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annasophia
24-08-2014, 03:55
Long article which can be read at the link. This is a partial excerpt.


Another Journalist Exposes MH17 False Flag

19.08.2014



So who did shoot the plane down?

“Here the waters get very rough and very ugly. The specific area where the fatal missile was fired is not in fact under control of the “pro-Russia rebels”. It is run by a neo-nazi private mercenary army, raised by Ukrainian billionaire Ihor Kolomoisky.

“Kolomoisky stinks of being an asset of the US and Israeli intelligence services, at minimum. He holds both Ukrainian and Israeli passports and runs his business empire from Switzerland, not Kiev, despite being Governor of Dnipropetrovsk oblast in eastern Ukraine. His mercenary army does possess the BUK missiles allegedly used in the shootdown of MH-17, and he has threatened terrorist attacks on Russian-speaking officials in his oblast, and even assassinations.

“Estimated to be the second-richest person in Ukraine, Kolomoisky also has strong connections inside Kiev’s Borispol International Airport, whose air traffic control tower Ukrainian Interior Ministry troops reportedly stormed shortly before MH-17 was shot down. New Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov, formerly wanted by Interpol for fraud, was the man who first designated the east Ukraine rebels as “terrorists,” which ostensibly allows him to commit any atrocity against innocent civilians very much as Israel is doing in Gaza today.

“Furthermore, in a personal interview with the Veterans Today Tbilisi Georgia bureau chief Jeffrey Silverman pointed shared with Engdahl the possible complicity of the Inmarsat Company in the MH17. Inmarsat, which lists the Pentagon and US Government as major clients, controls most international air traffic control communications systems. According to Silverman, during the earlier disappearance of Malaysian Airlines flight MH370 the flight was “lost” due to Inmarsat turning off their signals, and it still refuses today to release the data it has about this flight.

Inmarsat is key to aviation safety through its 24/7/365 Network Operations Security Center (NOSC), highly skilled and cleared personnel maintain onsite Communications Security (COMSEC) capabilities. It works closely with IA certifiers to ensure adherence to all government requirements. Significantly however it employs (U.S. and NATO cleared personnel in support of its customers’ Authority to Operate (ATO), Information Security (INFOSEC) and IA process requirements.

“In an interview just after the downing of MH17, a Spanish national identified only as “Carlos” told ETN, an online news service, that his private evaluation, based on military sources in Kiev, was that the Ukrainian military was behind this shoot down. He said that Kiev radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear that a passenger jet had been shot down, and all foreign employees of Air Traffic Control in Kiev were sacked immediately. Carlos also reported that the very same MH17 plane had been escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared from radar. We may never hear any more from Carlos though, because just after his report was posted on the internet he disappeared and his social media accounts were wiped, and no one seems to know his whereabouts.

“Kolomoisky’s forces comprise Ukrainian regular military personnel; neo-Nazi units from west Ukraine; foreign mercenaries, including Georgians, Romanians, and white supremacists from Sweden and Germany, and ex-Israel Defence Force Blue Helmet commandos. Georgians in Kolomoisky’s Army have reportedly been trained in the use of the BUK missile systems that the Viktor Yushchenko government sold to then-Georgia President Mikheil Saakashvili. Saakashvili has announced that he has been offering “consulting services” in Ukraine, and Kolomoisky has used these as part of his military and political campaign against the breakaway people’s republics of Donetsk and Luhansk.

“A serious truth-seeking investigation ought to start with Kolomoisky and his international network. But at this point it is clear that the attempt to pin the MH17 atrocity on Putin’s Russia is a classic CIA “false flag” operation, an attempt to try to blame the enemy for what you yourself have actually done, though this has begun to badly backfire.”

http://journal-neo.org/2014/08/19/another-journalist-exposes-mh17-false-flag/

JanC
24-08-2014, 14:12
Oh wonderful, another conspiracy theory.

Why haven't you posted the one yet which claims the Ukrainian rebels were trying to bring down an Aeroflot plane to trigger a Russian invasion? They're all equally retarded, might as well post them all.

quincy
24-08-2014, 14:25
Oh wonderful, another conspiracy theory.

Why haven't you posted the one yet which claims the Ukrainian rebels were trying to bring down an Aeroflot plane to trigger a Russian invasion? They're all equally retarded, might as well post them all.

Yawn

annasophia
24-08-2014, 14:30
Oh wonderful, another conspiracy theory.

Why haven't you posted the one yet which claims the Ukrainian rebels were trying to bring down an Aeroflot plane to trigger a Russian invasion? They're all equally retarded, might as well post them all.


Engdahl is is a fairly credible independent journalist.

Look around for yourself at Ukrainian billionaire Ihor Kolomoisky. Turns out to be a very interesting character indeed.


And it seems that a number of countries have agreed not to release what is known about the crash -
http://www.blacklistednews.com/MH-17_%E2%80%98Investigation%E2%80%99%3A__Secret_August_8th_Agreement_Seeps_Out_Perpetrator_of_the_Downing_in_Ukraine%2C__Will_Stay_Hidden/37472/0/38/38/Y/M.html

JanC
24-08-2014, 15:06
Engdahl is is a fairly credible independent journalist.

I don't care who he is, I read the ''article" rather than his bio.

I actually read that as well, and he believes quite a number of things which are scientifically unsupported like oil not being biological.

Anyway.

The article says that the key questions to ask are:

1) Why did the pilot divert from his usual flight plan?
2) Why did he fly over restricted airspace?
3) What, if any, instructions, did Kiev air control give the pilot in the minutes before the tragic explosion?

1) The deviation was was not unusual or abnormal. Nor was it huge in terms of how airliners navigate around weather on a daily basis.

2) The airspace he was in was not restricted. Multiple commercial airliners used the same airspace that day, no need to single out the deceased crew.

3) We don't know yet.


What will happen is, at some point in the not too distant future, the air crash investigation will release an interim report. Much after that, a final report. These will contain many facts which we can currently only guess at. Probably some transcripts between the plane and ATC will also be included.

What will also happen is, conspiracy theorists will continue to see conspiracies left right and center. The reports into the crash will be classified as the result of a conspiracy involving several independent governments and thousands of actual people. Go ahead and circlejerk around ''the truth which they don't want us to know'' but the only actual fact I see is gigantic paranoia. That and the ancient habit of skipping the part where you gain knowledge and go straight to whatever explanation floats your boat.

Uncle Wally
24-08-2014, 18:02
I don't care who he is, I read the ''article" rather than his bio.

I actually read that as well, and he believes quite a number of things which are scientifically unsupported like oil not being biological.

Anyway.

The article says that the key questions to ask are:

1) Why did the pilot divert from his usual flight plan?
2) Why did he fly over restricted airspace?
3) What, if any, instructions, did Kiev air control give the pilot in the minutes before the tragic explosion?

1) The deviation was was not unusual or abnormal. Nor was it huge in terms of how airliners navigate around weather on a daily basis.

2) The airspace he was in was not restricted. Multiple commercial airliners used the same airspace that day, no need to single out the deceased crew.

3) We don't know yet.


What will happen is, at some point in the not too distant future, the air crash investigation will release an interim report. Much after that, a final report. These will contain many facts which we can currently only guess at. Probably some transcripts between the plane and ATC will also be included.

What will also happen is, conspiracy theorists will continue to see conspiracies left right and center. The reports into the crash will be classified as the result of a conspiracy involving several independent governments and thousands of actual people. Go ahead and circlejerk around ''the truth which they don't want us to know'' but the only actual fact I see is gigantic paranoia. That and the ancient habit of skipping the part where you gain knowledge and go straight to whatever explanation floats your boat.



Check your facts again. The acticle was pretty close to the facts that we have.

rumple_stilskin
24-08-2014, 18:24
Oh wonderful, another conspiracy theory.

Why haven't you posted the one yet which claims the Ukrainian rebels were trying to bring down an Aeroflot plane to trigger a Russian invasion? They're all equally retarded, might as well post them all.

What's a conspiracy theory?

It's seems to be a description used to slur an opposing view. Usually it's used by those that wish to support the banker controlled governments in the west(that's a conspiracy theory too).

Other conspiracy theories include: (that means they are total lies)
1. Iraq had no WMD...it's there and will be found.
2. Veitnam war was based on a so called "bay of tonken lie"
3. Gadaffi was supported by 70% of the population, only alkaeda hated him.
Gadaffi was not given his troops to rape women.
4. ISIS were responsible for the chemical attack in Syria, backed by USA.
5. Street thugs overthrew a democratically elected governement in the Ukraine in 2013, replaced by oligarchs and banker puppets.
6. Iraq number 1 war:Iraqis killing pregnant women in Kuwait was a big fat lie used to start a war.

The Ukrainian chocolate king was responsable for the malaysian flight crash, this is conspiracy theory too.

Western politicians equals goodness in their purest form. They are especially great as advised by the western media, most of which is owned by rupert murdoch.(oh, not know him...the one who hacked murdered childrens phones, and the relatives of dead soldiers phones to sell more newspapers when not busy bribing police. Rupert murdoch is the guradian of politicians morals and honesty, we are so lucky)

Uncle Wally
24-08-2014, 19:26
Don't forget my favorite!

Operation Northwoods was a series of proposals that originated within the Department of Defense (DoD) and the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) of the United States government in 1962. The proposals, which called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or other operatives, to commit acts of terrorism in US cities and elsewhere, were rejected by the Kennedy administration.[2]

At the time of the proposal, Cuba had recently become communist under Fidel Castro. The operation proposed creating public support for a war against Cuba by blaming it for terrorist acts.[3] To this end, Operation Northwoods proposals recommended hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. It stated:


The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.


Operation Northwoods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The breeding grounds for such,

Skull and Bones,

Among prominent alumni are former President and Supreme Court Justice William Howard Taft (a founder's son); former Presidents George H. W. Bush and his son, George W. Bush; Supreme Court Justices Morrison R. Waite and Potter Stewart;[19] James Jesus Angleton, "mother of the Central Intelligence Agency"; Henry Stimson, U.S. Secretary of War (1940-1945); U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert A. Lovett, who directed the Korean War; and Henry Luce, founder and publisher of Time, Life, Fortune, and Sports Illustrated magazines.[citation needed]

John Kerry, U.S. Secretary of State and former U.S. Senator; Stephen A. Schwarzman, founder of Blackstone Group; Austan Goolsbee,[20] Chairman of Barack Obama's Council of Economic Advisers; Harold Stanley, co-founder of Morgan Stanley; and Frederick W. Smith, founder of FedEx, are all reported to be members.


Skull and Bones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

rumple_stilskin
24-08-2014, 21:26
the CIA overthowing a democratically elected governement in Iran in 1953 is a conspiracy theory too. the CIA puppet shah then gave Irans oil to USA for free. conspiracy theory! even though documents released by 30 year rules prove it. Its a conspiracy theory against america.

1953 Iranian coup d'Ă©tat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The USA puppet shah killed tens of thousands of Iranians.....

Uncle Wally
24-08-2014, 22:03
And the list goes on and on,

A military coup overthrew Allende on 11 September 1973. As the armed forces bombarded the presidential palace, Allende apparently committed suicide.[41][page needed][42][page needed] After the coup, Henry Kissinger told U.S. president Richard Nixon that the United States had "helped" the coup.[43]



A military junta, led by General Augusto Pinochet Ugarte, took control of the country. The first years of the regime were marked by human rights violations. On October 1973, at least 72 people were murdered by the Caravan of Death.[44] According to the Rettig Report and Valech Commission, at least 2,115 were killed,[45] and at least 27,265[46] were tortured (including 88 children younger than 12 years old).[46] At the national stadium, filled with detainees, one of those tortured and killed was internationally known poet-singer Victor Jara (see "Music and Dance", below). The stadium was renamed for Jara in 2003. In September 2013, Pedro Barrientos, Pinochet's commander at the stadium and now a resident of Florida, was sued in a United States federal court by the Center for Justice and Accountability, on behalf of Jara's widow and children.


Chile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

JanC
25-08-2014, 07:12
What's a conspiracy theory?

Most of the time it is a straw for the highly opinionated to grasp at when there is a conflict between what they can accept as true and what the official explanation is.

It's not by definition wrong, like a broken clock is right twice a day.


It's seems to be a description used to slur an opposing view.

Well it can only be used in 1 direction. And can I ask you once again, what would make you believe this theory, but not the Ukrainian conspiracy theory that the rebels were trying to hit an Aeroflot plane? To someone who knows little about aviation and military technology both of them could be convincing enough. So on what basis did you choose, simply that which feels more plausible to you?


I call something a conspiracy theory when it is clear that facts and rumours are organized in a specific way in search of a conclusion that agrees with what someone already believes to be the case.

It nearly always leaves out many things for no other reason than that they do not fit the theory. It's not a collection of all available data which is then interpreted in the most plausible way, instead it just casts often unrelated things as too much of a coincidence.

In this case, one thing which is left out for example is that pictures of the wreckage suggest it was hit by a surface to air missile rather than an air-to-air one. It make the whole unsupported fighter plane hearsay irrelevant as the wreckage does not support it.

You are right to distrust Western media, but wrong to trust Russian media or these kinds of ''investigative journalism'' more. If you look at these conspiracy sites, their entire business is simply finding ways to claim the opposite of whatever a government line is. Or whatever the scientific consensus on something is. People want to believe that their opinions and gut feelings are right even if nearly everyone says they are not.

It is illogical to assume that because media X has been shown to be inaccurate on occasion, that whenever you find a ''theory'' that contradicts news delivered by media X it is therefore more likely to be correct regardless of what the counter-claim is.

The only certain truth is that you don't know what actually happened. And neither do I.

One quote which sums up the most reasonable way to look at these things: Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

Uncle Wally
25-08-2014, 17:23
Most of the time it is a straw for the highly opinionated to grasp at when there is a conflict between what they can accept as true and what the official explanation is.

It's not by definition wrong, like a broken clock is right twice a day.



Well it can only be used in 1 direction. And can I ask you once again, what would make you believe this theory, but not the Ukrainian conspiracy theory that the rebels were trying to hit an Aeroflot plane? To someone who knows little about aviation and military technology both of them could be convincing enough. So on what basis did you choose, simply that which feels more plausible to you?


I call something a conspiracy theory when it is clear that facts and rumours are organized in a specific way in search of a conclusion that agrees with what someone already believes to be the case.

It nearly always leaves out many things for no other reason than that they do not fit the theory. It's not a collection of all available data which is then interpreted in the most plausible way, instead it just casts often unrelated things as too much of a coincidence.

In this case, one thing which is left out for example is that pictures of the wreckage suggest it was hit by a surface to air missile rather than an air-to-air one. It make the whole unsupported fighter plane hearsay irrelevant as the wreckage does not support it.

You are right to distrust Western media, but wrong to trust Russian media or these kinds of ''investigative journalism'' more. If you look at these conspiracy sites, their entire business is simply finding ways to claim the opposite of whatever a government line is. Or whatever the scientific consensus on something is. People want to believe that their opinions and gut feelings are right even if nearly everyone says they are not.

It is illogical to assume that because media X has been shown to be inaccurate on occasion, that whenever you find a ''theory'' that contradicts news delivered by media X it is therefore more likely to be correct regardless of what the counter-claim is.

The only certain truth is that you don't know what actually happened. And neither do I.

One quote which sums up the most reasonable way to look at these things: Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.



1 The rebels had nothing to gain and everything to lose. Why would the rebels want to hit an Airflot plane? To piss Russia off and lose support? Maybe so Russia would join the fight against them? This is not logical.

Why would Ukraine shoot the plane down and what would they have to gain? Condemnation of the rebels by the EU and the world. This is logical and we have just witnessed it in Syria with the gas attack. Like Ukraine is using the same play book.


2A missle did not hit the plane or if it did it was also hit by machine gun fire. A missle would have spead shrapnel on only one side of the plane. The holes I see in the photos are entrance and exit holes on the same piece of the plane. This could only happen if the plane was shot at from both sides. This is why the plane was asked to fly lower.


3Yeah CNN and the BBC muff stuff up all the time, remember the time the BBC reported building 7 falling with a live shot of the building still standing behind the reporter? Or the time CNN was to lazy to go to Saudi Arabia and do real reporting so just hauled some fake palm trees up on the roof and reported from there. Or just last year at the Boston bombing they set up two chairs in the same parking lot and fake like they were reporting from different places. Or like the more recent report that Ukraine destroyed Russian tanks crossing the border.

quincy
25-08-2014, 22:26
And the list goes on and on,


The Indonesian killings of 1965–1966 were an anti-communist purge following a failed coup of the 30 September Movement in Indonesia. The most widely accepted estimates are that more than 500,000 people were killed. The purge was a pivotal event in the transition to the "New Order"; the Indonesian Communist Party (PKI) was eliminated as a political force
............................................................
The killings started in October 1965 in Jakarta, spread to Central and East Java and later to Bali, and smaller outbreaks occurred in parts of other islands, including Sumatra.[11][17] The communal tensions and hatreds that had built up were played upon by the Army leadership who demonised Communists, and many Indonesian civilians took part in the killings.[18] The worst massacres were in Central and East Java[19] where PKI support was at its strongest. The situation varied across the country and the role of the Army has never been fully explained.[20] In some areas the Army organised, encouraged, trained, and supplied civilian groups and local militias.[17] In other areas, communal vigilante action preceded the Army, although in most cases killings did not commence before military units had sanctioned violence by instruction or example.[21] It was in the earlier stages of the killings that the army's direct involvement in clashes with the PKI occurred.[14] By the end of October, groups of devout Muslims joined the purge of Communists claiming it was their duty to cleanse Indonesia of atheism.[14]
...............................................
In some areas, civilian militia knew where to find known Communists and their sympathisers, while in others the Army demanded lists of Communists from village heads.[22] PKI membership was not disguised and most suspects were easily identified within communities.[23] The American Embassy in Jakarta supplied the Indonesian military with lists of up to 5,000 suspected Communists
.............................................
A top secret CIA report described the massacre as "one of the worst mass murders of the 20th century, along with the Soviet purges of the 1930s, the Nazi mass murders during the Second World War, and the Maoist bloodbath of the early 1950s
Indonesian killings of 1965–66 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

penka
25-08-2014, 23:01
Most of the time it is a straw for the highly opinionated to grasp at when there is a conflict between what they can accept as true and what the official explanation is.

It's not by definition wrong, like a broken clock is right twice a day.



Well it can only be used in 1 direction. And can I ask you once again, what would make you believe this theory, but not the Ukrainian conspiracy theory that the rebels were trying to hit an Aeroflot plane? To someone who knows little about aviation and military technology both of them could be convincing enough. So on what basis did you choose, simply that which feels more plausible to you?


I call something a conspiracy theory when it is clear that facts and rumours are organized in a specific way in search of a conclusion that agrees with what someone already believes to be the case.

It nearly always leaves out many things for no other reason than that they do not fit the theory. It's not a collection of all available data which is then interpreted in the most plausible way, instead it just casts often unrelated things as too much of a coincidence.

In this case, one thing which is left out for example is that pictures of the wreckage suggest it was hit by a surface to air missile rather than an air-to-air one. It make the whole unsupported fighter plane hearsay irrelevant as the wreckage does not support it.

You are right to distrust Western media, but wrong to trust Russian media or these kinds of ''investigative journalism'' more. If you look at these conspiracy sites, their entire business is simply finding ways to claim the opposite of whatever a government line is. Or whatever the scientific consensus on something is. People want to believe that their opinions and gut feelings are right even if nearly everyone says they are not.

It is illogical to assume that because media X has been shown to be inaccurate on occasion, that whenever you find a ''theory'' that contradicts news delivered by media X it is therefore more likely to be correct regardless of what the counter-claim is.

The only certain truth is that you don't know what actually happened. And neither do I.

One quote which sums up the most reasonable way to look at these things: Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

Of course, I don't know, what happened to this airplane.

However, I know, the US, Ukraine and Europe were very eager to blame Russia for shooting it down well before the black boxes were located and the investigation begun. Is that a normal open democratic practice?

That very same Ukrainian gov also claimed to destroy a group of Russian military vehicles that allegedly crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border. Where are the pictures?

Why the black boxes info is not to be presented to the public but only to those "it is concerned with"? And where are the tapes from the traffic control?

If everyone is so positive, it were the Russians who did it, why aren't the investigators shaking the documented proof before Churkin's nose already?

vossy7
25-08-2014, 23:36
Of course, I don't know, what happened to this airplane.

However, I know, the US, Ukraine and Europe were very eager to blame Russia for shooting it down well before the black boxes were located and the investigation begun. Is that a normal open democratic practice?

That very same Ukrainian gov also claimed to destroy a group of Russian military vehicles that allegedly crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border. Where are the pictures?

Why the black boxes info is not to be presented to the public but only to those "it is concerned with"? And where are the tapes from the traffic control?

If everyone is so positive, it were the Russians who did it, why aren't the investigators shaking the documented proof before Churkin's nose already?

Wow Pen.....you are really on your high horse....maybe I can cook a burger for you sometime :piano:

penka
26-08-2014, 00:13
Wow Pen.....you are really on your high horse....maybe I can cook a burger for you sometime :piano:

Voss', you are wow-ing me a lot tonight:) Make it a crab cake!

JanC
26-08-2014, 07:10
The rebels had nothing to gain and everything to lose.

The rebels would not have gained anything from Russia sending in the troops? You might not have noticed, but they certainly aren't winning this war on their own.

In any case, that conspiracy is every bit as ludicrous as the one you posted, just to make clear my position on that. It's just that there are several conspiracy theories to choose from. They're all claiming different things too, if you noticed. If there is a hidden truth, it's sure not easy to see what it actually is.


Why would Ukraine shoot the plane down and what would they have to gain? Condemnation of the rebels by the EU and the world.

They already had that to begin with. And aside from rhetoric and sanctions that don't help Ukraine, the shot down airliner has not helped Ukraine one bit has it? No-one is coming to their rescue with billions of modern military equipment to be sure.

Both your suppositions involve the airliner being shot down on purpose. See the last line of my previous reply. It is far more likely the airliner was shot down by accident. A mistake of identity. Incompetence rather than malice.



A missle did not hit the plane or if it did it was also hit by machine gun fire. A missle would have spead shrapnel on only one side of the plane. The holes I see in the photos are entrance and exit holes on the same piece of the plane.

This is an argument based on ignorance, though it is true that the missile itself did not hit the plane directly as it wasn't designed to. The holes which look like ''exit holes'' (you're not a ballistics expert, I assume) can be created by an object (shrapnel or bullet) coming from that same side. When there are multiple layers of material involved, or the projectile hits something solid not too far from the surface, the outer layer will initially be bent inward, but as the object then hits subsequent layers, hot gases are forced out via the entry hole and they can peal the skin the other way.

A theory that involves the cockpit being shot at from both directions is realistically impossible to execute. Just think of the angles fighter planes would have to approach the jet liner at. It's a suicidal attack pattern that cannot possibly work in the real world. Also, there is a lack of uniformity in the size of the projectiles which is unlike bullets.

Or, maybe you could wonder why all these conspiracies don't mention that an SU-25 has a ceiling of only 23.000 feet (and much less than that with full weapons) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Su-25#Specifications_.28Su-25.2FSu-25K.2C_late_production.29
MH17 was at 33,000 feet. How do the conspiracy geniuses figure a plane like that would shoot both sides of the 777 cockpit?


Or like the more recent report that Ukraine destroyed Russian tanks crossing the border.

I actually saw that on the BBC, and what they actually wrote was that Ukraine claimed that they had done so. Which was true. They also said it was disputed and could not be verified at the time. There is a difference here.

Again, I am the last person to say that the Western media are entirely reliable. But why are you going only after them? Do you believe Russian or Chinese media are any better? There are many examples where they make stuff up or tell lies as well. Likewise, do you believe everything on these conspiracy sites? From Bush blowing up the WTC, remote controlled planes, the moon landing hoax, etc? I would hope you don't believe all of that.

So while we can safely say any and all media are inherently unreliable, why do you only go after the Western ones?

RT originally posted this radar picture as proof of a fighter jet being near MH17, except it was a Signapore airlines 777-200 as the flight number clearly shows. And the other contact certainly wasn't an SU-25. To their credit (or not) they did remove it afterwards, but meanwhile the impression had been created based on irrelevant data.

https://www.metabunk.org/data/MetaMirrorCache/36009311e7549b19a4d09f17087388a6.png

Uncle Wally
26-08-2014, 13:38
The rebels would not have gained anything from Russia sending in the troops? You might not have noticed, but they certainly aren't winning this war on their own.

In any case, that conspiracy is every bit as ludicrous as the one you posted, just to make clear my position on that. It's just that there are several conspiracy theories to choose from. They're all claiming different things too, if you noticed. If there is a hidden truth, it's sure not easy to see what it actually is.



They already had that to begin with. And aside from rhetoric and sanctions that don't help Ukraine, the shot down airliner has not helped Ukraine one bit has it? No-one is coming to their rescue with billions of modern military equipment to be sure.

Both your suppositions involve the airliner being shot down on purpose. See the last line of my previous reply. It is far more likely the airliner was shot down by accident. A mistake of identity. Incompetence rather than malice.




This is an argument based on ignorance, though it is true that the missile itself did not hit the plane directly as it wasn't designed to. The holes which look like ''exit holes'' (you're not a ballistics expert, I assume) can be created by an object (shrapnel or bullet) coming from that same side. When there are multiple layers of material involved, or the projectile hits something solid not too far from the surface, the outer layer will initially be bent inward, but as the object then hits subsequent layers, hot gases are forced out via the entry hole and they can peal the skin the other way.

A theory that involves the cockpit being shot at from both directions is realistically impossible to execute. Just think of the angles fighter planes would have to approach the jet liner at. It's a suicidal attack pattern that cannot possibly work in the real world. Also, there is a lack of uniformity in the size of the projectiles which is unlike bullets.

Or, maybe you could wonder why all these conspiracies don't mention that an SU-25 has a ceiling of only 23.000 feet (and much less than that with full weapons) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Su-25#Specifications_.28Su-25.2FSu-25K.2C_late_production.29
MH17 was at 33,000 feet. How do the conspiracy geniuses figure a plane like that would shoot both sides of the 777 cockpit?



I actually saw that on the BBC, and what they actually wrote was that Ukraine claimed that they had done so. Which was true. They also said it was disputed and could not be verified at the time. There is a difference here.

Again, I am the last person to say that the Western media are entirely reliable. But why are you going only after them? Do you believe Russian or Chinese media are any better? There are many examples where they make stuff up or tell lies as well. Likewise, do you believe everything on these conspiracy sites? From Bush blowing up the WTC, remote controlled planes, the moon landing hoax, etc? I would hope you don't believe all of that.

So while we can safely say any and all media are inherently unreliable, why do you only go after the Western ones?

RT originally posted this radar picture as proof of a fighter jet being near MH17, except it was a Signapore airlines 777-200 as the flight number clearly shows. And the other contact certainly wasn't an SU-25. To their credit (or not) they did remove it afterwards, but meanwhile the impression had been created based on irrelevant data.

https://www.metabunk.org/data/MetaMirrorCache/36009311e7549b19a4d09f17087388a6.png



I meant sending troops against them.

And sorry but you can still find the video by RT where Russia shows a plane or planes following the jet. But I like that stuff about the gas, that's almost as good as a 47 story building falling straight down in 6 seconds because of a few small fires.

What about all the things people posted here don't you understand? Do you understand Operation Northwoods and all the other criminal behavior? Why would a government with such a criminal past change? To me it just seems they are only getting more bold and arrogant.

JanC
26-08-2014, 14:45
And sorry but you can still find the video by RT where Russia shows a plane or planes following the jet.

Am I glad you brought that up. No fault of RT here actually, they simply showed the Russian MoD presentation where they show an unknown radar target (not identified so you can't say it was a jet) near MH17 shortly after the transponder signal drops. It's worth pointing out they are showing civilian ATC radar (primary and secondary) nothing military.

In that presentation they misrepresent what the screen actually says regarding MH17's position. The square around MH17 on the screen indicates not the actual but rather the theoretical position after the transponder link was lost. Basically the ATC computer is taking a guess where it should be, but it doesn't know. The ''new target'' which could be anything which does not squawk (including a military aircraft) could even be falling debris from the plane. After all, there appears to be no lateral movement of that unidentified target. Which is rather impossible for a plane to do.

In any case, there is zero actual evidence there that proves an SU-25 was actually there, and even if it was, I don't see where you are going to go with that theory considering that plane has a ceiling more than 10,000 feet lower than MH17 was flying. All that presentation did was drop hints and ask questions but no actual useful evidence of anything was produced.

Tell me, how do you see 2 warplanes simultaneously firing rounds (and hitting) a 777 traveling at 850km/h on both sides of the cockpit from several miles below? Try to picture that in your head and it should become apparent how silly the idea is.

Uncle Wally
26-08-2014, 22:11
Am I glad you brought that up. No fault of RT here actually, they simply showed the Russian MoD presentation where they show an unknown radar target (not identified so you can't say it was a jet) near MH17 shortly after the transponder signal drops. It's worth pointing out they are showing civilian ATC radar (primary and secondary) nothing military.

In that presentation they misrepresent what the screen actually says regarding MH17's position. The square around MH17 on the screen indicates not the actual but rather the theoretical position after the transponder link was lost. Basically the ATC computer is taking a guess where it should be, but it doesn't know. The ''new target'' which could be anything which does not squawk (including a military aircraft) could even be falling debris from the plane. After all, there appears to be no lateral movement of that unidentified target. Which is rather impossible for a plane to do.

In any case, there is zero actual evidence there that proves an SU-25 was actually there, and even if it was, I don't see where you are going to go with that theory considering that plane has a ceiling more than 10,000 feet lower than MH17 was flying. All that presentation did was drop hints and ask questions but no actual useful evidence of anything was produced.

Tell me, how do you see 2 warplanes simultaneously firing rounds (and hitting) a 777 traveling at 850km/h on both sides of the cockpit from several miles below? Try to picture that in your head and it should become apparent how silly the idea is.


No not miles, feet.

I could hit targets at 350 meters no problem.

Fantastika
27-08-2014, 00:29
Well...

Still waiting for the Obama regime to release their bally-hooed satellite "proof" that pro-Russian rebels shot down MH-017.

Still waiting for Kiev to release the air-traffic chatter of MH-017.

Still waiting for the British to release the results of the investigation of the black boxes on MH-017.

Looks like they're playing "I've Got a Secret"!

Uncle Wally
27-08-2014, 01:04
Well...

Still waiting for the Obama regime to release their bally-hooed satellite "proof" that pro-Russian rebels shot down MH-017.

Still waiting for Kiev to release the air-traffic chatter of MH-017.

Still waiting for the British to release the results of the investigation of the black boxes on MH-017.

Looks like they're playing "I've Got a Secret"!


Obama got nothing to do with it. Why do you look up to the guy pulling the strings?

Please listen and read the word of this old song but the dance is the same. The old boss is the same as the old boss!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un5oEdfrm_A

JanC
30-08-2014, 21:15
No not miles, feet.

I could hit targets at 350 meters no problem.

10,000 feet is more than 3 kilometers. 3048 meters to be precise. And it would've been way more than 10k feet in reality. And don't forget you need 2 planes firing from opposite sides at precisely the same time (and hit the same part of the A/C) for your ballistics theory.





Still waiting for Kiev to release the air-traffic chatter of MH-017.

Still waiting for the British to release the results of the investigation of the black boxes on MH-017.


It is very rare for any recordings from any crash to be released. What you will get is a transcript. And it will take time, as with any crash investigation no matter who investigates. There are specific ICAO rules which mean actual publication of the reports takes many months, no matter how much the press fishes for info.

Fantastika
31-08-2014, 04:54
Obama got nothing to do with it. Why do you look up to the guy pulling the strings?

Please listen and read the word of this old song but the dance is the same. The old boss is the same as the old boss!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un5oEdfrm_A

Sir Hussein is pissed that his summer vacation keeps being interrupted.

And now, if the media will just leave him alone so he can enjoy this Labor-Day holiday.

Fantastika
31-08-2014, 05:05
It is very rare for any recordings from any crash to be released. What you will get is a transcript. And it will take time, as with any crash investigation no matter who investigates. There are specific ICAO rules which mean actual publication of the reports takes many months, no matter how much the press fishes for info.

Oh, get real. You mean they can forever hide the actual data? Not if someone sues the airline, or CNN decides it wants to make new targets and create more "bad guys." You are omitting the part about the cockpit voice recorder (CVR), which does perform the function of recording voices. There are two "black boxes" - the flight data and cockpit voice recorders.

It takes minutes, not months, to find out what's on the black boxes. The delay is either to hope the controversy will die down, and they can quietly release the real results, or they are fabricating new data. Much as the media did in the Trayvon Martin case, it edited a recorded tape, of Zimmerman's voice on his phone call to police, to make it appear Zimmerman was a racist.

And Kiev is still sitting on the air-traffic controller chatter. I'm sure I've heard recordings of other ATC chatter on the "news." Why is this information being suppressed? I guess Pope Petro, for some reason, can't dismiss this, as he has dismissed Ukraine's legislature.

JanC
31-08-2014, 11:32
You are omitting the part about the cockpit voice recorder (CVR), which does perform the function of recording voices. There are two "black boxes" - the flight data and cockpit voice recorders.

That's precisely the one I was talking about. Air crash investigations usually release (partial) transcripts of the relevants parts of the CVR, not the actual audio recording. There are some good reasons for that.

ATC communications will be included in that if they are relevant.

I suggest you look up how long it took for this kind of data to be released for other unrelated airline crashes before you go off into another conspiracy.



It takes minutes, not months, to find out what's on the black boxes. The delay is either to hope the controversy will die down, and they can quietly release the real results, or they are fabricating new data.

Again, the delay is standard procedure. Look into other crashes and you'll find the same.

Sometimes (as with AF 447 for example) some info is given by the investigators, and in this case they have also come out and said that there is nothing out of the ordinary on it. Which basically means the crew never saw it coming, and when something did happen it happened too fast to have a conversation about it.


And Kiev is still sitting on the air-traffic controller chatter. I'm sure I've heard recordings of other ATC chatter on the "news."

Again, not abnormal. You can hear ATC chatter on the "news" in some situations, for example if it happened to be recorded by plane spotters or one of the ATC websites, but generally you won't get to hear ATC or CVR chat in a case where there were fatalities.

Sometimes these tapes do turn up into the open years after (there is one out there from a US plane that ran out of fuel waiting for landing clearance for example)

I challenge you to find me the Russian ATC audio from the crash of the Polish government plane for example. You won't find it. MAK only ever released transcripts. Many conspiracy theories ensued. (for the record, I have a lot of trust in MAK, they do a good job just like the AIIB)

Fantastika
01-09-2014, 07:43
That's precisely the one I was talking about. Air crash investigations usually release (partial) transcripts of the relevants parts of the CVR, not the actual audio recording. There are some good reasons for that.


Good reasons? Such as hiding/distorting the truth so it will support your agenda?


ATC communications will be included in that if they are relevant.


And who determines if they are "relevant"? The CIA, NATO, Pope Petro?


Again, the delay is standard procedure. Look into other crashes and you'll find the same.


There's no "standard procedure" being followed here. When there is veil of secrecy thrown over everything, and the media makes the sound of crickets, it smells, it stinks, of a cover-up.


Sometimes (as with AF 447 for example) some info is given by the investigators, and in this case they have also come out and said that there is nothing out of the ordinary on it. Which basically means the crew never saw it coming, and when something did happen it happened too fast to have a conversation about it.


So you are saying the black box investigation is over, the British investigators said "there's nothing there" only silence. Where are you getting this from?


Again, not abnormal. You can hear ATC chatter on the "news" in some situations, for example if it happened to be recorded by plane spotters or one of the ATC websites, but generally you won't get to hear ATC or CVR chat in a case where there were fatalities.


We won't get to hear it? Only if the Kiev government suppresses it. Which isn't a behavioral surprise, coming from a bunch of thugs who call themselves a government.


Sometimes these tapes do turn up into the open years after (there is one out there from a US plane that ran out of fuel waiting for landing clearance for example)


Years? Now it's going to take YEARS to get information on MH-017? Why not Decades? Hey, we can expect information about the crash in 2050 or 2060, maybe?

JanC
01-09-2014, 08:11
Good reasons?

Out of respect for the deceased. In many cases, the actual audio is quite shocking anyway. The general public isn't much into the gruesome liveleak stuff. A transcript is as all the report needs, it's not like they couldn't possibly fake an audio recording if they really wanted to is it?


And who determines if they are "relevant"? The CIA, NATO, Pope Petro?

The accident investigation team. Relevance is not that difficult to determine. Clearly if they are chatting about their ex-wives for half an hour those parts aren't going to be transcribed in the report.



When there is veil of secrecy thrown over everything, and the media makes the sound of crickets, it smells, it stinks, of a cover-up.

Is this the first ever plane crash you have paid attention to? Again, look up the facts, just for once?



So you are saying the black box investigation is over, the British investigators said "there's nothing there" only silence. Where are you getting this from?

No, that is not what I am saying at all.

Someone appears to have said off the record, pending release of the interim report, that there is nothing out of the ordinary on the CVR. Which does not mean "silence". It means nothing but the usual chatter, no abnormal situation up to the point where they got hit.

http://www.nst.com.my/node/19598



We won't get to hear it? Only if the Kiev government suppresses it.

No, you won't get to hear it. We aren't that special. Find me some tapes of other plane crashes if you think this is unusual.

Kiev has no power over the CVR which contains the ATC conversation as well.

In any case, what smoking gun would you think to find on the ATC tapes? We know the plane did not change altitude, and didn't deviate significantly from its flight plan. The small deviation there was, was within bounds of the airway they were using. Most likely due to weather, which would be based on the plane's own doppler radar not ATC. So what do you think could possibly be on those tapes that is relevant to who shot it down?



Years? Now it's going to take YEARS to get information on MH-017?

I think you might need to slow down your reading speed by about 50%, for the purpose of increasing your comprehension of what is written.

Most accidents never ever release CVR audio. In one or two cases, the tapes did get into the open years later, unofficially.

Information about MH17 will be forthcoming relatively soon in an interim report by the dutch team. The final report is likely to be next year but won't be that different. Such a report gives involved parties 3 months to examine its facts and findings before publication, per the ICAO rules.

If you think non-release of ATC and CVR audio is sign of a coverup, find me the audio tapes of the Polish president's crash in Russia

Fantastika
01-09-2014, 09:29
Out of respect for the deceased. In many cases, the actual audio is quite shocking anyway. The general public isn't much into the gruesome liveleak stuff.


Did you know about Hollywood, Stephen King, etc.? Gruesome movies? Quite popular. Maybe the peons are tired of listening to the nanny-state Eurocrats tell them how big their drying irons must be, etc.

As far as respect for the dead, that is a "dead" concept in Western media, it evaporates 5 seconds after a conservative politician dies, and comes to zombie-life when a Progressive bites the dust. And it goes out the window when there is an accusation of a crime. You don't scream and accuse someone of shooting down an airplane, and then claim you can't provide evidence because of "respect for the dead."


A transcript is as all the report needs,
...it's not like they couldn't possibly fake an audio recording if they really wanted to is it?


Huh? I could do that myself, with Sonic audio editing software.



Someone appears to have said off the record, pending release of the interim report, that there is nothing out of the ordinary on the CVR. Which does not mean "silence".


Right, this "news" outlet describes the plane crash as a "monstrous crime" and they quote from an "unidentified source," and why would this "unidentified source" choose to confide in some obscure small-circulation newspaper in some remote part of the planet? I can guess which biased side they're on. Seriously, Western media has zero, zilch, zip, nada credibility. Period.


No, you won't get to hear it. We aren't that special. Find me some tapes of other plane crashes if you think this is unusual.


Looks like the people who object to any sunshine on secret black-box recordings, and who slammed shut the door on openness 20 years ago, are the pilots and the regulatory people who might be held legally responsible when accidents occur. This way they can delay, deny and obfuscate, for years if necessary. Just another corrupt system, covered in layers of secrecy.



Kiev has no power over the CVR which contains the ATC conversation as well.

Neither does Russia, which is being accused of causing the accident, accused most vociferously by the same country which is conducting the secret investigation. But Russia is denied access to this "evidence" and is not allowed to participate in the investigation.


Information about MH17 will be forthcoming relatively soon in an interim report by the dutch team. The final report is likely to be next year but won't be that different. Such a report gives involved parties 3 months to examine its facts and findings before publication, per the ICAO rules.

Except that this is NOT an "international team." It is a team in England, a NATO country, which does as the US tells it to do. An objective credible investigation would have teams from Russia and the Donbass (who were accused of causing the accident) as co-investigators, to prevent any hanky-panky going on. Then when the findings were presented, they would have credibility.

Presenting the findings to Russia after they are done investigatin' is like telling a suspect "You're guilty. We have the evidence to prove it. No, the evidence is secret, you can't look at it."




If you think non-release of ATC and CVR audio is sign of a coverup, find me the audio tapes of the Polish president's crash in Russia

Ask Poland where they are. They are almost as corrupt as Ukraine.

American Right and Left media, both who love to indulge in Russia-bashing, agreed that it was an accident, not a conspiracy.

So who's the conspiracy nut now?

JanC
01-09-2014, 10:43
Did you know about Hollywood, Stephen King, etc.? Gruesome movies? Quite popular.

Do you think anyone who goes to see these things doesn't know they are fictional?

Actual snuff movies aren't nearly as popular are they?



Huh? I could do that myself, with Sonic audio editing software.

Right. So what good would it do to release a recording which people like you can dismiss as fake anyway? A transcript is as good as a recording.


Seriously, Western media has zero, zilch, zip, nada credibility. Period.

Are you suggesting that non-Western media is an objective bastion of truth?



This way they can delay, deny and obfuscate, for years if necessary. Just another corrupt system, covered in layers of secrecy.

If it is how you say, every country in the world does it this way. So you can hardly single out "the West" for that.


But Russia is denied access to this "evidence" and is not allowed to participate in the investigation.

Really? How about you back up this statement with some facts. To my knowledge Russia has not made any request to have access to the data recorders.



Ask Poland where they are. They are almost as corrupt as Ukraine.

Why would I ask Poland about a Russian ATC tape? Russia has it. They have not released it. Omg conspiracy!



American Right and Left media, both who love to indulge in Russia-bashing, agreed that it was an accident, not a conspiracy.

As do I.


So who's the conspiracy nut now?

Well not me. Really, slow down your reading and try to keep up. I was not suggesting a conspiracy, I was saying that the tapes you are asking for are never released by anyone. So the fact that the MH17 tapes are not being broadcast around the world is not suspicious, it does not suggest anything, it is normal.

MH17 ATC tapes not released: "Smells like a coverup!"
Polish airforce 101 ATC tapes not released: "Everyone agreed it wasn't a coverup!"

I'm only pointing out your inconsistency in drawing conclusions from things which don't support any in the first place.

Fantastika
03-09-2014, 07:02
Obsessive? Four times you post the same agit-prop? Quadruptlets?

Who is JanC?

I know, :) JanC is:

Colossus: The Forbin Project (1970) - IMDb

JanC
03-09-2014, 08:28
Heh, during posting the forum would get stuck at "waiting for expat.ru" and I just left it open after a few attempts. By the time I looked at it again a few hours later it was too late to edit any of them.

I have no comment on the nature of my being :)

Fantastika
03-09-2014, 11:15
Do you think anyone who goes to see these things doesn't know they are fictional?

Actual snuff movies aren't nearly as popular are they?


Whoa, who's talking about snuff movies? Get your mind out of the gutter. You said people don't like gruesome things, I disagreed, I said people do like gruesome things, that's why they read SK, go to sh#t movies like "Silence of the Lambs" and nightly TV features murder, rape and assault after gruesome murder, rape and assault. Either zombified people like that crap, or it's the only offering from the Hollywood sewer.


Right. So what good would it do to release a recording which people like you can dismiss as fake anyway? A transcript is as good as a recording.


No it isn't. A transcript is 1000x easier to fake than a recording. I can use an audio editor to zoom in and spot cut-and-paste discrepancies as easy as anyone can use a photo/paint editor to zoom in and spot the sloppy cut-and-paste of Obama's fake Selective Service and Birth Certificates.


Are you suggesting that non-Western media is an objective bastion of truth?


Who said that? In this case, however, at least I can get an alternative to the political fiction promulgated by the Western media. The CNN, BBC, Euronews, Moscow News, etc. reporting is a sick, pathetic joke.


If it is how you say, every country in the world does it this way. So you can hardly single out "the West" for that.


Who is singling out the West for owning corrupt systems? Not me. You are claiming the West, its systems, and its media is not corrupt. Sorry, but it is.


Really? How about you back up this statement with some facts. To my knowledge Russia has not made any request to have access to the data recorders.


Ha-ha. LIke Russia is going to ask. To be invited to the party. Any party. I don't know why they didn't ask. If I was in charge, I would have my attorneys in their face.


Why would I ask Poland about a Russian ATC tape? Russia has it. They have not released it. Omg conspiracy!


You, not me, are the one who keeps harping on some sort of conspiracy in this Polish airliner case. Both sides already agreed there was no cover-up, no conspiracy. If you have more to add to the Polish airliner "conspiracy", what is it?


Well not me. Really, slow down your reading and try to keep up. I was not suggesting a conspiracy, I was saying that the tapes you are asking for are never released by anyone. So the fact that the MH17 tapes are not being broadcast around the world is not suspicious, it does not suggest anything, it is normal.


Yes, too bad is it *normal* that this type of obfuscation and concealment is now SOP.


MH17 ATC tapes not released: "Smells like a coverup!"
Polish airforce 101 ATC tapes not released: "Everyone agreed it wasn't a coverup!"

I'm only pointing out your inconsistency in drawing conclusions from things which don't support any in the first place.

The *inconsistency* is that everyone agreed there *wasn't* a coverup in Polish case, everyone DOES NOT agree there isn't a coverup in MH-017 case.

JanC
03-09-2014, 11:35
Whoa, who's talking about snuff movies? Get your mind out of the gutter. You said people don't like gruesome things

What I said was in a certain context. You know, like a CVR recording of actual people actually dying. Do you think many people want to hear that? If not, then what on earth were you on about?


A transcript is 1000x easier to fake than a recording.

Fine. Even so, you just claimed to be able to do it yourself, you don't think the CIA or whoever would have the resources for that?

You're the one who is taking the non-release of audio as evidence of a conspiracy, when in fact it is normal practice. By everyone, including Russia. It's a meaningless argument.



at least I can get an alternative to the political fiction promulgated by the Western media

So you get alternative fiction, what do you gain?
Seems to me you go out looking for an alternative every time you don't like what is being reported. Statistically, some of the things you don't like are going to be true anyway.



Who is singling out the West for owning corrupt systems? Not me.

Really? All I see you post is about how the West is lying about everything. If you have ever posted criticism about non-western media or government, I'd like to see the link.



Ha-ha. LIke Russia is going to ask.

From the same person who claimed they were "denied access" to the evidence. Do you ever read your own stuff?

You also seem to be entirely ignorant about how data recorders are handled in air disasters on foreign soil.



You, not me, are the one who keeps harping on some sort of conspiracy in this Polish airliner case.

Because it blows your nonsense about ATC recordings out of the water.

Russia didn't care about Polish conspiracy theories to release the tapes, and neither does anyone who controls the recordings care about pleasing the MH17 conspiracy theorists. They can't be pleased anyway, no matter what is released they will always stick with their version of the story regardless of evidence.



everyone DOES NOT agree there isn't a coverup in MH-017 case.

There is a complete absence of evidence to support a conspiracy theory here, just like there was in the Polish Tu crash. There is no difference.

The only difference is that the conspiracies are coming from the other side this time, but it's equally shoddy "detective" work by people who don't have a clue what they are looking at.

Fantastika
03-09-2014, 12:14
What I said was in a certain context. You know, like a CVR recording of actual people actually dying. Do you think many people want to hear that? If not, then what on earth were you on about?


You're the one who brought up snuff films. What on earth on you about?

Yes sir, people want to hear it, if hearing it means making a difference in a conflict not becoming a full-fledged war.


Fine. Even so, you just claimed to be able to do it yourself, you don't think the CIA or whoever would have the resources for that?


So the CIA is never incompetent? They "step in it" (the dog do-do) all the time. And whoever Obama hired to redo his birth certificate and Selective Service certificates was no expert, for sure. I could have have done a better job in 30 minutes. When I worked for the government, I was always 2 years ahead of them, computer tech-wise.
Obama didn't hire the CIA to forge his documents in 2008, he wasn't president yet.


You're the one who is taking the non-release of audio as evidence of a conspiracy, when in fact it is normal practice.


It's a corrupt system, which makes a conspiracy much more likely.


Really? All I see you post is about how the West is lying about everything. If you have ever posted criticism about non-western media or government, I'd like to see the link.


Huh? I've posted plenty of times criticising ALL media, Western, Chinese, Russian, Antarctica. If you knew me at all, you would know that I hold the media responsible for most of the world's problems.


You also seem to be entirely ignorant about how data recorders are handled in air disasters on foreign soil.


I am not ignorant, I said it was a corrupt system. And it is a corrupt system.


Because it blows your nonsense about ATC recordings out of the water.


You're the one who's being spoon-fed by the Western media, and giving a thank-you "burp."

I'm not going to keep rebutting your repeated and same arguments. We disagree, okay? Oh, wait a minute, that's not good enough, you don't accept that we disagree, you have to criticise the fact that I disagree with you. Well, go ahead, knock yourself out. :)

JanC
04-09-2014, 11:55
You're the one who brought up snuff films. What on earth on you about?

Perhaps I overestimated your ability to connect the dots.

I'll walk you through it:

1) As one of the reasons why CVR tapes of plane crashes are not usually released, I said people don't want to listen to gruesome things like that.

2) You said sure they do like gruesome things, see Hollywood.

3) I make the point that people enjoy Hollywood gruesome because they know it isn't real. The difference between a horror movie and a snuff film is that the latter is actually footage of a genuine atrocity.

4) The snuff film analogy has served its purpose to illustrate that CVR tapes are the wrong kind of gruesome (because it's real) see 1)

Are we clear on that now?


birth certificate

Please.


It's a corrupt system, which makes a conspiracy much more likely.

That's a complete non sequitur, and a disregards the importance of actual facts.


Huh? I've posted plenty of times criticising ALL media, Western, Chinese, Russian, Antarctica.

I did ask for some links there, if you noticed...


You're the one who's being spoon-fed by the Western media

Would you care to give some facts to go with your assertion? Very little of what I have posted has been drawn from "Western Media". I propably read more non-Western media if I would add it all up, and watch no TV at all (not even in hotel rooms)


you don't accept that we disagree, you have to criticise the fact that I disagree with you. Well, go ahead, knock yourself out. :)

I think you misunderstand. There is a difference between a disagreement and a logical debate. I most certainly disagree with you on many issues of opinion. But not everything is a matter of opinion. If you want to put forward the theory that an SU-25 might have shot down MH17, and I then post verifiable facts which would make it impossible for your scenario to have played out in the real world, the theory would be invalidated. Hypothetical scenario, FYI.

Our disagreement on a political issue would be different, because there is no way to settle it. Let's call it personal preference. The reality of events does not depend on personal preference, it's just a matter of having enough data to settle it. We could "agree to disagree" on the fact that the earth revolves around the sun, that doesn't mean the fact of it is still up in the air.

Uncle Wally
04-09-2014, 12:20
Perhaps I overestimated your ability to connect the dots.

I'll walk you through it:

1) As one of the reasons why CVR tapes of plane crashes are not usually released, I said people don't want to listen to gruesome things like that.

2) You said sure they do like gruesome things, see Hollywood.

3) I make the point that people enjoy Hollywood gruesome because they know it isn't real. The difference between a horror movie and a snuff film is that the latter is actually footage of a genuine atrocity.

4) The snuff film analogy has served its purpose to illustrate that CVR tapes are the wrong kind of gruesome (because it's real) see 1)

Are we clear on that now?



Please.



That's a complete non sequitur, and a disregards the importance of actual facts.



I did ask for some links there, if you noticed...



Would you care to give some facts to go with your assertion? Very little of what I have posted has been drawn from "Western Media". I propably read more non-Western media if I would add it all up, and watch no TV at all (not even in hotel rooms)



I think you misunderstand. There is a difference between a disagreement and a logical debate. I most certainly disagree with you on many issues of opinion. But not everything is a matter of opinion. If you want to put forward the theory that an SU-25 might have shot down MH17, and I then post verifiable facts which would make it impossible for your scenario to have played out in the real world, the theory would be invalidated. Hypothetical scenario, FYI.

Our disagreement on a political issue would be different, because there is no way to settle it. Let's call it personal preference. The reality of events does not depend on personal preference, it's just a matter of having enough data to settle it. We could "agree to disagree" on the fact that the earth revolves around the sun, that doesn't mean the fact of it is still up in the air.




Well there is the case of the tapes released by Ukraine, of supposed pro Russians talking about how they shot down the plane, only the date stamp shows the file was made the day before the plane was shot down. Look in any crime you have to look at who will benefit from said crime.

JanC
04-09-2014, 12:37
Look in any crime you have to look at who will benefit from said crime.

You assume malicious intent rather than incompetence. A simple mistake of identity can happen, a conspiracy involving a large amount of people willing to kill hundreds of innocent foreigners is needlessly complex.

Secondly it's not clear at all who "benefited", in fact the net result seems to have been that nobody on the ground got any real advantage from it at all.

Ukrainian propaganda is irrelevant. Each side was always going to blame the other for this. The rebels did originally claim (online) to have shot down the plane that crashed, only they thought it was a Ukrainian military plane. Whether that was based on knowledge of a missile fired, or simply assuming that any plane falling from the sky was their work, we obviously don't know.

Fantastika
04-09-2014, 13:25
Perhaps I overestimated your ability to connect the dots.


Yes, it's hard to see your fantasy dots.



1) As one of the reasons why CVR tapes of plane crashes are not usually released, I said people don't want to listen to gruesome things like that.


You shot yourself in the foot with that one.




2) You said sure they do like gruesome things, see Hollywood.
3) I make the point that people enjoy Hollywood gruesome because they know it isn't real. The difference between a horror movie and a snuff film is that the latter is actually footage of a genuine atrocity.


No, actually, people can't do things, and a criminal can't commit a crime unless he/she can visualize it beforehand. "Snuff films" inspire copycat crimes, just as repeated media coverage of school shootings inspires more school shooters.



4) The snuff film analogy has served its purpose to illustrate that CVR tapes are the wrong kind of gruesome (because it's real) see 1)


"Wrong kind" of gruesome? You are claiming that this evidence shouldn't be publicized because it's real? See "news" under "beheadings."


Are we clear on that now?

Right, it's clear as mud.

And whoever Obama hired to redo his birth certificate and Selective Service certificates was no expert, for sure.
Please.

Yes, are you computer graphics expert, too? More spoon-feeding by the Western media. Saint Barack never lied in his life, he has been perfect person, completely honest since he was little boy?

It's a corrupt system, which makes a conspiracy much more likely.

That's a complete non sequitur, and a disregards the importance of actual facts.
A "conspiracy" can only occur when the system is corrupt. And your facts, are, to most people, opinions.


I did ask for some links there, if you noticed....

Do your own research. But anyone who thinks the Western media is not biased, is delusional.


Would you care to give some facts to go with your assertion? Very little of what I have posted has been drawn from "Western Media".

ALL of what you posted was drawn from Western media.


I think you misunderstand. There is a difference between a disagreement and a logical debate. I most certainly disagree with you on many issues of opinion. But not everything is a matter of opinion.


Ah, the old "your statements are opinions" but "my statements are facts" noodle-roni. "I am logical, but you are illogical."


Our disagreement on a political issue would be different, because there is no way to settle it.

Sure there is. Ask Pope Petro and Arseniy the Arsonist how they settle a political disagreement. Or Hamas.


We could "agree to disagree" on the fact that the earth revolves around the sun, that doesn't mean the fact of it is still up in the air.

Well, I can see evidence of the sun every day. But not a single person has come forward with factual evidence of your theories, unless you give credibility to the sloppy job by Kiev of cutting-and-pasting disconnected cell-phone texts and messages as "proof."

You have camera footage of Boris and Natasha shooting it down?

JanC in a cease-fire, he would keep bombing the other guys anyway. "I never agree to a cease fire! Your wrong, you're wrong!" :irule:

Fantastika
04-09-2014, 13:43
...it's not clear at all who "benefited", in fact the net result seems to have been that nobody on the ground got any real advantage from it at all.


Bizarre statement from Mr. Logical. Kiev got tons of favorable free publicity out of this. Russia is painted as the bad guy, and Petro as Pope Innocent.
The fraudulent voice tapes were designed to gather sympathy for Poroshenko and justify the future use of NATO "humanitarian force" to publish the "evildoers."


Ukrainian propaganda is irrelevant. Each side was always going to blame the other for this.

Well, the Ukrainian propaganda, repeated 99.9% in the West, looks like it's working.

Cutting and pasting multimedia recordings to turn reality on its head is corrupt, wrong and malicious. Obviously it was malicious, just as the cut-and-paste of George Zimmerman's phone call to the police by NBC News was malicious and designed to cast Zimmerman as a racist. The MH-017 cut-and-paste job was designed to cast the rebels as the warmongers, and draw attention away from the destruction and carnage in Eastern Ukraine caused by Western-backed Kiev.

Uncle Wally
04-09-2014, 13:49
You assume malicious intent rather than incompetence. A simple mistake of identity can happen, a conspiracy involving a large amount of people willing to kill hundreds of innocent foreigners is needlessly complex.

Secondly it's not clear at all who "benefited", in fact the net result seems to have been that nobody on the ground got any real advantage from it at all.

Ukrainian propaganda is irrelevant. Each side was always going to blame the other for this. The rebels did originally claim (online) to have shot down the plane that crashed, only they thought it was a Ukrainian military plane. Whether that was based on knowledge of a missile fired, or simply assuming that any plane falling from the sky was their work, we obviously don't know.



Oh yeah they had so much incompetence that they fabricated their evidence the day before the plane was shot down, no malicious intent there. Secondly, let me put this another way. Who tried to benefit from the plane being shot down? The way the west and Ukraine were spinning it before the wreckage stop smoldering was that Putin had his finger on the button and fired the missle himself. Don't be so naive, America's play book is worn out it's been used so much in the last 13 years, but do you think the price of million of dead children are worth it? She's does,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE

JanC
04-09-2014, 17:20
Saint Barack never lied in his life, he has been perfect person, completely honest since he was little boy?

Who the F cares about Obama? You're the one who keeps bringing him up. I'd make a cheeky remark about the psychology of it, but then you don't believe in that.



"I am logical, but you are illogical."

Well, I'm making an effort to be. You, not so much as far as I can tell:


Pope Petro and Arseniy the Arsonist

What better way to have a logical discourse than to use mock names for the people who you consider to be in the wrong. Preschool debate 101.


Well, I can see evidence of the sun every day

How different would it look to you if it was revolving around us instead? Hmm?

Science class must've sounded like a lot of BS, if you had any.


But not a single person has come forward with factual evidence of your theories

My theory being what, precisely?

I've done nothing but debunk conspiracy theories posted by others.


You have camera footage of Boris and Natasha shooting it down?

You appear to be under the impression that I am claiming the rebels shot it down "for sure". That or you have an endless supply of straw.

I'm not. I'm saying the conspiracy theories out there are retarded and wrong for obvious and easily verifiable reasons.

Most likely a surface-to-air missile shot down the plane, and we don't know who fired it.

Still waiting for that link where you go after non-Western media btw. The search function on this forum seems inadequate.

Fantastika
05-09-2014, 00:40
Who the F cares about Obama? You're the one who keeps bringing him up.


He's got you fooled, too. The most powerful person in the world, but, even after 6 years, he's still got nothing to do with nothing. He's just some kind of hologram, or teleprompter? He's never responsible for anything. Barack was just driving by, coming back from another fund-raiser, and another round of golf. He don't know nothing about it. It's George Bush's fault, or it's Russia's fault, or...

The teacher has left the room. How long before the classroom is in an uproar?



Pope Petro and Arseniy the Arsonist
What better way to have a logical discourse than to use mock names for the people who you consider to be in the wrong.


Logical discourse is not allowed in the Western media. What's left for those whose views are censored, is ridicule.

MickeyTong
05-09-2014, 04:09
Logical discourse is not allowed in the Western media. What's left for those whose views are censored, is ridicule.

Expat.ru is not the Western media. Speak your mind here.

MickeyTong
05-09-2014, 04:15
Perhaps I overestimated your ability to connect the dots.


Yes, Jan, you have.