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fenrir
05-01-2015, 14:01
Here's an example of the 'freedom' in Russia some posters claim exist.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-woman-says-charged-with-inciting-ethnic-hatred-for-posts-on-ukraine-crisis/514044.html

PJB
05-01-2015, 22:37
For those in Russia, be careful what you post ;)

Russian Lad
05-01-2015, 23:04
For those in Russia, be careful what you post

The moderators bear the ultimate responsibility for what is published here, unlike on our social pages, we posters don't have the ultimate control over what remains published and what is deleted (wink-wink).
On a serious note, if this article is true (and it has been published by a rather well-established source), I wonder what sort of business/investments the authorities hope to have in this country if you basically can go to jail for reposting legitimate news sources of a different country, not even for expressing your opinions (which should not be a problem either). Wow. All this is chopping off at the wobbling ruble and, in the long run, damages the Russian economy even further.

snowdrift
05-01-2015, 23:51
fenrir

and what? I am tired of shallow stupid haters with their political delirium everywhere. I can post here loads of cases when people across the world have been charged with disrespectful comments/acts "inciting hatred" on the Internet or in real life. In fact, just because what they posted/performed didn`t fit the authorities` point of view.


Here's an example of the 'freedom' in the USA ALL the posters claim exist:

www dot theguardian dot com/world/2013/sep/12/florida-pastor-terry-jones-qurans

Russian Lad
05-01-2015, 23:59
I can post here loads of cases when people across the world have been charged with disrespectful comments "inciting hatred" on the Internet.

Please do. Say, for the US and Canada. We would like to compare. Is it illegal to post news from other countries in the US?

From your first link:

A Florida pastor was arrested on Wednesday as he drove to a park to set fire to nearly 3,000 Qur'ans to mark the September 11 terrorist attacks. Sheriff's deputies in Mulberry, Florida, arrested Terry Jones, 61, and his associate pastor, Marvin Sapp Jr, 44, on felony charges of unlawful conveyance of fuel as they travelled in a pickup truck towing a large barbecue-style grill filled with Qur'ans soaked in kerosene.

Jones had said he was heading to a nearby park to burn 2,998 Qur'ans – one for every victim of the 2001 attacks. Sheriff's officials said that Jones was also charged with the unlawful open-carry of a firearm and that Sapp faced a charge of having no valid registration for the trailer.

Doesn't it mean some action was actually involved? I think your first try has been rather lame. But you are welcome to keep trying.

snowdrift
06-01-2015, 00:03
Already done, sir. In case you want more:


Toronto Man Charged With Inciting Hatred Toward Muslims

www dot wrmea dot org/1997-october-november/canada-calling-toronto-man-charged-with-inciting-hatred-toward-muslims.html

Russian Lad
06-01-2015, 00:05
Ok, see my response above.:) From your second link:

published and distributed pamphlets through his organization

It tells us he was distributing it through an organization. A personal social network page is hardly an organization. Besides, no hatred from this woman is mentioned in the article, not a single hatred quote. Just to be clear, it is not Fenrir who wrote and published the article.:) Fenrir just posted a link to it.

snowdrift
06-01-2015, 00:07
Russian Lad

My example is perfectly valid and in line with what I wrote. What if someone just wants to burn Qurans? Where is the freedom? I strongly suspect that you "see" difference only when it comes in handy for you. Usual double standards. I am not surprised whatsoever. Go ahead, boy.

PJB
06-01-2015, 00:14
Yep it's true folks. We don't let people drive through cities towing BBQs filled with enough flammable liquid to blow up/set fire to a 3 story building. And even more shocking is we don't let them set this fire bomb off in a public park!

So don't come to America if you want to actually harm people here.

P.S. Snowdrift, the reason this thread was started is because some of us who live/have lived in Russia mourn the loss of the freedom of the speech that we were used to there. But since you are not unhappy with the possibility of being arrested for watching/writing whatever political views you want on the internet, you are still free to voice your opinion (until there comes a law that prevents that too)

Russian Lad
06-01-2015, 00:14
My example is perfectly valid and in line with what I wrote. What if someone just wants to burn Qurans? Where is the freedom?

It is surely in line with what you wrote and with what you think, but it is not in line with the case here in Russia we are discussing - there was NO action from this woman, she didn't even mention any malevolent intent.

snowdrift
06-01-2015, 00:16
Russian Lad

It was back in 1997. The Internet wasn`t so great as it is now, so the guy used phones and pamphlets. And that organization describes itself as "self-supporting group of Christian soldiers" - which 99% means just a group of friends or people interrelated on other personal grounds - relatives, neigbors and so forth.

Russian Lad
06-01-2015, 00:23
It was back in 1997. The Internet wasn`t so great as it is now, so the guy used phones and pamphlets.

Again, a personal page on Internet is not an organization.
By the way, I entirely agree with you that some Western countries can do better and can improve the freedom of speech - but here we are discussing one specific episode in a specific country which happens to be Russia. Otherwise we may as well remember that the Americans lynched the blacks and killed many Indians.

snowdrift
06-01-2015, 00:28
So don't come to America if you want to actually harm people here.


In fact, America is full of people who hate...America. It is too late - you have already let them in :)


P.S. Snowdrift, the reason this thread was started is because some of us who live/have lived in Russia mourn the loss of the freedom of the speech that we were used to there.

What happened? Did anybody ban you from speaking your personal opinion?

snowdrift
06-01-2015, 00:32
Lad, again, his "organization" is not more than an Internet page in terms of 2015.

In the UK people can even tip the police as for "hate material" :)

www report-it org.uk/reporting_internet_hate_crime

Katie Hopkins 'racist' Glasgow Ebola victim tweets examined by police

www independent.co.uk/news/people/katie-hopkins-racist-glasgow-ebola-tweet-examined-by-police-9951781.html


And as to that woman - I think we are told just a half of the story. But it never bothers modern journalists.

Russian Lad
06-01-2015, 00:33
What happened? Did anybody ban you from speaking your personal opinion?

It is a good question.:) Let me try to answer - imagine the three of us are standing on the edge of a steep cliff. I push the first guy off the cliff for no apparent reasons at all, he is falling, screaming and crashing on the stones below. Then I look at you, you are terrified. And I tell you: What happened? Did anybody push you off the cliff or what?
Would you accept that?:) Something tells me you would either run away, scream for help or fight me or something else. But I doubt you would say: -Ah, don't bother, it is all fine.


And as to that woman - I think we are told just a half of the story. But it never bothers modern journalists.

This story would seem implausible just a year ago, everyone would take it for the April-1st joke, including me. Nowadays somehow it looks VERY plausible. Is it the fault of journalists? I strongly doubt it.

snowdrift
06-01-2015, 00:42
Russian Lad

I am not interested in your vain dreams. Besides, that question wasn`t for you. But I really appreciate your willingness to answer.


This story would seem implausible just a year ago, everyone would take it for the April-1st joke, including me. Nowadays somehow it looks VERY plausible.

The corresponding legislation restricting the freedom of speech came into force several years ago. So, you must be very naive if it was like the Fool`s Day joke for you.

Again, my point is that there is no freedom of speech in the world. With slight differences every country puts its own restrictions. I don`t understand this panic. And when a "smarty pants" comes forward to open our eyes - it`s just ridiculous or it smells like troll.

Russian Lad
06-01-2015, 00:48
I am not interested in your vain dreams.

It wasn't a dream, it was an image-bearing equiparation.:)


But I really appreciate your willingness to answer.

Sure, the pleasure was mine.


The corresponding legislation restricting the freedom of speech came into force several years ago. So, you must be very naive if it was like the Fool`s Day joke for you.

Again, my point is that there is no freedom of speech in the world. With slight differences every country puts its own restrictions. I don`t understand this panic.

Can I take a look at this legislation? A link will be great. They pass new laws every day now, so it is hard to keep track of them all.:) Anyway, you are saying you are enjoying it in Russia, the freedom and all? Without any personal details, what are you doing here? Not many foreigners jump in to defend the current fledgling status quo here, most are well paid for their efforts though.:)

snowdrift
06-01-2015, 01:05
Sure, although I think that you are smart and experienced enough to google it. But, as I said, I strongly suspect double standards in your behavior here.

Закон о СМИ
http://www.consultant.ru/popular/smi/

Федеральный список экстремистских материалов
http://minjust.ru/ru/extremist-materials

Статья 282 УК РФ. Возбуждение ненависти либо вражды, а равно унижение человеческого достоинства
http://www.ukru.ru/code/10/282/

and others.

Russian Lad
06-01-2015, 01:08
Sure, although I think that you are smart and experienced enough to google it. But, as I said, I strongly suspect double standards in your behavior here.

No double standards. It was just a little trick - to make sure you are Russian as I suspected.:) With all the ramifications I am too lazy to pursue here.

snowdrift
06-01-2015, 01:12
No, not lazy - actually, you lack common sense.

Russian Lad
06-01-2015, 01:48
A little comment for those who wonder - it was Country of Origin - Spain, Location - Moscow in his profile just an hour ago. He has changed it to Wonderland for both lines now.
Lol. It has been more entertaining than I expected. :10301:

snowdrift
06-01-2015, 01:59
Lo he cambiado justo por eso - ahora me juzgas a mi por lo que soy (lo que está prohibido en este foro
respect the views (and nationalities) of others, and refrain from personal attacks.) en vez de mantener la discusión.

Russian Lad
06-01-2015, 02:04
Too late, товарищ... :rasta::tv: Don't try to stick nationalities offence here, you know it is not about nationalities. It is about your mindset that exposed you.
A propósito, sé usar también a los traductores de máquina. Or maybe you even know Spanish, but it doesn't change anything.:)

snowdrift
06-01-2015, 02:08
Too late, товарищ...


typical troll comments. I am not even surprised - you have spent here 7 (!!!) years leaving 4-5 comments per day on average which speaks for itself.

haha They are not human beings)) There is a small error in your sentence. Calm down, dude. It`s a way over your head. Just get over it.

Korotky Gennady
06-01-2015, 03:23
Here's an example of the 'freedom' in Russia some posters claim exist.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-woman-says-charged-with-inciting-ethnic-hatred-for-posts-on-ukraine-crisis/514044.html

You see... There's no problem for a russian woman to be a prostitute but God save her if she posts something from ukrainian sites.

((((;

Bad news for freedom of speech in Russia.

I wonder... how soon will they shoot down her as a traitor ? :))))

She must know that Russia and Ukrain fight each other in the battle of the Information War.

Korotky Gennady
06-01-2015, 03:36
just in case... I swear I never posted any links to ukrainian documentaries and television show... Only one time I posted a link to Savik Shuster's show but it was my big mistake... I did it by pure accident !

Armoured
06-01-2015, 05:25
I can post here loads of cases when people across the world have been charged with disrespectful comments/acts "inciting hatred" on the Internet or in real life. In fact, just because what they posted/performed didn`t fit the authorities` point of view.
...
Toronto Man Charged With Inciting Hatred Toward Muslims

www dot wrmea dot org/1997-october-november/canada-calling-toronto-man-charged-with-inciting-hatred-toward-muslims.html


Again, my point is that there is no freedom of speech in the world. With slight differences every country puts its own restrictions.

So your 'loads of cases' comes down to one case in Toronto?

For reference, here's the appeals court decision:
http://caselaw.canada.globe24h.com/0/0/ontario/court-of-appeal-for-ontario/2001/12/17/r-v-harding-2001-21272-on-ca.shtml


The trial judge then considered the meaning of hatred and found that the two pamphlets and first telephone message delivered a message of hatred within the meaning of s. 319(2) because, as he stated at p. 213, they depicted all Muslims as “persons who readily commit heinous atrocities for the sake of their religious beliefs.” These materials concluded that Muslims were deserving of ill-treatment on the basis of group affiliation. ...

... the appellant distorted statements in the various newspaper articles he purported to quote, the trial judge found firstly that these distortions were deliberate. For example, the appellant omitted the words “rebels”, “militants”, “insurgents” and substituted the word “believers”.
The trial judge ...: The manner in which the articles were edited by him reflects a deliberate effort to obscure the distinction between the extremist/radical/militant groups that the articles are referring to, and Muslims in general.

the trial judge found ...: These misrepresentations are too flagrant to be inadvertent, and they betray a conscious effort to inflame the reader. Mr. Harding’s deliberate inaccurate depiction of Muslim practices in the school evinces his intent to foment feelings of hostility toward Muslims [emphasis added].

And just to be clear, the pamphlets in question were distributed in front of a school with a large Muslim student population. You can read elsewhere in the court document, but the pamphlets were also found to be full of _deliberate_ misquoting from other sources (i.e. changes "radicals" to "believers", to make it seem that these statements apply to all Muslims).

Anyone can make their own decision on the info, of course, but I don't find this meets your description of 'making disrespectful comments' (whether on the internet or not). This guy went well beyond your innocuous description of it.

While I'd generally like to see few restrictions on freedom of speech, as you note, all societies have some. In this case, this seems to me to be akin to libel or slander, but with a specific state interest: flagrant lies and misrepresentations intended to harm others (including groups) should be subject to sanction.

Oh, and the accused here was convicted and his sentence consisted of parole and public service. No jail time. He did have financial difficulties, but that was the cost of his defence (and his unsuccessful attempts to appeal through several levels of courts). I don't believe he's ever been charged with anything since (despite further appearances in public, etc), so no evidence of persecution for his views - he was prosecuted for a specific act, i.e. distributing literature intended to harm others by means of deliberate lies.

And, uh, I'm pretty sure Toronto had the internet in 1997.

snowdrift
06-01-2015, 15:14
Armoured

Did google ban you? Do you need a new pair of lenses? I posted at least 3 cases when people in the West have been bothered or prosecuted by police just because of the way they think. For further information I strongly recommend you go to google and type in something like "inciting hatred cases". There are plenty of cases when people were jailed, deported or had problems in general for the way they think even in your beloved Canada:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/when-is-it-hate-speech-7-significant-canadian-cases-1.1036731

Punishment depends on each country`s legislation as well as the notion of what is allowed to voice or not. Anders Breivik got only 20 years (or so - I don`t remember well) in a comfortable cell for what he did whereas in many other countries the punishment would be much more serious. And stop distorting my words which is childish. I just said that in 1997 the Internet (not only in Toronto) was not so great and advanced as it is now and he wouldn`t have reached really big audience there.

fenrir
06-01-2015, 16:26
fenrir

and what? I am tired of shallow stupid haters with their political delirium everywhere. I can post here loads of cases when people across the world have been charged with disrespectful comments/acts "inciting hatred" on the Internet or in real life. In fact, just because what they posted/performed didn`t fit the authorities` point of view.


Here's an example of the 'freedom' in the USA ALL the posters claim exist:

www dot theguardian dot com/world/2013/sep/12/florida-pastor-terry-jones-qurans

Thanks for hijacking the thread and trying to turn it into an anti-American bash to deflect the real issue.

In fact, you sound like somebody familiar on this site and use the same methodology. And it's just a coincidence that you just joined the site and have hardly any posts to your credit, but come blasting out of the gates as if you have been debating with us for months. Hmmm.

TolkoRaz
06-01-2015, 16:29
In fact, you sound like somebody familiar on this site and use the same methodology. And it's just a coincidence that you just joined the site and have hardly any posts to your credit.

Snowdrift can hardly join the site and be immediately credited with 1,000 Posts! :nut:

Russian Lad
06-01-2015, 16:31
In fact, you sound like somebody familiar on this site and use the same methodology. And it's just a coincidence that you just joined the site and have hardly any posts to your credit, but come blasting out of the gates as if you have been debating with us for months. Hmmm.

He sounds like Evgeniy from the "other site". The same driveling techniques. I figured he was a Russian pretending to be a foreigner the moment he opened his mouth. And I wasn't mistaken. He doctored his profile right away and his Country of origin is Wonderland instead of Spain now.

snowdrift
06-01-2015, 16:39
wow wow wow calm down, guys :) fools rushing in :) I love it.



Thanks for hijacking the thread and trying to turn it into an anti-American bash to deflect the real issue.


Where did you see "an anti-American bash"? In fact, other cases were cited - mostly Canada and the UK. Do you want me to buy you new lenses?)

fenrir
06-01-2015, 17:01
wow wow wow calm down, guys :) fools rushing in :) I love it.




Where did you see "an anti-American bash"? In fact, other cases were cited - mostly Canada and the UK. Do you want me to buy you new lenses?)

You reacted to my post some drivel from Florida which was off the topic of the thread (Russia).

fenrir
06-01-2015, 17:03
Snowdrift can hardly join the site and be immediately credited with 1,000 Posts! :nut:

I see only 20 posts listed.

snowdrift
06-01-2015, 17:06
You reacted to my post some drivel from Florida which was off the topic of the thread (Russia).

There are several examples more alongside that case. It is totally within the topic unless your agenda here is bashing the country you are not even in. In this case I perfectly understand your frustration.

fenrir
06-01-2015, 17:25
There are several examples more alongside that case. It is totally within the topic unless your agenda here is bashing the country you are not even in. In this case I perfectly understand your frustration.

No. The topic is about Russia. You want to deflect the issue elsewhere to make Russia look better.

snowdrift
06-01-2015, 17:36
No. The topic is about Russia. You want to deflect the issue elsewhere to make Russia look better.

The topic also includes the global trends in the field of freedom of speech. And for some strange and unknown reason you try to make Russia look worse. Why?

BTW, I have never seen/met any, say, Russian, Iranian or Chinese come up and bash the USA/UK etc. on a forum like this as you and your fellows do on a daily basis. It`s weird and self-explanatory at the same time, isn`t it? ;)

Korotky Gennady
06-01-2015, 17:37
This story would seem implausible just a year ago, everyone would take it for the April-1st joke, including me. Nowadays somehow it looks VERY plausible. Is it the fault of journalists? I strongly doubt it.

Of course, it's extraordinary plausible. I know one political forum that closed itself temporarily to clean up itself from posts that criticize russian policy toward Ukraina. :)))

And I will not be amazed if expat.ru makes the same in the future.

Korotky Gennady
06-01-2015, 17:51
I have never seen/met any, say, Russian, Iranian or Chinese come up and bash the USA/UK etc. on a forum like this as you and your fellows do on a daily basis.

:D Have you never met a Russian who bashes USA/UK in the Internet !?? :D

A good joke.

I saw them a lot and on the forums of any kind.

TolkoRaz
06-01-2015, 18:41
Of course, it's extraordinary plausible. I know one political forum that closed itself temporarily to clean up itself from posts that criticize russian policy toward Ukraina. :)))
.

Did that belong to RusskiLad? ;)

Russian Lad
06-01-2015, 18:44
Did that belong to RusskiLad?

I guess we are supposed to laugh.:question: Hohoho. A funny joke.

Korotky Gennady
06-01-2015, 18:52
Did that belong to RusskiLad? ;)

:)))))) So do you think it was him also ? :))))

He is extraordinary productive then !

Russian Lad
06-01-2015, 18:59
He is extraordinary productive then !

I am omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. :zoom: But sorry to say, I don't post on Russian forums - too busy with other things.

Armoured
07-01-2015, 13:38
I posted at least 3 cases when people in the West have been bothered or prosecuted by police just because of the way they think.

Bullshit.

I took one of your cases and posted the detailed court documents, where it is quite clear that this was not for just 'thinking', but actively fabricating, publishing and distributing extreme hate literature (see definition). No-one has been prosecuted simply for thinking anything, nor even for mild expressions of dislike. If you look at the case material and law, you'll also note that truth is a defence. In this case it was malicious and fabricated materials.

I won't bother tracking down your other cases and debunking - you chose this one and I provided the _court records_ and decisions to allow others to decide what they think about it.

You haven't got 'loads of cases.' Even your cherry-picking isn't working for you.

snowdrift
07-01-2015, 15:22
Armoured

Bullshit is what you are saying. It was in 1997 and that guy used the most popular media at the time to deliver his message - phones and printed pamphlets to express and propagate his point of view - there was no real serious damage reported. How is it generally different to this moment? The only difference is that it is 2015 now and the Internet became as popular media as TV ousting printed newspapers. And instead of using phones or printing leaflets it takes just a few minutes to post what you think.


I won't bother tracking down your other cases

You just cannot do it because you know that I am right. Relax, boy.

Armoured
07-01-2015, 16:27
Bullshit is what you are saying. It was in 1997 and that guy used the most popular media at the time to deliver his message - phones and printed pamphlets to express and propagate his point of view - there was no real serious damage reported.

You clearly have not read the actual court documents. Take a look at that first. It's not just that he 'propagated his point of view' - he admitted his own published documents were full of lies and slander (in fact, where he changed the words of others and presented them as quotes).

And you're arguing with a claim that I didn't make about some difference between internet and publishing.

snowdrift
07-01-2015, 16:32
were full of lies and slander

your words are full of lies and slander. And you know it.

Fantastika
07-01-2015, 16:56
No. The topic is about Russia. You want to deflect the issue elsewhere to make Russia look better.

Why are you claiming non-Russia posts are off-topic here, and on the other thread "Economic situation in USA" you say non-USA is *not* off topic?

Russian Lad
07-01-2015, 16:59
Why are you claiming non-Russia posts are off-topic here, and on the other thread "Economic situation in USA" you say non-USA is *not* off topic?

I believe he is learning from the "patriots" here.

Fantastika
07-01-2015, 17:04
Here's an example of the 'freedom' in Russia some posters claim exist.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-woman-says-charged-with-inciting-ethnic-hatred-for-posts-on-ukraine-crisis/514044.html

The fact that a RUSSIAN newspaper freely printed this article, without retaliation, decisively proves the complete opposite of your sarcastic conclusion that there exists no press freedom in Russia.

Fantastika
07-01-2015, 17:07
I believe he is learning from the "patriots" here.
Are you referring to the American patriots, the American expat pro-Russian patriots, or the anti-Russian counter-patriots?

snowdrift
07-01-2015, 17:10
Fantastika

don't pay attention. He is just a miserable troll without any solid stance.

Russian Lad
07-01-2015, 17:23
Originally Posted by Russian Lad View Post
I believe he is learning from the "patriots" here.
Are you referring to the American patriots, the American expat pro-Russian patriots, or the anti-Russian counter-patriots?

The pro-Russian "patriots" of course.

Fantastika
07-01-2015, 17:33
Bull...

You haven't got 'loads of cases.' ...


Get real, Armoured. There are *millions* of cases. You never heard of Lois Lerner, Director of the IRS, using the police state power of the IRS to shut down the Tea Party movement in the USSA? The same Lois Lerner who attended 189 meetings at the White House?

The Tea Party was frightened by the IRS and demonized by the Obama government media, into non-existence, which effectively denied the human rights to its millions of members.

Fantastika
07-01-2015, 17:35
The pro-Russian "patriots" of course.

Oh, I thought you meant the counter-Russian anti-patriots.

Russian Lad
07-01-2015, 17:38
counter-Russian anti-patriots.

Anti-counter-Russian-pseudo-real-fake-patriots. I have meant exactly this.

Fantastika
07-01-2015, 17:40
Fantastika

don't pay attention. He is just a...

RL thinks the ruble will go to 100/dollar by June. Not looking good today, but after the Russian holidays, and everyone comes back to work and gets serious again, maybe the ruble will not be so looking like rubble... :)

Fantastika
07-01-2015, 17:42
Anti-counter-Russian-pseudo-real-fake-patriots. I have meant exactly this.

OK, got it :) I was drawing a parallel with US missiles, Russian anti-missiles, American anti-Russian anti-missile missiles...

fenrir
07-01-2015, 20:58
Why are you claiming non-Russia posts are off-topic here, and on the other thread "Economic situation in USA" you say non-USA is *not* off topic?

If you had followed what has been happening over the last few days, you would understand.