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SalTheReturn
19-02-2008, 10:23
Yesterday for the first time ever I came across what in english come under the name of "subjunctive"

what the big deal? many languages have subjunctives, even more than one (4 in italian, and more in spanish)

i did not know you had to write

I suggested that she READ the book

and you dont write READS

what the hell is this subjunctive in english and in what construction i use it?

non native speakers, did you know that?

MickeyTong
19-02-2008, 10:55
If I were (not was) an English teacher, I'd be able to explain it. It is important that good advice be given, as it were.

elis
19-02-2008, 11:11
Sal,

This from bartleby.com.


"the forms. If she were coming, she would be here by now. I insist that the chairman resign! Their main demand was that the lawsuit be dropped. These sentences all contain verbs in the subjunctive mood, which is used chiefly to express the speaker’s attitude about the likelihood or factuality of a given situation. If the verbs were in the indicative mood, we would expect she was coming in the first sentence, the chairman resigns in the second, and the lawsuit is dropped in the third. 1
English has had a subjunctive mood since Old English times, but most of the functions of the old subjunctive have been taken over by auxiliary verbs like may and should, and the subjunctive survives only in very limited situations. It has a present and past form. The present form is identical to the base form of the verb, so you only notice it in the third person singular, which has no final -s, and in the case of the verb be, which has the form be instead of am, is, and are. The past subjunctive is identical with the past tense except in the case of the verb be, which uses were for all persons: If I were rich …, If he were rich …, If they were rich…. 2
The present subjunctive is most familiar to us in formulaic expressions such as God help him, be that as it may, come what may, and suffice it to say. It also occurs in that clauses used to state commands or to express intentions or necessity:
We insist that he do the job properly.
The committee proposes that she be appointed treasurer immediately.
It is essential that we be informed of your plans.
3
Other functions include use in some conditional clauses and clauses that make concessions or express purpose. In these cases the subjunctive carries a formal tone:
Whether he be opposed to the plan or not, we must seek his opinion.
Even though he be opposed to the plan, we must try to implement it.
They are rewriting the proposal so that it not contradict new zoning laws.
4
The subjunctive is not required in such sentences, however, and you can use indicative forms if you prefer (whether he is opposed …). 5
The past subjunctive is sometimes called the were subjunctive, since were is the only subjunctive form that is distinct from the indicative past tense. It appears chiefly in if clauses and in a few other constructions expressing hypothetical conditions:
If he were sorry, he’d have apologized by now.
I wish she weren’t going away.
She’s already acting as if she were going to be promoted.
Suppose she were to resign, what would you do then?
6
if clauses—the traditional rules. According to traditional rules, you use the subjunctive to describe an occurrence that you have presupposed to be contrary to fact: if I were ten years younger, if America were still a British Colony. The verb in the main clause of these sentences must then contain the verb would or (less frequently) should: If I were ten years younger, I would consider entering the marathon. If America were still a British colony, we would all be drinking tea in the afternoon. When the situation described by the if clause is not presupposed to be false, however, that clause must contain an indicative verb. The form of verb in the main clause will depend on your intended meaning: If Hamlet was really written by Marlowe, as many have argued, then we have underestimated Marlowe’s genius. If Kevin was out all day, then it makes sense that he couldn’t answer the phone. 7
Remember, just because the modal verb would appears in the main clause, this doesn’t mean that the verb in the if clause must be in the subjunctive if the content of that clause is not presupposed to be false: If I was (not were) to accept their offer—which I’m still considering—I would have to start the new job on May 2. He would always call her from the office if he was (not were) going to be late for dinner. 8
Another traditional rule states that you are not supposed to use the subjunctive following verbs such as ask or wonder in if clauses that express indirect questions, even if the content of the question is presumed to be contrary to fact: We wondered if dinner was (not were) included in the room price. Some of the people we met even asked us if California was (not were) an island. 9
if clauses—the reality. In practice, of course, many people ignore the rules. In fact, over the last 200 years even well-respected writers have tended to use the indicative was where the traditional rule would require the subjunctive were. A usage such as If I was the only boy in the world may break the rules, but it sounds perfectly natural. 10
subjunctive after wish. Yet another traditional rule requires you to use were rather than was in a contrary-to-fact statement that follows the verb wish: I wish I were (not was) lighter on my feet. Many writers continue to insist on this rule, but the indicative was in such clauses can be found in the works of many well-known writers. 11
would have for had. In spoken English, there is a growing tendency to use would have in place of the subjunctive had in contrary-to-fact clauses, such as If she would have (instead of if she had) only listened to me, this would never have happened. But this usage is still widely considered an error in writing. Only 14 percent of the Usage Panel accepts it in the previously cited sentence, and a similar amount—but 16 percent—accepts it in the sentence I wish you would have told me about this sooner. 12
didn’t for hadn’t. In speech people often substitute didn’t for the subjunctive hadn’t in if clauses, such as If I didn’t have (instead of if I hadn’t had) my seatbelt on, I would be dead. This usage is also considered nonstandard, however. Seventy-one percent of the Usage Panel rejects it, although 18 percent feel it is acceptable in informal contexts. 13
hadn’t have. Another subjunctive form that is sometimes used in speech but is usually edited out of Standard English is the intrusive have occurring in negative constructions, as in We would have been in real trouble if it hadn’t have been for you. In speech this have is always reduced, as hadn’t a’. The hadn’t have construction often appears in conjunction with the verb happen, as in He would have been in real trouble if I hadn’t have happened to be there where standard practice requires if I hadn’t been there. The Usage Panel has little affection for hadn’t have in these situations; 91 percent of panelists find it unacceptable."

MickeyTong
19-02-2008, 11:34
Well. that clarifies that, then..........

SalTheReturn
19-02-2008, 12:20
Well. that clarifies that, then..........

does not clarify because i am not gonna read it

needs very few examples of sudjunctive constructions

thanks

Sal

Penelope
19-02-2008, 12:24
Sal, do you just need a bunch of examples? Or do you really need a reason? I'm sure as regular English speakers, we could come up with several examples for you, but you need a well-trained English teacher to explain the grammar behind it.

elis
19-02-2008, 12:39
does not clarify because i am not gonna read it

needs very few examples of sudjunctive constructions

thanks

Sal


Next time I'll shorten what I find.

MickeyT gave you a perfect example in his first reply.

MissAnnElk
19-02-2008, 12:40
I am not the best grammarian out there, but as a former English composition teacher, I can tell you that while I admire and respect the correct use of the subjunctive in English, it is generally falling out of common use. Most people do not distinguish between when it is required and when it ends up not being used . . .

Again, language being a living thing, it changes over time.

What I'm saying is that I would not worry about it too much. Since most Americans, anyhow, can't get it right, you aren't going to be considered illiterate if you can't do it.

Personally, I found the following article in yesterday's New York Times more interesting, as I have long been a fan of the semi-colon. But to my mind it is a similar discussion to the one we are having about the subjunctive.

Celebrating the Semicolon in a Most Unlikely Location
By SAM ROBERTS
Published: February 18, 2008
Correction Appended

It was nearly hidden on a New York City Transit public service placard exhorting subway riders not to leave their newspaper behind when they get off the train.

“Please put it in a trash can,” riders are reminded. After which Neil Neches, an erudite writer in the transit agency’s marketing and service information department, inserted a semicolon. The rest of the sentence reads, “that’s good news for everyone.”

Semicolon sightings in the city are unusual, period, much less in exhortations drafted by committees of civil servants. In literature and journalism, not to mention in advertising, the semicolon has been largely jettisoned as a pretentious anachronism.

Americans, in particular, prefer shorter sentences without, as style books advise, that distinct division between statements that are closely related but require a separation more prolonged than a conjunction and more emphatic than a comma.

“When Hemingway killed himself he put a period at the end of his life,” Kurt Vonnegut once said. “Old age is more like a semicolon.”

In terms of punctuation, semicolons signal something New Yorkers rarely do. Frank McCourt, the writer and former English teacher at Stuyvesant High School, describes the semicolon as the yellow traffic light of a “New York sentence.” In response, most New Yorkers accelerate; they don’t pause to contemplate.

Semicolons are supposed to be introduced into the curriculum of the New York City public schools in the third grade. That is where Mr. Neches, the 55-year-old New York City Transit marketing manager, learned them, before graduating from Tilden High School and Brooklyn College, where he majored in English and later received a master’s degree in creative writing.

But, whatever one’s personal feelings about semicolons, some people don’t use them because they never learned how.

In fact, when Mr. Neches was informed by a supervisor that a reporter was inquiring about who was responsible for the semicolon, he was concerned.

“I thought at first somebody was complaining,” he said.

One of the school system’s most notorious graduates, David Berkowitz, the Son of Sam serial killer who taunted police and the press with rambling handwritten notes, was, as the columnist Jimmy Breslin wrote, the only murderer he ever encountered who could wield a semicolon just as well as a revolver. (Mr. Berkowitz, by the way, is now serving an even longer sentence.)

But the rules of grammar are routinely violated on both sides of the law.

People have lost fortunes and even been put to death because of imprecise punctuation involving semicolons in legal papers. In 2004, a court in San Francisco rejected a conservative group’s challenge to a statute allowing gay marriage because the operative phrases were separated incorrectly by a semicolon instead of by the proper conjunction.

Louis Menand, an English professor at Harvard and a staff writer at The New Yorker, pronounced the subway poster’s use of the semicolon to be “impeccable.”

Lynne Truss, author of “Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation,” called it a “lovely example” of proper punctuation.

Geoffrey Nunberg, a professor of linguistics at the University of California, Berkeley, praised the “burgeoning of punctuational literacy in unlikely places.”

Allan M. Siegal, a longtime arbiter of New York Times style before retiring, opined, “The semicolon is correct, though I’d have used a colon, which I think would be a bit more sophisticated in that sentence.”

The linguist Noam Chomsky sniffed, “I suppose Bush would claim it’s the effect of No Child Left Behind.”

New York City Transit’s unintended agenda notwithstanding, e-mail messages and text-messaging may jeopardize the last vestiges of semicolons. They still live on, though, in emoticons, those graphic emblems of our grins, grimaces and other facial expressions.

The semicolon, befittingly, symbolizes a wink.

This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: February 19, 2008
An article in some editions on Monday about a New York City Transit employee’s deft use of the semicolon in a public service placard was less deft in its punctuation of the title of a book by Lynne Truss, who called the placard a “lovely example” of proper punctuation. The title of the book is “Eats, Shoots & Leaves” — not “Eats Shoots & Leaves.” (The subtitle of Ms. Truss’s book is “The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation.”)

SalTheReturn
19-02-2008, 16:12
Sal, do you just need a bunch of examples? Or do you really need a reason? I'm sure as regular English speakers, we could come up with several examples for you, but you need a well-trained English teacher to explain the grammar behind it.

the grammar behind it not a problem since it will follow the same mechanism as in italian, spanish (and french?)

pls post few example

the one "i suggested that she READ a book"
make full sense to me coz it would require in italian the subjenctive

need more principal clause that will then require the use of a subjunctive

do you use sujunctive only with the sense of a present? in italian we have four
present subj
past subju
subj trapassato (cant transl8)
subj imperfect

SalTheReturn
19-02-2008, 16:13
I am not the best grammarian out there, but as a former English composition teacher, I can tell you that while I admire and respect the correct use of the subjunctive in English, it is generally falling out of common use. Most people do not distinguish between when it is required and when it ends up not being used . . .

Again, language being a living thing, it changes over time.

What I'm saying is that I would not worry about it too much. Since most Americans, anyhow, can't get it right, you aren't going to be considered illiterate if you can't do it.

Personally, I found the following article in yesterday's New York Times more interesting, as I have long been a fan of the semi-colon. But to my mind it is a similar discussion to the one we are having about the subjunctive.

Celebrating the Semicolon in a Most Unlikely Location
By SAM ROBERTS
Published: February 18, 2008
Correction Appended

It was nearly hidden on a New York City Transit public service placard exhorting subway riders not to leave their newspaper behind when they get off the train.

“Please put it in a trash can,” riders are reminded. After which Neil Neches, an erudite writer in the transit agency’s marketing and service information department, inserted a semicolon. The rest of the sentence reads, “that’s good news for everyone.”

Semicolon sightings in the city are unusual, period, much less in exhortations drafted by committees of civil servants. In literature and journalism, not to mention in advertising, the semicolon has been largely jettisoned as a pretentious anachronism.

Americans, in particular, prefer shorter sentences without, as style books advise, that distinct division between statements that are closely related but require a separation more prolonged than a conjunction and more emphatic than a comma.

“When Hemingway killed himself he put a period at the end of his life,” Kurt Vonnegut once said. “Old age is more like a semicolon.”

In terms of punctuation, semicolons signal something New Yorkers rarely do. Frank McCourt, the writer and former English teacher at Stuyvesant High School, describes the semicolon as the yellow traffic light of a “New York sentence.” In response, most New Yorkers accelerate; they don’t pause to contemplate.

Semicolons are supposed to be introduced into the curriculum of the New York City public schools in the third grade. That is where Mr. Neches, the 55-year-old New York City Transit marketing manager, learned them, before graduating from Tilden High School and Brooklyn College, where he majored in English and later received a master’s degree in creative writing.

But, whatever one’s personal feelings about semicolons, some people don’t use them because they never learned how.

In fact, when Mr. Neches was informed by a supervisor that a reporter was inquiring about who was responsible for the semicolon, he was concerned.

“I thought at first somebody was complaining,” he said.

One of the school system’s most notorious graduates, David Berkowitz, the Son of Sam serial killer who taunted police and the press with rambling handwritten notes, was, as the columnist Jimmy Breslin wrote, the only murderer he ever encountered who could wield a semicolon just as well as a revolver. (Mr. Berkowitz, by the way, is now serving an even longer sentence.)

But the rules of grammar are routinely violated on both sides of the law.

People have lost fortunes and even been put to death because of imprecise punctuation involving semicolons in legal papers. In 2004, a court in San Francisco rejected a conservative group’s challenge to a statute allowing gay marriage because the operative phrases were separated incorrectly by a semicolon instead of by the proper conjunction.

Louis Menand, an English professor at Harvard and a staff writer at The New Yorker, pronounced the subway poster’s use of the semicolon to be “impeccable.”

Lynne Truss, author of “Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation,” called it a “lovely example” of proper punctuation.

Geoffrey Nunberg, a professor of linguistics at the University of California, Berkeley, praised the “burgeoning of punctuational literacy in unlikely places.”

Allan M. Siegal, a longtime arbiter of New York Times style before retiring, opined, “The semicolon is correct, though I’d have used a colon, which I think would be a bit more sophisticated in that sentence.”

The linguist Noam Chomsky sniffed, “I suppose Bush would claim it’s the effect of No Child Left Behind.”

New York City Transit’s unintended agenda notwithstanding, e-mail messages and text-messaging may jeopardize the last vestiges of semicolons. They still live on, though, in emoticons, those graphic emblems of our grins, grimaces and other facial expressions.

The semicolon, befittingly, symbolizes a wink.

This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: February 19, 2008
An article in some editions on Monday about a New York City Transit employee’s deft use of the semicolon in a public service placard was less deft in its punctuation of the title of a book by Lynne Truss, who called the placard a “lovely example” of proper punctuation. The title of the book is “Eats, Shoots & Leaves” — not “Eats Shoots & Leaves.” (The subtitle of Ms. Truss’s book is “The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation.”)

sorry too long pls make a summary

MickeyTong
19-02-2008, 16:19
errrrr........getting a bit too technical for me.
Do you need this for exam purposes?
In reality, subjunctive isn't used much in English. Mainly by poncey academics and poseur literati, I suppose. But, then, I'm just a peasant. What do I know?

SalTheReturn
19-02-2008, 16:24
errrrr........getting a bit too technical for me.
Do you need this for exam purposes?
In reality, subjunctive isn't used much in English. Mainly by poncey academics and poseur literati, I suppose. But, then, I'm just a peasant. What do I know?

no i need it to reach fluency in english writing within dec 2008 and successfully spend another academic year in crap UK

Penelope
19-02-2008, 16:27
Sal, why don't we just give you several examples? Will that help you? Rather than rules (which you by now know English is rather "flexible" about :D)

kirk10071
19-02-2008, 16:32
no i need it to reach fluency in english writing within dec 2008 and successfully spend another academic year in crap UK

By "crap UK" are you referring to the UK in general or the 65-quid-a-week rat-infested, meth-lab-adjacent, urine-soaked flat you are planning to rent in South London?

MickeyTong
19-02-2008, 16:44
By "crap UK" are you referring to the UK in general or the 65-quid-a-week rat-infested, meth-lab-adjacent, urine-soaked flat you are planning to rent in South London?
Some of my best friends have lived in 65-quid-a-week rat-infested, urine-soaked flats. Not meth-lab-adjacent, but two-doors down from the crack-kitchen. Are you trying to imply something?

MissAnnElk
19-02-2008, 16:57
sorry too long pls make a summary

Yeah, it was too long and only tangentially on topic . . . sorry. And I was trying not to just post a link, like I normally do.

My point was that grammar and punctuation rules can change, that's all. The point of the article was that someone used a semi-colon and that's sort of rare anymore.

SalTheReturn
19-02-2008, 18:02
By "crap UK" are you referring to the UK in general or the 65-quid-a-week rat-infested, meth-lab-adjacent, urine-soaked flat you are planning to rent in South London?

no it was the EastEnd, dude guess now, 6 years later, the rat will be bigger and rent more expensive!!!

as concern "crap" it was a printing mistake, sorry

SalTheReturn
19-02-2008, 18:04
Sal, why don't we just give you several examples? Will that help you? Rather than rules (which you by now know English is rather "flexible" about :D)

you dont understand do you?

subjunctive will surely have rules like in italian and spanish, depends on how the sentence starts

can you now for gods sake write a few phrases? thanks

SalTheReturn
19-02-2008, 18:06
Yeah, it was too long and only tangentially on topic . . . sorry. And I was trying not to just post a link, like I normally do.

My point was that grammar and punctuation rules can change, that's all. The point of the article was that someone used a semi-colon and that's sort of rare anymore.

the point is thats not the professional advice i was looking for

even italians substitute for the subjunctive with the present tense but i want to know when it is theorically require to use the subjunctive

MickeyTong your post has been reported for hijacking the thread

Penelope
19-02-2008, 18:22
you dont understand do you?

subjunctive will surely have rules like in italian and spanish, depends on how the sentence starts

can you now for gods sake write a few phrases? thanks
No, I kinda don't feel like helping you anymore Sal. I've asked you about three times in this thread if you'd like us to give you some examples, and you have not answered until now, and in a rather insulting way.

SalTheReturn
19-02-2008, 18:25
No, I kinda don't feel like helping you anymore Sal. I've asked you about three times in this thread if you'd like us to give you some examples, and you have not answered until now, and in a rather insulting way.

ok so i am sick penelope or my english is going totally EDITED all

i asked to have examples since my very first post

can you please write a few phrases?

I am never offensive, if you start taking seriously all the crap i spout you might go crazy!!!

take care

Sal

elis
19-02-2008, 18:42
Here are some examples with the subjunctive:

The manager insists that the garage be locked at night.
The board of directors recommended that he join the company.
It is essential that we vote as soon as possible.
It was necessary that every student submit his essay before the weekend.

It does not matter whether the sentence is past or present.

Present: The President requests that they stop the occupation.
Past: The President requested that they stop the occupation.
Present: It is essential that she be present.
Past: It was essential that she be present.

In British English (vs. American English) should + infinitive is used more often:
The manager insists that the garage should be locked at night.
It was essential that we should vote as soon as possible.

Meglio??

kirk10071
19-02-2008, 19:34
Also, use it after some other verbs with similar "instructive" feelings to them, either in present or past tense, as follows,

"Her dog demands that she be home within a certain period of time."

"I suggested that she go home at once to check on her dog."

"Her dog recommended to the cat that the cat poo on the sofa if the owner should be late in returning home, thus demonstrating to the owner the importance of coming home on time."

"The owner checked her watch and rushed out of the store, knowing that, should she be late, the cat and/or dog would punish her mercilessly for this offense"

elis
19-02-2008, 19:46
Also, use it after some other verbs with similar "instructive" feelings to them, either in present or past tense, as follows,

"Her dog demands that she be home within a certain period of time."

"I suggested that she go home at once to check on her dog."

"Her dog recommended to the cat that the cat poo on the sofa if the owner should be late in returning home, thus demonstrating to the owner the importance of coming home on time."

"The owner checked her watch and rushed out of the store, knowing that, should she be late, the cat and/or dog would punish her mercilessly for this offense"

:Loco::Loco::Loco:

SalTheReturn
19-02-2008, 20:47
thank you very much for your first rate advice, thanks a lot really

it is like in italian, this makes things easier

MickeyTong
20-02-2008, 00:04
MickeyTong your post has been reported for hijacking the thread

Were I of a sensitive disposition, I should take umbrage at this. Please accept my apology for uselessly intruding into your thread; had I an iota of awareness and insight I should have realised that none of my posts had any relevance to your query, being as I am not a teacher.
Klipe.

Albertina
20-02-2008, 00:58
There were some important cases missed. For example:

If her dog demanded that she were home within a certain period of time, whe would have sold him and replaced by a less demanding cat.

If I only were that dog!

I wish I were a cat!

But be it as it may!

SalTheReturn
20-02-2008, 10:32
There were some important cases missed. For example:

If her dog demanded that she were home within a certain period of time, whe would have sold him and replaced by a less demanding cat.

If I only were that dog!

I wish I were a cat!

But be it as it may!

you confuse conditionals with subjunctive (excpet for a few phrases where you are right)

disappointed:groan:

SalTheReturn
20-02-2008, 10:33
Were I of a sensitive disposition, I should take umbrage at this. Please accept my apology for uselessly intruding into your thread; had I an iota of awareness and insight I should have realised that none of my posts had any relevance to your query, being as I am not a teacher.
Klipe.

what iota means?

Albertina
20-02-2008, 10:38
you confuse conditionals with subjunctive (excpet for a few phrases where you are right)

disappointed:groan:

No I don't confuse them. In the first sentence it's a subjunsctive in the second part. And all others are subjunctive.

What's your point? Apart from being an obnoxious whiner?!

MickeyTong
20-02-2008, 10:50
iota = a tiny amount
klipe = a person who zealously reports to authority the perceived misbehaviour of others; the kid at school whom everyone else wanted to throttle

kirk10071
20-02-2008, 11:22
iota = a tiny amount
klipe = a person who zealously reports to authority the perceived misbehaviour of others; the kid at school whom everyone else wanted to throttle

HA! Now Mickey, are you by any chance alluding to our resident Italian phlyarologist with a mild penchant to ultracrepidation?

MickeyTong
20-02-2008, 11:50
Kirk, answering that would be off-topic and I'd be reported again for hijacking the wee klipe's thread

elis
20-02-2008, 12:17
what iota means?

Helpful hint, since you indicated that you need to reach English writing fluency by Dec. It should be "What does iota mean?"


HA! Now Mickey, are you by any chance alluding to our resident Italian phlyarologist with a mild penchant to ultracrepidation?

Dude. Those weren't even in Merriam-Webster!

MickeyTong
20-02-2008, 12:20
Nor here.....
Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/)

kirk10071
20-02-2008, 12:26
Dude. Those weren't even in Merriam-Webster!

...but you can google 'em... (don't tell Sal :shhhhhh:)

MickeyTong
20-02-2008, 12:31
Ahaaa......all is now clear :duhhhh:

elis
20-02-2008, 12:32
...but you can google 'em... (don't tell Sal :shhhhhh:)

I did. I did. The first was in a dictionary of lost words. Okay. Enough of this. We're hijacking... :)

MissAnnElk
20-02-2008, 12:37
I saw this recently . . .

Homoiousian- Greek for similar in essence . . . This declares that Jesus is similar to God, but not the same.
Homoousian - Greek for common in essence. . . This defines the Chrisitan understanding of God as The Trinity. Jesus is homoousian with the father; that is they are of the same substance and equally God.

This distinction was the first big rift in early Christianity which was "resolved" with the Nicene creed. Notice the two words differ in only one lettter, 'i', or iota. This is reputed to be where the phrase 'there's not one iota of difference' came from.

I am not expert in this . . .

MickeyTong
20-02-2008, 12:39
Sal is going to tell on you people.......:11513:

Penelope
20-02-2008, 13:16
OK, I'm going to be a bit pedantic (please forgive me, it's in my nature). Where in Sal's first post does he ask for examples?
Yesterday for the first time ever I came across what in english come under the name of "subjunctive"

what the big deal? many languages have subjunctives, even more than one (4 in italian, and more in spanish)

i did not know you had to write

I suggested that she READ the book

and you dont write READS

what the hell is this subjunctive in english and in what construction i use it?

non native speakers, did you know that?


ok so i am sick penelope or my english is going totally EDITED all

i asked to have examples since my very first post

can you please write a few phrases?

I am never offensive, if you start taking seriously all the crap i spout you might go crazy!!!

take care

Sal

SalTheReturn
20-02-2008, 16:17
No I don't confuse them. In the first sentence it's a subjunsctive in the second part. And all others are subjunctive.

What's your point? Apart from being an obnoxious whiner?!

my point is that you try to mislead me so that my application form to UK uni will be rejected

SalTheReturn
20-02-2008, 16:18
HA! Now Mickey, are you by any chance alluding to our resident Italian phlyarologist with a mild penchant to ultracrepidation?

pls rephrase in upper-intermediate english according to the EU frameowork for assessing language proficiency

SalTheReturn
20-02-2008, 16:23
OK, I'm going to be a bit pedantic (please forgive me, it's in my nature). Where in Sal's first post does he ask for examples?

I suggest that you read the post better and admit to you ego (is it spelt right?) that my question required examples

kirk10071
20-02-2008, 16:23
pls rephrase in upper-intermediate english according to the EU frameowork for assessing language proficiency

It means: Are you referring to our Italian colleague who has a desire to learn?

If you have any other English questions, feel free to post them. We find them interesting, and I am particularly saddened that the subjunctive in English is frequently used incorrectly. Let us know if you need more examples.

Penelope
20-02-2008, 16:37
I suggest that you read the post better and admit to you ego (is it spelt right?) that my question required examples
All hail mighty Sal who can do and say no wrong.

SalTheReturn
20-02-2008, 18:43
It means: Are you referring to our Italian colleague who has a desire to learn?

If you have any other English questions, feel free to post them. We find them interesting, and I am particularly saddened that the subjunctive in English is frequently used incorrectly. Let us know if you need more examples.

Dear Sir/Madam,

thank a lot for your nice message. I have so far printed all the correct phrases focusing on the use of the subjunctive. It seems enough to me but if You think it is not, please be so kind as to post some more.

Regards

Sal

SalTheReturn
20-02-2008, 18:44
All hail mighty Sal who can do and say no wrong.

you mean Almighty? pls rephrase and respect those for whom english is not the first language

Penelope
21-02-2008, 12:15
you mean Almighty? pls rephrase and respect those for whom english is not the first language
No, Sal, I mean mighty, not Almighty (that smacks of blasphemy).

SalTheReturn
21-02-2008, 12:31
No, Sal, I mean mighty, not Almighty (that smacks of blasphemy).

i think i would like you to teach me english, can we meet online? i can create a special section?

to smack of blasphemy means it sounds blasphemic, in'it?

Penelope
21-02-2008, 12:33
Yes, Sal, "to smack of something" means that it sounds like that something, or you could easily apply that something to it as an adjective.

SalTheReturn
21-02-2008, 14:33
can also be referred to people ie. this guy smacks of snobbism

Penelope
21-02-2008, 15:18
no

SalTheReturn
21-02-2008, 17:37
so what about if i want to negatively point at the character of an individual?

did you understand my wrong example?

Penelope
21-02-2008, 17:39
Of course I understood what you meant, but I would never say it that way, and I have never heard "smacks of" used to describe a person. It's almost always a situation.

SalTheReturn
21-02-2008, 19:00
Of course I understood what you meant, but I would never say it that way, and I have never heard "smacks of" used to describe a person. It's almost always a situation.

so could you provide me with a right example? cheers

Penelope
21-02-2008, 19:13
OK. Say for example, that the director of a bank is found dead at the bottom of his swimming pool, all bruised and battered, but with his hands and feet tied. The police announce at first that it's obviously a murder, and the next day say it was in fact suicide. I would say that that smacks of a coverup.

SalTheReturn
21-02-2008, 21:57
OK. Say for example, that the director of a bank is found dead at the bottom of his swimming pool, all bruised and battered, but with his hands and feet tied. The police announce at first that it's obviously a murder, and the next day say it was in fact suicide. I would say that that smacks of a coverup.

penelope you did not get my question...

with situation i fully understand the meaning

but whatabout if i want to say that with reference to a person? what verb i use and how?

like "the guy sounds disturbingly snobbish"

Penelope
22-02-2008, 11:19
Sal, usually we would just use an adjective. That guy is a snob! Maybe we'd say "He is stuck up". "Stuck up" is a colloquial expression to indicate snobbishness. We might say, "He's so stuck up, he would drown in the rain!" (meaning that he usually has his nose high in the air, and the rain would fall into his lungs via his nose).

AndreyS
22-02-2008, 11:28
Sal, usually we would just use an adjective. That guy is a snob! Maybe we'd say "He is stuck up". "Stuck up" is a colloquial expression to indicate snobbishness. We might say, "He's so stuck up, he would drown in the rain!" (meaning that he usually has his nose high in the air, and the rain would fall into his lungs via his nose).

Funny, thank you Pen. ;-)))

bluemidnight
04-03-2008, 21:41
You can also substitute "reeks of" (meaning smells like, in a bad way) for smacks of.

In Penelope's crime example, you could also say that the situation "reeks of conspiracy."