31-08-2015, 16:59
I have bacome depressed of Sweden.
I wish you to live some years in West to see the reality.

If you are talking to me - I lived in the US for half a year. I enjoyed it. But thank you for trying to open my eyes to reality.

FatAndy
31-08-2015, 17:53
I have bacome depressed of Sweden.
Me too. They didn't allow me my flask with brandy at connection from SVO to CDG in ARN. Savages, one word... :verycool:

bydand
31-08-2015, 18:17
Patriotism and Nationalism
"“My country, right or wrong,” is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, “My mother, drunk or sober.””
G.K. Chesterton, The Defendant

Uncle Wally
31-08-2015, 21:41
If you are talking to me - I lived in the US for half a year. I enjoyed it. But thank you for trying to open my eyes to reality.



6 months is nothing. Talk to us after 6 years.

Uncle Wally
31-08-2015, 21:43
Hi, my name is Natasha and I live in the center of the capital of what happens to be the world's largest country - a city I once used to love..

:pig:

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5782/20970967502_448146a8b0.jpg



Oh poor Natlee, you want me to come by tomorrow and rip that sign out of the ground for you?

Russian Lad
31-08-2015, 23:03
Oh poor Natlee, you want me to come by tomorrow and rip that sign out of the ground for you?

Will you finish that house reconstruction and will you pave the kerb too? Wally the Construction Wizard? Natlee, get one liter bottle of vodka ready, I doubt he will accept rubles...




6 months is nothing. Talk to us after 6 years.

Who decides? Maybe some dumb people need years, half a year was enough for me to form an opinion about the country. I also worked for a US company here in Russia for many years, even had an American girlfriend for a while.

rusmeister
01-09-2015, 06:20
Up to you, Rusmeister, you are in full command of your own hopes.

You spoke of intellectual battles, and then show an unwillingness to engage in one.
You can only take prisoners if you engage and win. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of hot air.

Russian Lad
01-09-2015, 09:05
You spoke of intellectual battles, and then show an unwillingness to engage in one.
You can only take prisoners if you engage and win. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of hot air.


Hot air is coming from your side, not from mine - after all, I am not denying you intelligence but you are offending mine. Up to you, but I reckon such a mepris-filled stance only undermines and disparages your Chesterton distribution efforts.
At this historical juncture though, if I was a devout Russian Orthodox, I would humbly crawl to the biggest city square on my bleeding knees, naked and covered in ashes, and would pray for days in a row, hoping against all hopes for God's forgiveness and mercy, seriously (and if you are not seeing what I mean here, it is, again, entirely your problem). I strongly doubt God's forgiveness is in the pipeline, at least the story of Cain and Avel tells me He is rather strict regarding such matters... Again, I am not religious, but I respect your right to be religious, as long as you don't impose your religion on me.

FatAndy
01-09-2015, 10:05
6 months is nothing. Talk to us after 6 years.
There is even anecdote about a righteous person in Hell - "sorry, dude, tourism is tourism, but prp is prp" ;)

rusmeister
01-09-2015, 16:03
Hot air is coming from your side, not from mine - after all, I am not denying you intelligence but you are offending mine. Up to you, but I reckon such a mepris-filled stance only undermines and disparages your Chesterton distribution efforts.
At this historical juncture though, if I was a devout Russian Orthodox, I would humbly crawl to the biggest city square on my bleeding knees, naked and covered in ashes, and would pray for days in a row, hoping against all hopes for God's forgiveness and mercy, seriously (and if you are not seeing what I mean here, it is, again, entirely your problem). I strongly doubt God's forgiveness is in the pipeline, at least the story of Cain and Avel tells me He is rather strict regarding such matters... Again, I am not religious, but I respect your right to be religious, as long as you don't impose your religion on me.
Not impressed by your evasion of an intelligent text about patriotism.
You can try to shift attention to real and perceived (and even imagined) sins of Christians, but I still note a complete refusal or inability to read a text about patriotism and think about it. No one's even talking about religion here, except you. You speak about intellectual battles and "taking prisoners", then do everything you can to avoid fighting one.

Russian Lad
01-09-2015, 20:37
I have nothing to add...

quincy
02-09-2015, 11:43
I would note that words today "come to mean things" because those who control the media and publc education want them to mean those things. It's not natural language development at all any more. It's manipulation. The purpose of a word like "homophobe" is to cast the person who objects to such behavior as irrational and insane from the outset, before any thought or talk has begun. It is a rhetorical weapon, and such things do not speak truth.

I do agree completely - words matter, their meaning matters. It matters that we have stopped using our ancestors' terms and use the terms fed us in the media - "gender" instead of "sex", for instance. We mostly don't think about the meaning of the words we use. We just repeat what we hear.

You make some good points. Most people are busy and don't have time to reflect, so end up repeating what they hear/read from the media