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madinic
13-02-2008, 00:57
Hello everyone,

We have been offered a posting to Moscow in the summer 2008. I was excited up until I was told by a former Moscovite ( Russian who moved to Toronto in 2005) that my mixed kids ( Asian/black/french) will suffer a great deal from racism that is widely spread in Moscow/Russia. She's got two kids from a bi-racial relationship who grew up in Moscow.

I would appreciate everyone's view in that regard.

Thank you,

Madina

kebab
13-02-2008, 11:18
Unfortunately there is a lot of racism in Russia, but when it comes to kids and schools I think you'll find it is everywhere. My nephew has olive skin (his mother is Fijian) and he got called names by some of the kids at school, and that was in the UK.

Don't let it put you off as it depends which schools you pick for your kids and where you live, your neighbours, lifestyle like any country.

One expat I knew had two boys of Asian appearance and they loved it here and had no problems.

Josh V
13-02-2008, 14:10
Hi Madina,

We've lived here for three years, are also a mixed race family (I am white - my wife is from Indian-South-African descent) with two kids. The kids have not noticed that much over the years, but my wife has. It usually shows in the assumption of Russians serving you in restaurants or shops - their 'disdain' and 'distance' and slow service is the result; at the airline checkin counter usually it's the colored people that are singled out for treatment by the book.

We have experienced virtually no active aggression-threats; my wife had one scare where she was threatened by some hooligan teenagers on the metro - and those teenagers were told off by an old agressive babushka - but for the rest you are welcome to call us for our experiences. Check your PM for our telephone.

Best regards,

Josh

SalTheReturn
13-02-2008, 14:27
Hi Madina,

We've lived here for three years, are also a mixed race family (I am white - my wife is from Indian-South-African descent) with two kids. The kids have not noticed that much over the years, but my wife has. It usually shows in the assumption of Russians serving you in restaurants or shops - their 'disdain' and 'distance' and slow service is the result; at the airline checkin counter usually it's the colored people that are singled out for treatment by the book.

We have experienced virtually no active aggression-threats; my wife had one scare where she was threatened by some hooligan teenagers on the metro - and those teenagers were told off by an old agressive babushka - but for the rest you are welcome to call us for our experiences. Check your PM for our telephone.

Best regards,

Josh

Josh I am white but gets slow service and angry/full of it looks from shop assistants too!!! Guess it has more to do with the russian soul rather than being coloured...

anyway lets not forget that ex-pats on high packages and their kids are unlikely to experience any sort of racism

they can live separately from russian society, never ride metro and all the like

their kids will be driven to school so no matter

Josh V
13-02-2008, 23:15
Sal

I can totally understand where you come from. But, figure this: we go to a classy Italian restaurant - Cafe Akademia on Malaya Bronnaya, quite nice across from the elite other restaurant - with friends (a white couple), and we get great service, great table. I follow up and go with a colleague - both are white - wonderful. I go with my son - he's very clearly mixed - we get shown a lousy table, lousy service. I figure, possibly a blooper - go again with a customer: wonderful. Next week, i take wife and my two kids. We get put at the worst table in the house, and have lousy service.

Now, I tell this - and many other such instances - to white friends and colleagues, and time and time again there is the same unbelief. But, we have seen it so many times in other places. My wife goes in first, she almost walks out in disgust. I come in, pull my weight and act just a bit nasty to the staff, and things improve. But, not enough to not leave an aftertaste.

Still, there are many restaurants where you don't get this. But, many of the better restaurants tend to act this way. My wife is quite a 'looker' (ok I'm biased) but she's taken sometimes for Spanish, Maroccan, and - worst for russians: gypsy. What do we do? We dress to the nines, even for normal occasions, and especially our kids have to dress very well.

Are we protected as foreigners? Yes, we are. We have a driver. He picks the kids up at school, most ofthe time. But, kids are kids -and ours are teenagers struggling for their freedom. That means, they do want to take the metro to show their independence. Not often, but still. So far no problem - and they know to avoid certain lines and not to take the metro at the time of soccer matches (the time for racist hooligans).

We do not feel especially vulnerable here in Russia. Similar situations are available in Belgium or Germany. But, complacency breeds danger here. We go to a church, where we know black people that got stabbed because of their color. yes they were students, yes they were travelling at odd times and at odd remote metro stations. the difference with Canada is huge. then again - we consider Canada the earth's paradise and example for tolerance. So any place you move from Canada will be a rude awakening.

Still, we love living here. The buzz and energy of Moscow, the extra lifestyle options, the depth of friendship here, extra travel abilities, and as an expat still to be able to save some money: it's a nice life. Our kids get used to it more quickly than we do.

ATO1980
14-02-2008, 01:06
Haven't you ever just asked to move to another table, especially when it was clear that other tables were available?




Sal

I can totally understand where you come from. But, figure this: we go to a classy Italian restaurant - Cafe Akademia on Malaya Bronnaya, quite nice across from the elite other restaurant - with friends (a white couple), and we get great service, great table. I follow up and go with a colleague - both are white - wonderful. I go with my son - he's very clearly mixed - we get shown a lousy table, lousy service. I figure, possibly a blooper - go again with a customer: wonderful. Next week, i take wife and my two kids. We get put at the worst table in the house, and have lousy service.

Now, I tell this - and many other such instances - to white friends and colleagues, and time and time again there is the same unbelief. But, we have seen it so many times in other places. My wife goes in first, she almost walks out in disgust. I come in, pull my weight and act just a bit nasty to the staff, and things improve. But, not enough to not leave an aftertaste.

Still, there are many restaurants where you don't get this. But, many of the better restaurants tend to act this way. My wife is quite a 'looker' (ok I'm biased) but she's taken sometimes for Spanish, Maroccan, and - worst for russians: gypsy. What do we do? We dress to the nines, even for normal occasions, and especially our kids have to dress very well.

Are we protected as foreigners? Yes, we are. We have a driver. He picks the kids up at school, most ofthe time. But, kids are kids -and ours are teenagers struggling for their freedom. That means, they do want to take the metro to show their independence. Not often, but still. So far no problem - and they know to avoid certain lines and not to take the metro at the time of soccer matches (the time for racist hooligans).

We do not feel especially vulnerable here in Russia. Similar situations are available in Belgium or Germany. But, complacency breeds danger here. We go to a church, where we know black people that got stabbed because of their color. yes they were students, yes they were travelling at odd times and at odd remote metro stations. the difference with Canada is huge. then again - we consider Canada the earth's paradise and example for tolerance. So any place you move from Canada will be a rude awakening.

Still, we love living here. The buzz and energy of Moscow, the extra lifestyle options, the depth of friendship here, extra travel abilities, and as an expat still to be able to save some money: it's a nice life. Our kids get used to it more quickly than we do.

SalTheReturn
14-02-2008, 01:08
Great post Josh, though do not fall into the trick: in Germany and Belgium is not as bad as in Russia. There are couple of posters here that will pretend to go away with a simple "racism is everywhere". We are both grown up men and we both know the issue of racism is alarming.

One things is really interested in your posts: how old are your kids? are they already teenagers? i would love so much about expats in Moscow whose kids are older than 3yo...how expat teenagers (13yo-18yo) fit in Moscow? That would be a great thing to know.

And one thing: should you experience poor treatment in a cafe and feel like thats happening coz part of your family is coloured (btw, my mum and sis are ethiopian) shout a bit at the waitress (even insult her/him if you feel like) and then go straight to the underpaid manager (who will soon understand your salary is 20times higher than his/her) and have the waiter/waitress fired or humiliated in public. Not enough? Write a letter of complaint and tell them you are having it posted on expat.ru plus the copycat site.

You win a free meal.

Now I hope you know I am a good guy but really I had to behave very rude in couple of occasions in Moscow and never regret having done that.

Take care

Sal

PS. there is a nice ethiopian-afro restaurant a 2 mins walk from KarsnyeVorota metro, check it out.

Hawk
14-02-2008, 08:58
I certainly do not beleive that rascism is any worse in russia than it is anywhere else in the world......

What usually happens in Russia is the isolated incidents get totally blown out of context/proportion.

To the original poster - Moscow is great, Russians are friendly good people... just use your head when out and about, just like anyboody else.

SalTheReturn
14-02-2008, 10:47
I certainly do not beleive that rascism is any worse in russia than it is anywhere else in the world......

What usually happens in Russia is the isolated incidents get totally blown out of context/proportion.

To the original poster - Moscow is great, Russians are friendly good people... just use your head when out and about, just like anyboody else.

the thing is that clever people do not care of what you think but base their opinions exclusively on facts

and factually Russia registers more racist attacks than other countries and currently has the highest number of nazi-peasants

live with that, and pls stop posting misleading nonsenses

Josh V
14-02-2008, 10:55
Sal,

My kids are 16 and 18... which ethiopian restaurant at Krasnye Vorota? We only had Ethiopian once (in Toronto) and loved it.

About making a scene in a restaurant: been there, done that: problem is, my wife then wants to leave....the aggressive antics sort of ruin a nice family dinner.

About the last post by ?.sorry forgot the name..: duh.... you can believe that, but hey, racism is worse here in Moscow: believe me, we know - we've lived in many countries and our family does have some extra color to elicit the response. The prejudice and derogatory terms for anyone from the south, to what they say about tatars, chukchi, chochli, buryati, chadchiki, .... what defies the imagination is that this disdain is widespread among all classes, men and women alike. Moscow is actually worse than some other parts of Russia, both on the 'unfriendly' scale and on the racism scale.

SalTheReturn
14-02-2008, 12:32
the ethiopian restaurant is in KrasnyeVorota, very close to the 35mm cinema

it is really just a 2 mins walk down the main road when you exit the metro

the place is called Country Bar/Restaurant, you have to enter there and ask the staff about the ethiopian place which is from the same owner and just few steps away (unfortunately dont remember the name)

nice food but remember its still moscow:-)

kebab
14-02-2008, 18:08
I have been a few times with friends who are of from the Caucasus or of other nationalities to Akademiya and never had bad service at all. Sometimes difficult to get a table, but no one has ever queue jumped. I am really suprised by what you've said.

britpat1
14-02-2008, 19:42
I know this society is racist. I can sit here and type no more racist than any other and as expats you will have the money which equals access to facilities that enable you to avoid certain situations but I cannot help myself but to say.

Never have I come across a place that is more 'congratulatory' racsist, Martin .L.King would be turning in his grave! I have a dream my foot! People here admit to the fact that a racist poster at a metro station is normal and part of daily politics on this forum and country! Where is that normal at home I ask you?

May I also add... When a bunch of us were out and visiting a tourist site, a lady with darker skin was treated rather differently at the kassa than the other ladies. She was from the USA and obviously spoke English the woman at the kassa refused to serve her therefore, all of a sudden someone from the UK stepped in and saved her.

You will be treated differently, at a restuarant, a museum, at a bar, people will look at you like you are a freak show and you will feel like a criminal shoplifting in a grocery store as you will alert high security every time you go!

My mate had her house fire bombed by them because she was helping African children charities, she fled back to England after going into hiding for 24 hours for fear of her life.

She was an elderly lady from the UK, worked here 10 years teaching English to the Russian teenagers in the sticks for next to nothing because she wanted to help them get access to English.

I do not mean to insult the Russian people whom I do find mostly intelligent, artistic and nice people, but this is my truth.

Hold your head up high and be proud of who you are, you pay your taxes!

ezik
14-02-2008, 20:32
I'll be VERY interested to know which restaurants display a racist attitude.

Please PM any places.

Wodin
14-02-2008, 23:48
I'll be VERY interested to know which restaurants display a racist attitude.

Please PM any places.

I advise people not to follow up Ezik's request. Can't do, even by pm. It's tantamount to comemercial libel. Ezik, just take my word for it that there's several racist restaurants and shops in Central St Petes, and I don't mean places like McDonanalds or your local dime store. Now you might wonder what a white bloke like me would know about it.....well...I have personally witnessed such instances and on a number of occasions have had the immense pleasure of telling off the shop assistant or waitress. Leaves them gobsmacked every time.

phoenixsampras
15-02-2008, 08:46
Hello everyone,

We have been offered a posting to Moscow in the summer 2008. I was excited up until I was told by a former Moscovite ( Russian who moved to Toronto in 2005) that my mixed kids ( Asian/black/french) will suffer a great deal from racism that is widely spread in Moscow/Russia. She's got two kids from a bi-racial relationship who grew up in Moscow.

I would appreciate everyone's view in that regard.

Thank you,

Madina

Racism in Russia?? Please! This is the Year 2008!! Russia is so Powerful now, part of the european union, with a growing population and healthy economy..... Ops!! sorry might be a dream...

what time is it??? Time to go Work ... Dammit!!

ATO1980
17-02-2008, 16:27
Commercial libel? That is laughable. We live in Russia, not the US. Nothing will happen here. People complain here if they don't like the service or restaurant, and usually the do it in a little "complaint book". Have you ever seen anything like that in the US, or perhaps in the UK?

I certainly haven't. I say list the restaurants.




I advise people not to follow up Ezik's request. Can't do, even by pm. It's tantamount to comemercial libel. Ezik, just take my word for it that there's several racist restaurants and shops in Central St Petes, and I don't mean places like McDonanalds or your local dime store. Now you might wonder what a white bloke like me would know about it.....well...I have personally witnessed such instances and on a number of occasions have had the immense pleasure of telling off the shop assistant or waitress. Leaves them gobsmacked every time.

ATO1980
17-02-2008, 16:32
This may be to obvious to mention, but has anyone ever thought that racism as a concept in Russian culture simply does not exist ?

Racism exists in English-speaking cultures since it has often been a problem, and finally an issue raised and half-heartedly solved in some places.

In Russia, do you really think they understand you when you talk about racism?

I say if you ever have a problem because of the color of your skin or where you are from, never mention racism here since it might give you a blank stare from a local Russian. Just say that they deeply offended or hurt you. They usually tend to understand that way more...

You can't pull the race card in Russia, since it doesn't exist in the minds of most Russians.

SalTheReturn
17-02-2008, 16:35
Commercial libel? That is laughable. We live in Russia, not the US. Nothing will happen here. People complain here if they don't like the service or restaurant, and usually the do it in a little "complaint book". Have you ever seen anything like that in the US, or perhaps in the UK?

I certainly haven't. I say list the restaurants.

but actually in the UK they take customer complaints very seriously, much better than the book you are talking about

ATO1980
17-02-2008, 16:40
But you're comparing apples and beets. Customer service is a young concept here.


but actually in the UK they take customer complaints very seriously, much better than the book you are talking about

phoenixsampras
18-02-2008, 20:37
I'll be VERY interested to know which restaurants display a racist attitude.

Please PM any places.


Sunday night i had the pleasure to get drunk in a infamous restaurant which of course i dont remember the name, near the Zoo in the center of moscow, the attention was excellent, and the Chef made a good job cooking those Snails at the point i almost had a orgams eating them, but that might be the bootle of good cognac i drunk.

The Moscow Metro and the Russian Hospitality are different matters, i can say all Moscovites has imprinted a hate for USA by default, but they are generous at the moment of the table.

ezik
18-02-2008, 21:11
I think that Josh V's comments are very valuable: first hand experience of a mixed/coloured couple in a predominantly white place.

Most places in Moscow are welcoming to foreigners. However, if there are some places that seem extraordinarily unfriendly to people with a different race / nationality, I think they should be listed.

phoenixsampras
18-02-2008, 22:31
Sal

I can totally understand where you come from. But, figure this: we go to a classy Italian restaurant - Cafe Akademia on Malaya Bronnaya, quite nice across from the elite other restaurant - with friends (a white couple), and we get great service, great table. I follow up and go with a colleague - both are white - wonderful. I go with my son - he's very clearly mixed - we get shown a lousy table, lousy service. I figure, possibly a blooper - go again with a customer: wonderful. Next week, i take wife and my two kids. We get put at the worst table in the house, and have lousy service.

Now, I tell this - and many other such instances - to white friends and colleagues, and time and time again there is the same unbelief. But, we have seen it so many times in other places. My wife goes in first, she almost walks out in disgust. I come in, pull my weight and act just a bit nasty to the staff, and things improve. But, not enough to not leave an aftertaste.

Still, there are many restaurants where you don't get this. But, many of the better restaurants tend to act this way. My wife is quite a 'looker' (ok I'm biased) but she's taken sometimes for Spanish, Maroccan, and - worst for russians: gypsy. What do we do? We dress to the nines, even for normal occasions, and especially our kids have to dress very well.

Are we protected as foreigners? Yes, we are. We have a driver. He picks the kids up at school, most ofthe time. But, kids are kids -and ours are teenagers struggling for their freedom. That means, they do want to take the metro to show their independence. Not often, but still. So far no problem - and they know to avoid certain lines and not to take the metro at the time of soccer matches (the time for racist hooligans).

We do not feel especially vulnerable here in Russia. Similar situations are available in Belgium or Germany. But, complacency breeds danger here. We go to a church, where we know black people that got stabbed because of their color. yes they were students, yes they were travelling at odd times and at odd remote metro stations. the difference with Canada is huge. then again - we consider Canada the earth's paradise and example for tolerance. So any place you move from Canada will be a rude awakening.

Still, we love living here. The buzz and energy of Moscow, the extra lifestyle options, the depth of friendship here, extra travel abilities, and as an expat still to be able to save some money: it's a nice life. Our kids get used to it more quickly than we do.

You know thats was lame, i do assist to meetings with people of many colors and nationalities, and i go to restaurants and places where i PAY, i'm not asking any FAVOR, if i want the first table i get it and i PAY for it, of course i dislike to be treated as foreigner but we must understand this country is falling in pieces and they are in the process of learning they need some immigrants to raise their economy and population.

Thats how works here, and in Newyoriko, and quebec. Of course ill love to ear about friendly family restaurants.

riceandbeans
27-02-2008, 13:01
Hi Wodin. I am mixed up like your kids: latino, asian, black, european ancestry. I advise you to be very careful walking around the streets. There's been a increase in racial violence in this city, specifically gang killings of minorities in plain daylight. The government is doing nothing to stop it. There's an implicit acceptance/look the other way attitude. When you ask even the most educated Russian about this problem, typical responses you might get are as follows: oh nothing will happen to you ... you are beautiful people, well there are bad people everywhere, that's the problem with illegal immigration. The latter response is the worst, implying that because people are illegal they deserve to get killed like vermin. Nobody ever says, "That's terrible or how awful and disgraceful." Don't believe me? Google "racial violence in Russia" to prove it to your self.

bluemidnight
17-03-2008, 18:11
You can't pull the race card in Russia, since it doesn't exist in the minds of most Russians.

I don't agree. I live with my Russian boyfriend, which means I'm around a lot of his friends and family, and end up places that most Expats maybe wouldn't go. I've had lots of opportunities to notice how folks of all types are treated. There is definitly racisim here.

It seems like it's a different type from what I saw in the US though. People here are more likely to express disdain for people who are different, but I haven't noticed any hate behind it like there was at home. People behave with more tolerance downtown than they do in the outer districts of Moscow, and Moscow as a whole is better in this regard than the small towns. (granted, I've only been in 2 of the small towns).

Guest
17-03-2008, 18:37
Google "racial violence in Russia" to prove it to your self.

Ok, let's try:

racial violence in Russia returns 178.000 pages.

racial violence in England returns 221.000 pages.

racial violence in France (http://www.expat.ru/forum/racial%20violence%20in%20England) returns 229.000 pages.

racial violence in America returns 246.000 pages.


Thank you for having shown evidences that there is less in Russia than in England, France, and America.

SalTheReturn
17-03-2008, 19:29
Ok, let's try:

racial violence in Russia (http://www.google.ru/search?q=racial+violence+in+Russia&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) returns 178.000 pages.

racial violence in England (http://www.google.ru/search?q=racial+violence+in+England&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) returns 221.000 pages.

racial violence in France (http://www.expat.ru/forum/racial%20violence%20in%20England) returns 229.000 pages.

racial violence in America (http://www.google.ru/search?q=racial+violence+in+America&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) returns 246.000 pages.


Thank you for having shown evidences that there is less in Russia than in England, France, and America.

I'll try italy and get back to you:10455:

SalTheReturn
17-03-2008, 19:31
only 163.000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Guest
17-03-2008, 19:52
Forza Italia!

Wodin
17-03-2008, 20:11
I'll try italy and get back to you:10455:

Might that be because the Russian police tend to call racist incidents "holiganism"?

Fact: In England (also Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland), France and America, anybody feeling racially agreived by a restaurant (for instance, and to carry on with the previous examples) will have the owner of the place on a rack and the restaurant will be ostracised.

Fact: Over here the only remedy is to tell the daft serving girl that you want another table and then pass the word arond the expat community to boycot the place. Something expats here do quite often.

Is racism actually illegal here?

MissAnnElk
17-03-2008, 20:15
Might that be because the Russian police tend to call racist incidents "holiganism"?

And do we know if it is reported reliably? Americans might over-report . . . Russians might under-report?

Just a thought.

Wodin
17-03-2008, 20:24
ummmm...well...maybe the "victim" was over reacting a bit, but there again it might have been an excusable over-reaction, the victim having been black and having been attacked and killed by a gang of skins. And, I suppose, it was holigan behaviour by the skins in question....


NOT!

MissAnnElk
17-03-2008, 20:37
Well, that's what I was thinking, too . .

Lady Marmalade
17-03-2008, 21:43
Results 1 - 10 of about 504,000 for racist russia. (0.17 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 632,000 for racist usa. (0.22 seconds)

Don't look at the numbers, look at the contents of the first page of articles, that's what is really disturbing, look at what they are discussing. It's not the number of articles returned, but the nature of articles which should looked at closely. Just pointing out a different angle for your debating pleasure.


First Page Google Racist Russia Headlines and Articles.


BBC NEWS | Europe | Russian racism 'out of control'Racist killings in Russia are "out of control", says a report by human rights watchdog Amnesty International.
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BBC NEWS | Europe | Racism in Russia: Your viewsReports of racist attacks in Russia have become disturbingly regular in recent years. Read a debate between African and Russian users.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5173458.stm - 60k - Cached - Similar pages
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SalTheReturn
17-03-2008, 21:45
Might that be because the Russian police tend to call racist incidents "holiganism"?

Fact: In England (also Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland), France and America, anybody feeling racially agreived by a restaurant (for instance, and to carry on with the previous examples) will have the owner of the place on a rack and the restaurant will be ostracised.

Fact: Over here the only remedy is to tell the daft serving girl that you want another table and then pass the word arond the expat community to boycot the place. Something expats here do quite often.

Is racism actually illegal here?

why r u quoting me?

yes on paper they have really strict rules about racially motivated crimes, even harder than western countries (this is things i have f9und out by reading lots of russia-related material for my dissertation)

Guest
17-03-2008, 21:49
Lady (?) marmalade aka Farivota etc etc: Typical desinformative post, you should have been a high official in CCCP!

We can very easily find and post here some KKK video here about racists in America, or Liverpool hooligans saluting hitler, etc etc.

I had also very informative posts about racism in Africa, where you see dozens of blacks running after white people with nice big knives.

Etc etc.

But it would hurt your naive mentality!

SalTheReturn
17-03-2008, 21:55
anyway these discussions was faced many times leading to very unplesant debates

it is just sad to still see people thinking they can clean all the crap up by saying "it also happens abroad"

now i think it would takes nothing to spot in the discoursive strategy of man like Putin that he, in a way, he supported nationalism.

SalTheReturn
17-03-2008, 21:57
Lady (?) marmalade aka Farivota etc etc: Typical desinformative post, you should have been a high official in CCCP!

We can very easily find and post here some KKK video here about racists in America, or Liverpool hooligans saluting hitler, etc etc.

I had also very informative posts about racism in Africa, where you see dozens of blacks running after white people with nice big knives.

Etc etc.

But it would hurt your naive mentality!

I think the issue it is not the video Guest. Such videos can be found everywhere.

Do you agree that racism is often described as hooliganism in Russia?

Judge
17-03-2008, 22:17
Lady (?) marmalade aka Farivota etc etc: Typical desinformative post, you should have been a high official in CCCP!

We can very easily find and post here some KKK video here about racists in America, or Liverpool hooligans saluting hitler, etc etc.

I had also very informative posts about racism in Africa, where you see dozens of blacks running after white people with nice big knives.

Etc etc.

But it would hurt your naive mentality!

I'm pretty sure there is no such video of Liverpool hooligans saluting Hitler.

Lady Marmalade
17-03-2008, 22:36
Guest, I'm sure you can find KKK videos, but I suggest L.A. race riot videos instead as being more up to date in terms of relevance.

Informative or disinformative as you may find it, that wasn't the point of the post. The point was you threw out a bunch of numbers that seemed to support your claim that racism isn't a large problem in Russia and that it's a even larger problem in the US. At least I'm assuming by yours and Sals gleeful, "Oh look, google returned more hits on the US, less for Russia and less for Italy, therefore they're worse, yippee!" attitude. Sure racism is a problem in the States. It's a problem every in the world and racism doesn't have need of a specific gender, colour or nationality. [Or football team as the case may be:)]

I'm simply pointing out that the nature of the problem is worldwide and that anyone, yourself or myself can put out numbers and statistics to suit their arguement. Oh ooops, that would be my 'naive' self included. That actually genuinely made me smile. LOL!

Guest
17-03-2008, 22:44
anyway these discussions was faced many times leading to very unplesant debates

it is just sad to still see people thinking they can clean all the crap up by saying "it also happens abroad"

now i think it would takes nothing to spot in the discoursive strategy of man like Putin that he, in a way, he supported nationalism.


Nationalism does NOT mean racism!

Guest
17-03-2008, 22:45
I think the issue it is not the video Guest. Such videos can be found everywhere.

Do you agree that racism is often described as hooliganism in Russia?


Hooliganism means what you want it means. In Russia moreover this word is very different than anywhere in the world. If you stole a man in the street, it is hooliganism, here.

So we can play and play on words if you want!

Guest
17-03-2008, 22:46
I'm pretty sure there is no such video of Liverpool hooligans saluting Hitler.

Ok, will find one! Oh, Liverpool or Manchester, or any other city, ok?

SalTheReturn
17-03-2008, 22:50
Guest, I'm sure you can find KKK videos, but I suggest L.A. race riot videos instead as being more up to date in terms of relevance.

Informative or disinformative as you may find it, that wasn't the point of the post. The point was you threw out a bunch of numbers that seemed to support your claim that racism isn't a large problem in Russia and that it's a even larger problem in the US. At least I'm assuming by yours and Sals gleeful, "Oh look, google returned more hits on the US, less for Russia and less for Italy, therefore they're worse, yippee!" attitude. Sure racism is a problem in the States. It's a problem every in the world and racism doesn't have need of a specific gender, colour or nationality. [Or football team as the case may be:)]

I'm simply pointing out that the nature of the problem is worldwide and that anyone, yourself or myself can put out numbers and statistics to suit their arguement. Oh ooops, that would be my 'naive' self included. That actually genuinely made me smile. LOL!

what "gleeful" attitude?

in all honestly LadyM I have never thought that the issue of racism in russia is not high, ways higher than all other countries

also i do not support at all Guest's views on the issue

Guest
17-03-2008, 22:50
The point was you threw out a bunch of numbers that seemed to support your claim that racism isn't a large problem in Russia and that it's a even larger problem in the US.


Where did you read that I wrote/said that racism isn't a large problem in Russia? I just told that giving google links and saying "that is an evidence", as said the author of the post, is just a nonsense.


And yes, naive, or maybe "of bad faith" ? :) Because racism against whites is as developed if not MORE developed than racism against blacks. Of course in not in Moscow, but travel in Africa and you will see. I lived there some years ago, and even with my CCCP passport in countries where we strongly supported them, believe me I fell the racism against me!

So YES there is racism in Russia,
As everywhere, nothing more nothing less.

And know what? The world isn't perfect! Incredible, hey?

SalTheReturn
17-03-2008, 22:54
Nationalism does NOT mean racism!

if nationalism is enforced the way it has been enforced in russia, you have high chances to run into racism

nationalism, this is world history, often become racism

Guest
17-03-2008, 22:58
if nationalism is enforced the way it has been enforced in russia, you have high chances to run into racism

nationalism, this is world history, often become racism


Mussolini was racist? Not sure, but never read anything about him as a racist.

Now, WHAT IS RACISM? I know that in Europe, it is illegal to say "the man who stole the car was from Africa", because if you say so, you are a racist! Is THAT racism??? I think it is in France or Germany there is even a LAW to forbid to say such a thing!!!

SalTheReturn
17-03-2008, 23:05
Mussolini was racist? Not sure, but never read anything about him as a racist.

Now, WHAT IS RACISM? I know that in Europe, it is illegal to say "the man who stole the car was from Africa", because if you say so, you are a racist! Is THAT racism??? I think it is in France or Germany there is even a LAW to forbid to say such a thing!!!

I am off Guest, have fun!!!

Judge
17-03-2008, 23:08
Ok, will find one! Oh, Liverpool or Manchester, or any other city, ok?

For sure you will find, but not Liverpool fans.

Here's a link to a well known club which we all know.

Chelsea Headhunters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Question_book-new.svg" class="image"><img alt="Question book-new.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png

Guest
17-03-2008, 23:18
I am off Guest, have fun!!!


Why? Did my question hurt you?

Because sorry, but before speaking "where is racism and where are racists", it would be maybe interesting to say WHAT is racism!

Korotky Gennady
17-03-2008, 23:44
Thre is not too much racism in Russia but there is a lot of "hooliganism". It's getteing dangerous to walk in the street after 11 p. m. already.

:11157:

Tais
17-03-2008, 23:55
the item might be very offensive...
and we won't come to one opinion here and in any other place or dispute...
BUT, while i was reading this i became thinking that it's great PARANOIA..
people can be rude without any explanation to everybode: black or white, everybode could receive impolite answer or observation.
BUT it doesn't mean that that had happened because of the color of your skin..
I think that the main problem of black-skined people from Europe or USA (especially) is that they are waiting to find the racism here. They are trying to put on there fears at our russian reality.
BUT that's a wrong way, because our own reality is in our minds... only there.
What we have is a nationalism. And we are very anxious about the Caucasians, Tajiks, Uzbeks and other emigrants from the former Soviet Union.
Yes, that's our problem. But we don't have separate shops, cafes and public conveyances... That's good, how do you think?
We don't care about black here. And i'm pretty nervous when i can't name them Negros only because in USA it causes problems. We live in Russia, and "Negro" - doesn't meen something offensive and rude...
The women from "kassa" and other public services act as a "racist" with everybody (that's our second problem))))), so, please, let it pass))

Guest
17-03-2008, 23:56
Thre is not too much racism in Russia but there is a lot of "hooliganism". It's getteing dangerous to walk in the street after 11 p. m. already.

:11157:



Are you serious? The only time I was attacked in the night was by 2 young girls that absolutely wanted a place to ... sleep :)

quincy
18-03-2008, 00:55
Are you serious? The only time I was attacked in the night was by 2 young girls that absolutely wanted a place to ... sleep :)
if these are the attacks, I'm sure many men would wish them to increase (and not just at night)!
:D

Korotky Gennady
18-03-2008, 01:46
Are you serious? The only time I was attacked in the night was by 2 young girls that absolutely wanted a place to ... sleep :) Do you have a mobile phone ? :plane:

Guest
18-03-2008, 09:13
Do you have a mobile phone ? :plane:


No, I have 4, why?

RRM
01-05-2008, 16:54
I am Indian by origin. I knew of this issue in Russia after seeing a bunch of horrible things on YouTube. Anyway, I have a driver who drops me at my office and back home. I use the driver wherever I go. I dont go to the Metro or Gorky Park or some parks where this is more common and usually is a gathering of skin heads. If are on an expat package, you probably will never see this as an issue. Infact I think if I spoke the language better I could do well.
The restaurant issue is something I have not noticed. Sometimes things take long but its the same in ousy restaurants anywhere in the world. I think if you are confident, learn to speak the language and hang out in decent places it makes a big difference.
I went to the fitness club today to get a membership and I got the same kind of treatment as any new comer. Yesterday I went to a Sushi bar and things were slow even for Russians. Again, if you are on an expat package it makes a big difference. It more of a classist society than racist.

RRM
01-05-2008, 16:58
if nationalism is enforced the way it has been enforced in russia, you have high chances to run into racism

nationalism, this is world history, often become racism

Sal, I agree and disagree. Some countries who have been ruled by others for a long time need a bit of nationalism to face this world and not feel inferior. On the other hand Nationalism can be dangerous as well because the world is so diverse these days that each country has minorities and they end up suffering.

albina
31-08-2008, 18:23
howl at the moon or whateverin thier own house but one needs to have SOME respect for people in general ! Yesterday aCNN reporter made a story of YOUNG GIRLS kissing in public. I did not watch to see what age, 10 or 12 or whatever. He had the good looking women on the tele. and brought up Madonna and Britney. I am not Mormon or Baptist ,but I say " HOW FAR "does society permit things to go? I don't want a guy rubbing my leg , and I filed a paper with the boss when one did this at work. The higher level union man told that guy to quit this . I saw men holding hands in public. This is sick plane out ! That is WHY my wife who has HIGH principals says LIFE was of a higher level in Soviet Times ! We all like good looking men and women no matter where they are from. Just look into James Bond! Maybe not all of you out there . Somethings should not be permitted. I was told the aborigines in the arab countries have thier jollies with donkeys. I don't know ! You have to live there to know the people .... I watched David Niven as I stated. Cherrio all !