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tonytony
24-04-2015, 23:23
OK, so I'm actually combining a couple of stories here. Earlier this week there was a BBC programme on what it was like to be a gay person in Russia at the moment.


Following on from that programme I was sent this link of some previously unseen Putin footage released by another British channel a couple of days ago:-

wD0owe6uMok





It actually comes from a UK tv programme called Newzoids. If anyone is old enough [or British enough] to remember then it is an updated version of Spitting Image that just aired for the first time in the UK two weeks ago.

I really like all the small details, like him wearing platform soled shoes.

TolkoRaz
25-04-2015, 10:24
Sacrilege! ;)

rusmeister
25-04-2015, 10:37
OK, so I'm actually combining a couple of stories here. Earlier this week there was a BBC programme on what it was like to be a gay person in Russia at the moment.


It actually comes from a UK tv programme called Newzoids. If anyone is old enough [or British enough] to remember then it is an updated version of Spitting Image that just aired for the first time in the UK two weeks ago.

I really like all the small details, like him wearing platform soled shoes.

What I find continually fascinating is older people speaking recently invented language (something normal in regards to new technologies) regarding very old things that have always existed. They almost eagerly forget the language of their childhood, let alone the historical language for such things, and embrace these new ways of speaking without any thought whatsoever on where words come, and whether they express truth or not.

People like talking of other people as being "creatures of their time", as if peoples of the past were benighted and ignorant, but we - moderns, who proudly live TODAY - are wiser and more enlightened. And it never occurs to them that no one could be more a creature of their time, prisoner of the thinking of their own era, then those who merely ape whatever language and thought happens to surround them at the moment.

So you think that because some people experience sexual desire for the same sex, that they therefore "are" "gay"? Where did the word "gay" come from? When did it clearly achieve the modern usage referring to people who experience sexual attraction to the same sex? Are you old enough to remember "The Flintstones", that they self-unconsciously sang of "having a gay old time" with no reference whatsoever to sexual acts or desires? What do you think has happened to the very old and excellent usage of the word as an expression of merriment as a result? Why do you suppose the proponents of this form of sexual lust chose to steal THAT word, rather than one that factually describes the nature of the sexual attraction?

I think I will probably wait until hell freezes over for direct answers to those particular questions. The entire logic of the "gay" movement demands that those questions not be answered, and preferably, not even asked. Heck, my oldest friend, such a proponent, refuses to answer them. Both evasion of answer and honest answer make the false nature of the entire movement obvious.

TolkoRaz
25-04-2015, 10:43
I read that there is now Gay Therapy being conducted to 'convert' Gays back to being heterosexuals, or at least from abstaining from unnatural sexual acts.

It seems that there is part of the qualified medical community who see being Gay as being an illness and not a choice.

tonytony
25-04-2015, 11:56
What I find continually fascinating is older people speaking recently invented language (something normal in regards to new technologies) regarding very old things that have always existed. They almost eagerly forget the language of their childhood, let alone the historical language for such things, and embrace these new ways of speaking without any thought whatsoever on where words come, and whether they express truth or not.



So you think that because some people experience sexual desire for the same sex, that they therefore "are" "gay"? Where did the word "gay" come from? When did it clearly achieve the modern usage referring to people who experience sexual attraction to the same sex? Are you old enough to remember "The Flintstones", that they self-unconsciously sang of "having a gay old time" with no reference whatsoever to sexual acts or desires? What do you think has happened to the very old and excellent usage of the word as an expression of merriment as a result? Why do you suppose the proponents of this form of sexual lust chose to steal THAT word, rather than one that factually describes the nature of the sexual attraction?



Rus,

I would suggest that you are wrong on so many levels.


older people speaking recently invented language

I am NOT using the word in the sense that young people currently use the word. Nowadays gay can either mean a homosexual or something that is “defective” or “stupid” or the like. This new definition was originally almost exclusively meant as an insulting term, derogatorily referencing homosexuals.

However, according to a report done by the BBC, most children are still using the word to mean “defective” or “rubbish”, but now with having nothing to do with sexuality of any sort and also not generally meant as an insulting term against homosexuals.

Now it is used more like, for example, “That film was gay” as in ''That film was really bad'', but having nothing to do with homosexuality in their minds and not generally directed at people (thus not supposedly meant to be offensive to the gay community).

So, no, I am not speaking ''recently invented language''. If I were then I might say ''Your last post was just so gay'' for example.


This is the link to the BBC article which is really interesting about the history of the word gay and it's current usage amongst young people:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7289390.stm

and here a more recent article that gay people are also using the word gay in this sense as well:-

http://theconversation.com/maybe-thats-so-gay-is-actually-ok-for-young-people-to-say-28687


In the debates about “that’s so gay”, it is important to recognise that gay youths also use the phrase. This was a recurring theme in the interviews, with Fred stating: “I say it all the time, it’s how you say you’re pissed off.” Others had more doubt, with Lee commenting: “I don’t like it, but I also say it.”

Only a minority of participants – less than a third – thought that the phrase was homophobic, and even fewer said that they never used it. Most of the young gay people in my study felt “that’s so gay” would only be homophobic if it was directed at a gay person, and with negative intent.

So there is no easy answer to whether “that’s so gay” is homophobic. It depends on the age of the people saying and hearing it, the intent with which it is said, and the context in which it is said. The meanings and effects of the phrase will also be different if it is aimed at a person or used as a more general expression of frustration.

There is also a clear generational difference, with younger people having markedly different understandings to older people.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/07/08/maybe-its-okay-for-kids-to-say-thats-so-gay/



Where did the word "gay" come from? When did it clearly achieve the modern usage referring to people who experience sexual attraction to the same sex?

I certainly remember the word being used in the 1970s although when insulting people at school we often used stronger language. Just to make sure that my recollections were correct I checked and indeed the Gay Liberation Front was set up in London in 1970 and the first Gay Pride Rally took place in London in 1972.



Are you old enough to remember "The Flintstones", that they self-unconsciously sang of "having a gay old time"

I am indeed. However, that programme first went out in 1960 so that song came from 1959/1960 when the word gay was not used in the non-gay community.



Why do you suppose the proponents of this form of sexual lust chose to steal THAT word, rather than one that factually describes the nature of the sexual attraction?

The word gay has had a very long association with sex and ''loose morals'' as an extension of its meaning of ''carefree'' or ''joyful'' etc and one usage of a ''gay man'' was a man that had sex with a lot of women, often prostitutes.

As so often happens the meanings of words extend and change and homosexual men started using the word gay amongst themselves as early as the 1920s. Is it such a big leap in the meaning of a word that a man who has a lot of [heterosexual] sex could be then also start to be used by homosexual men when talking about themselves?

rusmeister
26-04-2015, 11:20
Rus,

I would suggest that you are wrong on so many levels.



I am NOT using the word in the sense that young people currently use the word. Nowadays gay can either mean a homosexual or something that is “defective” or “stupid” or the like. This new definition was originally almost exclusively meant as an insulting term, derogatorily referencing homosexuals.

However, according to a report done by the BBC, most children are still using the word to mean “defective” or “rubbish”, but now with having nothing to do with sexuality of any sort and also not generally meant as an insulting term against homosexuals.

Now it is used more like, for example, “That film was gay” as in ''That film was really bad'', but having nothing to do with homosexuality in their minds and not generally directed at people (thus not supposedly meant to be offensive to the gay community).

So, no, I am not speaking ''recently invented language''. If I were then I might say ''Your last post was just so gay'' for example.


This is the link to the BBC article which is really interesting about the history of the word gay and it's current usage amongst young people:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7289390.stm

and here a more recent article that gay people are also using the word gay in this sense as well:-

http://theconversation.com/maybe-thats-so-gay-is-actually-ok-for-young-people-to-say-28687


http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/07/08/maybe-its-okay-for-kids-to-say-thats-so-gay/




I certainly remember the word being used in the 1970s although when insulting people at school we often used stronger language. Just to make sure that my recollections were correct I checked and indeed the Gay Liberation Front was set up in London in 1970 and the first Gay Pride Rally took place in London in 1972.




I am indeed. However, that programme first went out in 1960 so that song came from 1959/1960 when the word gay was not used in the non-gay community.




The word gay has had a very long association with sex and ''loose morals'' as an extension of its meaning of ''carefree'' or ''joyful'' etc and one usage of a ''gay man'' was a man that had sex with a lot of women, often prostitutes.

As so often happens the meanings of words extend and change and homosexual men started using the word gay amongst themselves as early as the 1920s. Is it such a big leap in the meaning of a word that a man who has a lot of [heterosexual] sex could be then also start to be used by homosexual men when talking about themselves?

Hi, Tony,
I could suggest that YOU are wrong on so many levels. But would the mere assertion help?

It seems pretty clear that you are using the word in the sense that has been imposed on the modern world (like so many modern expressions and terms) to speak of people who experience sexual desire for people of the same sex. I do not in the least suggest that you intend it in a derogatory fashion. Whether the thing SHOULD be derogated is another matter, but I am not starting from that. So everything talking about the word as an intended insult is irrelevant to what I am saying, and it may be that you misunderstood my previous post. I don't care if teens use the word in ways displeasing to those that practice same-sex sexual relations.

But you and I are speaking on different scales regarding the word "recent". You seem to be speaking in terms of single-digit years; I am talking in terms of centuries. So "recent", as I mean it, covers the last forty-odd years as regards the modern use of "gay" ("homosexual"/"sodomic"), and can be stretched back to a little more than a century as regards any use whatsoever for other than merriment. But I don't even need to do that, for the Flintstones is prima facie evidence that that usage was NOT widespread, or else they would never have dreamed of using it in a children's television show. So we can limit "recent" to the last forty years, within our own lifetimes. It is a fact that before that time, the word was not publicly recognized as belonging to "homosexuals" (though I charge that both words, and ultimately all words, are euphemism for a thing that is an abomination, but think that "sodomy" is philosophically more appropriate, as "behavior leading to the state of Sodom"). The "non-gay community", as you put it, comprised then and now 99% of humanity (and no, I won't quarrel over claims that pretend the percentage is much larger; I dismiss them out of hand as false statistics), so casting normal humanity with a tiny minority as two equal "communities" is ridiculous.

But whether you agree on the latter words or not, you would be a fool to deny that "gay" is undoubtedly euphemism, applying the positive term for merriment to cover the fact of a sexual relationship based on anal copulation.

In short, then, "gay" is euphemism; its original intent has always been attaining social approval of what has always been considered a social evil. That is the first and last point; when you use it, you are saying something that patently dos not say what it means; the usage has always been intended as deception, of themselves as well as others; trying to imagine their state as a specially merry one when it obviously is not.

The fly in the ointment, as in "The Emperor's New Clothes", is the boy who cries out the simple truth, obvious to all who aren't desperately trying to deceive themselves - that the emperor is naked, that the word "gay" is a lie at its very root.