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Alan65
30-01-2015, 23:24
And/or America would stop pushing Ukraine to kill their own people. You really have no clue what's going on.

Divide and rule...divide and rule...slav killing slav ..The programme is working.

Tzushima
31-01-2015, 05:57
And/or America would stop pushing Ukraine to kill their own people. You really have no clue what's going on.

Do you hold Vladimir Putin responsible in any capacity for the civil war in Ukraine?

I am curious how you balance out the various regional and international players and their culpability?

I guess I am curious in your understanding why it would be irresponsible of the West to foment a coup in Kyiv but at the same time that "crime" would make it correct for the RF to foment a similiar coup in Donbass and/or Crimea? I am curious your stance on how one crime committed by the Western powers would lead to an acceptance of another crime committed by the Russian powers?

Uncle Wally
31-01-2015, 09:04
Do you hold Vladimir Putin responsible in any capacity for the civil war in Ukraine?

I am curious how you balance out the various regional and international players and their culpability?

I guess I am curious in your understanding why it would be irresponsible of the West to foment a coup in Kyiv but at the same time that "crime" would make it correct for the RF to foment a similiar coup in Donbass and/or Crimea? I am curious your stance on how one crime committed by the Western powers would lead to an acceptance of another crime committed by the Russian powers?



Putin did not foment any coup in Donbas. If you knew enough about Ukraine or Russia you would know that the people in Donbas are Russian. The fact that when people in Kiev protested the west screamed "you better not shoot anyone" but when people in Donbas protest the west screams " shoot them!" The first thing the new Kiev government did was to outlaw the Russian language and sent nazi to kill protesters in Odessa. So yes from what I know there is a big difference between Putin trying to save the lives of people in eastern Ukraine and America trying to wipe them out and steal their riches.

Tzushima
31-01-2015, 09:20
Putin did not foment any coup in Donbas. If you knew enough about Ukraine or Russia you would know that the people in Donbas are Russian. The fact that when people in Kiev protested the west screamed "you better not shoot anyone" but when people in Donbas protest the west screams " shoot them!" The first thing the new Kiev government did was to outlaw the Russian language and sent nazi to kill protesters in Odessa. So yes from what I know there is a big difference between Putin trying to save the lives of people in eastern Ukraine and America trying to wipe them out and steal their riches.

right, I get your moral equivilancy of the situation. That is why I asked you to quantify your assessment of responsibility. Is there 0% effect on the situation from the Russian side?

At what level do you trust Putin's ability to stop the war and create relatively transient state like those near Georgia and Moldova? I am seriously interested in your assessment here.

Uncle Wally
31-01-2015, 09:39
right, I get your moral equivilancy of the situation. That is why I asked you to quantify your assessment of responsibility. Is there 0% effect on the situation from the Russian side?

At what level do you trust Putin's ability to stop the war and create relatively transient state like those near Georgia and Moldova? I am seriously interested in your assessment here.



First it was Georgia who attacked and killed Russian peacekeepers and civilians. Moldova I don't know much about except they make good wine.

Putin could stop this if America wasn't standing behind Ukraine trying to ruin everything.

Let me ask you this. If the people in Crimea really wanted to stay in Ukraine why was there no fighting? Why doesn't Ukraine attack Crimea? Could it be that the Ukrainian people really don't want a civil war?

I heard an Ukrainian general said on a TV news program that there are no Russian troops fighting in Ukraine that there may be Russians but they are not Russian regulars. We'll see what happens to him.

Tzushima
31-01-2015, 09:42
Putin could stop this if America wasn't standing behind Ukraine trying to ruin everything.


I am not sure I understand you here? What specifically about America standing behind Ukraine is stopping him now? The Sanctions?

Uncle Wally
31-01-2015, 09:59
I am not sure I understand you here? What specifically about America standing behind Ukraine is stopping him now? The Sanctions?



No everytime they make a deal to calm things down Ukraine start shooting and blame it on Russia. Don't you think it is funny that everytime Joe Biden or the head of the CIA came to Ukraine Ukraine would carry out some new anti terrorist actions like the one in Odessa? How is it that the vice president of the United States can just take a suitcase with $50 million dollars cash with him and hand it over to the prime minister of another country? Also you see nothing wrong with an American being the finance minister of Ukraine?

bydand
31-01-2015, 10:05
How is it that the vice president of the United States can just take a suitcase with $50 million dollars cash with him and hand it over to the prime minister of another country?

The money was just printed the day before!:Loco:

Tzushima
31-01-2015, 10:11
No everytime they make a deal to calm things down Ukraine start shooting and blame it on Russia. Don't you think it is funny that everytime Joe Biden or the head of the CIA came to Ukraine Ukraine would carry out some new anti terrorist actions like the one in Odessa? How is it that the vice president of the United States can just take a suitcase with $50 million dollars cash with him and hand it over to the prime minister of another country? Also you see nothing wrong with an American being the finance minister of Ukraine?

that goes back to my previous question where I was curious how you would quantify nation states responsibilities.

Is it 50% Ukraine's fault, 50% America's fault? Where does the guilt lie, empirically and measurably in your estimation?

Does Russia have 0% culpability here, even with the "peaceful" reintroduction of Crimea to Russia?

fenrir
31-01-2015, 10:38
No everytime they make a deal to calm things down Ukraine start shooting and blame it on Russia. Don't you think it is funny that everytime Joe Biden or the head of the CIA came to Ukraine Ukraine would carry out some new anti terrorist actions like the one in Odessa? How is it that the vice president of the United States can just take a suitcase with $50 million dollars cash with him and hand it over to the prime minister of another country? Also you see nothing wrong with an American being the finance minister of Ukraine?

More lies from the usual suspect. Every time things calm down, Russia uses that time to send in more equipment and men. Remember the Russian paratroopers who got 'lost' and were captured in Ukraine and the equipment that was found that were models Russia exports to NO ONE?

fenrir
31-01-2015, 10:51
Let me ask you this. If the people in Crimea really wanted to stay in Ukraine why was there no fighting? Why doesn't Ukraine attack Crimea? Could it be that the Ukrainian people really don't want a civil war?

I heard an Ukrainian general said on a TV news program that there are no Russian troops fighting in Ukraine that there may be Russians but they are not Russian regulars. We'll see what happens to him.

Ukraine doesn't attack the Crimea because they don't have the military capability to take it. They didn't resist the initial takeover because it was brilliantly carried out and caught everyone off guard. Of course the Ukrainians don't want a civil war but that doesn't mean they are not willing to fight the one Moscow has pushed on them. Btw, Strelkov has made statements that contradict your so-called Ukrainian general.

Uncle Wally
31-01-2015, 11:51
The money was just printed the day before!:Loco:



What are you laughing at? It happened just like in 1996 the US sent Yelsin $1 billion in cash! We found out about it when a guy was stopped leaving the Kremlin with $2 million dollars and not just any dollars but brand new bills that were not in circulation in the states yet. The American ambassador to Russia recalled later how nervous he was to have a few palette of $100 bills sitting in the embassy. Now that gravy!

bydand
31-01-2015, 13:47
What are you laughing at? It happened just like in 1996 the US sent Yelsin $1 billion in cash! We found out about it when a guy was stopped leaving the Kremlin with $2 million dollars and not just any dollars but brand new bills that were not in circulation in the states yet. The American ambassador to Russia recalled later how nervous he was to have a few palette of $100 bills sitting in the embassy. Now that gravy!

How many billions are in Putin's suitcases?:confused:

Uncle Wally
31-01-2015, 14:55
How many billions are in Putin's suitcases?:confused:



No billions for him. Soros said he paid 3 billion I think for Ukraine not sure how much he pays for protest in Russia.

bydand
31-01-2015, 16:07
No billions for him. Soros said he paid 3 billion I think for Ukraine not sure how much he pays for protest in Russia.

You're forgetting, or disregarding, the billions he got from Khodorkovsky, after privatizing Yukos (there's a privateer/pirate for you). Much the same with Sechin and Rosneft. I know, don't confuse you with facts, your mind's made up.

drbobguy
31-01-2015, 17:35
Let me ask you this. If the people in Crimea really wanted to stay in Ukraine why was there no fighting? Why doesn't Ukraine attack Crimea? Could it be that the Ukrainian people really don't want a civil war?

Right back at you: if Slaviansk was the center of the populist uprising in Donb**** why has it been totally quiet since Ukraine retook it in August/September?

Maybe because the Russians sent there by Moscow were pulled out?

Uncle Wally
31-01-2015, 23:08
You're forgetting, or disregarding, the billions he got from Khodorkovsky, after privatizing Yukos (there's a privateer/pirate for you). Much the same with Sechin and Rosneft. I know, don't confuse you with facts, your mind's made up.



Are you sure of that? Are you so sure that money didn't end up in the Russian budget?

Tzushima
01-02-2015, 05:02
Are you sure of that? Are you so sure that money didn't end up in the Russian budget?

so none of us really know anything

Uncle Wally
01-02-2015, 09:32
so none of us really know anything


I remember the money did go into the Russian budget from the sale of Yukos.

bydand
01-02-2015, 09:37
The Russian budget includes the Siloviki's suitcases.

AstarD
01-02-2015, 09:44
I remember the money did go into the Russian budget from the sale of Yukos.

Yah, all $9 billion of it, even though the company was valued at more than $50 billion.

Uncle Wally
01-02-2015, 11:13
Yah, all $9 billion of it, even though the company was valued at more than $50 billion.



At least Russians own it now unlike privatizations sold away on the cheap.

bydand
01-02-2015, 11:40
At least Russians own it now unlike privatizations sold away on the cheap.

Sure, and the Robber Barons made more billions when they "nationalized" it.

Yukos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On December 19, 2004, the Baikalfinansgrup, an unknown company registered several days before the auction in Tver at an address where a snack bar was located, won the auction for Yukos's subsidiary Yuganskneftegas with a 260.75 billion rubles ($9.4 billion) bid.[54] According to people familiar with the auction[who?] only two bidders registered for, and were present during, the auction process: Baikalfinansgrup and Gazprom's former oil unit Gazpromneft. Accounts from the auction say that the first bid of US$8.6 billion came from Baikal. When the auctioneer asked Gazpromneft to offer its price, a representative of the company asked to make a telephone call and left the room. A few minutes earlier, the auctioneer had told participants that using a mobile phone or leaving the room was against the rules. When a Gazpromneft representative returned to the room, Baikal made a bid of US$9.3 billion. Gazpromneft never placed a bid or spoke out. Shortly after the Yuganskneftegaz auction, Rosneft, Russian state-owned oil company, acquired 100% of shares in Baikalfinansgrup. The acquisition of Yuganskneftegaz significantly increased Rosneft's profits and made it one of the largest oil companies in Russia.[55]

Uncle Wally
01-02-2015, 12:01
What has any of this have to do with Ukraine?

bydand
01-02-2015, 12:20
What has any of this have to do with Ukraine?

As much as this...



What are you laughing at? It happened just like in 1996 the US sent Yelsin $1 billion in cash! We found out about it when a guy was stopped leaving the Kremlin with $2 million dollars and not just any dollars but brand new bills that were not in circulation in the states yet. The American ambassador to Russia recalled later how nervous he was to have a few palette of $100 bills sitting in the embassy. Now that gravy!

Now, the Robber Barons want a gravy slice of Ukraine.

Russian Lad
01-02-2015, 12:29
Bydand, at this juncture I honestly think there is no point in talking to them anymore. It is totally useless. Let's see the results in one year. :7525: They will speak better than words.

bydand
01-02-2015, 12:33
Bydand, at this juncture I honestly think there is no point in talking to them anymore. It is totally useless. Let's see the results in one year. :7525: They will speak better than words.

Well Lad, right now its either play with Wally, or play Spider Solitaire, but I get your point; Spider Solitaire now!

FatAndy
01-02-2015, 13:10
the rebels are really all Ukrainians .
Not "rebels", but healthy forces of Ukrainian society. And not all, around 80% are citizens of Ukraine.


they got their new weapons from the Kiev Army ).
Not all, many of them were conserved in salt mines near Artemovsk. Some of them they have purchased outside of Ukrainian territory. And yes, I like your pronunciation - Kiev. :ok:

Uncle Wally
01-02-2015, 17:18
Bydand, at this juncture I honestly think there is no point in talking to them anymore. It is totally useless. Let's see the results in one year. :7525: They will speak better than words.


I feel the same way, totally useless talking with you. With Russia's humanitarian relief program going so well it should be over in less than a year, you can go back to whining in 6 months.

Peter P.
01-02-2015, 20:30
Well this guy is always happy to see his revenues going up.

Frankling speaking, all this crisis, seems to me a little bit to big and to complicated to blame it enterily to G. Soros.

If we find the players profiting from this, we will be closer to the authors.

my humble opinion

Tzushima
01-02-2015, 21:35
I feel the same way, totally useless talking with you. With Russia's humanitarian relief program going so well it should be over in less than a year, you can go back to whining in 6 months.

I don't think you two are taking into the account of the peanut gallery who appreciate the riposte and counter-riposte

Uncle Wally
01-02-2015, 22:39
I don't think you two are taking into the account of the peanut gallery who appreciate the riposte and counter-riposte



Well if you put it that way.


I shall continue.

PJB
02-02-2015, 00:31
I feel the same way, totally useless talking with you. With Russia's humanitarian relief program going so well it should be over in less than a year, you can go back to whining in 6 months.

Nothing will be over in such a short time. This results of this conflict will take many years for both Ukraine and Russia to recover from (if they ever completely recover it will be a miracle). No matter who "wins" the war both countries lose people, prosperity and a secure future for their countries.

bydand
02-02-2015, 09:57
With Russia's humanitarian relief program going so well it should be over in less than a year, you can go back to whining in 6 months.


What? They're going to put bread in their rockets, like El Cid put bread in his catapults?

Uncle Wally
02-02-2015, 10:15
What? They're going to put bread in their rockets, like El Cid put bread in his catapults?



No they're going to stop the nazi from killing innocent people who want to be free of US interference in their country.

Uncle Wally
02-02-2015, 10:39
Nothing will be over in such a short time. This results of this conflict will take many years for both Ukraine and Russia to recover from (if they ever completely recover it will be a miracle). No matter who "wins" the war both countries lose people, prosperity and a secure future for their countries.



Why? Because the US of A won't let it? You know if America didn't meddle so much in other countries business the world would be a much safer place. If they didn't go to Iraq millions of people would still be alive. If they didn't go to Afghanistan or Libya or Syria. If they left Cuba alone it could have done much better not to mention all the trouble they started in South America. All over the world divide and ruin seems to be the policy. You should be ashamed of yourself letting this happen for so many years. Russia will prevail.

FatAndy
02-02-2015, 11:03
The thread is closed by the request of OP.

AstarD
02-02-2015, 11:06
Really? Russian Lad requested it be closed? Really?

Judge
02-02-2015, 11:15
Really? Russian Lad requested it be closed? Really?

Yes, send him a PM if you don't believe us. .....

AstarD
02-02-2015, 11:25
Yes, send him a PM if you don't believe us. .....Actually, I think Fat Andy started this thread. He cherry picked some posts from another thread and started this thread. It's not Russian Lad's thread at all. So sure, Andy can request it be closed. Why not?

Uncle Wally
02-02-2015, 11:28
Actually, I think Fat Andy started this thread. He cherry picked some posts from another thread and started this thread. It's not Russian Lad's thread at all. So sure, Andy can request it be closed. Why not?



Lying and mod bashing is that you do.

Judge
02-02-2015, 11:33
Actually, I think Fat Andy started this thread. He cherry picked some posts from another thread and started this thread. It's not Russian Lad's thread at all. So sure, Andy can request it be closed. Why not?

Lad doesn't want his name as op, both of them can agree to close it.
I'll close it on both of their behalf.

Judge
02-02-2015, 11:36
Lying and mod bashing is that you do.

She isn't doing any of the above.the thread was started like she says

You're welcome to start a new thread.