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rusmeister
07-02-2014, 09:43
Mothers are a religious thing. They are the one thing that people of any belief can recognize are - or ought to be - sacred. They are the one basis on which a non-believer can understand the feelings of a believer when the thing they hold sacred is profaned.

One need not speak of ANY specific person's mother to speak about mothers in general. All of the issues connected with "Pussy Riot", the profanation of churches, can be grasped by anyone who is insulted if their mother is attacked.

Capman
09-02-2014, 14:56
Hello rusmeister,

I have absolutely no debate skills, and after reading a great number of posts in these forums, I understand that I am far less educated than the majority here including yourself. At any rate I agree with your connection of Mother and Church, but I honestly don't think any "non-believer" is going to fully appreciate this connection. I think it is because they don't go to church or never been. To them it is just a building where the "brainwashed" go and congregate. For me, the church is also just a building, what is important and sacred is what is shared, taught, felt and the people that belong to it. The bride of Christ.
I can only speak in regards to the U.S. but a strong distaste for Christianity and that way of life is growing there. A lot of it is because of the media only covering the completely misguided and deranged churches that claim to be Christian. There are several other reasons I've seen but my post would be lengthy.

rusmeister
09-02-2014, 16:02
Hello rusmeister,

I have absolutely no debate skills, and after reading a great number of posts in these forums, I understand that I am far less educated than the majority here including yourself. At any rate I agree with your connection of Mother and Church, but I honestly don't think any "non-believer" is going to fully appreciate this connection. I think it is because they don't go to church or never been. To them it is just a building where the "brainwashed" go and congregate. For me, the church is also just a building, what is important and sacred is what is shared, taught, felt and the people that belong to it. The bride of Christ.
I can only speak in regards to the U.S. but a strong distaste for Christianity and that way of life is growing there. A lot of it is because of the media only covering the completely misguided and deranged churches that claim to be Christian. There are several other reasons I've seen but my post would be lengthy.
Thanks, Cap.
I think there ARE intelligent non-believers; I'll even insist that there are, though frankly, they show themselves much more rarely than I'd like. We hear mostly from the noisy ones that *know* already and don't want to hear anything that would suggest that what they oppose is slightly more complex than they have imagined. So yes, you're right, of course. This sort of thing is for fence-sitters, people who ARE willing to give us a fair shake, and to help THEM understand what desecration is in emotional terms.

Orthodox DON'T "worship" church buildings, but we DO see them to be consecrated places; this could be compared, again, to graves. People don't worship graves, but they do hold them to be special, to represent what they love dearest, and so smearing them in feces or whatever is not insignificant; it DOES bother the person who really WOULD fall at Christ's feet and kiss them just as it bothers the person who would be upset at the desecration of the grave, which represents their mother's memory, who they would gladly fling their arms around if they could.

FTR, I was raised Baptist, seriously practiced it as an older teen for several years, then "wandered the desert" as a lazy agnostic and skeptic for twenty adult years before CS Lewis dragged me back to faith. Why Orthodoxy is another story.

SV1973a
09-02-2014, 16:20
FTR, I was raised Baptist, seriously practiced it as an older teen for several years, then "wandered the desert" as a lazy agnostic and skeptic for twenty adult years before CS Lewis dragged me back to faith. Why Orthodoxy is another story.

Did you have different values in life during the 20 years you were agnostic ?

rusmeister
09-02-2014, 17:20
Did you have different values in life during the 20 years you were agnostic ?

Well, yes. I valued different things. I was gunning for the "better education", "better job", "better home", "better" material things in general.
If you're looking for "did my moral values change dramatically?", some of them did - sexual morality became unimportant to me, for example. "Doing the right thing" became a matter of pragmatism, "if it seemed in my best interests. But no, I didn't think murder and theft were OK, nor do I imply that atheists are immoral. I believe in the moral and even noble atheist. In fact, I know some personally, one is even a good friend.

It was coming flat up against the realization that all of those things are just a house of cards, that the doc can tell you you have cancer, or your son just died in a horrific car wreck, or whatever, and bring crashing down everything that you worked for all your life, that made me look for true value elsewhere.

Capman
09-02-2014, 18:06
Thanks, Cap.
I think there ARE intelligent non-believers; I'll even insist that there are, though frankly, they show themselves much more rarely than I'd like. We hear mostly from the noisy ones that *know* already and don't want to hear anything that would suggest that what they oppose is slightly more complex than they have imagined.
Me too.


Orthodox DON'T "worship" church buildings, but we DO see them to be consecrated places;
Forgive me, I didn't mean for it to sound like I was implying the buildings were worshiped. Your right of course I should have considered their importance. After all it usually takes quite some time and sacrifice to actually be able to have a place built.


FTR, I was raised Baptist, seriously practiced it as an older teen for several years, then "wandered the desert" as a lazy agnostic and skeptic for twenty adult years before CS Lewis dragged me back to faith. Why Orthodoxy is another story.
Wow!!! I'm glad you made it back!
I always thought the Orthodox Church was a split apart from the Roman Catholic Church during the Protestant rebellion. After your post I wanted to be sure and I looked it up, I see I'm wrong. Pretty cool though, from the original Disciples.

penka
09-02-2014, 18:18
Me too.


Forgive me, I didn't mean for it to sound like I was implying the buildings were worshiped. Your right of course I should have considered their importance. After all it usually takes quite some time and sacrifice to actually be able to have a place built.


Wow!!! I'm glad you made it back!
I always thought the Orthodox Church was a split apart from the Roman Catholic Church during the Protestant rebellion. After your post I wanted to be sure and I looked it up, I see I'm wrong. Pretty cool though, from the original Disciples.

The Catholics and the Orthodox split in 1054. Protestants/ Lutherans came much later.