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Suuryaa
16-10-2014, 22:26
I hear about lots of people abandoning their religions and becoming Muslims. Can't understand why. Islam is just another religion. Yes, there's propaganda in some places, but still, if people choose it, they think it more attractive than other religions.

Or is this phenomenon just getting a lot of attention from the media, but in fact is exaggerated?

MashaSashina
17-10-2014, 00:13
Where do you hear it from? Do those converted to Islam tell you this? If yes - which religions they abandoned? :)
Sounds like an Islam ad. :)

Suuryaa
17-10-2014, 00:22
Where do you hear it from? Do those converted to Islam tell you this? If yes - which religions they abandoned? :)
Sounds like an Islam ad. :)

Saw some news about Germans abandoning Christianity.

Benedikt
17-10-2014, 06:12
Saw some news about Germans abandoning Christianity.


Germans and Austrian are quitting Catholic -church- in numbers that seem to be alarming the clergy. and fewer and fewer young men want to become priests. that does not mean though,people abandoning the catholic faith as such. it is just that the church as an institution is for the birds. the paedophilic scandals, celibate, -no woman-, the iron grip on power by a bunch of old men who lost all sense of reality. a situation like this is just to much for many.
another story is the high unemployment rate of young people, and special that of maybe not german -ethic- nationality. ( no flame please, just don't know any better word). No work, no money, lousy future. Disillusioned with the government. seeing and reading about the corruption there, every day.
The grass is definitely NOT greener there.
a breeding ground for Muslim preachers to get conversos. and send them into the fields as cannon fodder. For that the young people are to stupid to realise that. and when they come home in body bags it is too late to realise that.
http://www.oe24.at/welt/Islamist-ruft-Oesterreicher-zum-Kampf-auf/161531787
click on the video, while it is in German language, it has English subtitles.
and Google Chrome or -Yandex translate- will do a not too bad job translating the article. if you have set the function in your browser.

Suuryaa
17-10-2014, 11:40
Germans and Austrian are quitting Catholic -church- in numbers that seem to be alarming the clergy. and fewer and fewer young men want to become priests. that does not mean though,people abandoning the catholic faith as such. it is just that the church as an institution is for the birds. the paedophilic scandals, celibate, -no woman-, the iron grip on power by a bunch of old men who lost all sense of reality. a situation like this is just to much for many.
another story is the high unemployment rate of young people, and special that of maybe not german -ethic- nationality. ( no flame please, just don't know any better word). No work, no money, lousy future. Disillusioned with the government. seeing and reading about the corruption there, every day.
The grass is definitely NOT greener there.
a breeding ground for Muslim preachers to get conversos. and send them into the fields as cannon fodder. For that the young people are to stupid to realise that. and when they come home in body bags it is too late to realise that.
http://www.oe24.at/welt/Islamist-ruft-Oesterreicher-zum-Kampf-auf/161531787
click on the video, while it is in German language, it has English subtitles.
and Google Chrome or -Yandex translate- will do a not too bad job translating the article. if you have set the function in your browser.

Thanks for your comment, Ben, it explains many things. I didn't know that the economic situation in Germany was so bad.

AstarD
17-10-2014, 11:49
I've taken several "about religion" courses, and one in particular on Islam. I think it's because Islam is a rule-based religion. There seems to be a rule for every aspect of life, and therefore very little need to think about what to do in a given situation.

rusmeister
17-10-2014, 11:55
Hey, Ben,
My short and simple observations (people complain about long and complex ones):
Islam is a simplified form of Christianity. (I believe it to be a Christian heresy, though that gets long and complex). It has fairly simple and straightforward teachings, and offers something a hedonistic world is starved for - a doable form of asceticism.

Most Christian faiths have abandoned any serious discipline of asceticism, even in their teachings. In the West, the last great hold-out - the Catholic Church, abandoned most of its ascetic practices or the laity in Vatican II.
We all know that if we kept discipline, such as diet and exercise, it is good for lazy bodies. Islam offers something of that in its fasts.
As a simple and clear religion, in the vacuum left by the abandonment of traditional Christian faith, Islam is bound to appeal.

I could say a lot about asceticism in the Eastern Church, including its ascetic teachings, and how Orthodoxy, too has seen a revival - certainly in the US. But that's the short answer, anyway.

Benedikt
17-10-2014, 18:43
As a simple and clear religion, in the vacuum left by the abandonment of traditional Christian faith, Islam is bound to appeal.



I am reading at the moment the book by Barbara Thiering 'Jesus The Man' ( A new Interpretation of the Dead Sea Scrolls).
They use a translation technique called -Pesher- and many ,if not all things, that we were taught in Church and about what had happened come to a simple and BELIEVABLE explanation and conclusion.
Too bad no one believes it and special not a few old men in the Vatican and around the Church palaces and cathedrals.
A lot of grief and pain would not have happened, but it was all in vain. A few old men said =it can not be and therefore it will not be=. end of the story and beginning of the drama.

rusmeister
17-10-2014, 22:49
As a simple and clear religion, in the vacuum left by the abandonment of traditional Christian faith, Islam is bound to appeal.



I am reading at the moment the book by Barbara Thiering 'Jesus The Man' ( A new Interpretation of the Dead Sea Scrolls).
They use a translation technique called -Pesher- and many ,if not all things, that we were taught in Church and about what had happened come to a simple and BELIEVABLE explanation and conclusion.
Too bad no one believes it and special not a few old men in the Vatican and around the Church palaces and cathedrals.
A lot of grief and pain would not have happened, but it was all in vain. A few old men said =it can not be and therefore it will not be=. end of the story and beginning of the drama.

You haven't told us the simple and believeable explanation and conclusion.
Many things are believeable, and many of those things are not true. Obama could be a Muslim secretly bound to destroy the United States, to tear down its traditional religion and culture by any means possible. It is rather believeable, but true? Dunno. I would find it believeable if you told me that Mother Teresa was your great aunt - but it's probably not true.

I think you sell thousands of highly intelligent men and women across twenty centuries very short by implying that only a few (presumably gullible) old men believed it (and you leave unclarified exactly what they believe), and you give no indication of the basis on which they believe(d) what they believe(d), or how you know that.

I am sure there are some things I would agree with you on. But given that I know of a large number of very intelligent people who were no simple dupes who believed in the Christian faith as defined in the Seven Ecumenical Councils of the ancient Church, I cannot accept the idea that even in the Catholic Church (which I think to be in serious error), the great Tradition which can claim Augustine, Chrysostom, Thomas Aquinas, Gregory the Great, Teresa of Avila and Mother Teresa can be reduced to the alleged conniving of a small number of old and foolish men.

rusmeister
08-11-2014, 17:12
Islam is a complete and true religion...thats why people choosing Islam.

I appreciate this kind of answer far more than those that pretend to defend or admire it while being completely uninterested in whether it is true or not.

Obviously there must be truth in its teachings or it wouldn't have lasted for 1400 years. Give me someone who believes it is true any day over one that doesn't think the truth is worth fighting over.

ConanS
08-11-2014, 18:19
I know in America, it's the fastest growing religion basically because people are disillusioned with other religions, the government, etc. From my research on the topic, Islam has been cited as being more open to all people (I saw that some Native Americans have been converting, for one) and that it offers more chances. I know it won't be much, but I wrote a paper on it, if anybody wants to know about what I found out about it.

rusmeister
09-11-2014, 08:31
I know in America, it's the fastest growing religion basically because people are disillusioned with other religions, the government, etc. From my research on the topic, Islam has been cited as being more open to all people (I saw that some Native Americans have been converting, for one) and that it offers more chances. I know it won't be much, but I wrote a paper on it, if anybody wants to know about what I found out about it.

Well, I'll still oppose it as false.
To say that "Islam has been cited" is to omit who did the citing. I think the major world religions are all "open" in inviting people to discover truth in them.

I do agree on disillusionment insofar as people had hoped for better from the Christian culture before rejecting it wholesale. But I don't think that the illusions have been lost, only changed. Now people live under the illusion that they think they "know" Christianity, because they grew up in a culture that had once been Christian. So it doesn't seem exotic. But that is only because of the false sense of familiarity, which they admittedly don't have in regard to Islam and other Eastern religions. It is that sense of exotica, combined with simplicity and asceticism, that draws Westerners to Islam.

ConanS
09-11-2014, 11:09
Well, I'll still oppose it as false.
To say that "Islam has been cited" is to omit who did the citing. I think the major world religions are all "open" in inviting people to discover truth in them.

I do agree on disillusionment insofar as people had hoped for better from the Christian culture before rejecting it wholesale. But I don't think that the illusions have been lost, only changed. Now people live under the illusion that they think they "know" Christianity, because they grew up in a culture that had once been Christian. So it doesn't seem exotic. But that is only because of the false sense of familiarity, which they admittedly don't have in regard to Islam and other Eastern religions. It is that sense of exotica, combined with simplicity and asceticism, that draws Westerners to Islam.

There's the concept of a religious free market, yeah. Essentially, it's up to everybody to sniff out all the religions and pick which ones you think you liked or will adhere to the most. Now granted, it may dilute your faith if you can say "nah, I think I'll become Baptist and not Jewish", but it does go with your point. Also, I got my information from the Pew Research Center, if that helps. Another fact about Islam that I've stumbled upon is that a lot of incarcerated (i.e. prisoners) form one of the biggest bunch of converts, as they feel that Islam can help guide them; you mileage may vary on this, as you could argue that this may or may not be a good thing.

vossy7
09-11-2014, 18:00
We were at the monastery in Serpukhov this morning , I go with my wife because it is so important for her. At 08:00 this morning it was full to the rafters and it was that way till we left at 12:00......we do this every Sunday but I ,honestly, spend most of the time walking around the area ......I am still moved by the passion and the singing of people from all walks of life......no Mosques there !

rusmeister
09-11-2014, 18:21
There's the concept of a religious free market, yeah. Essentially, it's up to everybody to sniff out all the religions and pick which ones you think you liked or will adhere to the most. Now granted, it may dilute your faith if you can say "nah, I think I'll become Baptist and not Jewish", but it does go with your point. Also, I got my information from the Pew Research Center, if that helps. Another fact about Islam that I've stumbled upon is that a lot of incarcerated (i.e. prisoners) form one of the biggest bunch of converts, as they feel that Islam can help guide them; you mileage may vary on this, as you could argue that this may or may not be a good thing.

As expressed here, this an attitude that doesn't seem so interested in the truth.
Is the truth whatever is cheapest and easiest (the free market)? Is it "what we like" or will be comfortable "adhering to"?

When you talk about "diluting your faith" I don't follow you.

Islam is growing in the US at least as much due to the open floodgates of immigration as to converts, imo more so. Kind of the opposite of Orthodoxy in the US where immigrants wind up being minorities today in congregations full of converts where they once dominated.

But certainly people feel that Islam can guide them. It offers an authority higher and better thought out than our hedonistic selves. It's just that the same is true for the (genuinely) traditional forms of Christianity, Judaism, and so on. The thing that draws people to Eastern religions is their exoticness - they know that they know little of them, and so they approach them fairly. This is not true of the public attitude toward traditional Christian
faith, which is much more of a "been there, done that" kind of attitude.

I think if we retold the Gospel of Christ in the form of a Chinese myth about the Son of Heaven, people would be fascinated at all of the detail they never knew existed. There is, in the West, a specific prejudice against Christian faith, and I think similar prejudices exist in other cultures among those that reject the traditional religion of the culture, thinking they already know it, when often it is a lack of familiarity that is a large part of the problem. It's just that our own history is rooted in (what was once) Christendom.

ConanS
09-11-2014, 20:30
When you talk about "diluting your faith" I don't follow you.

In the sense of the free market that if you decide a certain religion isn't for you, you can always go on to find another; you're not exactly beholden to a certain religion, if that makes sense. For instance, if you're Catholic, for instance. A hypothetical situation I'm trying to make is this: for all intents and purposes, you're Catholic, but the knowledge that the so-called "religious free market" is out there can entice you to maybe delve into being Presbyterian, a Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, or other religions. Like, you could pull a "I'm getting tired of this for a variety of reasons, so I'm jumping ship". I realize I may be rambling a bit, so if it doesn't make sense, I can try my best to come up with other examples.

ConanS
09-11-2014, 20:37
But certainly people feel that Islam can guide them. It offers an authority higher and better thought out than our hedonistic selves. It's just that the same is true for the (genuinely) traditional forms of Christianity, Judaism, and so on. The thing that draws people to Eastern religions is their exoticness - they know that they know little of them, and so they approach them fairly. This is not true of the public attitude toward traditional Christian
faith, which is much more of a "been there, done that" kind of attitude.



As to the last point of that paragraph, I guess it's because I grew up in a predominantly Muslim neighborhood, I personally think that Buddhism excites me a bit more. I'm by no means religious, but interacting with a ton of Muslims has made me dwell on the smaller religions (hello, Zoroastrianism!) given my lack of exposure to them.

rusmeister
09-11-2014, 22:35
In the sense of the free market that if you decide a certain religion isn't for you, you can always go on to find another; you're not exactly beholden to a certain religion, if that makes sense. For instance, if you're Catholic, for instance. A hypothetical situation I'm trying to make is this: for all intents and purposes, you're Catholic, but the knowledge that the so-called "religious free market" is out there can entice you to maybe delve into being Presbyterian, a Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, or other religions. Like, you could pull a "I'm getting tired of this for a variety of reasons, so I'm jumping ship". I realize I may be rambling a bit, so if it doesn't make sense, I can try my best to come up with other examples.

OK, I see. But that's what I mean by not caring about truth. If it is true, then how can you "get tired of it"? Such an approach treats religion as a utilitarian thing rather than a search or God and truth.

ConanS
09-11-2014, 23:39
OK, I see. But that's what I mean by not caring about truth. If it is true, then how can you "get tired of it"? Such an approach treats religion as a utilitarian thing rather than a search or God and truth.

I guess some people may miss the forest for the trees in that regard. In that sense, the free-market approach really waters down religion.

Fantastika
10-11-2014, 07:59
Another fact about Islam that I've stumbled upon is that a lot of incarcerated (i.e. prisoners) form one of the biggest bunch of converts, as they feel that Islam can help guide them; you mileage may vary on this, as you could argue that this may or may not be a good thing.

This was true in US, before they opened the immigration floodgates, most of the first US Moslems were violent criminals in prison. It was a expression of hatred towards traditional American Judeo-Christian values and heritage. It is the "fastest-growing" religion because of the numbers of Moslems immigrating here. I have met several Iranians here, but they are intelligent and independent of the mosque, especially the women.

There is no "marketplace" of religions in most Moslem countries. If you are born into a Moslem family, you can be a Moslem, or you can die. Apostasy carries a death penalty. When religious freedom comes to countries run by Islam, most people will leave it, and that will be the end of Islam.

ConanS
10-11-2014, 10:34
This was true in US, before they opened the immigration floodgates, most of the first US Moslems were violent criminals in prison. It was a expression of hatred towards traditional American Judeo-Christian values and heritage. It is the "fastest-growing" religion because of the numbers of Moslems immigrating here. I have met several Iranians here, but they are intelligent and independent of the mosque, especially the women.

I haven't looked at the statistics, but how has the turmoil in the Middle East influenced the rise of immigrants in the US, do you know? Figure it may make for an interesting discussion

VicY
10-11-2014, 13:34
For me the question would be why would anyone care to adopt ANY religion??

I mean to the extent that they'd care to practice...

FatAndy
10-11-2014, 14:09
why would anyone care to adopt ANY religion??
Ta-ba-dammmm!!! Rus-mei-ster-come-o-ut!

TolkoRaz
10-11-2014, 15:24
For me the question would be why would anyone care to adopt ANY religion??

I mean to the extent that they'd care to practice...

Does your husband not worship you? ;)

rusmeister
10-11-2014, 16:18
For me the question would be why would anyone care to adopt ANY religion??

I mean to the extent that they'd care to practice...

The only good reason I can think of is the one that impelled me to faith - I find the answer makes complete sense of my life and everything in it. It makes sense of why we desire pleasure and life, and why we suffer pain and death, why I ought to want to do only good and yet frequently do wrong. In short, it is the Truth, not "a religion", that matters.

Fantastika
10-11-2014, 21:09
I haven't looked at the statistics, but how has the turmoil in the Middle East influenced the rise of immigrants in the US, do you know? Figure it may make for an interesting discussion

I don't think it's related. For sure after NATO attacks on Serbia, there was a rise in Serbian immigration, and there was program for Iraqi's, etc., same as some immigration programs for Vietnam after war ended, etc. But the main factor is just unlimited "Chain immigration." One foreigner gets here, then they apply for their parents, children, etc. The second round gets here, they apply for their families, etc. After a while the number of Moslems living in USA goes from 0 to 6 million. Same for Philippines, Indians, Ethiopians, etc. Koreans and Chinese are good at getting whole huge families here, cousins, aunts uncles, friends, by opening restaurant and applying for "employees" overseas. The restaurant usually closes after a year or so, and is re-opened by next round of immigrants. Ha-ha, I remember going into Korean store, in back, and saw some people sitting there- for some reason they thought I was immigration police, they showed me their documents and started guiltily explaining...

Fantastika
10-11-2014, 21:22
For me the question would be why would anyone care to adopt ANY religion??

I mean to the extent that they'd care to practice...

I think I am talking about something else than what everyone else is in this thread, but what is the purpose of a religion? To me a "religion" is a method to tell right from wrong, making decisions based on a system of ethics, that lead to a successful and happy life. To me, happiness is next to having a lot of money (prosperity).

If you look at it this way, Mormons in America, on average, have a higher income than the average American. So can I venture that their adherence to their religion strictures leads to a greater degree of prosperity and happiness?

So to make a pithy conclusion, no, I don't get anything from going into a church and having someone tell me I am a sinner, or have some foul-mouthed firebrand yell about "infidels." However, by adhering to the moral rules of my religion, and making daily "good" decisions based on the church's ethical system that includes all facets of my environment, in the long run I will be happier and more successful than I would be without my religion.

Just example: I can choose to drink or write today. I can get bottle of vodka and enjoy feeling, and have a good time partying. OR, I can spend time writing novel. The church doctrine advises against wasting time getting drunk. At the end of the year, I can have enjoyed freedom, 100 parties and 360 bottles of vodka. OR, if I listened to church, I can have $500,000 from sale of successful novel. Which is better? Not just what is better for me...what is better for my family, my community, my country, my environment? Having a bottle of vodka is a lot more fun and enjoyable than sitting at a word processor, but when you consider the wider ethical impact...

I think when most people here talk about "religion" they are meaning one's personal relationship with God, but I am using different, tho valid, definition, of "religion." Perhaps "a method of conducting your life so as to make yourself happier and more successful."

ConanS
10-11-2014, 21:23
I don't think it's related. For sure after NATO attacks on Serbia, there was a rise in Serbian immigration, and there was program for Iraqi's, etc., same as some immigration programs for Vietnam after war ended, etc. But the main factor is just unlimited "Chain immigration." One foreigner gets here, then they apply for their parents, children, etc. The second round gets here, they apply for their families, etc. After a while the number of Moslems living in USA goes from 0 to 6 million. Same for Philippines, Indians, Ethiopians, etc. Koreans and Chinese are good at getting whole huge families here, cousins, aunts uncles, friends, by opening restaurant and applying for "employees" overseas. The restaurant usually closes after a year or so, and is re-opened by next round of immigrants. Ha-ha, I remember going into Korean store, in back, and saw some people sitting there- for some reason they thought I was immigration police, they showed me their documents and started guiltily explaining...

Touche. Yeah, in my neighborhood back home we had a lot of SE Asians, and they definitely had their grandparents, cousins, etc. Totally understand.

Fantastika
10-11-2014, 22:14
Touche. Yeah, in my neighborhood back home we had a lot of SE Asians, and they definitely had their grandparents, cousins, etc. Totally understand.

They milked the system, too. My next door neighbor told me he was Thai, but he walked across the Thai-Cambodian border and told everyone he was Cambodian, which had a special US immigration program at that time. :)

ConanS
10-11-2014, 22:27
They milked the system, too. My next door neighbor told me he was Thai, but he walked across the Thai-Cambodian border and told everyone he was Cambodian, which had a special US immigration program at that time. :)

It wouldn't surprise me if some of my neighbors and/or their family members did that. I think my neck of the woods had some of the county's largest Laotian population as well, using my very own unscientific deductive skills.

JanC
11-11-2014, 09:39
I find the answer makes complete sense of my life and everything in it. In short, it is the Truth, not "a religion", that matters.

Except you could easily find Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc, who feel precisely the same way about their -conflicting- religions.

Clearly this intuitive notion of what makes "sense" to someone on a personal level doesn't extend all the way into reality.

Fantastika
11-11-2014, 09:52
Except you could easily find Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc, who feel precisely the same way about their -conflicting- religions.

Clearly this intuitive notion of what makes "sense" to someone on a personal level doesn't extend all the way into reality.

Yes, but "reality" is a scientific term.

JanC
11-11-2014, 10:50
Yes, but "reality" is a scientific term.

Is it? I'm not sure it's that narrow. "Real" or "imaginary" aren't scientific terms, it's just that to establish either one with certainty you'd have to use science.

We could break our heads over the question of whether something that isn't real can be true, but the only point I was making is that the intuitive feeling of a particular religion "making sense of everything" is clearly not a reliable indicator for truth as evidenced by all the different religions of the world.

The fact that there are so many religions, as neatly organized by geographical location as living species are, is always going to be a problem for anyone who tries to show theirs as "the one that is true".

Fantastika
11-11-2014, 13:46
Is it? I'm not sure it's that narrow. "Real" or "imaginary" aren't scientific terms, it's just that to establish either one with certainty you'd have to use science.

We could break our heads over the question of whether something that isn't real can be true, but the only point I was making is that the intuitive feeling of a particular religion "making sense of everything" is clearly not a reliable indicator for truth as evidenced by all the different religions of the world.


This is what you don't understand, and what I find offensive and arrogant about the viewpoint of secularists. They not only define what they believe in (truth) as "reality" they insist that I use their yardstick, "science," to measure it.

"Truth" is exact, and it is different between you and me. Even if we witness the same car accident, what you record - the event - time, place and form - is not exactly the same as what I record.

"Reality" is the real things, the solid objects. We agree there was a car accident. We don't agree on what caused it. So "reality" is also defined as what we agree on. We agree MH017 crashed, we can see the wreckage. We don't agree on what caused it.

When it comes to things like evolution or the creation of the universe, we were not there to record it, but scientists insist on cramming down our throats their version of causation, and their theories are what is forcibly taught in public schools. I don't agree with using "science" for some things, things that I take on faith.

I think that's part of what radical Islam is afraid of - Western science trying to overrule their realities.

And where the engine of Western Civilization, or "science," is going off the rails, is with their theories of how the mind works, their definition of what a "human being" is. and their rejection of the spiritual nature of a human being.

That reminds me of a painting I once did, I called it "Faith". But it got destroyed or I lost it, who knows? So it's not "real" anymore (except to me). :D

ConanS
11-11-2014, 14:11
I think that's part of what radical Islam is afraid of - Western science trying to overrule their realities.

And where the engine of Western Civilization, or "science," is going off the rails, is with their theories of how the mind works, their definition of what a "human being" is. and their rejection of the spiritual nature of a human being.


I would argue that it's that combined with the fact that they're afraid of their truths to be revealed to be false

Fantastika
11-11-2014, 17:05
I would argue that it's that combined with the fact that they're afraid of their truths to be revealed to be false

You can't use science to disprove something another person takes on faith. It just doesn't work (but you probably know this already!) :)

I can't think of good example. Well, suppose I believe God created Earth 7683 years ago. You can't educate me about Big bang theory, I won't agree with it. Or abortion. You can't convince me abortion is necessary to combat overpopulation, because I believe what Allah says, that abortion is bad.

VicY
11-11-2014, 18:05
The only good reason I can think of is the one that impelled me to faith - I find the answer makes complete sense of my life and everything in it. It makes sense of why we desire pleasure and life, and why we suffer pain and death, why I ought to want to do only good and yet frequently do wrong. In short, it is the Truth, not "a religion", that matters.

That was a good answer, Rus. Thank you! :thumbsup:

VicY
11-11-2014, 18:07
Does your husband not worship you? ;)

Occasionally, yes. But he refuses to convert ;)

VicY
11-11-2014, 18:15
but I am using different, tho valid, definition, of "religion." Perhaps "a method of conducting your life so as to make yourself happier and more successful."

Yes, perhaps you're right.

I'm convinced that religion (whichever way you choose to define it) cannot be forced on people, IF it is to work for them in a positive and beneficial way. One has to get there when it's their time - if it ever comes - and when they are ready. I have come to understand that those who find peace and fulfillment within a religion do not have to prove themselves...to anyone!

ConanS
11-11-2014, 22:29
Yes, perhaps you're right.

I'm convinced that religion (whichever way you choose to define it) cannot be forced on people, IF it is to work for them in a positive and beneficial way. One has to get there when it's their time - if it ever comes - and when they are ready. I have come to understand that those who find peace and fulfillment within a religion do not have to prove themselves...to anyone!

Bingo bango, we have a winner. Isn't religion about respect, inherently? Like, you treat others with kindness, instead of saying "my religion is better than yours". I never understood people who go on religious wars to prove that they worship a better god than others.

Fantastika
11-11-2014, 23:48
Isn't religion about respect, inherently? Like, you treat others with kindness, instead of saying "my religion is better than yours". I never understood people who go on religious wars to prove that they worship a better god than others.

Islam is the only major religion that does not have a Golden Rule.

Yaks
12-11-2014, 00:48
Islam is the only major religion that does not have a Golden Rule.

er..

http://islam.ru/en/content/story/golden-rule-islam

Fantastika
12-11-2014, 02:59
er..

http://islam.ru/en/content/story/golden-rule-islam

"That you love for the people what you love for yourself, and you hate for the people what you hate for yourself, and that you speak goodness or remain silent."
...
“The diseases of the former peoples are creeping towards you, envy and hatred, and hatred is the razor; I do not say that it shaves hair, but rather it shaves the religion; and none of you has faith until he loves others; shall I tell you what will establish that for you? Spread peace between yourselves.”

That's quite a "Golden Rule"....

Yaks
12-11-2014, 07:44
"That you love for the people what you love for yourself, and you hate for the people what you hate for yourself, and that you speak goodness or remain silent."
...
“The diseases of the former peoples are creeping towards you, envy and hatred, and hatred is the razor; I do not say that it shaves hair, but rather it shaves the religion; and none of you has faith until he loves others; shall I tell you what will establish that for you? Spread peace between yourselves.”

That's quite a "Golden Rule"....

Yes the golden rule is far more developed as a concept in islam than in christianity and judaism.

JanC
12-11-2014, 10:47
They not only define what they believe in (truth) as "reality" they insist that I use their yardstick, "science," to measure it.

How would you measure it?

Science is the only tool available which, if there is enough evidence available, can provide an actual reliable conclusion. It has a proven track record of telling true from false. There is no alternative that can do the same. If you want to use faith or intuition, you can't tell real from imaginary anymore.


"Truth" is exact, and it is different between you and me. Even if we witness the same car accident, what you record - the event - time, place and form - is not exactly the same as what I record.

The truth does not hinge on our observation. Humans are poor data gathering devices, especially when it comes to sudden unexpected events. If there was a camera which recorded the accident, it would provide the only reliable account and our differing human observations would be entirely irrelevant.


"Reality" is the real things, the solid objects. We agree there was a car accident. We don't agree on what caused it. So "reality" is also defined as what we agree on. We agree MH017 crashed, we can see the wreckage. We don't agree on what caused it.

I really don't agree, but find your definition of reality interesting.

Reality is what actually happened. Our perception, our opinion, can only come AFTER something has already happened. It cannot change what already happened in the past. If there is not enough data to form a reliable conclusion then there is a lack of certainty. Interpretations could be wrong. Everyone could be wrong. Doesn't change what actually happened.

Finding out the cause can only be done with the scientific method.


When it comes to things like evolution or the creation of the universe, we were not there to record it, but scientists insist on cramming down our throats their version of causation, and their theories are what is forcibly taught in public schools.

If a man is in court, accused of murder, and the prosecution has the murder weapon with his finger prints on it, his DNA in the flat of the victim, and camera showed him getting out of the elevator holding the gun in the victim's building at the time of the murder, would you let him off the hook on the basis that there was nobody there to witness it?

Eye witnesses are the most unreliable form of evidence anyway. If there is enough data, enough evidence left behind, then science can make a conclusion that is absolutely reliable. When you have a mountain of evidence that fits the theory, and even predicted evidence is eventually found, it's perverse to claim there is reasonable doubt.

Evolution is extremely well supported, to the point there is no doubt that it actually happened. There is much more uncertainty about the sudden expansion of the universe, but we do know that there was such a thing. And the theory predicted the background radiation long before it was actually discovered. If you don't teach these things in science cl**** what would you teach? "Let kids make up their own mind about what happened" is nonsense, reality doesn't hinge on our intuition or preference, end of.



I don't agree with using "science" for some thing

On which basis is your disagreement founded? That science is unreliable or that you'd rather not have your own perception of reality scrutinized for accuracy?



And where the engine of Western Civilization, or "science," is going off the rails, is with their theories of how the mind works, their definition of what a "human being" is. and their rejection of the spiritual nature of a human being.


I don't see such a "rejection" anywhere. It's just that there is no evidence for science to conclude that there is a spiritual nature. At no point does science rule anything out when there is no evidence available to do so.

I suspect if science did find evidence to support it (some problems with that given the nature of the subject, but still) it would be entirely embraced by those who believe in spirituality, not met by skepticism.

rusmeister
12-11-2014, 18:03
I dunno.
There's plenty of stuff here to comment on or object to. I'm just not sure I really want to. Plain old contentiousness doesn't interest me. It's one thing when someone defends what they think actually true. It's another thing altogether when people defend something the truth of which they don't care about. That's boring and hypocritical (which means "insufficiently self-critical").

I have things I could say about F's definition of religion as a thing to achieve happiness and success (which misses most of the point of religion), Conan's failure to understand serious religion, a thing one would live and die for, and Jan's assumption of scientific rationalism, which leaves out both reason and experience as "unreliable" (though evidently he would find the same faulty human minds viewing a video camera as somehow "more reliable").

I'd recommend a little "Father Brown" to you, Jan, to illustrate how truth can be arrived at in rational, non-scientific ways. "The Blue Cross" is a classic story, and Alec Guiness even played the starring role in a film of it some 60 years ago.

There are some good podcasts by Dr Clark Carlton where he discusses the inadequacy of scientific rationalism. I'd have to dig them up, I suppose, but who would listen if I did? Is it even worth trying to say anything?