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Benedikt
17-05-2014, 15:03
http://news.yahoo.com/republican-leaders-block-us-immigration-measure-201549527.html

this was supposed to be,amongst others, for immigrants who live there illegally but serve in the army.
you can die for that country but they don't want you to live there.
some place...

rusmeister
17-05-2014, 18:16
http://news.yahoo.com/republican-leaders-block-us-immigration-measure-201549527.html

this was supposed to be,amongst others, for immigrants who live there illegally but serve in the army.
you can die for that country but they don't want you to live there.
some place...

Allowing foreigners in to serve in the Imperial Army was how Rome fell. SPQR was the cheap-and-easy way to Roman citizenship.

The failure to control immigration - for whatever reasons, however well-intended or even good - will be a major - though hardly primary - factor in the general collapse of the United States.

I always used to think that Rome fell due to barbarian invasions from the outside - that's what our schools teach - and found out it wasn't true while reading Hilaire Belloc. I fact-checked - and lo and behold, Belloc was right. Turns out that the Goths and others legally (or otherwise) immigrated and got themselves established as Roman legions. Then in the tussles over who-gets-to-be-the-next-emperor, Odoacer simply did what all generals who thought they had a chance did, as a head of a Roman army, deposing the incumbent just like other Roman generals before him.

Well, they wanted their useless government schools and got them, and taught less and less history, until people simply can't learn from history because they hardly know any, only select bits and pieces practically disconnected to and irrelevant to one another.

Russian Lad
17-05-2014, 18:24
The failure to control immigration - for whatever reasons, however well-intended or even good - will be a major - though hardly primary - factor in the general collapse of the United States.

I always used to think that Rome fell due to barbarian invasions from the outside - that's what our schools teach - and found out it wasn't true while reading Hilaire Belloc. I fact-checked - and lo and behold, Belloc was right. Turns out that the Goths and others legally (or otherwise) immigrated and got themselves established as Roman legions. Then in the tussles over who-gets-to-be-the-next-emperor, Odoacer simply did what all generals who thought they had a chance did, as a head of a Roman army, deposing the incumbent just like other Roman generals before him.

Well, they wanted their useless government schools and got them, and taught less and less history, until people simply can't learn from history because they hardly know any, only select bits and pieces practically disconnected to and irrelevant to one another.

To me it sounds like you are describing Russia. The US can and will fail eventually, but there is no shortage of foolish states making stupid mistakes and in utter contempt of their human capital, it seems. While they abound, the US will prosper.

rusmeister
17-05-2014, 19:34
To me it sounds like you are describing Russia. The US can and will fail eventually, but there is no shortage of foolish states making stupid mistakes and in utter contempt of their human capital, it seems. While they abound, the US will prosper.

No, the prosperity of the US will not depend on the errors of other nations, but on whether it corrects its own prime error - that of having rejected God. A useless thing to say to you at this point, perhaps, but what I see to be true. It was a God-fearing nation that could support the Geneva Convention and produce the Marshall Plan and attaining the admiration of the world, and it was a God-abandoning one that could approve of torturing prisoners and the deserved derision of the world.

Russian Lad
17-05-2014, 20:33
but on whether it corrects its own prime error - that of having rejected God.

As opposed to, say, Russia? What an utter and ridiculous nonsense. These priests of yours, the whole bunch works for FSB, I am now 50000% sure of it, enjoys all its perks including FSO, the state financial support and doing profitable business. You are a funny man, I am not laughing though, seeing that you have been fooling yourself for the best part of your life. I feel pity, man. You are an intellectually developed person, you could have done much better than that.

Benedikt
17-05-2014, 20:41
I always used to think that Rome fell due to barbarian invasions from the outside - that's what our schools teach - and found out it wasn't true while reading Hilaire Belloc. I fact-checked - and lo and behold, Belloc was right. Turns out that the Goths and others legally (or otherwise) immigrated and got themselves established as Roman legions. Then in the tussles over who-gets-to-be-the-next-emperor, Odoacer simply did what all generals who thought they had a chance did, as a head of a Roman army, deposing the incumbent just like other Roman generals before him.



because the Romans got to fat and lazy, and fewer and fewer kids who served the army. and that was the reason so many foreigners were -allowed- to serve. well, it got them in the end indeed.

rusmeister
17-05-2014, 23:28
I always used to think that Rome fell due to barbarian invasions from the outside - that's what our schools teach - and found out it wasn't true while reading Hilaire Belloc. I fact-checked - and lo and behold, Belloc was right. Turns out that the Goths and others legally (or otherwise) immigrated and got themselves established as Roman legions. Then in the tussles over who-gets-to-be-the-next-emperor, Odoacer simply did what all generals who thought they had a chance did, as a head of a Roman army, deposing the incumbent just like other Roman generals before him.



because the Romans got to fat and lazy, and fewer and fewer kids who served the army. and that was the reason so many foreigners were -allowed- to serve. well, it got them in the end indeed.
I do think that to be part of the picture, yes.

rusmeister
17-05-2014, 23:32
As opposed to, say, Russia? What an utter and ridiculous nonsense. These priests of yours, the whole bunch works for FSB, I am now 50000% sure of it, enjoys all its perks including FSO, the state financial support and doing profitable business. You are a funny man, I am not laughing though, seeing that you have been fooling yourself for the best part of your life. I feel pity, man. You are an intellectually developed person, you could have done much better than that.

Ah, how quickly 70 years of state-sponsored atheism is forgotten! With Butovo, the GULAG, collectivization, and all the rest. Never happened, right? That was your Golden Age, RL! Your view had its big chance, and it couldn't even last one century.

Russian Lad
17-05-2014, 23:48
Ah, how quickly 70 years of state-sponsored atheism is forgotten! With Butovo, the GULAG, collectivization, and all the rest. Never happened, right? That was your Golden Age, RL! Your view had its big chance, and it couldn't even last one century.

There was also the first man to space, electrification and industrialization of the country, rather rich culture, etc. Most of the nazi were Christians. Those who were burning and killing each other in Odessa, I am sure most of them had crosses on their necks. The Americans who dropped the nukes on Japan were Christians, just as the ones who have committed a lot of other despicable atrocities. It is a cheap argument on your part, once again. So cheap I feel revulsion, in fact.
Besides, I am an atheist (an agnostic, in fact), but I have never been a communist. There are millions of atheists/agnostics in purely capitalist countries, so once again, not sure what you meant here.

rusmeister
18-05-2014, 06:02
There was also the first man to space, electrification and industrialization of the country, rather rich culture, etc. Most of the nazi were Christians. Those who were burning and killing each other in Odessa, I am sure most of them had crosses on their necks. The Americans who dropped the nukes on Japan were Christians, just as the ones who have committed a lot of other despicable atrocities. It is a cheap argument on your part, once again. So cheap I feel revulsion, in fact.
Besides, I am an atheist (an agnostic, in fact), but I have never been a communist. There are millions of atheists/agnostics in purely capitalist countries, so once again, not sure what you meant here.

That IS what I mean. That in now large numbers, they have turned away from God.
Most Nazis were NOT practicing Christians. At the very best, large numbers of people in the Wehrmacht wore crosses. It is a wild opposite of the truth to try to pin the Nazi evils on Christian faith. Even if you found nominal Christians at the heart of an evil, you would also find that their ostensible faith had no impact at all on their daily lives (assuming you wanted to find the complete truth).

I don't think bombing an enemy country that started a war with you and refuses to surrender to be particularly un-Christian. But here you are grasping on to an event that most people involved really didn't know the extent of, with NO intent to do great evil, but with a strong will to end a horrible war, and so once again we find that Christian faith is NOT at the heart of great evil. You ignore the much larger fact that a prime reason the largely pagan Japanese would not surrender was that they really didn't understand that they were dealing with a Christian nation. They thought they were dealing with people as ruthless with captured and defeated enemies as they themselves were, and shock at good treatment was widely reported among POWs and a major factor in healing the enmity and (unlike the atheist USSR) a very short period of occupation (5 years) and ultimate alliance with their former enemies. East Germany, by contrast, remained an occupied place that people wanted to escape from right up to the fall of the Berlin Wall.

CS Lewis once said, "We treat God as the police do a suspect. Anything he says or does can be used against him." But here it's not even anything He did, or his (sincere) followers, but people who didn't really follow Him, crosses or not.

If you read CS Lewis's autobiographical materials (esp "Surprised by Joy") you would discover that he railed and struggled against Christian faith for years before finally giving up and converting.

Russian Lad
18-05-2014, 06:05
It is a wild opposite of the truth to try to pin the Nazi evils on Christian faith.

I am not putting any blame on them actually. I am just saying in this case that Christians are just as capable of atrocities as non-Christians. They call themselves Christians, wear a cross, pray and attend a church every now and then, follow at least some Christian rituals - to me they are Christians.


with NO intent to do great evil, but with a strong will to end a horrible war, and so once again we find that Christian faith is NOT at the heart of great evil. You ignore the much larger fact that a prime reason the largely pagan Japanese would not surrender was that they really didn't understand that they were dealing with a Christian nation. They thought they were dealing with people as ruthless with captured and defeated enemies as they themselves were, and shock at good treatment was widely reported among POWs and a major factor in healing the enmity and (unlike the atheist USSR) a very short period of occupation (5 years) and ultimate alliance with their former enemies.

That's the most laughable explanation of this nuking event I have ever come across. You have really twisted your brains to come up with this one.


East Germany, by contrast, remained an occupied place that people wanted to escape from right up to the fall of the Berlin Wall.

To some extent it may be true, to some - exaggerated a bit. I lived in the Czechoslovakia for 5 years (1980-1985), we co-existed side by side rather peacefully, they actually had a much better life compared to the USSR back then. A lot of goods and diverse food in the shops, etc. But again, my point is that christians can be just as vicious as atheists, buddhists, muslims, etc.

Suuryaa
18-05-2014, 13:49
But again, my point is that christians can be just as vicious as atheists, buddhists, muslims, etc.

I also agree. All people have the same degree of goodness or evil regardless of their religion or being atheists.

Fantastika
18-05-2014, 18:43
No, the prosperity of the US will not depend on the errors of other nations, but on whether it corrects its own prime error - that of having rejected God. ... It was a God-fearing nation that could support the Geneva Convention and produce the Marshall Plan and attaining the admiration of the world, and it was a God-abandoning one that could approve of torturing prisoners and the deserved derision of the world.

Also, Christians led the charge to free the slaves, in the Civil War, and led the charge to grant more civil rights in the 1960's, along with Jews. At the founding of the nation, in 1776, the Declaration of Independence, is replete with references to God - "God grants these inalienable rights," (God - not man, not government). And so are all the documents and discussions leading to the US Constitution, continuing with presidents thanking God throughout the 1800's.

Maybe RL would understand if one says the USA is rejecting traditional Christian morality, instead of rejecting God. But he confuses morality with "values," as do most Americans and especially politicians: "I'm running on family values, blah, blah, blah."

Fantastika
18-05-2014, 18:57
Most of the nazi were Christians.

Not really. Hitler was a cult figure. He did not reject Jesus, he replaced Jesus. The Swastika replaced the Cross.

For sure, the society continued with aspects of traditional Christian morality, marriage, church, rules like "do not steal," but Hitler's creed, Hitler's word, overrode everything. Nowhere in the Bible does it say to exterminate Jews.


Those who were burning and killing each other in Odessa, I am sure most of them had crosses on their necks. The Americans who dropped the nukes on Japan were Christians, just as the ones who have committed a lot of other despicable atrocities.

The Odessa arsonists have probably never seen the inside of a church in their lives, and use bibles for toilet paper. Hiroshima, and then Nagasaki were done because the alternative would be the deaths of 10x as many, in an invasion where the Nipponese would have fought on to the last man. Sometimes in life, one has to make a gruesome, horrific ethical choice: shall 200,000 die, or 2,000,000?


Besides, I am an atheist (an agnostic, in fact), but I have never been a communist. There are millions of atheists/agnostics in purely capitalist countries, so once again, not sure what you meant here.

You're an atheist, but you follow Christian morality - do not steal, do not kill, etc., right?

rusmeister
18-05-2014, 19:08
I also agree. All people have the same degree of goodness or evil regardless of their religion or being atheists.

What you are trying to say here is that all people are capable of good and evil. No argument. But if you say that all people behave equally well - or badly - then you are obviously wrong. There is an enormous gap between Mother Theresa and Stalin or Chikatilo. And the Japanese and Germans were demonstrably far more cruel to prisoners of war than the US was. There is no difficulty in demonstrating that some people lived saintly lives and others desperately wicked ones.

And there can be no doubt that their various worldviews had everything to do with this. To say that they don't is ignorant in the extreme.

rusmeister
18-05-2014, 19:14
I am not putting any blame on them actually. I am just saying in this case that Christians are just as capable of atrocities as non-Christians. They call themselves Christians, wear a cross, pray and attend a church every now and then, follow at least some Christian rituals - to me they are Christians.

Roght. You want to pin crimes of mafiosi, criminals and others that obviously do NOT believe that they need to change their lives and live according to the teachings of Christ and His Church on people who do. So much for any justice in your thought. End of conversation.



To some extent it may be true, to some - exaggerated a bit. I lived in the Czechoslovakia for 5 years (1980-1985), we co-existed side by side rather peacefully, they actually had a much better life compared to the USSR back then. A lot of goods and diverse food in the shops, etc. But again, my point is that christians can be just as vicious as atheists, buddhists, muslims, etc.

CAN be, yes. Always are in fact, no. Some are and some aren't. And if you don't ask what their religion teaches and admit that it is not a religion's fault if followers in name only do not follow the teachings, then you are just intellectually dishonest.

Suuryaa
18-05-2014, 19:19
There is no difficulty in demonstrating that some people lived saintly lives and others desperately wicked ones.

And both types can be found among people of all the religions as well as atheists.

Russian Lad
18-05-2014, 19:38
Again, Rus, Christians like you are very rare, in the sense of knowledge and thought, most Christians are just regular folks who have held a Bible once in their entire life and have read just a couple of pages of it, if any. I have told you this already. You are a tiny minority within your own huge group. You need to clearly realize that to understand what I mean. Even if you have this alleged truth and moral superiority over atheists, even if we assume that (I think even this assumption is false though), most Christians don't. But they are still Christians.

rusmeister
18-05-2014, 23:01
And both types can be found among people of all the religions as well as atheists.

Yes. But remarkably few saints were found among the Japanese dealing with American prisoners and quite a few wicked ones. You are trying to evade my point that certain cultures DID produce general stereotypes which WERE true for most, and among the societies which rejected God the evils were far more terrible than among the ones which acknowledged Him.

Suuryaa
18-05-2014, 23:23
Yes. But remarkably few saints were found among the Japanese dealing with American prisoners and quite a few wicked ones. You are trying to evade my point that certain cultures DID produce general stereotypes which WERE true for most, and among the societies which rejected God the evils were far more terribe than among the ones which acknowledged Him.

In our time, all the societies have rejected God. They are only nominally religious.

rusmeister
18-05-2014, 23:53
Again, Rus, Christians like you are very rare, in the sense of knowledge and thought, most Christians are just regular folks who have held a Bible once in their entire life and have read just a couple of pages of it, if any. I have told you this already. You are a tiny minority within your own huge group. You need to clearly realize that to understand what I mean. Even if you have this alleged truth and moral superiority over atheists, even if we assume that (I think even this assumption is false though), most Christians don't. But they are still Christians.

The heart of the trouble, as I see it, is that you wish to equate what the Church teaches, as well as the various divisions from it and what they have in common, to what anyone who calls themself a Christian does. As soon as we ask what ANY traditional form of Christianity teaches about how a Christian should be, we find an absolute gap between those teachings and what the Nazis did. The thing to blame is NOT their acceptance of Christian faith and practice, but rather their rejection of it.
So whenever I sin, I am, in that moment, not a Christian, whatever I may call myself in general.

rusmeister
18-05-2014, 23:55
In our time, all the societies have rejected God. They are only nominally religious.

I agree. That's what makes this an especially terrible time. If it was bad when only a couple of societies did, and brought war to the world, how much worse will it be now?

Russian Lad
19-05-2014, 00:55
The heart of the trouble, as I see it, is that you wish to equate what the Church teaches, as well as the various divisions from it and what they have in common, to what anyone who calls themself a Christian does. As soon as we ask what ANY traditional form of Christianity teaches about how a Christian should be, we find an absolute gap between those teachings and what the Nazis did. The thing to blame is NOT their acceptance of Christian faith and practice, but rather their rejection of it.

The same logic is applied by atheists/communists when they are reminded about their multiple sins. So, in this respect I don't see any difference, neither in theory nor in practice.

rusmeister
19-05-2014, 12:07
The same logic is applied by atheists/communists when they are reminded about their multiple sins. So, in this respect I don't see any difference, neither in theory nor in practice.

But there IS no "Church of Atheism", an authority that teaches that atheists ought to do good and not evil. There IS an authority that can rebuke the Christian, and atheists have no such thing.

In the case of even the nominal Christian, his own religion rebukes him. His evils are done IN SPITE OF his Church's teachings. But the evils of atheist states arise DIRECTLY from their denial of God, and there is no higher authority to appeal to if the state decides to do evil. Their evils are logically committed BECAUSE of their atheism.

Russian Lad
19-05-2014, 13:47
But there IS no "Church of Atheism", an authority that teaches that atheists ought to do good and not evil. There IS an authority that can rebuke the Christian, and atheists have no such thing.

In the case of even the nominal Christian, his own religion rebukes him. His evils are done IN SPITE OF his Church's teachings. But the evils of atheist states arise DIRECTLY from their denial of God, and there is no higher authority to appeal to if the state decides to do evil. Their evils are logically committed BECAUSE of their atheism.

You probably didn't read what I wrote above. What's the use of the institution among wide masses if it is just nominal? Close to zero. Besides, I feel like laughing when you mention the institution and its somehow high grounds. It is just a ZAO, at least here.
Besides, the most horrifying and despicable atrocities are always committed with the justification of a higher purpose that is allegedly pursued. Such purposes are prevalent both among christians and atheists. There were hardly many atheists just one hundred years ago - the wars still were waged, people were killed, women were raped. Historically your line of reasoning is utter nonsense.

rusmeister
19-05-2014, 17:44
You probably didn't read what I wrote above. What's the use of the institution among wide masses if it is just nominal? Close to zero. Besides, I feel like laughing when you mention the institution and its somehow high grounds. It is just a ZAO, at least here.
Besides, the most horrifying and despicable atrocities are always committed with the justification of a higher purpose that is allegedly pursued. Such purposes are prevalent both among christians and atheists. There were hardly many atheists just one hundred years ago - the wars still were waged, people were killed, women were raped. Historically your line of reasoning is utter nonsense.

I feel like I'm mostly responding for fence-sitters, not for you so much. You're too busy laughing. Frankly, I don't get any joy or cheer out of your worldview at all. What joy can I get out of the idea that death is a complete undoing of my self, of everything I ever strived for, and a final and eternal separation from my loved ones? I think that when you come to that yourself, you won't be laughing any more.
I find the GULAG, Butovo, the Killing Fields of Cambodia, the Holocaust and Hitler's Final Solution to be far more horrifying and despicable even than the worst depradations of the Crusades and the Inquisition. You can keep trying to tell yourself that the Nazis were Christians, but can convince no one but yourself, and yourself only because you WANT to be convinced of a manifest falsehood.

The Institution is NOT just nominal. In countries where the faith is legal and safe to practice, most tend to become nominal sooner or later. But the Institution is far more than they. They are hardly part of the Institution. Then you turn and try to cast the Institution as the hierarchs, the Patriarch and so on. But the Institution is more than they. And not nearly as many hierarchs are as corrupt as you imagine. On every front you exaggerate. "Most evils were done by Christians, the Nazis were Christians, only the actions of nominal Christians count, most Christians are wildly hypocritical, all hierarchs are conniving scum, etc etc." it's too bad to be true. Your twisted view of the Church simply cannot be true, and anyone with any intellectual honesty would have to admit that.

For my part, I do not say that all atheists are bad, and cheerfully admit that some are very good, moralistic andeven selfless people. But it is certain that the atheist regimes that established themselves in the twentieth century unleashed horrors that make the constant atheist complaints about the Middle Ages - half a millennium ago - about the Crusades, Indulgences, Inquisition and Galileo - look very small indeed. Nations that reject God definitely do evil on great scales, greater than any crusade or jihad ever did.

Russian Lad
19-05-2014, 18:06
What joy can I get out of the idea that death is a complete undoing of my self, of everything I ever strived for, and a final and eternal separation from my loved ones?

No joy at all. But you have had the joy of living. Unlike the other 1999999 sperms that were present in that single ejaculation that you came from and unlike billions of sperms in other ejaculations. Unlike you, they have never known the joy of being here, tasting food, touching women, enjoying the view of a blossoming garden and the songs of nightingales. You came from nothing, you are going to nothing. From dust to dust (ref.: Ecclesiastes).


You can keep trying to tell yourself that the Nazis were Christians, but can convince no one but yourself, and yourself only because you WANT to be convinced of a manifest falsehood.

It is you who are full of falsehoods. Only 5% of the Nazi were not Christians. From Wiki:


In 1933, prior to the annexation of Austria into Germany, the Christian population of Germany was around 67% Protestant and 33% Catholic.[1] A German census in May 1939, completed more than six years into the Nazi era[2] and incorporating the annexation of mostly Catholic Austria into Germany, indicates that 54% of Germans considered themselves Protestant, (including non-denominational Christians) and 40% considered themselves Catholic, with only with only 3.5% identifying as "gottgläubig" (lit. "believers in god", a non-denominational nazified outlook on god beliefs, often described as predominately based on creationist and deistic views[3]) and 1.5% non-religious.


"Most evils were done by Christians, the Nazis were Christians, only the actions of nominal Christians count, most Christians are wildly hypocritical, all hierarchs are conniving scum, etc etc." it's too bad to be true.

Are you unable to read anymore??? I have repeatedly said that I don't think either christians or atheists have a superior moral ground and are capable of more or less atrocities.


But it is certain that the atheist regimes that established themselves in the twentieth century unleashed horrors that make the constant atheist complaints about the Middle Ages - half a millennium ago - about the Crusades, Indulgences, Inquisition and Galileo - look very small indeed. Nations that reject God definitely do evil on great scales, greater than any crusade or jihad ever did.

It is certain only in your head, not in reality. There were all sorts of cruelties in the Middle Ages you are referring to. If they murdered less people (I am not sure about that though, but let's assume this), it is only because the tools of murder were much less sophisticated.

bydand
19-05-2014, 19:12
If they murdered less people (I am not sure about that though, but let's assume this), it is only because the tools of murder were much less sophisticated.

Also, there were less people available to kill then.;)

About 200 to 300 million two thousand years ago.

TolkoRaz
19-05-2014, 22:19
Also, there were less people available to kill then.;)

About 200 to 300 million two thousand years ago.

Less crazy killers too! ;)

bydand
19-05-2014, 22:30
Less crazy killers too! ;)

A good offence is the best defense, eh?

TolkoRaz
19-05-2014, 23:14
You are correct, the best defence is offence!

Take the fight to the enemy! ;)

rusmeister
20-05-2014, 00:23
No joy at all. But you have had the joy of living. Unlike the other 1999999 sperms that were present in that single ejaculation that you came from and unlike billions of sperms in other ejaculations. Unlike you, they have never known the joy of being here, tasting food, touching women, enjoying the view of a blossoming garden and the songs of nightingales. You came from nothing, you are going to nothing. From dust to dust (ref.: Ecclesiastes).

What in the hell does that matter one second after you are dead?
You yoursef have admitted that it means nothing. End of your appreciation of your life after your own death.

Suuryaa
20-05-2014, 21:50
I agree. That's what makes this an especially terrible time. If it was bad when only a couple of societies did, and brought war to the world, how much worse will it be now?

I guess we will live to see it.

Fantastika
21-05-2014, 02:28
Again, Rus, Christians like you are very rare, in the sense of knowledge and thought, most Christians are just regular folks who have held a Bible once in their entire life and have read just a couple of pages of it, if any. I have told you this already. You are a tiny minority within your own huge group.

I don't have to go to church and read a bible in order to subscribe to Christian morality. I was in the church once in the last year, on Christmas Eve, because I wanted to hear their great choir sing Christmas songs. All of my friends and neighbors mostly also adhere to Christian morality, so there is more trust, honesty and fairness, etc., than among people who don't believe in anything.

Christian morality underlies Western and Orthodox (Eastern) civilization. If you dispute this, then pray tell, what are the foundations of our civilizations?


You need to clearly realize that to understand what I mean.

If that's not a condescending statement , what is?



Even if you have this alleged truth and moral superiority over atheists, even if we assume that (I think even this assumption is false though), most Christians don't. But they are still Christians.

"Moral superiority" is a cliche. The person wielding the phrase is usually trying to justify his own anti-social actions.

Christians did not bomb the World Trade Center. Christians did not kill schoolchildren in Beslan.

You can go to thereligionofpeace.com to find the real problem, today, instead of delving into history to create a scenario.

Germans did not support Hitler as Christians, they supported him as Nazi's. Nazism replaced Christianity, as Adolf replaced Christ, in the Nazi-era in Germany.

One has to go back a couple of hundred years to find Christians acting like the savages you claim. The 1500's was a different world. The Christian group had a right to survive, yes, or they had the instinct to survive, as you will. In that world, things were a lot more primeval. The law of the jungle prevailed - kill or be killed. The neighboring tribe would kill your tribe's males and kidnap your women, so you did it to them first. Look at the borders of states and countries in a historical atlas - every year they changed, the boundaries continually modified, because every year every group was at odds with all of their neighbors.

This is not the situation in 2014.

Russian Lad
21-05-2014, 03:02
so there is more trust, honesty and fairness, etc., than among people who don't believe in anything.

For some people common human values are enough, others use fairytales as their bonding matter, tastes differ.


If that's not a condescending statement , what is?

It was rather an explanation from a professional in the translation field. You don't think an artificial intellect is needed?


Germans did not support Hitler as Christians, they supported him as Nazi's. Nazism replaced Christianity, as Adolf replaced Christ, in the Nazi-era in Germany.

Are you trying to tell me millions of German Christians publicly and openly rejected their faith in the nazi Germany? Any sources to real documents to prove this fantasy?


Look at the borders of states and countries in a historical atlas - every year they changed, the boundaries continually modified, because every year every group was at odds with all of their neighbors.

This is not the situation in 2014.


No? The borders of Europe were changed by Christians only several weeks ago. Whatever is going on there as an aftermath, the word "peaceful" doesn't come to my mind to describe it. Christians are murdering Christians there now - many of them wear crosses, there are Christian priests on both sides. Are you blind?:)

Fantastika
21-05-2014, 04:25
For some people common human values are enough, others use fairytales as their bonding matter, tastes differ.

I'll ignore the "fairytales" insult. "Common human values"? What are they, and how do they originate? You continue to evade these questions because you don't have a non-religious explanation. And you also haven't explained how Russian civil society, and Western civilization are *not* based on Christian morality. So what are they based on, Mr. Genius?


It was rather an explanation from a professional in the translation field. You don't think an artificial intellect is needed?

Are you getting your threads mixed up? Your comment was your typical Christian-bashing reply, the discussion about translation algorithms was in another thread.


Are you trying to tell me millions of German Christians publicly and openly rejected their faith in the nazi Germany? Any sources to real documents to prove this fantasy?

Wow. You've never seen a picture, a photograph, of the Nuremberg or Berlin rallies? There are 1,500,000 Germans in the city square. Are they gathered to hear the Pope? No, they are gathered to hear Herr Hitler. Are they all gathered under the Christian Cross? No, they are gathered under the NAZI swastika.


No? The borders of Europe were changed by Christians only several weeks ago. ... Christians are murdering Christians there now - many of them wear crosses, there are Christian priests on both sides. Are you blind?:)

Good God, you think all badness in the whole world is the fault of Christianity? The borders were changed once in the past 50 years, not *continually* as in the past, when survival was a daily problem, not like today.

So when a thug murders someone, and he's wearing a Christian Cross earring, you assume that he received this impetus to murder from some pastor, even though he and the Kiev arsonists never entered a church in their lives? Jesus wept (for your lack of understanding).

What's with the gratuitous insults, in every message, like "Are you blind?" I could say "didn't someone put enough your bowl today? or "anyone with a brain bigger than a pea should realize" or "what's it like to be a moron?" but the problem with that is that the poster then loses all credibility - he feels compelled not only to state the truthъ as he sees it, but to denigrate and insult anyone who disagrees with His Truthъ.

Russian Lad
21-05-2014, 11:03
I'll ignore the "fairytales" insult.

It is not an insult, it is my private opinion. You engage in a debate with seasoned posters here, learn how to take the heat, young lady.:)


You continue to evade these questions because you don't have a non-religious explanation.

I am not asking you who created your God.:) How they originated - I have told you repeatedly my opinion is it is based on the survival of species, not all of it, but most of it.


Are you getting your threads mixed up? Your comment was your typical Christian-bashing reply, the discussion about translation algorithms was in another thread.

Ok, provide fuller quotes next time, I don't memorize everything I write here.


Wow. You've never seen a picture, a photograph, of the Nuremberg or Berlin rallies? There are 1,500,000 Germans in the city square. Are they gathered to hear the Pope? No, they are gathered to hear Herr Hitler. Are they all gathered under the Christian Cross? No, they are gathered under the NAZI swastika.

What do you find out of the ordinary? Hitler was the country leader, so they listened. I am sure many still attended their churches on Sunday, too.


Good God, you think all badness in the whole world is the fault of Christianity?

No, not at all.


What's with the gratuitous insults, in every message, like "Are you blind?" I could say "didn't someone put enough your bowl today? or "anyone with a brain bigger than a pea should realize" or "what's it like to be a moron?" but the problem with that is that the poster then loses all credibility - he feels compelled not only to state the truthъ as he sees it, but to denigrate and insult anyone who disagrees with His Truthъ.

I asked this because sometimes your are trying to deny the obvious. Even Rusmeister tries to be more subtle, in his own ways.:) I don't have my private Truth, I see the world around me and perceive it/react to it to the best of my ability. Sometimes I change my opinions on certain matters, too, if I get more facts supporting the other point of view.

bydand
21-05-2014, 11:41
What's with the gratuitous insults, in every message, like "Are you blind?" I could say "didn't someone put enough your bowl today? or "anyone with a brain bigger than a pea should realize" or "what's it like to be a moron?" but the problem with that is that the poster then loses all credibility - he feels compelled not only to state the truthъ as he sees it, but to denigrate and insult anyone who disagrees with His Truthъ.



Didn't someone leave enough in your bowl today? :lovepot:

Obama did not win a single state where it was required to show photo ID.

:9456:


Hypocrite.:mooooh: