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FatAndy
24-03-2015, 14:38
...and Putin looks not responsible.

http://top.rbc.ru/society/24/03/2015/55113f429a79477c1e10b7de - Germanwings A-320 flight from Barcelona to Duess, all 148 onboard seem to be dead (142 passengers + 2 pilots + 4 cabin crew), in the area of French South, dept Alps of Southern Provence.

RIP :(

Benedikt
24-03-2015, 15:07
...and Putin looks not responsible.

http://top.rbc.ru/society/24/03/2015/55113f429a79477c1e10b7de - Germanwings A-320 flight from Barcelona to Duess, all 148 onboard seem to be dead (142 passengers + 2 pilots + 4 cabin crew), in the area of French South, dept Alps of Southern Provence.

RIP :(



https://uk.news.yahoo.com/airbus-a320-crash-in-french-alps--live-blog-105426285.html#csWuuWk
since we all know, bad things happen in three, good things only once.
RIP
they are not sure if there are also Russian travellers on board ,3 pm news now on TV
wreck has been found. but the chances to find survivors are basically none, say the French helpers who are there-

still from the TV news in the background- the plane was 24 years old, and it is assumed it will be a a plane malfunction and not a pilot error or the weather to blame.
Lufthansa pilots are on strike in Germany. Lets just hope this was not the reason for maybe putting/pressing a plane into service that was not fit to fly. German wings is the -cheap/ economic- Lufthansa who together with NIKI and Air Berlin are taking up the capacities from Lufthansa who are on strike already a week or so.

FatAndy
24-03-2015, 21:47
How old is the plane, doesn't matter... maintenance, in-terms parts replacement and regular service is the key. Planer itself lasts forever.

Nobbynumbnuts
24-03-2015, 21:51
They have found the black box apparently so we should know what (perhaps not why) happened pretty quickly..

Benedikt
24-03-2015, 22:38
How old is the plane, doesn't matter... maintenance, in-terms parts replacement and regular service is the key. Planer itself lasts forever.



i can hear it between the lines on the german news. because Lufthansa is on strike, maybe there WAS some corner cutting or whatever... but let the experts come to the conclusion. they found the black box and quickly will find out what has happened and why it has happened.

-German Wings- is a cheapo company in troubles, since quite awhile.http://orf.at/stories/2270410/2270402/
LH wants to change it to European Wings, don't want to be associated with them any more. just reap the profits, that is ok....

TolkoRaz
24-03-2015, 22:39
I think a clue might be that it was apparently serviced yesterday!

Benedikt
24-03-2015, 22:53
I think a clue might be that it was apparently serviced yesterday!



Google for sure will translate...
http://diepresse.com/home/panorama/welt/4690011/Computerfehler_LufthansaAirbus-begann-Sturzflug

Nikki Lauda,a more than experienced pilot, whose line flies under the Umbrella of Lufthansa, also mentioned this as one of two probable causes for the accident.

TolkoRaz
24-03-2015, 22:59
It is far too early to speculate, but when something is working well, it is serviced and then something untoward happens, then I am sure the Investigators will be looking very closely at yesterday's servicing aspect!

Apparently it was tracked descending for 8 minutes by French Radar from 38K Feet to Point of Impact! This was a slow descent.............

Uncle Wally
24-03-2015, 23:11
They have found the black box apparently so we should know what (perhaps not why) happened pretty quickly..




Now if it happened in Ukraine it takes much longer.

Nobbynumbnuts
25-03-2015, 16:16
Looks like they've found the cabin voice recorder. A bit beat up but should still shed some light..

TolkoRaz
25-03-2015, 16:36
Looks like they've found the cabin voice recorder. A bit beat up but should still shed some light..

Why do they call it a Black Box when it is clearly Red / Orange! :confused:

And, if it survives all crashes, why can't they build the plane out of the same material? :confused:

Nobbynumbnuts
25-03-2015, 16:40
Why do they call it a Black Box when it is clearly Red / Orange! :confused:

And, if it survives all crashes, why can't they build the plane out of the same material? :confused:

Good questions...lol
Looks like it took 18 minutes for the plane to come down, not 8 as previously reported. Nightmare for those onboard..

Judge
25-03-2015, 16:40
The plane was descending for 8 minutes and in that time no communication with air traffic control, this is what the news is saying, live coverage France 24, in English.

Nobbynumbnuts
25-03-2015, 16:43
The plane was descending for 8 minutes and in that time no communication with air traffic control, this is what the news is saying, live coverage France 24, in English.

..perhaps the crew were incapacitated (decompression) or rather busy!
A bit of a mystery...

Judge
25-03-2015, 16:53
Good questions...lol
Looks like it took 18 minutes for the plane to come down, not 8 as previously reported. Nightmare for those onboard..

18 minutes, not heard that yet.
If it was 18 minutes and no communication then it's very odd, like the other plane crash which hasn't been found yet.


..perhaps the crew were incapacitated (decompression) or rather busy!
A bit of a mystery...

Hard to believe all crew would be busy, decompression maybe, all should be revealed now then found the voice recorder.

On the news they are still saying 8 minutes, plane was descending like it was about to land.

Nobbynumbnuts
25-03-2015, 16:59
18 minutes, not heard that yet.
If it was 18 minutes and no communication then it's very odd, like the other plane crash which hasn't been found yet.



Hard to believe all crew would be busy, decompression maybe, all should be revealed now then found the voice recorder.

On the news they are still saying 8 minutes, plane was descending like it was about to land.

Saw it on the Independent website also on another, which i can't remember now..
http://www.independent.co.uk

Nobbynumbnuts
25-03-2015, 17:03
18 minutes, not heard that yet.
If it was 18 minutes and no communication then it's very odd, like the other plane crash which hasn't been found yet.



Hard to believe all crew would be busy, decompression maybe, all should be revealed now then found the voice recorder.

On the news they are still saying 8 minutes, plane was descending like it was about to land.

..reports they serviced the nose wheel door yesterday. A fault there could have caused decompression and due to change of air dynamics force the plane to descend.....

Benedikt
25-03-2015, 17:45
And, if it survives all crashes, why can't they build the plane out of the same material? :confused:[/QUOTE]



weight... if they build a plane of composite steel, as they build these -boxes- the plane would never take off. there is something on that on youtube.

Benedikt
25-03-2015, 17:46
..reports they serviced the nose wheel door yesterday. A fault there could have caused decompression and due to change of air dynamics force the plane to descend.....



and most probably knowing you will most probably crash and die?

Nobbynumbnuts
25-03-2015, 18:16
and most probably knowing you will most probably crash and die?

...dreadful for the passengers.
They are reports now it took 18 minutes for the plane to descend, maybe less dramatic and perhaps they thought they might survive it..

TolkoRaz
25-03-2015, 21:55
Latest reports I read are that it gradually descended over a period of 8 - 10 minutes from a height of 38K Feet - Qualified & experienced pilots have commented that would not be abnormal and for some airports it would be a normal descent for a planned landing!

More interestingly, why was there no Distress Call?

Apparently normal conversations were ongoing between the Pilot and Air Traffic Control but a minute later, the plane began to descend!

I know in an emergency, pilots are probably trying to remedy the situation, but no call in an 8 or 10 minute descent seems odd to me! After all, it takes seconds to hit the Transponder Button; they do not necessarily need to speak to Air Traffic Control! :coffee:

Judge
26-03-2015, 06:41
Evidence from a cockpit voice recorder recovered from the Germanwings flight 4U9525 that crashed on Tuesday suggests that one pilot left the cockpit before the plane’s descent and was unable to get back in, according to a report by the New York Times.http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/26/one-pilot-locked-out-germanwings-planes-cockpit-4u9525-claims-new-york-times

Benedikt
26-03-2015, 07:20
Evidence from a cockpit voice recorder recovered from the Germanwings flight 4U9525 that crashed on Tuesday suggests that one pilot left the cockpit before the plane’s descent and was unable to get back in, according to a report by the New York Times.http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/26/one-pilot-locked-out-germanwings-planes-cockpit-4u9525-claims-new-york-times


http://news.yahoo.com/black-box-1st-clues-alpine-jet-crash-killed-064937383.html

but the memory card that reads and stores all mechanical activity for up to the last 25 hours was apparently missing.
now one would assume this is not a memory card like the ones we put into our cameras and mobiles. one must know where it is, was it never put back after a service? was it taken out on purpose?
comments on the social sites go viral (co pilot was a Moslem ,locked out the pilot and crashed the plane... But what about the memory card? If he WAS a Moslem and data would be easy to confirm yes or n. he would like the world to know what he was doing..)

Nobbynumbnuts
26-03-2015, 10:51
Evidence from a cockpit voice recorder recovered from the Germanwings flight 4U9525 that crashed on Tuesday suggests that one pilot left the cockpit before the plane’s descent and was unable to get back in, according to a report by the New York Times.http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/26/one-pilot-locked-out-germanwings-planes-cockpit-4u9525-claims-new-york-times

..Right, The New York Times broke the story, quoting an unnamed investigator.
So what happened to the other pilot? Suicide? incapacitated in some way?

Totally bizarre!

Nobbynumbnuts
26-03-2015, 10:55
http://news.yahoo.com/black-box-1st-clues-alpine-jet-crash-killed-064937383.html

but the memory card that reads and stores all mechanical activity for up to the last 25 hours was apparently missing.
now one would assume this is not a memory card like the ones we put into our cameras and mobiles. one must know where it is, was it never put back after a service? was it taken out on purpose?
comments on the social sites go viral (co pilot was a Moslem ,locked out the pilot and crashed the plane... But what about the memory card? If he WAS a Moslem and data would be easy to confirm yes or n. he would like the world to know what he was doing..)

..i was reading that they need the other box recorder to be able to put the recordings on the cockpit voice recorder into a time sequence. They can hear voices on the voice recorder but don't know exactly when they happened.

Judge
26-03-2015, 14:58
Looks like the plane was crashed deliberately,murder-suicide.

Marseille prosecutor says co-pilot put plane into a dive

The co-pilot of the doomed Germanwings A320 “voluntarily” put the aircraft into a dive and was alive until the moment of impact, the Marseilles prosecutor said citing a transcript of the last 30 minutes of the cockpit voice recorder.

The first 20 minutes of conversation between the pilot and co-pilot was amicable, then the co-pilot took over when the pilot left to make a “natural call”.

At this point, the co-pilot accelerates the descent using the keys of the monitoring system. The prosecutor described it as a “voluntary” action.

In the remaining 10 minutes there are a number of appeals by the pilot to get access to the cockpit but there was no access, the prosecutor said. The pilot knocks on the door but there is not response. There is the sound of breathing from co-pilot until impact.

Nobbynumbnuts
26-03-2015, 15:10
Looks like the plane was crashed deliberately,murder-suicide.

..been reading same. Terrible for the relatives to know it was a crime and completely preventable

FatAndy
26-03-2015, 15:19
and completely preventable
Tell me how? :o

Nobbynumbnuts
26-03-2015, 15:29
Tell me how? :o

..if the co-pilot hadn't decided to murder everyone onboard?

vossy7
26-03-2015, 16:47
..if the co-pilot hadn't decided to murder everyone onboard?

Sorry but that does not mean it was preventable......if this is really what happened then the only way to prevent it was to have added some maintainence to the crew's well being as well as the aircraft......anyone who takes the lives of so many just to satisfy their own selfish needs was clearly very disturbed or a fanatic like the 9/11 ones! But hey it is still all speculation at this point , let the investigators deal with it!

Nobbynumbnuts
26-03-2015, 17:32
Sorry but that does not mean it was preventable......if this is really what happened then the only way to prevent it was to have added some maintainence to the crew's well being as well as the aircraft......anyone who takes the lives of so many just to satisfy their own selfish needs was clearly very disturbed or a fanatic like the 9/11 ones! But hey it is still all speculation at this point , let the investigators deal with it!

..okay perhaps preventable was the wrong choice of word. Point I'm making is it must be even harder for the families to accept what has happened knowing they were all murdered rather than being victims of an accident.

Uncle Wally
26-03-2015, 20:28
..okay perhaps preventable was the wrong choice of word. Point I'm making is it must be even harder for the families to accept what has happened knowing they were all murdered rather than being victims of an accident.



You always look at things in the worst way.


It was an accident, the co-pilot's brain malfunctioned. What does it matter how they died?

bydand
26-03-2015, 20:40
You always look at things in the worst way.


It was an accident, the co-pilot's brain malfunctioned. What does it matter how they died?

I think Nobby shows some sympathy for the grieving families of the victims. Would you say "what does it matter how they died" if your children were onboard? I hope not.

penka
26-03-2015, 20:48
Quite horrible.
Aren't pilots going through a regular medical/ psycho evaluation?

Just read in the Swedish news, the Norwegian is changing their flight routines - prohibiting one person in the cockpit at all times.

Nobbynumbnuts
26-03-2015, 20:59
Quite horrible.
Aren't pilots going through a regular medical/ psycho evaluation?

Just read in the Swedish news, the Norwegian is changing their flight routines - prohibiting one person in the cockpit at all times.

..am i missing something or how does a pilot visit the toilet then?

penka
26-03-2015, 21:12
..am i missing something or how does a pilot visit the toilet then?

Good question. In the article, they refer to the Norwegian and the EasyJet. Here (you'll have to use google translate, but it's a short text):

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article20532787.ab

Nobbynumbnuts
26-03-2015, 21:12
..Easyjet have also announced that both pilots to be in the cockpit at all times, from tomorrow.

..can a pilot concentrate if he's desperate for a p*ss? :jawdrop:

bydand
26-03-2015, 21:15
..am i missing something or how does a pilot visit the toilet then?

Another crew member has to remain in the cockpit till the other returns. Already US law.

Nobbynumbnuts
26-03-2015, 21:19
Another crew member has to remain in the cockpit till the other returns. Already US law.

Didn't know that.
But doesn't it all start to get complicated now? Another member of the crew who wouldn't normally be in the cockpit is now alone in there with the other pilot?

Uncle Wally
26-03-2015, 21:22
I think Nobby shows some sympathy for the grieving families of the victims. Would you say "what does it matter how they died" if your children were onboard? I hope not.



I you too huh?

Do you grieve more or less depending on how someone died? I think not.

Uncle Wally
26-03-2015, 21:27
Didn't know that.
But doesn't it all start to get complicated now? Another member of the crew who wouldn't normally be in the cockpit is now alone in there with the other pilot?



You have a better plan?

Nobbynumbnuts
26-03-2015, 21:36
..it's being reported that the parents of the pilot are at the crash site with other victims family members. They have now been separated from the rest........surreal!

TolkoRaz
26-03-2015, 22:39
Shocking, its not the first time this has happened, but WTF!

Imagine the passengers (and crew) as they heard the Pilot trying to break into the cockpit to regain control of the aircraft! That must have been a very long & distressing 5 - 8 minutes! :(

Nobbynumbnuts
26-03-2015, 22:46
Shocking, its not the first time this has happened, but WTF!

Imagine the passengers (and crew) as they heard the Pilot trying to break into the cockpit to regain control of the aircraft! That must have been a very long & distressing 5 - 8 minutes! :(

..it's one of the craziest, terrible things i've heard in a long time...............all those school kids!! :(

Kartoshka
26-03-2015, 22:58
Sif this is really what happened then the only way to prevent it was to have added some maintainence to the crew's well being as well as the aircraft...

I disagree with you; there are several ways this could have been prevented. I actually find it rather surprising that it is possible for a pilot/co-pilot to be locked out of the cockpit. To avoid such a situation in the future, two people should always be present in the cockpit (a member of the cabin crew could relieve a pilot or co-pilot), and cockpit doors so secure that a pilot can be locked out of that cabin by a colleague should be rethought.

Terrible tragedy. But so unusual. I can't imagine there are many people in the world who would plan a suicide like that :(

Luckily, as the descent was not rapid, they don't think that passengers would have been aware of the impending disaster until moments before the crash. Horrible, but less horrible than being aware that you're going to die but being unable to do anything to stop it. Small comfort, but better than nothing. When I heard the news this morning, which wasn't very detailed at that point, I understood that everyone had plenty of time to panic but no time to do anything about it.

TolkoRaz
26-03-2015, 23:31
I disagree with you; there are several ways this could have been prevented. I actually find it rather surprising that it is possible for a pilot/co-pilot to be locked out of the cockpit. To avoid such a situation in the future, two people should always be present in the cockpit (a member of the cabin crew could relieve a pilot or co-pilot), and cockpit doors so secure that a pilot can be locked out of that cabin by a colleague should be rethought.

Terrible tragedy. But so unusual. I can't imagine there are many people in the world who would plan a suicide like that :(

Luckily, as the descent was not rapid, they don't think that passengers would have been aware of the impending disaster until moments before the crash. Horrible, but less horrible than being aware that you're going to die but being unable to do anything to stop it. Small comfort, but better than nothing. When I heard the news this morning, which wasn't very detailed at that point, I understood that everyone had plenty of time to panic but no time to do anything about it.

The recording confirms screaming passengers as the pilot tried to smash his way into the cockpit - sadly, they were aware of their impending fate! :(

Kartoshka
26-03-2015, 23:58
Yes, but not for long. Not for the whole 8 minutes of the descent.

drbobguy
27-03-2015, 00:04
Crazy stuff, reminds me of the Malaysia airlines flight shot down by a Russian-supplied Buk missile last summer.

Nobbynumbnuts
27-03-2015, 00:07
Yes, but not for long. Not for the whole 8 minutes of the descent.

..the French prosecutor said they were aware for the last few seconds.

TolkoRaz
27-03-2015, 00:15
Lets hope so, but I doubt it! The Pilot must have been trying to smash his way in through that door for more than just a few seconds!

Horrible to think about it!

Nobbynumbnuts
27-03-2015, 01:02
Lets hope so, but I doubt it! The Pilot must have been trying to smash his way in through that door for more than just a few seconds!

Horrible to think about it!

...you may well be right. Perhaps the French prosecutor doesn't want to further upset the families of the victims. But the truth will out in the end..

natlee
27-03-2015, 01:04
To think that we (some of us regularly) are putting our lives in the hands of A person whose mental state is yet to be established... RIP

vossy7
27-03-2015, 01:14
Lets hope so, but I doubt it! The Pilot must have been trying to smash his way in through that door for more than just a few seconds!

Horrible to think about it!

Don't want too ,just to horrific for words, can't believe there is no fail safe for events like this , a simple lock and key or remote control device to enable the the person to gain access . I know people will say then a terrorist could get hold of it, hey they could storm the cockpit as any crew member comes out.....keep them in there.
If I was a relative of any of those poor innocent souls my grief would be shared with a lot of anger !

Nobbynumbnuts
27-03-2015, 02:00
To think that we (some of us regularly) are putting our lives in the hands of A person whose mental state is yet to be established... RIP

..incidents like these must be pushing us closer to the day when planes fly themselves with help from the ground.

Kartoshka
27-03-2015, 02:27
To think that we (some of us regularly) are putting our lives in the hands of A person whose mental state is yet to be established...

We all do this regularly. When we get in a car, has anyone checked the mental state of all the other drivers on the road? Are mental checks necessary for train drivers, taxi driver, marshrutka drivers? Going to a museum, a shopping centre, a restaurant, or even just walking down the road, is taking your life in your hands, because no-one has checked the mental state of all the other pedestrians: one of them could be a gunman or a suicide bomber.

Pilot suicide is terribly tragic, and if something can be done to increase safety in the unlikely event of a plane being piloted by a suicidal pilot, then it should be done. But I don't believe mental checks are the answer.

vossy7
27-03-2015, 03:07
We all do this regularly. When we get in a car, has anyone checked the mental state of all the other drivers on the road? Are mental checks necessary for train drivers, taxi driver, marshrutka drivers? Going to a museum, a shopping centre, a restaurant, or even just walking down the road, is taking your life in your hands, because no-one has checked the mental state of all the other pedestrians: one of them could be a gunman or a suicide bomber.

Pilot suicide is terribly tragic, and if something can be done to increase safety in the unlikely event of a plane being piloted by a suicidal pilot, then it should be done. But I don't believe mental checks are the answer.

Well as they say ,of all the things likely to wrong in a vehicle the most likely to fail is the nut holding the steering wheel!

Judge
27-03-2015, 08:25
It's being reported the co-pilot had a mental illness,depression and that he recently split up with gf, so instead of killing himself alone ,for only a few to remember him, he decides on mass murder and bring pain and misery to 1000s of others ,this way he will be remembered,narcissistic personality?

Benedikt
27-03-2015, 09:08
...you may well be right. Perhaps the French prosecutor doesn't want to further upset the families of the victims. But the truth will out in the end..



or maybe it is 90...
this is the serial about plane crashes. though they bring only cases where it has been proven what has happened. and that is often 3 or 4 years abck. or even longer.

Judge
27-03-2015, 12:39
If this is true,the co-pilot shouldn't have been flying..


The Guardian’s Luke Harding, our former Berlin correspondent, reports a potentially alarming development coming out of the German newspaper Bild Zeitung.

There is no way of confirming this independently at the moment but the paper claims Lubitz stopped his training to be a pilot six years ago because he was suffering from “psychological problems”.

On Thursday Lufthansa’s chief executive Carsten Spohr declined to give details of his medical history.

The newspaper, however, said that the Lufthansa flight school in Phoenix designated Lubitz at the time as “not suitable for flying”.

He spent a year-and-a-half receiving psychiatric treatment, it said. Several times he was forced to repeat his flying classes because of depression, before he successfully finished his training. In 2009 he was diagnosed with a “severe depressive episode”, Bild reported.

He was given “special regular medical examination” by a doctor as well as the coding “SIC”. This coding also appeared on his pilot’s license.

Citing police sources, Bild said the investigation is examining whether Lubitz had been suffering from a “personal life crisis”.

bydand
27-03-2015, 13:03
Other sources:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/germanwings-crash-probe-turns-on-depressed-co-pilot/ar-AAa4x9r
The co-pilot sought psychiatric help for "a bout of heavy depression" in 2009 and was still getting assistance from doctors, Bild daily said, quoting documents from Germany's air transport regulator Luftfahrtbundesamt (LBA).

He was still receiving "regular, individualised medical" treatment, Bild reported, adding that Germanwings' parent company Lufthansa had transmitted this information to the LBA.

Lufthansa CEO Carsten Spohr said that Lubitz had suspended his pilot training, which began in 2008, "for a certain period", before restarting and qualifying for the Airbus A320 in 2013.

According to Bild, those setbacks were linked to "depressions and anxiety attacks".

The pilot's records were due to be examined by experts in Germany Friday before being handed to French investigators, Bild reported.



http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/few-precedents-are-seen-as-germanwings-investigation-points-to-deliberate-crash/ar-AAa3Tx3
Experts on suicide say that the psychology of those who combine suicide with mass murder may differ in significant ways from those who limit themselves to taking their own lives. A pilot who crashes a plane carrying hundreds of passengers is probably more like the perpetrator of a mass shooting, said Michelle Cornette, executive director of the American Association of Suicidology.

“This is not so different in some ways from someone who walks into a school and kills a bunch of people, and then kills themselves,” she said.

Nobbynumbnuts
27-03-2015, 13:20
If this is true,the co-pilot shouldn't have been flying..

figures suggest that 1 in 4 people suffer depression at some time in their lives. That means there are probably thousands of pilots out there flying with depression right now

Judge
27-03-2015, 13:40
figures suggest that 1 in 4 people suffer depression at some time in their lives. That means there are probably thousands of pilots out there flying with depression right now

Maybe true, this guy's depression was serious enough for his training to be stopped ..

penka
27-03-2015, 14:04
Maybe true, this guy's depression was serious enough for his training to be stopped ..

And how on earth was he deemed fit to fly with such medical record?

penka
27-03-2015, 14:06
figures suggest that 1 in 4 people suffer depression at some time in their lives. That means there are probably thousands of pilots out there flying with depression right now

Feeling blue, aka "depressed" is not the same as a clinical depression, which is a psychiatric disorder. To my knowledge, it can be held in check (medication, mainly), but it is not curable.

Nobbynumbnuts
27-03-2015, 14:06
Maybe true, this guy's depression was serious enough for his training to be stopped ..

..right there should have been a red flag somewhere.
But most times we're reliant on the pilot reporting it. Many people don't see it as an illness, lot of stigma attached to it. But it's surprisingly common

penka
27-03-2015, 14:37
..right there should have been a red flag somewhere.
But most times we're reliant on the pilot reporting it. Many people don't see it as an illness, lot of stigma attached to it. But it's surprisingly common

You are joking....

Nobbynumbnuts
27-03-2015, 14:41
You are joking....

..don't think so. Do all pilots (or anyone for that matter) report a bout of depression to to the doctor?

penka
27-03-2015, 14:57
..don't think so. Do all pilots (or anyone for that matter) report a bout of depression to to the doctor?

Not sure it works that way. For the tons of reasons, from the reasoning "it will pass" to the money issue.

I know a woman who's late husband was a highly qualified commercial pilot. With a few months left to retirement and a developing heart condition. Something, that he somehow, managed to conceal. Died in his sleep in NY the night before taking the machine, the crew and the passages back to Stockholm.

Nobbynumbnuts
27-03-2015, 15:08
Not sure it works that way. For the tons of reasons, from the reasoning "it will pass" to the money issue.

I know a woman who's late husband was a highly qualified commercial pilot. With a few months left to retirement and a developing heart condition. Something, that he somehow, managed to conceal. Died in his sleep in NY the night before taking the machine, the crew and the passages back to Stockholm.

..What?
There's a lot of stigma surrounding depression, people don't want to talk about it or admit to it. They will hide it, deny it.
I think most are not going to admit it to their employer if they think it will effect their employment prospects/earnings

AstarD
27-03-2015, 15:17
..What?
There's a lot of stigma surrounding depression, people don't want to talk about it or admit to it. They will hide it, deny it.
I think most are not going to admit it to their employer if they think it will effect their employment prospects/earnings
I guess we can see why there might be a bit of stigma attached to it.

TolkoRaz
27-03-2015, 15:24
..incidents like these must be pushing us closer to the day when planes fly themselves with help from the ground.

May be, but this would make them vulnerable to 'others' taking control of the plane and crashing it - communications channels would have to be very heavily encrypted etc.

Would you be happy flying in a Remotely Piloted Airliner? :eek:

Nobbynumbnuts
27-03-2015, 15:39
May be, but this would make them vulnerable to 'others' taking control of the plane and crashing it - communications channels would have to be very heavily encrypted etc.

Would you be happy flying in a Remotely Piloted Airliner? :eek:


..correct but technological advances might resolve those problems in the future.

Interesting question. I live right by the DLR in London and it's driver free. Okay, huge leap from a driverless train to a pilotless plane but no on would have done it not so long ago. It's about changing peoples perceptions, planes can fly these days without pilots. Two pilots on every plane when the auto pilot is so capable?

Ibanez
27-03-2015, 16:12
Seems like police found a torn up doctors note forbidding him to fly - covering the time of his flight - in his apartment :-(

FatAndy
27-03-2015, 16:50
Okay, huge leap from a driverless train to a pilotless plane but no on would have done it not so long ago. It's about changing peoples perceptions, planes can fly these days without pilots. Two pilots on every plane when the auto pilot is so capable?
Train moves along one axis, one direction (well, if we consider simplest "round" link between airport terminals). Airplane moves on 3 axis, plus rotations, in the medium of floating density, plus winds, plus dewpoints, plus magnetic declination, plus astro-orientation etc.


Seems like police found a torn up doctors note forbidding him to fly - covering the time of his flight - in his apartment :-(
Maktub. There is no almighty and comprehensive StaSi anymore in Germany...

TolkoRaz
27-03-2015, 17:48
..correct but technological advances might resolve those problems in the future.

Interesting question. I live right by the DLR in London and it's driver free. Okay, huge leap from a driverless train to a pilotless plane but no on would have done it not so long ago. It's about changing peoples perceptions, planes can fly these days without pilots. Two pilots on every plane when the auto pilot is so capable?

Pilots are not necessarily needed now. I understand that a Passenger or a Stewardess can land AirBusses in an emergency by being told which buttons to hit by Air Traffic Control etc - the landing might not be perfect, but the plane will land safely.

But, when electronics mal-function, humans will be required to take control and hopefully successfully recover the situation.

bydand
27-03-2015, 20:13
"Lubitz lived with his parents in his small home town of Montabaur in the Rhineland"

I think that's all Penka needs to know, to know...

Uncle Wally
27-03-2015, 20:46
To think that we (some of us regularly) are putting our lives in the hands of A person whose mental state is yet to be established... RIP



Sorry to tell you this dear but your life is not in your hands either. If you tried to stay home all the time just to stay safe and alive you could slip and fall in the bathtub, because if it's your time to go there is nothing you can do about it. So why worry, be happy and live no matter where that takes you or who is taking you there.

Uncle Wally
27-03-2015, 20:51
..correct but technological advances might resolve those problems in the future.

Interesting question. I live right by the DLR in London and it's driver free. Okay, huge leap from a driverless train to a pilotless plane but no on would have done it not so long ago. It's about changing peoples perceptions, planes can fly these days without pilots. Two pilots on every plane when the auto pilot is so capable?



What's stopping a guy on the ground from crashing a plane? At least he won't die. I would think it more dangerous.

Uncle Wally
27-03-2015, 20:59
..What?
There's a lot of stigma surrounding depression, people don't want to talk about it or admit to it. They will hide it, deny it.
I think most are not going to admit it to their employer if they think it will effect their employment prospects/earnings



You seem to know alot about that.


The only way to remedy this is to have the airlines have their own doctors check pilots on a regular basis. Why this is not already done is beyond me. This way there is less chance an unfit pilot will be flying a plane. As I understand it this is the 8th time this has happened in 9 years!


They have people who check how worthy a plane is but nobody is checking how worthy a pilot? That's crazy!

Uncle Wally
27-03-2015, 21:03
Pilots are not necessarily needed now. I understand that a Passenger or a Stewardess can land AirBusses in an emergency by being told which buttons to hit by Air Traffic Control etc - the landing might not be perfect, but the plane will land safely.

But, when electronics mal-function, humans will be required to take control and hopefully successfully recover the situation.



Autopilot can land planes now. Many times they still do.

penka
27-03-2015, 21:04
..correct but technological advances might resolve those problems in the future.

Interesting question. I live right by the DLR in London and it's driver free. Okay, huge leap from a driverless train to a pilotless plane but no on would have done it not so long ago. It's about changing peoples perceptions, planes can fly these days without pilots. Two pilots on every plane when the auto pilot is so capable?

Don't tell me you are living in Lewisham!:D

penka
27-03-2015, 21:06
"Lubitz lived with his parents in his small home town of Montabaur in the Rhineland"

I think that's all Penka needs to know, to know...

Er... the guy was 28 not 48.

Nobbynumbnuts
27-03-2015, 21:24
Don't tell me you are living in Lewisham!:D

..no, Docklands ;)

Benedikt
27-03-2015, 21:54
but for that they need a change in law. and quickly. police checked the home of the co pilot. and they found doctors slips that he was unfit for work. one oven for the day he crashed the plane. but he just tore them up and never reported it to the employer, that is German wings... so a deeply depressed, manic man was let loose.
should a doctor in cases like this have the DUTY to report the findings to an employer? after all here are lives at stake. a pilot is different from a person who maybe works in a park... i think,and not only Germany, should quickly look into this and make a sensibel and legal decision.

Kartoshka
27-03-2015, 22:02
We don't know yet what his illness was. It is speculation that it was depression. In fact, the hospital that he visited recently has been quoted as saying his illness was physical, not mental.

Nobbynumbnuts
27-03-2015, 22:09
but for that they need a change in law. and quickly. police checked the home of the co pilot. and they found doctors slips that he was unfit for work. one oven for the day he crashed the plane. but he just tore them up and never reported it to the employer, that is German wings... so a deeply depressed, manic man was let loose.
should a doctor in cases like this have the DUTY to report the findings to an employer? after all here are lives at stake. a pilot is different from a person who maybe works in a park... i think,and not only Germany, should quickly look into this and make a sensibel and legal decision.

..in Europe pilots are medically checked every 6 months to one year depending on age. But this doesn't include a detailed mental examination. They are usually just given a questionnaire to answer generic questions about their mental condition.

Expect all that to change...;)

penka
27-03-2015, 22:17
but for that they need a change in law. and quickly. police checked the home of the co pilot. and they found doctors slips that he was unfit for work. one oven for the day he crashed the plane. but he just tore them up and never reported it to the employer, that is German wings... so a deeply depressed, manic man was let loose.
should a doctor in cases like this have the DUTY to report the findings to an employer? after all here are lives at stake. a pilot is different from a person who maybe works in a park... i think,and not only Germany, should quickly look into this and make a sensibel and legal decision.

Well, if the doc was seen outside the "employer register", reporting anything would be a breach. A big no-no. Are they to make changes to the legislation, based on exceptions or for everyone - we know, you're suicidal, we'll bazoon it all over? It is a tricky situation.

TolkoRaz
27-03-2015, 22:38
OK, so who is going to check the Surgeon for the state of his mental mind before you go to have a simple operation - he might chop off your head or cut out your heart!

There is only so much one can do to guard against our fellow human's actions.

How many highly vetted bodyguards have killed the person they were supposed to be guarding?

How many parents have killed their own children etc..........?

What about the people who have their fingers on the button of massive weaponry? Yes, there are dual controls etc, but human ingenuity can overcome such measures! ;)

I think in this specific case, however tragic, we should just be grateful that the Co-Pilot had not decided to land on Dusseldorf city centre or fly to another highly populated target! This is what worries me when I see airplanes flying over cities - it would be so easy to nose-dive towards a heavily populated place.

Benedikt
28-03-2015, 09:58
Expect all that to change...;)[/QUOTE]

no one will admit freely that he has a problem....( not that i would either, i think)

natlee
28-03-2015, 11:09
OK, so who is going to check the Surgeon for the state of his mental mind before you go to have a simple operation - he might chop off your head or cut out your heart!

There is only so much one can do to guard against our fellow human's actions.

How many highly vetted bodyguards have killed the person they were supposed to be guarding?

How many parents have killed their own children etc..........?

What about the people who have their fingers on the button of massive weaponry? Yes, there are dual controls etc, but human ingenuity can overcome such measures! ;)

I think in this specific case, however tragic, we should just be grateful that the Co-Pilot had not decided to land on Dusseldorf city centre or fly to another highly populated target! This is what worries me when I see airplanes flying over cities - it would be so easy to nose-dive towards a heavily populated place. That's great and all, but he was in charge of how many people?

Not that it matters for the person on the operating table or the relatives, but at least a surgeon is in charge of one person's life at any one time. As far as parents killing their own children - nothing can be done about those unless something spotted by neighbors/friends/relatives/etc. in time but do you have any idea what sort of 'hell' people wanting to adopt are being put through, as a rule, before they're given a child? And that's a good thing really (although more often than not is being taken to a crazy level as are most things these days!)

Judge
28-03-2015, 12:41
That's great and all, but he was in charge of how many people?

Not that it matters for the person on the operating table or the relatives, but at least a surgeon is in charge of one person's life at any one time.

True, and a surgeon is surrounded by many others on the op table, but

A doctor can be in charge of 100s of people,

Take the case of doctor Harold Shipman,he killed 100s of his patients before anyone suspected anything,with Shipman there were red flags that should have been noticed by other doctors but nothing, he carried on killing for decades. ..

natlee
28-03-2015, 17:22
True, and a surgeon is surrounded by many others on the op table, but

A doctor can be in charge of 100s of people,

Take the case of doctor Harold Shipman,he killed 100s of his patients before anyone suspected anything,with Shipman there were red flags that should have been noticed by other doctors but nothing, he carried on killing for decades. .. Oh yes! Sh*t, too, happens... horrible! :(

Benedikt
28-03-2015, 17:34
True, and a surgeon is surrounded by many others on the op table, but

A doctor can be in charge of 100s of people,

Take the case of doctor Harold Shipman,he killed 100s of his patients before anyone suspected anything,with Shipman there were red flags that should have been noticed by other doctors but nothing, he carried on killing for decades. ..

but did not say anything. for whatever reasons. was he their superior? were they afraid to lose their job? or just did not want to say anything? why-me first-,let others do it?
excuses and reasons are many...

Judge
28-03-2015, 22:10
but did not say anything. for whatever reasons. was he their superior? were they afraid to lose their job? or just did not want to say anything? why-me first-,let others do it?
excuses and reasons are many...

Some people did say something,they even informed the police,but the police didn't fully investigate him at the time.
read about it here
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2005/aug/25/health.shipman

Judge
28-03-2015, 22:13
This is what the pilot is suppose to have said to his ex gf,


According to the German newspaper Bild, a former girlfriend of Lubitz, identified only as Mary W, said he had told her last year: “One day I will do something that will change the whole system, and then all will know my name and remember it.”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/27/germanwings-co-pilot-andreas-lubitzs-background-under-scrutiny

Benedikt
29-03-2015, 07:07
[QUOTE=Judge;1414987]This is what the pilot is suppose to have said to his ex gf,




the person who sold him the sausages and mustard at a Würstlstand? the lady who cleaned the toilets and saw him once i na while at the airport using the washroom? the milkman maybe or the mailman? well, let them have their 2 minutes on FB, in the press and on TV.

Uncle Wally
29-03-2015, 22:00
Another plane crashed today in Canada. Hit electrical lines on landing, no people died. The plane lost a wing when it hit the lines. I wonder how on 9/11 planes went ripping through steel poles and smashing through reinforced concrete so easily but today electrical lines ripped off a wing.

Benedikt
30-03-2015, 06:19
Another plane crashed today in Canada. Hit electrical lines on landing, no people died. The plane lost a wing when it hit the lines. I wonder how on 9/11 planes went ripping through steel poles and smashing through reinforced concrete so easily but today electrical lines ripped off a wing.



9/11 it were Boeings...
or something to that effect they want to believe us...9/11 is the greatest cover up and ever.

Nobbynumbnuts
30-03-2015, 14:23
According to the Independent this morning, the passengers were screaming for around 5 minutes. Horrific!

Difficult to talk about but the worse the stress the passengers are under prior to crash the more compensation the families will receive. I was also reading that families from different countries receive different amounts of compensation. This is due to the fact that some countries place more or less value on human suffering...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germanwings-plane-crash-transcript-reveals-passengers-screamed-for-over-five-minutes-before-plane-crashed-into-mountain-10142936.html

penka
30-03-2015, 18:02
According to the Independent this morning, the passengers were screaming for around 5 minutes. Horrific!

Difficult to talk about but the worse the stress the passengers are under prior to crash the more compensation the families will receive. I was also reading that families from different countries receive different amounts of compensation. This is due to the fact that some countries place more or less value on human suffering...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germanwings-plane-crash-transcript-reveals-passengers-screamed-for-over-five-minutes-before-plane-crashed-into-mountain-10142936.html

Compensations. Is that the reason behind ruling out the "unpremeditated murder"?

Nobbynumbnuts
30-03-2015, 18:40
Compensations. Is that the reason behind ruling out the "unpremeditated murder"?

..i haven't seen any official reason for the crash. Might be a bit early, they need to find the other black box and finish any inquiry..

On another note the Independent is quoting prosecutors as saying the co-pilot had been in therapy for suicidal tendencies.

penka
30-03-2015, 18:59
..i haven't seen any official reason for the crash. Might be a bit early, they need to find the other black box and finish any inquiry..

On another note the Independent is quoting prosecutors as saying the co-pilot had been in therapy for suicidal tendencies.

Suicidal tendencies, psychosomatic disorders (whatever they might mean by that? - asthma is considered to be one of such disorders), failing sight - that's what I've read. By all means, everything points towards the severe deficiencies in the air-company's medical routines.

Nobbynumbnuts
30-03-2015, 19:15
Suicidal tendencies, psychosomatic disorders (whatever they might mean by that? - asthma is considered to be one of such disorders), failing sight - that's what I've read. By all means, everything points towards the severe deficiencies in the air-company's medical routines.

He was visiting a regular GP, not the airlines doctors. That's who gave him the 'sick note' and who he was visiting for suicidal tendencies before and during training.
Difficulty is a regular GP cannot share info about a patient, by law. Doctor-patient confidentiality. Think the law is the same in Germany as well...

Perhaps you could check on wiki? :clown:

FatAndy
30-03-2015, 19:41
Past tomorrow I depart to Barnaul... by... yep, A320. Insha alla...

Nobbynumbnuts
30-03-2015, 19:44
Past tomorrow I depart to Barnaul... by... yep, A320. Insha alla...

Have a pleasant trip and try not to stare at the pilots......;)

penka
30-03-2015, 21:26
He was visiting a regular GP, not the airlines doctors. That's who gave him the 'sick note' and who he was visiting for suicidal tendencies before and during training.
Difficulty is a regular GP cannot share info about a patient, by law. Doctor-patient confidentiality. Think the law is the same in Germany as well...

Perhaps you could check on wiki? :clown:

That's given, no need for wiki.

I wonder though if the regular psycho evaluations are a part of the medical routine. And if so, how they missed the guy was unstable. That is, perhaps, one of the key issues that should be scrutinised if one is to learn anything from this tragedy.

But yes, we are all aware of the fact, it is impossible to foresee all the eventualities.

Uncle Wally
31-03-2015, 03:52
Wow you know in only 48 hours they have the whole thing figured out. I wonder if we'll ever find out what and who brought MH17 down?

Fantastika
02-04-2015, 07:13
As to what psychiatric drugs the pilot was on, the hospital says that is "private information."

He killed 150 people, slowly torturing them with the knowledge of their impending demise, and the hospital and doctors claim they don't have to reveal anything about the meds involved which led to this huge mass murder.

Does anyone else find this outrageous?

If the pilot was drunk, he would not be allowed to fly. But if he is rollercoastering on psychotropic drugs, well, that's okay?

Nobbynumbnuts
02-04-2015, 07:30
As to what psychiatric drugs the pilot was on, the hospital says that is "private information."

He killed 150 people, slowly torturing them with the knowledge of their impending demise, and the hospital and doctors claim they don't have to reveal anything about the meds involved which led to this huge mass murder.

Does anyone else find this outrageous?

If the pilot was drunk, he would not be allowed to fly. But if he is rollercoastering on psychotropic drugs, well, that's okay?

They can't disclose it by law. Just like your doctor cannot diclose your medical records to a third party. The investigators will have to get a subpoena or writ to get the information, it will come out in time. Someone might leak it but in this day and age everyone wants everything now,now.

What's also interesting is this video of what took place on the plane that has apparently been found. It was supposedly on a SIM pulled from a mobile found at the scene. A couple of newspapers have confirmed it's existence and said it's absolutely genuine and the authorities have said it doesn't exist. Interesting to see how that's going to play out....

Fantastika
02-04-2015, 07:43
They can't disclose it by law.

Yes, they "have a law." Saudi Arabia has a law against having a bible.

If I get drunk, and crash my truck into a bus and kill 35 people, then, at the trial, I will just tell the court that what I had to drink is "private information" and none of their business.

I know of cases where Germans were arrested for flying an airplane drunk, and driving a bus, drunk. Flying an airplane on all mind-altering substances, not just alcohol, should be illegal.

If you look at the history of school shootings and mass shootings in the USA, you will find a common factor - psychiatric care, and psychotropic drugs. The Germanwings incident is just one more example.

Nobbynumbnuts
02-04-2015, 07:58
Yes, they "have a law." Saudi Arabia has a law against having a bible.

If I get drunk, and crash my truck into a bus and kill 35 people, then, at the trial, I will just tell the court that what I had to drink is "private information" and none of their business.

I know of cases where Germans were arrested for flying an airplane drunk, and driving a bus, drunk. Flying an airplane on all mind-altering substances, not just alcohol, should be illegal.

If you look at the history of school shootings and mass shootings in the USA, you will find a common factor - psychiatric care, and psychotropic drugs. The Germanwings incident is just one more example.


The problem arises because the pilot is dead (allegedly) That cannot be confirmed until the government issues a death certificate. With the death certificate the investigators can then get the writ and the medical records then be released.

If your in court on drink driving charges the police will take a breathalyzer test road side or a blood test at the hospital or police station. It doesn't matter what you say, they have the evidence that your drunk.

I agree, maybe the airlines need to test pilots for substances. Either randomly or before they enter the cockpit. There's going to be some major changes as a result of this...

Fantastika
02-04-2015, 08:31
If your in court on drink driving charges the police will take a breathalyzer test road side or a blood test at the hospital or police station. It doesn't matter what you say, they have the evidence that your drunk.


The breathalyzer test and a blood test are "medical information," just as psychiatric evaluation, blood test for drugs, and drug prescriptions are "medical information."

It's either private information or it isn't private information. You can't have it both ways. If it relates to one mind-altering substance, claim it is public information, but if it relates to a different mind-altering substance, claim it is private information.