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shurale
03-04-2015, 22:29
Firstly, without googling or looking up on the internet or other resource, give me your definition of self-esteem
Secondly, what does your self-esteem depend on? Does it "fluctuate"?

Fantastika
04-04-2015, 05:11
Listen up fives, a ten is speaking.

rusmeister
04-04-2015, 10:45
I wouldn't bother answering if I thought the question itself frivolous or not worth answering.

It means to esteem oneself, to admire oneself, the extent to which one thinks oneself worthy of praise. It is a fundamentally selfish concept. In reference to Greek mythology, it has been called narcissism. It is also called pride, in the sense of гордыня, is widely advocated in pop psychology in our time and is in direct conflict with the Christian idea of thinking less of oneself and more of God and one's neighbor.

penka
04-04-2015, 10:54
I wouldn't bother answering if I thought the question itself frivolous or not worth answering.

It means to esteem oneself, to admire oneself, the extent to which one thinks oneself worthy of praise. It is a fundamentally selfish concept. In reference to Greek mythology, it has been called narcissism. It is also called pride, in the sense of гордыня, is widely advocated in pop psychology in our time and is in direct conflict with the Christian idea of thinking less of oneself and more of God and one's neighbor.

If it's not worth answering, why do you bother to post an answer and a didactic one?

shurale
04-04-2015, 12:21
I wouldn't bother answering if I thought the question itself frivolous or not worth answering.

It means to esteem oneself, to admire oneself, the extent to which one thinks oneself worthy of praise. It is a fundamentally selfish concept. In reference to Greek mythology, it has been called narcissism. It is also called pride, in the sense of гордыня, is widely advocated in pop psychology in our time and is in direct conflict with the Christian idea of thinking less of oneself and more of God and one's neighbor.

So, you don't have self-esteem?

mr krinkle
04-04-2015, 12:40
Low self esteem is the root cause of a lot of mental illness,depression especially,and addictions like Ólcoholism.....a healthy self esteem is essential ..narcissism is an unhealthy self esteem,founded on ego,its a personality disorder.
Fostering a healthy self esteem in a child is as important as good food ,its absolutely essential for good mental health.

rusmeister
04-04-2015, 15:29
Low self esteem is the root cause of a lot of mental illness,depression especially,and addictions like Ólcoholism.....a healthy self esteem is essential ..narcissism is an unhealthy self esteem,founded on ego,its a personality disorder.
Fostering a healthy self esteem in a child is as important as good food ,its absolutely essential for good mental health.
Since we're dismissing what I've already said:

That's what I meant by pop psychology.

You're using terms without defining them, assuming agreed-on understandings when we haven't agreed on them. We would actually agree that children should be taught the confidence to attempt things, for instance, and that they should not treat their lives or bodies as having no value or not worth taking care of.

But the meaning of "self-esteem" means nothing if it does not mean narcissism, for it clearly means "to esteem yourself", and if "esteem" does not mean "admire (more than usual)" than it waters down the meaning of the word to pointlessness.

So insofar as you mean that children should be taught normal respect and the confidence to do things, we are on the same page, but "self-esteem" is wrong language, even if thousands of people parrot the expression.

To Penka: Please note I used the second conditional mood (unreal present), which means that I DO think the question worth answering.

vossy7
04-04-2015, 17:22
Maybe I am too simple here, first of all self......means you and me and how we see ourselves ......esteem is basically respect ......so self esteem is all about respect for yourself.....the only way you can respect your self is that you can look in a mirror ........look straight into your own eyes and ask yourself am I a good person and hopefully you can say to yourself yes :10518:

mr krinkle
04-04-2015, 20:43
Since we're dismissing what I've already said:

That's what I meant by pop psychology.

You're using terms without defining them, assuming agreed-on understandings when we haven't agreed on them. We would actually agree that children should be taught the confidence to attempt things, for instance, and that they should not treat their lives or bodies as having no value or not worth taking care of.

But the meaning of "self-esteem" means nothing if it does not mean narcissism, for it clearly means "to esteem yourself", and if "esteem" does not mean "admire (more than usual)" than it waters down the meaning of the word to pointlessness.

So insofar as you mean that children should be taught normal respect and the confidence to do things, we are on the same page, but "self-esteem" is wrong language, even if thousands of people parrot the expression.


To Penka: Please note I used the second conditional mood (unreal present), which means that I DO think the question worth answering.

self esteem isnt narcissism,one is healthy mentally,and the other is unhealthy......they are not the same thing at all..not pop psychology....just psychology.....

natlee
04-04-2015, 23:15
Oh yes it fluctuates. Mine's below ground at the moment.

shurale
05-04-2015, 00:17
Oh yes it fluctuates. Mine's below ground at the moment.

That is because you are selfish.
See posts above.

rusmeister
05-04-2015, 05:48
Oh yes it fluctuates. Mine's below ground at the moment.

I'd ask why exactly you feel a need to esteem yourself.
Depression and regret about past actions and choices or present situations are not best met by "esteeming yourself".
Frankly, I find it salutary to realize that , like Bilbo Baggins, I am only a little fellow in the wide world after all. The whole point of Bilbo and Frodo (in the books, at any rate) is that they do not esteem themselves. They are heroic by being small, and by loving and admiring things outside of themselves.

There IS such a thing as an unhealthy - "insane" in Latin - reduction of the value of one's life to "not worth living". It is the opposite extreme of self-esteem; self-loathing.

If "esteem" means "see things as they are", then it is a useless word. It only means something if it means "admire", "think especially good". It is VERY good to esteem others, to see the good in everything and everyone - with one exception: the danger is in thinking that we ourselves are especially good, something we'd all like to believe, but which we know in our hearts to be profoundly untrue.


When a man is getting better he understands more and more clearly the evil that is still left in him. When a man is getting worse he understands his own badness less and less. A moderately bad man knows he is not very good: a thoroughly bad man thinks he is all right. This is common sense, really. You understand sleep when you are awake, not while you are sleeping. You can see mistakes in arithmetic when your mind is working properly: while you are making them you cannot see them. You can understand the nature of drunkenness when you are sober, not when you are drunk. Good people know about both good and evil: bad people do not know about either.”
CS Lewis

The paradox is that the people we call "saints" are those who most thoroughly realized their own badness. Mother Theresa (just to take a well-known example) is not known and admired for her self-esteem, but rather for her esteem of the value of others. They practiced the good opposite of self-esteem: self-effacement.

mr krinkle
05-04-2015, 10:13
Mother Theresa was a charlatan...her hospice in Calcutta nothing more than a courtyard in a medieval Bedlam,she never even administered anything equating to adequate painkillers to those terminally ill patients of hers,thinking it "necessary to suffer" in order to to enter Heaven.!..
Mother T never realized her own badness,such a narcissist in fact,she couldnt see the evil of her own existence.....when it came to her own time to die,her own lack of faith tormented her....Check out Chris Hitchens book on mama T entitled "Hell's Angel"....a real eye opener....she certainly never esteemed the life of the poor unfortunates she took into her "care"....

Suuryaa
05-04-2015, 12:44
Looks like, with so many topics, shurale is conducting some research.

vossy7
05-04-2015, 13:36
Looks like, with so many topics, shurale is conducting some research.

Or maybe it's PMT :eek:

natlee
05-04-2015, 13:50
That is because you are selfish. **** off.

There IS such a thing as an unhealthy - "insane" in Latin - reduction of the value of one's life to "not worth living". Yeah that.

Suuryaa
05-04-2015, 14:09
Natlee, why don't you try something you have always dreamt about, but haven't found time, etc? Maybe that will make you happier?

I'd long wanted to study Indian dancing, and then at last decided to forget about money and time, and have never regretted! In some most depressing periods of my life, the classes helped me not to completely get immersed into depression.

shurale
05-04-2015, 14:15
Or maybe it's PMT :eek:

Parent Management Training?

shurale
05-04-2015, 14:18
**** off.
Yeah that.

Hey, darling, careful with the language or we will be sent to bardak.
Anyway, as I understood venerable Rusmeister, if a person feels depressed it serves him/her right, because s/he is selfish.

natlee
05-04-2015, 14:55
Hey, darling, careful with the language or we will be sent to bardak.
Anyway, as I understood venerable Rusmeister, if a person feels depressed it serves him/her right, because s/he is selfish. Apologies, but methinks you've been on the site long enough to know that few of us bother with Rus's hour long posts...


Natlee, why don't you try something you have always dreamt about, but haven't found time, etc? Maybe that will make you happier?

I'd long wanted to study Indian dancing, and then at last decided to forget about money and time, and have never regretted! In some most depressing periods of my life, the classes helped me not to completely get immersed into depression. Appreciated Suuryaa, but sadly... let's just say that this past Fri was the first time I had the opportunity to leave the house without the children in over two years, and that took quite some planning, cash and asking for favors so taking up a hobby I've always wanted, sadly, is out of the question at this point in time... great idea though, if only!

Anyhoo, it's best I go offline for a while before I upset anyone else or get banned - not that it would bother me atm!

Suuryaa
05-04-2015, 15:40
Appreciated Suuryaa, but sadly... let's just say that this past Fri was the first time I had the opportunity to leave the house without the children in over two years, and that took quite some planning, cash and asking for favors so taking up a hobby I've always wanted, sadly, is out of the question at this point in time... great idea though, if only!

Got it. I'm not surprised you're depressed. Any job, even a very pleasant one, should have vacations.

quincy
05-04-2015, 15:47
Low self esteem is the root cause of a lot of mental illness,depression especially,and addictions like Ólcoholism.....a healthy self esteem is essential ..narcissism is an unhealthy self esteem,founded on ego,its a personality disorder.
Fostering a healthy self esteem in a child is as important as good food ,its absolutely essential for good mental health.

Good summary

Narcissists end up as they are maybe because they received too much attention in childhood

There are narcissists who are actually good at some things that they do, but they extrapolate believing they are good at everything

Yes it is a personality disorder

rusmeister
05-04-2015, 20:21
Apologies, but methinks you've been on the site long enough to know that few of us bother with Rus's hour long posts...

Appreciated Suuryaa, but sadly... let's just say that this past Fri was the first time I had the opportunity to leave the house without the children in over two years, and that took quite some planning, cash and asking for favors so taking up a hobby I've always wanted, sadly, is out of the question at this point in time... great idea though, if only!

Anyhoo, it's best I go offline for a while before I upset anyone else or get banned - not that it would bother me atm!

I'm not upset, Natlee. We all face depression at times, often over fairly serious stuff. Regarding children, yes, there will be a few more long years when you feel totally tied down, but then, with a sudden shock, you will realize they are spending more and more time with their friends and less with you. Believe me, I know. And sympathize. I hardly see my older son at all any more. He mostly has his own life now. My teenage daughter also puts most of her efforts into asserting independence, only my younger kids run up and hug me now.

I think the real solution is to be found in the truth of who we are as human beings. Shurale understands me halfway. We ARE fundamentally selfish; meaning radically and wrongly oriented towards our own selves. That's why seeking a solution in "self-esteem" won't help. Pop psychology takes half-truths and ultimately provides no solution - like trying to put a bandage on a cancerous growth. We call it "sin", a broken relationship with our Creator. That's the fundamental cause of the depression, not a "lack of self-esteem". The trouble with that truth is that it means admitting that we ought NOT to esteem ourselves as we are, that we need to desire to change into something that really COULD be esteemed. And people don't want to change. We want to have our cake and eat it, too, as they say. We don't want to let go of our pornography, excess drinking, laziness, our sense of entitlement or whatever, and yet we want to esteem ourselves. People don't want to hear that, so they prefer narratives about "self-esteem". It's much more comfortable than having to change your life.

As to my posts, if it really takes an hour to read one, that doesn't say anything optimistic about one's reading ability. Even if you can only read ten to twenty words a minute - which is REALLY sloooooow, most of my posts shouldn't top fifteen minutes. :D
(FWIW, though, I know what you really mean. If you don't get me, then I seem boring.
You know, when I first started reading Chesterton, I scratched my head while reading at a snail's pace, trying to follow what the heck he was talking about. When I finally got his drift, it was like a light bulb switching on and everything began making sense. And I had already read CS Lewis - who was easier, and that helped me not to drop GKC.)

FTR, it takes me less than one minute to read this post. If it takes anyone more than three, I'd suggest more reading practice. :)

bydand
05-04-2015, 21:08
Thanks.

natlee
05-04-2015, 22:01
I'm not depressed about being a stay-at-home mom, my dears. That's just something that prevents me from doing something for myself which would help take my mind off things. As far as my self-esteem, I'm embarrassed to admit that it has always gone hand in hand with my relationships. And far more depressing than being a stay-at-home mom is being in a long-distant relationship constantly having to say goodbye to the person you love more than words can describe. If you haven't tried it - don't!

penka
06-04-2015, 00:38
I'm not depressed about being a stay-at-home mom, my dears. That's just something that prevents me from doing something for myself which would help take my mind off things. As far as my self-esteem, I'm embarrassed to admit that it has always gone hand in hand with my relationships. And far more depressing than being a stay-at-home mom is being in a long-distant relationship constantly having to say goodbye to the person you love more than words can describe. If you haven't tried it - don't!

Nat, if there is a problem, there is a solution one way or another.

Uncle Wally
06-04-2015, 01:25
Got it. I'm not surprised you're depressed. Any job, even a very pleasant one, should have vacations.



Not if you love it. It becomes you and you become it, you can't tell where you end and it begins. " I got to lose me to find you" or I got to lose me to find it. You are what you eat, sleep and drink! You do it well and they will love you for it. That goes for being a mother too. If you're a bad mother they will forget you. If you are a good mother they will never forget you. The best investment you can make in your life is children, the more the better! Because in the end money will not matter no matter how much you have they will wait for your death. Love, true love, like the love you have for your good, loving, understanding, caring mother, that is what makes you cry when you lose it/her. No money can replace it or make you feel better because moms gone and nobody not anyone will love or except you like mom. Have children and you will know you didn't miss a thing.

Uncle Wally
06-04-2015, 01:26
Nat, if there is a problem, there is a solution one way or another.



There are no problems only solutions.

penka
06-04-2015, 01:33
There are no problems only solutions.

Wrong, Wally. There are problems and there are expenses.

Uncle Wally
06-04-2015, 01:50
I'm not depressed about being a stay-at-home mom, my dears. That's just something that prevents me from doing something for myself which would help take my mind off things. As far as my self-esteem, I'm embarrassed to admit that it has always gone hand in hand with my relationships. And far more depressing than being a stay-at-home mom is being in a long-distant relationship constantly having to say goodbye to the person you love more than words can describe. If you haven't tried it - don't!



If there was no pain you wouldn't know what love is. You're lucky.

There is no self and you're luck because if it was just you, you would be all alone. You're luck because (and one day you will see) not that you will love but that you will be loved and that makes you a star! More than many people can say. If we get 15 seconds of fame in our life wouldn't in be better to be the last 15 seconds of our life than than first 15 and then thinking about it for the rest? You're luck, you're sexy, you're beautiful and good.

Uncle Wally
06-04-2015, 01:59
Wrong, Wally. There are problems and there are expenses.



Women!

Why can't I live without you? Life would be soooo easy.

Don't talk to me about "expenses"! I got a girlfriend an ex and a son I know about it all to well. If I could just get a little more money I could have a little more expenses.

rusmeister
06-04-2015, 07:12
Thanks.

(Voice of Michael J Fox: ) You're welcome, cupcake!

penka
06-04-2015, 08:43
Women!

Why can't I live without you? Life would be soooo easy.

Don't talk to me about "expenses"! I got a girlfriend an ex and a son I know about it all to well. If I could just get a little more money I could have a little more expenses.

Your line of thought is wrong again;)

If a problem can be solved with the help of money, like the an absent visa, it is not a problem, it is an expense.

Fantastika
06-04-2015, 10:38
Oh yes it fluctuates. Mine's below ground at the moment.

Are you directing your life, or is someone else?

To increase self-esteem (self-confidence), you have to understand what reduces it. :confused1: If you know what is reducing your self-determinism, and why, you can reverse the situation and rebuild your self-esteem. :trampoline:

Uncle Wally
06-04-2015, 10:47
Your line of thought is wrong again;)

If a problem can be solved with the help of money, like the an absent visa, it is not a problem, it is an expense.


Money can be a solution to a problem. If expense is a problem that can be solved to.

There are no problems only solutions.

natlee
06-04-2015, 12:17
Nat, if there is a problem, there is a solution one way or another. There does not seem to be a short-term solution and the situation is killing me.


The best investment you can make in your life is children, the more the better! Sounds great until you try bringing them up all on your own... I would love a son but doubt I could do it once more.


If there was no pain you wouldn't know what love is. I've had enough to last me a lifetime. A couple of failed relationships were enough for me to swear I would keep my heart well hidden but then stupid Cupid hit me again, at the most unexpected of times, with the most unexpected of people... A bit of drama may have been fun in my teen years, but today I would much rather have a simple boring life falling asleep next to the man of my dreams every night and waking up next to him the next morning, and the next, and the next...


You're luck because (and one day you will see) not that you will love but that you will be loved and that makes you a star! Who by, my children? Certainly not judging by my relationship with my own mother!

vossy7
06-04-2015, 12:31
There does not seem to be a short-term solution and the situation is killing me.

Sounds great until you try bringing them up all on your own... I would love a son but doubt I could do it once more.

I've had enough to last me a lifetime. A couple of failed relationships were enough for me to swear I would keep my heart well hidden but then stupid Cupid hit me again, at the most unexpected of times, with the most unexpected of people... A bit of drama may have been fun in my teen years, but today I would much rather have a simple boring life falling asleep next to the man of my dreams every night and waking up next to him the next morning, and the next, and the next...

Who by, my children? Certainly not judging by my relationship with my own mother!

Wow sounds like you are going through a rough patch, wish I could give you a nice cuddle :)

penka
06-04-2015, 13:12
There does not seem to be a short-term solution and the situation is killing me.



Very understandable and draining. Of course, it affects you.

Are you being told tales, you suspect?

vossy7
06-04-2015, 13:54
Parent Management Training?

No, I meant you suffering from PMT, ....Prompt Mental Treatment required :verymad:

natlee
06-04-2015, 20:14
Wow sounds like you are going through a rough patch, wish I could give you a nice cuddle :) Mmmm :)


Very understandable and draining. Of course, it affects you.

Are you being told tales, you suspect? I don't think so, no. He's very open with me about his fears and concerns, and I understand every one of them perfectly well. I have doubts and fears of my own, but would probably take a risk because the thought of having him by my side and vice versa for better or for worse is a warm and pleasant one. And he is a wonderful father, best I've ever seen and our little girl would be lucky to have him there with and for her, and so would her sister.

My God, I haven't been so smitten with a man since my teen years! Is there a cure?

penka
06-04-2015, 20:24
Mmmm :)

I don't think so, no. He's very open with me about his fears and concerns, and I understand every one of them perfectly well. I have doubts and fears of my own, but would probably take a risk because the thought of having him by my side and vice versa for better or for worse is a warm and pleasant one. And he is a wonderful father, best I've ever seen and our little girl would be lucky to have him there with and for her, and so would her sister.

My God, I haven't been so smitten with a man since my teen years! Is there a cure?

Man, for your own sake, I do hope you are not feeding yourself a line! Really.

I'll wish you good luck then!

FatAndy
06-04-2015, 21:06
Does it "fluctuate"?
No, it is stable high. :cool:

shurale
06-04-2015, 21:11
I could use self-confidence.
Ok, so what is the difference?

And then, is necessary to have high self-esteem to be assertive (or very assertive)?

FatAndy
06-04-2015, 21:52
I could use self-confidence.
Ok, so what is the difference?

And then, is necessary to have high self-esteem to be assertive (or very assertive)?
I don't know the enemy's language good enough. Anyway, I feel good and like my state.:iagree:

Uncle Wally
06-04-2015, 22:35
Mmmm :)

I don't think so, no. He's very open with me about his fears and concerns, and I understand every one of them perfectly well. I have doubts and fears of my own, but would probably take a risk because the thought of having him by my side and vice versa for better or for worse is a warm and pleasant one. And he is a wonderful father, best I've ever seen and our little girl would be lucky to have him there with and for her, and so would her sister.

My God, I haven't been so smitten with a man since my teen years! Is there a cure?



A hopeless romantic! I guess I can get over them better because of music, playing or writing or it just get easier with age.

rusmeister
06-04-2015, 22:57
I could use self-confidence.
Ok, so what is the difference?

And then, is necessary to have high self-esteem to be assertive (or very assertive)?

"Esteem" is really a word that means, at its broadest, "to admire". "Confidence" means rather "to trust". SO "self-confidence" is surely better, as long as it does not mean "a complete and total reliance one one's self (in principle)" rather than "confidence in one's ability to do/know something".

One can have complete confidence either that something is true or that one can do something, and yet not admire oneself for being able to do so.

shurale
07-04-2015, 07:58
"Esteem" is really a word that means, at its broadest, "to admire". "Confidence" means rather "to trust". SO "self-confidence" is surely better, as long as it does not mean "a complete and total reliance one one's self (in principle)" rather than "confidence in one's ability to do/know something".

One can have complete confidence either that something is true or that one can do something, and yet not admire oneself for being able to do so.

Thank you.
Is giving credit to oneself right or wrong?
As for a "complete and total reliance on one's self (in principle)"
it reminded me of this (found in ru.net)

"And what right does a surgeon with 20 years of experience have to tell me about my mistakes, even though I have worked as a surgeon two weeks?"

Self-admiration is akin to masturbation. A child wants to be touched by parent, an adult wants to be touched/stroked by his/her lover. (and a kiss on the cheek from your child is nice, too)
But when you are stroking yourself. Well...

rusmeister
07-04-2015, 12:32
Thank you.
Is giving credit to oneself right or wrong?
As for a "complete and total reliance on one's self (in principle)"
it reminded me of this (found in ru.net)

"And what right does a surgeon with 20 years of experience have to tell me about my mistakes, even though I have worked as a surgeon two weeks?"

Self-admiration is akin to masturbation. A child wants to be touched by parent, an adult wants to be touched/stroked by his/her lover. (and a kiss on the cheek from your child is nice, too)
But when you are stroking yourself. Well...

I think pretty much every wise man from every major world religion would discourage "giving oneself credit" on the whole.
We did jot give birth to ourselves. We did not take care of ourselves for many years after birth. Nearly all of us have had help from others; there are a great many things we could never do on our own, and of the things we have done, we generally had the aid of both people and things, technologies and so on that we likewise did not invent.
The attitude (of self-esteem and self-admiration, taking credit for oneself, patting oneself on the back) is pretty much the opposite of gratitude, a true key to happiness. It is the admiration and esteem of what is external to us that enables wonder, joy and gratitude.

And yes, you are right about what self-admiration is akin to. You would have to understand what is wrong with that, and in our time, nearly no one does. It took me many years to learn that one...

bydand
07-04-2015, 13:00
Thanks.

mr krinkle
07-04-2015, 17:07
Self admiration is not the same as self esteem....why do you have to re define ?.....Vossy mentioned self respect,which is closer definition.....I"ll go along with that....self esteem is not a dirty word,why try and make it so?

shurale
08-04-2015, 01:56
Self admiration is not the same as self esteem....why do you have to re define ?.....Vossy mentioned self respect,which is closer definition.....I"ll go along with that....self esteem is not a dirty word,why try and make it so?

to make you feel guilty. so that you bring guilt offering.
An unblemished ram and shekels.

mr krinkle
08-04-2015, 10:00
to make you feel guilty. so that you bring guilt offering.
An unblemished ram and shekels.

Yes of course,silly of me...guilt is the oxygen of Religion.

rusmeister
08-04-2015, 17:10
Yes of course,silly of me...guilt is the oxygen of Religion.

That's silly. It's talking as if guilt were not a real phenomenon that we experience when we know we have done wrong. Are you saying that guilt is wrong in principle, that no one should ever feel guilty? That the person who keys your car or mugs you or betrays you at work should respect themselves and forgive themselves for it, and skip merrily away?

People do talk about guilt like that, as if it were something invented by religions instead of something we rightly feel when we do wrong.

shurale
08-04-2015, 18:38
That's silly. It's talking as if guilt were not a real phenomenon that we experience when we know we have done wrong. Are you saying that guilt is wrong in principle, that no one should ever feel guilty? That the person who keys your car or mugs you or betrays you at work should respect themselves and forgive themselves for it, and skip merrily away?

People do talk about guilt like that, as if it were something invented by religions instead of something we rightly feel when we do wrong.

Strawman argument.

mr krinkle
08-04-2015, 19:31
That's silly. It's talking as if guilt were not a real phenomenon that we experience when we know we have done wrong. Are you saying that guilt is wrong in principle, that no one should ever feel guilty? That the person who keys your car or mugs you or betrays you at work should respect themselves and forgive themselves for it, and skip merrily away?

People do talk about guilt like that, as if it were something invented by religions instead of something we rightly feel when we do wrong.

I 'm a catholic,i know all about guilt....teach your granny how to suck eggs....

shurale
09-04-2015, 19:19
He has losts of self-esteem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfIKzReNDF4

dlogin
09-04-2015, 21:51
In sociology and psychology, self-esteem reflects a person's overall emotional evaluation of his or her own worth. It is a judgment of oneself as well as an attitude toward the self. Self-esteem encompasses beliefs (for example, "I am competent," "I am worthy") and emotions such as triumph, despair, pride and shame. Smith and Mackie define it by saying "The self-concept is what we think about the self; self-esteem, is the positive or negative evaluations of the self, as in how we feel about it. Self-esteem is also known as the evaluative dimension of the self that includes feelings of worthiness, prides and discouragement. One's self-esteem is also closely associated with self-consciousness.

mr krinkle
09-04-2015, 22:39
In sociology and psychology, self-esteem reflects a person's overall emotional evaluation of his or her own worth. It is a judgment of oneself as well as an attitude toward the self. Self-esteem encompasses beliefs (for example, "I am competent," "I am worthy") and emotions such as triumph, despair, pride and shame. Smith and Mackie define it by saying "The self-concept is what we think about the self; self-esteem, is the positive or negative evaluations of the self, as in how we feel about it. Self-esteem is also known as the evaluative dimension of the self that includes feelings of worthiness, prides and discouragement. One's self-esteem is also closely associated with self-consciousness.

Thankyou,very helpful......maybe you could post this again in the s3lf esteem thread...it might educate a few people....

Fantastika
10-04-2015, 01:42
In sociology and psychology, self-esteem reflects a person's overall emotional evaluation of his or her own worth. It is a judgment of oneself as well as an attitude toward the self. Self-esteem encompasses beliefs (for example, "I am competent," "I am worthy") and emotions such as triumph, despair, pride and shame. Smith and Mackie define it by saying "The self-concept is what we think about the self; self-esteem, is the positive or negative evaluations of the self, as in how we feel about it. Self-esteem is also known as the evaluative dimension of the self that includes feelings of worthiness, prides and discouragement. One's self-esteem is also closely associated with self-consciousness.

Wow, that's profound! :rofl:

Move over Spinoza, roll over Beethoven, step aside Shakespeare, welcome to cut-n-paste Psych 101 and Soc 101!

shurale
10-04-2015, 06:37
Wow, that's profound! :rofl:

Move over Spinoza, roll over Beethoven, step aside Shakespeare, welcome to cut-n-paste Psych 101 and Soc 101!

The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world.

rusmeister
10-04-2015, 13:54
In sociology and psychology, self-esteem reflects a person's overall emotional evaluation of his or her own worth. It is a judgment of oneself as well as an attitude toward the self. Self-esteem encompasses beliefs (for example, "I am competent," "I am worthy") and emotions such as triumph, despair, pride and shame. Smith and Mackie define it by saying "The self-concept is what we think about the self; self-esteem, is the positive or negative evaluations of the self, as in how we feel about it. Self-esteem is also known as the evaluative dimension of the self that includes feelings of worthiness, prides and discouragement. One's self-esteem is also closely associated with self-consciousness.

There is a reason why these are pseudo sciences.
The trouble with making self-estimates is rooted in the essential problem of any psychology or sociology, or even anthropology. It is that the scientist, in. everything else, is studying an object, and the object is not the same thing as the subject. He is not disinterested. He has a stake in the thing he is studying - himself. And as these are the studies of the human soul, human society and man as a whole, they cannot reliably do so unless they are founded in truth that can correct the scientist when he is tempted to interpret his observations in ways inconsistent with reality - and as I said, he has special motivation to do so. In short, unless you have the truth about the human soul, your psychology will only be coincidentally true and accurate; that is, when it aligns with what is true about man. Without what is thought of as philosophical and religious truth, you cannot have ultimately reliable psychology, or sociology, or anthropology. People used to know this, and philosophy and theology had the highest places in learning. Now they don't, and so gradually produce more and more nonsense inconsistent with reality. All issues come back ultimately to the classic question which Pilate rhetorically asked Christ: "What is truth?", and so there is no knowledge not governed by practical philosophy and theology (and so, trying to compartmentalize those questions as if they were separate and unrelated to any given topic betrays deep ignorance).

So go on quoting your memorized definitions. Me, I'll continue to try to think about what a word means. Regarding "esteem", while it stems from the word "estimate", it survives in the language because it has meant "admire" for centuries. But even given the idea of estimating, we still have a horrible habit of self-deception, and so could estimate our self worth on any level. So "self-esteem", even as "self-estimate", cannot be an unqualified good; using "low" and "high" is not clear thinking, as it really does imply that you should esteem yourself, and if "low" is not good, "high" implies very good, certainly not "too much.
Wiser people think less about themselves, and more about who and what is around them. To take a great literary example, Bilbo Baggins didn't have "self-esteem" at all; he didn't worry about his self-image, and even thought of himself as a little fellow, and that is exactly both why he is heroic and why we admire him.

shurale
10-04-2015, 15:05
[QUOTE=rusmeister;1416054]There is a reason why these are pseudo sciences.
The trouble with making self-estimates is rooted in the essential problem of any psychology or sociology, or even anthropology. It is that the scientist, in. everything else, is studying an object, and the object is not the same thing as the subject. He is not disinterested. He has a stake in the thing he is studying - himself. And as these are the studies of the human soul, human society and man as a whole, they cannot reliably do so unless they are founded in truth that can correct the scientist when he is tempted to interpret his observations in ways inconsistent with reality - and as I said, he has special motivation to do so. In short, unless you have the truth about the human soul, your psychology will only be coincidentally true and accurate; that is, when it aligns with what is true about man. Without what is thought of as philosophical and religious truth, you cannot have ultimately reliable psychology, or sociology, or anthropology. People used to know this, and philosophy and theology had the highest places in learning. Now they don't, and so gradually produce more and more nonsense inconsistent with reality. All issues come back ultimately to the classic question which Pilate rhetorically asked Christ: "What is truth?", and so there is no knowledge not governed by practical philosophy and theology (and so, trying to compartmentalize those questions as if they were separate and unrelated to any given topic betrays deep ignorance).

So go on quoting your memorized definitions. Me, I'll continue to try to think about what a word means. Regarding "esteem", while it stems from the word "estimate", it survives in the language because it has meant "admire" for centuries. But even given the idea of estimating, we still have a horrible habit of self-deception, and so could estimate our self worth on any level. So "self-esteem", even as "self-estimate", cannot be an unqualified good; using "low" and "high" is not clear thinking, as it really does imply that you should esteem yourself, and if "low" is not good, "high" implies very good, certainly not "too much.
Wiser people think less about themselves, and more about who and what is around them. To take a great literary example, Bilbo Baggins didn't have "self-esteem" at all; he didn't worry about his self-image, and even thought of himself as a little fellow, and that is exactly both why he is heroic and why we admire him.[/QUOTE

Psychology and sociology are pseudo sciences. As well as chemistry, mathematics and physics. The only true science is theology.

penka
10-04-2015, 18:10
Theology is the most arbitrary science and is entirely a man's creation since the Truth (here: the objective truth of divinity) is interpreted by humans which is a ridiculous contradio in adjecto by itself. At the radical end, people of medical profession should not be allowed to exist since their interference not only with health but with the matters of life and death can easily be interpreted as interference with the divine providence.
However, having faith is a different matter. Most of the times it is a comforting and supportive ingredient in one's life. But even faith can turn destructive, depending on the individual.

As for psychology, obviously, there are doubtful conclusions or methods in place. Still, psychologists try to establish the logical sequence of causality which leads to an appropriate treatment.

rusmeister
10-04-2015, 19:56
Theology is the most arbitrary science and is entirely a man's creation since the Truth (here: the objective truth of divinity) is interpreted by humans which is a ridiculous contradio in adjecto by itself. At the radical end, people of medical profession should not be allowed to exist since their interference not only with health but with the matters of life and death can easily be interpreted as interference with the divine providence.
However, having faith is a different matter. Most of the times it is a comforting and supportive ingredient in one's life. But even faith can turn destructive, depending on the individual.

As for psychology, obviously, there are doubtful conclusions or methods in place. Still, psychologists try to establish the logical sequence of causality which leads to an appropriate treatment.
Let's see, your first statement that it is entirely a man's creation is an unprovable dogma in speaking about theology as a whole. Certainly you could produce a theology that we might agree is entirely man-made; I believe that if there is a God who made us, then He certainly has the power to tell us something about Himself if He chooses to. And I believe that He has.

Obviously theology and philosophy are not natural sciences, and are not governed by scientific empiricism. They provide postulates, from which, if true, other postulates or conclusions follow (see logic). You may deny the theology or philosophy, but on what basis do you do so? How well founded are your objections? It is really up to human judgement. What if you are wrong?

You speak of "the radical end". What I see to be genuine philosophy refutes such an end. If the postulates "God created human life in His own image", "Human life is of immeasurable value", and "knowledge may and ought to be used to better the human lot within moral bounds" are true, then it follows that your scarecrow is a straw man. The overarching question is "What is the source of your theology?" and "Is it really true? On what basis?".
It appears that your answer to that question is "The individual". I reject that, and could not accept any individual as a final authority of truth.

I certainly grant that psychologists (or any "psyche"-"scientists") try to do the best they can. However, if their understanding of what the human soul is is incorrect, then they will err to the degree that they are mistaken. Thus, psychologists need the truth about the human soul in order to establish any certainly valid psychology. Without it, they are blind men grasping in the dark, quacks who get some things right purely coincidentally, and the rest is malpractice.

shurale
11-04-2015, 02:50
sic
I certainly grant that psychologists (or any "psyche"-"scientists") try to do the best they can. However, if their understanding of what the human soul is is incorrect, then they will err to the degree that they are mistaken. Thus, psychologists need the truth about the human soul in order to establish any certainly valid psychology. Without it, they are blind men grasping in the dark, quacks who get some things right purely coincidentally, and the rest is malpractice.

And of course Satan planted dinosaur bones in the ground to lead poor souls astray.
Seriously it is not the first and the last time when theists attack science.

rusmeister
11-04-2015, 06:52
And of course Satan planted dinosaur bones in the ground to lead poor souls astray.
Seriously it is not the first and the last time when theists attack science.

There you go! Confuse pseudo-sciences with genuine sciences and just call them all together "science"!

I normally don't respond to you, Shurale, because you seem genuinely uninterested in fairly considering anything I have to say. But even in such cases, there can be things to say to the larger audience.

"Science" means "knowledge", "what we know" at its root.
If any of that knowledge is wrong, in error, then it is not actually knowledge, is it?

shurale
11-04-2015, 21:59
There you go! Confuse pseudo-sciences with genuine sciences and just call them all together "science"!

I normally don't respond to you, Shurale, because you seem genuinely uninterested in fairly considering anything I have to say. But even in such cases, there can be things to say to the larger audience.

"Science" means "knowledge", "what we know" at its root.
If any of that knowledge is wrong, in error, then it is not actually knowledge, is it?

I'm busy and I'm ill.
So, the only comment is a question, "where did you learn debating?"
In a seminary? Did they teach you to use ad hominem attacks?

rusmeister
12-04-2015, 11:21
I'm busy and I'm ill.
So, the only comment is a question, "where did you learn debating?"
In a seminary? Did they teach you to use ad hominem attacks?

I'm sorry you're ill. Get well soon!

I'm only explaining why I often don't respond to you. I'm not using that as an argument. No ad hominem. If I were saying "You are wrong because you are uninterested..." that WOULD be ad hominem, I suppose, but I didn't say that. It was a separate comment.

My charge is that you imply I oppose all science because I say there is such a thing as pseudo-science; on the contrary, an insistence on pseudo-science implies the existence of valid science.

It's not really fair to complain of ad hominem and call for good debating etiquette if you yourself assume arguments on my part that I do not suggest, such as that Satan plants dinosaur bones. As long as you choose tactics like that, I don't see how reasonable debate can occur. But I grant you can begin applying good debating skills at any time. And all of us have bad days.

I'm fighting a cold myself, on the most important holiday of the year. So really, get well soon! Being sick sucks!

Fantastika
13-04-2015, 07:28
Shurale, I don't understand any of your comments, but I am not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree...

When I was at the university, I took Psych 101 and Soc 101. Later on, at another college I took Anthro 101 and 102.

The Psychology laboratory was interesting because we got to fool around with little white rats.

Sociology was interesting because of its fascination with numbers (I like numbers, too) and I had cognitions, that now I was an adept, welcomed to the secret world of arcane knowledge; now I was a member of the intelligentsia, privy to knowledge that the peons (non-college types) did not have. I had access to the secrets of society, so I was superior!

Anthropology, it seemed the prof spent the whole semester "proving" that anything a human can do, a monkey can do (Conclusion: (Duh!) "Human beings are spiritless animals"). I played devil's advocate with myself, and got an "A".

But I realized these "Humanist sciences" are not "science" as usually considered. In Mathematics, 1+1=2 on the Moon or on the Earth, in Spain or in Siam, for a 9-year-old, or a 90-year-old. In Psychology, Ritalin + Human can equal a) a calm (clam?) student b) a functional illiterate, or c) a school shooter.

What good do these pseudo-sciences do? Do they actually help advance the human race? End war, end strife? Bring peace to warring nations and feuding couples? Most importantly, do they end the blues? :)

In the Psych lab, with the little white mice I said to myself, what the heck does all this prove? Forcing this poor mouse to follow a certain path so he gets his reward of cheese? How does this help understanding of human mental condition? People are not rats, so how can rat behavior be used to help people? Obviously it can't, but it can be used to *control* people. And governments are always looking to increase their control over people, and constantly introducing new laws implemented with techniques of behavior modification to impel people to accept new laws and regulations.

The history of psychology is one disaster after another - starting with Freud, a cocaine addict, going to eugenics in the 1900's (rationalizing ethnic genocide), Nazi "Doctor" Mengele's "research" using Jews in WW2, lobotomies to "help" psychotics in the 1960's, to today's massive psychiatric drugging of schoolchildren, and psychology's evasion of their responsibility in nearly all of the mass school shootings.

Sociology, what is gained by knowing that 22.3% of children in the US live in poverty, when the definition of "poverty" changes constantly? And does that help the children, by defining them downward? By pointing out the economic differences in cl**** race, gender, age, handicap, nation, language, ethnicity, etc. does this bring peace, understanding, acceptance, agreement and tranquillity, or does it simply increase hostility between and among all these sociologically-dissected and diversified groups?

As far as Anthropology goes, The young Anthro prof spent his whole semester indoctrinating us into the belief that we are all rutting animals, no better than the beasts of the jungle. Thanks a lot, "Professor"! I regurgitated his crap on the final and got an "A," but how many students swallowed his depressing pessimism?

Religion should not be in conflict with "science" but the Humanist sciences are pretty well advanced in thier campaigns to undermine and destroy it, and replace it...with what?

The humanist sciences do not know right from wrong. Does psychology have a set of ethics, sociology a set of commandments? Does Anthropology have a moral code? No, no and no. They are adrift in a world of non-oversight, non-self regulation, and can be used, misused and abused by any self-styled tinpot tyrant.

Even "real" science needs to get religion. Wouldn't it be a far greater world if Physicists and Mathematicians refused to work on advanced weapons because it violated some "Moral Code of Science" let's say, Rule 1 - "Do not harm human beings."

Now when you consider the three greatest mass-murderers of the world's history, Adolf, Joe and Mao, all strongly rejected religion (and the nagging attendant morality), but promoted an alternative humanist philosophy, perhaps we can then set out on the path of mutual understanding and agreement about what is good about science, and what is good about religion, and uniting them into a common force for world-wide peace, good-will and buttered popcorn.

shurale
13-04-2015, 12:36
Does mathematics have a moral code? 2 and 2 equals 4 is it moral? 2 and 2 equals 5 is it immoral?

shurale
13-04-2015, 12:38
Psychology doesn't start with Freud-fraud.

rusmeister
13-04-2015, 13:48
Does mathematics have a moral code? 2 and 2 equals 4 is it moral? 2 and 2 equals 5 is it immoral?

Essentially yes. Your analogy is truer than you know. Immorality IS error in understanding the true nature of human behavior and acts and their meaning.
Thinking fornication or petty theft is cool IS like thinking 2+2=5, for instance.

Fantastika
14-04-2015, 09:12
Does mathematics have a moral code? 2 and 2 equals 4 is it moral? 2 and 2 equals 5 is it immoral?

Science does not have a moral code. It is. Pure science is axiomatic. The sun is. The sun is not moral or immoral or amoral or ethical or unethical. Science is true or false.

Scientists (human beings) are moral or immoral, or ethical or unethical.

Fantastika
14-04-2015, 09:14
Psychology doesn't start with Freud-fraud.

The "Father of Psychology" is a fraud? Please, expound! :)

shurale
14-04-2015, 12:16
The "Father of Psychology" is a fraud? Please, expound! :)

To call Freud Father of psychology is the same as calling Lysenko Father of biology.

Fantastika
14-04-2015, 14:54
I thought Lysenko was the Father of Ukrainian propaganda.

shurale
15-04-2015, 14:16
Shurale, I don't understand any of your comments, but I am not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree...

When I was at the university, I took Psych 101 and Soc 101. Later on, at another college I took Anthro 101 and 102.
sic

I referred to Room101 in "1984". 1984 is a book written by George Orwell. He also wrote Animal Farm.
watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3U83QLoATU