PDA

View Full Version : Guns and Self Defence! Shud people be able to carry weapons?



Jas
23-10-2013, 14:29
C, in the UK and stuff u cant, no way, but in America u can. So?
I think if u carry a gun, if ure smaller and not that strong or whatever, then if bad guys come and want to get u- u got a great chance of defending ureself?
That's fair, right?
I think if I lived in America, I wud buy weapons for sure and I wud carry one also- just incase.
So shud people be able to carry guns? What do u think? I think it's ok and good people shud maybe.

Guys, like me, Judge Anderson failed her police entrance test- but she got in afterall. This is her in the job what I wud have wanted- in the MET, where u also get issued guns as part of the job.
This is one super cool vid! I got a Olivia Thirby pic as Judge Anderson as me screensaver!

Dredd (2012) - Olivia Thirlby killcount - YouTube

okiey
23-10-2013, 15:19
In general society is better without guns.

However, if we are talking about the US or RSA which are flooded with guns, its better to have one, than being one of the few without.

In saying that: a gun does not make you stronger, it probably leaves you more vulnerable.

If you were being mugged or held up for what ever reason by armed hardened criminals you will probably survive the ordeal if you are unarmed yourself. However, if you were armed, would you be ready to shoot and take another persons life ... I am not sure many are. The hardened criminal will have no qualms, and that will give him the advantage in any shoot out.

penka
23-10-2013, 15:26
C, in the UK and stuff u cant, no way, but in America u can. So?
I think if u carry a gun, if ure smaller and not that strong or whatever, then if bad guys come and want to get u- u got a great chance of defending ureself?
That's fair, right?
I think if I lived in America, I wud buy weapons for sure and I wud carry one also- just incase.
So shud people be able to carry guns? What do u think? I think it's ok and good people shud maybe.

Guys, like me, Judge Anderson failed her police entrance test- but she got in afterall. This is her in the job what I wud have wanted- in the MET, where u also get issued guns as part of the job.
This is one super cool vid! I got a Olivia Thirby pic as Judge Anderson as me screensaver!

Dredd (2012) - Olivia Thirlby killcount - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOFRbF99Fns)

Yeah, Jas, after a few Baltikas a handheld is precisely what you's need. Maybe, better even two for the Macedonian.

Benedikt
23-10-2013, 15:38
In saying that: a gun does not make you stronger, it probably leaves you more vulnerable.

but than a good one, do the training and also be prepared to use it, with all force and consequences if/when needed. one would be more likely accosted by a bunch of thugs, pickpockets, hooligans or the like. many times they are also drunk or high on something the snorted or injected. take on around the throat, a knee in the jewels and the rest will forget all their bravery and run. and if they come, a good selfdefence can do much more harm ( if needed or wanted) than a bullet. fair enough a bullet can kill but one might be that nervous one can not shoot straight anyway.
or i rather usean electric shocker, there are also non lethal ones, with such a loud and shrieking alarm, that will wake up half sleeping Moscow if needed.

and as the statistics show, more guns for sure do not mean less killings and the like, the same as the death sentence does not keep people doing things, where they know they will hang or sit on the chair.

Jas
23-10-2013, 15:44
However, if you were armed, would you be ready to shoot and take another persons life ... I am not sure many are. The hardened criminal will have no qualms, and that will give him the advantage in any shoot out.

No, cos by ure reckoning I wud have the advantage cos I wudn't hesitate to shoot cos it's a bad person and no problem.

Russian Lad
23-10-2013, 15:46
take on around the throat, a knee in the jewels and the rest will forget all their bravery and run.

Benedikt, with all due respect, you have been watching too many movies. The rest will just finish you - not that in too many cases you will have a chance to demonstrate your skills, at least in Russia. It will be an unexpected blow to the face from a side or from the back - and you will be alredy unconscious before your body even hits the ground. Well, it happened to me a couple of times.:) So, view it as some experience sharing.:)

Jas
23-10-2013, 15:48
[COLOR="Red"]
or i rather usean electric shocker, there are also non lethal ones, with such a loud and shrieking alarm, that will wake up half sleeping Moscow if needed.

and as the statistics show, more guns for sure do not mean less killings and the like, thre same as the death sentence does not keep people doing things, where they know they will hang or sit on the chai.

Do u mean like a taser?

Also, about stats, that's America, lots of guns and lots of killings, but what about say Pakistan where there's millions of guns- but not when u consider the population as a whole, yet gun crime is every place, a million times worse than America cud ever be?

Jas
23-10-2013, 15:52
Benedikt, with all due respect, you have been watching too many movies. The rest will just finish you - not that in too many cases you will have a chance to demonstrate your skills, at least in Russia. It will be an unexpected blow to the face from a side or from the back - and you will be alredy unconscious before your body even hits the ground. Well, it happened to me a couple of times.:) So, view it as some experience sharing.:)

I wud say it cud happen like that in Russia or other places also if u was drunk. Once ure drunk, of course u are a walking target.
U got to keep aware, have a sense of personal space also.

Jas
23-10-2013, 15:53
Maybe, better even two for the Macedonian.

What do u mean and stuff? I dont get it....

Benedikt
23-10-2013, 15:55
[QUOTE=Jas;1233710]Do u mean like a taser?

i don't mean one like that. as far as i know they are agaisnt the law, for private people to have one? in Russia only for the cops....
what i mean, they are small, look like a handy and you waer them on a sling around your hand, switched on. if you have to did in your handbag or purse, than it is for sure to late.

Jas
23-10-2013, 15:56
[QUOTE=Jas;1233710]Do u mean like a taser?

i don't mean one like that. as far as i know they are agaisnt the law, for private people to have one? in Russia only for the cops....
what i mean, they are small, look like a handy and you waer them on a sling around your hand, switched on. if you have to did in your handbag or purse, than it is for sure to late.

U mean a stun gun?

Jas
23-10-2013, 15:58
[COLOR="Red"][QUOTE=Jas;1233710] if you have to did in your handbag or purse, than it is for sure to late.

Yes, u got to be quick for sure.

Russian Lad
23-10-2013, 16:00
I wud say it cud happen like that in Russia or other places also if u was drunk. Once ure drunk, of course u are a walking target.
U got to keep aware, have a sense of personal space also.

Sober as well. It is much better to avoid certain places and being outside after certain times, if possible. Or not being alone. I live in a cesspit of a neighborhood where violence after 11-12 at night is a daily occurence.:) I have won quite many nasty fights, but I have also lost at least two.:) Well, in the first one I was attacked by three guys who had a fancy to play football with my head, and the second time I had two against me and didn't even see the punch coming and he had a piece of metal in his hand as well, judging by the wounds, I am still nursing a scar. Playing a hero with an aggressive crowd, like Benedikt suggests, is the last thing that you would want to do, whether being drunk or sober. In this case - either run or try real hard to make them like you.:) Well, unless you have a gun, of course, and are ready to do some serious whacking.

Benedikt
23-10-2013, 16:07
Sober as well. It is much better to avoid certain places and being outside after certain times, if possible. Or not being alone. I live in a cesspit of a neighborhood where violence after 11-12 at night is a daily occurence.:) Playing a hero with an aggressive crowd, like Benedikt suggests, is the last thing that you would want to do, whether being drunk or sober. In this case - either run or try real hard to make them like you.:)

Strogino is a nice palce, no drunks around at night, and no marouding scoundresl. the cop and security patrols pick them up quickly or tell them to shut up and go home. and check that they do so...( if they are in front of an entrance door and start arguing.) also a call to the -dejournia jas- is answered quickly. as i said, Strogino is a nice place.

Jas
23-10-2013, 16:08
Sober as well. It is much better to avoid certain places and being outside after certain times, if possible. Or not being alone. I live in a cesspit of a neighborhood where violence after 11-12 at night is a daily occurence.:) I have won quite many nasty fights, but I have also lost at least two.:) Well, in the first one I was attacked by three guys and the second time I had two against me and didn't even see the punch coming and he had a piece of metal in his hand as well, I am still nursing a scar. Playing a hero with an aggressive crowd, like Benedikt suggests, is the last thing that you would want to do, whether being drunk or sober. In this case - either run or try real hard to make them like you.:) Well, unless you have a gun, of course, and are ready to do some serious whacking.

But why did these criminals do this to u, RL, was it thieves or what?

Jas
23-10-2013, 16:10
Strogino is a nice palce, no drunks around at night, and no marouding scoundresl. the cop and security patrols pick them up quickly or tell them to shut up and go home. and check that they do so...( if they are in front of an entrance door and start arguing.) also a call to the -dejournia jas- is answered quickly. as i said, Strogino is a nice place.

Yes, I wud want to live in a nice place for sure. Kazan was ok, except in the streets round the Volga in the summer nights, but no problems really.

Russian Lad
23-10-2013, 16:13
But why did these criminals do this to u, RL, was it thieves or what?

No, not thieves in those cases, just the damn rank and file at their leisure time. I may have provoked it, I become way too friendly when I am drunk, and many riffraff Russians take friendliness from strangers for bullying. So, yes, in those two cases alco was a strong factor, combined with the wrong place, the wrong time and me being alone in the second episode.

Jas
23-10-2013, 16:22
No, not thieves in those cases, just the damn rank and file at their leisure time. I may have provoked it, I become way too friendly when I am drunk, and many riffraff Russians take friendliness from strangers for bullying. So, yes, in those two cases alco was a strong factor, combined with the wrong place, the wrong time and me being alone in the second episode.

I know what u mean...
In Kazansky station there is a small buffet thing under the big clock, next to a proper pub. I wudn't go into the pub, but I thought I wud risk the little buffet cos I wanted just one beer before the train. So I sat down and this thug in rough clothes was just staring at me, drinking beer and slapping his lips and then he asked me the time and when I didn't reply immediately (cos I didnt know what was going on), he just shoved me as he got up and left. I mean, like why?
I was only in Moscow in just that station, that's only bit what I know, that and the pizza place outside. It's a very rough place, all in all.

Jas
23-10-2013, 16:30
What about taxis in Moscow, do u guys think it's safe or no? Like if u wanted to go from SVO to Kazansky and not worry about mashrutki, but take a taxi- do u think it's safe or what? I always took mashrutki to the metro and then to Komsomolskaya, cos I was to cautious go in a taxi.

AstarD
23-10-2013, 16:50
It depends on if it's an official taxi or a bombila.

Jas
23-10-2013, 17:04
It depends on if it's an official taxi or a bombila.

So how do u know the difference if u just arrive some place? U cant go out to the taxi first and check, can u? Everytime I arrived to SVO there was always these guys in flat caps what wud hover about and offer a taxi- but I never done it.
I wudn't get in a taxi for one big reason also and that's I like to drink on the plane- so no way wud I risk a taxi.

Jas
23-10-2013, 17:04
It depends on if it's an official taxi or a bombila.

Btw, in Kazan taxis are always safe and u got no problems.

okiey
23-10-2013, 17:25
So how do u know the difference if u just arrive some place? U cant go out to the taxi first and check, can u? Everytime I arrived to SVO there was always these guys in flat caps what wud hover about and offer a taxi- but I never done it.
I wudn't get in a taxi for one big reason also and that's I like to drink on the plane- so no way wud I risk a taxi.

Just go to an offical taxi desk.

FatAndy
23-10-2013, 17:38
I wudn't hesitate to shoot cos it's a bad person and no problem.

How many points you shoot from, let's say, 25m distance off 10 shoots on a steady target? On the moving target? From the knee? Lying down in a pool of mud? Of your own blood?

Did you ever try to shoot somebody from a hand gun? Which distance/position? Which gun (model)? How many bullets/hits you used to... hmm... close the deal?

If never, are you ready to watch quietly how his/her head explodes from the bullet, dropping out blood and rose brains around, including your face/head/hands?

mrzuzzo
23-10-2013, 17:55
The problem with people carrying weapons is that mentally ill and emotional people can carry them too, and that's when things get out of hand and innocent people die.

I could never point a gun at anyone, if I point - I will shoot, and I'm not the one to decide who deserves to live and who doesn't.

mrzuzzo
23-10-2013, 17:57
And I know how to handle a gun and have gone to ranges both here and abroad...

Shooting at Gun Range in Moscow, Russia - YouTube

Btnaughton
23-10-2013, 18:17
I say yes. Only with proper training, certification and licensing. #1rule of guns to me is you only draw when you MUST fire.

Russian Lad
23-10-2013, 18:35
In Russia it will never happen for two reasons:
1) There is almost no gun culture, there will be deadly shootouts on every street every day, Russians manage to kill each other with traumatic weapons on a regular basis.
2) The authorities are barely legit here, they will be afraid to have firearms-wielding people for citizens.

FatAndy
23-10-2013, 19:21
2) The authorities are barely legit here, they will be afraid to have firearms-wielding people for citizens.
Did you ever hear about hunting clubs/licenses and private securities/investigators?

AFAIR:
Private security guard can be licensed to carry (not own!) for 3 units (one hand gun, one smooth-bare and one cut rifle) during duty;

Private investigator - for one hand gun;

Hunter may store at home - 2 traumatic units, 5 smooth-bare rifles and 2 cut rifles (including Vepr' and Saiga class with riflescope)

Russian Lad
23-10-2013, 19:54
Did you ever hear about hunting clubs/licenses and private securities/investigators?

AFAIR:
Private security guard can be licensed to carry (not own!) for 3 units (one hand gun, one smooth-bare and one cut rifle) during duty;

Private investigator - for one hand gun;

Hunter may store at home - 2 traumatic units, 5 smooth-bare rifles and 2 cut rifles (including Vepr' and Saiga class with riflescope)

Sure, Andy, but it is a very limited use, compared to the US. Some houses I visited in Alabama back in 1994 contained the arsenals suitable for a little regular army, including machine guns and pretty much everything that fires.

Jas
23-10-2013, 20:13
Just go to an offical taxi desk.

But it's very expensive....

FatAndy
23-10-2013, 20:14
Sure, Andy, but it is a very limited use, compared to the US. Some houses I visited in Alabama back in 1994 contained the arsenals suitable for a little regular army, including machine guns and pretty much everything that fires.
Quantity not always means quality. ;)

Jas
23-10-2013, 20:19
How many points you shoot from, let's say, 25m distance off 10 shoots on a steady target? On the moving target? From the knee? Lying down in a pool of mud? Of your own blood?

Did you ever try to shoot somebody from a hand gun? Which distance/position? Which gun (model)? How many bullets/hits you used to... hmm... close the deal?

If never, are you ready to watch quietly how his/her head explodes from the bullet, dropping out blood and rose brains around, including your face/head/hands?

No, of course I never shot someone. I dunno what gun I wud use also.
Er, but if someone is trying to drag me into a car, do u think I shud be worrying if I shoot him? If it's horrible, then its horrible cos of all the gore and stuff, but what's happening isn't horrible cos it's happening to a bad person, so no problem. Sometimes u got to protect urself and not be so weak u cant do what u need to do. Shooting people is normal in politics and stuff, so if its normal there, its definetly normal to save meself from getting dragged into a car.

Jas
23-10-2013, 20:22
Quantity not always means quality. ;)

I think there's lots of guns cos of hunters (oxota is a very good beer btw also), so maybe there's not lots of guns like in America, but for hunters and stuff in Russia, I think its a part of life for people what live in forests and on rivers.

penka
23-10-2013, 20:52
What do u mean and stuff? I dont get it....

Macedonian style shooting, with two handheld guns.

bydand
23-10-2013, 22:30
How many points you shoot from, let's say, 25m distance off 10 shoots on a steady target? On the moving target? From the knee? Lying down in a pool of mud? Of your own blood?

Did you ever try to shoot somebody from a hand gun? Which distance/position? Which gun (model)? How many bullets/hits you used to... hmm... close the deal?

If never, are you ready to watch quietly how his/her head explodes from the bullet, dropping out blood and rose brains around, including your face/head/hands?

Legally obtaining a handgun in Russia would be very difficult. Even if you're a security type, I think you have to rent the handgun from the authorities. I'm not even sure if a non-citizen can own a smooth bore long gun. Anybody here know?

If you have one but don't carry it, its useless. Your wardrobe would have to change to conceal it effectively. A wide enough belt (about 35mm) to keep the holster from flopping around, pants with belt loops big enough for the belt, a baggy shirt or jacket to cover it. With a shoulder holster you would need a jacket. In a purse your presentation would be slow at best, and your purse might be what they grab first anyway, before thumping you. There are "pocket pistols" easier to conceal, but they are usually not quick into action, and their accuracy such that your best off sticking it in the perps ribs and pulling the trigger.

Even so, someone like Tolka could tell you are carrying.

On a different note, carry around a 300-400 gram weight with you all day instead of a pistol. Just to get an idea of what it entails. Most people with a carry permit in the USA don't carry; its a hassle.

Like driving a car, being proficient with any gun takes practice. Ammunition isn't cheap, and neither are gun ranges. Even proficiency doesn't mean you'll hit what you want when stressed. There have been cases of shootouts in a room (close proximity) where both parties unload their guns and nobody gets hit.

If you still want one, more power to you! I think its not likely possible for most in Russia.

Jack17
23-10-2013, 22:58
My problem with having a gun is always the following: How do you keep them out of the hands of your wife or girl friend? You know, "Hell hath no furry . . ."

The only gun I'd be willing to carry is one that could only be fired with my trigger finger print - even then . . . .

FatAndy
24-10-2013, 08:57
Legally obtaining a handgun in Russia would be very difficult. Even if you're a security type, I think you have to rent the handgun from the authorities. I'm not even sure if a non-citizen can own a smooth bore long gun. Anybody here know?


Like driving a car, being proficient with any gun takes practice. Ammunition isn't cheap, and neither are gun ranges. Even proficiency doesn't mean you'll hit what you want when stressed. There have been cases of shootouts in a room (close proximity) where both parties unload their guns and nobody gets hit.

If you still want one, more power to you! I think its not likely possible for most in Russia.
For trainings/practice - one cartridge 9*18 is 20-50 rub depending on manufacturer and venue, one hour of training with instructor in Podmoskovie is kilorub. So 3-4 kilorub per training - not cheap but...
Regarding non-citizens I have to ask my police guys from licensing division.

FatAndy
24-10-2013, 11:13
Carrying toy weapons by children in CA, USA may appear incompatible with life: http://top.rbc.ru/incidents/24/10/2013/884573.shtml

mrzuzzo
24-10-2013, 13:09
Carrying toy weapons by children in CA, USA may appear incompatible with life: http://top.rbc.ru/incidents/24/10/2013/884573.shtml

I saw this yesterday, very sad but also reminded me of the way police handle things over there.

mrzuzzo
24-10-2013, 13:15
oxota is a very good beer btw also

This is why I hope you never live in a country where guns are allowed... :drink::drink::drink:

okiey
24-10-2013, 13:18
The teenager was carrying a replica weapon, not a toy. The police warned him to put down the weapon.

He got what he deserved; the cops made the right decision in light of the fact a days earlier a student shot his teacher dead.

mrzuzzo
24-10-2013, 13:26
The teenager was carrying a replica weapon, not a toy. The police warned him to put down the weapon.

He got what he deserved; the cops made the right decision in light of the fact a days earlier a student shot his teacher dead.

I don't think killing a 13-year old child is the right decision, regardless of what he was carrying...

okiey
24-10-2013, 13:30
I don't think killing a 13-year old child is the right decision, regardless of what he was carrying...

He was mature enough to make a decision to ignore police warnings to drop the weapon.

Children a lot younger have shot others dead. What are the cops to do when they stumble across a juvenile with a weapon (real or replica), wait for him to shoot someone to be sure the weapon is real?

mrzuzzo
24-10-2013, 13:38
He was mature enough to make a decision to ignore police warnings to drop the weapon.

Children a lot younger have shot others dead. What are the cops to do when they stumble across a juvenile with a weapon (real or replica), wait for him to shoot someone to be sure the weapon is real?

How was he mature enough? He was probably not mature enough to realize that he was in trouble if he kept going.

They could have shot him in the leg or something, to avoid killing the child, no? :eh:

okiey
24-10-2013, 13:48
The question as to whether the cops were right or wrong is entirely different. I have no doubt that a lot of trigger-happy guys join the force -- aka Tacklebury from Police Academy.

But, as someone said earlier in the thread never pull out a gun unless you are willing to use it. Guys pull off robberies with replica guns through the threat of force.

Should we have a special law exempting children and retards from gun laws?

The teenager in question was given a choice -- he had his fate in his own hands and made a decision.

You have to also take into account that this was unlikely an isolated situation for these cops. They are being shot at or facing dangerous situations every day -- they see their collegues being shot and killed. They are not going to take any chances with their own lives or the general publics.

Its very easy to critisize them.

mrzuzzo
24-10-2013, 14:16
The question as to whether the cops were right or wrong is entirely different. I have no doubt that a lot of trigger-happy guys join the force -- aka Tacklebury from Police Academy.

But, as someone said earlier in the thread never pull out a gun unless you are willing to use it. Guys pull off robberies with replica guns through the threat of force.

Should we have a special law exempting children and retards from gun laws?

The teenager in question was given a choice -- he had his fate in his own hands and made a decision.

You have to also take into account that this was unlikely an isolated situation for these cops. They are being shot at or facing dangerous situations every day -- they see their collegues being shot and killed. They are not going to take any chances with their own lives or the general publics.

Its very easy to critisize them.

Whatever dude, the cops fired 7 shots at a 13-year old kid. This is unacceptable. End of story.

I can't and won't accept your rhetoric about cops facing dangerous situations - they're the ones that signed up for their jobs and all the things that go with them. They should be able to handle such situations.

okiey
24-10-2013, 14:26
Whatever dude, the cops fired 7 shots at a 13-year old kid. This is unacceptable. End of story.

I can't and won't accept your rhetoric about cops facing dangerous situations - they're the ones that signed up for their jobs and all the things that go with them. They should be able to handle such situations.

I am not defending the cops. Its a seperate issue.

Matt24
24-10-2013, 15:16
Genius idea! Well done Jas I think you've cracked the whole constitutional right to bare arms even if you're a deranged self loathing schoolyard masacrerist without having to adjust the constitution and sidestepping the NRA on the way - Make the guns so heavy that people won't be able to carry them! Apart from Colombine and the Washington Sniper, workplace and schoolyard massacres are generally the work of loan wolves exercising their rights to own weaponry or having access to weaponry from friends and relations who haven't noticed the oddness of their children/siblings - make guns very very heavy and very big and while we're at it make the bullets absolutely massive - thus no retraction of constitutional rights, 'if you can carry it, you can use it' - and no need to waste hundreds of young lives debating magazine size or whether the constitution covers fully automatic weapons.

Jas you are indeed a genius.

FatAndy
24-10-2013, 17:43
Genius idea! Well done Jas I think you've cracked the whole constitutional right to bare arms even if you're a deranged self loathing schoolyard masacrerist without having to adjust the constitution and sidestepping the NRA on the way - Make the guns so heavy that people won't be able to carry them!
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4613/55125778.8a/0_5f22a_20294370_XL

Alan65
25-10-2013, 16:43
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4613/55125778.8a/0_5f22a_20294370_XL

where will this end up?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-24666591

Syed.Ahmed
25-10-2013, 22:37
I have a hand gun back home and I carry it. But still temperament is the main issue. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

sashadidi
26-10-2013, 10:08
How was he mature enough? He was probably not mature enough to realize that he was in trouble if he kept going.

They could have shot him in the leg or something, to avoid killing the child, no? :eh:

Its actually quite hard to shoot accurately in real life unlike most TV programs would have you believe (especially a pistol) and under stress.......
Training can of course help that to a certain degree.
I know for example that 20% of police recruits in New Zealand are not allowed to use guns as they cannot use/handle them properly but it does not stop them being good policeman

Sana
26-10-2013, 10:35
It depends on if it's an official taxi or a bombila.

Do you ever take a "bombila" ? I think they are dangerous, no?

TolkoRaz
26-10-2013, 11:11
Its actually quite hard to shoot accurately in real life unlike most TV programs would have you believe (especially a pistol) and under stress.......
Training can of course help that to a certain degree.
I know for example that 20% of police recruits in New Zealand are not allowed to use guns as they cannot use/handle them properly but it does not stop them being good policeman

Exactly, well written.

Usually, with a pistol, the first 2 rounds are to throw lead in the general direction of the threat to force them to put their down and to give one time to take cover, or escape, to a better fire position where deliberate and aimed shots can be taken from.

With an assault weapon, quite often a long burst, even the entire magazine will be fired at the threat to get their head's down and for the firer and colleagues to find a 'hard' position to engage the aggressors from anf rom where the firefight can be won

Films featuring weaponry with never ending magazines and barrels which never overheat, or weapons which never jam at the crucial moment, never cease to amaze me! ;) I wish I could find such a weapon! :D

Btnaughton
26-10-2013, 20:55
Do you ever take a "bombila" ? I think they are dangerous, no?

Fairly certain those are the onnly drivers I get.

penka
26-10-2013, 21:27
A person with firearms, shooting, is an armed person. Underaged or not.