PDA

View Full Version : Journalist Says Reporters Set Up by Separatists After Cameraman Killed in Ukraine



fenrir
01-07-2014, 14:08
As usual, all is not what it first seemed to be.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/journalist-says-reporters-set-up-by-separatists-after-cameraman-killed-in-ukraine/502763.html

TolkoRaz
01-07-2014, 15:21
The UKR Army shot at a mini-bus tansporting unarmed females?

Surely not?

fenrir
01-07-2014, 15:43
The UKR Army shot at a mini-bus tansporting unarmed females?

Surely not?

Sure they did after the separatists sent it into the line of fire. Do you think Ukrainian soldiers have x-ray vision to see who or what is inside vehicles? The separatists wanted an incident to splash on the world press and even their brother Russians are expendable in such cases.

TolkoRaz
01-07-2014, 15:51
Have you served in the military or seen combat? I suspect not!

A vehicle does not pose a threat. Unless the UKR Army were being shot at from inside the mini-bus, they they should not have opened fire upon it!

The East of UKR is not Iraq, Syria etc where there are hostile vehicles laden with explosives driven by suicide bombers!

This smacks of a tragic incident involving an ill-disciplined poorly trained UKR Army unit.

Russian Lad
01-07-2014, 16:09
Have you served in the military or seen combat? I suspect not!

A vehicle does not pose a threat. Unless the UKR Army were being shot at from inside the mini-bus, they they should not have opened fire upon it!

The East of UKR is not Iraq, Syria etc where there are hostile vehicles laden with explosives driven by suicide bombers!

This smacks of a tragic incident involving an ill-disciplined poorly trained UKR Army unit.

Tolko, since you are so experienced in military matters, can you refer us to any war in which civilians were not killed? In Chechnya thousands of civilians died, for instance, including from military mistakes and crimes. Were you also adamant back then about each civilian killed?

rubyrussia
01-07-2014, 16:46
More often than not, journalists are propaganda artists or just ignorant. I love it when Anderson Cooper shows up in places like Ukraine, and tells it "like it is", because he's actually on the ground there for the first time. I have to wonder if they just open up wikipedia and start reading about such places right before they got on the air. They obviously have no clue what's going on.

TolkoRaz
01-07-2014, 16:56
Tolko, since you are so experienced in military matters, can you refer us to any war in which civilians were not killed? In Chechnya thousands of civilians died, for instance, including from military mistakes and crimes. Were you also adamant back then about each civilian killed?

RusskiLad, Of course civilians are killed, some deliberately, some accidentally.

My post was specifically about the previously mentioned incident. Firing on an unarmed mini-bus is abhorrent.

In all my time and conflicts I have been a part of, I can 100% say for sure that I have never killed an unarmed person (military or civilian). I could have killed many, but discipline and restraint is instilled in a professional who abides by the Geneva Convention.

fenrir
01-07-2014, 17:00
Have you served in the military or seen combat? I suspect not!

A vehicle does not pose a threat. Unless the UKR Army were being shot at from inside the mini-bus, they they should not have opened fire upon it!

The East of UKR is not Iraq, Syria etc where there are hostile vehicles laden with explosives driven by suicide bombers!

This smacks of a tragic incident involving an ill-disciplined poorly trained UKR Army unit.

An unidentified vehicle approaches an army base in a war zone where the separatists have been breaking the truce and firing on Ukrainian forces, and you wonder why this incident took place.

Regarding RL's point about Chechnya, the First Chechen War's results: 'Various figures estimate the number of civilian deaths at between 30,000 and 100,000 killed and possibly over 200,000 injured, while more than 500,000 people were displaced by the conflict,' and the Second Chechnya War: 'The exact death toll from this conflict is unknown. Unofficial estimates range from 25,000 to 50,000 dead or missing, mostly civilians.'

Ukrainians are total amateurs compared to Russians in the art of inflicting civilian casualties. Let's hope they don't catch up in proficiency.

Russian Lad
01-07-2014, 17:47
My post was specifically about the previously mentioned incident. Firing on an unarmed mini-bus is abhorrent.

And I do hope you have a 100% proof it was done by the Ukr army, not by the terrorists who seem to enjoy orchestrating various sorts of provocations like the recent one with the journalists.
There are gray areas at war (C)
Besides, if I took your side on how the matters are viewed in Ukraine, I would be screaming about betrayal and demanding why the Russian troops are not in Kiev yet... The inconsistency is glaring. The zugwang is merciless. The end result will be devastating.

TolkoRaz
01-07-2014, 18:36
An unidentified vehicle approaches an army base in a war zone where the separatists have been breaking the truce and firing on Ukrainian forces, and you wonder why this incident took place.

Regarding RL's point about Chechnya, the First Chechen War's results: 'Various figures estimate the number of civilian deaths at between 30,000 and 100,000 killed and possibly over 200,000 injured, while more than 500,000 people were displaced by the conflict,' and the Second Chechnya War: 'The exact death toll from this conflict is unknown. Unofficial estimates range from 25,000 to 50,000 dead or missing, mostly civilians.'

Ukrainians are total amateurs compared to Russians in the art of inflicting civilian casualties. Let's hope they don't catch up in proficiency.

With respect fenrir, it is not a War Zone? Have you been there? I have!

Even if you have not, you will have seen from the biased media reporting that civilian life goes on. That means that civilians are driving to work, collecting children from school and moving goods and supplies around in vehicles!

There is no justifiable reason for opening fire on a minibus unless it is clearly transporting an armed threat or its occupants have already opened fire!

TolkoRaz
01-07-2014, 18:38
Besides, if I took your side on how the matters are viewed in Ukraine, I would be screaming about betrayal and demanding why the Russian troops are not in Kiev yet... The inconsistency is glaring. The zugwang is merciless. The end result will be devastating.

Well, you might do that, but I am not! I think I am slightly more 'balanced' than you, better informed than you so therefore better understand the situation than you! ;)

Russian Lad
01-07-2014, 18:54
I think I am slightly more 'balanced' than you, better informed than you so therefore better understand the situation than you!

Сам себя не похвалишь... :rolleyes: Let's see what you will be telling me in 2-3 years.

TolkoRaz
01-07-2014, 21:54
Сам себя не похвалишь... :rolleyes: Let's see what you will be telling me in 2-3 years.

Договорились! :) Назначим дату через три года и сравним записи и прогнозы! Надеюсь, тебе доставляет удовольствие ставить на трехногую лошадь! ;)

Alan65
01-07-2014, 21:57
With respect fenrir, it is not a War Zone? Have you been there? I have!

Even if you have not, you will have seen from the biased media reporting that civilian life goes on. That means that civilians are driving to work, collecting children from school and moving goods and supplies around in vehicles!

There is no justifiable reason for opening fire on a minibus unless it is clearly transporting an armed threat or its occupants have already opened fire!

Tolko...as a Russian...why have you been there?

With regards to civilians being killed...remember this

Korean Air Lines Flight 007 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tell me something Tolko:

Why is my girlfriend and her daughter moving to Copenhagen tomorrow.
Why is my girlfriends sister moving to Italy to get married next week.
Why does Natlee want a British passport for her daughter.
Why does Penka choose to live in Sweden.
Why does VicY choose to live in Hong Kong.
Why are there so many websites with Russian girls looking for a life in the west.
Why are there not websites for Western girls looking to marry Russian guys.
Why do so many Ukrainians want to join the Eu despite all of the EU problems.

So many whys but no answers.

PJB
01-07-2014, 22:04
1. Why would a bunch of old women get on a bus headed for an enemy military base in a region that is so full of gunfire that most civilians are trying to flee away from the fighting?

2. Why would a group of journalists get on the same bus?

3. How would an army know that a bus heading straight for their base is full of unarmed civilians and is not a bomb laden Trojan Horse?

TolkoRaz
01-07-2014, 22:13
Have the separatists used Hostile Vehicles laden with explosives driven by suicide bombers?

No, they are not Islamist extremists, they are insurgents who want to fight another day.

There is absolutely no excuse for the UKR action.

Alan65
01-07-2014, 22:17
Have the separatists used Hostile Vehicles laden with explosives driven by suicide bombers?

No, they are not Islamist extremists, they are insurgents who want to fight another day.

There is absolutely no excuse for the UKR action.

You are a Russian, why were you there?

FatAndy
01-07-2014, 22:21
You are a Russian, why were you there?
Strange question, Alan... PGU never sleeps.:watching::watching:

TolkoRaz
01-07-2014, 22:47
Tolko...as a Russian...why have you been there?

With regards to civilians being killed...remember this

Korean Air Lines Flight 007 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007)

Tell me something Tolko:

Why is my girlfriend and her daughter moving to Copenhagen tomorrow.
Why is my girlfriends sister moving to Italy to get married next week.
Why does Natlee want a British passport for her daughter.
Why does Penka choose to live in Sweden.
Why does VicY choose to live in Hong Kong.
Why are there so many websites with Russian girls looking for a life in the west.
Why are there not websites for Western girls looking to marry Russian guys.
Why do so many Ukrainians want to join the Eu despite all of the EU problems.

So many whys but no answers.

So many questions for which I do not have all of the answers, or even correct ones. I am aware that females from Slavic countries go West, but I am also aware that many Western males & females go East to work and remain - Moscow and this site is a perfect example of that! :book:

As for Vicy, I think she married a man from that part of the World and probably went there on work - it is a Global community now and air travel is easy & affordable.

As for natlee, her child is half British, so why not take up the benefits of having a West European nationality - it will save on visa headaches and fees in the future.

I cannot speak for your family members, but surely you know the reasons for your girlfriend and her sister's choices?

FatAndy
01-07-2014, 23:15
surely you know the reasons for your girlfriend and her sister's choices?
I'm afraid he doesn't, that's why he asks you :)

Alan65
01-07-2014, 23:19
I'm afraid he doesn't, that's why he asks you :)

Actually I do, they can not stand Russian men and their limited mentality.

natlee
01-07-2014, 23:22
Actually I do, they can not stand Russian men and their limited mentality. :nut:

Alan65
01-07-2014, 23:23
So many questions for which I do not have all of the answers, or even correct ones. I am aware that females from Slavic countries go West, but I am also aware that many Western males & females go East to work and remain - Moscow and this site is a perfect example of that! :book:

As for Vicy, I think she married a man from that part of the World and probably went there on work - it is a Global community now and air travel is easy & affordable.

As for natlee, her child is half British, so why not take up the benefits of having a West European nationality - it will save on visa headaches and fees in the future.

I cannot speak for your family members, but surely you know the reasons for your girlfriend and her sister's choices?

In summary...West is best...even VicY went to an ex British colony.

Lets here it from the boys that live in Russia that want their offsprings to be 100% Russian....no British or American passports....just 100% Russian and will send their boys into Russian national service....

The problem is Tolko, and it is simple, you do not have answer to any of these questions and why so many Russians want to move West.

And that my friend is your biggest fear!!!

rubyrussia
01-07-2014, 23:23
Actually I do, they can not stand Russian men and their limited mentality.

Racist! Me thinks you will be very happy at red tape with all that Russia bashing.

Alan65
01-07-2014, 23:28
:nut:

Natlee...if the west is so bad, stop the passport application, in London, we call it putting your money where your mouth is.

Let your daughter just be Russian if Russia is so good...I thought not!!!

You all go on about how great Russia is but you all want an out when required, that is Penka, VicY the whole lot of you!

natlee
01-07-2014, 23:36
The problem is Tolko, and it is simple, you do not have answer to any of these questions and why so many Russians want to move West.

And that my friend is your biggest fear!!! :nut:


Natlee...if the west is so bad, stop the passport application, in London, we call it putting your money where your mouth is.

Let your daughter just be Russian if Russia is so good...I thought not!!!

You all go on about how great Russia is but you all want an out when required, that is Penka, VicY the whole lot of you! I'm sorry, when have I ever said the west is bad and/or Russia is great? :question: I simply 'said' your comment about Russian men was ridiculous, not to mention, um, politically incorrect ;)

Alan65
01-07-2014, 23:42
:nut:

I'm sorry, when have I ever said the west is bad and/or Russia is great? :question: I simply 'said' your comment about Russian men was ridiculous, not to mention, um, politically incorrect ;)

You mention politically correct, take that phrase up with you leaders, this is a bit like Tolko calling the Geneva convention whilst ignoring the Budapest memorandum.

Until Russians respect international norms, please don't quote them to us!

This is one thing I like about Vossy, he doesn't preach his international rights!

rubyrussia
01-07-2014, 23:56
So many questions for which I do not have all of the answers, or even correct ones. I am aware that females from Slavic countries go West, but I am also aware that many Western males & females go East to work and remain - Moscow and this site is a perfect example of that! :book:

As for Vicy, I think she married a man from that part of the World and probably went there on work - it is a Global community now and air travel is easy & affordable.

As for natlee, her child is half British, so why not take up the benefits of having a West European nationality - it will save on visa headaches and fees in the future.

I cannot speak for your family members, but surely you know the reasons for your girlfriend and her sister's choices?

I think the mail order bride thing is a bigger problem in the Ukraine and eastern Europe than it is in Russia now. Besides to add to Tolki's rebuttal, I would say that it is more telling of these men (who in my experience seem to be more often American and sometimes British) who lack such basic social skills or are so dysfunctional back home that would need to find a desperate, poor English language skills girl half way around the world to marry them. The few girls that engage in this now, I think are willing to sacrifice everything, including their dignity to change their life. It's bad on both ends. Regardless, it speaks more volumes about the western men that do this and not so much that Russian men are so horrible.

Also, there is not a big demand for western women for obvious reasons. Western women generally speaking live more comfortably and are happily blissfuly unaware of the rest of the world. I should also point out that western women statically speaking are more likely to be overweight and have a culture of no separation between the sexes. Women should be treated and perceived no differently than men. This contributes to the physically undesirability in my opinion.

I honestly think that at least physically, a Ukrainian / Russian girl is much more likely to be feminine, slimmer, and more attractive than American women. Don't get me wrong, American women also have some very redeeming qualities that I see less often over here, but I think for many, it's already one straw too many.

natlee
02-07-2014, 00:03
You mention politically correct, take that phrase up with you leaders, this is a bit like Tolko calling the Geneva convention whilst ignoring the Budapest memorandum.

Until Russians respect international norms, please don't quote them to us! Have you been drinking? :question:

If not, please have one on me! Make it a large one! :D

rubyrussia
02-07-2014, 00:09
You mention politically correct, take that phrase up with you leaders, this is a bit like Tolko calling the Geneva convention whilst ignoring the Budapest memorandum.

Until Russians respect international norms, please don't quote them to us!

This is one thing I like about Vossy, he doesn't preach his international rights!


Does this mean you're going to hold up the UK or America for being outstanding models of countries that follow international law? :eek::bowdown:

Alan65
02-07-2014, 00:09
Have you been drinking? :question:

If not, please have one on me! Make it a large one! :D

Not yet, but at least alcohol gets me intoxicated rather than propaganda....thank you Nat...what can I order.

natlee
02-07-2014, 00:16
Not yet, but at least alcohol gets me intoxicated rather than propaganda....thank you Nat...what can I order. Anything you like honey - enjoy! ;)

:bedtime: here! :)

FatAndy
02-07-2014, 11:44
Actually I do, they can not stand Russian men and their limited mentality.
My condolences.
Did they ever try to expand their communication circle beyond their family's yard? :suspect:


Racist! Me thinks you will be very happy at red tape with all that Russia bashing.
No, it's internal complexes, but let him. ;) You should know the proverb about a caravan and a dog.

rubyrussia
02-07-2014, 13:17
My condolences.
Did they ever try to expand their communication circle beyond their family's yard? :suspect:


No, it's internal complexes, but let him. ;) You should know the proverb about a caravan and a dog.

Yeah.... I know that proverb! Its a good one. Poost' layat' ))))

Russian Lad
02-07-2014, 14:59
Договорились! Назначим дату через три года и сравним записи и прогнозы! Надеюсь, тебе доставляет удовольствие ставить на трехногую лошадь!

Sure.:) Your horse has clay legs and the character of a hyena.:)


Besides to add to Tolki's rebuttal, I would say that it is more telling of these men (who in my experience seem to be more often American and sometimes British) who lack such basic social skills or are so dysfunctional back home that would need to find a desperate, poor English language skills girl half way around the world to marry them. The few girls that engage in this now, I think are willing to sacrifice everything, including their dignity to change their life. It's bad on both ends. Regardless, it speaks more volumes about the western men that do this and not so much that Russian men are so horrible.

This market is expanding rapidly, women don't care about politics, they always vote with their pussy for what they think is the best - there is a steady increase of Russian brides and I hope for an avalanche of them in the near future, when the Russian economy is inevitably hit by the wave of sanctions and begins to crumble (not that there is a lot to crumble anyway). And don't worry, they learn the language quickly. I have to confess I had some little moral issues about this business just half a year ago, I have zero now, moreover, I think it is my moral duty and even a way of protest against this hyena horse to give these women a chance for a better future, now only a few clicks away from them.

rubyrussia
02-07-2014, 22:26
This market is expanding rapidly, women don't care about politics, they always vote with their pussy for what they think is the best - there is a steady increase of Russian brides and I hope for an avalanche of them in the near future, when the Russian economy is inevitably hit by the wave of sanctions and begins to crumble (not that there is a lot to crumble anyway). And don't worry, they learn the language quickly. I have to confess I had some little moral issues about this business just half a year ago, I have zero now, moreover, I think it is my moral duty and even a way of protest against this hyena horse to give these women a chance for a better future, now only a few clicks away from them.

What little moral issues did you have, and why do you have zero now? What changed for you???

Russian Lad
02-07-2014, 23:24
What little moral issues did you have, and why do you have zero now? What changed for you???

As a Russian I sometimes had second thoughts about letting Russian women date foreigners, maybe it was just a property feeling every male has to a certain extent, extrapolated globally.
Right now I have no such feeling at all, however little it was. Everything has changed. What exactly - look for the clues in my other posts. If you live in Russia, maybe you have noticed...errrr.... those not exactly little changes as well. You could not have possibly missed them - even the size of the country is different now. :10293:

TolkoRaz
02-07-2014, 23:39
As a Russian I sometimes had second thoughts about letting Russian women date foreigners, maybe it was just a property feeling every male has to a certain extent, extrapolated globally.
Right now I have no such feeling at all, however little it was. Everything has changed. What exactly - look for the clues in my other posts. If you live in Russia, maybe you have noticed...errrr.... those not exactly little changes as well. You could not have possibly missed them - even the size of the country is different now. :10293:

RusskiLad, for years you were involved in managing a Russian Bride export site, so I do not think your 'new' feelings are that 'new'. You traded Russia's greatest export to line your pockets!

Russian Lad
02-07-2014, 23:46
RusskiLad, for years you were involved in managing a Russian Bride export site, so I do not think your 'new' feelings are that 'new'. You traded Russia's greatest export to line your pockets!

I received zero money from it, for various reasons (you have to be more cautious and less trusting when doing deals with the Brits than I really realized it back then, let's put it this way). This little feeling wasn't new, I had it all along. What is new, I don't have this feeling now and will be doing it with 100% clear conscience and with dogged determination when I launch my own site in 2-3 months. Try to follow the conversation.:)

TolkoRaz
02-07-2014, 23:51
I received zero money from it, for various reasons. This little feeling wasn't new, I felt it all along. What is new, I don't feel it now and will be doing it with 100% clear conscience and with dogged determination when I launch my own site in 2-3 months. Try to follow the conversation.:)

You are such a charitable young man :) I assume that you will not be financially gaining from the new export venture?

RusskiLad, because of your charitable disposition, you are destined for sainthood.

Where is Rusmeister when he is needed? I am sure he could have a word in the appropriate ear! ;)

Russian Lad
02-07-2014, 23:55
You are such a charitable young man I assume that you will not be financially gaining from the new export venture?

RusskiLad, because of your charitable disposition, you are destined for sainthood.

I didn't say I am not planning to gain any cash from it. It will be free for a while to gain audience though, maybe for like half a year. You will have a chance to find a bride for free during this period.:) If the programmers do it right, the site will have a relatively unique and convenient communication system. Needless to say, all the ladies will be genuine, from search results and advertisement campaigns. Most dating sites in this niche have fake ladies, all stunners but fake.The first sign of a cheating dating site - all ladies are young, stunning and have impeccable, studio-quality photos. That's probably 90% of the whole Russian and Ukrainian dating market.

TolkoRaz
02-07-2014, 23:58
I didn't say I am not planning to gain any cash from it. It will be free for a while to gain audience though, maybe for like half a year. You will have a chance to find a bride for free during this period.:)

Thanks, pick me a good one! But I probably do not have the much sought after passport! ;)

Russian Lad
03-07-2014, 00:04
Thanks, pick me a good one! But I probably do not have the much sought after passport!

Well, you will have to do the picking and the talking yourself, unless you pay me to represent your matrimonial interests on the site and at dates, with an appropriate photo and some profile info.:)