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fenrir
27-06-2015, 12:46
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/russia-backs-down-abandoning-gas-172559337.html

Trouble in gas transit paradise? Looks like the Turks might start playing hardball.

Uncle Wally
27-06-2015, 12:58
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/russia-backs-down-abandoning-gas-172559337.html

Trouble in gas transit paradise? Looks like the Turks might start playing hardball.



Just makes your day don't it.

FatAndy
27-06-2015, 13:37
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/russia-backs-down-abandoning-gas-172559337.html

Trouble in gas transit paradise? Looks like the Turks might start playing hardball.
No, just a kind of charity for beggars ;)

Uncle Wally
27-06-2015, 13:49
No, just a kind of charity for beggars ;)



I guess he hasn't heard about the second pipeline to Germany yet.

FatAndy
27-06-2015, 13:51
I guess he hasn't heard about the second pipeline to Germany yet.
Maybe. Insha alla.

Russian Lad
27-06-2015, 13:54
I don't understand. I have been told by all Russian tv channels and by many Russian high-standing officials (and by many posters here as well) that there is a bloody Fascist Junta in Kyev. I was waking up in cold sweat in the middle of the night shouting "Death to the Ukrainian nazi who crucify little children and rape Russian-speaking babushkas!". Now we are going to transit gas through the enemy territory and pay them handsomely for this? Or have they all been blantantly lying to me in cold blood about the Junta in Kyev??? If they have lied about this, what else have they lied about??? :D If I was a Russian who wants to think logically and consistently I would be asking myself all these questions now.
It all looks and sounds very desperate.

FatAndy
27-06-2015, 13:58
I don't understand.
It happens sometimes. Don't worry. Your understanding, not-understanding or mis-understanding means nothing. :)


I don't understand. I have been told by all Russian tv channels and by many high-standing officials that there is a Fascist Junta in Kyev.
Not only Fascist, but also Maidown and Banderlog one. Correct.


Now we are going to transit gas through the enemy territory? :D
Through the temporarily occupied one. ;)


It all looks and sounds very desperate.
;)

Russian Lad
27-06-2015, 14:01
Well, Andy, what you are saying doesn't make any sense, don't you see it?:evilgrin::7525::D

FatAndy
27-06-2015, 14:07
Well, Andy, what you are saying doesn't make any sense
For you - maybe, but I don't care - it's only your issues, comrade ;)


I was waking up in cold sweat in the middle of the night shouting "Death to the Ukrainian nazi who crucify little children and rape Russian-speaking babushkas!".
:jawdrop:
You seem to be too emotional. My condolences. Novopassit helps ;)

Russian Lad
27-06-2015, 14:40
snap-snap-snap :evilgrin::D Andy, the refrigerator is beginning to demand a closer attention to its needs, the tv-set will not have a chance soon. You have to understand this - и рыбку съесть, и на ёлку влезть не получится. It is an epic battle...: https://news.mail.ru/economics/22486768/?frommail=1
I expect this relatively soon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch3ZGeaHlw4

fenrir
27-06-2015, 16:44
I guess he hasn't heard about the second pipeline to Germany yet.

It is another sign that the Turkey connection isn't all that it has been cracked up to be. It is also a sign that the pivot to China isn't as monolithic as some here have hinted. I told you Russia needs European customers and the prices they can pay as China can never replace all that.

TolkoRaz
27-06-2015, 21:00
It is another sign that the Turkey connection isn't all that it has been cracked up to be. It is also a sign that the pivot to China isn't as monolithic as some here have hinted. I told you Russia needs European customers and the prices they can pay as China can never replace all that.

Western (& Eastern) Europe needs the RF too - that is the dilemma for the West Europeans when being bullied by the US of A!

fenrir
27-06-2015, 21:17
Western (& Eastern) Europe needs the RF too - that is the dilemma for the West Europeans when being bullied by the US of A!

That's what makes the current situation more complicated: the EU and Russia need each other to some degrees.

rumple_stilskin
27-06-2015, 22:42
I wouldn't really describe it all as a backdown by Russia.

You have all these third parties trying to blackmail Russia with unreasonable terms, deciding they have Russia over a barrel and they would dictate the terms.

First, you had Brussels making unreasonable demands on the pipeline that was supposed to go through Bulgaria and Russia simply walked away.
Also you had Ukraine doing the same type of thing, Ukraine needed to understand they can end up with nothing, and consider that.
If there is a problem with Turkey, it would just be the same thing.

The solution is for Russia is to have enough pipe capacity, so the pipes are only running at 70% capacity. that way if one transit country starts to become unreasonable they can simply cut that country off and they receive nothing. It seems gazprom know all this now as evidenced by their talk of nordstream2.

So now, if Russia is talking to Ukraine they do understand one possible outcome of the negotiations is that they receive no transit fees at all.

Secondly, I remember the UK not long ago almost run out of gas as the transmission pipes to the UK developed some fault. So best to have extra capacity.
http://news.sky.com/story/1095134/gas-uk-was-six-hours-from-running-out

fenrir
27-06-2015, 22:45
I wouldn't really describe it all as a backdown by Russia.

You have all these third parties trying to blackmail Russia with unreasonable terms, deciding they have Russia over a barrel and they would dictate the terms.

First, you had Brussels making unreasonable demands on the pipeline that was supposed to go through Bulgaria and Russia simply walked away.
Also you had Ukraine doing the same type of thing, Ukraine needed to understand they can end up with nothing, and consider that.
If there is a problem with Turkey, it would just be the same thing.

The solution is for Russia is to have enough pipe capacity, so the pipes are only running at 70% capacity. that way if one transit country starts to become unreasonable they can simply cut that country off and they receive nothing. It seems gazprom know all this now as evidenced by their talk of nordstream2.

So now, if Russia is talking to Ukraine they do understand one possible outcome of the negotiations is that they receive no transit fees at all.

Secondly, I remember the UK not long ago almost run out of gas as the transmission pipes to the UK developed some fault. So best to have extra capacity.
http://news.sky.com/story/1095134/gas-uk-was-six-hours-from-running-out

Nice verbal gymnastics and it even makes some sense for a change but it is at odds with what the Kremlin, Gazprom and some posters on this site were saying only a short while ago.

Uncle Wally
27-06-2015, 22:56
It is another sign that the Turkey connection isn't all that it has been cracked up to be. It is also a sign that the pivot to China isn't as monolithic as some here have hinted. I told you Russia needs European customers and the prices they can pay as China can never replace all that.


It has to do with Germany and securing a bigger supply. I don't think Germany cares about Turkey. Shell and BP have been making deals with Russia too sanctions or no sanctions, all this news and propaganda is for fools like you while companies quietly still make deals. Now Russia can add China to the mix. Weather you like it or not Russia is a very powerful country and doesn't need to kiss anyone's ass unlike Estonia.

Russian Lad
27-06-2015, 23:37
Weather

Let's wetha the wetha togetha.:cheerleader: A powerful country with 2/3 of the population saving money on food, as the recent poll has shown. Something is wrong with that piccha.

fenrir
28-06-2015, 09:23
It has to do with Germany and securing a bigger supply. I don't think Germany cares about Turkey. Shell and BP have been making deals with Russia too sanctions or no sanctions, all this news and propaganda is for fools like you while companies quietly still make deals. Now Russia can add China to the mix. Weather you like it or not Russia is a very powerful country and doesn't need to kiss anyone's ass unlike Estonia.

Ha, ha. All that bravado is out the window. Now comes the 'explanation' stage for all the changes. Nice try but we are not the typical Russian zombie that believes everything they are told even if those things are contradictory. We remember what was said before and will keep calling you on it.

Btw, Russia has been kissing Chinese ass so hard for the last year that even the Chinese are embarrassed about it.

Uncle Wally
28-06-2015, 10:02
Ha, ha. All that bravado is out the window. Now comes the 'explanation' stage for all the changes. Nice try but we are not the typical Russian zombie that believes everything they are told even if those things are contradictory. We remember what was said before and will keep calling you on it.

Btw, Russia has been kissing Chinese ass so hard for the last year that even the Chinese are embarrassed about it.



Ok Mr American zombie.

Judge
28-06-2015, 12:39
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/russia-backs-down-abandoning-gas-172559337.html

Trouble in gas transit paradise? Looks like the Turks might start playing hardball.

It's part of the gas war games, It does sound like backtracking by the Russians, Putin says one thing,Miller says another,I think even Putin said awhile back that the EU should start building their own pipes to bypass Ukraine, it was an ambitious plan by the Russian to get all in place by 2020,some said it's a bluff,but who can really tell when Putin is bluffing,let's see in 5 years time.

Judge
28-06-2015, 12:51
Btw, Russia has been kissing Chinese ass so hard for the last year that even the Chinese are embarrassed about it.

It's a rich arse to kiss,:D nearly all countries are sucking up to the Chinese,it just goes to show there is a shift in power on the world stage..

Nobbynumbnuts
28-06-2015, 13:29
It's a rich arse to kiss,:D nearly all countries are sucking up to the Chinese,it just goes to show there is a shift in power on the world stage..

This is true but there's more, China is destined to become the largest economic power the world has ever seen. They have already joined the club of the largest economies in the world and will probably overtake the US sometime in the middle of this century to become no.1. You have to ask yourself what's Russia's future? This is important because it will go some way to determining their relationship with China (as it has with the US)
Russia is suffering negative growth through low oil price and the effects of sanctions, there is no end in sight for either. If the current situation continues then Russia will fall further and further behind it's competitors. An even more dominant China on it's doorstep will cause tension for Russia in the long term..

Russian Lad
28-06-2015, 14:12
An even more dominant China on it's doorstep will cause tension for Russia in the long term..

In the long-term?:) How about as we speak?:) The smarter Russians are hysterical already over the land lease to China for (sit tight) 5 (five) dollars per hectar of land in Zabaykalye (a huge chunk, 115 thousand hectars, for 50 years). As I understand, the contract has been signed already.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2RwOuptafs
Hope some of you speak Russian.:)

Nobbynumbnuts
28-06-2015, 14:39
In the long-term?:) How about as we speak?:) The smarter Russians are hysterical already over the land lease to China for (sit tight) 5 (five) dollars per hectar of land in Zabaykalye (a huge chunk, 115 thousand hectars, for 50 years). As I understand, the contract has been signed already.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2RwOuptafs
Hope some of you speak Russian.:)

Yes, the Chinese are the masters of 'sell cheap and stack it high' for this they need very cheap resources.

Can remember working in Vlad and i bought some coat hangers at the local market. They were nice ones, varnished wood with metal hooks and cost the ridiculously low price of 10 rubles each. Chinese made, i was told they buy the wood in Russia, import to China for manufacture then export back to Russia to sell. At each process there is a agent who takes his % profit and yet the final selling price is still extremely affordable!

All this and the Chinese are now taking the next step, moving up the value chain. They're beginning to create their own brands..

JPS
28-06-2015, 17:40
All this and the Chinese are now taking the next step, moving up the value chain


over the land lease to China for (sit tight) 5 (five) dollars per hectar of land in Zabaykalye (a huge chunk, 115 thousand hectars, for 50 years)

And are using resources from the poorer countries to make those products. Africa, Asia, Russia.

I'm sure our "truthseeker" will think of it as "assistance" rather than taking them advantage of. Welcome to capitalism.

Judge
28-06-2015, 21:41
This is true but there's more, China is destined to become the largest economic power the world has ever seen. They have already joined the club of the largest economies in the world and will probably overtake the US sometime in the middle of this century to become no.1. You have to ask yourself what's Russia's future? This is important because it will go some way to determining their relationship with China (as it has with the US)
Russia is suffering negative growth through low oil price and the effects of sanctions, there is no end in sight for either. If the current situation continues then Russia will fall further and further behind it's competitors. An even more dominant China on it's doorstep will cause tension for Russia in the long term..

Russia is sitting next door to the up and coming number 1 super economy and the main thing is, Russia's got everything the Chinese need,look at it this way, it's better to have the goods than to have nothing.
What's Russia's future?
It's to be a world player on the main stage, in what, in everything, you just have to look at Russia's history to know this (from the Great Game to wars with France and the Germans ) ,with the collapse of the USSR, Russia was in no man's land for a few years,it only took a few years for her to back on her feet...It's in the DNA of Russia, the same for the Germans and the Brits, to have a seat at the top table.

Negative growth, this won't go on for long, like Sergey Ivanov said the other day, high oil prices is a hindrance for Russia,
http://rt.com/business/268777-ivanov-oil-russia-sanctions/
The Russian leaders need to take note and use this opportunity to make reforms, they did plenty of reforms in the past that work well even today, they need to implement more.

Uncle Wally
28-06-2015, 23:03
And are using resources from the poorer countries to make those products. Africa, Asia, Russia.

I'm sure our "truthseeker" will think of it as "assistance" rather than taking them advantage of. Welcome to capitalism.


Is this prime farm land we're talking about? Does it need to be developed or is all plowed and ready to plant? Will the products produced on this land be taxed by Russia, will this development employ Russians? We know your normal spiel, Russia bad, Russians stupid, Russian government screwing everyone even themselves.

Nobbynumbnuts
28-06-2015, 23:33
Russia is sitting next door to the up and coming number 1 super economy and the main thing is, Russia's got everything the Chinese need,look at it this way, it's better to have the goods than to have nothing.
What's Russia's future?
It's to be a world player on the main stage, in what, in everything, you just have to look at Russia's history to know this (from the Great Game to wars with France and the Germans ) ,with the collapse of the USSR, Russia was in no man's land for a few years,it only took a few years for her to back on her feet...It's in the DNA of Russia, the same for the Germans and the Brits, to have a seat at the top table.

Negative growth, this won't go on for long, like Sergey Ivanov said the other day, high oil prices is a hindrance for Russia,
http://rt.com/business/268777-ivanov-oil-russia-sanctions/
The Russian leaders need to take note and use this opportunity to make reforms, they did plenty of reforms in the past that work well even today, they need to implement more.

Judge, if you look at history as you suggest you'll see that Russia was always backward. Up to Peter the Great who tried to change this by importing know-how and customs from 'Europe' to bring the country into the present. One of the main reasons for this is because the country is remote. Not on the way to anywhere else. Lack of trade routes that bring people and ideas.

Russia indeed has many things China needs but unfortunately so do many others. The Chinese will not rely on one supplier for anything, who would? Not only does this ensure a continuous supply no matter what the conditions, it enables the Chinese to play one supplier off with another, not least for prices.

Russia's future is tied up in the oil price. Until the government diversifies the economy this will always be the case. Sberbank's own report which i posted a few weeks ago, states that they see no increase in the price in the foreseeable future. They see no optimism for growth either.

To be a main player 'in everything' you need to be producing 'everything' and be able to export it. What does Russia produce? (ex oil and gas) What are the future growth prospects for those products?

The government has been talking about diversifying the economy for as long as i can remember. To help do this Russia need to attract foreign investment. That just ain't happening for obvious reasons.

Negative growth won't last for long? Maybe your right-maybe not. No one knows. Uncertainty doesn't instill confidence in investors, international or domestic. Maybe we'll get lucky is not a 'plan'

My point is that if Russia falls further behind (lower growth over a longer period) with the present government, foreign policy will get more defensive.

Russian Lad
29-06-2015, 00:29
It's in the DNA of Russia, the same for the Germans and the Brits, to have a seat at the top table.

Again, Judge, I cannot understand why the citizens of my top table sitting, powerful nation have to save on food, 2/3 of the Russians. And 73% of Russians don't have any savings. All what you are saying sounds like sweet dreams (in the best case) or deliberate lies (in the worst case). I don't know why you are doing it. Kindly tell us.

Judge
29-06-2015, 02:48
Judge, if you look at history as you suggest you'll see that Russia was always backward. Up to Peter the Great who tried to change this by importing know-how and customs from 'Europe' to bring the country into the present. One of the main reasons for this is because the country is remote. Not on the way to anywhere else. Lack of trade routes that bring people and ideas.

Yes Nobby, all true, you forgot to mention, Russia is still country full of clueless peasants.


Russia indeed has many things China needs but unfortunately so do many others. The Chinese will not rely on one supplier for anything, who would? Not only does this ensure a continuous supply no matter what the conditions, it enables the Chinese to play one supplier off with another, not least for prices.

China's demand is too big for just one country , but yes, it's in their interest to have other suppliers, same goes for Russia,they also have other end customers for their product.
The thing is, China is too big to rely on one country for oil and gas,say, tale a smaller country, like we see in Europe, where some are 100% reliant on Russia.



To be a main player 'in everything' you need to be producing 'everything' and be able to export it. What does Russia produce? (ex oil and gas) What are the future growth prospects for those products?


You sound like Obama, Russia is a country that doesn't make anything. :10600:






Negative growth won't last for long? Maybe your right-maybe not. No one knows. Uncertainty doesn't instill confidence in investors, international or domestic. Maybe we'll get lucky is not a 'plan'

Even the so called economists don't know, some say one thing, others another, will wait and see....of course being under sanctions doesn't help, but where some investors lose, others will take their place.
who's talking about getting lucky? ,maybe you mean, some here are waiting for oil prices to be over a $100 again....

Judge
29-06-2015, 03:26
Again, Judge, I cannot understand why the citizens of my top table sitting, powerful nation have to save on food, 2/3 of the Russians. And 73% of Russians don't have any savings. All what you are saying sounds like sweet dreams (in the best case) or deliberate lies (in the worst case). I don't know why you are doing it. Kindly tell us.

Don't believe in every survey you read,and don't forget there's always a margin of error.

What sounds like sweet dreams, that it's Russia's place to be at the top table when it comes to global affairs? maybe not to you, but to many Russians they like their country being strong on the world stage.

Russian Lad
29-06-2015, 08:27
Why shouldn't I believe such surveys? I am a Russian, I live in Russia, these surveys were taken by Russian companies supervised and sponsored, directly or indirectly, by the Russian government, not by a Western NGO. Besides, what I see and hear around me seems to be even much worse. Maybe you should travel outside of Moscow more often if your disbelief is genuine? I remember traveling like 200 km away from Moscow by car and the places there look like WW-II has never ended. I suspect they live there just how it looks.
As to your second claim, wishing to be strong or deceiving yourself you are strong is not the same as being strong. I am sure the North Koreans are also told daily about how strong they are and about how the rest of the world respects and even envies them. But is it really the case?
Again, why are you doing it???

Judge
29-06-2015, 09:02
Why shouldn't I believe such surveys? I am a Russian, I live in Russia, these surveys were taken by Russian companies supervised and sponsored, directly or indirectly, by the Russian government, not by a Western NGO. Besides, what I see and hear around me seems to be even much worse. Maybe you should travel outside of Moscow more often if your disbelief is genuine? I remember traveling like 200 km away from Moscow by car and the places there look like WW-II has never ended. I suspect they live there just how it looks.

We discussed savings more than once before,and it's irrelevant to your argument, survey, post links please. .

I live over a 150 km from Moscow and guess what, it isn't all that bad, due to bad weather over the weekend , the lake wasn't as busy as usual, but on a normal day, people at the weekend are seen camping, bbqing strolling in the forest, on work days people are ,shopping, working going around their everyday business..



As to your second claim, wishing to be strong or deceiving yourself you are strong is not the same as being strong. I am sure the North Koreans are also told daily about how strong they are and about how the rest of the world respects and even envies them. But is it really the case?

Is North Korea at the table discussing Syria and the Iran Nuclear issue, is the Greek leader busy rushing to NK,looking for a deal..



Again, why are you doing it???


Doing what, telling you the truth? Maybe I best stop replying to you cos last time we chatted you got all worked up and left for a few weeks, I like reading you, I don't wanna see you leave again.:coffee:

Russian Lad
29-06-2015, 09:05
survey, post links please. .

I have posted them already. Here you go again, if you want:
http://www.economics-prorok.com/2015/06/blog-post_52.html
http://www.politforums.net/internal/1435401908.html
http://nnm.me/blogs/west_yura/v-rossii-stalo-bolshe-bednyh-dve-treti-rossiyan-ekonomyat-na-ede/
http://mymgn.info/12068-dve-treti-rossiyan-teper-ekonomyat-na-produktah.html
http://vetonet.ru/novosti/obschestvo/dve-treti-rossijan-stali-yekonomit-na-produktah.html
http://www.ng.ru/economics/2014-02-07/4_crisis.html

Can add one thousand more.


I live over a 150 km from Moscow

Travel to the Tverskaya oblast then.:) It is just 100 more km to go. Knowing that 80%+ of the Russian Federation money evolves around Moscow and the nearby areas, I would expect nothing else than luxurious mansions painted in real gold, diamond-incrusted porches and neat roads sparkling with emeralds in your area.


Is North Korea at the table discussing Syria and the Iran Nuclear issue, is the Greek leader busy rushing to NK,looking for a deal..

The NK has a certain (important) role in its own region, it doesn't make it rich, important, respected or prosperous nation on the global scale.


cos last time we chatted you got all worked up and left for a few weeks

You were not the only reason. Another one was certain posters are allowed to use profanity with impunity (just because they happen to be on your and Andy's side) and are not banned for that. For instance, I have already been called a motherf'cker by Wally since I returned, the posts were quietly deleted by a mod, no one got hurt, life goes on as usual.

Judge
29-06-2015, 09:30
I have posted them already. Here you go again, if you want:
http://www.economics-prorok.com/2015/06/blog-post_52.html
http://www.politforums.net/internal/1435401908.html
http://nnm.me/blogs/west_yura/v-rossii-stalo-bolshe-bednyh-dve-treti-rossiyan-ekonomyat-na-ede/
http://mymgn.info/12068-dve-treti-rossiyan-teper-ekonomyat-na-produktah.html
http://vetonet.ru/novosti/obschestvo/dve-treti-rossijan-stali-yekonomit-na-produktah.html
http://www.ng.ru/economics/2014-02-07/4_crisis.html

Can add one thousand more.





Travel to the Tverskaya oblast then.:) It is just 100 more km to go.
Never had an interest to visit, but what will I find, Russian villages, like the ones I pass through many times.I ain't saying it's utopia here,that's not what this discussion started out about,Russia being back on the world stage, you like me and many others around the world, would prefer our countries to spend more time looking and sorting out problems closer to home..

All links reporting one survey, show me link who carried out the survey,you can post survey after survey, still doesn't mean it's accurate.





The NK has a certain (important) role in its own region, it doesn't make it rich, important, respected or prosperous nation on the global scale.

OK, Russia is the same as NK, just as rich and have the same importance on a global scale, for sure you win that argument.



You were not the only reason. Another one was certain posters are allowed to use profanity with impunity (just because they happen to be on your and Andy's side) and are not banned for that. For instance, I have already been called a motherf'cker by Wally since I returned, the posts were quietly deleted by a mod, no one got hurt, life goes on as usual.


You shouldn't then antagonize people, they lose their cool, like you said, no one hurt.

Russian Lad
29-06-2015, 09:38
OK, Russia is the same as NK, just as rich and have the same importance on a global scale, for sure you win that argument.

I am not saying they are exactly the same, but Russia has made a humongous leap in this direction during the last two years. Moreover, some of the leading Kremlin propagandists like Prokhanov actually admire (!!!) the North Korea and obviously want to emulate it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbAWpPvL5rs


You shouldn't then antagonize people, they lose their cool, like you said, no one hurt.

That's not what it says in your forum rules. Just delete them then or enter these provisions into them, for the benefit of new posters and the existing ones alike.

Nobbynumbnuts
29-06-2015, 21:54
Yes Nobby, all true, you forgot to mention, Russia is still country full of clueless peasants.

Not so, Russians are pretty well educated these days, a legacy of the communist era. But Russia still suffers from it's remoteness and isolationist mentality..

China's demand is too big for just one country , but yes, it's in their interest to have other suppliers, same goes for Russia,they also have other end customers for their product.
The thing is, China is too big to rely on one country for oil and gas,say, tale a smaller country, like we see in Europe, where some are 100% reliant on Russia.



You sound like Obama, Russia is a country that doesn't make anything. :10600:

Then name me some things that Russia exports



Even the so called economists don't know, some say one thing, others another, will wait and see....of course being under sanctions doesn't help, but where some investors lose, others will take their place.
who's talking about getting lucky? ,maybe you mean, some here are waiting for oil prices to be over a $100 again....

The problem with 100$ oil for Russia is that all this talk of diversification just goes back onto the back burner. Governments are there to push these issue through. have a plan and carry them out!

Judge
29-06-2015, 22:09
The problem with of 100$ oil for Russia is that all this talk of diversification just goes back onto the back burner. Governments are there to push these issue through. have a plan and carry them out!

Exactly,so let's have the prices this low for a year or two, it's what Ivanov said, high prices are an hindrance, this is coming from one of the top guys close to Putin,it's not like they don't know this, Was reading the other day, Russia won't be raising taxes for the next 4 years, so companies can plan ahead and new businesses won't be inspected for the first three years, now you and I know, there shouldn't be a threat at all from the inspectors and Putin shouldn't even have to say this about inspections .

With the sanctions in place and Russia's ban on some western food, first this pushed Russia closer to Asian countries, Gazprom and the Chinese were farting about for years on gas deals, now all of a sudden things got signed, and for food, now Russian leaders are all talking about local produce goods,you know whats worth buying how, farm food goods, before they were on the expensive side, small remote places, now many have popped up and prices are very resonable , and the quality can't even be compared to supermarket food.

Nobbynumbnuts
29-06-2015, 22:22
....that it's Russia's place to be at the top table when it comes to global affairs? maybe not to you, but to many Russians they like their country being strong on the world stage.

Well, Russia has lost one place at the top table. The G8 is now the G7, Russia was thrown out......

An important point you make about Russians wanting to be a powerful country.
Most people in western countries are more interested in the economy, jobs, health and pensions etc etc. Most would like to see the military scaled back to make savings, there's a lot of support for scrapping Trident in the UK for example. Of course, it's Russian's prerogative what they want but where's the dialog on these issues? Why are Russians so consumed with foreign policy at the expense of domestic policy, even in times of hardship? I can only put it down to an indifference to politics (as long as we have a strong leader) and backward thinking.
Russia needs a strong political opposition to keep the government accountable and keep other important issues (economy, jobs, health, pensions etc etc) front and center...

Nobbynumbnuts
29-06-2015, 22:31
Exactly,so let's have the prices this low for a year or two, it's what Ivanov said, high prices are an hindrance, this is coming from one of the top guys close to Putin,it's not like they don't know this, Was reading the other day, Russia won't be raising taxes for the next 4 years, so companies can plan ahead and new businesses won't be inspected for the first three years, now you and I know, there shouldn't be a threat at all from the inspectors and Putin shouldn't even have to say this about inspections .

With the sanctions in place and Russia's ban on some western food, first this pushed Russia closer to Asian countries, Gazprom and the Chinese were farting about for years on gas deals, now all of a sudden things got signed, and for food, now Russian leaders are all talking about local produce goods,you know whats worth buying how, farm food goods, before they were on the expensive side, small remote places, now many have popped up and prices are very resonable , and the quality can't even be compared to supermarket food.

Judge, what are you talking about? It's all BS. Why does the government wait until oil is at 60$ and the country is suffering to start talking again about diversification?? How much can they do when they are being forced to cut back?? The government are in charge, they should be pushing through policies that will diversify the Russian economy away from complete reliance on oil and gas no matter what the oil price is. It's called forward planning. Why would you wish prolonged hardship on your country through low oil prices to get something done?? Russian logic!!

Judge
29-06-2015, 22:59
Judge, what are you talking about? It's all BS. Why does the government wait until oil is at 60$ and the country is suffering to start talking again about diversification?? How much can they do when they are being forced to cut back?? The government are in charge, they should be pushing through policies that will diversify the Russian economy away from complete reliance on oil and gas no matter what the oil price is. It's called forward planning. Why would you wish prolonged hardship on your country through low oil prices to get something done?? Russian logic!!

Which part is BS?
Yes the government is in charge and is dealing with the recent situation, from the attack on the ruble to low oil prices.

They have been enjoying the golden eggs for years now, sometimes a mini crises is needed to make changes
There's always talk about diversifying the economy,the problem is, it's usually all talk,but it's not all about oil and gas with Russia, they do sell other stuff and I wager(an imaginary one ) that in the past years oil and gas contribution to the coffers has decreased, but they get too comfortable when oil prices are high .
We could look at different sectors and see the improvement that's been done,money which came from oil and gas was spent and invested, like Medvedev said, Russia's been dependant on oil for the last 40 years or so, it can't be done overnight. ..

Nobbynumbnuts
29-06-2015, 23:18
Which part is BS?
Yes the government is in charge and is dealing with the recent situation, from the attack on the ruble to low oil prices.

They have been enjoying the golden eggs for years now, sometimes a mini crises is needed to make changes
There's always talk about diversifying the economy,the problem is, it's usually all talk,but it's not all about oil and gas with Russia, they do sell other stuff and I wager(an imaginary one ) that in the past years oil and gas contribution to the coffers has decreased, but they get too comfortable when oil prices are high .
We could look at different sectors and see the improvement that's been done,money which came from oil and gas was spent and invested, like Medvedev said, Russia's been dependant on oil for the last 40 years or so, it can't be done overnight. ..

Knee jerk reactions. If the economy was more diverse, then the ruble wouldn't have fallen as far and the oil price wouldn't be as significant.
If instead of talking about developing other areas of the economy for years they had actually got on and done something about it when they had the money to do so, Russia would now be in a much better place to weather the current situation.

You're agreeing with me, it's all talk.
Problems need solving, they need to do something about it. I think they're lost and don't know how to resolve the situation...
Who get's too comfortable when the oil price is high, the government?? Read my point about an effective opposition to give them a kick up their too comfortable asses!

Can't be done overnight? They've been talking about it for 15 years that i know! They're lost, they don't know what to do. Russia needs people who do...

Judge
29-06-2015, 23:49
Knee jerk reactions. If the economy was more diverse, then the ruble wouldn't have fallen as far and the oil price wouldn't be as significant.

Let's not forget the ruble was attacked by speculators, it wasn't mainly about the drop in oil prices.

If instead of talking about developing other areas of the economy for years they had actually got on and done something about it when they had the money to do so, Russia would now be in a much better place to weather the current situation.
The funny thing is, they are weathering the so called storm rather well



Who get's too comfortable when the oil price is high, the government?? Read my point about an effective opposition to give them a kick up their too comfortable asses!
Maybe it's more to do with the oil companies being government controlled,they know it's always there,that's another discussion, can the Russian oil and gas industry be 100% private,I think it won't ever be, well, not with the current leaders, is this good or bad?


Can't be done overnight? They've been talking about it for 15 years that i know! They're lost, they don't know what to do. Russia needs people who do...

More western bankers are needed,let's invite some Harvard guys to show Russia the way,lol that's funny, maybe invite The same bankers who are now f*u king the EU.:11629:
The west always knows what's best for Russia,:ok:

And changes have been made, Russia weathered the 2008 storm well, and the recent one in Dec,passed by, now, depends who you ask, it's not as bad as many might make out.

Nobbynumbnuts
30-06-2015, 00:15
Let's not forget the ruble was attacked by speculators, it wasn't mainly about the drop in oil prices.

The funny thing is, they are weathering the so called storm rather well


Maybe it's more to do with the oil companies being government controlled,they know it's always there,that's another discussion, can the Russian oil and gas industry be 100% private,I think it won't ever be, well, not with the current leaders, is this good or bad?

.

And changes have been made, Russia weathered the 2008 storm well, and the recent one in Dec,passed by, now, depends who you ask, it's not as bad as many might make out.



Judge, you don't understand the markets. If they feel something is weak, they'll attack it. If it's strong they won't succeed. Oil price + economy were weak.
Every thing quoted on the markets is subject to the same forces. The pound was forced out of the EU exchange rate mechanism in '93 the same way. And the market was right then too. The pound went in at too high a level which was unsustainable.

Rather well?? Then they don't need to make any alterations at all then??

For me it's not about private or public if we're talking about diversification. The point is, tax revenues increase when oil prices are high. This gives the balance sheet a boost. Money the authorities could be put to work incentivizing other parts of the economy.

Look, there are simple things the government could do to increase business activity. A main one is to reduce red tape and make it easier for companies to start up and operate. Get serious about attracting foreign investors and expertise. Foreigner friendly attitudes, Visa changes, tax incentives, setting up tax free zones, a serious assault on corruption etc etc.
Doesn't take 15 years to put these into practice...

I never said the 'west' was perfect but because it isn't is that an excuse for Russia to fail? Why does Russia need western bankers? It doesn't if it doesn't want them. Banking can be done in Russia by Russians.

Judge, you sound like a Russian..............low expectations. People get the governments they deserve...

Judge
30-06-2015, 00:24
Well, Russia has lost one place at the top table. The G8 is now the G7, Russia was thrown out......
Russia is now at the BRICS table,one that will have larger GDP than the G7in a few years


An important point you make about Russians wanting to be a powerful country.
Most people in western countries are more interested in the economy, jobs, health and pensions etc etc.

Let's not forget,the Russian military industry is a massive money maker for the country, jobs,education ,exports .


Most would like to see the military scaled back to make savings, there's a lot of support for scrapping Trident in the UK for example. Of course, it's Russian's prerogative what they want but where's the dialog on these issues? Why are Russians so consumed with foreign policy at the expense of domestic policy, even in times of hardship? I can only put it down to an indifference to politics (as long as we have a strong leader) and backward thinking.

Maybe in some years, Russians will change, a generation or 4,and won't be too concerned on having a foreign policy, like you say with the UK, many there want the UK to scale back,it wasn't always like that in the UK, times have changed, might one day be the same for Russia, but I won't be around to see that day. ...



Russia needs a strong political opposition to keep the government accountable and keep other important issues (economy, jobs, health, pensions etc etc) front and center...
An opposition, that's foreign to many here, I don't know, a 2 party race,both with big corporations supporting them,who knows if that will work here, what Russians have only known is the one strong leader many look up to.
You mention economy ,jobs,health and pensions, all these have vastly improved under Putin, that's why he's still highly popular with the narod .

Nobbynumbnuts
30-06-2015, 00:45
Russia is now at the BRICS table,one that will have larger GDP than the G7in a few years



Let's not forget,the Russian military industry is a massive money maker for the country, jobs,education ,exports .


Maybe in some years, Russians will change, a generation or 4,and won't be too concerned on having a foreign policy, like you say with the UK, many there want the UK to scale back,it wasn't always like that in the UK, times have changed, might one day be the same for Russia, but I won't be around to see that day. ...



An opposition, that's foreign to many here, I don't know, a 2 party race,both with big corporations supporting them,who knows if that will work here, what Russians have only known is the one strong leader many look up to.
You mention economy ,jobs,health and pensions, all these have vastly improved under Putin, that's why he's still highly popular with the narod .

It's great that Russia is part of the BRICS but that's not a substitute for the G7, they are not making the major decisions now! Would be far better to be on both.

Yes, military hardware is a good earner for Russia, especially when it's waging war. But that alone is not the answer...

Maybe in some years? It's up to the government to lead and foster change, even in people's mindsets.
It wasn't like that in the UK in the past? You're right, attitudes in the UK have changed drastically in the last 30-40 years. The place is unrecognizable in many ways. Much down to government promoting unpopular changes at the time. Equal opportunities, equal pay, racial discrimination legislation etc etc etc etc. Does Putin show any leadership on these issues in Russia? No, he plays on current fears and actually reinforces them.

A two party system supported by corporations? What they have now is better?

penka
30-06-2015, 00:46
Nobby, you are trying to apply a Western rationale to Russia, which is a mistake.
The concept of Western democracy cannot fly high in Russia, for better or worse. Some attempts to introduce it during Eltzin turned out to be chaos de facto. Russians comprehend and respect a strong leader, since that is something that prevents this chaos, making it somewhat organised:)

Nobbynumbnuts
30-06-2015, 01:01
Nobby, you are trying to apply a Western rationale to Russia, which is a mistake.
The concept of Western democracy cannot fly high in Russia, for better or worse. Some attempts to introduce it during Eltzin turned out to be chaos de facto. Russians comprehend and respect a strong leader, since that is something that prevents this chaos, making it somewhat organised:)

I understand but there are examples of countries in the world with very strong leaders with questionable democratic credentials, Singapore is one that springs to mind. Lee Kuang Yew was pretty much a dictator for 30 odd years but achieved remarkable things in his time. Russia doesn't have to fail because it doesn't have democracy but where is change coming from?

penka
30-06-2015, 01:14
I understand but there are examples of countries in the world with very strong leaders with questionable democratic credentials, Singapore is one that springs to mind. Lee Kuang Yew was pretty much a dictator for 30 odd years but achieved remarkable things in his time. Russia doesn't have to fail because it doesn't have democracy but where is change coming from?

Look at the map of Russia and at Singapore:)
Their recently deceased leader was using quite draconian methods to exterminate corruption for quite a period of time, I recon.

Nobbynumbnuts
30-06-2015, 01:21
Look at the map of Russia and at Singapore:)
Their recently deceased leader was using quite draconian methods to exterminate corruption for quite a period of time, I recon.

Absolutely they are apples and oranges. But just making the point that dictatorship doesn't have to be bad for progress. A better example would be China. A huge country, still much smaller than Russia but a population vastly larger. Pretty draconian leadership but amazing strides in development in the last 30 years or so..

penka
30-06-2015, 01:28
Absolutely they are apples and oranges. But just making the point that dictatorship doesn't have to be bad for progress. A better example would be China. A huge country, still much smaller than Russia but a population vastly larger. Pretty draconian leadership but amazing strides in development in the last 30 years or so..

Mm.
Falling asleep here, sorry.

Uncle Wally
30-06-2015, 01:55
It's great that Russia is part of the BRICS but that's not a substitute for the G7, they are not making the major decisions now! Would be far better to be on both.

Yes, military hardware is a good earner for Russia, especially when it's waging war. But that alone is not the answer...

Maybe in some years? It's up to the government to lead and foster change, even in people's mindsets.
It wasn't like that in the UK in the past? You're right, attitudes in the UK have changed drastically in the last 30-40 years. The place is unrecognizable in many ways. Much down to government promoting unpopular changes at the time. Equal opportunities, equal pay, racial discrimination legislation etc etc etc etc. Does Putin show any leadership on these issues in Russia? No, he plays on current fears and actually reinforces them.

A two party system supported by corporations? What they have now is better?


Wow are delusional.


You describe what you are going through but somehow want to push this on Russia? The things you describe is what is happening to you with the help of your government. So deep down you understand what is really going on but the brainwashed part makes you think it's someone else (Russia) but all the time it's your TV, your News, your info feed to your Facebook because they watch you and know what you read, look at, down load, buy, .... "Your mind is totally control it has been stuffed into my mold and you will do as you are told until the rights that you are sold, I am the slime from your video, what me now oozing along on you living room floor. (Frank Zappa)


Your government plays on your fears and even tells you what fears to be fearful of. Too bad you never could learn anything from Frank Zappa because you could really be a Nobodynumbnuts in stead of a nimpcumputin.

Uncle Wally
30-06-2015, 02:03
Absolutely they are apples and oranges. But just making the point that dictatorship doesn't have to be bad for progress. A better example would be China. A huge country, still much smaller than Russia but a population vastly larger. Pretty draconian leadership but amazing strides in development in the last 30 years or so..



Wow and you want to complain about Stalin/ Lenin you sound like a f@#king socialist. Give me a good dictator and???? That's your democracy for you, turn you into a little suck ass communist, because it's all a lie a big fascist lie! " Work will set you free" that's what it said over the nazi concentration camps didn't it? And you believe it, that's the joke!

Russian Lad
30-06-2015, 06:04
Do you hate working, Wally, and enjoy only romping? :AngelPray: That's the final stage of communism, too. So, in your own way, you are a communist. Now I understand why you chose Russia to settle down. :nerd: