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Judge
01-12-2014, 21:17
By the way, our dear leader has just announced the South Stream is no more.
http://lenta.ru/news/2014/12/01/potok/

Good move by Putin, no point wasting time over something that's not gonna get built.let the European countries that were gonna get good gas deals take it up with their masters in Brussels.

Russian Lad
01-12-2014, 21:22
Good move by Putin

What makes it "a move"? It is more like the signature with "I have failed" in it. After all, this "move" comes _after_ Europe has explicitly refused to go on with this project, and even he doesn't deny this: "They are buyers, it is normal". You know, you should apply for a job at Rossiya24, they can do with more fact-twisting wizards there.
For me personally, it is a great relief, I really was hoping the Europeans would not change their mind - I don't want more revanchist wars and land grabs in Europe.


Understanding and dealing with the affects of GeoPolititics etc is how I earn my money! Irrespective of what you think, my Government trained and taught me well!

Well, only if you have been trained to cheer Russia into failure, in this case - you have done a great job.

Judge
01-12-2014, 21:32
What makes it "a move"? It is more like the signature with "I have failed" in it. After all, this "move" comes _after_ Europe has explicitly refused to go on with this project. You know, you should apply for a job at Rossiya24, they can do with more fact-twisting wizards there.

Not all Europe refuse it, just some that dance to America's tune.
If Brussels doesn't want it built and puts pressure on countries that will gain then it's their loss.
It's not cancelled, just that Russia won't bother if they don't want it built. Turkey will get 6% reduced gas deal from next year.
Russia is putting the ball in Brussels court, let them deal with the European countries that would have benefited from this gas deal.

by doing this move, Putin could cause even more of a divide between EU countries...
Read what Austria,Hungary, Bulgaria were saying about the South Stream, they were not against it...

Russian Lad
01-12-2014, 21:35
Russia is putting the ball in Brussels court, let them deal with the European countries that would have benefited from this gas deal.

Right. As if Russia was trying to do it for charity reasons alone and will not sustain any losses from its cancellation. It was a mutually profitable deal, but Europeans have placed Europe's security first - and they are absolutely correct. This gas line would be used as an economic weapon in future revanchist advances. They have seen whom exactly they are dealing with and have decided to nip it in the bud - I would be very alarmed if they didn't. Better lose some money now than face down the barrel of a gun later.

Judge
01-12-2014, 21:46
Right. As if Russia was trying to do it for charity reasons alone and will not sustain any losses from its cancellation. It was a mutually profitable deal, but Europeans have placed Europe's security first - and they are absolutely correct. This gas line would be used as an economic weapon in future revanchist advances. They have seen whom exactly they are dealing with and have decided to nip it in the bud - I would be very alarmed if they didn't. Better lose some money now than face down the barrel of a gun later.

It's all about business,making money,Russia's got something most EU countries need and at a good price, it's not a weapon, you don't pay or you steal gas then you will have problems..Russia supplies over 30% of gas to Germany,it's no weapon over the Germans, it's business, you pay you get gas,no economic weapon.
Like I've said before, Russia has been and still is a very reliable oil/gas supplier,going back to the days of the USSR.

Judge
01-12-2014, 21:54
To carry on from the ruble thread...looks like the South Stream project could be cancelled,Russia found another country to deal with...


Gazprom CEO Aleksey Miller said the energy giant will build a massive gas pipeline that will travel from Russia, transit through Turkey, and stop at the Greek border – giving Russia access to the Southern European market.

The pipeline will have an annual capacity of 63 billion cubic meters. A total of 14 bcm will be delivered to Turkey, which is Gazprom’s second biggest customer in the region after Germany, with the rest to be sold downstream.

The new project will include a special hub on the Turkish-Greek border for customers in southern Europe.

While the pipeline will be registered as a Russian company, Miller said that Gazprom will “consider offers from Turkish partners if they express an interest in buying into the project.”

For now, the supply of Russian gas to Turkey will be raised by 3 billion cubic meters via the already operating Blue Stream pipeline, Vladimir Putin earlier said during a joint press conference with his Turkish counterpart, Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Last year, 13.7 bcm of gas were supplied to Turkeyvia Blue Stream, according to Reuters.

Moscow will also reduce the gas price for Turkish customers by 6 percent from January 1, 2015, Putin said.

http://rt.com/news/210511-russia-turkey-gas-pipeline/

FatAndy
01-12-2014, 21:54
Well... no need, then no need. Will see how it goes. Earlier Bulgaria and other Balkanians wanted to buy it from RF directly, now they will buy it from Turkey/Greece, for some copecks more. Let them deal.

Russian Lad
02-12-2014, 00:11
It's all about business,making money,Russia's got something most EU countries need and at a good price, it's not a weapon, you don't pay or you steal gas then you will have problems..Russia supplies over 30% of gas to Germany,it's no weapon over the Germans, it's business, you pay you get gas,no economic weapon.
Like I've said before, Russia has been and still is a very reliable oil/gas supplier,going back to the days of the USSR.

You are denying the obvious again. It has been used as an economic leverage against Ukraine (and Europe, to a certain extent). It would be used in this capacity again. The biggest problem of the Russian government now is the lack of trust from the West. Actually, zero trust. Everything will be studied under a microscope, deals will be cancelled if there is a slight suspicion it can be used as an economic weapon in the future. It is very inconvenient - pissing against the wind. If you don't trust me, trust your own eyes when you look at the currencies rates as of today.

Uncle Wally
02-12-2014, 00:33
You are denying the obvious again. It has been used as an economic leverage against Ukraine (and Europe, to a certain extent). It would be used in this capacity again. The biggest problem of the Russian government now is the lack of trust from the West. Actually, zero trust. Everything will be studied under a microscope, deals will be cancelled if there is a slight suspicion it can be used as an economic weapon in the future. It is very inconvenient - pissing against the wind. If you don't trust me, trust your own eyes when you look at the currencies rates as of today.


Ukraine couldn't pay for the gas, they have no money remember? You think Russia should give it to them for free? Russia stopped sending them coal, it's going to be very cold in Ukraine this winter.

Russian Lad
02-12-2014, 03:57
Ukraine couldn't pay for the gas, they have no money remember? You think Russia should give it to them for free? Russia stopped sending them coal, it's going to be very cold in Ukraine this winter.

The story there is much more complicated than "no money-no honey". Initially there was one price, then another popped up after Yanuk fled, a much higher one, not to mention the Crimea adventure and the fact that many Ukrainian enterprises there are privatized/nationalized at will by Russia now, including the gas sector one. This equation has a lot of input data. And on the output it is clear that gas was used as a weapon. Just as coal - LNR and DNR appeared for many reasons, one of them - it is where most of Ukraine's coal is.
And the bottom line is and will be:
1) Russia versus Ukraine - Russia wins for now, may lose later, and much more than what meets the eye at present.
2) Russia versus the West - no chance of winning the economic standoff, will lose. A military standoff - most likely there would be no winners.

Fantastika
02-12-2014, 06:35
C'mon RL, US policy in blocking South Stream means Balkan countries and South Europe will pay higher prices for gas. That means the public will be angry at who caused discontinuation of planned pipelines - US of A.

That is, unless those countries start allowing fracking by private individuals and small companies, to build up their own production, and with all the greedy bureaucrats and tax-happy corrupt government officials, and environmentalist whackos throughout Mediterranean and Balkans, is that gonna happen?

Looks like exports in EU are down significantly this year - couldn't possibly have anything to do with sanctions backfiring, could it? No more Euro-stagnation, now it's a recession.

And for their next move, what will the Brainiacs in Brussels do? Shoot themselves in the other foot?

Benedikt
02-12-2014, 06:47
http://www.kleinezeitung.at/k/politik/4609448/Umstrittenes-Projekt_Russland-stoppt-Gaspipeline-South-Stream
http://www.krone.at/Welt/Das_wars_Moskau_gibt_Projekt_South_Stream_auf-EU-Blockadehaltung-Story-429693

EU and special Romania were blocking. now they are talking about the Austrian Hungarian Monopoly on the pipeline. A big part goes through Hungary and in Austria is one of the biggest distribution pumping stations....(Baumgarten)
but I believe it is not over yet. wait for the next winter and Ukraine holds back the Gas deliveries once more destined for the EU.Frau Merkel can then explain the cold ovens to her electorate.
wonder what the USA and EU promised Romania for not allowing to build the pipeline through their territory?

TolkoRaz
02-12-2014, 07:23
Courtesy of STRATFOR


In a move likely to send shockwaves throughout Europe and Eurasia, Russian President Vladimir Putin announced on Monday that Russia will no longer pursue the South Stream natural gas project. Putin cited the European Commission's "non-constructive" approach to the project, which was designed to send Russian natural gas under the Black Sea to Bulgaria and then to Hungary and Austria via Serbia. Putin declared that Russia would instead pursue the construction of a natural gas pipeline with a capacity of 63 billion cubic meters across the Black Sea to Turkey, with the possibility for a hub to be created on the Turkish-Greek border that could potentially send natural gas to Southern Europe.

Putin made the announcement during a state visit to Turkey — a fitting setting given the present geopolitical circumstances. Russia is currently engaged in a fierce competition with the West over the former Soviet periphery, most notably over Ukraine. The Western-backed uprising in Ukraine and Russia's reaction to it — including annexing Crimea and supporting the separatists in eastern Ukraine — have only raised the stakes in this contest, driving Russian-EU relations to their lowest point since the end of the Cold War and enhancing the Black Sea region's strategic value.

South Stream's Significance

Russia's pursuit of the South Stream pipeline was an important aspect of the competition between Russia and the West. The primary purpose of the project was to bypass Ukraine, depriving the country of the economic benefits and political leverage that come with transiting what was, at one point, more than 80 percent of Russian natural gas exports to Europe. The project had been discussed since 2007, but subsequent disruptions of energy flows from Russia to Ukraine — and especially the energy cutoff to Ukrainian consumers in light of the current crisis — gave the project greater impetus.


However, the crisis in Ukraine also intensified Europe's efforts to move away from Russian energy. This led to a more acute implementation of the European Union's Third Energy Package, which requires that pipelines and the natural gas they transport to be owned by separate companies. This was a thinly veiled swipe at Russia, which provides natural gas to — and owns pipeline infrastructure in — many Central and Eastern European countries. This was also a way to undermine the South Stream project, with the EU Commission blocking countries such as Bulgaria and Hungary from participating in the project until Russia revised its plans for the pipeline. These steps created a great deal of tension between Russia and the European Union, particularly since Moscow had already started constructing portions of the pipeline on its soil, but it was assumed that the two sides would settle their differences and eventually make the project happen.

Putin's announcement was thus a surprising about-face, though in many ways the move makes a lot of sense. For one thing, although Gazprom CEO Alexei Miller said that the project is closed, Putin did not abandon South Stream definitively, saying, "If Europe does not want to carry out (South Stream), then it will not be carried out." This places the onus on the Europeans to react and could exacerbate divisions within the bloc, especially because EU members Bulgaria and Hungary have previously spoken against the European Commission's policy for the project. These countries could face significant economic losses with the abandonment of South Stream and are likely to press the commission to revise its position.

Moreover, the projected cost of constructing South Stream had increased by nearly 50 percent to almost $30 billion. Because Russia is under significant economic strain due to the low price of oil and sanctions from the West, it would be difficult for Moscow to foot the bill — especially since major partners within the South Stream consortium such as Italian energy firm ENI had been hinting at leaving the project. Blaming the European Commission for the cancellation of South Stream gives Russia a convenient exit from the project without looking weak.

Turkey's Unique Role

Finally, there is the Turkish factor. The crisis in Ukraine has increased the Black Sea region's strategic importance to Russia. Moreover, Turkey is a key player in the Eurasia's energy politics, given its strategic trans-continental location and its massive energy consumption. Turkey is one of Russia's largest markets for energy exports, but it is also an important country for Europe's efforts to diversify its energy supply via the Southern Corridor and to reduce its reliance on Russia. Turkey already transports Azerbaijani oil to Europe and would be indispensable for the proposed Trans-Caspian pipeline, which is designed to bring natural gas from Turkmenistan across the Caspian Sea and from Azerbaijan to Europe.

This makes Turkey crucial for Russia and likely explains Putin's announcement that South Stream will be replaced with a major pipeline expansion to Turkey. Several months ago, Russian officials seemingly brushed off a suggestion from Turkish officials that South Stream's route be altered to go through Turkey. But it is exactly this plan that appears to have materialized, with Russia purchasing Turkish favor by redirecting its major energy project through Turkish soil.

Turkey is consciously increasing its energy reliance on Moscow as a way to avoid confrontation with an old competitor while maintaining a stable energy supply during rough economic times. However, Turkey will also see the need to maintain some balance through projects that bypass Russia, such as the Trans-Adriatic Pipeline, making it clear that Turkey will act as a bridge for multiple partners. Still, the country's close ties with Russia will make the West question how much it can rely on Turkey at a time when the United States is looking to Ankara as a strategic partner to counter Moscow — especially in undermining Russia's energy leverage over Europe and in carrying out Western military maneuvers in the Black Sea.

That said, there is nothing definitive in Putin's announcing the cancellation of South Stream. The project could be revived in the future, or the same EU countries could get linked to Russian supplies via the potential gas hub in Greece that Putin mentioned. However, as with South Stream, EU regulatory hurdles could hamper a significant expansion of Russia's capacity to export natural gas through Turkey to customers in EU states. But the announcement does indicate that Russia is willing to raise the stakes in the confrontation with the West and that there are other important partners willing to play ball with Moscow.

Yaks
02-12-2014, 08:22
The irony is that Turkey and Russia are on opposite sides in the Syrian conflict and without Russian support, Assad would likely face strong western military intervention. Yet Erdogan accuses the west of dragging their heels to "let muslims die".

This is a Turkish person I know writing to pravda, whitewashing a considerable amount in the process: http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/01-12-2014/129168-turkey_russia-0/

Judge
02-12-2014, 09:02
You are denying the obvious again. It has been used as an economic leverage against Ukraine (and Europe, to a certain extent). It would be used in this capacity again. The biggest problem of the Russian government now is the lack of trust from the West. Actually, zero trust. Everything will be studied under a microscope, deals will be cancelled if there is a slight suspicion it can be used as an economic weapon in the future. It is very inconvenient - pissing against the wind. If you don't trust me, trust your own eyes when you look at the currencies rates as of today.

So why doesn't Russia turn off the Nord Stream to Germany?Merkel has been a harsh critic of Putin these past months,there's been no gas cuts via the Nord stream....
Bulgaria, the poorest country in the EU would have earned $400mn from transit fees alone,1000's of people would have had jobs,now they get 'F' all cos some suits in Brussels don't want to do business with Russia cos of pressure from the US .
About it being a 'good move', Russia's about to start laying pipes in the black sea, what if they started and wasted billions or rubles and time, it would be all for nothing, better off not even starting if you're not sure that you can connect ...


In early June, European officials demanded that the Bulgarian government halt work on the pipeline, saying it breached the region’s rules.

Soon after, a delegation of senators, including Ron Johnson, Republican of Wisconsin; John McCain, Republican of Arizona; and Chris Murphy, Democrat of Connecticut, met with Bulgaria’s prime minister to raise concerns about the project and the influence it gives Russia. They also criticized a pipeline contract awarded to a Russian company sanctioned by the United States. At a joint news conference later, Prime Minister Plamen Oresharski announced that Bulgaria would block the pipeline, called South Stream.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/01/business/international/south-stream-pipeline-project-in-bulgaria-is-delayed.html?_r=0

Why does America have to get involved? it doesn't buy Russian gas and doesn't supply to Europe,yet.

Benedikt
02-12-2014, 09:33
Why does America have to get involved? it doesn't buy Russian gas and doesn't supply to Europe,yet.[/QUOTE]



they think the world has to jump when they whistle. and both Frau Merkel and Obama can't stand Putin. if they have their dislikes it is up to them. but they take it out on the backs of their people. and the electorate will thank them the next time. Obama does not have to worry anything about re election, he is out anyway.
Turkey will NEVER become a member of the EU as long as the Krauts and Frogs (or at least the -elected- politicians) are against it.And while VV is not a friend of the Moslems either, he keeps private feelings out of politics. and makes business.and why not?

Yaks
02-12-2014, 09:46
Why these assumptions about America. America has very little to do with. Europe is not at America's beck and call(Just look at their very different attitudes to Israel.) Why is it so amazing that Europeans-half of which were controlled by the Soviet Union for half a century-might take issue with the annexation of Crimea and Russia's intervention in Eastern Ukraine? It would be incredibly unusual if they DIDN'T do what they have done to protest. America just voices the same concern just as Australia and many other western countries do.

Judge
02-12-2014, 09:59
Why these assumptions about America. America has very little to do with. Europe is not at America's beck and call(Just look at their very different attitudes to Israel.) .

There's no assumption,Brussels tried to put pressure on Bulgaria,they didn't listen and next up the Americans came and straight after construction of the South Stream was halted,what do you think the Americans said,no threats,nothing, why even make the trip over to Bulgaria and discuss the pipeline?


America just voices the same concern just as Australia and many other western countries do

No threats, no visists?

it would be even funny for some Australian politicans to turn up in Bulgaira,Serbia or Hungary and warn them not to join a Russian pipeline..In the link I posted, why did the American politicans even mention the topic about Russian gas.

Judge
02-12-2014, 10:07
Why does America have to get involved? it doesn't buy Russian gas and doesn't supply to Europe,yet.




they think the world has to jump when they whistle. and both Frau Merkel and Obama can't stand Putin. if they have their dislikes it is up to them. but they take it out on the backs of their people. and the electorate will thank them the next time. Obama does not have to worry anything about re election, he is out anyway.
Turkey will NEVER become a member of the EU as long as the Krauts and Frogs (or at least the -elected- politicians) are against it.And while VV is not a friend of the Moslems either, he keeps private feelings out of politics. and makes business.and why not?


How is the cancellation of South Stream going down in Austria, they were going to get a good deal and were happy with this pipeline....
Merkel is OK, her country gets all the Russian gas they need via the Nord Stream, do the Germans share some of this gas with Austria?

Yaks
02-12-2014, 10:57
There's no assumption,Brussels tried to put pressure on Bulgaria,they didn't listen and next up the Americans came and straight after construction of the South Stream was halted,what do you think the Americans said,no threats,nothing, why even make the trip over to Bulgaria and discuss the pipeline?



No threats, no visists?

it would be even funny for some Australian politicans to turn up in Bulgaira,Serbia or Hungary and warn them not to join a Russian pipeline..In the link I posted, why did the American politicans even mention the topic about Russian gas.

Actually Bulgaria has been quite vocal against Russia-even stating they will ditch all Russian military aircraft in favour of western aircraft. I really don't know what you've been reading.

Yaks
02-12-2014, 11:13
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2584461/Bulgaria-Lithuania-fear-Russias-hit-list-U-S-Vice-President-Joe-Biden-promises-Were-you.html

http://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/video-2/ukraine-today-bulgarian-president-condemns-russia-rosen-plevneliev-says-ukraine-invasion-shatters-un-charter-366135.html?flavour=full

http://www.voanews.com/content/reu-us-vice-president-biden-to-visit-romania/1912726.html

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/bulgaria-s-plevneliev-on-ukraine-russian-sanctions-LKCYXKtQRUqOXWnPNOfkig.html

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/508531.html

Bulgaria's military plans to stop using three dozen of its Russian-made fighter jets and bombers to reassert its independence from Moscow, the defense minister said, following the Bulgarian president's denouncement of Russia as a "nationalist, aggressive state."

In Bulgaria, President Rosen Plevneliev said in an interview with Germany's Frankfurter Allgemeine published over the weekend that "Russia must learn to have partners, not vassals and subjects."

"We all want as a partner a country that has produced Tchaikovsky, Tolstoy and Dostoevsky," Plevneliev was quoted as saying. "But facts show that today we have to deal with another Russia — with a nationalist, aggressive state under a president who does not regard Europe as a partner, but as an opponent."

Bulgaria's president told Frankfurter Allgemeine that "all Europeans have won with the fall of the Berlin Wall, gaining freedom, democracy, perspective."

"However, Vladimir Putin sees the fall of the Wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union as a catastrophe, which leads to his interpretation of history that opposes Europe and its values as a matter of principle," Plevneliev was quoted as saying.

Uncle Wally
02-12-2014, 11:25
If you don't do what America wants you to do just look at Syria and that's what you get.

Yaks
02-12-2014, 11:33
If you don't do what America wants you to do just look at Syria and that's what you get.

Syria has slaughtered tens of thousands of its own people. The US is bombing ISIS and Al Nursa, not Syrian government. Military support for the Free Syrian Army by the US is extremely limited as it is also for the Kurds. The former get most of their support from various gulf states and Turkey. Turkey has been highly critical of the lack of support the US has provided.

Uncle Wally
02-12-2014, 11:50
Syria has slaughtered tens of thousands of its own people. The US is bombing ISIS and Al Nursa, not Syrian government. Military support for the Free Syrian Army by the US is extremely limited as it is also for the Kurds. The former get most of their support from various gulf states and Turkey. Turkey has been highly critical of the lack of support the US has provided.


As you like to say, lol


Syria would not let a gas pipeline go through their country.

Russian Lad
02-12-2014, 12:08
Why these assumptions about America. America has very little to do with. Europe is not at America's beck and call(Just look at their very different attitudes to Israel.) Why is it so amazing that Europeans-half of which were controlled by the Soviet Union for half a century-might take issue with the annexation of Crimea and Russia's intervention in Eastern Ukraine? It would be incredibly unusual if they DIDN'T do what they have done to protest. America just voices the same concern just as Australia and many other western countries do.

Absolutely agree. Germany and France, the locomotives, would not tolerate any serious meddling. Merkel has had her doubts for some months, but finally she has taken the decision - against Russia. It must have been very hard for the Russian government to make an enemy out of her, but they have succeeded.


C'mon RL, US policy in blocking South Stream means Balkan countries and South Europe will pay higher prices for gas. That means the public will be angry at who caused discontinuation of planned pipelines - US of A.

I am sorry, but it was Russia who killed this project - with its bare hands. A bully working hard to pass for a victim. There is some momentum and local public trust in this cunning approach, but long term it will end up in a crash with a boom. The currencies are just the beginning. An unprecedented shockwave will shudder the whole Russian economy soon. You can fool a semi-educated idiot in the street, even millions of them, but you cannot fool the economy. Pay time.

Judge
02-12-2014, 12:16
Actually Bulgaria has been quite vocal against Russia-even stating they will ditch all Russian military aircraft in favour of western aircraft. I really don't know what you've been reading.

Vocal on other things like weapons/Crimea ,would be strange for a NATO country to keep buying from the so called enemy...
but when it comes to the gas deal, Bulgaria have been pushing for it..

Like you said earlier, Russia and Turkey don't see eye to eye on Syria,but they are still doing business..
If we are talking strictly about gas, then all who were in on the deal were OK with it, but the EU came up with new rule that the pipeline should be open to third parties,the EU pushed for this new rule when Ukraine didn't sign the EU trade deal( a week after).Russia signed the gas deal for the South Stream before this 'Third Energy Package' came into force..

Judge
02-12-2014, 12:18
Absolutely agree. Germany and France, the locomotives, would not tolerate any serious meddling.

:cheerleader::cheerleader:

sorry RL,I can't think of a better response.
go on, i'll just say, why do you think the Yanks have been tapping up Merkel's phone, to find out which toothpaste she uses?

Russian Lad
02-12-2014, 12:20
If we are talking strictly about gas, then all who were in on the deal were OK with it, but the EU came up with new rule that the pipeline should be open to third parties,the EU pushed for this new rule when Ukraine didn't sign the EU trade deal( a week after).Russia signed the gas deal for the South Stream before this 'Third Energy Package' came into force..

It is all about principles. Security comes before profits. Russia has become unpredictable and dangerous for Europe, that's what it boils down to. Europe has taken the correct decision to cancel the project. And I had a good laugh yesterday when our dear leader announced its cancellation _after_ the EU had already taken this decision. As if his opinion mattered at this point. Hahaha. Millions of Russians still may have taken this at face value though, this lame show after the fait accomplit.:)


why do you think the Yanks have been tapping up Merkel's phone, to find out which toothpaste she uses?

I am sure the Russian special services tap and eavesdrop at will too, wherever they can. One thing is to listen, another thing is to act. There is a huge gap between listening and taking action. The European response came to Russia's actions and lies and denials regarding these actions, not to Russia's intelligence activities.

Uncle Wally
02-12-2014, 12:26
It is all about principles. Security comes before profits. Russia has become unpredictable and dangerous for Europe, that's what it boils down to. Europe has taken the correct decision to cancel the project. And I had a good laugh yesterday when our dear leader announced its cancellation _after_ the EU had already taken this decision. As if his opinion mattered at this point. Hahaha. Millions of Russians still may have taken this at face value though, this lame show after the fait accomplit.:)



Let's see how the like it when he shuts of the gas.

Russian Lad
02-12-2014, 12:34
Let's see how the like it when he shuts of the gas.

In other words, will use it as an economic weapon again? I am sure Europe is working on this scenario too. Now that the sheep mask has been torn off and the bleeding fangs are visible, conversations and actions will be short and to the point.

Benedikt
02-12-2014, 12:41
if you can red german, there are the two links of the newspapers. if not, well, you have to stick to CNN or Fox news who for sure will say something different. so be it.
you believe yours,I believe mine.And I believe mine more than yours.

Russian Lad
02-12-2014, 12:45
And I believe mine more than yours.

Be my guest. How are your ruble savings doing, Ben? I do hope you have suffered for your wrong beliefs. After all, it is Pay Time. Nothing personal.

Benedikt
02-12-2014, 12:53
Be my guest. How are your ruble savings doing, Ben? I do hope you have suffered for your wrong beliefs. After all, it is Pay Time. Nothing personal.



Nach erheblichem Druck aus Brüssel und Washington hatte das Transitland Bulgarien im Juni die Vorarbeiten an dem Pipeline-Projekt ausgesetzt. Die USA hatten insbesondere kritisiert, dass Bulgarien ein russisches Konsortium ausgewählt hatte, um den Teilabschnitt der Leitung durch das Land zu bauen.


my money? i have no problems with that. Raiffeisen has invested my funds very wisely and profitable indeed and I am laughing out of their offices every year. when I get my statement.and next year my retirement fund will pay out. i have enough to keep me in Champagen and black Caviar for breakfast for many years to come. and not only Borodino and margarine and Chicory coffee.

why are you so obsessed about my money and wellbeing? YOUR bank advised you wrong or what?

Armoured
02-12-2014, 12:55
If we are talking strictly about gas, then all who were in on the deal were OK with it, but the EU came up with new rule that the pipeline should be open to third parties,the EU pushed for this new rule when Ukraine didn't sign the EU trade deal( a week after).Russia signed the gas deal for the South Stream before this 'Third Energy Package' came into force..

Strictly on the gas, the big thing is the EU doesn't like the ownership of pipes by a national monopoly that specifically excludes other producers/providers from selling through those pipes.

Economically it's rational - the standard response to a monopoly is to create a monopsony (single purchaser) or to break the hold the monopoly has on supply. Monopsony is hard to stick to for EU because each government has different pressure points (that Russian government has been very skilled at exploiting). Therefore, ensure the pipes can be accessed by anyone. Or encourage pipes to be built by others (including LNG import facilities).

Comments I read today is that Turkey is not a solution to this for Russia. Turkey is beginning to have competitive supply (or will in a few years).

This idea that the (new) Turkish/Russian line will have pipes 'to the border' of Greece is just delaying the next stage in that fight.

Russia as a skilled monopolist is playing a combination game of trying to make entry for others difficult - including playing with pricing / long-term supply arrangements. For EU as a whole, not so skillfully, but trying to counter this by ensuring that e.g. pipe access and spot prices mean that anyone who can supply at a cheaper price can at any time. This is a threat to Russian gas monopoly to EU.

The political backdrop (Ukraine) has just made this much, much more politically feasible. In this sense, the Ukraine dispute is a long-term commercial disaster for the Russian gas monopoly - as it's made countering that monopoly a top priority, where it wasn't when e.g. Nord Stream was built.

Russian Lad
02-12-2014, 12:58
my money? i have no problems with that. Raiffeisen has invested my funds very wisely and profitable indeed and i am laughing out of their offices every year when i get my statement.

You said you keep your savings in rubles. I haven't heard about anyone investing rubles in banks and laughing on their way out of the bank offices lately. You may want to consider applying for the Guinness book records. That is, if you haven't been lying to us all along regarding this. The currencies have grown by like 40% during the last three months alone. I haven't heard about Raiffeisen offering 3 months deposits in rubles promising 40% interest.

Benedikt
02-12-2014, 13:05
You said you keep your savings in rubles. I haven't heard about anyone investing rubles in banks and laughing on their way out of the bank offices lately. You may want to consider applying for the Guinness book records.



most probably in your language. to me it is all the same. and as I said, Raiffeisen does well for me. and why and how for sure I will not spread out here.

Yaks
02-12-2014, 13:05
if you can red german, there are the two links of the newspapers. if not, well, you have to stick to CNN or Fox news who for sure will say something different. so be it.
you believe yours,I believe mine.And I believe mine more than yours.

not sure about red German but sure I can read German, it's like bad Yiddish :P

I wonder if my Prussian ancestors beat your Austrian ones back in the Austro-Prussian war? :D

Judge
02-12-2014, 13:12
In other words, will use it as an economic weapon again? I am sure Europe is working on this scenario too. Now that the sheep mask has been torn off and the bleeding fangs are visible, conversations and actions will be short and to the point.

It's better to have a weapon than no weapon, don't you think?

Time for my siesta, I hope I don't see zombies with bleeding fangs .:vampire:

Uncle Wally
02-12-2014, 13:27
In other words, will use it as an economic weapon again? I am sure Europe is working on this scenario too. Now that the sheep mask has been torn off and the bleeding fangs are visible, conversations and actions will be short and to the point.


Please tell me what America is doing? Economic war no? That's how wars start.

Russian Lad
02-12-2014, 13:37
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYD9xu92zSg

Armoured
02-12-2014, 14:02
... it's not a weapon ...
Like I've said before, Russia has been and still is a very reliable oil/gas supplier,going back to the days of the USSR.


It's better to have a weapon than no weapon, don't you think?

Wait - which is it again? A weapon or not a weapon?

Russian Lad
02-12-2014, 14:18
Wait - which is it again? A weapon or not a weapon?

When people lie hard and defend an evil cause, they often offer mutually exclusive, contradictory statements. Let's try to be forgiving, in the spirit of the coming Christmas season.:11721:

Uncle Wally
02-12-2014, 14:28
Wait - which is it again? A weapon or not a weapon?


He meant Russia is not using it as a weapon, yet.

Uncle Wally
02-12-2014, 14:30
When people lie hard and defend an evil cause, they often offer mutually exclusive, contradictory statements. Let's try to be forgiving, in the spirit of the coming Christmas season.:11721:


Hey yeah! Marry Christmas to you!

Armoured
02-12-2014, 14:35
He meant Russia is not using it as a weapon, yet.

How comforting. So a guy walks into a bar with an AK-47 (or M-16 if you prefer) and lays it on the table. When you get nervous and ask the manager, he goes and speaks to the guy, and the manager comes back to you and says:

"It's not an issue - he's not using it, yet."

Russian Lad
02-12-2014, 14:39
Seems like we have shredded the "patriots" into pulp. I look around and see only intellectual corpses and torn chunks of their thought meat all around. What a mess. Wonder if Judge has stormed out to exchange his remaining rubles into dollars as we speak.

Judge
02-12-2014, 14:51
Wait - which is it again? A weapon or not a weapon?

It's which ever way you want to see it, I'm just playing lad's imaginary weapon game.

Judge
02-12-2014, 14:56
Seems like we have shredded the "patriots" into pulp. I look around and see only intellectual corpses and torn chunks of their thought meat all around. What a mess. Wonder if Judge has stormed out to exchange his remaining rubles into dollars as we speak.
I'll send your prize to the new Gazprom hq in st petes:)

So is the nord stream a weapon?

Russian Lad
02-12-2014, 15:14
So is the nord stream a weapon?

Did you stop murdering people? Yes or No? It is a bit more complicated than a yes-no answer.
The plan, in my view, was to make Europe fully dependent on the Russian energy supplies and then do to, say, the Baltic states the same as has been done to Ukraine or much worse. This plan has been busted, precaution measures are being taken now to avoid further surprises. Again, zero trust is the main issue here - they are doing one thing in Ukraine, militarily and what not, and claim the opposite. If you don't trust a party anymore you don't deal with it.
Even if we assume for a second that he doesn't have any wild fantasies about restoring the former USSR, he has lost trust. Politically and partnership-wise, the West seems to have laid aside any hopes with this crew. I told you we are going to come to that like two years ago, back then it seemed to you (the collective "patriots" you here on this forum) like my deranged fantasies, now it is your grim reality. Live with it. (where is that wide grin button)

Benedikt
02-12-2014, 17:51
You said you keep your savings in rubles. I haven't heard about anyone investing rubles in banks and laughing on their way out of the bank offices lately. You may want to consider applying for the Guinness book records. That is, if you haven't been lying to us all along regarding this. The currencies have grown by like 40% during the last three months alone. I haven't heard about Raiffeisen offering 3 months deposits in rubles promising 40% interest.


not me.

Benedikt
02-12-2014, 18:02
not sure about red German but sure I can read German, it's like bad Yiddish :P

I wonder if my Prussian ancestors beat your Austrian ones back in the Austro-Prussian war? :D



or have a meaningful conversation here on the site,you turn to personal mudslinging. cheapskate you are.
better turn it down, I don't like your tone and I am sure neither does admin.

Uncle Wally
02-12-2014, 18:09
When people lie hard and defend an evil cause, they often offer mutually exclusive, contradictory statements. Let's try to be forgiving, in the spirit of the coming Christmas season.:11721:


How comforting. So a guy walks into a bar with an AK-47 (or M-16 if you prefer) and lays it on the table. When you get nervous and ask the manager, he goes and speaks to the guy, and the manager comes back to you and says:

"It's not an issue - he's not using it, yet."


Yes, it's what Americans call "open carry". The bartender has a shotgun under the bar anyway.

Explain nukes, it's like open carry everyone that has them wants you to know they have them because they don't really want to use them, well everybody but Israel.

Uncle Wally
02-12-2014, 18:17
You said you keep your savings in rubles. I haven't heard about anyone investing rubles in banks and laughing on their way out of the bank offices lately. You may want to consider applying for the Guinness book records. That is, if you haven't been lying to us all along regarding this. The currencies have grown by like 40% during the last three months alone. I haven't heard about Raiffeisen offering 3 months deposits in rubles promising 40% interest.


I did here of one Ukrainian who was changing his "rabbits" to rubles. Like millions of them and taking a big hit on it. Maybe he's from the east, don't know as the woman was telling me this she bent over the table and all I was thinking about was "gee she's got nice tits.

Yaks
02-12-2014, 23:41
or have a meaningful conversation here on the site,you turn to personal mudslinging. cheapskate you are.
better turn it down, I don't like your tone and I am sure neither does admin.

Da liegt eben der Hase im Pfeffer.

TolkoRaz
02-12-2014, 23:51
Da liegt eben der Hase im Pfeffer.

Warum hältst du immer mit deiner Meinung hinterm Berg? ;)

TolkoRaz
02-12-2014, 23:53
Yes, it's what Americans call "open carry". The bartender has a shotgun under the bar anyway.

Explain nukes, it's like open carry everyone that has them wants you to know they have them because they don't really want to use them, well everybody but Israel.

Why does Israel want to use them? :confused:

History records that the only country ever to have used Nuclear weapons is the US of A and it was against defenceless, unarmed citizens on both occasions!

Yaks
02-12-2014, 23:57
[QUOTE=TolkoRaz;1376851]Warum hältst du immer mit deiner Meinung hinterm Berg? ;)[/QUOTE

потому что потому что...

Russian Lad
02-12-2014, 23:57
I did here of one Ukrainian who was changing his "rabbits" to rubles.

Probably you meant Belarus, our knowledgeable and seasoned friend.


not me.

Ben, thank you for a detailed explanation, it is all clear now. Mind it, all I am interested in is how you manage not to lose on the rubles you keep in a bank, given the current developments. I haven't heard about a single Russian who has succeeded recently. Either you are a great genius or a blatant, unscrupulous liar. Please help us understand that. Your "not me" hasn't helped us. And don't worry, you will not be robbed online here if you just explain the generalities. Who knows, I may change my euros back into rubles tomorrow to follow your example. I want to laugh all my way from a Russian bank clutching a pile of Russian rubles too, especially under the existing circumstances. I want to fulfil my constitutional right to patriotism. Please kindly help me.

fenrir
03-12-2014, 00:35
Why does Israel want to use them? :confused:

History records that the only country ever to have used Nuclear weapons is the US of A and it was against defenceless, unarmed citizens on both occasions!

How many defenseless, unarmed civilians did the Red Army kill marching into Eastern/Central Europe? Hint: Many more than died from the a-bomb attacks.

fenrir
03-12-2014, 00:38
Probably you meant Belarus, our knowledgeable and seasoned friend.



Ben, thank you for a detailed explanation, it is all clear now. Mind it, all I am interested in is how you manage not to lose on the rubles you keep in a bank, given the current developments. I haven't heard about a single Russian who has succeeded recently. Either you are a great genius or a blatant, unscrupulous liar. Please help us understand that. Your "not me" hasn't helped us. And don't worry, you will not be robbed online here if you just explain the generalities. Who knows, I may change my euros back into rubles tomorrow to follow your example. I want to laugh all my way from a Russian bank clutching a pile of Russian rubles too, especially under the existing circumstances. I want to fulfil my constitutional right to patriotism. Please kindly help me.

Just come out and tell the truth: Ben lied through his teeth saying he kept his money in rubles. Only the insane or clinically delusional would these days.

Russian Lad
03-12-2014, 01:16
Just come out and tell the truth: Ben lied through his teeth saying he kept his money in rubles.

I decided to offer Ben the benefit of doubt. Or maybe I want to prolong and to enjoy his mental agony. It is one of the two or probably both, I haven't made up my mind yet.:)

Carl
03-12-2014, 01:49
Why these assumptions about America. America has very little to do with.

Well, there you go again Yak..spouting off about sh*t you obviously know nothing about. Didnt you know..? America is the great evil facing mankind! Those fatties are responsible for all the worlds ills!! They can't wait to start WWIII. They dream of war with Russia! You really need to start listening to Willy-Wally, FatAndy, and Tolka more closely. I'm more than a bit shocked and disappointed in your blanketed ignorance of the situation...... :suspect:

Uncle Wally
03-12-2014, 02:14
Well, there you go again Yak..spouting off about sh*t you obviously know nothing about. Didnt you know..? America is the great evil facing mankind! Those fatties are responsible for all the worlds ills!! They can't wait to start WWIII. They dream of war with Russia! You really need to start listening to Willy-Wally, FatAndy, and Tolka more closely. I'm more than a bit shocked and disappointed in your blanketed ignorance of the situation...... :suspect:


For some reason I'm not shock by your ignorance. Disappointed yes.

Judge
03-12-2014, 08:39
Did you stop murdering people? Yes or No? It is a bit more complicated than a yes-no answer.
The plan, in my view, was to make Europe fully dependent on the Russian energy supplies and then do to, say, the Baltic states the same as has been done to Ukraine or much worse. This plan has been busted, precaution measures are being taken now to avoid further surprises. Again, zero trust is the main issue here - they are doing one thing in Ukraine, militarily and what not, and claim the opposite. If you don't trust a party anymore you don't deal with it.
Even if we assume for a second that he doesn't have any wild fantasies about restoring the former USSR, he has lost trust. Politically and partnership-wise, the West seems to have laid aside any hopes with this crew. I told you we are going to come to that like two years ago, back then it seemed to you (the collective "patriots" you here on this forum) like my deranged fantasies, now it is your grim reality. Live with it. (where is that wide grin button)

More gibberish, can't give a straight answer....
If Russia was to use the Nord Sream as a weapon it would only be shooting itself in the foot,they would lose the Germans as clients,now if the Germans started stealing the gas or stopped paying for whatever reason then you would expect Russia to do something about this, and one thing they would do is cut the gas...

Judge
03-12-2014, 08:48
Well, there you go again Yak..spouting off about sh*t you obviously know nothing about. Didnt you know..? America is the great evil facing mankind! Those fatties are responsible for all the worlds ills!! They can't wait to start WWIII. They dream of war with Russia! You really need to start listening to Willy-Wally, FatAndy, and Tolka more closely. I'm more than a bit shocked and disappointed in your blanketed ignorance of the situation...... :suspect:

Since Yak can't answer,maybe you can... why did American politicans put pressure on countries like Bulgaria not to construct South Stream?
Yak said they only voice their concern, which is no threat,but in the real world is a veiled threat and if you don't listen then you might get a visit from some of our politicans..

so again, if America doesn't buy Russian gas and doesn't supply gas to Europe,why should they be concerned.

America is basically saying to the EU, we know what's best for you...:rolleyes:

You and a few others(who want to see Russia weak) should be patting America on the back,it's a victory for them that the South Stream isn't going ahead..I don't know why you don't want to admit it...The losers in this are yet again Russia and some EU countries,mostly the poor EU countries..

Russian Lad
03-12-2014, 09:05
If Russia was to use the Nord Sream as a weapon it would only be shooting itself in the foot,they would lose the Germans as clients,now if the Germans started stealing the gas or stopped paying for whatever reason then you would expect Russia to do something about this, and one thing they would do is cut the gas...

You know, it is not my problem at this point that you are turning a blind eye to what the rest of the civilized world has clearly seen regarding this. Not my problem at all. Two years ago I was in a minority, now my position has over 100 countries, with all their industrial, political and economic might, and most of the world's continents behind it. And all this might is being thrown against your opinion. And your opinion will be ruthlessly crushed, metaphorically speaking, and I will stand laughing and victorious over its smoldering intellectual ruins.
Now I can go to bed again and sleep for two more hours with a happy smile on my face.


You and a few others(who want to see Russia weak) should be patting America on the back,it's a victory for them that the South Stream isn't going ahead..I don't know why you don't want to admit it...

Yes, it is the victory for the Americans as well, just as for Canadians, Australians, Ukrainians, etc. I don't have a problem admitting this. You don't realize it yet, but long-term it is a victory for Russia as well.

Judge
03-12-2014, 09:18
Nord Stream is just a part of the equation. You know, it is not my problem at this point that you are turning a blind eye to what the rest of the civilized world has clearly seen regarding this. Not my problem at all. Two years ago I was in a minority, now my position has over 100 countries, with all their industrial, political and economic might, and most of the world's continents behind it. And all this might is being thrown against your opinion. And your opinion will be ruthlessly crushed, metaphorically speaking, and I will stand laughing and victorious over its smoldering ruins.
Now I can go to bed again and sleep for two more hours with a happy smile on my face.

A 100 countries, please list them all when you wake up...
Let's see if Turkey will join the 100, now they have agreed on much more trade with Russia, it will only be time for some suits in Brussels and washington to 'voice their concern'.

a song for you,sleep with one eye open to protect your euros from the zombies who might steal them...

Say your prayers little one
Don't forget, my son
To include everyone
Tuck you in, warm within
Keep you free from sin
Till the sandman he comes
Sleep with one eye open
Gripping your pillow tight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD-E-LDc384

Russian Lad
03-12-2014, 09:28
Let's see if Turkey will join the 100, now they have agreed on much more trade with Russia

Turkey will twist Russia's hands like there is no tomorrow in this deal, and you know it.
No one is stopping trade with Russia, at least not completely. In general, tactically the West will continue the conversation, the trade, etc. Strategically they have already made up their mind.


A 100 countries, please list them

All who voted against the annexation of the Crimea, to begin with.

Judge
03-12-2014, 09:32
Yes, it is the victory for the Americans as well, just as for Canadians, Australians, Ukrainians, etc. I don't have a problem admitting this. You don't realize it yet, but long-term it is a victory for Russia as well.

Tell that to the Bulgarians who would have made $400m from transit fees,1000s with work, not only in Bulgaria,but in the other countries that would have made $$millions...funny, the ones who weren't in line to make money were the ones objecting to this...It does make sense really, now we will seeing Ukraine pipelines controlled by US and EU companies.:focus:

Armoured
03-12-2014, 09:38
...funny, the ones who weren't in line to make money were the ones objecting to this...

Phrased differently, only the ones that were bought off were pushing for it.

Judge
03-12-2014, 10:11
Phrased differently, only the ones that were bought off were pushing for it.

Are you saying the Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi was bought off?


Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi was the driving force behind a joint letter in support of the South Stream project to the European Commission

Renzi proposed that the leaders of Bulgaria, Serbia, Hungary, Greece, Slovenia, Croatia and Austria write to the Commission is support of the Gazprom-backed South Stream pipeline.

You know, you might be right, the last Italian PM was friendly with the Kremlin,maybe the new one is too.

and the Austrian President Heinz Fischer was also bought off..

Austrian President Heinz Fischer also defended the South Stream project, saying: "No one can explain to me - and I can't explain to the Austrian people - why a pipeline that crosses EU and NATO countries can't go 50 km into Austria."

Armoured, you are more or less saying all the leaders of the countries where this pipeline was to be built were bought off by the Kremlin.
How I wonder, envelopes stuffed with cash, or black bin bags handed over down some dark ally..

JanC
03-12-2014, 10:56
Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi was the driving force behind a joint letter in support of the South Stream project to the European Commission

Probably a coincidence: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-s-ditching-of-south-stream-hits-italian-oil-services-firm-saipem/512486.html

Judge
03-12-2014, 11:17
Probably a coincidence: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-s-ditching-of-south-stream-hits-italian-oil-services-firm-saipem/512486.html

Maybe you don't know,but the italian economy isn't in the best of shape right now,more companies going under isn't a good thing,and the Italian leader is looking out for Italian jobs and italian citizens to be able to afford cheap gas,it's different from being 'bought off'.
For Saipem it will have a knock on effect to smaller frims that supply goods to Saipem,more lay offs just before the New Years..Fantastic news for many don't you think..

Many companies in all the countries where this pipeline was to go through will lose out, millions of euros and loss of work,just what the EU economy needs right now.

JanC
03-12-2014, 11:25
Maybe you don't know,but the italian economy isn't in the best of shape right now

It hasn't been for decades, frankly.


it's different from being 'bought off'.


Totally, but I think the point wasn't so much about a possible criminal nature of the scheme as it was about financial gain being the overriding argument.



Many companies in all the countries where this pipeline was to go through will lose out, millions of euros and loss of work,just what the EU economy needs right now.

Easy come, easy go? Who knows what will happen in the future anyway. I think it's obvious why it's difficult to go into a large project with Russia at this point in time. Uncertainty doesn't work well for projects that cost billions.

Judge
03-12-2014, 11:49
Totally, but I think the point wasn't so much about a possible criminal nature of the scheme as it was about financial gain being the overriding argument.

Like I said at the start, it's just business, where all sides that are part of the deal gain...now all sides lose.



Easy come, easy go? Who knows what will happen in the future anyway.
I like your a capitalist attitude,strongest survive and the weakest end up on the scrapheap,just a few more 1000 unemployed hard working people applying for benefits,more protests and riots on the streets of EU countries..


I think it's obvious why it's difficult to go into a large project with Russia at this point in time. Uncertainty doesn't work well for projects that cost billions.
Not at all,Russia has always been good on its billion euro gas deals with the EU,take the Nord Stream and the Yamal gas pipelines..The same would have been for South Stream

FatAndy
03-12-2014, 12:02
How many defenseless, unarmed civilians did the Red Army kill marching into Eastern/Central Europe? Hint: Many more than died from the a-bomb attacks.
How many defenseless, unarmed German kids, women and oldies brave American air forces bombed and burned in Dresden?
It was a war.

Armoured
03-12-2014, 12:13
Are you saying the Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi was bought off?

What, Italian politicians being bought off? Corruption in Italian politics? Who would ever imply such a thing?


You know, you might be right, the last Italian PM was friendly with the Kremlin,maybe the new one is too.

and the Austrian President Heinz Fischer was also bought off..

Armoured, you are more or less saying all the leaders of the countries where this pipeline was to be built were bought off by the Kremlin.
How I wonder, envelopes stuffed with cash, or black bin bags handed over down some dark ally..

I apologise, I was imprecise in what I said. I primarily meant by 'bought off' not cash in envelopes or personal gain (although I would not rule that out - look at the FIFA stories and/or Yanukovich).

But I think it's been a very deliberate strategy of the Russian government to provide 'economic benefits' to individual countries to get what it wants in larger scheme. Yes, $400 million (or is it Euros?) is significant to Bulgaria. To EU as a whole, it is not a large amount, and (from EU perspective) vastly outweighed by costs to EU as a whole.

As I discussed in other post, Russia is trying very hard to protect its perceived benefits of being a monopoly provider. By 'buying off' smaller and weaker players - esp those with domestic constituencies that are anti-EU or pro-Russia (insert names here as you wish) - it puts EU in a difficult position.

Bulgaria can claim 'losses', but EU rules make compensating Bulgaria explicitly for this very difficult. EU argument would be benefits need to be looked at against all benefits of membership.

So yes, it's a political and economic game. Saying 'oh those poor Bulgarians deprived of their promised cheap gas' is just ignoring that it was a deliberate (and not unskilled) policy by Russia to split the EU on this issue. Cheap at e.g. $400 million to protect Gazprom monopoly exports.

EU stuck to its guns and Russia had to move to a different strategy - giving discounted gas to a much larger country.

Who 'won'? I don't know. It's not over yet. But Russia wanted this badly, invested a lot of money (Gazprom supposedly spent $5 billion or so already), and didn't get what it wanted. Hard to see this as a win.

But it's like chess - it's not over because putting the other player in check once didn't work.

Final thought: the geopolitical element and trust environment is far, far worse for Russia right now. Splitting the EU might have been easier before - clearly much harder.

Armoured
03-12-2014, 12:19
No, there would never be corruption involved in this.

From the FT today:
"In addition to its concerns about competition, the commission was also worried that South Stream could fuel corruption and launched an investigation into the legitimacy of the tender process in Bulgaria, where the pipeline was supposed to make landfall.

Ognian Shentov, head of the Centre for the Study of Democracy, a Sofia think-tank, said the cost of the Bulgarian stretch had been inflated from €1.2bn to more than €4bn for the benefit of local construction companies."

fenrir
03-12-2014, 12:39
How many defenseless, unarmed German kids, women and oldies brave American air forces bombed and burned in Dresden?
It was a war.

The death toll of the Dresden bombing was grossly overstated and has been revised downward dramatically by the GERMANS themselves.

fenrir
03-12-2014, 12:40
It was a war.

So was the fight against Japan.

Uncle Wally
03-12-2014, 12:42
No, there would never be corruption involved in this.

From the FT today:
"In addition to its concerns about competition, the commission was also worried that South Stream could fuel corruption and launched an investigation into the legitimacy of the tender process in Bulgaria, where the pipeline was supposed to make landfall.

Ognian Shentov, head of the Centre for the Study of Democracy, a Sofia think-tank, said the cost of the Bulgarian stretch had been inflated from €1.2bn to more than €4bn for the benefit of local construction companies."



There is corruption everywhere even in reporting.

FatAndy
03-12-2014, 12:58
So was the fight against Japan.
The question is about "proportionality" of the power, used not against armed forces.


The death toll of the Dresden bombing was grossly overstated and has been revised downward dramatically by the GERMANS themselves.
When? :)

Armoured
03-12-2014, 13:08
There is corruption everywhere even in reporting.

What a remarkably stupid response.

The allegations of issues in the tender process are entirely relevant, and quote a source.

If you'd care to explain what relevance your comment has, great, otherwise we'll just put it in the 'Wally box.'

Uncle Wally
03-12-2014, 13:26
What a remarkably stupid response.

The allegations of issues in the tender process are entirely relevant, and quote a source.

If you'd care to explain what relevance your comment has, great, otherwise we'll just put it in the 'Wally box.'

You can put it anywhere you want. I really don't care.

fenrir
03-12-2014, 13:56
The question is about "proportionality" of the power, used not against armed forces.


When? :)

Exactly. The same goes for the civilians of Central and Eastern Europe as the Red Army moved in.

Armoured
03-12-2014, 13:58
You can put it anywhere you want. I really don't care.

Then why write anything at all? Just a strategy to make <...>, irrelevant comments?

Armoured, please, chill down and be polite. Thanks, FA.

Benedikt
03-12-2014, 14:10
How many defenseless, unarmed German kids, women and oldies brave American air forces bombed and burned in Dresden?
It was a war.



“Dresden, the seventh largest city in Germany and not much smaller than Manchester, is also far the largest unbombed built-up the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westwards and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium. The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front, to prevent the use of the city in the way of further advance, and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do.”

RAF January 1945

Bomber Harris just was on an ego trip and was even made a war hero for that.. well, so be it. it is the victors who write the history books. about the truth, no one is really interested in that.

how many deaths? between 35 ooo and 130 000. but because there were so many refugees in town at the time, no one will ever know the real number.

Uncle Wally
03-12-2014, 15:10
Then why write anything at all? Just a strategy to make idiotic, irrelevant comments?


You make <...> comments all the time. You think only you and your <...> comments count? I say you don't understand what is really going on in the world but you will soon find out.

Uncle Wally, please, chill down and be polite. Thanks, FA.

TolkoRaz
03-12-2014, 15:35
The death toll of the Dresden bombing was grossly overstated and has been revised downward dramatically by the GERMANS themselves.

Gamburg fire-bombings?

Judge
03-12-2014, 23:19
What, Italian politicians being bought off? Corruption in Italian politics? Who would ever imply such a thing?



I apologise, I was imprecise in what I said. I primarily meant by 'bought off' not cash in envelopes or personal gain (although I would not rule that out - look at the FIFA stories and/or Yanukovich).

But I think it's been a very deliberate strategy of the Russian government to provide 'economic benefits' to individual countries to get what it wants in larger scheme. Yes, $400 million (or is it Euros?) is significant to Bulgaria. To EU as a whole, it is not a large amount, and (from EU perspective) vastly outweighed by costs to EU as a whole.

As I discussed in other post, Russia is trying very hard to protect its perceived benefits of being a monopoly provider. By 'buying off' smaller and weaker players - esp those with domestic constituencies that are anti-EU or pro-Russia (insert names here as you wish) - it puts EU in a difficult position.

Bulgaria can claim 'losses', but EU rules make compensating Bulgaria explicitly for this very difficult. EU argument would be benefits need to be looked at against all benefits of membership.

So yes, it's a political and economic game. Saying 'oh those poor Bulgarians deprived of their promised cheap gas' is just ignoring that it was a deliberate (and not unskilled) policy by Russia to split the EU on this issue. Cheap at e.g. $400 million to protect Gazprom monopoly exports.

EU stuck to its guns and Russia had to move to a different strategy - giving discounted gas to a much larger country.

Who 'won'? I don't know. It's not over yet. But Russia wanted this badly, invested a lot of money (Gazprom supposedly spent $5 billion or so already), and didn't get what it wanted. Hard to see this as a win.

But it's like chess - it's not over because putting the other player in check once didn't work.

Final thought: the geopolitical element and trust environment is far, far worse for Russia right now. Splitting the EU might have been easier before - clearly much harder.

I don't wanna get side tracked about FIFA , an organisation that's corrupt to its core....
You implied that people pushing this South Stream were 'bought off'
The whole EU is one massive corrupted organisation,and I wouldn't be suprised if some leaders were on the take...I'm glad that you also realise how corrupt some EU leaders can be.

It's the reasoning behind the objection of the South Stream project by people who were not to gain from this deal.And really the sheer stupidity of their actions cos Russia,Gazprom were more or less funding the whole project,even offering attractive loans,creating 1000's of jobs for austerity hit countries,some of the poorest European countries were going to benefit in a big way.

People are now saying that the whole South Stream was too costly for Gazprom and it's a blessing really that the EU isn't interested, and Putin is using this as an excuse to back out of the deal,again, a good move for him and Gazprom if that is the case.

You know how it is out in dachaland,some places are without gas,and to get gas supplied it costs 500000ru just to get connected and it's a real pain to even get started..
Let's say I come along and offer to connect you all to a gas line,supply, all your settlement with pipes and fittings free of charge to all houses, and you'll also get cheap gas,even below market value ,and since I'm true to my word I'll also pay you a yearly fee cos your place is where the main pipe leads into the settlement...
I'm sure you will do the right thing and see that it's the logical thing to do.

Now some strangers in the next village come along and order you not to deal with me cos they say it's only fair that you have more of a choice when buying gas,even if the other gas is much more expensive and not a better deal,which would you choose?

Anyways,I agree, it's like a game of chess,and there are many more moves to go, I believe that Russia just did a good move....Let's not forget that the Russian economy is also not in a good state,and big companies like Gazprom should slow down with massive investment that aren't really going to pay off,Gazprom better get started on their pipeline with China, now that's one client Russia can't lose..

Russian Lad
04-12-2014, 00:00
I believe that Russia just did a good move.

It is a deliberate lie. Why you "patriots" are lying all the time? It has become your lifestyle, Jesus Christ bananas. Russia did a good move, right. As if the EU didn't block this construction. Russia simply had no other options left. And again, Turkey will squeeze Russia dry on this project, including the right to own this gas on its territory and to re-sell it, not just used as a transit country like Ukraine. A good move, my arse. It will be funny if, by the time this pipe is built and ready to supply gas to Europe (Turkey needs like 15-20% of this pipe capacity, as I understand), the Europeans will just prefer to buy LNG from the US or from other sources.

Judge
04-12-2014, 00:18
Jesus Christ bananas
First of all,less of the blasphemy,you often mention Rus, you don't wanna piss him off now...:AngelPray:



It is a deliberate lie. Why you "patriots" are lying all the time? It has become your lifestyle, Jesus Christ bananas. Russia did a good move, right. As if the EU didn't block this construction. Russia simply had no other options left. And again, Turkey will squeeze Russia dry on this project, including the right to own this gas on its territory and to re-sell it, not just used as a transit country like Ukraine. A good move, my arse.

Russia could have followed the new EU rules about the pipeline,you know, allowing third partyies access ,but why should they when they were funding most of it,it was a costly project for Gazprom, which right now they could do without,again, a good move...
Turkey and Russia have been doing gas deals since the 80's ,they are Russia 2nd biggest gas partner in Europe,and will send 30 bcm of gas in 2014,Russia already said will lower prices by 6%, this is what you get when you're a good trading partner...
Now Turkey will be able to sell on some of the Russia gas to the counrties that missed out on the South Stream deal....;)


the Europeans will just prefer to buy LNG from the US or from other sources.

and this now makes you happy, America will enter the market....let EU countries buy the more expensive LNG.
btw, there's a reason why Russia is offering favourable gas deals to some countries...

Russian Lad
04-12-2014, 00:44
Rusmeister? Let's give the floor to him and hear what he says. He has been silent lately.


Russia could have followed the new EU rules about the pipeline,you know, allowing third partyies access ,but why should they when they were funding most of it,it was a costly project for Gazprom, which right now they could do without,again, a good move...

The EU blocked the deal before our dear leader announced anything about Turkey. But you are welcome to twist it whichever way suits your imagination the most. How does it feel, to be a violin player on the sinking Titanic? Hope you are paid for this, at least.

Uncle Wally
04-12-2014, 01:21
Rusmeister? Let's give the floor to him and hear what he says. He has been silent lately.



The EU blocked the deal before our dear leader announced anything about Turkey. But you are welcome to twist it whichever way suits your imagination the most. How does it feel, to be a violin player on the sinking Titanic? Hope you are paid for this, at least.


How much you want to bet that there will be protest in Turkey next year that America will have help the poor people of Turkey to save them from their evil rulers.

Uncle Wally
04-12-2014, 01:22
Or ISIS will attack Turkey.

Russian Lad
04-12-2014, 01:24
I don't give two farts in a martini about Turkey and what they do to themselves. Do you?

Uncle Wally
04-12-2014, 01:28
I don't give two farts in a martini about Turkey and what they do to themselves. Do you?



Very un-American of you.


As long as they run a Russian gas pipeline into the EU, no.

Russian Lad
04-12-2014, 01:34
Very un-American of you.

Well, I am not an American.

Uncle Wally
04-12-2014, 01:42
Well, I am not an American.



You're a "wanta be"

Judge
04-12-2014, 01:43
Well done to Austria....at least they tried...

“This is a thing neither Austria, nor Italy did. Indeed, if you remember, the Austrian president told the US senators ‘Excuse me, gentlemen, but I don’t tell you how and with who you should make deals in the USA, so please don’t you tell me with whom and how Austria will develop its economic relations’,” he said.

also from the article..
just a friendly visit to voice their concern..:rolleyes:


He believes Bulgaria ultimately lost its ability to make independent decisions after the “humiliating” arrival of US senators to the country in June. Bulgarian Prime Minister Plamen Oresharski then declared he was suspending the South Stream project.
http://rt.com/business/211123-bulgaria-south-stream-failure/

Russian Lad
04-12-2014, 01:45
You're a "wanta be"

No, not really. I lived in the US and liked it, but I would not say it is my dream destination. I also had an American girlfriend, they are good in bed, too.
Judge, while you are so excited about Austria, have you read that the top shot of the Russian VTB bank threatened the US with war (yes, nothing less) if Russia is disconnected from SWIFT? It is all over the Russian news agencies now. Bet it is gonna hit the ruble right on the head today in the morning: http://lenta.ru/news/2014/12/04/swift/

Uncle Wally
04-12-2014, 01:48
No, not really. I lived in the US and liked it, but I would not say it is my dream destination. I also had an American girlfriend, they are good in bed, too.


You don't say. Tell us more!

Armoured
04-12-2014, 10:54
I don't wanna get side tracked about FIFA , an organisation that's corrupt to its core....
You implied that people pushing this South Stream were 'bought off'
The whole EU is one massive corrupted organisation,and I wouldn't be suprised if some leaders were on the take...I'm glad that you also realise how corrupt some EU leaders can be.

I meant 'bought off' primarily as not corruption - while not excluding.

The relevance of FIFA is that Russia seems quite comfortable with arranging/supporting corruption where in its interests. I'm not taking a 'moral' position on this - but if this is a concern (and I would say it is especially for Bulgaria, Serbia and possibly Italy), then it changes the EU dynamic. Are influential people in those countries supporting it because it has real economic benefits, or because they're personally interested?


It's the reasoning behind the objection of the South Stream project by people who were not to gain from this deal.And really the sheer stupidity of their actions cos Russia,Gazprom were more or less funding the whole project,even offering attractive loans,creating 1000's of jobs for austerity hit countries,some of the poorest European countries were going to benefit in a big way.

That's to be expected for a monopolist - 'we'll pay for this but you have no choice, forever.' EU argument is, logically, you have to allow others to have access.


People are now saying that the whole South Stream was too costly for Gazprom and it's a blessing really that the EU isn't interested, and Putin is using this as an excuse to back out of the deal,again, a good move for him and Gazprom if that is the case.

There is a lot that Gazprom does that is arguably far too expensive from a corporate perspective - but that the govenrment wants really, really badly.


You know how it is out in dachaland,some places are without gas,and to get gas supplied it costs 500000ru just to get connected and it's a real pain to even get started..

I have personal experience with this. It costs 500k rubles (probably twice that now) and a LOT of time not because those are the physical costs, but for paperwork, stamps, permissions, bribes, monopoly pricing and 'intermediaries' to hide it all. The nearest dacha with gas connection is almost next door. In short it should cost a few thousand dollars (and more logically, they would have done this all at once).

The _problem_ is the monopoly. And you're proposing to fix it by having another monopoly or reinforcing the existing monopoly.

Judge
04-12-2014, 20:10
The relevance of FIFA is that Russia seems quite comfortable with arranging/supporting corruption where in its interests.
Russia bribing FIFA officials,is this more dark ally meetings .Sorry, but you have no idea how FIFA is run...before you do, I've already read about the so called Picasso painting


I'm not taking a 'moral' position on this - but if this is a concern (and I would say it is especially for Bulgaria, Serbia and possibly Italy), then it changes the EU dynamic. Are influential people in those countries supporting it because it has real economic benefits, or because they're personally interested?.
It's all about having a cheap energy source right on their own doorstep.




That's to be expected for a monopolist - 'we'll pay for this but you have no choice, forever.' EU argument is, logically, you have to allow others to have access.
That's hard to do when you're covering most of the cost,let other gas countries build their own pipelines....



I have personal experience with this. It costs 500k rubles (probably twice that now) and a LOT of time not because those are the physical costs, but for paperwork, stamps, permissions, bribes, monopoly pricing and 'intermediaries' to hide it all. The nearest dacha with gas connection is almost next door. In short it should cost a few thousand dollars (and more logically, they would have done this all at once).


500k +ru is a tidy sum just to get connected and for one heat source,another way and much better in the long run is having a Geo Thermal system,like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o7vVjth_TU
costs about 750k, but no bills later on,the electricty to run it is the same as running a fridge,so i have been told.
I did a quick calculation , Geo Thermal should pay itself off in about 10 years time...calculated on all year round dacha living..


The _problem_ is the monopoly. And you're proposing to fix it by having another monopoly or reinforcing the existing monopoly.
The Germans are OK with Nord stream being only a gazprom pipe.
Anyways, let the EU be anti-Russia, sorry, I mean anti-monopoly..Russia is looking east now,and already found new clients..

FatAndy
04-12-2014, 20:45
The problem is, that here in RF we have geo thermal possibilities only at Kamchatka, rather long ride for weekend dacha time if you work in Moscow or even Ural region ;)

Judge
04-12-2014, 21:01
The problem is, that here in RF we have geo thermal possibilities only at Kamchatka, rather long ride for weekend dacha time if you work in Moscow or even Ural region ;)

Closer would be Iceland.....

It doesn't really matter where you are, you could go deep down or up and down( 2metres )the land, like in the video..

Judge
04-12-2014, 21:08
The new boss man of the EU speaks..


EU's Juncker Slams Russia for South Stream Blackmail, Says Pipeline Could Be Built

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/eu-s-juncker-slams-russia-for-south-stream-blackmail-says-pipeline-could-be-built/512597.html

FatAndy
04-12-2014, 21:14
Closer would be Iceland.....

We don't have our troops there... yet...


It doesn't really matter where you are, you could go deep down or up and down( 2metres )the land, like in the video..
It does. 70% of RF territory is permafrost. :eh:

Judge
04-12-2014, 21:26
We don't have our troops there... yet...

It's a good job they don't need Russian gas..




It does. 70% of RF territory is permafrost. :eh:
OK, smartarse;)

FatAndy
04-12-2014, 21:32
The new boss man of the EU speaks..

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/eu-s-juncker-slams-russia-for-south-stream-blackmail-says-pipeline-could-be-built/512597.html
To speak isn't to handle sacks - old Russian proverb.

Tango... we tried to do it in single mode for several years.

Let Juncker dance Borisov now.

:emote_popcorn:

FatAndy
08-12-2014, 15:37
http://www.rbc.ru/rbcfreenews/54859330cbb20fe4f54e6a8a - Borisov is persistent southern guy, he wants South Stream (well, the gas and transit money from it) and... will go to Juncker himself... to dance him??? :jawdrop:

Judge
09-12-2014, 11:59
Let them go to Junker and ask for money, Junker will probably give them a sweet new tax deal...

http://www.businessinsider.com/luxembourgs-shady-tax-deals-and-junker-2014-11

Armoured
10-12-2014, 03:28
So all well and good.

Except that, well, there's no Turkish deal per se, the Turks aren't done bargaining on price, and that's not the only issue - the Turks seem to feel that Russia is restricting gas flow to Turkey.

Darn prejudiced Western media, quoting the Turkish energy minister.

http://www.platts.com/latest-news/natural-gas/istanbul/turkey-says-no-gas-deal-with-russia-gas-cuts-26949449

Russian Lad
10-12-2014, 03:34
Darn prejudiced Western media, quoting the Turkish energy minister.

http://www.platts.com/latest-news/na...-cuts-26949449

Yeah, like I said, even if there is an agreement, the Turks will squeeze Russia dry on this, just like the Chinese.
Vossy, have you eaten your humble pie yet? The "patriots" here wanna taste it too. Leave some crumbs for them please. Like, every conveivable hope has been snatched from them. No Mistrals, no South Stream, no gas line to Turkey, oil prices dropping, the ruble falling like a rock, even gourmet Western food has been taken away from them. Soon I will begin wishing they have at least one modest international or domestic victory, for a change. Otherwise it feels like whipping a dead horse. The West should allow them to win something, for a change. Maybe the Olympics? Ah, they already did that.:( Maybe a couple of Ukrainian villages? :emote_popcorn:

Armoured
10-12-2014, 03:42
http://www.rbc.ru/rbcfreenews/54859330cbb20fe4f54e6a8a - Borisov is persistent southern guy, he wants South Stream (well, the gas and transit money from it) and... will go to Juncker himself... to dance him??? :jawdrop:

Sounds like South Stream was not so advanced and maybe not so profitable. Oh, and Bulgaria expected it to follow European laws too.

According to that [-]devilish Western press[/-] Borisov's own speech to parliament:

The Bulgarian government has not changed its position regarding South Stream - we support the project’s implementation, but only if European rules are complied with.
...
Much has been said in recent days about what our country would lose if the South Stream gas pipeline is not realized or if its route is changed.

Experts informed that there is no long term gas transportation contract and that such has not been signed. At present, there is no complete financial model of the project. Both documents are directly related to clarifying the benefits for our country from building the gas pipeline on Bulgarian territory.
...
I will read the text given to me by experts, verbatim:

“The project presented by Gazprom Export does not meet the requirements of the European Union established by Directive 2009/73 / EC. The significant discrepancies relate to the requirements for third party access, tariff and operator of the pipeline. In this sense, the relevant clauses can be considered by BEH only if an exemption is made to Directive 2009/73 / EC. Furthermore, the draft contains significantly biased clauses, placing the project company (in its capacity as operator of the pipeline) in a significant disadvantage to the other party. ...

The long-term gas transportation contract also contains clauses, which are extremely unfavorable for BEH as a shareholder in the project company:"

• a tariff profile with an excessively low tariff during the first 15 years (the period when BEH needs incoming funds to pay the loan to Gazprom). ...

• provides for a zero profit after the 25th year of operation of the pipeline....

The draft long-term gas transportation agreement, proposed by OOO Gazprom Export, actually provides a structure, according to which the project company will generate profits only for the purpose of the investment and its payment period, after which the profit (and the dividend for BEH, respectively) will be zero”.

http://www.government.bg/cgi-bin/e-cms/vis/vis.pl?s=001&p=0234&n=624&g=

Doesn't sound that positive to me on the subject.

But I'm sure since the press here is telling us the opposite, that's probably it.

Judge
10-12-2014, 07:25
So all well and good.

Except that, well, there's no Turkish deal per se, the Turks aren't done bargaining on price, and that's not the only issue - the Turks seem to feel that Russia is restricting gas flow to Turkey.

Darn prejudiced Western media, quoting the Turkish energy minister.

http://www.platts.com/latest-news/natural-gas/istanbul/turkey-says-no-gas-deal-with-russia-gas-cuts-26949449


That article is over a week old, since then, Gazprom have set up a new company for the Turkey gas deal,and others have talked about the future deal,
http://sputniknews.com/business/20141209/1015673834.html
of course it's not a done deal and there's still lots to be worked on,all in good time...

Sure, Turkey will try and squeeze Russia on this deal,and why not, the Turks are spoilt for choice when it comes to gas pipes wanting to go through their country, they have Russia, Iran and now azerbaijan all wating to increase gas to Turkey...If the Russia-Turkey gas deal goes through then Turkey will end up with a sweet gas deal as good as the Germans have with Gazprom....

Armoured
10-12-2014, 08:41
That article is over a week old, since then, Gazprom have set up a new company for the Turkey gas deal,and others have talked about the future deal,
http://sputniknews.com/business/20141209/1015673834.html

Wow - quoting a guy in support of your rosy view whose opening line is basically a mediocre pitch from Diplomacy (the game) - "I swear - I'm not out to screw you, I'm out to screw the other guy!"


Sure, Turkey will try and squeeze Russia on this deal,and why not, the Turks are spoilt for choice when it comes to gas pipes wanting to go through their country, they have Russia, Iran and now azerbaijan all wating to increase gas to Turkey...If the Russia-Turkey gas deal goes through then Turkey will end up with a sweet gas deal as good as the Germans have with Gazprom....

All right, so we're agreed it's good for Turkey.

And we'll just assume the rest of Dr. Pangloss' teachings apply to Russia as well - the best of all possible worlds, changes in policy happen out of absolute necessity and are not evidence the policy (or its alternatives) were wrong, everything that happens is for the best, and simultaneously proof of excellent strategic thinking.

Russian Lad
10-12-2014, 08:52
Sputniknews - that's their new brainwashing channel, just as RT. Judge, you expect us to read THAT?:) And you seriously poke at THAT for news??? Hahaha, you have made my day, thank you. Read my previous post and thank you for putting such a cute cherry on this cake.:10806:

Armoured
10-12-2014, 09:01
Separately, I read yesterday a quote from a Chinese official (don't have the source now) that made it clear the Chinese price for gas is at minimum linked to the oil price.

Which is only good! It means Russia will benefit when the price of oil goes up! Then there will be more money to pay for the pipeline that Russia built!

Judge
10-12-2014, 09:11
Wow - quoting a guy in support of your rosy view whose opening line is basically a mediocre pitch from Diplomacy (the game) - "I swear - I'm not out to screw you, I'm out to screw the other guy!"

It's better than posting a week old news story, and it's not just some guy,like a paid expert to say whatever pleases the masses..
Gazprom officials will be visiting Turkey soon, still lots to discuss..




All right, so we're agreed it's good for Turkey.

for both sides, that's if there's a deal, early days..

Judge
10-12-2014, 09:14
Sputniknews - that's their new brainwashing channel, just as RT. Judge, you expect us to read THAT?:) And you seriously poke at THAT for news??? Hahaha, you have made my day, thank you. Read my previous post and thank you for putting such a cute cherry on this cake.:10806:

Here you are, some more news from Sputnik..:10518:

http://sputniknews.com/business/20141209/1015673276.html

Russian Lad
10-12-2014, 09:31
http://sputniknews.com/business/2014...015673276.html

Plans this, plans that, USSR was also keen on planning. They even had a ministry, Gosplan, I believe. Where are the results??? I see only miserable failures on all arenas, on the backdrop of the falling oil and ruble and the climbing prices for everything. :watching: Let me introduce you to the term "recession spiral". The suction pressure is increasing, Russia is dancing on the brink of a very powerful vortex. It is not prudent.

Armoured
10-12-2014, 09:49
It's better than posting a week old news story, and it's not just some guy,like a paid expert to say whatever pleases the masses..
Gazprom officials will be visiting Turkey soon, still lots to discuss..

Wait. The article I used quoted the Turkish _energy minister_.

Whereas your guy - granted, a senior politician - says - according to Sputnik - "Turkey will not go down the same road as the West in subverting Russia's gas pipeline project, and hopes to get the upper hand over Brussels instead, "

Speaks directly to my point: 'we're not going to do you, we're going to use you to do the other guy.'

Uh-huh.

FatAndy
10-12-2014, 10:06
Sounds like South Stream was not so advanced and maybe not so profitable.
Then it's very good that we've buried it, right?


Oh, and Bulgaria expected it to follow European laws too.
If we'll build the thread to Turkey and that gas hub on Turk/Greece border, Bulgaria, as free democratic country, may build their own thread there. Which will be operating in the full accordance with European laws. They will have gas on the market price from Greeks/Turks and have gas transit money if their neighbours will run transit via them. And it will be good and correct.


Doesn't sound that positive to me on the subject.

This means, they won't pay you rent or royalties? :)


But I'm sure since the press here is telling us the opposite, that's probably it.
Don't read or listen what people say. Watch what they do ;)

Colleagues have sent in one funny phrase a couple of days ago - "In 1877 Russians have released Bulgarians from Turks. As a thank, in 2014 Turks released Russians from Bulgarians."

What is still good, on my experience of 4 trips there, simple Bulgarians clearly divide people from politicians - "there are a lot of p....sts in ours and yours govt, though as everywhere". They meant, in the bad sense... :)

Judge
10-12-2014, 10:24
Plans this, plans that, USSR was also keen on planning. They even had a ministry, Gosplan, I believe. Where are the results??? I see only miserable failures on all arenas, on the backdrop of the falling oil and ruble and the climbing prices for everything. :watching: Let me introduce you to the term "recession spiral". The suction pressure is increasing, Russia is dancing on the brink of a very powerful vortex. It is not prudent.

If one market is shutting its door you gotta have a plan....Don't forget, Russia is also part of Asia, if you didn't know Russia is a rather large country,and in this part of the world they are more hungry for gas.....Russia will start shipping LNG to India, a billion people there,a billion in China,that's over 4 times as much as the EU..Also, these are friendly BRIC countries..

fenrir
10-12-2014, 10:33
If one market is shutting its door you gotta have a plan....Don't forget, Russia is also part of Asia, if you didn't know Russia is a rather large country,and in this part of the world they are more hungry for gas.....Russia will start shipping LNG to India, a billion people there,a billion in China,that's over 4 times as much as the EU..Also, these are friendly BRIC countries..

The problem for Russia is that all those Indians and even Chinese cannot pay the same price levels European countries do. Don't let big contract numbers take away from the fact that the profit levels of those sales will be lower.

Armoured
10-12-2014, 10:34
Then it's very good that we've buried it, right?

Probably yes. But raises the question of why it was being pushed so hard in the first place.


And it will be good and correct.

The best of all possible worlds, and all is for the best.


This means, they won't pay you rent or royalties? :)

Malheureusement, non. But I did mean here that the purported benefits to Bulgaria seem overstated. At least according to ... the Bulgarians.


What is still good, on my experience of 4 trips there, simple Bulgarians clearly divide people from politicians - "there are a lot of p....sts in ours and yours govt, though as everywhere". They meant, in the bad sense... :)

True of course. But were we discussing pipeline politics (and the politicians involved) or the appealing character of the average Bulgarian/Russian?

Judge
10-12-2014, 10:44
The problem for Russia is that all those Indians and even Chinese cannot pay the same price levels European countries do. Don't let big contract numbers take away from the fact that the profit levels of those sales will be lower.

That's true, but special prices for special friends(like the Germans, they get a good deal)...high prices can be found in Japan and Singapore,that's where America would like to ship their gas ,higher prices there compared to Europe...Russia is also pushing down the price which will help others look for better deals from the middle east and America...

Yaks
10-12-2014, 11:26
Japan and Singapore are largely serviced from Australia.

Japan is hardly impressed with gas exploits from islands it previously owned..

Russian Lad
10-12-2014, 16:45
If one market is shutting its door you gotta have a plan...

The market is open anytime. If you come to the store with a gun and begin shooting, the owner may close the shop for you. But he will be happy to see you again after you do your time in prison, come back later and apologize for your behavior. :mml::watching:

Judge
10-12-2014, 19:17
and here's the most recent news.. It's Armoured's guy talking again..




According to the Turkish energy minister, Gazprom expects to spend almost $20 billion on laying the gas pipeline at the bottom of the Black Sea.
Turkey will not go down the same road as the West in subverting Russia's gas pipeline project, and hopes to get the upper hand over Brussels instead, the deputy chairman of Turkey's ruling party told the Sputnik news agency Tuesday.
© SPUTNIK/ SERGEI GUNEEV
Turkey Committed to Gas Transit Cooperation With Russia: Turkish Lawmaker
ANKARA, December 10 (Sputnik) – Turkey will not take part in building the underwater section of a pipeline to deliver gas from Russia but will bear the costs of laying the land section, Turkish Energy Minister Taner Yildiz said Wednesday.
“We have no idea of costs of the offshore section of the pipeline, because we do not take part in the construction of the subsea section,” he said.

According to the minister, Gazprom expects to spend about 16 billion euro (almost $20 billion) on laying the pipeline at the bottom of the Black Sea.

“We will calculate our costs of building the section that would pass through Thrace,” he said. “We are now in talks on a joint venture for this project.”

http://sputniknews.com/business/20141210/1015707353.html

Yaks
11-12-2014, 10:17
Turkey is hardly a sure thing:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-09/putin-plan-to-ship-gas-to-europe-via-turkey-seen-as-unrealistic.html

And I think growth targets out of Turkey are on the optimistic side. The economy there has been tanking of late-with the crackdown on dissidents causing capital flight and the stock market and lira to plunge. Russia and Turkey are very similar in ideology. Autocratic rule-Erdogan just switching from Prime Minister to President(sound familar?) except he took the powers of the prime minister with him. Both have a oligarghy set up with a narrow group of people controlling wealth/winning all the contracts.

But Istanbul is a real driver of the economy-as long as tourism is maintained which,if i recall was 30% of GDP(in any case a lot) and the islamification of the country and moves away from a secular state are hampering this(Erdogan is talking about turning Haiga Sofia from a museum back to a mosque which will only enrage Moscow, Greece and the Balkans-since it was originally the seat of the Orthodox church.)

Turkey has options too-it has gas and oil from Azerbajian and Iran(as mentioned in the article) as well as apparent oil from Kurdistan and widely believed ISIS too. Still more info needs to come through on the latter but ISIS is selling 3 million dollars worth of oil a day and it has to be going somewhere and Turkey is the likely suspect.

Armoured
15-12-2014, 12:35
A good analysis asking the question of how hard it would be for Europe to give up/reduce dependence on Russian gas. This guy's answer? Not so much money, a few years.

As long as Europe gets its act together. Which it seems to be getting better at doing, in large part because of the conflict with Russia over Ukraine/Crimea, etc.

http://daily.rbc.ru/opinions/economics/15/12/2014/548b02622ae5961787454bbc#xtor=AL-[internal_traffic]--[rbc.ru]-[details_main]-[item_4]

Russian Lad
15-12-2014, 18:38
As long as Europe gets its act together.

Yes, they need to do it, as fast as they can.