PDA

View Full Version : Greece's showdown with lenders



Pages : [1] 2

quincy
05-06-2015, 19:25
Merkel and Hollande have spoken with Tsipras several times over the last week to try and resolve the standoff. The conversations “naturally are constructive,” Steffen Seibert, Merkel’s chief spokesman, told reporters in Berlin. He declined to comment on the substance of Thursday’s call.
Tsipras also spoke Friday by phone with Russian President Vladimir Putin to discuss Greece’s participation in an investment bank for BRIC countries, a Greek official said.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-05/tsipras-raises-stakes-in-greek-showdown-as-imf-payment-deferred

FatAndy
05-06-2015, 19:43
They suffocate one another, so normal civilised life goes on...:rasta:

Nobbynumbnuts
05-06-2015, 19:47
Merkel and Hollande have spoken with Tsipras several times over the last week to try and resolve the standoff. The conversations “naturally are constructive,” Steffen Seibert, Merkel’s chief spokesman, told reporters in Berlin. He declined to comment on the substance of Thursday’s call.
Tsipras also spoke Friday by phone with Russian President Vladimir Putin to discuss Greece’s participation in an investment bank for BRIC countries, a Greek official said.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-05/tsipras-raises-stakes-in-greek-showdown-as-imf-payment-deferred

Greeks are playing off the EU and Russia. June 30th is deadline for the debt repayment stand off to be resolved. My guess, Greece won't default and will do a deal with the EU at the 11th hour..

Judge
11-06-2015, 20:02
The clock is ticking,

Greece on the brink,

The IMF’s withdrawal has come as a rather nasty shock to Greece, where optimism had been building that a compromise might be close.

Media reports are calling the move a “megaton bomb” dropped on Athens by its creditors.

And Helena Smith reports that you can already hear the cries of demonstrators denouncing the “new memorandum” (bailout agreement) wafting through central Athens, as tonight’s protests get underway.

Uncle Wally
11-06-2015, 20:27
Greeks are playing off the EU and Russia. June 30th is deadline for the debt repayment stand off to be resolved. My guess, Greece won't default and will do a deal with the EU at the 11th hour..



No the Greeks are tired of a policy that doesn't work and only allows rich people to steal their wealth. Why should the old and poor have to suffer more while the rich just get cheap deals on public services like electric, gas, water.... and then their only idea is to raise prices. Unlike water money does not "trickle down" but is more like a feather and floats on the wind of spending.

Judge
13-06-2015, 13:59
And the scam goes on,

Shares on European stock markets have fallen amid reports that senior EU officials have discussed a possible Greek default for the first time.

It's been going on like this for ages now, breakdown in talks, stock goss down, next week news, a deal soon to be made, stock goes up...

Uncle Wally
13-06-2015, 14:03
The IMF just said they don't care if Ukraine can pay their debt they're going to give them more money.

TolkoRaz
13-06-2015, 14:39
The IMF just said they don't care if Ukraine can pay their debt they're going to give them more money.

How very charitable!

Is it not tax payers' money?

If so, have they asked the taxpayers? :confused:

Uncle Wally
13-06-2015, 14:53
How very charitable!

Is it not tax payers' money?

If so, have they asked the taxpayers? :confused:



When did the have to ask the tax payers? If the did they should have ask 18 trillion dollars ago!

Did you know the CIA spends 1 billion dollars a year on training people to fight in Syria?

Judge
13-06-2015, 15:54
How very charitable!

Is it not tax payers' money?

If so, have they asked the taxpayers? :confused:

Nobby keeps reminding us ,it will be the tax payers who will lose out if the Greeks default, the tax payers should demand heads on plates if money is lost.


The IMF have one of their own in place in Ukraine, the American, who recently became Ukraine's finance minister. ..:shhhhhh:

Judge
13-06-2015, 15:57
Did you know the CIA spends 1 billion dollars a year on training people to fight in Syria?

In the name of deMockcracy.

Benedikt
13-06-2015, 19:26
Greeks are playing off the EU and Russia. June 30th is deadline for the debt repayment stand off to be resolved. My guess, Greece won't default and will do a deal with the EU at the 11th hour..



the greeks are pyaing for time. and should there be a -GREXIT- (Greek Exit from the EU) the worlds will not stiop. and the sun will still rise tomorrow.

Nobbynumbnuts
13-06-2015, 21:42
the greeks are pyaing for time. and should there be a -GREXIT- (Greek Exit from the EU) the worlds will not stiop. and the sun will still rise tomorrow.

A decision has to be reached by 30/06/15. If not and Greece doesn't receive another 7 billion in financial aid, it's then in default.

The world will not stop turning and the sun will keep rising everyday. Just as it did during every other crisis since the world began.

However, should Greece default it will be devastating for Greece and there will be a huge knock on effect in the rest of Europe...........luckily, i don't think it will come to that.

TolkoRaz
13-06-2015, 21:45
A decision has to be reached by 30/06/15. If not and Greece doesn't receive another 7 billion in financial aid, it's then in default.

The world will not stop turning and the sun will keep rising everyday. Just as it did during every other crisis since the world began.

However, should Greece default it will be devastating for Greece and there will be a huge knock on effect in the rest of Europe...........luckily, i don't think it will come to that.

I agree! :10310:

Nobbynumbnuts
13-06-2015, 21:49
And the scam goes on,
.

It's been going on like this for ages now, breakdown in talks, stock goss down, next week news, a deal soon to be made, stock goes up...


I take it you must mean that all the ministers involved in the talks are somehow all involved in a huge conspiracy to manipulate stock prices for their own gain?

You have a very fertile imagination, Judge. Not only would such a conspiracy be very risky for those involved there would be no guarantee of success.

Uncle Wally
13-06-2015, 22:34
:tgif:
I take it you must mean that all the ministers involved in the talks are somehow all involved in a huge conspiracy to manipulate stock prices for their own gain?





You have a very fertile imagination, Judge. Not only would such a conspiracy be very risky for those involved there would be no guarantee of success.



Oh yeah right! Like it hasn't been going on for years now? Everything about stocks, gold,oil or currency has been manipulated for at least 7 years now. You don't find it funny that some people ( the people with the most money) have been on the winning end all the time? Just by chance I guess right? Don't be a fool.

Judge
13-06-2015, 22:36
An old article, but worth a read,
German 'hypocrisy' over Greek military spending has critics up in arms


http://gu.com/p/37228?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Messages

Judge
15-06-2015, 19:24
As Greece edged closer to default after weekend talks with its creditors collapsed almost as soon as they began, leading shares hit a new three month low.

A little lower, then give us some good news for stocks to shoot up..

Maybe this could really be it, and the Greeks default, they missed a payment few weeks ago,said they will pay later, so really, they already defaulted. ..:drink:

Nobbynumbnuts
15-06-2015, 19:35
A little lower, then give us some good news for stocks to shoot up..

Maybe this could really be it, and the Greeks default, they missed a payment few weeks ago,said they will pay later, so really, they already defaulted. ..:drink:

As i mentioned before a large scale conspiracy to manipulate stock prices would be very risky for many reasons..

The Greeks didn't miss a repayment. They enacted a little used clause in the contract that allows them a further two weeks grace. ;)

rumple_stilskin
15-06-2015, 23:44
The best thing that can happen is that Greece simply walks away from the debt, pay them nothing.

This would put an end to all this reckless lending. If the bankers knew they might not be able to repay, then why did they lend the money in the first place?

The lending bankers did not know they might default? These bankers have brains the size of a planet, they must have, they pay themselves 10,000,000GBP per year.
About time the lending bankers were held accountable

quincy
16-06-2015, 00:42
The best thing that can happen is that Greece simply walks away from the debt, pay them nothing.

This would put an end to all this reckless lending. If the bankers knew they might not be able to repay, then why did they lend the money in the first place?

The lending bankers did not know they might default? These bankers have brains the size of a planet, they must have, they pay themselves 10,000,000GBP per year.
About time the lending bankers were held accountable

Reckless lending is right

The same loose lending that led to the 2008-9 crisis

Yet none of the mainstream media discuss the Banks' responsibilities

Nobbynumbnuts
16-06-2015, 00:46
The best thing that can happen is that Greece simply walks away from the debt, pay them nothing.

This would put an end to all this reckless lending. If the bankers knew they might not be able to repay, then why did they lend the money in the first place................

..so with all the pain that Greece is going through, why don't they just walk away then? :rolleyes:

Uncle Wally
16-06-2015, 02:25
The best thing that can happen is that Greece simply walks away from the debt, pay them nothing.

This would put an end to all this reckless lending. If the bankers knew they might not be able to repay, then why did they lend the money in the first place?

The lending bankers did not know they might default? These bankers have brains the size of a planet, they must have, they pay themselves 10,000,000GBP per year.
About time the lending bankers were held accountable



They did know very well they and others can't pay. They also understand money will be worthless and want to get their greedy fat hands on the best state assets. That's why they force countries to borrow more and more then say "well privatize this and that" and by doing so steal the cash cow and can just lay back and suck the big titties dry!

Judge
16-06-2015, 07:45
As i mentioned before a large scale conspiracy to manipulate stock prices would be very risky for many reasons..

The Greeks didn't miss a repayment. They enacted a little used clause in the contract that allows them a further two weeks grace. ;)

It's not like there are a few men in dark suits in a room called "conspiracy".
It's all very open, the rigged game continues. ...
Nice clause to have, can they keep postponing payment?

Nobbynumbnuts
16-06-2015, 12:28
It's not like there are a few men in dark suits in a room called "conspiracy".
It's all very open, the rigged game continues. ...
Nice clause to have, can they keep postponing payment?

Very risky involving many people (if you can get them all to agree in the first place) to break the law.

No they can't, 30th of June is deadline day.

Uncle Wally
16-06-2015, 13:26
Very risky involving many people (if you can get them all to agree in the first place) to break the law.

No they can't, 30th of June is deadline day.



"risky" who you trying kidd? When has any of them gone to prison?

Judge
16-06-2015, 14:01
Not long to go now, :fudd:

Greek shares fell for a third day after fears that it could leave the euro intensified and the French president warned there was "little time" to reach a deal on economic reforms.

Shares on the Athens stock exchange fell by 1.3% in early trade.

That was relatively benign compared with the two previous days' falls of 4.7% and 5.9%.

Ten-year bond yields also rose 20 basis points to 12.97%, as fears of a wider eurozone crisis loomed.

Greek bank stocks were hit hardest. The Greek FTSE bank index fell 4.5% on Tuesday, after falling 12% on Monday.

Elsewhere in Europe, the FTSE 100 in London fell 0.74% to 6660.65, while the Dax in Frankfurt lost 1.44% and the Cac 40 in Paris shed 1.32%.

Nobbynumbnuts
16-06-2015, 14:09
Not long to go now, :fudd:

Greek shares fell for a third day after fears that it could leave the euro intensified and the French president warned there was "little time" to reach a deal on economic reforms.

Shares on the Athens stock exchange fell by 1.3% in early trade.

That was relatively benign compared with the two previous days' falls of 4.7% and 5.9%.

Ten-year bond yields also rose 20 basis points to 12.97%, as fears of a wider eurozone crisis loomed.

Greek bank stocks were hit hardest. The Greek FTSE bank index fell 4.5% on Tuesday, after falling 12% on Monday.

Elsewhere in Europe, the FTSE 100 in London fell 0.74% to 6660.65, while the Dax in Frankfurt lost 1.44% and the Cac 40 in Paris shed 1.32%.

Yup, definitely warming up now as the reality should the Greeks exit, hits home.
I expect it to get a bit nasty, plenty of rhetoric, walkouts, ultimatums and demands. There's a lot at stake.

If you fancy a little punt and it goes to the last day, short Greek bank at the zero hour. Very risky but if they strike a deal (as i think they will) could be a big rebound! :10641:

Judge
27-06-2015, 07:38
Finally, after months of BS talks, this saga is about to get real,

Greek PM Alexis Tsipras calls referendum on bailout terms.


http://gu.com/p/4a6qp?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Messages

Nobbynumbnuts
27-06-2015, 13:17
Finally, after months of BS talks, this saga is about to get real,

Greek PM Alexis Tsipras calls referendum on bailout terms.


http://gu.com/p/4a6qp?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Messages

Technically they will already be in default if they miss the June 30th deadline but that's mere detail. They've been in default, in reality, for a very long time.

Very interesting turn of events. If the Greeks vote no will the Greek government refuse the EU's austerity demands? Does the EU then amend it's demands?
If it's a yes vote do the Greeks agree to the EU's demands or do we enter another phase of negotiations?

Nothing to say the result will be final and binding..

quincy
27-06-2015, 13:31
Again Athens finds itself at loggerheads with its creditors, particularly the IMF. The Greeks appear to be willing to do only enough to stay in the Eurozone, while the rest of Europe is willing to offer it just enough support to stay afloat – all awhile making the Greek economy almost impossible to grow. Is the Euro a failure?

CrossTalking with Mitch Feierstein, Stephen Haseler, and Scheherazade Rehman.
http://rt.com/shows/crosstalk/269752-greek-pain-eurozone-creditors/

Judge
29-06-2015, 10:06
Technically they will already be in default if they miss the June 30th deadline but that's mere detail. They've been in default, in reality, for a very long time.

Very interesting turn of events. If the Greeks vote no will the Greek government refuse the EU's austerity demands? Does the EU then amend it's demands?
If it's a yes vote do the Greeks agree to the EU's demands or do we enter another phase of negotiations?

Nothing to say the result will be final and binding..

A massive move by the Greeks, to hold a vote after the 30th,
Banks are shut all week, along with the locals, there will be a few worried tourists. .

Uncle Wally
29-06-2015, 12:11
A massive move by the Greeks, to hold a vote after the 30th,
Banks are shut all week, along with the locals, there will be a few worried tourists. .



Tourist can still take out the limit of what their bank card allow. Greeks are limited to €60

Judge
29-06-2015, 12:37
Tourist can still take out the limit of what their bank card allow. Greeks are limited to €60

Yes, tourists better watch out, they can 100s/1000s out and the locals nearly nothing. .
I'm wondering when Putin might make an announcement, throw the Greeks a few billion ( recent gas deal ) to pay workers and pensioners at the last minute, he's on holiday,so who knows. .

Uncle Wally
29-06-2015, 13:45
Yes, tourists better watch out, they can 100s/1000s out and the locals nearly nothing. .
I'm wondering when Putin might make an announcement, throw the Greeks a few billion ( recent gas deal ) to pay workers and pensioners at the last minute, he's on holiday,so who knows. .



I think they have to wait until after a bankruptcy because if Russia gives money before the IMF will just expect to get some of that. It should go to the Greek people not banksters.

Russian Lad
29-06-2015, 13:46
The ruble is falling today due to problems in Greece. I don't even want to think what will happen here in Russia if the whole EU begins having problems. Talk about digging a hole for your neighbor and getting into it yourself... What a grand example.:10518::voodoo::mooooh:

Uncle Wally
29-06-2015, 14:08
The ruble is falling today due to problems in Greece. I don't even want to think what will happen here in Russia if the whole EU begins having problems. Talk about digging a hole for your neighbor and getting into it yourself... What a grand example.:10518::voodoo::mooooh:



It's IMF and greedy bankers which has caused the problems. They have built a system where we can't live without them and they can rob us blind.

annasophia
29-06-2015, 14:44
I see a rather natural cohesion between Greece and Russia, cultural and religion connections. History matters.

I perceive very little cultural connection between Greece and Brussels, or Germany. Perhaps even deep animosity. History matters.

I think Tsprias has done the right thing asking the people to vote on a referendum.

We can only wait to see how it all plays out. Will the Greek people vote themselves into Euro serfitude to the EU freedum masters, or will they look to more traditional partnerships for alliance?

Or will the EU trash all of it to install a Eurocracy Greek government?

We shall see.

To the Greek people being yanked on the short chain of the puppet masters [bankers]: You never deserved any of this. You're nothing but collateral damage in the global corporate takeover.

Russian Lad
29-06-2015, 14:58
You see more cultural connection between Greece and Russia than between Greece and the rest of Europe? Lol. Can you tell us why exactly? :eh:

Uncle Wally
29-06-2015, 15:34
You see more cultural connection between Greece and Russia than between Greece and the rest of Europe? Lol. Can you tell us why exactly? :eh:



Common religion.

fenrir
29-06-2015, 15:49
I see a rather natural cohesion between Greece and Russia, cultural and religion connections. History matters.

I perceive very little cultural connection between Greece and Brussels, or Germany. Perhaps even deep animosity. History matters.

I think Tsprias has done the right thing asking the people to vote on a referendum.

We can only wait to see how it all plays out. Will the Greek people vote themselves into Euro serfitude to the EU freedum masters, or will they look to more traditional partnerships for alliance?

Or will the EU trash all of it to install a Eurocracy Greek government?

We shall see.

To the Greek people being yanked on the short chain of the puppet masters [bankers]: You never deserved any of this. You're nothing but collateral damage in the global corporate takeover.

I wonder if you would say the same things if Greece owed Russia 256 billion euros and was about to default on the debt.

Judge
29-06-2015, 16:13
Common religion.

OK, pic isn't uploading,

Scroll down a few pics to the petrol station pic,
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jun/29/greek-crisis-stock-markets-slide-capital-controls-banks-closed-live
I think we can work out a word or two here,

Uncle Wally
29-06-2015, 16:59
Looks like it's going down to the wire.

Uncle Wally
29-06-2015, 17:01
I wonder if you would say the same things if Greece owed Russia 256 billion euros and was about to default on the debt.



It's not like its real money or anything. It's fiat, it's a scam, like a pyramid scheme.

Russian Lad
29-06-2015, 17:35
Common religion, right. What is funny, only 41% of the Russian Federation citizens are Orthodox Christians. Even Romania has 82%, and the number of Orthodox Christians is higher in such European countries as Bulgaria than in Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church_by_country

In this respect, religion doesn't fit into the picture, unless you want to blatantly lie to yourself and to others. What else?

penka
29-06-2015, 19:20
Greece and Russia ties? Religion, tradition, history in general (not necessarily in that order:)).

Of course, Europe will get hit by the Greek meltdown. Stock exchanges certainly will, if not already. Dollar should rush, euro should limp. Logically.

But, frankly, I'd be surprised if Greece will be let to go in the end, as there are too many complications for the EU that might follow. Neither Italy, nor Spain or Portugal are in the best economic shape and have that been for a while and there are not so negligible forces that are sick of Bruxelles. Bet, Germany will lose big in the case of Grexit. And crumbling EU is certainly not something that the US would want to see, methinks:)

Russian Lad
29-06-2015, 19:42
The question wasn't about ties, Russia has ties to any European country, including to Sweden, via your kind assistance, for instance. The claim was Greece is closer to Russia historically than to Europe itself (ref.: post #38, page 3).

penka
29-06-2015, 20:00
The question wasn't about ties, Russia has ties to any European country, including to Sweden, via your kind assistance, for instance. The claim was Greece is closer to Russia historically than to Europe itself (ref.: post #38, page 3).

Well, one should go back to the varyags time and the glorious Byzans in that case:D

Not sure about my "kind assistance", though. Sweden does not lay a claim on a greater love for Russia.

Russian Lad
29-06-2015, 20:25
Well, whether you want it or not, you are my only connection to Sweden, for instance. So, you are a connection, sometimes voluntarily, sometimes even being unaware of that. :evilgrin:

TolkoRaz
29-06-2015, 20:34
Well, one should go back to the varyags time and the glorious Byzans in that case:D

Not sure about my "kind assistance", though. Sweden does not lay a claim on a greater love for Russia.

Penka, You make a great Ambassador for the RF :)

Spread the word, Russia and Russians are not all bad, nor are they the enemy!

penka
29-06-2015, 20:50
Penka, You make a great Ambassador for the RF :)

Spread the word, Russia and Russians are not all bad, nor are they the enemy!

Doing my best:)

Uncle Wally
29-06-2015, 20:55
Common religion, right. What is funny, only 41% of the Russian Federation citizens are Orthodox Christians. Even Romania has 82%, and the number of Orthodox Christians is higher in such European countries as Bulgaria than in Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church_by_country

In this respect, religion doesn't fit into the picture, unless you want to blatantly lie to yourself and to others. What else?


When did the people of country ever matter to it's government?

Uncle Wally
29-06-2015, 21:00
The question wasn't about ties, Russia has ties to any European country, including to Sweden, via your kind assistance, for instance. The claim was Greece is closer to Russia historically than to Europe itself (ref.: post #38, page 3).



One big difference is that Russia treats Greece as equal while the EU, well lets say " dictates" to. Who would you want to be "friends" with?

Nobbynumbnuts
29-06-2015, 21:01
Greece and Russia ties? Religion, tradition, history in general (not necessarily in that order:)).

Of course, Europe will get hit by the Greek meltdown. Stock exchanges certainly will, if not already. Dollar should rush, euro should limp. Logically.

But, frankly, I'd be surprised if Greece will be let to go in the end, as there are too many complications for the EU that might follow. Neither Italy, nor Spain or Portugal are in the best economic shape and have that been for a while and there are not so negligible forces that are sick of Bruxelles. Bet, Germany will lose big in the case of Grexit. And crumbling EU is certainly not something that the US would want to see, methinks:)

Ah penka, someone who can grasp the basics! ;)

As you rightly say and i agree, i don't think the Greeks will be pushed out of the Euro. Worth remembering that the Euro was meant to be forever. If the Greeks depart then what about the Italians, the Spanish, Portuguese etc? A Greek exit would seriously hit the value of the Euro of course but worse still it will effect it's credibility...

TolkoRaz
29-06-2015, 21:03
What credibility has the Euro got when Euro countries are being propped up?

Uncle Wally
29-06-2015, 21:04
Penka, You make a great Ambassador for the RF :)

Spread the word, Russia and Russians are not all bad, nor are they the enemy!



You are correct sir! Russia is not the enemy! Sadly some feel a need to keep creating enemies and it is they who are the real enemy.

Nobbynumbnuts
29-06-2015, 21:20
What credibility has the Euro got when Euro countries are being propped up?

Difficult times for the Euro no doubt but many currencies go through periods of turmoil, the ruble has been through quite a few and is still around. ;)
The Euro is being propped up by the ECB (European Central Bank) just as any central bank would in times of trouble. Greece has ask and got support from the IMF as well.

As long as the Euro maintains it's original goal of one currency for all member states in the monetary union, it continues to have support from Germany (unthinkable that will change) and doesn't allow anyone to 'quit' then it will probably survive..

TolkoRaz
29-06-2015, 21:24
The Euro would be more credible if it was restricted to the West European powerhouses of Germany, France and the UK.

Inviting this cohort of 3rd World countries to the club has had a deep detrimental effect!

Nobbynumbnuts
29-06-2015, 21:33
The Euro would be more credible if it was restricted to the West European powerhouses of Germany, France and the UK.

Inviting this cohort of 3rd World countries to the club has had a deep detrimental effect!

Yes but the only real solution now is closer integration, this must come at some point. That means member countries giving up their central banks and financial control over their economies. One currency should mean one central bank, not the 17 or so they have now...

TolkoRaz
29-06-2015, 22:09
That will not happen when you have individual countries which are struggling! Why should the strong & fiscally healthy bail out and support the weak ones, of which there are many!

penka
29-06-2015, 22:20
Ah penka, someone who can grasp the basics! ;)

As you rightly say and i agree, i don't think the Greeks will be pushed out of the Euro. Worth remembering that the Euro was meant to be forever. If the Greeks depart then what about the Italians, the Spanish, Portuguese etc? A Greek exit would seriously hit the value of the Euro of course but worse still it will effect it's credibility...

;)

penka
29-06-2015, 22:25
That will not happen when you have individual countries which are struggling! Why should the strong & fiscally healthy bail out and support the weak ones, of which there are many!

I'd rather agree with Nobby, as one central bank must be a goal. Whether it is attainable or not, is difficult to say.
But you are forgetting, finance is not the only sphere of interest at play here;)

Nobbynumbnuts
29-06-2015, 22:38
That will not happen when you have individual countries which are struggling! Why should the strong & fiscally healthy bail out and support the weak ones, of which there are many!

I don't think so, it would be in many of the weaker countries interests to have their fiscal policy taken away from them and put in the hands of the European Commission and the ECB. It's about sovereignty getting everyone to agree that interest rates, taxes etc are set from the center.

Nobbynumbnuts
29-06-2015, 22:44
I'd rather agree with Nobby, as one central bank must be a goal. Whether it is attainable or not, is difficult to say.
But you are forgetting, finance is not the only sphere of interest at play here;)

Of course, is there another single major currency that doesn't have one central bank? Lots of large countries face the challenge of different economic situations in different parts eg. Germany and Portugal, Spain etc. These can be smoothed out by incentives and an adjusted fiscal policy for those regions..

penka
30-06-2015, 00:25
Of course, is there another single major currency that doesn't have one central bank? Lots of large countries face the challenge of different economic situations in different parts eg. Germany and Portugal, Spain etc. These can be smoothed out by incentives and an adjusted fiscal policy for those regions..

Indeed, that is quite rational. And that might balance out the average living standard as well.
One could have, of course, started to talk, there's "a national independency" price tag attached to this measure but frankly, we are beyond that point:)

Nobbynumbnuts
30-06-2015, 01:15
Indeed, that is quite rational. And that might balance out the average living standard as well.
One could have, of course, started to talk, there's "a national independency" price tag attached to this measure but frankly, we are beyond that point:)

Right, the EU has a long and difficult path to put things in order but i think the institutions are there to allow it to happen, if everyone can agree a way forward..

Fantastika
30-06-2015, 06:50
Okay, so Greece goes belly-up today. In a few days, Puerto Rico, which owes $70 billion, will declare bankruptcy. (Puerto Rico is essentially America's 51st state, they have all the privileges of Americans but are not required to pay federal taxes like everyone else. I think this gives them a welfare mentality, and they have borrowed themselves into a cushy life-style, without working for it.)

And next week Ukraine will be giving the one-finger salute to investors, creditors and banks across the Northern Hemisphere.

I would be laughing but I bought Call options Friday in my little stock market account...why...why...why? Stupid...stupid...stupid... One doesn't have to be a descendant of Nostradamus or an expert on the Ouija board to predict Wall Street was going to fall off a cliff today. Sheesh!

More fun (if you like wild and crazy) for the next couple of weeks...

Judge
30-06-2015, 20:49
This is going to the wire,
Gotta hand it to the Greek leaders for entertainment.


Their chief negotiator has gone all Godfather and claimed a referendum could still be called off if Athens is presented with an offer they "can't refuse"

Nobbynumbnuts
30-06-2015, 21:20
This is going to the wire,
Gotta hand it to the Greek leaders for entertainment.

..bit like the showdown at the OK Corral! ;)

Judge
01-07-2015, 09:26
A good enough reason to stick it to the bankers, The Greeks are saying no to another 15 + years of austerity and suffering...others were saying the debt was sustainable.


IMF: austerity measures would still leave Greece with unsustainable debt
Secret documents show creditors’ baseline estimate puts debt at 118% of GDP in 2030, even if it signs up to all tax and spending reforms demanded by troika
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/30/greek-debt-troika-analysis-says-significant-concessions-still-needed

Fantastika
01-07-2015, 17:15
A good enough reason to stick it to the bankers, The Greeks are saying no to another 15 + years of austerity and suffering...others were saying the debt was sustainable.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/30/greek-debt-troika-analysis-says-significant-concessions-still-needed

You can't run an economy by allowing retirement at 42 years of age. It just won't work.

Nobbynumbnuts
01-07-2015, 19:29
A good enough reason to stick it to the bankers, The Greeks are saying no to another 15 + years of austerity and suffering...others were saying the debt was sustainable.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/30/greek-debt-troika-analysis-says-significant-concessions-still-needed

Yesterday the Greeks about turned and offered to cancel the referendum at the weekend. Merkel wasn't impressed and basically replied, "you've called it, now get on with it"!

The Greeks also tabled two new offers for debt repayment, both of which were rejected by the creditors.

The Greeks have blinked first......;)

TolkoRaz
01-07-2015, 21:36
Greece has over 6,000 islands - I would have thought that they could have sold a few to clear their debt! :10310:

Judge
01-07-2015, 21:41
Greece has over 6,000 islands - I would have thought that they could have sold a few to clear their debt! :10310:

Then rich Chinese , Russians and Saudis would buy them all, where would the Brits and Germans go on holiday. ..;)

FatAndy
01-07-2015, 21:45
Greece has over 6,000 islands - I would have thought that they could have sold a few to clear their debt! :10310:
For what we'd need 6000 naval bases?! :D

TolkoRaz
01-07-2015, 21:48
For what we'd need 6000 naval bases?! :D

Or, 6000 ships! ;)

Judge
01-07-2015, 21:49
Yesterday the Greeks about turned and offered to cancel the referendum at the weekend. Merkel wasn't impressed and basically replied, "you've called it, now get on with it"!

The Greeks also tabled two new offers for debt repayment, both of which were rejected by the creditors.

The Greeks have blinked first......;)

Blinked, bluffed, maybe they knew it would be rejected, ti show that they are trying. Big politics at play here,goes to show what a mess of a situation the EU is really in, it's a union, they should be united ,not letting one of their own suffer. .

TolkoRaz
01-07-2015, 21:50
There is not much love lost between Greece & Germany! ;)

Nobbynumbnuts
01-07-2015, 21:58
Blinked, bluffed, maybe they knew it would be rejected, ti show that they are trying. Big politics at play here,goes to show what a mess of a situation the EU is really in, it's a union, they should be united ,not letting one of their own suffer. .

This new government in Greece won it's mandate on a promise to reject the austerity forced upon them from the EU. They've caved just like the previous government. If they agree to the austerity package there will be a lot of very angry Greeks who voters who voted for them.

They've stood by Greece for the past 5 years, pumping hundreds of billions (the largest bailout in world history) to keep Greece afloat. Greece is not an innocent victim in all this.....

Judge
01-07-2015, 22:18
This new government in Greece won it's mandate on a promise to reject the austerity forced upon them from the EU. They've caved just like the previous government. If they agree to the austerity package there will be a lot of very angry Greeks who voters who voted for them.

They've stood by Greece for the past 5 years, pumping hundreds of billions (the largest bailout in world history) to keep Greece afloat. Greece is not an innocent victim in all this.....


Now they owe nearly 350bn...
Let them keep pumping ;)

Would you keep giving a drug addict drugs?

Nobbynumbnuts
01-07-2015, 22:52
........Would you keep giving a drug addict drugs?


Precisely. That's why they need the austerity. ;)

Judge
01-07-2015, 22:59
You can't run an economy by allowing retirement at 42 years of age. It just won't work.

Depends on the job, no? Say someone joined the police or the army at 18, does we years service is then entitled to a full pension. .

Judge
01-07-2015, 23:01
Precisely. That's why they need the austerity. ;)

In other words detox, problem is constant suffering, 1000s of suicides, a recent leaked IMF doc said the Greeks will suffer like this for the next 20 years. .
It's time to give the Greeks another bailout ,might as well make it a cool 500bn

Nobbynumbnuts
01-07-2015, 23:04
In other words detox, problem is constant suffering, 1000s of suicides, a recent leaked IMF doc said the Greeks will suffer like this for the next 20 years. .

...they borrowed the money

Judge
01-07-2015, 23:08
...they borrowed the money

Sure, now give them more money to pay off what they borrowed.
The bottom line is, the Greeks borrowed too much and now they can't pay it back, yes, partly to blame but also the bankers for screwing up too...The amount of money we are talking about is crazy,from QE, there is too much money around .

Do the Greeks owe government banks or mostly private banks, private banks will get their money back but tax payers will lose if it's government banks, I wonder how the German public is taking all this,I can't see them being happy bailing out the Greeks again.

Nobbynumbnuts
01-07-2015, 23:17
Sure, now give them more money to pay off what they borrowed.
The bottom line is, the Greeks borrowed too much and now they can't pay it back, yes, partly to blame but also the bankers for screwing up too...

The money they are lending is to keep them afloat. The austerity will lead to debt repayment.
The problem is if Greece is allowed to write off it's debt what about Italy, Spain and Portugal. They will demand the same treatment.

TolkoRaz
01-07-2015, 23:26
Can they not sell some of their antiquities, like the Acropolis?

Plenty of Russians would love to have that rebuilt at the rear of their uber-dacha!

penka
01-07-2015, 23:30
The money they are lending is to keep them afloat. The austerity will lead to debt repayment.
The problem is if Greece is allowed to write off it's debt what about Italy, Spain and Portugal. They will demand the same treatment.

Precisely. Most probably, EU will offer some restructuring of the debt and pressure Tsipras on the austerity measures. And that's the only constructive way under the circumstances as it seems.

Judge
02-07-2015, 00:04
The money they are lending is to keep them afloat. The austerity will lead to debt repayment.
The problem is if Greece is allowed to write off it's debt what about Italy, Spain and Portugal. They will demand the same treatment.

All sounds good written down, but they are asking for more cuts, deeper austerity, asking for too much really....

Italy and others , will cross that bridge one sunny day, for now best focus on Greece...
btw, didn't the Spanish exit their bailout programme ?

penka
02-07-2015, 00:21
All sounds good written down, but they are asking for more cuts, deeper austerity, asking for too much really....

Italy and others , will cross that bridge one sunny day, for now best focus on Greece...
btw, didn't the Spanish exit their bailout programme ?

The other variant is to declare a state bankruptcy. Is that a better idea?..

No sane money lender could or should keep on pumping in money into something on that brink and without any severe demands.

Uncle Wally
02-07-2015, 00:52
The money they are lending is to keep them afloat. The austerity will lead to debt repayment.
The problem is if Greece is allowed to write off it's debt what about Italy, Spain and Portugal. They will demand the same treatment.



And why not? It's not like it's real money! Why is it that the first to be paid are the same people that made this "credit/money/debt slavery" out of nothing and demand something for the out of nothing they themselves have created? Wow maybe I should start to sell nothing! Seems people are buying it.

nicklcool
02-07-2015, 01:55
And why not? It's not like it's real money! Why is it that the first to be paid are the same people that made this "credit/money/debt slavery" out of nothing and demand something for the out of nothing they themselves have created? Wow maybe I should start to sell nothing! Seems people are buying it.


The Greeks and their government bought real things with the money. Nobody said you had to buy the pool cell phone fancy car go on retirement etc. - you bought it and turned yourself into a slave instead of living within your means or finding ways to expand your means.

Money is a debt instrument - you trade your time/labor for the money; if you want the old system you trade your goods/services for my goods/services - still no slavery involved! :celebrate:

Judge
02-07-2015, 06:44
The other variant is to declare a state bankruptcy. Is that a better idea?..

No sane money lender could or should keep on pumping in money into something on that brink and without any severe demands.

they go bankrupt and switch to their own money and then on their own terms settle their debt with the creditors . It's not like they will lose property when they go bankrupt , like islands confiscated cos of bad debt.

jooz
02-07-2015, 06:52
they go bankrupt and switch to their own money and then on their own terms settle their debt with the creditors . It's not like they will lose property when they go bankrupt , like islands confiscated cos of bad debt.

one issue though is greece will need new creditors while it transitions back to a national currency, and even the chinese might not be willing to lend on favorable terms with a country so recently defaulted.

I do agree greece needs to establish a fiat currency it has control over rather than leaving it to the puppets in the eu, however there is real headache on leaving in good enough terms that they will be acceptable to SCO, BRICS or EEU.

Nobbynumbnuts
02-07-2015, 19:27
they go bankrupt and switch to their own money and then on their own terms settle their debt with the creditors . It's not like they will lose property when they go bankrupt , like islands confiscated cos of bad debt.

Judge, you are assuming the Greeks are stupid then. If it was that easy they would have done it years ago. The consequences for the Greek people of a default and therefore bankruptcy will be catastrophic. For example, the (new) drachma will be worth a fraction of what it was, leading to rampant inflation and essentials (esp. imported medicines, food, parts etc) beyond the reach of ordinary people. Savings will be practically wiped out etc etc...............that's why they are reluctant to do it.

Nobbynumbnuts
02-07-2015, 19:29
one issue though is greece will need new creditors while it transitions back to a national currency, and even the chinese might not be willing to lend on favorable terms with a country so recently defaulted.

I do agree greece needs to establish a fiat currency it has control over rather than leaving it to the puppets in the eu, however there is real headache on leaving in good enough terms that they will be acceptable to SCO, BRICS or EEU.

..going to take anything from 12-18 months to reintroduce the drachma. Meanwhile the forward rate of exchange would be plummeting.

Russian Lad
02-07-2015, 23:05
Judge, you are assuming the Greeks are stupid then. If it was that easy they would have done it years ago. The consequences for the Greek people of a default and therefore bankruptcy will be catastrophic. For example, the (new) drachma will be worth a fraction of what it was, leading to rampant inflation and essentials (esp. imported medicines, food, parts etc) beyond the reach of ordinary people. Savings will be practically wiped out etc etc...............that's why they are reluctant to do it.

You are lying, like Judge said, it is all very easy, a walk in the park, no islands confiscated, no harm done, restaurants would be full of laughing Greek people, celebrating their true independence with heavily armed, laughing Russian soldiers from huge Russian military compounds sprawling in the vicinity.:rolleyes: Don't undermine their wet dreams, it is like taking cigs away from prisoners about to begin serving life sentence... Let them have fun while it is still available to them, they will be crying bitterly and biting their nails pretty soon.

Judge
02-07-2015, 23:20
This gets even better, keep pumping money:applause:
At least they are now talking about a grace period.


The International Monetary Fund has electrified the referendum debate in Greece after it conceded that the crisis-ridden country needs up to €60bn (£42bn) of extra funds over the next three years and large-scale debt relief to create “a breathing space” and stabilise the economy.


According to the IMF, Greece should have a 20-year grace period before making any debt repayments and final payments should not take place until 2055. It would need €10bn to get through the next few months and a further €50bn after that.
http://gu.com/p/4ab68?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Messages

Nobbynumbnuts
02-07-2015, 23:35
This gets even better, keep pumping money:applause:
At least they are now talking about a grace period.




http://gu.com/p/4ab68?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Messages

Judge, i don't understand your amusement, there are no winners..

Judge
02-07-2015, 23:36
one issue though is greece will need new creditors while it transitions back to a national currency, and even the chinese might not be willing to lend on favorable terms with a country so recently defaulted.

I do agree greece needs to establish a fiat currency it has control over rather than leaving it to the puppets in the eu, however there is real headache on leaving in good enough terms that they will be acceptable to SCO, BRICS or EEU.

The BRICS bank is up and running soon ,Greece could be their first client.Will be hard to leave on good terms with the current Greek leaders, but deals can be made, promises given,.
Once the Greeks have control over their own currency, in under 5 years they will be back on their feet, even the IMF report says the Greek with be screwed for 20, 30 years if they keep going down this road..better to suffer sharp,short shock treatment now over decades of misery. .

Nobbynumbnuts
02-07-2015, 23:47
The BRICS bank is up and running soon ,Greece could be their first client.Will be hard to leave on good terms with the current Greek leaders, but deals can be made, promises given,.
Once the Greeks have control over their own currency, in under 5 years they will be back on their feet, even the IMF report says the Greek with be screwed for 20, 30 years if they keep going down this road..better to suffer sharp,short shock treatment now over decades of misery. .

Right and you've worked all this out on the back of a cigarette packet but those dumb Greeks can't. :rolleyes:

The Greeks could be the Brics bank's first customer? I assume they wouldn't have to fill in an application form that asks them to lists their liabilities then? :D

Where do you get the notion that in 5 years they're back on their feet? The Beano?

Judge
02-07-2015, 23:50
Judge, i don't understand your amusement, there are no winners..

Don't you find it amusing ,the solution to this problem is to give the Greeks another bailout,60bn euros.

Judge
02-07-2015, 23:51
one issue though is greece will need new creditors while it transitions back to a national currency, and even the chinese might not be willing to lend on favorable terms with a country so recently defaulted.

I do agree greece needs to establish a fiat currency it has control over rather than leaving it to the puppets in the eu, however there is real headache on leaving in good enough terms that they will be acceptable to SCO, BRICS or EEU.

I forgot about another Chinese led bank,AIIB was launched this week, maybe it's time for the Chinese to step up and be a real global player in the banking world. .

Nobbynumbnuts
02-07-2015, 23:57
Don't you find it amusing ,the solution to this problem is to give the Greeks another bailout,60bn euros.

I think your having trouble understanding the scale of the problem. The additional 60bn is not a solution, merely a life raft. The solution is for Greece to get it's financial management in order..

Judge
03-07-2015, 00:00
Right and you've worked all this out on the back of a cigarette packet but those dumb Greeks can't. :rolleyes:

The Greeks could be the Brics bank's first customer? I assume they wouldn't have to fill in an application form that asks them to lists their liabilities then? :D

Where do you get the notion that in 5 years they're back on their feet? The Beano?

I don't smoke,

The Chinese know the Greeks well enough, they have already invested billions there,no need for such paperwork.

5 years, from the same place the IMF plucked their 30 years of suffering from, thin air.

What do you suggest, they keep rolling over the debt,years of austerity , soon they will owe close to €500bn.....

Nobbynumbnuts
03-07-2015, 00:05
I don't smoke,

The Chinese know the Greeks well enough, they have already invested billions there,no need for such paperwork.

5 years, from the same place the IMF plucked their 30 years of suffering from, thin air.

What do you suggest, they keep rolling over the debt,years of austerity , soon they will owe close to €500bn.....

We all know the Greeks for christsakes! They don't pay taxes, they award themselves massive state benefits, they gave themselves the option to retire at 55 etc etc. Then sleep all afternoon.

And in your world the Chinese, Russians and Bric Bank will be queuing up to lend them more money?

Judge, you need a lie down....:rolleyes:

Judge
03-07-2015, 00:13
I think your having trouble understanding the scale of the problem. The additional 60bn is not a solution, merely a life raft. The solution is for Greece to get it's financial management in order..

Are you disagreeing with the IMF,why? €60bn is a drop in the ocean. .. don't you find it amusing they wanna throw more money at the problem. ...

Russian Lad
03-07-2015, 00:20
Judge, you need a lie down....

Or to begin smoking. Life is probably shorter this way, but at least one can stay focused.:rolleyes: You sound like Wally on this one. Ok, I have the Ultimate Solution - 350 billion will come from Russia for just a few military bases and the middle finger from Greece to the EU! Bingo! To be wired tomorrow, and let's celebrate. Russia still has this emergency fund and can afford to promote its national interests.

Judge
03-07-2015, 00:46
Or to begin smoking. Life is probably shorter this way, but at least one can stay focused.:rolleyes: You sound like Wally on this one. Ok, I have the Ultimate Solution - 350 billion will come from Russia for just a few military bases and the middle finger from Greece to the EU! Bingo! To be wired tomorrow, and let's celebrate. Russia still has this emergency fund and can afford to promote its national interests.

Then the Greeks would be no use to Russia if they left the EU..

Uncle Wally
03-07-2015, 03:41
We all know the Greeks for christsakes! They don't pay taxes, they award themselves massive state benefits, they gave themselves the option to retire at 55 etc etc. Then sleep all afternoon.

And in your world the Chinese, Russians and Bric Bank will be queuing up to lend them more money?

Judge, you need a lie down....:rolleyes:


To our Greek expat forum members please just ignore him, he knows not what he's saying. He is just getting old and his mind is going, not that he ever had much of one.


Gee numbnuts sorry we all can't be English like you.

Uncle Wally
03-07-2015, 03:44
Or to begin smoking. Life is probably shorter this way, but at least one can stay focused.:rolleyes: You sound like Wally on this one. Ok, I have the Ultimate Solution - 350 billion will come from Russia for just a few military bases and the middle finger from Greece to the EU! Bingo! To be wired tomorrow, and let's celebrate. Russia still has this emergency fund and can afford to promote its national interests.



It's really had to watch someone get so bitter that they're losing that it drives them nuts.

jooz
03-07-2015, 04:01
It's really had to watch someone get so bitter that they're losing that it drives them nuts.
It's really had to watch someone get so bitter that they're losing that it drives them nuts. :neiner:

Russian Lad
03-07-2015, 08:53
they're losing

What am I losing exactly? So far, all goes according to my predictions. Except maybe for the dollar being 100, but, first of all, it got there already at least once, and second - the ruble is most likely propped now like there is no tomorrow, with additional funds squandered on this hopeless task daily. Even the Chinese have refused to lend money, even to the Sila Sibiri project, thus joining the Western sanctions, informally but nonetheless effectively.
It is really a no brainer: borrowing restricted severely, investments fleeing the country, unhealthy economic climate, falling national currency - plants down, job cuts, prices increase - less consumption - more job cuts and more plants down. It is a vicious, toxic spiral, and the Russian economy is smack in the middle of it, slowly moving downwards. What is funny, they are worried about Greece and Ukraine for all this while. The lack of brainpower is astounding.

Judge
03-07-2015, 09:47
Even the Chinese have refused to lend money, even to the Sila Sibiri project, thus joining the Western sanctions, informally but nonetheless effectively.
:fridaysign:
http://rt.com/business/270352-russia-china-gas-pipeline/

Russian Lad
03-07-2015, 10:10
So, how does it refute what I said? They may have started the construction on their end, but they refused to lend money to Gazprom, thus directly supporting the Western sanctions:
http://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/articles/2014/09/24/gazoobraznye-dengi
http://aftershock.su/?q=node/259380
http://www.oilcapital.ru/transport/252992.html
http://medialeaks.ru/news/1011yt_gazprom

How about starting smoking, Judge? It can help to focus, like I said.

Judge
03-07-2015, 10:19
So, how does it refute what I said? They may have started the construction on their end, but they refused to lend money to Gazprom, thus directly supporting the Western sanctions:
http://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/articles/2014/09/24/gazoobraznye-dengi
http://aftershock.su/?q=node/259380
http://www.oilcapital.ru/transport/252992.html
http://medialeaks.ru/news/1011yt_gazprom

How about starting smoking, Judge? It can help to focus, like I said.

This is last years news, :ok:

Russian Lad
03-07-2015, 10:26
Nothing has changed since then, here, from 26.06.2015:
http://teknoblog.ru/2015/06/26/41572

From June 16, 2015: "Chinese banks have joined Western sanctions against Russia": http://www.finanz.ru/novosti/aktsii/kitayskie-banki-prisoedinilis-k-sankciyam-protiv-rf-1000677922

For the third time, a cigarette?:)

Judge
03-07-2015, 10:47
Nothing has changed since then, here, from 26.06.2015:
http://teknoblog.ru/2015/06/26/41572

From June 16, 2015: "Chinese banks have joined Western sanctions against Russia": http://www.finanz.ru/novosti/aktsii/kitayskie-banki-prisoedinilis-k-sankciyam-protiv-rf-1000677922

For the third time, a cigarette?:)

They can afford it, that's what your link says, what's the big deal,this was last year's news ..the pipline is being built and will be up and running as planned, keep posting irrelevant links,:rasta:

I take it you haven't heard of the new silk road?

Russian Lad
03-07-2015, 10:56
the pipline is being built and will be up and running as planned

How come it is only last year's news if I posted links from June this year as well? Last year it may have been no lending from China only to this project, this year - almost no lending at all to the whole country (finanz.ru is a respected source, I have no reason to think they are lying).
Maybe it will be built eventually, but with a big additional cost for Russia (and its tax-payers). I have seen those "builders" personally and talked to them daily in the times of the Nord Stream. Knowing about how it really works a bit more, I can tell you one thing - more surprises ahead. Unpleasant ones.

Uncle Wally
03-07-2015, 11:25
How come it is only last year's news if I posted links from June this year as well? Last year it may have been no lending from China only to this project, this year - almost no lending at all to the whole country (finanz.ru is a respected source, I have no reason to think they are lying).
Maybe it will be built eventually, but with a big additional cost for Russia (and its tax-payers). I have seen those "builders" personally and talked to them daily in the times of the Nord Stream. Knowing about how it really works a bit more, I can tell you one thing - more surprises ahead. Unpleasant ones.



We expect nothing less than bad news from you. Do you really think the grass is greener? Greece is not the only one in trouble.

Funny again that nobody here is concerned that America's debt has been frozen and is magically stuck at just 25 million under the debt ceiling. They still magically spend money.

Russian Lad
03-07-2015, 12:02
We expect nothing less than bad news from you.

I am not generating any news, I am just sharing them. Sorry I don't feel like laughing from happiness when facing an imminent disaster. I run for cover.:watching:

Uncle Wally
03-07-2015, 12:48
I am not generating any news, I am just sharing them. Sorry I don't feel like laughing from happiness when facing an imminent disaster. I run for cover.:watching:



But you are doing great! It's everyone else that is going to suffer.

Life is what you make of it. You can cry, run for cover or you can laugh and meet the challenge. There are ways to capitalize on any situation and if you just sit around whining and worrying you just make it worse and get deeper in despair. The choice is yours.

Russian Lad
03-07-2015, 13:39
But you are doing great! It's everyone else that is going to suffer.

Life is what you make of it. You can cry, run for cover or you can laugh and meet the challenge. There are ways to capitalize on any situation and if you just sit around whining and worrying you just make it worse and get deeper in despair. The choice is yours.

I am doing relatively fine, I would say. But it is only because I am a freelancer, detached from the system to the maximum (not fully, at that), and because I keep all my savings in hard currency. If I was, say, an English language teacher at a Russian school somewhere in Arkhangelsk, I would not be doing that good, to put it mildly. Also, if you knew Russian and cared to read Russian translators' boards, you would have one word in mind - panic. It is sheer, unabridged, primordial panic there - many people are out of their jobs and don't know with what to feed their children, I am not exaggerating one bit. The industry has been hit very hard and the waves of this disaster are already attacking the peaceful shores of my shiny, remote and tranquil island.
Besides, why are you bringing it to a personal level? We seem to have been discussing macroeconomics in relation to geopolitics and vice versa.
Life is what you make of it, true, but it is only a part of the truth and you know it yourself.

Nobbynumbnuts
04-07-2015, 13:14
A little taster of what a Grexit would feel like for the people of Greece, should it happen.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-debt-crisis-food-and-vital-drug-shortages-ahead-of-historic-referendum-tomorrow-10365725.html

Greek debt crisis: Food and vital drug 'shortages' ahead of historic referendum tomorrow.Greek pharmacists and supermarkets warned of vital drug and food shortages as the country’s Prime Minister delivered a defiant message to the population last night.

Addressing a rally of some 25,000 supporters Alexis Tsipras urged the crowd to vote ‘No’ on Sunday’s referendum, telling voters to defy “those who terrorise you”.

It was a bold message, but one at odds with reports emerging from people at the frontline services of a country crippled by debt and haemorrhaging important tourist incomes.

Pharmacies are reportedly out of vital drugs, such as Thyroxine - used to treat Thyroid conditions - with one chemist confirming she had “shortages”.

Mary Papadopoulou, who runs a pharmacy in Plaka district, told the Guardian that “unless things change dramatically we’ll be having a lot more shortages next week.”

It is not the first warning. Last week the European Federation of Pharmaceutical Industries and Associations (EFPIA) wrote to the European Commission to warn the Greek medicine supply chain is more complicated than other EU nations and therefore “particularly vulnerable” to disruption.

The public letter added that should the supply chain fall, this could present "a risk to public health".

The majority of Greece’s drugs are imported, with the country owing international companies an estimated €1.1bn (£779m), and although the largest companies – such as GlaxoSmithKline and AstraZeneca – have drawn up contingency plans it remains unclear what will happen should a Grexit take place.
Meanwhile, restaurants and hotels – as well as basic supermarkets – have claimed to be suffering from food shortages. The islands of Mykonos and Santorini, hugely popular tourist destinations, have claimed they are running out of basic foodstuffs.

“Imports, exports, factories, firms, transport – everything is frozen,” Vasilis Korkidis, head of the national Confederation of Hellenic Commerce, told the Guardian.

Like medicine, much of Greece’s food is imported but with the banks no longer able to transfer cash, companies have been left unable to pay suppliers.

nicklcool
04-07-2015, 14:01
many people are out of their jobs and don't know with what to feed their children, I am not exaggerating one bit.


Greece and Russia should just create a massive food stamp program, like in the USA, that covers almost 20% of all households, then no one will go hungry ;) (20% is not a made up number, my phone doesn't easily allow me to post links but that data is widely reported and easily found)

But since RL and others have brought the 'economic situation in Russia' thread themes over here, you have to wonder: why is Greece's economy in so much trouble? Why couldn't she quantitative ease or borrow her way out of these problems, like USA and others? Why has this crisis brought such immediate harm to Greece, but the sanctions after almost a year have yet to topple the RF? There must be some economic fundamentals that explain all of this... :boxing:

penka
04-07-2015, 16:14
And one could wonder, how come, much of the Greek food is imported.

fenrir
04-07-2015, 16:41
Greece and Russia should just create a massive food stamp program, like in the USA, that covers almost 20% of all households, then no one will go hungry ;) (20% is not a made up number, my phone doesn't easily allow me to post links but that data is widely reported and easily found)

But since RL and others have brought the 'economic situation in Russia' thread themes over here, you have to wonder: why is Greece's economy in so much trouble? Why couldn't she quantitative ease or borrow her way out of these problems, like USA and others? Why has this crisis brought such immediate harm to Greece, but the sanctions after almost a year have yet to topple the RF? There must be some economic fundamentals that explain all of this... :boxing:

QE only works if you have your own currency and start printing money 24/7. Greece is part of the eurozone and has no ability to print, print, print.

And borrowing? Are you kidding? That's what has gotten them into this problem in the first place. Take a look at their debt/GDP ratio and then look at economic/tax base.

The US has an extremely powerful diversified economy that exports heavily, so it can afford to pile up debt as lenders know the US can pay it all off. Asking why sanctions haven't toppled the RF (that is not their goal, btw), the Russian and Greek situations are totally different and not comparable.

Read the following article to get some insight into how Greece slid into financial hell:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3148451/A-island-pretending-blind-benefits-8-500-pensioners-faked-aged-100-lawyers-claim-earn-just-12-000-New-book-reveals-Greeks-cheated-ruin.html

nicklcool
04-07-2015, 17:11
QE only works if you have your own currency and start printing money 24/7. Greece is part of the eurozone and has no ability to print, print, print.

And borrowing? Are you kidding? That's what has gotten them into this problem in the first place. Take a look at their debt/GDP ratio and then look at economic/tax base.


Right on, that's the big question, whether the USA economy is powerful in and of itself or thanks to the reserve currency status it rewarded itself after winning WWII. Bretton Woods was only about 3/4 of a century ago and that's a blink of an eye in a long-term historical perspective.

And yes, borrowing your way out of a crises sounds crazy, but isn't that what the big Western powers are doing with near-zero perent interest rates?? Look at the news; you'll see that for many months the American MSM has been hinting at rate rises, and yet they're still at zero :groan: I guess the trick to economic success is to win a major war and impose your currency on the losers; indeed that's been a strategy for the victors of war for a long time. What would have to happen for the winners of WWII to lose their reserve currency status?



The US has an extremely powerful diversified economy that exports heavily, so it can afford to pile up debt as lenders know the US can pay it all off. Asking why sanctions haven't toppled the RF (that is not their goal, btw), the Russian and Greek situations are totally different and not comparable.

For now the lenders know it, but if I'm investing I'm looking at the long-term ability to re-pay the debts:



Read the following article to get some insight into how Greece slid into financial hell:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3148451/A-island-pretending-blind-benefits-8-500-pensioners-faked-aged-100-lawyers-claim-earn-just-12-000-New-book-reveals-Greeks-cheated-ruin.html

There are many articles about the exact same types of abuses happening in the USA and UK. It's hard to smile while a UK paper gloats about the Greeks deserving their plight, while the USA definitely/UK maybe has the exact same things happening, maybe even on a larger scale :brush:

I guess the overall economic evaluation is that Greece is failing because "the powers that be" don't think she can repay her debts & quit lending money, while the UK USA and rest of the West can borrow like a glutton at an all-you-can-eat bar, because they were the ones who won WWII. And the West assumes Russia is headed for economic irrelevancy because fossil fuels cannot dominate forever, even though for the past fifty years every alternative energy source proposed has failed once the government subsidies ended :10310:
There are alot of assumptions you must make to claim that the USA is on solid ground economically and the RF is teetering; who knows whose assumptions are correct but if Greece is an example of what happens when you over borrow over spend and over expand welfare benefits, well, that's exactly what the USA France UK and other nations of the West are doing :smokin:

fenrir
04-07-2015, 17:26
Right on, that's the big question, whether the USA economy is powerful in and of itself or thanks to the reserve currency status it rewarded itself after winning WWII. Bretton Woods was only about 3/4 of a century ago and that's a blink of an eye in a long-term historical perspective.

And yes, borrowing your way out of a crises sounds crazy, but isn't that what the big Western powers are doing with near-zero perent interest rates?? Look at the news; you'll see that for many months the American MSM has been hinting at rate rises, and yet they're still at zero :groan: I guess the trick to economic success is to win a major war and impose your currency on the losers; indeed that's been a strategy for the victors of war for a long time. What would have to happen for the winners of WWII to lose their reserve currency status?


For now the lenders know it, but if I'm investing I'm looking at the long-term ability to re-pay the debts:



There are many articles about the exact same types of abuses happening in the USA and UK. It's hard to smile while a UK paper gloats about the Greeks deserving their plight, while the USA definitely/UK maybe has the exact same things happening, maybe even on a larger scale :brush:

I guess the overall economic evaluation is that Greece is failing because "the powers that be" don't think she can repay her debts & quit lending money, while the UK USA and rest of the West can borrow like a glutton at an all-you-can-eat bar, because they were the ones who won WWII. And the West assumes Russia is headed for economic irrelevancy because fossil fuels cannot dominate forever, even though for the past fifty years every alternative energy source proposed has failed once the government subsidies ended :10310:
There are alot of assumptions you must make to claim that the USA is on solid ground economically and the RF is teetering; who knows whose assumptions are correct but if Greece is an example of what happens when you over borrow over spend and over expand welfare benefits, well, that's exactly what the USA France UK and other nations of the West are doing :smokin:

You can say whatever you want about the US economy, but the US isn't having a referendum tomorrow on what to do about a colossal bailout nor is it facing financial oblivion this week. And if you think Greece can pay back the hundreds of billions it owes, tell me how because no one else seems to know at the moment.

Regarding what the US did after WW II (We didn't occupy half a continent like the Soviets did), remember the Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules. The Soviets used tanks, we used dollars.

Nobbynumbnuts
04-07-2015, 18:18
Right on, that's the big question, whether the USA economy is powerful in and of itself or thanks to the reserve currency status it rewarded itself after winning WWII. Bretton Woods was only about 3/4 of a century ago and that's a blink of an eye in a long-term historical perspective.

And yes, borrowing your way out of a crises sounds crazy, but isn't that what the big Western powers are doing with near-zero perent interest rates?? Look at the news; you'll see that for many months the American MSM has been hinting at rate rises, and yet they're still at zero :groan: I guess the trick to economic success is to win a major war and impose your currency on the losers; indeed that's been a strategy for the victors of war for a long time. What would have to happen for the winners of WWII to lose their reserve currency status?


For now the lenders know it, but if I'm investing I'm looking at the long-term ability to re-pay the debts:



There are many articles about the exact same types of abuses happening in the USA and UK. It's hard to smile while a UK paper gloats about the Greeks deserving their plight, while the USA definitely/UK maybe has the exact same things happening, maybe even on a larger scale :brush:

I guess the overall economic evaluation is that Greece is failing because "the powers that be" don't think she can repay her debts & quit lending money, while the UK USA and rest of the West can borrow like a glutton at an all-you-can-eat bar, because they were the ones who won WWII. And the West assumes Russia is headed for economic irrelevancy because fossil fuels cannot dominate forever, even though for the past fifty years every alternative energy source proposed has failed once the government subsidies ended :10310:
There are alot of assumptions you must make to claim that the USA is on solid ground economically and the RF is teetering; who knows whose assumptions are correct but if Greece is an example of what happens when you over borrow over spend and over expand welfare benefits, well, that's exactly what the USA France UK and other nations of the West are doing :smokin:

The key to economic success is to produce good, reliable products or services that people want at reasonable prices. A people with a worth ethic and good financial governance.

Germany and Japan both lost the war, the Swiss haven't been in one for centuries....

The Greeks must shoulder a lot of the blame for the mess they find themselves in.

jooz
04-07-2015, 19:53
I guess the overall economic evaluation is that Greece is failing because "the powers that be" don't think she can repay her debts & quit lending money, while the UK USA and rest of the West can borrow like a glutton at an all-you-can-eat bar, because they were the ones who won WWII.

this part in particular made me laugh water out my nose

:applause:

vossy7
04-07-2015, 20:18
this part in particular made me laugh water out my nose

:applause:

I guess your periods again :soccer:

jooz
04-07-2015, 21:04
I guess your periods again :soccer:

why are the irish so filthy always thinking about this stuff? :nut:

Uncle Wally
05-07-2015, 01:19
why are the irish so filthy always thinking about this stuff? :nut:



Why hasn't your racist ass been banned yet?

jooz
05-07-2015, 01:39
Why hasn't your racist ass been banned yet?

because you're the racist :twofaced:

I'm not racist, I just don't like black dudes kissing white girls, it's gross. Do you want your daughter dating a black guy?

Uncle Wally
05-07-2015, 01:45
The key to economic success is to produce good, reliable products or services that people want at reasonable prices. A people with a worth ethic and good financial governance.

Germany and Japan both lost the war, the Swiss haven't been in one for centuries....

The Greeks must shoulder a lot of the blame for the mess they find themselves in.




Oh yeah right! Like you know the truth about the US financial situation. Oh yeah we'll raise interest rates ( not ) the US debt has been frozen ( how? ) it's stuck at 18 trillion dollars because it got to the debt ceiling so quick. If they raised rates the US would be buried in debt they could never repay which begs the question, why does the US government have to pay interest in the first place? Same goes for Greece. If the US Constitution gave the government the right to coin and regulate money why would they give that right to private bankers and then go into perpetual debt and devaluation? Can you say "stupid", insane, criminal? We are heading to either a world war or a new revolution take your pick.


Can any of you British folk explain to me why your queen and her family need to be given so many millions of pounds and the old or crippled need to receive cuts to their benefits? What do the British royalty do?

jooz
05-07-2015, 02:30
Putin and obama are actually doing fine: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/04/putin-reportedly-contacts-obama-for-second-time-in-weeks-about-unity-on-global/

Chinese stock plunge: http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2015/07/03/world-stocks-drift-lower-ahead-greek-vote-chinese-stocks-plunge-as-support/

When Greek exits the EU, there will be two Gorillas standing, Putin's Russia and obama's america... the Chinese and the EU are F**KED :12115:

some people called me crazy, but continue to watch the subtle manipulation by these two countries over the entire rest of the world.

nicklcool
05-07-2015, 02:46
this part in particular made me laugh water out my nose

:applause:

Well jooz why is the dollar THE reserve currency for the world? What is your hypothesis? It has nothing to do with your snotty nose and please go get a towel and clean yourself up before returning to the forum. :redcard:

jooz
05-07-2015, 02:50
Well jooz why is the dollar THE reserve currency for the world? What is your hypothesis? It has nothing to do with your snotty nose and please go get a towel and clean yourself up before returning to the forum. :redcard:

shut up american ***** the dollar isn't going to be around much longer. Also please read the forum rules on personal attacks. :bookworm:

nicklcool
05-07-2015, 03:00
shut up american ***** the dollar isn't going to be around much longer. Also please read the forum rules on personal attacks. :bookworm:

Show me the personal attack....when I sneeze I need a tissue, if you can't take heated metaphors why are you playing in the sandbox?? There are other less heated boards in this forum. :11088:


But if I may use your rhetoric may I say that after reading your post I have a strong urge to drop a deuce...


If you agree with me and others that the American economy has weak fundamentals than what in my OP made you prematurely squirt [water out of your nose]? :fudd:

jooz
05-07-2015, 03:02
Show me the personal attack....when I sneeze I need a tissue, if you can't take heated metaphors why are you playing in the sandbox?? There are other less heated boards in this forum. :11088:


But if I may use your rhetoric may I say that after reading your post I have a strong urge to drop a deuce...


If you agree with me and others that the American economy has weak fundamentals than what in my OP made you prematurely squirt [water out of your nose]? :fudd:

you yourself said america has weak fundamentals. :applause:

americans really cannot keep their lies straight.

Uncle Wally
05-07-2015, 03:50
Well jooz why is the dollar THE reserve currency for the world? What is your hypothesis? It has nothing to do with your snotty nose and please go get a towel and clean yourself up before returning to the forum. :redcard:



I know that one! Because America has more bombs and is willing to use them if you don't get on the dollar scam. I mean petro dollar, just ask Saddam Hussein and Gaddafi. Oh wait a minute they're dead aren't they.

Uncle Wally
05-07-2015, 21:18
Seems like "No" is going to win.


60% No

40% Yes

nicklcool
06-07-2015, 00:43
Seems like "No" is going to win.


60% No

40% Yes


Greece voted no.


Just like Ben Franklin said, once the people of Greece figured out that they could vote themselves money, that heralded the end of their republic.

I wonder if the pensioners who retired before fifty will feel bad for the Greecebthat they have left for their grandchildren.

There was a freat article about Thatcher and the EU, how she foresaw so much of this (stronger countries subsidizing the weaker and lazier ones) and therefore did not allow for the UK to give up its currency

And for those who think USA is on stronger footing, please note that more than fifty percent of the country's citizens pays no federal income tax!

mr krinkle
06-07-2015, 01:40
Greece voted no.


Just like Ben Franklin said, once the people of Greece figured out that they could vote themselves money, that heralded the end of their republic.

I wonder if the pensioners who retired before fifty will feel bad for the Greecebthat they have left for their grandchildren.

There was a freat article about Thatcher and the EU, how she foresaw so much of this (stronger countries subsidizing the weaker and lazier ones) and therefore did not allow for the UK to give up its currency

And for those who think USA is on stronger footing, please note that more than fifty percent of the country's citizens pays no federal income tax!
Dont be giving Thatcher credit for not entering the euro...!Thatcher was ousted in 1990,the euro wasnt introduced until 1999....

nicklcool
06-07-2015, 02:02
Dont be giving Thatcher credit for not entering the euro...!Thatcher was ousted in 1990,the euro wasnt introduced until 1999....


She's credited here with having the foresight (http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/greenberg070215.php3), but since you say she was 'ousted', I take it you were not a fan of her policies?

MashaSashina
06-07-2015, 03:21
And for those who think USA is on stronger footing, please note that more than fifty percent of the country's citizens pays no federal income tax!
Could you please elaborate, what is that supposed to mean?

Fantastika
06-07-2015, 03:27
Could you please elaborate, what is that supposed to mean?

People who take from the system have little interest in reforming the system. When the majority of people (+50%) can vote themselves "free money," that is why we have so much debt. The tipping point has come...

See Nick's earlier comment about "Just like Ben Franklin said, once the people of Greece figured out that they could vote themselves money, that heralded the end of their republic."

Or look at Puerto Rico - they pay NO federal income tax, and they are about to to bankrupt. And followed by Ukraine - feeding for years off Russia, now no one is paying their welfare.

MashaSashina
06-07-2015, 03:37
People who take from the system have little interest in reforming the system. When the majority of people (+50%) can vote themselves "free money," that is why we have so much debt. The tipping point has come...

See Nick's earlier comment about "Just like Ben Franklin said, once the people of Greece figured out that they could vote themselves money, that heralded the end of their republic."

Or look at Puerto Rico - they pay NO federal income tax, and they are about to to bankrupt. And followed by Ukraine - feeding for years off Russia, now no one is paying their welfare.
That I could understand, I just can't believe 50% Americans don't have income. Is that what was behind that statement? Or what's the reason they don't pay income tax?

nicklcool
06-07-2015, 04:00
That I could understand, I just can't believe 50% Americans don't have income. Is that what was behind that statement? Or what's the reason they don't pay income tax?

I can't readily find the best links, but yes, this is easily Googleable....Anerica has reached the breaking point where greater than 50% of Americans have no "skin in the game." It is ROFLMFAO funny but yes Masha, the Progressives have succeeded so well at exploiting tax loopholes that their constituents can have negative tax rates: getting more back in a tax refund than they even paid in taxes.


This is part of the reason for my analysis that the USA economy is headed for doom: at some point in this beautiful country, the Progressives convinced the populace that America is the land of equal outcomes, not equal opportunity :/

Fantastika
06-07-2015, 05:02
That I could understand, I just can't believe 50% Americans don't have income. Is that what was behind that statement? Or what's the reason they don't pay income tax?

You can work for a few days during the year and get $7000 from the IRS as "Earned Income Credit" in April. People think they are gaming the system, but they are just setting themselves up for a lifetime of failure, welfare addicts, and they blame their problems on the "rich people" (i.e, hard-working, or successful, people, who pay confiscatory tax rates).

The Chinese waitress I know, pulls in $100 in tips every day, reports it as $25, pays no federal tax.

Illegal immigrants pay no tax, and any investigations are stymied because of "discrimination" and "racism" accusations.

Look at Ukraine, they are so used to getting "free" gas and heating, now the economic reality sets in, and the government will go to war, blaming everyone but themselves, rather than confront reality. Same with Greece and Puerto Rico. And thrashing around like a 900-pound gorilla in the room, the mega-dinosaur of all incipient bankruptcies, the USA.

Uncle Wally
07-07-2015, 03:36
They closed the bank to instill fear and to instill fear is terrorism so what are they doing?


Nuland will be passing out cookies soon and the blood bath begins. Watch for military coup.

TolkoRaz
07-07-2015, 22:50
What does a Greek say on payday?



Dankeschön! :D

Uncle Wally
07-07-2015, 23:17
What does a Greek say on payday?



Dankeschön! :D


You should read Confessions of an Economic Hit man.

penka
07-07-2015, 23:45
You can work for a few days during the year and get $7000 from the IRS as "Earned Income Credit" in April. People think they are gaming the system, but they are just setting themselves up for a lifetime of failure, welfare addicts, and they blame their problems on the "rich people" (i.e, hard-working, or successful, people, who pay confiscatory tax rates).

The Chinese waitress I know, pulls in $100 in tips every day, reports it as $25, pays no federal tax.

Illegal immigrants pay no tax, and any investigations are stymied because of "discrimination" and "racism" accusations.

Look at Ukraine, they are so used to getting "free" gas and heating, now the economic reality sets in, and the government will go to war, blaming everyone but themselves, rather than confront reality. Same with Greece and Puerto Rico. And thrashing around like a 900-pound gorilla in the room, the mega-dinosaur of all incipient bankruptcies, the USA.

That's what the Greeks have been doing since the Osmanian rule...
And the majority of business owners of foreign extract do in Sweden - cash only; declare 50% of real income. Though, many say, otherwise the business would not be profitable enough.

Nobbynumbnuts
10-07-2015, 00:31
..so it looks like the Greeks have finally caved.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/09/greece-debt-crisis-athens-accepts-harsh-austerity-as-bailout-deal-nears

Uncle Wally
10-07-2015, 01:01
..so it looks like the Greeks have finally caved.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/09/greece-debt-crisis-athens-accepts-harsh-austerity-as-bailout-deal-nears



You think it's a good thing when a few politicians go against the majority? You really are a numbnuts aren't you.

Uncle Wally
10-07-2015, 10:49
..so it looks like the Greeks have finally caved.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/09/greece-debt-crisis-athens-accepts-harsh-austerity-as-bailout-deal-nears



I see you do not like democracy. You prefer dictatorship and economic terrorism. Sad very sad.

Nobbynumbnuts
10-07-2015, 20:05
..and Eurozone finance ministers are poised to offer their tentative backing for the Greek bailout proposals.

Looks like the Grexit crisis could be coming to a close.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/10/eurozone-crisis-greek-austerity-plans-response

penka
10-07-2015, 20:58
..so it looks like the Greeks have finally caved.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/09/greece-debt-crisis-athens-accepts-harsh-austerity-as-bailout-deal-nears

Did you have any doubts on the subject?;)

However, this agreement in the making might have serious implications both Greece and the rest of EU.

Nobbynumbnuts
10-07-2015, 21:46
Did you have any doubts on the subject?;)

However, this agreement in the making might have serious implications both Greece and the rest of EU.

No, i didn't really have any doubts.

Interestingly, the question put to the Greek people last weekend was not 'yes' or 'no' to austerity but 'do you agree with the bailout conditions proposed by the EU'? The Greeks voted 'no' which strengthened the governments hand. They went back to the EU, rejected the terms (as per the wishes of the people) and got themselves a better deal. Which included debt write offs (again)

The Greeks didn't want to leave the EU (previous referendum result) and not reaching a deal would have meant just that.

The Greek government negotiated long and very hard and got the best deal they could. And, couldn't have been more democratic result...;)

I should also add that this agreement is for 3 years so we'll all be back here again in 2018. Should Greece stick to it, will probably mean more debt write offs for Greece (yet again) so those who think that Greece will pay all the money back are going to be disappointed.

penka
10-07-2015, 22:24
No, i didn't really have any doubts.

Interestingly, the question put to the Greek people last weekend was not 'yes' or 'no' to austerity but 'do you agree with the bailout conditions proposed by the EU'? The Greeks voted 'no' which strengthened the governments hand. They went back to the EU, rejected the terms (as per the wishes of the people) and got themselves a better deal. Which included debt write offs (again)

The Greeks didn't want to leave the EU (previous referendum result) and not reaching a deal would have meant just that.

The Greek government negotiated long and very hard and got the best deal they could. And, couldn't have been more democratic result...;)

I should also add that this agreement is for 3 years so we'll all be back here again in 2018. Should Greece stick to it, will probably mean more debt write offs for Greece (yet again) so those who think that Greece will pay all the money back are going to be disappointed.

All true. "Democracy" ditto. Not sure, if poor sods actually understood what they were voting for...

Greece had been getting blns before, if you recall.

What did Greece have? Tourism and agriculture, no? The latter is not in the good shape, to say the least. Fishing business ditto, not least for the Euroregulations.

Part of the agreement is raising taxes on business. But Greeks were not very eager tax payers before. Will they become now, all of a sudden? Raised VAT. Will it touch the hospitality and restaurant business? Maybe, all of a sudden your Greek holiday will become an expensive affair.
Isles will be exempt from the tax liberties. Austerity measures for the pensioners. Etcetera.
Not to forget hordes of illegal migrants.

How many businesses will go bankrupt? How many will lose jobs? How many will immigrate? And where? To the stiff upper lip island, maybe?;)

Give it a few years. And then what? Business climate will turn brilliant? The state fiscal system will flourish? Yeah, right. Like you say, they wont be able to pay back. And heck knows, what else will happen here and there during this time.
I don't feel excessively optimistic, somehow.

Uncle Wally
10-07-2015, 23:15
Democracy? I don't think numbnuts actually understands what democracy is. Democracy is when 51% of people tell the other 49 what to do. If numbnuts thinks that what happened in Greece is democracy he must have missed something. Greeks vote one way, the finance minister is forced to quit, the Greek government does the opposite of what the Greek people wanted. Numbnuts calls that "democracy". He also talks about Greece getting kicked out of the European Union which would be next to impossible, dropping the EU currency is a different story. I don't think this is over, I think the people will want to be heard.

Nobbynumbnuts
11-07-2015, 00:40
All true. "Democracy" ditto. Not sure, if poor sods actually understood what they were voting for...

Greece had been getting blns before, if you recall.

What did Greece have? Tourism and agriculture, no? The latter is not in the good shape, to say the least. Fishing business ditto, not least for the Euroregulations.

Part of the agreement is raising taxes on business. But Greeks were not very eager tax payers before. Will they become now, all of a sudden? Raised VAT. Will it touch the hospitality and restaurant business? Maybe, all of a sudden your Greek holiday will become an expensive affair.
Isles will be exempt from the tax liberties. Austerity measures for the pensioners. Etcetera.
Not to forget hordes of illegal migrants.

How many businesses will go bankrupt? How many will lose jobs? How many will immigrate? And where? To the stiff upper lip island, maybe?;)

Give it a few years. And then what? Business climate will turn brilliant? The state fiscal system will flourish? Yeah, right. Like you say, they wont be able to pay back. And heck knows, what else will happen here and there during this time.
I don't feel excessively optimistic, somehow.

I agree penka, not sure the Greeks fully understood the question put to them but it was cleverly handled by the government. By getting a 'no' vote to the terms being offered by the EU, the government now had a clear mandate to reject them.

Of course, the Greeks could have simply refused to any more austerity and defaulted but that is not a route without considerable pain and consequences either. Further more the Greeks voted to stay in the Euro, default would almost certainly mean expulsion.

Got to also agree as well that there's plenty more pain ahead but another point worth considering is, should they have simply defaulted there would not be any incentive for them go on to make the necessary changes. Changes that are crucial, restructuring and proper financial management that will enable them to function as a modern state. Without the austerity they would be doomed continue as a failed state.
As we've seen, if Greece keeps to the terms of the agreement and makes the recommended changes they will be rewarded with further write downs and restructuring of their debt. Overtime i expect the debt to be written off. It has been already for all intense and purposes..

Uncle Wally
11-07-2015, 00:44
I agree penka, not sure the Greeks fully understood the question put to them but it was cleverly handled by the government. By getting a 'no' vote to the terms being offered by the EU, the government now had a clear mandate to reject them.

Of course, the Greeks could have simply refused to any more austerity and defaulted but that is not a route without considerable pain and consequences either. Further more the Greeks voted to stay in the Euro, default would almost certainly mean expulsion.

Got to also agree as well that there's plenty more pain ahead but another point worth considering is, should they have simply defaulted there would not be any incentive for them go on to make the necessary changes. Changes that are crucial, restructuring and proper financial management that will enable them to function as a modern state. Without the austerity they would be doomed continue as a failed state.
As we've seen, if Greece keeps to the terms of the agreement and makes the recommended changes they will be rewarded with further write downs and restructuring of their debt. Overtime i expect the debt to be written off. It has been already for all intense and purposes..



They will also be rewarded with more suicides, less jobs and the sale of assets.

Uncle Wally
13-07-2015, 03:24
Looks like the plundering of Greece may go into full swing. Demands of the terrorist bankers include selling energy companies, sea ports and other choice goodies.

annasophia
13-07-2015, 13:27
It seems that the EU/Greece have reached an 'agreement'.

Just released pdf. Looks ugly to me.

www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2015/07/pdf/20150712-eurosummit-statement-greece/

From page 4:

"• to develop a significantly scaled up privatisation programme with improved governance;
valuable Greek assets will be transferred to an independent fund that will monetize the assets through privatisations and other means. The monetization of the assets will be one source to make the scheduled repayment of the new loan of ESM and generate over the life of the new loan a targeted total of EUR 50bn of which EUR 25bn will be used for the repayment of recapitalization of banks and other assets and 50 % of every remaining euro (i.e. 50% of EUR 25bn) will be used for decreasing the debt to GDP ratio and the remaining 50 % will be used for investments."


No wonder Varufakis resigned.

Uncle Wally
13-07-2015, 13:38
It seems that the EU/Greece have reached an 'agreement'.

Just released pdf. Looks ugly to me.

www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2015/07/pdf/20150712-eurosummit-statement-greece/

From page 4:

"• to develop a significantly scaled up privatisation programme with improved governance;
valuable Greek assets will be transferred to an independent fund that will monetize the assets through privatisations and other means. The monetization of the assets will be one source to make the scheduled repayment of the new loan of ESM and generate over the life of the new loan a targeted total of EUR 50bn of which EUR 25bn will be used for the repayment of recapitalization of banks and other assets and 50 % of every remaining euro (i.e. 50% of EUR 25bn) will be used for decreasing the debt to GDP ratio and the remaining 50 % will be used for investments."


No wonder Varufakis resigned.





Robbery that's what it is.

annasophia
13-07-2015, 13:48
Worse. Using hyperbole here, Tsiprias makes Boris Yeltsin look like an angel.

Tsiprias just sold the Greeks to the fkucing bankers.

Uncle Wally
13-07-2015, 14:00
Worse. Using hyperbole here, Tsiprias makes Boris Yeltsin look like an angel.

Tsiprias just sold the Greeks to the fkucing bankers.



Yes him and the last few guys in charge there. They took on loans that they knew could not be repaid so the banks could come in and buy up Greece for pennies. I wonder what he's getting out of all this? It better be good because I think people in Greece will soon be marching to his house with pitchforks and torches.


What about this Goldman Sachs? Weren't they the ones who made all these loans possible by hiding the truth about Greece's finance? I guess they're the ones who will get to buy up the best pieces of the Greek carcass.

Nobbynumbnuts
13-07-2015, 14:02
It seems that the EU/Greece have reached an 'agreement'.

Just released pdf. Looks ugly to me.

www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2015/07/pdf/20150712-eurosummit-statement-greece/

From page 4:

"• to develop a significantly scaled up privatisation programme with improved governance;
valuable Greek assets will be transferred to an independent fund that will monetize the assets through privatisations and other means. The monetization of the assets will be one source to make the scheduled repayment of the new loan of ESM and generate over the life of the new loan a targeted total of EUR 50bn of which EUR 25bn will be used for the repayment of recapitalization of banks and other assets and 50 % of every remaining euro (i.e. 50% of EUR 25bn) will be used for decreasing the debt to GDP ratio and the remaining 50 % will be used for investments."


No wonder Varufakis resigned.

Yeah, it's not pretty but preferable for the Greeks than a Grexit.

Keep in mind that most western countries privatized state companies decades ago, including their utility companies and ports etc.

Uncle Wally
13-07-2015, 14:04
Yeah, it's not pretty but preferable for the Greeks than a Grexit.

Keep in mind that most western countries privatized state companies decades ago, including their utility companies and ports etc.



Please keep in mind that is why all western countries are in debt up to their eyeballs. Getting out of the EU would be the best thing for Greece.

Judge
13-07-2015, 14:05
What about this Goldman Sachs? Weren't they the ones who made all these loans possible by hiding the truth about Greece's finance?

There is talk of Greece suing GS,
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-debt-crisis-goldman-sachs-could-be-sued-for-helping-country-hide-debts-when-it-joined-euro-10381926.html

Uncle Wally
13-07-2015, 14:07
There is talk of Greece suing GS,
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-debt-crisis-goldman-sachs-could-be-sued-for-helping-country-hide-debts-when-it-joined-euro-10381926.html



Well they should but lets see how far they get.

Nobbynumbnuts
13-07-2015, 14:10
There is talk of Greece suing GS,
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-debt-crisis-goldman-sachs-could-be-sued-for-helping-country-hide-debts-when-it-joined-euro-10381926.html

Was reading this during the week. Problem for Greece is the they have to prove that Goldman's knowingly or didn't use proper due diligence when setting up the swaps to finance Greece's entry into the Euro. Will probably be tied up in the courts for years..

Uncle Wally
14-07-2015, 04:37
Was reading this during the week. Problem for Greece is the they have to prove that Goldman's knowingly or didn't use proper due diligence when setting up the swaps to finance Greece's entry into the Euro. Will probably be tied up in the courts for years..



You know damn well they broke the rules but you don't really care do you? You don't care that the Greek people have been cheated, that for years now they have been killing themselves because they have lost everything do to greedy bankers.

Judge
14-07-2015, 07:44
Was reading this during the week. Problem for Greece is the they have to prove that Goldman's knowingly or didn't use proper due diligence when setting up the swaps to finance Greece's entry into the Euro. Will probably be tied up in the courts for years..

A lawyers dream, the Greeks won't have much of a chance suing let alone winning ,when the likes of Mario Draghi,President of the ECB was once vice chairman and managing director of Goldman Sachs ,and many other influential people in high places worked for GS.

Some have tried to gain access to the files into the shady dealings of GS and Greece,but ,


The ECB's response: "the European Central Bank said it can’t release files showing how Greece may have used derivatives to hide its borrowings because disclosure could still inflame the crisis threatening the future of the single currency."

How very convenient for GS to have one of their own running the ECB.


Bloomberg sued the ECB under Freedom of Information rules requesting "access to two internal papers drafted for the central bank’s six-member Executive Board. They show how Greece used swaps to hide its borrowings, according to a March 3, 2010, note attached to the papers and obtained by Bloomberg News. The first document is entitled “The impact on government deficit and debt from off-market swaps: the Greek case.” The second reviews Titlos Plc, a securitization that allowed National Bank of Greece SA, the country’s biggest lender, to exchange swaps on Greek government debt for funding from the ECB, the Executive Board said in the cover note. The ECB's response: "The European Central Bank said it can’t release files showing how Greece may have used derivatives to hide its borrowings because disclosure could still inflame the crisis threatening the future of the single currency."

Judge
14-07-2015, 08:20
You know damn well they broke the rules but you don't really care do you? You don't care that the Greek people have been cheated, that for years now they have been killing themselves because they have lost everything do to greedy bankers.

Why should he really care, the ones who should care are the elected leaders, elected by the Greeks, what was the point of last week's referendum, they voted no austerity and now they do a deal for more austerity, and even have to put up 50bn worth of state assets .

Nobbynumbnuts
14-07-2015, 11:36
A lawyers dream, the Greeks won't have much of a chance suing let alone winning ,when the likes of Mario Draghi,President of the ECB was once vice chairman and managing director of Goldman Sachs ,and many other influential people in high places worked for GS.

Some have tried to gain access to the files into the shady dealings of GS and Greece,but ,



How very convenient for GS to have one of their own running the ECB.

The Greeks knew what was going on. They knew they had difficulty meeting all the requirements to gain entry to the Euro. They were compliant in the scam with Goldman's.
Sure, Goldman's should be prosecuted for their part but then so should Greece..

Nobbynumbnuts
14-07-2015, 11:47
Why should he really care, the ones who should care are the elected leaders, elected by the Greeks, what was the point of last week's referendum, they voted no austerity and now they do a deal for more austerity, and even have to put up 50bn worth of state assets .


They didn't vote 'no' to austerity. They voted 'no' to the deal on the table from the EU. The vote was worded such: 'Do you agree to the terms of the current deal by the EU' (words to that effect) It was not a vote on austerity, per se.

Tsipras, then rejected the offer. Another deal was struck after marathon talks which included a huge increase in bailout funds. 7 billion was in the original deal this was increased to 80 billion. Yes, a 72 billion increase. There were stipulations included that must begin immediately (tomorrow)

And as i already mentioned, selling off state assets were completed by most countries decades ago. What hasn't the electricity company and ports not already passed into private hands to help reduce debt? Bungling and inefficient government or it was a nice little earner for government ministers? Corruption is a major problem in Greece.

By having the EU effectively taking control of parts of Greece's financial management (asset fund, dictating taxes and other reforms) is a God send for the Greeks. They will never complete these reforms themselves and they are essential.

To say the deal agreed was worse than the one originally on the table is misleading....

Nobbynumbnuts
14-07-2015, 12:48
...excellent read. The Greeks are criminally insane.

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010

My favorite clips:

“The way they were keeping track of their finances—they knew how much they had agreed to spend, but no one was keeping track of what he had actually spent. It wasn’t even what you would call an emerging economy. It was a Third World country.”

The average government job pays almost three times the average private-sector job. The national railroad has annual revenues of 100 million euros against an annual wage bill of 400 million, plus 300 million euros in other expenses. The average state railroad employee earns 65,000 euros a year. Twenty years ago a successful businessman turned minister of finance named Stefanos Manos pointed out that it would be cheaper to put all Greece’s rail passengers into taxicabs: it’s still true. “We have a railroad company which is bankrupt beyond comprehension,” Manos put it to me. “And yet there isn’t a single private company in Greece with that kind of average pay.”

The Greek public-school system is the site of breathtaking inefficiency: one of the lowest-ranked systems in Europe, it nonetheless employs four times as many teachers per pupil as the highest-ranked, Finland’s.

There are three government-owned defense companies: together they have billions of euros in debts, and mounting losses.

The retirement age for Greek jobs classified as “arduous” is as early as 55 for men and 50 for women. As this is also the moment when the state begins to shovel out generous pensions, more than 600 Greek professions somehow managed to get themselves classified as arduous: hairdressers, radio announcers, waiters, musicians, and on and on and on.

Oddly enough, the financiers in Greece remain more or less beyond reproach. They never ceased to be anything but sleepy old commercial bankers. Virtually alone among Europe’s bankers, they did not buy U.S. subprime-backed bonds, or leverage themselves to the hilt, or pay themselves huge sums of money. The biggest problem the banks had was that they had lent roughly 30 billion euros to the Greek government—where it was stolen or squandered. In Greece the banks didn’t sink the country. The country sank the banks....

nicklcool
14-07-2015, 13:10
[QUOTE=Nobbynumbnuts;1424103]...excellent read. The Greeks are criminally insane.

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010
[\QUOTE]

Good luck nobby convincing this crowd of your point. You're dealing with a mindset that thinks "predatory lending" is a realistic concept: Somehow, the bank lends a person moneyto allow him to buya home he himself wants to own, and whe the person can no longer pay the mortgage, the lender, not the borrower, is at fault.

The Greeks wanted to enter the Euro and wanted to unsustainably allow people to retire very early, and the "bankers" arranged ways for this to happen, and now it's the banks' fault :Loco:

Nobbynumbnuts
14-07-2015, 13:29
..This goes beyond bankers..

He just took it for granted that I knew that the only Greeks who paid their taxes were the ones who could not avoid doing so—the salaried employees of corporations, who had their taxes withheld from their paychecks. The vast economy of self-employed workers—everyone from doctors to the guys who ran the kiosks that sold the International Herald Tribune—cheated (one big reason why Greece has the highest percentage of self-employed workers of any European country). “It’s become a cultural trait,” he said. “The Greek people never learned to pay their taxes. And they never did because no one is punished. No one has ever been punished. It’s a cavalier offense—like a gentleman not opening a door for a lady.”

The scale of Greek tax cheating was at least as incredible as its scope: an estimated two-thirds of Greek doctors reported incomes under 12,000 euros a year—which meant, because incomes below that amount weren’t taxable, that even plastic surgeons making millions a year paid no tax at all. The problem wasn’t the law—there was a law on the books that made it a jailable offense to cheat the government out of more than 150,000 euros—but its enforcement. “If the law was enforced,” the tax collector said, “every doctor in Greece would be in jail.” I laughed, and he gave me a stare. “I am completely serious.” One reason no one is ever prosecuted—apart from the fact that prosecution would seem arbitrary, as everyone is doing it—is that the Greek courts take up to 15 years to resolve tax cases. “The one who does not want to pay, and who gets caught, just goes to court,” he says. Somewhere between 30 and 40 percent of the activity in the Greek economy that might be subject to the income tax goes officially unrecorded, he says, compared with an average of about 18 percent in the rest of Europe.

The easiest way to cheat on one’s taxes was to insist on being paid in cash, and fail to provide a receipt for services. The easiest way to launder cash was to buy real estate. Conveniently for the black market—and alone among European countries—Greece has no working national land registry. “You have to know where the guy bought the land—the address—to trace it back to him,” says the collector. “And even then it’s all handwritten and hard to decipher.” But, I say, if some plastic surgeon takes a million in cash, buys a plot on a Greek island, and builds himself a villa, there would be other records—say, building permits. “The people who give the building permits don’t inform the Treasury,” says the tax collector. In the apparently not-so-rare cases where the tax cheat gets caught, he can simply bribe the tax collector and be done with it. There are, of course, laws against tax collectors’ accepting bribes, explained the collector, “but if you get caught, it can take seven or eight years to get prosecuted. So in practice no one bothers.”

Uncle Wally
14-07-2015, 13:32
[QUOTE=Nobbynumbnuts;1424103]...excellent read. The Greeks are criminally insane.

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010
[\QUOTE]

Good luck nobby convincing this crowd of your point. You're dealing with a mindset that thinks "predatory lending" is a realistic concept: Somehow, the bank lends a person moneyto allow him to buya home he himself wants to own, and whe the person can no longer pay the mortgage, the lender, not the borrower, is at fault.

The Greeks wanted to enter the Euro and wanted to unsustainably allow people to retire very early, and the "bankers" arranged ways for this to happen, and now it's the banks' fault :Loco:



When the bank who ok'd the loans package them and sell them off as good loans then those loans fail in mass what would you call that? And why wouldn't the banks be responsible? You think tax payers should pay for those loans?

Please read the book " Confessions of an economic hit man".

Uncle Wally
15-07-2015, 01:17
[QUOTE=Nobbynumbnuts;1424103]...excellent read. The Greeks are criminally insane.

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010
[\QUOTE]

Good luck nobby convincing this crowd of your point. You're dealing with a mindset that thinks "predatory lending" is a realistic concept: Somehow, the bank lends a person moneyto allow him to buya home he himself wants to own, and whe the person can no longer pay the mortgage, the lender, not the borrower, is at fault.

The Greeks wanted to enter the Euro and wanted to unsustainably allow people to retire very early, and the "bankers" arranged ways for this to happen, and now it's the banks' fault :Loco:


Please read your last line again slowly. "the bankers arranged ways for this to happen" and then you go on to say it's not the banks fault. You also think that because banks made a bad decision that they should not be held responsible. If you give someone a loan and they don't pay it back you think you can go to the government and make everyone else pay it back to you? What the ECB has done and is doing is blackmail, "pay these private investors or we'll destroy your economy" nice people them bankers.

nicklcool
15-07-2015, 05:58
[QUOTE=nicklcool;1424105]
When the bank who ok'd the loans package them and sell them off as good loans then those loans fail in mass what would you call that? And why wouldn't the banks be responsible? You think tax payers should pay for those loans?
Please read the book " Confessions of an economic hit man".

Uncle Wally, real world example for you, my wife and I bought a condo eighteen months ago, within our means, something we could afford. Our realtor was a nice guy but was trying to convince us of ways we could afford a property for $50 K more. We knew the numbers didn't work, that we'd be stretching ourselves thin, so we went with our analysis of the numbers and bought the property that was within our means. QUESTION: If we'd bought the more expensive property, run into some kind of hardship, fell behind on our payments, and lost the property, whose fault would that have been? The lender? The bank that gave us the mortgage?

# 2 You go into Best Buy to purchase a new laptop, your budget is under $800, the salesboy talks you into buying a top of the line Apple laptop for $1200 AND the useless warranty using the 0% interest Best Buy credit card , you fall behind on your payments and lose the 0% promo rate, your credit takes a hit and you're denied a mortgage. QUESTION: Who is at fault for your predicament? the pimply Best Buy salesjerk who upsold you? The bank that "preyed" on you and offered you an awesome intro APR rate?

# 3 It's the mid 2000s. YOu buy a house for way more than you think you can afford, but everyone involved is so excited - the lender, the realtors, the sellers, hell, even the appraiser. You figure you can sell this home within five years for a huge profit, like people have been doing the past decade or so. 2008 hits and the market tanks. You cannot sell your overpriced home. It's not even worth what you paid for it - you're underwater. QUESTION: Maybe more than one party is at fault here, but think of it like a sliding scale - who holds the most fault for the situation? Who had the most control of stopping or sealing the deal?

I do not have time at the moment to read the book " Confessions of an economic hit man" but I am interested in your point. Can you summarize the gist of the book?

On this banking issue and many of the other issues you raise, Wally, it sounds like your misstep is misunderstanding who holds the APR in situations - "Absolute Personal responsibility." I wish I could say that were my phrase, but I borrowed it from Robin Sharma.

So Wally do you really think the "evil bankers" hold the APR for what is happening in Greece? On what basis do you absolve the Greek people of their APR for the situation? :11721:

Uncle Wally
15-07-2015, 11:58
[QUOTE=Uncle Wally;1424108]

Uncle Wally, real world example for you, my wife and I bought a condo eighteen months ago, within our means, something we could afford. Our realtor was a nice guy but was trying to convince us of ways we could afford a property for $50 K more. We knew the numbers didn't work, that we'd be stretching ourselves thin, so we went with our analysis of the numbers and bought the property that was within our means. QUESTION: If we'd bought the more expensive property, run into some kind of hardship, fell behind on our payments, and lost the property, whose fault would that have been? The lender? The bank that gave us the mortgage?

# 2 You go into Best Buy to purchase a new laptop, your budget is under $800, the salesboy talks you into buying a top of the line Apple laptop for $1200 AND the useless warranty using the 0% interest Best Buy credit card , you fall behind on your payments and lose the 0% promo rate, your credit takes a hit and you're denied a mortgage. QUESTION: Who is at fault for your predicament? the pimply Best Buy salesjerk who upsold you? The bank that "preyed" on you and offered you an awesome intro APR rate?

# 3 It's the mid 2000s. YOu buy a house for way more than you think you can afford, but everyone involved is so excited - the lender, the realtors, the sellers, hell, even the appraiser. You figure you can sell this home within five years for a huge profit, like people have been doing the past decade or so. 2008 hits and the market tanks. You cannot sell your overpriced home. It's not even worth what you paid for it - you're underwater. QUESTION: Maybe more than one party is at fault here, but think of it like a sliding scale - who holds the most fault for the situation? Who had the most control of stopping or sealing the deal?

I do not have time at the moment to read the book " Confessions of an economic hit man" but I am interested in your point. Can you summarize the gist of the book?

On this banking issue and many of the other issues you raise, Wally, it sounds like your misstep is misunderstanding who holds the APR in situations - "Absolute Personal responsibility." I wish I could say that were my phrase, but I borrowed it from Robin Sharma.

So Wally do you really think the "evil bankers" hold the APR for what is happening in Greece? On what basis do you absolve the Greek people of their APR for the situation? :11721:



That is the difference don't you see? "You" bought, a corrupt government official didn't do it for you. There was no kick back, bribery or promise of a job when you left government.

Nobbynumbnuts
15-07-2015, 14:00
As i said, Greece will never pay the debt owed, as everyone knows. First, it's mathematically impossible and secondly the debt will disappear over time with creative accounting from the EU.
Now they need show willing to reform and restructure as per the agreement.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11739985/IMF-stuns-Europe-with-call-for-massive-Greek-debt-relief.html

Uncle Wally
15-07-2015, 16:15
Strikes and protest planned for today in Greece.

Will Greece keep it's sovereignty or become part Germany they can call it Greecemany.

TolkoRaz
15-07-2015, 19:33
New currency about to be printed on Greece-proof paper! ;)

Nobbynumbnuts
15-07-2015, 19:44
New currency about to be printed on Greece-proof paper! ;)

Nice one! lol ;)

penka
15-07-2015, 20:13
The interesting part now will be how much EURO will be affected and how much, in turn national currencies will will strengthen, like GBP, Swedish Krona... And what that will spell for the housing market. Don't think, the governments will let people get away with the cheap loans:)

Judge
15-07-2015, 20:31
Strikes and protest planned for today in Greece.

Will Greece keep it's sovereignty or become part Germany they can call it Greecemany.

Wait for the bankers to get a hold of Greece's gold reserve, they have over a 100 tonnes.

Judge
15-07-2015, 21:52
Russia doing its bit to help the debt stricken Greeks.


The proposal was submitted to President Vladimir Putin by lawmaker Andrei Krutov. According to him, the removal of the embargo will have a positive effect both for Greece and Russia.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/business/20150715/1024659140.html#ixzz3fzIm0G74

Nobbynumbnuts
15-07-2015, 21:56
Russia doing its bit to help the debt stricken Greeks.



Read more: http://sputniknews.com/business/20150715/1024659140.html#ixzz3fzIm0G74


The very nice Mr. Putin will be looking for Greece to vote against EU sanction on Russia in the near future..;)

Judge
15-07-2015, 22:05
The very nice Mr. Putin will be looking for Greece to vote against EU sanction on Russia in the near future..;)

Not really, they just voted to keep the sanctions on and that was with Tsipras visiting twice and numerous phone calls between the two.
I would be surprised if Putin lifted sanctions on Greek goods cos earlier he said, sanctions for all ,won't do any favours for individual countries,but you know how it is with politicians, they often change their minds,maybe Putin is just waiting for the right time, let's see what he does with this proposal ....Of course there is the gas deal to be signed..

Nobbynumbnuts
15-07-2015, 22:17
Not really, they just voted to keep the sanctions on and that was with Tsipras visiting twice and numerous phone calls between the two.
I would be surprised if Putin lifted sanctions on Greek goods cos earlier he said, sanctions for all ,won't do any favours for individual countries,but you know how it is with politicians, they often change their minds,maybe Putin is just waiting for the right time, let's see what he does with this proposal ....Of course there is the gas deal to be signed..

It's in Russia's interest to widen the gaps in the EU for support for the sanctions. I believe there's also talk of a possible Russian military presence in Greece a sometime. Plenty for Russia to play for..
Let's see.

fenrir
15-07-2015, 22:33
. I believe there's also talk of a possible Russian military presence in Greece a sometime. Plenty for Russia to play for..
Let's see.

Impossible as long as Greece is a member of NATO

Nobbynumbnuts
15-07-2015, 22:42
Impossible as long as Greece is a member of NATO

Yes of course that's true, my bad.
I'm sure i was reading something this week about Russia and bases in Greece..........never mind will pop down the grocers and get myself a head of cabbage ;)

Judge
15-07-2015, 22:48
It's in Russia's interest to widen the gaps in the EU for support for the sanctions. I believe there's also talk of a possible Russian military presence in Greece a sometime. Plenty for Russia to play for..
Let's see.

That might become a reality if Russia loses its naval base in Syria. ..wasn't there talk of a base in Cyprus, but this would only happen if Russia loses Tartus,no real need to have two navy bases close together.

Judge
15-07-2015, 22:52
Yes of course that's true, my bad.
I'm sure i was reading something this week about Russia and bases in Greece


Why my bad, is Russia an enemy of NATO now:soccer: Russia just helping out the friendly Greeks, paying good money to hold a few troops on its soil.

penka
15-07-2015, 22:56
Asch, Greek economy is really scre***d, with or without a new loan. Most probably, even worse so, with the loan. And either gold reserve, or some islands, or Parthenon ownership or whatever will have to go.

Judge
15-07-2015, 23:04
Asch, Greek economy is really scre***d, with or without a new loan. Most probably, even worse so, with the loan. And either gold reserve, or some islands, or Parthenon ownership or whatever will have to go.

I read today, the Greeks 2nd bailout , last payment is due 2054, now they might get a 3rd bailout,in debt for a 100 years. .they have already missed 2 payments to the IMF, I believe the ECB is due some money this Monday ,about €4bn.
They wanna give them another bailout so they can keep paying what they owe,The IMF strange that it seems, even say they the Greeks can't pay it back...

Uncle Wally
15-07-2015, 23:06
Impossible as long as Greece is a member of NATO



If you buy an island you can do what you bloody well want can't you. Democracy and capitalism and all.

Uncle Wally
15-07-2015, 23:08
Yes of course that's true, my bad.
I'm sure i was reading something this week about Russia and bases in Greece..........never mind will pop down the grocers and get myself a head of cabbage ;)


Why you already have one growing for a head. Just go get a hair cut and save the clippings

Uncle Wally
15-07-2015, 23:10
I read today, the Greeks 2nd bailout , last payment is due 2054, now they might get a 3rd bailout,in debt for a 100 years. .they have already missed 2 payments to the IMF, I believe the ECB is due some money this Monday ,about €4bn.
They wanna give them another bailout so they can keep paying what they owe,The IMF strange that it seems, even say they the Greeks can't pay it back...



Yes now you see money means nothing.

Nobbynumbnuts
15-07-2015, 23:16
Why my bad, is Russia an enemy of NATO now:soccer: Russia just helping out the friendly Greeks, paying good money to hold a few troops on its soil.

Fenir is right, Russian troops can't be stationed in Greece as long as it's part of NATO. Unless there's some kind of agreement, which i cannot see happening..

Judge
15-07-2015, 23:23
Yes now you see money means nothing.

They missed 2 payments to the IMF and now the IMF is having a go at the Germans and ECB, maybe the Greeks should miss paying the ECB on Monday, let them sweat for their money.
The latest, the EU now wants to give the Greeks €7 bn so they can make payment on their upcoming debt.

The European commission has proposed a €7bn (£4.9bn) emergency loan for Greece
what a joke, give them the money to pay wages and pensions, forget paying Monday's debt, what's the point giving them money when they are giving it straight back to the same bank.



What is the €7bn for?

Greece needs €7bn by Monday 20 July. A total of €4.2bn is due to the European Central Bank and €2bn to the International Monetary Fund to clear arrears. The Greek government also has to fund wages and pensions. The country is broke and the banks are shut.

Madness. ...:floating:

Judge
15-07-2015, 23:28
Fenir is right, Russian troops can't be stationed in Greece as long as it's part of NATO. Unless there's some kind of agreement, which i cannot see happening..

Sure ,an agreement between Russia and Greece. .?why do you think the yanks want the Greece debt deal sorted, the longer it goes on the more chance the Greeks dealing with the Russians.

Nobbynumbnuts
15-07-2015, 23:47
Sure ,an agreement between Russia and Greece. .?why do you think the yanks want the Greece debt deal sorted, the longer it goes on the more chance the Greeks dealing with the Russians.

Which is what I was saying before. A deal between Greece and Russia makes sense for both parties. Difficult for Greece to follow through being in the EU and NATO but they can certainly use it as a bargaining chip.
And not only US pushing for a settlement. Cameron is saying the same..

Judge
15-07-2015, 23:56
Cameron is saying the same..

Who? Does anyone in Europe listen to him anymore;)

Uncle Wally
16-07-2015, 00:49
Which is what I was saying before. A deal between Greece and Russia makes sense for both parties. Difficult for Greece to follow through being in the EU and NATO but they can certainly use it as a bargaining chip.
And not only US pushing for a settlement. Cameron is saying the same..


Cameron also said he doesn't think the UK should have to chip in to bail out Greece because the UK is not part of the Euro. He should just shut up then shouldn't he?

Uncle Wally
16-07-2015, 00:50
Who? Does anyone in Europe listen to him anymore;)



I wouldn't.

Uncle Wally
16-07-2015, 00:51
Impossible as long as Greece is a member of NATO



That can be taken care of ��

Uncle Wally
16-07-2015, 01:00
They missed 2 payments to the IMF and now the IMF is having a go at the Germans and ECB, maybe the Greeks should miss paying the ECB on Monday, let them sweat for their money.
The latest, the EU now wants to give the Greeks €7 bn so they can make payment on their upcoming debt.

what a joke, give them the money to pay wages and pensions, forget paying Monday's debt, what's the point giving them money when they are giving it straight back to the same bank.



Madness. ...:floating:



Their "money" can be made at the push of a button. The EU have their printing presses running at full speed! Even numbnuts says they can just cook the books so what does it matter? We need Hillary and her reset button. Unfortunately the greedy (deleted for Andy's ears) try to make us believe nothing is worth something.

Nobbynumbnuts
16-07-2015, 02:18
Who? Does anyone in Europe listen to him anymore;)

Of course not, we opted out of the Euro, we have a strong currency, we have a growth rate and an unemployment rate that the rest of Europe can only dream about...........but never mind all that, mere detail ;) :p

Nobbynumbnuts
16-07-2015, 02:23
Sure ,an agreement between Russia and Greece. .?why do you think the yanks want the Greece debt deal sorted, the longer it goes on the more chance the Greeks dealing with the Russians.

The Russians are f*cked! They're swapping tanks for bananas!...:D

Uncle Wally
16-07-2015, 08:58
Seems 12,000 people in Greece decided to show how they felt about the new bail out.

penka
16-07-2015, 09:06
Greek gov said "yes" to the bailout package: http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/15/news/economy/greece-bailout-vote-parliament/index.html?iid=hp-toplead-intl

Judge
16-07-2015, 09:12
The Russians are f*cked! They're swapping tanks for bananas!...:D

Nothing wrong with good old fashioned bartering.

Uncle Wally
16-07-2015, 10:23
Nothing wrong with good old fashioned bartering.



What is he talking about? Has he been in the vanilla extract again?

Nobbynumbnuts
16-07-2015, 10:30
Nothing wrong with good old fashioned bartering.

Agreed. Russia is going backwards! :p

Nobbynumbnuts
16-07-2015, 10:35
Greek gov said "yes" to the bailout package: http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/15/news/economy/greece-bailout-vote-parliament/index.html?iid=hp-toplead-intl

..but looks like a few people outside the parliament were saying no!

Judge
16-07-2015, 11:21
Agreed. Russia is going backwards! :p

Sure, Thailand is on course to join Russia's Eurasian Economic Union,more like moving forward..

Nobbynumbnuts
16-07-2015, 11:29
Sure, Thailand is on course to join Russia's Eurasian Economic Union,more like moving forward..

Right, Russia turns it's back on Germany, UK, USA et al to do business with Thailand....How many tanks for a cart loads of coconuts? Priceless! :p

penka
16-07-2015, 11:32
..but looks like a few people outside the parliament were saying no!

Oh, that's applied democracy!:D

Judge
16-07-2015, 11:34
Right, Russia turns it's back on Germany, UK, USA et al to do business with Thailand....How many tanks for a cart loads of coconuts? Priceless! :p

Russia didn't turn her back on anyone,there are other countries out there to do business with, German companies still operate here,and so do many others, maybe you need to stop laying under that coconut tree..:D

Nobbynumbnuts
16-07-2015, 11:35
Oh, that's applied democracy!:D

..and long shall it remain! ;)

penka
16-07-2015, 11:37
..and long shall it remain! ;)

Naturally!;)

What's this talk about RF exchanging tanks for coconuts and bananas, btw? I must have missed something but it sounds bit... well, outlandish.

Nobbynumbnuts
16-07-2015, 11:37
Russia didn't turn her back on anyone,there are other countries out there to do business with, German companies still operate here,and so do many others, maybe you need to stop laying under that coconut tree..:D

Under Putin, Russia is turning into a laughing stock! :p

Judge
16-07-2015, 11:39
Under Putin, Russia is turning into a laughing stock! :p

Of course Nobby, only in your world. .

Nobbynumbnuts
16-07-2015, 11:48
Of course Nobby, only in your world. .

....the headlines are all around the world. Russia swaps tanks for fruit and veg! :D

Uncle Wally
16-07-2015, 11:57
Of course Nobby, only in your world. .



He is living in some kind of fantasy world where only the USofA and the UK, EU count as "real" countries. Well except for Greece because like he has said "nobody does any work there and they're all lazy good for nothings"

Russia is becoming less isolated since sanctions were put on and has been moving forward on many fronts.

Judge
16-07-2015, 12:00
....the headlines are all around the world. Russia swaps tanks for fruit and veg! :D

All around the world, headlines :zoom: can't see anything on BBC.

Nobbynumbnuts
16-07-2015, 12:01
...Judge, i see your lapdog's back ;) :D

penka
16-07-2015, 12:05
....the headlines are all around the world. Russia swaps tanks for fruit and veg! :D

Gee, quit mystifying me and gimme a link!
I saw nothing in the Swedish papers, nor on the bbc.

Judge
16-07-2015, 12:07
...Judge, i see your lapdog's back ;) :D

Down boy..:10293:

Judge
16-07-2015, 12:07
Gee, quit mystifying me and gimme a link!
I saw nothing in the Swedish papers, nor on the bbc.http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-ready-to-give-thailand-weapons-in-exchange-for-fruit-rubber/525715.html

Uncle Wally
16-07-2015, 12:08
....the headlines are all around the world. Russia swaps tanks for fruit and veg! :D



The headlines; numbnuts just got a bag of killer weed!

Uncle Wally
16-07-2015, 12:12
Gee, quit mystifying me and gimme a link!
I saw nothing in the Swedish papers, nor on the bbc.



That's because it's not big news.

Nobbynumbnuts
16-07-2015, 12:16
Gee, quit mystifying me and gimme a link!
I saw nothing in the Swedish papers, nor on the bbc.

I'm just teasing him. But i do think it's a humiliating position for Russia to be in.
It's the way Russia used to do business in Soviet times.
Russian government will put a spin on it but it looks more than a little desperate..

Uncle Wally
16-07-2015, 12:25
I'm just teasing him. But i do think it's a humiliating position for Russia to be in.
It's the way Russia used to do business in Soviet times.
Russian government will put a spin on it but it looks more than a little desperate..



It's you who are trying "spin it" you know some people think flipping burgers for a living is humiliating. How Russia helping a country that may not have great sums of money is "humiliating" is hard to understand.

penka
16-07-2015, 12:52
I'm just teasing him. But i do think it's a humiliating position for Russia to be in.
It's the way Russia used to do business in Soviet times.
Russian government will put a spin on it but it looks more than a little desperate..

Ok ok, that I got. I still don't understand, what are you referring to! Link, please?

Nobbynumbnuts
16-07-2015, 12:58
Ok ok, that I got. I still don't understand, what are you referring to! Link, please?

It was in the MT
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-ready-to-give-thailand-weapons-in-exchange-for-fruit-rubber/525715.html

penka
16-07-2015, 13:06
It was in the MT
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-ready-to-give-thailand-weapons-in-exchange-for-fruit-rubber/525715.html

Aha, thanks.

Not published or mentioned anywhere else, strangely enough.

I suppose, RF got too many aged weapons they need to dispose of and Thailand got too much fruit:D Logical outcome!

Uncle Wally
16-07-2015, 13:19
Aha, thanks.

Not published or mentioned anywhere else, strangely enough.

I suppose, RF got too many aged weapons they need to dispose of and Thailand got too much fruit:D Logical outcome!



Not only fruit but rubber too!

Nobbynumbnuts
16-07-2015, 13:23
Aha, thanks.

Not published or mentioned anywhere else, strangely enough.

I suppose, RF got too many aged weapons they need to dispose of and Thailand got too much fruit:D Logical outcome!

Makes sense for both sides in the current situation but harks back to the USSR and this wouldn't be happening if not for sanctions..

penka
16-07-2015, 13:42
Not only fruit but rubber too!

Rubber = hmm,... condoms??

Uncle Wally
16-07-2015, 13:44
Makes sense for both sides in the current situation but harks back to the USSR and this wouldn't be happening if not for sanctions..



So it's a good thing.


Why don't you start your own "I hate Russia" thread and talk about your silly brainwashed ideas there?

Uncle Wally
16-07-2015, 13:46
Rubber = hmm,... condoms??


That's a more Uncle Wally comment.


Tires for army trucks?