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Jas
17-10-2013, 23:15
Guys, you met any famous personages in ure life?

I met Bilawal Bhutto, Altaf Hussain (he pinched me face, dunno if that counts) and Marc Almond and believe me, it was the latter what was most interesting....

robertmf
17-10-2013, 23:29
Me!
Bob Hope
Johnny Oates
Jack Nicklaus


:1306:

Jas
17-10-2013, 23:38
Me!
Bob Hope
Johnny Oates
Jack Nicklaus


:1306:

Wow, he was in "The Joker," in Batman movie. Cool.

BabyFirefly
18-10-2013, 00:09
I met Jennifer Lopez once. To make a long story short, she's living proof of the Latina beeyotch stereotype.

FatAndy
18-10-2013, 00:12
Guys, you met any famous personages in ure life?

I met Bilawal Bhutto, Altaf Hussain (he pinched me face, dunno if that counts) and Marc Almond and believe me, it was the latter what was most interesting....
Sure. I saw dedushka Lenin in Masoleum - 2 times :verycool:

JanC
18-10-2013, 00:20
Too many to mention, though ironically I'm one of those people who really doesn't give a flying **** about celebrities. So the ones who have a "lack of modesty" actually tend to annoy me considerably (which involves the majority of russian celebs)

A good memory is running into Anthony Hopkins coming out of an elevator in a hotel just outside London. He nearly ran into me thinking the elevator was empty as I was getting out on that floor. He backed up, we exchanged good mornings while we swapped places and went our ways. Just a classy feeling.

BabyFirefly
18-10-2013, 00:23
Oh! I also met this Puerto Rican rapper once... really famous here, he kept bothering me and giving me creepy rape-stares, and I just ignored him. I was later told by someone who worked at the place that it was that rapper. I had no idea it was him (I knew him by name, but I never really cared for rap so I can't tell who most of them) and was just disgusted that the guy had expected me to just gush all over him. This guy Héctor el Father - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I also ran into another famous rapper, one I did actually know and whose music I liked, it was a lot about social change and all that, at Old Navy once. He was very humble, and told me he was getting his little girl (who was adorable btw) clothes there because there's no point in buying babies expensive clothes. This guy Tego Calderón - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jack17
18-10-2013, 01:44
Yes.

Bill Clinton and George Bush; but they weren't alone, Tolka Raz was with them.

finnandcork
18-10-2013, 03:05
1.) Tom Waits, many times, talking
2.) Timothy Leary, we had an ice cream cone and chatted for an hour
3.) Howard Stern, in an alley in New Orleans, 1992
4.) Green Day, Rancid, others before they were famous.
5.) Mike Patton
6.) Ute Lempre
7.) Plastic Peaople of the Universe, Vaclav Havel
8.) Voinovich
9.) Viktor Erofeev
10.)Tom Robbins
11.) Robert Anton Wilson
12.) Lawrence Ferlinghetti(we got drunk for many hours)
13.)Ismail Kadare
almost went to a BBQ in Nj where Bjork was going to be, I have a insane crush on her so maybe its good we never met.
14.)Skinny Puppy
15.) Utah Phillips and Ani Defranco had coffee with me
16.)Spitzer in a NY gay bar(cheap drinks, really)
17.)Famous jazz pinaist Barabara Carrol played a friends penthouse in NYC, there were others there but dont recall who....was talking with the Maersk heir.
18. Orlando Figes
19) Robert Conquest
Danny Glover---was spraying his house for roaches.
20)Pelevin, Dubravka Ugresic, Gary Shteyngart, David Remnick,
but the best was Tom Waits.

Jack17
18-10-2013, 03:35
1.) Tom Waits, many times, talking
2.) Timothy Leary, we had an ice cream cone and chatted for an hour
3.) Howard Stern, in an alley in New Orleans, 1992
4.) Green Day, Rancid, others before they were famous.
5.) Mike Patton
6.) Ute Lempre
7.) Plastic Peaople of the Universe, Vaclav Havel
8.) Voinovich
9.) Viktor Erofeev
10.)Tom Robbins
11.) Robert Anton Wilson
12.) Lawrence Ferlinghetti(we got drunk for many hours)
13.)Ismail Kadare
almost went to a BBQ in Nj where Bjork was going to be, I have a insane crush on her so maybe its good we never met.
14.)Skinny Puppy
15.) Utah Phillips and Ani Defranco had coffee with me
16.)Spitzer in a NY gay bar(cheap drinks, really)
17.)Famous jazz pinaist Barabara Carrol played a friends penthouse in NYC, there were others there but dont recall who....was talking with the Maersk heir.
18. Orlando Figes
19) Robert Conquest
Danny Glover---was spraying his house for roaches.
20)Pelevin, Dubravka Ugresic, Gary Shteyngart, David Remnick,
but the best was Tom Waits.
I'm impressed.

Russian Lad
18-10-2013, 04:07
I met Mikhail Boyarsky once, he was in a hotel, talking to doctor Scheglov.:) I was drunk and accosted them, demanded they sign my bar of chocolate for my sister.:) They did ok.:) Also, I lived in the same hotel with Valentin Gaft (another famous Russian actor) in a little oil town, Kogalym, not far from Surgut.

FatAndy
18-10-2013, 04:18
Yes.

Bill Clinton and George Bush; but they weren't alone, Tolka Raz was with them.
Everyone knows Tolik, but who are these two? :suspect:

Benedikt
18-10-2013, 05:29
Guys, you met any famous personages in ure life?

I met Bilawal Bhutto, Altaf Hussain (he pinched me face, dunno if that counts) and Marc Almond and believe me, it was the latter what was most interesting....



and i found that the real celebs or people in power are the ones who are well behaved,polite and have a thank you in the end.
nevertheless, rich, famous or just a poor slob, to the toilet we all WALK and clean out behind ourselves. and the last shirt has no pockets for all of us.

Jas
18-10-2013, 13:48
and i found that the real celebs or people in power are the ones who are well behaved,polite and have a thank you in the end.
nevertheless, rich, famous or just a poor slob, to the toilet we all WALK and clean out behind ourselves. and the last shirt has no pockets for all of us.

So u didn't meet no one famous then?

AstarD
18-10-2013, 13:50
So u didn't meet no one famous then?
Yes, you're right, Jas. He met several; not only one.

Jas
18-10-2013, 14:02
Yes, you're right, Jas. He met several; not only one.

Er, where did he tell that?

AstarD
18-10-2013, 14:04
What?

Jas
18-10-2013, 14:11
What?

That he met many famous personages? He never told that. U told, but Benedikt never told nothing of the kind.

I'm going to the mini market to get some beers and I will be back in forty minutes. Me aunt gave me 300 euro to help me to the end of the month: Let the Magic Begin...

AstarD
18-10-2013, 14:16
Well, he told (sic) it in message #13, and you said you agreed with him in message #14. :eh:

mrzuzzo
18-10-2013, 14:25
Medvedev

Nobbynumbnuts
18-10-2013, 14:43
I worked for a film location catering company back in the 80's so met quite a few, the most notable were Paul McCartney, Ringo Star, Tom Selleck, Linda Ronstadt, Kevin Kline, all the pythons-Michael Palin, John Cleese and Terry Jones, Eric Idle, Graham Chapman, Terry Gilliam.

In Russia i met Michael Gorbachev back in 2002. He came into the restaurant where i was working in Zhukovka. I went to his table and had quite a lengthy conversation with him. He doesn't speak English but his daughter translated. I was so freaking excited i called everyone i knew after! :D

Russian Lad
18-10-2013, 14:48
He doesn't speak English but his daughter translated. I was so freaking excited i called everyone i knew after!

You had a chance to change the course of Russia's history and you missed it.:10189:
I know one former desantnik who worked as a guard, he said he saw Eltsin through the cross-hair of his Dragunov rifle.:)
My father once met VVP at a military funeral, said he wasn't impressed.:)

TolkoRaz
18-10-2013, 14:49
I have been very fortunate and honoured to meet quite a few famous personages from many different walks of life (so called Celebs to Politicians / Statesmen), including Mikhail Sergeyevich.

But, I do hate to report that the most impressive by a Golden Mile were both Americans - Coln Powell and Bill Clinton, but Coln was the Top Dog in my book :book:

Sana
18-10-2013, 14:50
I dated once a very famous person from the Silicon Valley, ..... He is not different from a regular guy - the richer they are, the more simple life they prefer to lead.

TolkoRaz
18-10-2013, 14:52
I once knew a girl who had a Silicon Valley! ;)

Sana
18-10-2013, 14:53
Sounds shallow... If you meant to sound like this... Or what do you mean she had it?
All shallow remarks come from a simple envy. I noticed Russian men and men from the former soviet block countries blame Russian women who date rich foreign guys and often think and speak shallow about them calling them names (and hookers), and fabricating lies and liable about them. I have heard that all, and that is why I stopped respecting Russian men.

mrzuzzo
18-10-2013, 14:56
I dated once a very famous person from the Silicon Valley, ..... He is not different from a regular guy - the richer they are, the more simple life they prefer to lead.

Was it Zuckerberg or Jobs? Own up! :10189:

Sana
18-10-2013, 14:59
Was it Zuckerberg or Jobs? Own up! :10189:

Somebody from their circle. I won't name the person.

mrzuzzo
18-10-2013, 15:03
Somebody from their circle. I won't name the person.

Must've been Sergey Brin then!

Sana
18-10-2013, 15:05
No comments. It was five years ago, and I prefer not to recall it anymore.

mrzuzzo
18-10-2013, 15:15
No comments. It was five years ago, and I prefer not to recall it anymore.

You should make a movie or at least write a book about your life. Dating billionaires, being chased by the FSB, and so on. Seems quite interesting!

Sana
18-10-2013, 15:16
If only you insist, I will ! And then I will find a person who will write a screenplay and we will film it. But I never said I was chased by FSB, I was chased by the people of some moron who had connections. And the one who I dated is not a billionaire, he is just a millionaire.....

Nobbynumbnuts
18-10-2013, 15:18
....But, I do hate to report that the most impressive by a Golden Mile were both Americans - Coln Powell and Bill Clinton.....

I went to Tallin on a visa run back in 2002. On the train were a few Americans who told me Clinton was there for some meeting or other and then i forgot all about it.
After going to the Russian embassy i walked round the corner to the main square and sat outside the Irish pub for breakfast. One of those large, black 4x4 pulled up right in front of me and Clinton got out with a few others! I found my camera but by the time i got it out, dropped it and then managed to turn it on, he was gone.
Unforgettable moment though...

Russian Lad
18-10-2013, 15:18
If only you insist, I will ! And then I will find a person who will write a screenplay and we will film it.

We can make Jas star in it.:) :queen::10189: She and Yak can write the script, too.:)

Sana
18-10-2013, 15:30
They won't agree, I am afraid. Apart from these two life events, there aren't anything interesting ..in my life. Too little to film.

natlee
18-10-2013, 16:38
Юрий Никулин.

Sana
18-10-2013, 16:47
Did you know him personally?

mrzuzzo
18-10-2013, 16:50
Did you know him personally?

She probably dated him :gay:

natlee
18-10-2013, 16:53
Did you know him personally? Think I was in high school (was quite a while ago :shame: ;)) and saw him at school one day picking up his grandchild (can't even remember whether it was a boy or a girl :eek:) I do remember staring at him, and he went up to me, smiled and asked me for a pen or a pencil. I felt sooo special! :D I have his autograph somewhere... I hope!! If I lost it, I will be very mad at myself :grind: So to answer your question, no, I didn't exactly know him, but did speak to him briefly.

natlee
18-10-2013, 16:53
She probably dated him :gay: :D You're horrible! Which is what I love you for :p

VicY
18-10-2013, 17:05
I met Marc Almond too! It was definitely VERY interesting ;) It was such a long time ago and he was such a sweetie :AngelPray:

VicY
18-10-2013, 17:50
Must've been Sergey Brin then!

:D :D :D

Potty
18-10-2013, 18:35
I dated this guy. He is about 20 years older than me and its funny that I was crazy about this song when was a little girl
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2hQnT7h39yQ

VicY
18-10-2013, 18:40
He is about 20 years older than me and its funny that I was crazy about this song when was a little girl


You were???????????

Potty
18-10-2013, 18:43
Yeah, still like it.

ezik
18-10-2013, 18:43
For Heaven's sake, don't go for 9's or Krepky's.


That he met many famous personages? He never told that. U told, but Benedikt never told nothing of the kind.

I'm going to the mini market to get some beers and I will be back in forty minutes. Me aunt gave me 300 euro to help me to the end of the month: Let the Magic Begin...

Potty
18-10-2013, 18:55
Also one of them :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cQssijwx8w

ezik
18-10-2013, 19:08
I met quite some famous people, but not sure if they remember meeting me. :) Mostly in the music and film industry.

Some of my Russian friends are famous, but when I first met them I didn't know it. Found out only later. When I met my wife, she was well-known. In journalist circles lots of people know her today.

Had lots of meet & greets before and after concerts, sometimes drinks etc. Hung out a lot with Shnurov and Sevich from ska/punk/folk group Leningrad. My first curse words in Russian were taught to me by Sevich during white night in a park in St. Petersburg, while we killed some bottles. So I learned that from the master.

Syed.Ahmed
18-10-2013, 19:13
I met
Altar Hussian
Benazir Bhutto
Murtaza Bhutto
Ahmed Dedat
Farooq Leghari
Will also meet cricket legend Zaheer Abbass in the end of this month in Moscow when he comes.

Other then that have met quiet a lot of celebrities both local and international.

Potty
18-10-2013, 19:15
One my friend here had a car accident with George Michael"s dad (he is Cypriot in case you don"t know). Both were fine, dont worry :D

Sana
18-10-2013, 19:19
Also one of them ]

Potty, are you from the Russian show biz? :::))))

Jack17
18-10-2013, 19:35
and i found that the real celebs or people in power are the ones who are well behaved,polite and have a thank you in the end.
nevertheless, rich, famous or just a poor slob, to the toilet we all WALK and clean out behind ourselves. and the last shirt has no pockets for all of us.
Benedikt, I just wanted to ask, did you ever meet the aquarell painter?

Jas
18-10-2013, 19:40
I met
Altar Hussian
Benazir Bhutto
Murtaza Bhutto
Ahmed Dedat
Farooq Leghari
Will also meet cricket legend Zaheer Abbass in the end of this month in Moscow when he comes.

Other then that have met quiet a lot of celebrities both local and international.

So I guess ure from a legal background, was in South Africa at some point, and ure a Muhajir what's based in Karachi?

Potty
18-10-2013, 19:47
Some fashion people. Roberto Cavalli, Baldinini, one son of Braccialini family. Also Чулпан Хаматова and Артур from 9 рота. But didn't talk to them. And Армен Джигарханян.

Jack17
18-10-2013, 19:49
You just bought their clothes. Ahhhhh Potty, living on a tropical island married to a Russian oligarch - life is good isn't it? Go girl.

ezik
18-10-2013, 19:52
OK, so how do we define "meeting"?
Exchanging a few words is the least, no? :)
Or, in Jas' case, getting pinched in your face... ;)

Potty
18-10-2013, 19:54
You just bought their clothes. Ahhhhh Potty, living on a tropical island married to a Russian oligarch - life is good isn't it? Go girl.

No, dear Jack. It was before my marriage while doing my masters in international fashion marketing in Florence.

Jas
18-10-2013, 20:00
OK, so how do we define "meeting"?
Exchanging a few words is the least, no? :)
Or, in Jas' case, getting pinched in your face... ;)

Well I was only a kid btw....

Jas
18-10-2013, 20:02
No, dear Jack. It was before my marriage while doing my masters in international fashion marketing in Florence.

I was to Florence and I loved it.

TolkoRaz
18-10-2013, 20:03
Юрий Никулин.

Stop clowning around! :p

Jas
18-10-2013, 20:05
Some fashion people. Roberto Cavalli, Baldinini, one son of Braccialini family. Also Чулпан Хаматова and Артур from 9 рота. But didn't talk to them. And Армен Джигарханян.

Slava Zaitsev is in Firenze...

Potty
18-10-2013, 20:06
Slava Zaitsev is in Firenze...

Really? :D

Jack17
18-10-2013, 20:08
No, dear Jack. It was before my marriage while doing my masters in international fashion marketing in Florence.
Whatever. But something tells me you were hot in their clothes!

Jas
18-10-2013, 20:09
Really? :D

Yes, shop was going for like decades.

ezik
18-10-2013, 20:13
Yoko Ono said "hi" to me when she was in Moscow. But only after I said "hi", so I guess that doesn't count. :D

I was glad to meet Danny Boyle on his Moscow premiere of Slumdog Millionaire. He is very down-to-earth.

A friend of mine was editor-in-chief of Playboy Russia. He met just tons of celebs. But he also got shot here in Moscow, so I'll not be too quick with calling him a "lucky bastard". :) Anyway, he told me Björk is really nice (I met her husband). He also met Christina Aguileira, who seemed to be having a coke habit. Damn, he even made it to the Mansion!!!

Potty
18-10-2013, 20:22
Whatever. But something tells me you were hot in their clothes!

Never wore them. Just visited their factories and listened to their lectures.

TolkoRaz
18-10-2013, 20:48
Madonna is a bi**ch!

Every morning she works out for 2 1 / 2 - 3 hours doing her weird fitness regime. When travelling, she clears out the hotel's fitness room, gets her team to erect scaffolding and installs loads of special heaters. Every morning for at least 2 1/2 hours she works out tirelessly in intense heat (almost as bad as a sauna) - her Fitness Trainers can only cope for one hour at time in the room, so she always has 2 on duty who rotate. One member of Security stands inside whilst the other stands outside - they also rotate!

She really works hard, but her body is shot, skin hangs off her arms and huge veins run down most of her arm and hands - she is not attractive at all.

She has a really bad temper, only sees her children for a few moments and then hands them back to their minders / nannies.

The lady is a Fraud, although her rehearsals and concerts are good! ;) In fact, her rehearsals are often better than her concerts - she really works hard on stage, but after the full blown rehearsal which VIPs are invited to - she is always late for the actual concert - being late by 90 minutes is not uncommon, but she is never late for her rehearsal!! :eek:

Potty
18-10-2013, 20:51
Madonna is a bi**ch!

Every morning she works out for 2 1 / 2 - 3 hours doing her weird fitness regime. When travelling, she clears out the hotel's fitness room, gets her team to erect scaffolding and installs loads of special heaters. Every morning for at least 2 1/2 hours she works out tirelessly in intense heat (almost as bad as a sauna) - her Fitness Trainers can only cope for one hour at time in the room, so she always has 2 on duty who rotate. One member of Security stands inside whilst the other stands outside - they also rotate!

She really works hard, but her body is shot, skin hangs off her arms and huge veins run down most of her arm and hands - she is not attractive at all.

She has a really bad temper, only sees her children for a few moments and then hands them back to their minders / nannies.

The lady is a Fraud, although her rehearsals and concerts are good! ;) In fact, her rehearsals are often better than her concerts - she really works hard on stage, but after the full blown rehearsal which VIPs are invited to - she is always late for the actual concert - being late by 90 minutes is not uncommon, but she is never late for her rehearsal!! :eek:
Poor woman.

finnandcork
18-10-2013, 21:03
Id trade all of mine to meet Monty Python cast

finnandcork
18-10-2013, 21:06
Юрий Никулин.
What was he like? Did you talk to him?

Jack17
18-10-2013, 21:14
The lady is a Fraud,

Only her money is real.

penka
18-10-2013, 21:54
Swedish Royalty and a few Swedish PM, including the current Prime Minister. Not sure they are that famous internationally though. In Russia - some folks from the art world. Ilya Glazunov, for example.

And from the UK that would be Cynthia Lennon - I stayed at her house on Mallorca a few years ago and Prince Michael.

natlee
18-10-2013, 22:01
What was he like? Did you talk to him? Like I said, very briefly. He was incredibly sweet, may he rest in peace.

natlee
18-10-2013, 22:10
My ex-husband had a 'habit' of running into famous people at airports/on planes etc. such as Dmitry Malikov, Evgeni Plushenko, Tatiana Totmianina & Maxim Marinin - and, best of all, Valentina Tereshkova.

TGP
18-10-2013, 22:10
Yes, I have, and even was on frienldy terms with one of them.

My inborm modesty does not allow me to tell who they are. :o

Alan65
18-10-2013, 22:10
Met many when DJing...most are arseholes, the only decent one was Mick Jagger, just wanted a beer in a club and not be bothered.

The worst was Bob Geldof, we threw him out of our bar.

Sana
18-10-2013, 22:12
Madonna is a bi**ch! :

Did you stand as her Security for two hours in the intense heat when she was working out in the morning?

Jack17
18-10-2013, 23:06
Coln Powell and Bill Clinton, but Coln was the Top Dog in my book :book:

Yes, Collin and Bill only have nice things to say about you too.

TolkoRaz
18-10-2013, 23:09
Yes, Collin and Bill only have nice things to say about you too.

Its Colin, not Collin! :p

TolkoRaz
18-10-2013, 23:10
Did you stand as her Security for two hours in the intense heat when she was working out in the morning?

Nope, I erected the scaffolding! :p

Jack17
18-10-2013, 23:12
. . . then why does he pronounce it "colon?"

TolkoRaz
18-10-2013, 23:17
. . . then why does he pronounce it "colon?"

Becoz he is American? :p

Colin Powell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jack17
18-10-2013, 23:24
Maybe on your next meeting (as a Brit) you could tactfully inform him that his given name is not the same as an internal body organ? I believe his parents were subjects of the British crown?

TolkoRaz
18-10-2013, 23:32
Maybe on your next meeting (as a Brit) you could tactfully inform him that his given name is not the same as an internal body organ? I believe his parents were subjects of the British crown?

I have not got a clue who his parents were, but he did tell me very interesting stories, above all, about how he travelled around the US of A in the 1960s etc - not a pleasant time for him or his coloured brothers or sisters.

A very enlightening man, an excellent military tactician and an even better SofS.

Sana
18-10-2013, 23:34
Nope, I erected the scaffolding! :p

Anyway. I am envious...I would give everything to be able to erect the scaffolding for her rehearsals while she works out in the intense heat,
You seem very lucky:::::)))))))

quincy
18-10-2013, 23:41
Madonna is a bi**ch!

being late by 90 minutes is not uncommon, but she is never late for her rehearsal!! :eek:

but Russians (among others) can't get enough of this narcissist!

TolkoRaz
18-10-2013, 23:45
Anyway. I am envious...I would give everything to be able to erect the scaffolding for her rehearsals while she works out in the intense heat,
You seem very lucky:::::)))))))

The scaffolding was in her temporary fitness room! She uses it to tone her ageing body!

Despite her character, I do respect 100% her work ethic and the way she punishes her body every day.

Sana
19-10-2013, 00:34
Wow!

TolkoRaz
19-10-2013, 01:07
Yep, I understand that the scaffolding and all those heaters travel everywhere overseas with her so that she does not miss her Phizz routine! She is clearly addicted and a very driven lady!

Benedikt
19-10-2013, 01:12
So u didn't meet no one famous then?

don't think you know what it is, so look it up in the internet. but cooking many years as a chef in many excellent hotels and restaurants i met and cooked of many famous people, presidents, prime ministers, head of states, church people and so forth. no need to boast about it here, it is no ones business. and definitely not yours!

Jack17
19-10-2013, 01:56
don't think you know what it is, so look it up in the internet. but cooking many years as a chef in many excellent hotels and restaurants i met and cooked of many famous people, presidents, prime ministers, head of states, church people and so forth. no need to boast about it here, it is no ones business. and definitely not yours!
Well said Benedikt. In fact, I was about to retain Tolka and Associates Ltd. for security on my next overseas trip. However, hearing how he dishes the dirt on poor Madonna - now I don't know.

Jas
19-10-2013, 13:45
don't think you know what it is, so look it up in the internet. but cooking many years as a chef in many excellent hotels and restaurants i met and cooked of many famous people, presidents, prime ministers, head of states, church people and so forth. no need to boast about it here, it is no ones business. and definitely not yours!

I wudn't want to meet someone famous as a cook anyhow. Besides, if u did meet someone famous but dont want to tell about it- why did u join me thread then?

Jas
19-10-2013, 13:47
it is no ones business. and definitely not yours!

Er, so how come ure on a thread about what famous personages did u meet? Duh......

Nobbynumbnuts
19-10-2013, 14:12
You had a chance to change the course of Russia's history and you missed it.......

Bit late for that. When i met him his best days were behind him! ;)

I was especially impressed meeting him as i remember very clearly him going to New York back in the 80's to see Ronald Regan. His motorcade suddenly stopped and he got out and started shaking hands with bystanders. It was amazing, everyone just new the world was changing.

Unfortunately he's not as popular inside Russia as he is outside. He could come and settle in the UK anytime he likes as far as i'm concerned...;)

Russian Lad
19-10-2013, 14:17
Unfortunately he's not as popular inside Russia as he is outside. He could come and settle in the UK anytime he likies as far as i'm concerned...

Yes, you in the West seem to have a soft spot for all Soviet/Russian traitors. :eh: Well, he is viewed as an idiot by most Russians even now. A rare case I agree with the crowd.:)

Nobbynumbnuts
19-10-2013, 14:28
Yes, you in the West seem to have a soft spot for all Russian traitors. :eh:

C'mon, how's he a traitor? He, along with others, saved the world from nuclear armageddon. :-)

Russian Lad
19-10-2013, 14:34
C'mon, how's he a traitor? He, along with others, saved the world from nuclear armageddon. :-)

Aha, yeah, right.:) Whom did he stop exactly?:) The Soviets never used nukes, unlike the US, if they ever used them, it would have been for retaliation of a similar nuke strike from the West.
He was a true find for the West - a dumb idiot running the whole USSR - Thatcher, Reagan and others must have felt all of a sudden like children abandoned by their parents in a chocolate shop. I think he is directly responsible for the collapse of the USSR - it could have developed along the Chinese model or something similar - there was no need for disintegration. I think if we hold a referendum right now, most Russians will gladly vote for his public execution broadcast on TV.

Nobbynumbnuts
19-10-2013, 14:51
Aha, yeah, right.:) Whom did he stop exactly?:) The Soviets never used nukes, unlike the US, if they ever used them, it would have been for retaliation of a similar nuke strike from the West.
He was a true find for the West - a dumb idiot running the whole USSR - Thatcher, Reagan and others must have felt like children in a chocolate shop.

RL, the CCCP had a huge array of nuclear weapons. I remember very clearly the early to mid 80's. We in the UK were used to seeing programs on the TV on 'what to do in the event of a nuclear strike' It was a real threat.
Regan pushed the CCCP with his 'Star Wars' program into realizing they couldn't keep up and had to be more accommodating. A more hardline leader would have pushed the world to the brink and then perhaps beyond.
It wasn't all Gorbachov's fault that communism was a failure-even though he was a believer.

Russian Lad
19-10-2013, 15:04
Regan pushed the CCCP with his 'Star Wars' program into realizing they couldn't keep up and had to be more accommodating. A more hardline leader would have pushed the world to the brink and then perhaps beyond.

Keep up with what? The Star Wars program is still mostly in the movies, and even today Russia's nukes arsenal will be enough to destroy a country like the GB like dozens of times, and the US - at least 2-3 times - even new warheads with separating nukes have been developed. Gorbi chose a stupid strategy, it brought the country to the collapse, that's all. The Chinese commies still prosper, so much so that they may become a leading global force in the near future - they just adapted to the new realities but it is still a communists-controlled and led country. A more hardline leader would have just quieted the republics with a few tank divisions, let some capitalism in and the life would continue. Gorbi faced the challenges he could not overcome because he was an idiot, someone smarter was needed. It was funny watching the West glorify him. :Loco: Well, I am sure Putin would be your new hero in no time if he made a few more republics independent, destroyed the remaining nuclear arsenal completely, preferably together with the army, gave the NO and Abkhazia to the Georgians, became vehemently anti-Assad, let gays marry and kissed the wide West's butt at every convenient opportunity in general. I am sure he would get the Nobel peace prize as well. That's how it works, really.

Jas
19-10-2013, 15:55
it could have developed along the Chinese model or something similar - there was no need for disintegration. .


So u want the CCCP but without the ideaolgy what that system was established for? So what's in it for u? Do u mean u wud want to rule over the stans of Central Asia? How come.... u dont like the people of the stans!
So it wud be a country without a ideaology ruling over people what it didnt want. And u seriously think that wud be good for Russia?

Russian Lad
19-10-2013, 16:03
So u want the CCCP but without the ideaolgy what that system was established for? So what's in it for u? Do u mean u wud want to rule over the stans of Central Asia? How come.... u dont like the people of the stans!

Well, first of all, I am ok with stan people, I lived in your beloved Tatarstan all my childhood. Secondly, it is not about likes and dislikes - it is about geopolitics. People who live in Alabama don't really like those who live in New York and most have never even met Californians in real life. They are still one country.:)

Ibanez
19-10-2013, 16:13
I almost met Russian Lad in St Pete's...but he cancelled :jester:

Russian Lad
19-10-2013, 16:16
We celebrities have tight schedules you know :jester:

Nobbynumbnuts
19-10-2013, 16:16
Keep up with what? The Star Wars program is still mostly in the movies, and even today Russia's nukes arsenal will be enough to destroy a country like the GB like dozens of times, and the US - at least 2-3 times - even new warheads with separating nukes have been developed. Gorbi chose a stupid strategy, it brought the country to the collapse, that's all. The Chinese commies still prosper, so much so that they may become a leading global force in the near future - they just adapted to the new realities but it is still a communists-controlled and led country. A more hardline leader would have just quieted the republics with a few tank divisions, let some capitalism in and the life would continue. Gorbi faced the challenges he could not overcome because he was an idiot, someone smarter was needed. It was funny watching the West glorify him. :Loco: Well, I am sure Putin would be your new hero in no time if he made a few more republics independent, destroyed the remaining nuclear arsenal completely, preferably together with the army, gave the NO and Abkhazia to the Georgians, became vehemently anti-Assad, let gays marry and kissed the wide West's butt at every convenient opportunity in general. I am sure he would get the Nobel peace prize as well. That's how it works, really.

RL, Reagan simply bankrupt the USSR with his Star Wars initiative. They had no money to compete or find solution to it. All they could do was sue for peace as Gorby did or launch a pre emptive strike and take us all to hell. Thank God he didn't take us all down.
Communism was f*cked, period! ;)

Ibanez
19-10-2013, 16:19
We celebrities have tight schedules you know :jester:

Yup, you're right!! My schedule is damn tight!!!

Russian Lad
19-10-2013, 16:27
RL, Reagan simply bankrupt the USSR with his Star Wars initiative. They had no money to compete or find solution to it. All they could do was sue for peace as Gorby did or launch a pre emptive strike and take us all to hell. Thank God he didn't take us all down.
Communism was f*cked, period!

You have a rather convoluted notion of these times. USSR also had hydrogen bombs, chemical weapons and so forth. The Western Europe could have been wiped clean many times over in case of a global conflict. The US still could be reached, star wars or whatever. But yes, increased military spendings was one of the mistakes.
Again, China is still controlled by the commies. Yes, they have changed the tactics, but they are still in firm control, firm as never before. Of course, you are welcome to neglect it for your convenience. Watch this:
China's Communist Party explained - YouTube

Nobbynumbnuts
19-10-2013, 17:21
You have a rather convoluted notion of these times. USSR also had hydrogen bombs, chemical weapons and so forth. The Western Europe could have been wiped clean many times over in case of a global conflict. The US still could be reached, star wars or whatever. But yes, increased military spendings was one of the mistakes.
Again, China is still controlled by the commies. Yes, they have changed the tactics, but they are still in firm control, firm as never before. Of course, you are welcome to neglect it for your convenience.

RL, chemical weapons etc. need to be delivered to the US to win the ideological conflict. The destruction of Europe was not the end game. The whole idea of star wars was a system that could shoot down inter continental missiles (actually not proven) but the USSR government believed they were so far behind the game that had no choice but to seek a peaceful solution.
Putin, gays, ladyboys is a side show.....;) :)

Russian Lad
19-10-2013, 17:25
The whole idea of star wars was a system that could shoot down inter continental missiles (actually not proven) but the USSR government believed they were so far behind the game that had no choice but to seek a peaceful solution.

What you mention was like one out of twenty-thirty factors, and far from being the most important one. It is just like saying Hitler lost the war because the USSR began producing Katushi - the argument on this poor level.
By the way, even if we assume it is true and it was the only determining factor, it only shows again what an idiot Gorbi was to believe in this.

FatAndy
19-10-2013, 17:57
Yes, you in the West seem to have a soft spot for all Soviet/Russian traitors. :eh: Well, he is viewed as an idiot by most Russians even now. A rare case I agree with the crowd.:)
Why viewed? He is. :voodoo:


Communism was f*cked, period! ;)
Once more, for you, the Great Specialist on USSR - communism never existed... yet ;)

Regarding Gorbi - I agree with RL, besides TV show. No need to kill, just kicking his ass somewhere out of the country is enough.

Jas
19-10-2013, 18:30
I dunno, Communism is good in certain ways, but I dont think China is doing so good cos of Communism, its cos of very cheap labour. So the only way a Communist Russia cud have competed wud have been to have zillions of people in gulags.
Russia is just amazing as it is, when I first arrived there in 2008 I just saw it as going to a rich, european country. And all that achieved in so short a time!

Jack17
19-10-2013, 18:47
"Star Wars Just in the Movies?" If so, then why is Putin protesting the US putting SM-3 Block II missiles in Poland and Romania?

Trillions have been spent since the 80's in developing the anti-missile defense system we have today. The defense acquisition programs formerly known as "Star Wars" have been subsumed under the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization (BMDO).

There is a very effective anti-missile defense shield today protecting the United States and the countries we defeated in WWII - Europe and Japan (now our de facto territories). There are billions more being spent as we speak on rail guns and lasers - real Star Wars stuff. Just remember RL, the US Defense Industry never sleeps.

FatAndy
19-10-2013, 18:53
Trillions have been spent since the 80's in developing the anti-missile defense system we have today. Just remember RL, the US Defense Industry never sleeps.
No disputes on these two sentences, bro...

Russian Lad
19-10-2013, 18:59
"Star Wars Just in the Movies?" If so, then why is Putin protesting the US putting SM-3 Block II missiles in Poland and Romania?

Trillions have been spent since the 80's in developing the anti-missile defense system we have today. The defense acquisition programs formerly known as "Star Wars" have been subsumed under the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization (BMDO).

There is a very effective anti-missile defense shield today protecting the United States and the countries we defeated in WWII - Europe and Japan (now our de facto territories). There are billions more being spent as we speak on rail guns and lasers - real Star Wars stuff. Just remember RL, the US Defense Industry never sleeps.

Yes, Jack, 100% effective - just in the movies, and even in the movies - rarely 100% effective, if ever - 3 or 4 nukes out of, say, 100 seep through - it will be more than enough...:7525: Besides, suicide bombers can be sent as well - by foot, by trains, on jet fighters, etc. Continue to spend the trillions and lose the sleep.:) 9/11 showed that loopholes can be found almost at no cost to neutralize and damage the most sophisticated and expensive systems.

Jack17
19-10-2013, 19:26
Sounds like you've solved the problem. Have you ever thought of working for the SVR? Seriously, you have the English language skills; you'd be perfect.

FatAndy
19-10-2013, 19:46
Sounds like you've solved the problem.
Yet in the end of 198x, with МББ and warheads launchpad of Topol' and later on Topol'-M.

Russian Lad
19-10-2013, 19:47
Sounds like you've solved the problem. Have you ever thought of working for the SVR? Seriously, you have the English language skills; you'd be perfect.

:eh: I will pass on that, till the next regime.:celebrate: I don't like the current one.


SS-25 & SS-27 Sickle , Russian Mobile ICBM Launcher "Topol" & "Topol-M" - YouTube

TolkoRaz
19-10-2013, 20:02
Yet in the end of 198x, with МББ and warheads launchpad of Topol' and later on Topol'-M.

If a Soviet submarine below the surface off the Eastern seaboard had launched a few Nuclear weapons, surely given the distance & reaction time of even the most advanced defensive systems, they would have struck the US of A before the President had been alerted and ushered to one of his many his Nuclear Bunkers?

Akula / Typhoon would surely manage a 'succesful' pre-emptive strike?

Russian Lad
19-10-2013, 20:07
If a Soviet submarine below the surface off the Eastern seaboard had launched a few Nuclear weapons, surely given the distance & reaction time of even the most advanced defensive systems, they would have struck the US of A before the President had been alerted and ushered to one of his many his Nuclear Bunkers?

Somehow I feel certain they will not want to find it out, defending the country with[-] laser pointers[/-] Star Wars equipment.:)

TolkoRaz
19-10-2013, 20:13
A nuclear explosion inside New York aboard a container ship is a far easier way to destroy the city. No Anti-Ballistic Missile System would defeat such an attack vector.

Jack17
19-10-2013, 20:31
With thinkers like Andy, RL and Tolka, the US Defense Industry, Homeland Security and the US Defense Department had better just lock the doors and go home.

Hey, we'll never know how well this stuff works until its used; but in the mean time, a lot of people are making a lot of money off of it.

Russian Lad
19-10-2013, 20:38
Hey, we'll never know how well this stuff works until its used; but in the mean time, a lot of people are making a lot of money off of it.

That's surely true. Well, initially my humble point to Nobby was that USSR didn't fall apart just because it ran out of money competing with your Star Wars project. It may have been just one of the reasons, and only because Gorbi was stupid.

Sana
19-10-2013, 20:53
Sounds like you've solved the problem. Have you ever thought of working for the SVR? Seriously, you have the English language skills; you'd be perfect.

No, RL, please never "sell yourself" to any of such people in Russia, They do not deserve clear and clever minds of Russia working for them.

Better choose a foreign organization of the kind....

Russian Lad
19-10-2013, 21:00
Better choose a foreign organization of the kind....

I am ok on my own.:)

Sana
19-10-2013, 21:12
No doubt you are!

Jas
19-10-2013, 21:19
RL, what do u think of the National Bolsheviks?

TolkoRaz
19-10-2013, 21:22
Hey, we'll never know how well this stuff works until its used; but in the mean time, a lot of people are making a lot of money off of it.

And keeping lots of people employed! ;)

Jack17
19-10-2013, 22:20
And keeping lots of people employed! ;)
Indeed. But remember, the most effective weapon is the one which is never used. As von Clausewitz said, "war is a continuation of politics by other means." It's the idea of a capability that makes international politics and diplomacy effective; to wit, the weapons of the United States (since Hiroshima and Nagasaki) have a very good track record of working. That is due in large measure to the billions invested in modelling & simulation and physical testing of those systems throughout their design and manufacture. No other country invests that kind of money in its weapons systems simply because no other country has that kind of money.

TolkoRaz
19-10-2013, 22:53
I agree.

'Deterrence' is the best weapon, but to successfully deter the enemy or those whom threaten, one has to look and mean business, either by technical superiority or by appearing robust and having that 'don't dare mess with me' look! ;)

Benedikt
20-10-2013, 00:41
Er, so how come ure on a thread about what famous personages did u meet? Duh......



and i still won't ell, non of your business. you asked if we met someone famous you did not ask that we should name all the names. and so i don't, as simple as that.

Jas
20-10-2013, 00:43
and i still won't ell, non of your business. you asked if we met someone famous you did not ask that we should name all the names. and so i don't, as simple as that.

Cos maybe there was none?

quincy
20-10-2013, 01:02
It wasn't all Gorbachov's fault that communism was a failure-even though he was a believer.

The Soviet system kept all of the different nationalisms under control - not bad, even a Jewish autonomous republic was created

post-Soviet, there have been many wars - Georgia/Abkhazia, Karabakh/Azerbaijan, Russia/Georgia and tensions Kirghistan/Uzbekistan, Russia/Ukraine (over Crimea), not to mention the Chechen crisis, rebellions, terrorism in Daghetsan, Ingushetia etc

TolkoRaz
20-10-2013, 01:06
The Soviet system kept all of the different nationalisms under control - not bad, even a Jewish autonomous republic was created

post-Soviet, there have been many wars - Georgia/Abkhazia, Karabakh/Azerbaijan, Russia/Georgia and tensions Kirghistan/Uzbekistan, Russia/Ukraine (over Crimea), not to mention the Chechen crisis, rebellions, terrorism in Daghetsan, Ingushetia etc

Moldova / Trans-Dnistria!

Azerbaijan / Armenia (Ngorno Karabakh & Nakichevan)

North Ossetia / South Ossetia

I could go on................!

TolkoRaz
20-10-2013, 01:10
Cos maybe there was none?

Jas, Head Chefs in leading brand hotels are usually introduced to the majority of VVIP guests. Benedikt is such a person. he will havemet many, many Heads of State etc and probably also has photos of himself with them - it is normal!

Furthermore, for security reasons to avoid the public etc, VVIPs are often brough through Back of House areas and use Service Lifts to transfer between the ground floor, or basement parking, and their suite which is normally on a floor booked for their sole use.

Jas
20-10-2013, 01:15
Jas, Head Chefs in leading brand hotels are usually introduced to the majority of VVIP guests. Benedikt is such a person. he will havemet many, many Heads of State etc and probably also has photos of himself with them - it is normal!

Furthermore, for security reasons to avoid the public etc, VVIPs are often brough through Back of House areas and use Service Lifts to transfer between the ground floor, or basement parking, and their suite which is normally on a floor booked for their sole use.

Its not the same cos its like humiliating or something. I was a waitress meself, so I know how I wud feel. I wud refuse to meet someone as a waitress. I wud want to meet them as a famous writer, or politician. But as a waitress?
Tolki, do u think in Pakistan, generals and diplomats are respecting servants? So no way wud I ever put meself in that position.
Now what ure doing is very fine and respectable also- in the military or bodyguard, its not the same as cooks and servants and drivers and if I had got me dream to be in the MET of course, I wud have loved to meet famous personages- even as a wpc.

TolkoRaz
20-10-2013, 01:26
Head Chefs in leading brand hotels are not servants, they are often part of the Hotel Management Team and sit alongside the F&B Director.

In Pakistan, I understand it is different, but not in Europe which is where Benedikt works.

Russian Lad
20-10-2013, 02:03
RL, what do u think of the National Bolsheviks?

The modern ones are a joke.:)

Ibanez
20-10-2013, 02:09
Jas, Head Chefs in leading brand hotels are usually introduced to the majority of VVIP guests. Benedikt is such a person. he will havemet many, many Heads of State etc and probably also has photos of himself with them - it is normal!

Furthermore, for security reasons to avoid the public etc, VVIPs are often brough through Back of House areas and use Service Lifts to transfer between the ground floor, or basement parking, and their suite which is normally on a floor booked for their sole use.

Tolko...snap!!! I'm pretty sure Ben has met plenty of famous personalities in his years as a chef, and likely fed a few too!!!:thumbsup:

Jack17
20-10-2013, 07:11
having that 'don't dare mess with me' look! ;)

Is that what W had?

I think there were only two US Presidents who had that "look." One was Eisenhower, not really a look so much as the person he was and the fact he led the greatest land invasion in the history of the world; the second was Reagan because he was a very good old school actor.

Now, probably the least intimidating President, because he was a cripple, was FDR. Neither Tojo nor Hitler took him seriously - that can also be a big mistake.

Benedikt
20-10-2013, 07:35
Cos maybe there was none?

to the end of your days....

VicY
20-10-2013, 09:46
I think he is directly responsible for the collapse of the USSR - it could have developed along the Chinese model or something similar - there was no need for disintegration.

Agreed 100%, RL.

VicY
20-10-2013, 09:58
So u want the CCCP but without the ideaolgy what that system was established for? So what's in it for u? Do u mean u wud want to rule over the stans of Central Asia? How come.... u dont like the people of the stans!
So it wud be a country without a ideaology ruling over people what it didnt want. And u seriously think that wud be good for Russia?


Jas, since you're replying to his comment about China, allow me to impress it on you that the ideology is still VERY much present in China mainland! What makes you think that it's gone??

Yes, they're adapting to the ever-changing environment - something the CPSU failed to do! - and doing a pretty damn good job of it!
The national anthem and the raising of the communist flag are done on a weekly basis in every Chinese school; Chinese pupils all wear those "red pioneer scarves" that we used to wear in Soviet schools; the hammer and sickle is on every official document; people have to study the "history of CCP" in high school and university; every school is obliged to teach the so called "national education", which is essentially a subject teaching one "how to love your motherland and the party" (it was because of this that 300,000 people in Hong Kong - mostly students - took to the streets last year, they were protesting against introduction of "national education" into Hong Kong curriculum and they won, for, let's face it, unlike China mainland, Hong Kong doesn't need it).

It's still very beneficial to be a party member. Even more beneficial if you manage to secure work with the government. All the land OFFICIALLY belongs to the government, so, even if you buy an apartment, your land lease is valid for 70 years, which is when you'd need to hand it back to the government.

I could go on...

Nobbynumbnuts
20-10-2013, 10:28
.....just kicking his ass somewhere out of the country is enough.


Give him to us then! :D

Jas
20-10-2013, 10:46
Jas, since you're replying to his comment about China, allow me to impress it on you that the ideology is still VERY much present in China mainland! What makes you think that it's gone??

Yes, they're adapting to the ever-changing environment - something the CPSU failed to do! - and doing a pretty damn good job of it!
The national anthem and the raising of the communist flag are done on a weekly basis in every Chinese school; Chinese pupils all wear those "red pioneer scarves" that we used to wear in Soviet schools; the hammer and sickle is on every official document; people have to study the "history of CCP" in high school and university; every school is obliged to teach the so called "national education", which is essentially a subject teaching one "how to love your motherland and the party" (it was because of this that 300,000 people in Hong Kong - mostly students - took to the streets last year, they were protesting against introduction of "national education" into Hong Kong curriculum and they won, for, let's face it, unlike China mainland, Hong Kong doesn't need it).

It's still very beneficial to be a party member. Even more beneficial if you manage to secure work with the government. All the land OFFICIALLY belongs to the government, so, even if you buy an apartment, your land lease is valid for 70 years, which is when you'd need to hand it back to the government.

I could go on...


What makes me think Communism is gone? Er, private wealth, home ownership, and oh yeah..... China's capitalist multi billion dollar machine that has created zillions of billionaires whereas in Communism even if u owned a cow they wud steal if from u.
As for the hammer and sickle and stuff, the reality is China is a capitalist powerhouse *econmoically* and what ure telling about is just window dressing.
Communism was all about economics..... u know like as in Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc etc.

Jas
20-10-2013, 10:50
All the land OFFICIALLY belongs to the government, so, even if you buy an apartment, your land lease is valid for 70 years, which is when you'd need to hand it back to the government.

I could go on...

Communism u can find in Nepal and in Peru also. In Cuba also u got and in North Korea u got Stalinism.

.

Russian Lad
20-10-2013, 11:12
Jas, since you're replying to his comment about China, allow me to impress it on you that the ideology is still VERY much present in China mainland!

Nobby, are you reading this?:) Hope you do, there is always a room for improving your education level and expanding cross-cultural horizons in general.:neiner:


Communism u can find in Nepal and in Peru also. In Cuba also u got and in North Korea u got Stalinism.

Jas, isn't stalinism just a version of communism?:)


so, even if you buy an apartment, your land lease is valid for 70 years, which is when you'd need to hand it back to the government.


What's the story about apartments in China, by the way? Does the state provide free housing? Can you inherit an apartment from your relatives and/or sell it?

VicY
20-10-2013, 12:02
What's the story about apartments in China, by the way? Does the state provide free housing? Can you inherit an apartment from your relatives and/or sell it?

Yes, you can, but again, the lease is only for 70 years, so after 70 years the place is supposed to be taken back by the government. In reality, though, it'd hardly happen as most people would sell the place before the lease expired or - which is more likely in modern China where all things are very transient - the building would be knocked down and a new one would be built. Nothing is meant to last long in China nowadays ;)

The state does provide accomodation that is semi-free (you pay symbolic rent) but that is for a relatively small amount of people and first of all - for those who are party members!

VicY
20-10-2013, 12:08
What makes me think Communism is gone? Er, private wealth, home ownership, and oh yeah..... China's capitalist multi billion dollar machine that has created zillions of billionaires whereas in Communism even if u owned a cow they wud steal if from u.
As for the hammer and sickle and stuff, the reality is China is a capitalist powerhouse *econmoically* and what ure telling about is just window dressing.
Communism was all about economics..... u know like as in Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc etc.

You haven't read what Andy has mentioned more than once: USSR had no communism but "developed socialism"! :D

Yes, we had free education, healthcare, housing.
Almost none of which is present in China. But they have no socialism there, at least not in economic terms.

And as for 'window dressing'....Jas, dear, we were talking about ideology. Every fool who has spent at least a couple of months in China understands that China's got no socialism and capitalist elements are very much present in their daily lives. HOWEVER, the party ideology, along with the truly communist concepts of control, are also present and flourishing in this country of 1.4 billion people.

FatAndy
20-10-2013, 12:15
If a Soviet submarine below the surface off the Eastern seaboard had launched a few Nuclear weapons, surely given the distance & reaction time of even the most advanced defensive systems, they would have struck the US of A before the President had been alerted and ushered to one of his many his Nuclear Bunkers?

Akula / Typhoon would surely manage a 'succesful' pre-emptive strike?
Soviet Union has took an obligation not to use nukes first. And fulfilled it.


Give him to us then! :D
Take... it... and I hope pizza will go better....

Jas
20-10-2013, 13:54
You haven't read what Andy has mentioned more than once: USSR had no communism but "developed socialism"! :D

Yes, we had free education, healthcare, housing.
Almost none of which is present in China. But they have no socialism there, at least not in economic terms.

And as for 'window dressing'....Jas, dear, we were talking about ideology. Every fool who has spent at least a couple of months in China understands that China's got no socialism and capitalist elements are very much present in their daily lives. HOWEVER, the party ideology, along with the truly communist concepts of control, are also present and flourishing in this country of 1.4 billion people.

Vicky, Communist ideaology is about economics and if the economic system is capitalist then u dont have communism- something u dont understand. The party ideaolgy is only about keeping control with the window dressing of communism for historical reasons. Also, u seem to think that a party wanting to control is a communist idea uniquely. Fascism and Islamism also can be just as controlling, though in different ways.

Also, cud u stop telling to me dear cos its not polite, it's like ure talking down to me or something.

Russian Lad
20-10-2013, 14:19
The party ideaolgy is only about keeping control with the window dressing of communism for historical reasons

Jas, VicY seems to have explained to you that it is not just a window dressing and the communism never existed. One of the prerequisites of communism is the abolition of money, for example. So, what you call communism is not the right term in the first place. Ideology is not only about economics, it is a much wider term. Besides, even back in the Soviet times Lenin introduced NEP (new economic policy), which allowed private enterprise. It was not for a long time, but this experiment showed even back then that two systems can live one inside another. Something the Chinese leaders implemented on their soil, on a much larger scale. It is like the Russian matreshka - one inside another and constituting the whole.

Jas
20-10-2013, 14:26
Jas, VicY seems to have explained to you that it is not just a window dressing and the communism never existed. One of the prerequisites of communism is the abolition of money, for example. So, what you call communism is not the right term in the first place. Ideology is not only about economics, it is a much wider term. Besides, even back in the Soviet times Lenin introduced NEP (new economic policy), which allowed private enterprise. It was not for a long time, but this experiment showed even back then that two systems can live one inside another. Something the Chinese leaders implemented on their soil, on a much larger scale. It is like the Russian matreshka - one inside another and constituting the whole.

U cant compare China's capitalist miracle which is of huge importance to some NEP men sellings bags of apples at Moscow railway stations! One reason, despite the scale of course- is the level of personal control what people got to make econmoic decisions in China, impossible under Communism.

Russian Lad
20-10-2013, 14:32
U cant compare China's capitalist miracle which is of huge importance to some NEP men sellings bags of apples at Moscow railway stations! One reason, despite the scale of course- is the level of personal control what people got to make econmoic decisions in China, impossible under Communism.

So, define communism for us. Was it in the USSR?
There was a lot of personal control in the USSR as well. Let me remind you, it was the first country to send a man to space, for example. It was the country that beat the nazi, after the whole Western Europe was on its knees in no time.:) If they were so smart, why were they such losers?:) You are just repeating the Western propaganda and hackneyed cliches over and over again, without thinking, it seems.
My personal opinion is that the Chinese miracle was possible largely because their communist leaders are still in control. Over 50% of private enterprises in China are owned by the Party, as I understand, and you are saying it is just a window dressing.
And the final point - I don't think it is wise to disagree with VicY on these matters since she actually lives there. Don't you think she may know better about China than me and you?:)

Jas
20-10-2013, 14:51
So, define communism for us. Was it in the USSR?
There was a lot of personal control in the USSR as well. Let me remind you, it was the first country to send a man to space, for example. It was the country that beat the nazi, after the whole Western Europe was on its knees in no time.:) If they were so smart, why were they such losers?:) You are just repeating the Western propaganda and hackneyed cliches over and over again, without thinking, it seems.
My personal opinion is that the Chinese miracle was possible largely because their communist leaders are still in control. Over 50% of private enterprises in China are owned by the Party, as I understand, and you are saying it is just a window dressing.
And the final point - I don't think it is wise to disagree with VicY on these matters since she actually lives there. Don't you think she may know better about China than me and you?:)



There's no great secret to China's success, its obvious. U got cheap labor, u got control, u got no workers' rights, u got no unions, and u got discipline. The only thing Communist is the poverty of the place that made the cheap labour possible- while the rest wud fit into a fascist scheme of things.

About what u told about Communism defeating Nazism. I think it was the Russian people rather than Communists.

Btw, the real Communists was sent to Solovetski very early after the revolution and Trotskyites was next. What followed was Bolshevism, that went to Stalinism, then national communism, then Sovietism, then perastoryka.

I studied Trotsky's ideas when I was at uni and in the Socialist Workers Party and that made a lot of sense to me, actually.

Jas
20-10-2013, 14:53
Over 50% of private enterprises in China are owned by the Party, as I understand, and you are saying it is just a window dressing.


Are u saying tons of billionaires is Communism?

Russian Lad
20-10-2013, 14:54
The only thing Communist is the poverty of the place that made the cheap labour possible- while the rest wud fit into a fascist scheme of things.

How come we don't see the same miracle in India? I employed an Indian for one month full time over Internet for as little as 100 dollars per month, and he was crying rivers after I didn't need his services anymore. India seems to have cheap labor in abundance, their remaining caste system allows for a cement-solid control, yet there are no miracles.


Are u saying tons of billionaires is Communism?

You still haven't defined communism and where it is present/was present.


Btw, the real Communists was sent to Solovetski very early after the revolution and Trotskyites was next. What followed was Bolshevism, that went to Stalinism, then national communism, then Sovietism, then perastoryka.

A rather interesting take on events. Can you refer to the years when there was "national communism" in the USSR (I understand it was some time right after Stalin, according to you) and supply me with a couple of links regarding that? I may discover something new about the history of Russia, after all.:)

Jas
20-10-2013, 14:55
Trotsky is a very interesting personage in my eyes cos what he was doing was trying to get some sort of decent society for his sect to live in- cos they was getting pogromed all the time just like what Ahmadis are suffering right now in Pakistan.

Jas
20-10-2013, 14:59
How come we don't see the same miracle in India? I employed an Indian for one month full time over Internet for as little as 100 dollars per month, and he was crying rivers after I didn't need his services anymore. India seems to have cheap labor in abundance, their remaining caste system allows for a cement-solid control, yet there are no miracles.



You still haven't defined communism and where it is present/was present.

Cos of course, Communism is superior to caste system. There's no doubt, cos caste system destroys initiative and traps people and Communism is great in the sense that it can make a peasant girl a welder, or a engineer, or even a cosmonaught. This is great!
India is *divided* cos of caste and sect and its trapped in very wasteful ways of production cos of feudalism. Also there's corruption, bad planning, and no discippline also.
Pakistan is even worse situation and in some ways, yes, we cud get something out of Communism as they have in Cuba and then once we got discipline we cud relax to Chinese style.

Jas
20-10-2013, 15:02
A rather interesting take on events. Can you refer to the years when there was "national communism" in the USSR (I understand it was some time right after Stalin, according to you) and supply me with a couple of links regarding that? I may discover something new about the history of Russia, after all.:)

Er, National Communism was when they brought back medals and stuff for the Red Army in the war and it was to 1956. Everyone knows...
When I was at uni I studied this in very great depth, not just stuff like what Vicky is telling, I had to read serious books and literature on all of this. I got a FIRST btw. So forget about trying to trip me up.

bydand
20-10-2013, 15:09
You still haven't defined communism and where it is present/was present.

I think there were some hippie communes in the States in the 70's.:bong:

Russian Lad
20-10-2013, 15:10
Er, National Communism was when they brought back medals and stuff for the Red Army in the war and it was to 1956. Everyone knows...
When I was at uni I studied this in very great depth, not just stuff like what Vicky is telling, I had to read serious books and literature on all of this. I got a FIRST btw. So forget about trying to trip me up.

National communism - till 1956. Can I see a couple of links regarding that (ANY source)? Surely Internet is so vast there must be something.:) I am curious as to the policies under the national communism in the USSR till 1956.

Jas
20-10-2013, 15:11
I think there were some hippie communes in the States in the 70's.:bong:

Trotsky came closest to defining it I think.

Jas
20-10-2013, 15:13
National communism - till 1956. Can I see a couple of links regarding that (ANY source)? Surely Internet is so vast there must be something.:) I am curious as to the policies under the national communism in the USSR till 1956.

Really? National Communism replaced any idea of Lenin's internationalism and if u dunno that, then u obvious missed Stalin dressing up like Napoleon- which is just what Trotsky predicted wud happen.

Jas
20-10-2013, 15:15
National communism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Russian Lad
20-10-2013, 15:15
Really? National Communism replaced any idea of Lenin's internationalism and if u dunno that, then u obvious missed Stalin dressing up like Napoleon- which is just what Trotsky predicted wud happen.

Let's deal with Lenin's detachment from communism later (big lol), right now I ask you to provide ANY link regarding the national communism system in the USSR till 1956, as you claimed. The first link you provided is a big fail - there is nothing there regarding the question. It just shows that the commies in other countries of the Block tried to use the term to gain more independence from the USSR.
The truth is, communism was always the objective since 1917 and throughout the Soviet history, but it was never attained or claimed to have been attained. Communists were like Christians - they believed the day will come.:) In China, they still are.
The second link above is a big fail again - quote to me something about the national communism system in the USSR till 1956 from there. Besides, you also claimed that stalinism was before national bolshevism, Stalin died in 1953, which doesn't leave us much room for national bolshevism in the first place. Jas, you have it all messed up in your head regarding this.:)

Jas
20-10-2013, 15:30
Let's deal with Lenin's detachment from communism later (big lol), right now I ask you to provide ANY link regarding the national communism system in the USSR till 1956, as you claimed. The first link you provided is a big fail - there is nothing there regarding the question. It just shows that the commies in other countries of the Block tried to use the term to gain more independence from the USSR.
The truth is, communism was always the objective since 1917 and throughout the Soviet history, but it was never attained or claimed to have been attained. Communists were like Christians - they believed the day will come.:)

No, cos the roots of National Communism is from 1929 when Stalin wanted Communism in just the CCCP and not to waste time doing what Trotsky wanted which was to export it.

Next? The next big leap of National Communism was when Stalin asked for Russia and used nationalism to win the war- and they brought back uniforms and medals like in Czarist times.

Next? National Communism was used to justify and show how great Russia was in ruling eastern europe.

Next? There was a big revolution in Hungary and it put National Communism in a bad light as oppressors, not liberators, and also other countries like in Yougalsviyah was using NC for they're own ideas and it wud mean less control from Moscow, so NC was not helping rule eastern europe.
So after 1956, they went to Sovietism which was to be socialist brothers against the west and to be equal partners. Duh, u dunno nothing about it RL.

Jas
20-10-2013, 15:33
Jas, you have it all messed up in your head regarding this.:)

Yeah right... I studied Trotsky from when I was 22 and getting aware of the world so u got no clue about me or nothing- as usual, thanks.

Russian Lad
20-10-2013, 15:33
So, links? ANY? National communism system in the USSR till 1956???

About Trotsky - how old are you? I am 38 - I may have known about Trotsky when you were still wearing diapers or even weren't in this world at all.:) Jas, this is really funny. What on earth makes you think that you know the Soviet history better than a former Soviet Pioneer and a son of a former Communist Party functionary?:)

Jas
20-10-2013, 15:34
So, links? ANY? National communism system in the USSR till 1956???

I just explained it for u, duh...
Links is for kids. Go and read a BOOK. Or better, go and read dozens of books which is what I done at uni.

FatAndy
20-10-2013, 15:41
Go and read a BOOK. Or better, go and read dozens of books which is what I done at uni.
Jas, I'm VERY sorry, but it seems to me, it hasn't helped... :o

Jas
20-10-2013, 16:04
So, links? ANY? National communism system in the USSR till 1956???

About Trotsky - how old are you? I am 38 - I may have known about Trotsky when you were still wearing diapers or even weren't in this world at all.:) Jas, this is really funny. What on earth makes you think that you know the Soviet history better than a former Soviet Pioneer and a son of a former Communist Party functionary?:)

I'm 29, so ure not me dad or something. I know about it cos I studied it, thats the point. U can ask me any question and I can answer that thanks. So off we go then...

Russian Lad
20-10-2013, 16:10
I'm 29, so ure not me dad or something. I know about it cos I studied it, thats the point. U can ask me any question and I can answer that thanks. So off we go then...

Andy, the second former Soviet Russian, also seems to be saying you didn't study that hard enough.:) You know, I also studied history at the Uni.:) And graduated when you were 14:).

Jas
20-10-2013, 16:19
Andy, the second former Soviet Russian, also seems to be saying you didn't study that hard enough.:) You know, I also studied history at the Uni.:) And graduated when you were 14:).

Yeah, which makes the fact u cant even think up a question for me all the sadder and stuff....

VicY
20-10-2013, 16:22
The truth is, communism was always the objective since 1917 and throughout the Soviet history, but it was never attained or claimed to have been attained. Communists were like Christians - they believed the day will come.:) In China, they still are.


Actually, the big and the almighty of China PRETEND they do :) In reality though, Chinese being a very pragmatic people, they realise that this day will never come. However, what will come is "prosperity for everyone" and that - of course! - will be achieved with the help of "our great CCP leaders"! :D

RL, I think you're wasting your breath on Jas :D

Jas
20-10-2013, 16:31
RL, I think you're wasting your breath on Jas :D

U guys have enough hot air for everyone. The problem is, ure ideas dont stand up to proper scrutiny cos anyone in 2013 telling that China is a Communist country clears doesnt know nothing.

VicY
20-10-2013, 16:36
You haven't been reading anything of what others wrote above.

I think I am done with this topic.

Matt24
20-10-2013, 17:20
I did a lot of work with Mobil over the last 10 years and spent time with the Malboro McLaren racing team, and some of the other F1'ers - happy days very glamourous stuff, I've met:

Kimi Raikkonen totally TAPS
Fernando Alonso / Tamara Ecclestone gits of the highest order
The Schumacher brothers / David Coulthard & Jenson Button very very nice but everso slightly dim.
Lewis Hamilton / Mark Webber / Jackie Stewart absolutely top blokes, kind funny, and totally in control.

I met Jose Mourhino several times, through some charity connections, he's totally charming, very very funny, when he's working an audience, but we met him once in a shop and my wife came close to abandoning not just me but the three kids as well - the guy has got style.

Jas
20-10-2013, 17:53
You haven't been reading anything of what others wrote above.

I think I am done with this topic.

Er, do u see me on me knees like ure pathetic little subbie, begging u to stay?
Not.
The topic isn't about China or all this stuff anyhow what ure telling about, check what's it about....... ure totally off topic and I only tolerated it out of kindness to u.

TolkoRaz
20-10-2013, 17:55
I did a lot of work with Mobil over the last 10 years and spent time with the Malboro McLaren racing team, and some of the other F1'ers - happy days very glamourous stuff, I've met:

Kimi Raikkonen totally TAPS
Fernando Alonso / Tamara Ecclestone gits of the highest order
The Schumacher brothers / David Coulthard & Jenson Button very very nice but everso slightly dim.
Lewis Hamilton / Mark Webber / Jackie Stewart absolutely top blokes, kind funny, and totally in control.

I met Jose Mourhino several times, through some charity connections, he's totally charming, very very funny, when he's working an audience, but we met him once in a shop and my wife came close to abandoning not just me but the three kids as well - the guy has got style.

How interesting - great guys - I assume that you work in the F1 world or work for a company which is a major FI sponsor or supplier (tyres , engines etc)

Jas
20-10-2013, 17:55
I did a lot of work with Mobil over the last 10 years and spent time with the Malboro McLaren racing team, and some of the other F1'ers - happy days very glamourous stuff, I've met:

Kimi Raikkonen totally TAPS
Fernando Alonso / Tamara Ecclestone gits of the highest order
The Schumacher brothers / David Coulthard & Jenson Button very very nice but everso slightly dim.
Lewis Hamilton / Mark Webber / Jackie Stewart absolutely top blokes, kind funny, and totally in control.

I met Jose Mourhino several times, through some charity connections, he's totally charming, very very funny, when he's working an audience, but we met him once in a shop and my wife came close to abandoning not just me but the three kids as well - the guy has got style.


Well I'm sure u got even better style and that's why ure wife loves u to bits more than anyone in this world.

Jack17
20-10-2013, 19:48
There's no great secret to China's success, its obvious. U got cheap labor, u got control, u got no workers' rights, u got no unions, and u got discipline. The only thing Communist is the poverty of the place that made the cheap labour possible- while the rest wud fit into a fascist scheme of things.

Very concise and very accurate. The Chinese business/government relationship is far closer to the Fascist than the Communist model.

Matt24
20-10-2013, 20:01
How interesting - great guys - I assume that you work in the F1 world or work for a company which is a major FI sponsor or supplier (tyres , engines etc)

I worked for a Russian business that bought and continues to buy significantly huge amounts of engine oil and synthetic lubricants, it's amazing the access you get to all the toys and events if you spend enough - Mobil 1 is a huge part of the technical set up of F1 and they were very keen on keeping our account.

VicY
20-10-2013, 21:07
Er, do u see me on me knees like ure pathetic little subbie, begging u to stay?
Not.
The topic isn't about China or all this stuff anyhow what ure telling about, check what's it about....... ure totally off topic and I only tolerated it out of kindness to u.

:jester:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Jas
20-10-2013, 21:47
Very concise and very accurate. The Chinese business/government relationship is far closer to the Fascist than the Communist model.

Thank u Jack, cos what I am telling is not based on how Vicky and RL are looking at it, or Fat Andy. They got this very strange desire to link China's success with Communism! Yeah, right.
Can u explain to them, no one in the west sees China the way they do.

Jack17
20-10-2013, 21:57
Thank u Jack, cos what I am telling is not based on how Vicky and RL are looking at it, or Fat Andy. They got this very strange desire to link China's success with Communism! Yeah, right.
Can u explain to them, no one in the west sees China the way they do.
I'm not a professional economist; but as best I can determine, Western Economists would describe the People's Republic as a state supported semi-free market economy.

I would say that the big difference between China and the US is that in the US, the banks decide which businesses get the money and in China, the government (nominally described as Communist) decides who gets the money. The Chinese State essentially invests its money in the Chinese free market economy.

Now, in Russia, the "State" (aka Putin and his clique of oligarchs) invests most of the State's money in their own Swiss and New York bank accounts and personal real estate holdings around the world; hence, there is only an economy based on the export of natural resources - exactly as that which exists in the Congo. In short, it's not really an economy at all; it's a kleptocracy.

Jas
20-10-2013, 22:04
I'm not a professional economist; but as best I can determine, Western Economists would describe the People's Republic as a state supported semi-free market economy.

I would say that the big difference between China and the US is that in the US, the banks decide which businesses get the money and in China, the government (nominally described as Communist) decides who gets the money. The Chinese State essentially invests its money in the Chinese free market economy.

.

That's just what I was telling also about China also, Jack. But they dont know nothing even.

VicY
21-10-2013, 08:15
I'm not a professional economist; but as best I can determine, Western Economists would describe the People's Republic as a state supported semi-free market economy.

I would say that the big difference between China and the US is that in the US, the banks decide which businesses get the money and in China, the government (nominally described as Communist) decides who gets the money. The Chinese State essentially invests its money in the Chinese free market economy.

Now, in Russia, the "State" (aka Putin and his clique of oligarchs) invests most of the State's money in their own Swiss and New York bank accounts and personal real estate holdings around the world; hence, there is only an economy based on the export of natural resources - exactly as that which exists in the Congo. In short, it's not really an economy at all; it's a kleptocracy.

So now you're an expert on China, Jack?
All right, suit yourself then.

One thing: China is nowhere near the "Fascist model" that you say they are. They are way too pragmatic for this.

Jas
21-10-2013, 08:47
So now you're an expert on China, Jack?
All right, suit yourself then.

One thing: China is nowhere near the "Fascist model" that you say they are. They are way too pragmatic for this.

Uve obviously never heard of Mussolini's principle of the Corporate State, have u? Duh.

Jack17
21-10-2013, 08:51
So now you're an expert on China, Jack?
All right, suit yourself then.

One thing: China is nowhere near the "Fascist model" that you say they are. They are way too pragmatic for this.
Well, you make a statement - support it. The Nazis economy of Germany was the envy of the world in the 1930's. Hitler took Germany from deep economic depression to a full employment economy. He was the Deng Zhao Ping of his day.

I agree, the Chinese are far more level headed and practical than to invade Russia; but no, economically, Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany are remarkably similar to today's Chinese "State Supported" economy.

If you disagree, why don't you educate me and tell me how they are different rather than just hurl insults?

Jas
21-10-2013, 08:55
Well, you make a statement - support it. The Nazis economy of Germany was the envy of the world in the 1930's. Hitler took Germany from deep economic depression to a full employment economy. He was the Deng Zhao Ping of his day.

I agree, the Chinese are far more level headed and practical than to invade Russia; but no, economically, Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany are remarkably similar to today's Chinese "State Supported" economy.

If you disagree, why don't you educate me and tell me how they are different rather than just hurl insults?

Forget her Jack, just a troll. Not worth responding to.

Jas
21-10-2013, 08:57
If you disagree, why don't you educate me and tell me how they are different rather than just hurl insults?

Report this bad stuff what this personage is doing to the mods.... She's be on both our backs for days. U wud think they wud have something better to do, wudn't u?
Wasn't so long back she was squealing about getting insulted. Now look at the reality of how she is acting.

penka
21-10-2013, 09:10
Well, you make a statement - support it. The Nazis economy of Germany was the envy of the world in the 1930's. Hitler took Germany from deep economic depression to a full employment economy. He was the Deng Zhao Ping of his day.

I agree, the Chinese are far more level headed and practical than to invade Russia; but no, economically, Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany are remarkably similar to today's Chinese "State Supported" economy.

If you disagree, why don't you educate me and tell me how they are different rather than just hurl insults?

Well, Hitler did just the same as President Roosevelt when the latter led the country out of Depression. Does that make F.D.R. the American Deng or America a fascist state?

penka
21-10-2013, 09:12
So now you're an expert on China, Jack?
All right, suit yourself then.

One thing: China is nowhere near the "Fascist model" that you say they are. They are way too pragmatic for this.

And on China too. Do you doubt that, Vicks?:D

Jas
21-10-2013, 09:28
Well, Hitler did just the same as President Roosevelt when the latter led the country out of Depression. Does that make F.D.R. the American Deng or America a fascist state?

Er, did America push workers at gunpoint during that time, or no? Did they have democracy and freedom also, or no?
The answers are obvious so why compare America to that?

penka
21-10-2013, 09:41
Er, did America push workers at gunpoint during that time, or no? Did they have democracy and freedom also, or no?
The answers are obvious so why compare America to that?

You are missing the point, Jas.

But, taking over Germany, ruined after WWI, Hitler was not "pushing workers at gunpoint", funnily enough. Labour camps, pioneered by the British and perfected by Stalin, were implemented by the Nazi Germany somewhat later than 1933.

Russian Lad
21-10-2013, 09:41
Jack, you may call them fascists, but at present they are the only feasible threat to the global US hegemony.
P.S. I am glad that you and Jas can maintain a fruitful and mutually beneficial intellectual discussion, agree on most of the points and tell native Russians a lot about the USSR history.:) It is especially refreshing to see you both educating ViCy on China, who lives there, speaks the language and so forth. I only wish I could be so clever and dashing. Please continue, I am enjoying this.:)

Jas
21-10-2013, 09:45
You are missing the point, Jas.

But, taking over Germany, ruined after WWI, Hitler was not "pushing workers at gunpoint", funnily enough. Labour camps, pioneered by the British and perfected by Stalin, were implemented by the Nazi Germany somewhat later than 1933.

Really? So human rights can be excluded from comparison of economic systems of the USA, Nazi Germany and the CCCP? No, YOU'RE missing the point.

After 1933? No, cos ure rong again. Dachau was set up outside Munich as soon as Hitler came to power- 1933, not later than, so again, ure totally rong. I was to Dachau when I was in Munich and there was FORCED LABOR.
Ure ideas are very very dangerous actually.

Jas
21-10-2013, 09:46
You are missing the point, Jas.

But, taking over Germany, ruined after WWI, Hitler was not "pushing workers at gunpoint", funnily enough. Labour camps, pioneered by the British and perfected by Stalin, were implemented by the Nazi Germany somewhat later than 1933.

Check what's wrote on the gate at Dachau: "Arbeit Macht Frei."
And I'm missing the point?

Russian Lad
21-10-2013, 09:48
Penka, you may find your task unbearably challenging. I tried yesterday and I failed miserably.:)

Jas
21-10-2013, 09:49
Penka, cos u kind of people like links, here's one for u.
Dachau, set up in 1933, by Himmler, for the purpose of FORCED LABOUR.

Read it now.

Dachau concentration camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jas
21-10-2013, 09:51
Penka, you may find your task unbearably challenging. I tried yesterday and I failed miserably.:)

No forced labour in Nazi Germany and so u can compare Nazi Germany to America?
Ashamed of ure own passed, ure trying to normalize mass slaughter and this is just SICK.

Russian Lad
21-10-2013, 09:54
No forced labour in Nazi Germany and so u can compare Nazi Germany to America?
Ashamed of ure own passed, ure trying to normalize mass slaughter and this is just SICK.

Me??? My name is not Penka, dear.:) Please keep up with the conversation. Penka, however, made this comparison in a certain context that you threw out of the window. Suit yourself, Jas, I am not debating with you.:)

Jas
21-10-2013, 09:59
Comparing Nazi Germany to Britain is a attempt to "normalize," to come to terms with something terrible in ure own past, by normalizing it.
But to us from the west, believe me, u got to realize what u sound like..

Jas
21-10-2013, 10:02
And still nothing from Penka on the issue of Dachau which PROVES she is totally rong.

Russian Lad
21-10-2013, 10:05
How is your Baltika-9 today?:) Штырит?:)

penka
21-10-2013, 10:16
Ashamed of ure own passed, ure trying to normalize mass slaughter and this is just SICK.

This phrase alone is worth marvelling at. "Ure own passed"??? "Normalize mass slaughter"????

Jas, for your own sake, please be careful about your drinking habits!

penka
21-10-2013, 10:19
Comparing Nazi Germany to Britain is a attempt to "normalize," to come to terms with something terrible in ure own past, by normalizing it.
But to us from the west, believe me, u got to realize what u sound like..

Well, the concept of concentration camps were invented by the British. Implemented on the territories, neighbouring with you homeland. Sorry for the uncomfortable fact.

Suuryaa
21-10-2013, 10:27
Now, in Russia, the "State" (aka Putin and his clique of oligarchs) invests most of the State's money in their own Swiss and New York bank accounts and personal real estate holdings around the world; hence, there is only an economy based on the export of natural resources - exactly as that which exists in the Congo. In short, it's not really an economy at all; it's a kleptocracy.

Good description.

Jas
21-10-2013, 11:05
Well, the concept of concentration camps were invented by the British. Implemented on the territories, neighbouring with you homeland. Sorry for the uncomfortable fact.

Again, more nonesense cos there was no camps or nothing like that in pre-partition India.
Ure trying to tell like this: "U know, Soviet history isn't so bad. Look what the British done. Things are ok, no problem."

Ure trying to come to terms with ure history by linking ureselfes to Britain and it just doesn't work out- at all.
Same thing was yesterday, ure trying to desperately link ureselfes to China to prove Communism wasn't a total failure (compared to what cud have been anyway) by telling like this: "Communism is ok, we wasnt totally rong, China proves it wasnt so bad afterall."

This is called "RELATIVISM" and its cos u cant admit to the past. Sad. Especially when u drag countries like Britain into it cos it just sounds so ridiculous what ure telling.
Soviet side is one thing.... but when u start whitewashing Nazis by telling there was no forced labour blah blah blah, that's totally off the scale.

Jas
21-10-2013, 11:07
Well, the concept of concentration camps were invented by the British. Implemented on the territories, neighbouring with you homeland. Sorry for the uncomfortable fact.

Total lies.
Thanks for the cheap shot also against me cos of me background. But me background works for me as it just allows me to show how rong u are.

Russian Lad
21-10-2013, 11:23
Ure trying to come to terms with ure terrible history

Every country's history is full of dark and bright moments, our history is not more terrible than that of any given country. Yawn. Not so long ago the Brits were whacking their queens and kings at the slightest pretext and the Americans were butchering each other in the Civil War. Such things happened, they will be happening again. We are like animals, Jas.:) And maybe even worse, animals rarely kill their own species just for fun, if ever.

TolkoRaz
21-10-2013, 11:31
Penka, I am not sure the British invented Concentration Camps, but they did create Prisoner of War & Work Camps initially during the Boer War(?).

I understand 'Concentration' Camps to mean those created to kill the occupants on a mass scale (Bernau, Dachau, Bergen Belsen etc)

I might be wrong, but that is my understanding.

Jas
21-10-2013, 12:32
Penka, I am not sure the British invented Concentration Camps, but they did create Prisoner of War & Work Camps initially during the Boer War(?).

I understand 'Concentration' Camps to mean those created to kill the occupants on a mass scale (Bernau, Dachau, Bergen Belsen etc)

I might be wrong, but that is my understanding.

Yeah, like where was the Auschwits and the Dachaus in India?
C, Tolki, what they are trying to do is 'normalize' for psycholojical reasons.
Its like a girl who is getting bad stuff from her family and when she is with the psycolojist she tells like this, "Er, its ok cos white girls get the same stuff what's happening to me, from guys or whatever."
The psycholojist wud tell in reply; "You are trying to normalize this abuse, but its NOT normal."

Same thing is here: they are trying to normalize millions of people what got killed for nothing by pointing at Britain and inventing stuff to feel normal about all the abuse what's in they're passed. This is exactly what a phsycoljist wud be telling 100%.

Matt24
21-10-2013, 12:33
Well, the concept of concentration camps were invented by the British. Implemented on the territories, neighbouring with you homeland. Sorry for the uncomfortable fact.

Don't you got Wikipedia? Americans during the Van Bueren (spelling ?) administration in 1838 invented the concentration camp method - if you're going to inherit the Yalspeare mantel do the bloomin' research.

Jas
21-10-2013, 12:35
Don't you got Wikipedia? Americans during the Van Bueren (spelling ?) administration in 1838 invented the concentration camp method - if you're going to inherit the Yalspeare mantel do the bloomin' research.

They wont cos its pshycoljical.

penka
21-10-2013, 12:52
Penka, I am not sure the British invented Concentration Camps, but they did create Prisoner of War & Work Camps initially during the Boer War(?).

I understand 'Concentration' Camps to mean those created to kill the occupants on a mass scale (Bernau, Dachau, Bergen Belsen etc)

I might be wrong, but that is my understanding.

Strauss composed waltzes. So did Tchaikovsky and Schubert. All different, naturally. Still they are waltzes, no?

penka
21-10-2013, 12:54
Don't you got Wikipedia? Americans during the Van Bueren (spelling ?) administration in 1838 invented the concentration camp method - if you're going to inherit the Yalspeare mantel do the bloomin' research.

You get all your knowledge from the wiki?

penka
21-10-2013, 12:55
Yeah, like where was the Auschwits and the Dachaus in India?
C, Tolki, what they are trying to do is 'normalize' for psycholojical reasons.
Its like a girl who is getting bad stuff from her family and when she is with the psycolojist she tells like this, "Er, its ok cos white girls get the same stuff what's happening to me, from guys or whatever."
The psycholojist wud tell in reply; "You are trying to normalize this abuse, but its NOT normal."

Same thing is here: they are trying to normalize millions of people what got killed for nothing by pointing at Britain and inventing stuff to feel normal about all the abuse what's in they're passed. This is exactly what a phsycoljist wud be telling 100%.

Jas, you made some money, teaching Inglish?

Jack's right. You r one very smart gal.

Jas
21-10-2013, 13:34
Strauss composed waltzes. So did Tchaikovsky and Schubert. All different, naturally. Still they are waltzes, no?

Yeah, and if u murder someone, try telling to the judge that just cos someone else done a murder and got off with it- u shud also.
This is called relativism and its used by 2 kinds of people: fanatics and in the case of u guys, people in denial.

Jas
21-10-2013, 13:36
Jas, you made some money, teaching Inglish?

Jack's right. You r one very smart gal.

I was getting 19,000 roubles a month in Sakha and it was ok cos its not bad, actually and room was free also.

OzPara
21-10-2013, 14:08
I just explained it for u, duh...
Links is for kids. Go and read a BOOK. Or better, go and read dozens of books which is what I done at uni.

Jas, reading a book doesn't infer a higher level of understanding than others. That's just academic arrogance. Reading dozens, or even hundreds of books doesn't make you more intelligent than someone who hasn't.

Reading gives you knowledge. Living gives you experience. The ability to listen to those who have done both - that allows you to gain a perspective that you wouldn't otherwise get.

Do yourself a favour, a very big favour. Stop. Listen. Ask questions that will challenge your own polarised beliefs. Respect yourself and others.

Not everything can be learned from the pages of some text book, and a life is not built from others' fantasies.

It's okay to challenge others' thinking, but try to curb your enthusiasm/passion lest you are forever judged as arrogant and disrespectful. I value the opinions of people who have lived in a situation (such as the FSU) and can articulate their thoughts and perspectives intelligently and with passion. I read Marx when I was very young, studied the big bad C (as much as I could in a paranoid society) and have no f***ing idea what it meant to be a citizen of the USSR. No more so than you could understand what it was like to grow up in a country that lacked identity, founded on the forced labour camps that you seem to think were the sole purview of the Nazi's, a country where a version apartheid was practised until relatively recently (late last century - in my living memory).

Uncomfortable truths are just that - uncomfortable. You can be a gentler person when you stop making "it" all about you. You have your own experiences; some sad, some wonderful and yet others that fill all the gaps. You are not the sole arbiter of what is right or wrong though. No-one is.

People have opinions. Right or wrong. This is mine. How you respond is your business (if you respond at all). I respect that - do you respect mine, or others?

Tread lightly. You are a guest in a country that has so many layers it makes you eyes water. Exhale... Inhale.... repeat

Jas
21-10-2013, 14:23
Jas, reading a book doesn't infer a higher level of understanding than others. That's just academic arrogance. Reading dozens, or even hundreds of books doesn't make you more intelligent than someone who hasn't.

Reading gives you knowledge. Living gives you experience. The ability to listen to those who have done both - that allows you to gain a perspective that you wouldn't otherwise get.

Do yourself a favour, a very big favour. Stop. Listen. Ask questions that will challenge your own polarised beliefs. Respect yourself and others.

Not everything can be learned from the pages of some text book, and a life is not built from others' fantasies.

It's okay to challenge others' thinking, but try to curb your enthusiasm/passion lest you are forever judged as arrogant and disrespectful. I value the opinions of people who have lived in a situation (such as the FSU) and can articulate their thoughts and perspectives intelligently and with passion. I read Marx when I was very young, studied the big bad C (as much as I could in a paranoid society) and have no f***ing idea what it meant to be a citizen of the USSR. No more so than you could understand what it was like to grow up in a country that lacked identity, founded on the forced labour camps that you seem to think were the sole purview of the Nazi's, a country where a version apartheid was practised until relatively recently (late last century - in my living memory).

Uncomfortable truths are just that - uncomfortable. You can be a gentler person when you stop making "it" all about you. You have your own experiences; some sad, some wonderful and yet others that fill all the gaps. You are not the sole arbiter of what is right or wrong though. No-one is.

People have opinions. Right or wrong. This is mine. How you respond is your business (if you respond at all). I respect that - do you respect mine, or others?

Tread lightly. You are a guest in a country that has so many layers it makes you eyes water. Exhale... Inhale.... repeat

What total rubbish. People told about India before 1947, trying to tell the British had camps and this is not true at all.
No I definetly dont respect such views what are trying to normalize mass murder thru relativism. I understand that there are pshcolijical reasons for doing this.....but I dont respect the opinion cos when u try to normalize mass murder ure not respecting no one, ure enabling the worst kind of disrepect, and its not worthy of respect in any way. I dont think these are evil people, but they are deluded cos of they're own history which means they got to project, as I explained- just like abuse victims do. There is nothing really valuable in respecting a opinion if that opinion is not worthy of respect- such as normalizing mass murder thru relativism.
As for me being a guest..... thats something that might have washed with me mum when she arrived to the UK in 1974, but I am a EU citizen, I live in the EU, I will stay in the EU and fck places like Iran and North Korea and any other place u want to mention and I'LL TELL WHAT I WANT cos silence in the face of relativism isnt the way to go.
Do I respect what u told above? No of course I dont. None whatsoever, thanks. I stood in Dachau and was just numbed and no way wud I ever show disrespect to that experience by agreeing with relativist argument TRASH.

OzPara
21-10-2013, 14:41
And so you prove yourself to be just what you are perceived to be.

Go back to your books then. Don't confuse relativism, normalisation and justification with each other. And look in an atlas - you're not in the EU.

As I said, I respect your right to have an opinion - just as I respect your right to be a fraud, or to foment disruption wherever you go because it pleases you, or to pretend that you know about things that you don't. I'm sure you believe you are right. Just as I'm sure you have normalised your arrogance and violence by declaring it is your right to freedom. You should think about the difference between freedom and liberty.

Anyway, rant on... It's what you're good at after all ;)

TTFN



What total rubbish. People told about India before 1947, trying to tell the British had camps and this is not true at all.
No I definetly dont respect such views what are trying to normalize mass murder thru relativism. I understand that there are pshcolijical reasons for doing this.....but I dont respect the opinion cos when u try to normalize mass murder ure not respecting no one, ure enabling the worst kind of disrepect, and its not worthy of respect in any way. I dont think these are evil people, but they are deluded cos of they're own history which means they got to project, as I explained- just like abuse victims do. There is nothing really valuable in respecting a opinion if that opinion is not worthy of respect- such as normalizing mass murder thru relativism.
As for me being a guest..... thats something that might have washed with me mum when she arrived to the UK in 1974, but I am a EU citizen, I live in the EU, I will stay in the EU and fck places like Iran and North Korea and any other place u want to mention and I'LL TELL WHAT I WANT cos silence in the face of relativism isnt the way to go.
Do I respect what u told above? No of course I dont.

Jas
21-10-2013, 15:04
[QUOTE=OzPara;1232637]

Go back to your books then. Don't confuse relativism, normalisation and justification with each other. And look in an atlas - you're not in the EU.

/QUOTE]

Er, Sweden was in the EU since 1995. Duh.

Jas
21-10-2013, 15:35
Just as I'm sure you have normalised your arrogance and violence by declaring it is your right to freedom.
TTFN

What's he on about? He wud like this to happen to me....
Pathetic.
No Doubt - It's My Life - YouTube

VicY
21-10-2013, 18:16
Well, you make a statement - support it. The Nazis economy of Germany was the envy of the world in the 1930's. Hitler took Germany from deep economic depression to a full employment economy. He was the Deng Zhao Ping of his day.

I agree, the Chinese are far more level headed and practical than to invade Russia; but no, economically, Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany are remarkably similar to today's Chinese "State Supported" economy.

If you disagree, why don't you educate me and tell me how they are different rather than just hurl insults?

Please direct me to the post where I "hurled insults" at you??

I doubt you or the poster you so vehemently stand by ever set foot in China, yet, somehow, you know what it's like down there? I am using your own argument when talking about the US.

China's model was brought to attention because the question of ideology was mentioned. IDEOLOGY. So, what I pointed out is that it's thanks to their ideology that they managed to keep their country together (the issue of the USSR collapse had been discussed prior to that). That ideology is, in many respects, still very collectivist-communist, and it's also very much at work in this country.
The control they exercise over their people's daily lives is also very communist, the only difference being that it became less stringent after Deng Xiao Ping's reforms. Something similar happened in the late USSR, by the way.

Ideologically, China sticks with its communist model. Yes, it's a modified version of communism, everyone realises it. But then, it's this very model that makes China what it is and helps to keep the world's largest population together.

Nobbynumbnuts
21-10-2013, 18:29
Well, the concept of concentration camps were invented by the British.....

...and don't don't forget we invented the sandwich too! :D

Russian Lad
21-10-2013, 18:30
...and don't don't forget we invented the sandwich too!

No need to be nervous, we are still glad to see you.:)

FatAndy
21-10-2013, 18:38
...and don't don't forget we invented the sandwich too! :D
...and right-wheel cars...

Btnaughton
21-10-2013, 20:28
Guys, you met any famous personages in ure life?

I met Bilawal Bhutto, Altaf Hussain (he pinched me face, dunno if that counts) and Marc Almond and believe me, it was the latter what was most interesting....

As a cheff, I've met a shitton.

Best convo - Chelsea Clinton
Most fun - Robert Downey Jr circa 1999(wasn't a chef then)
most disgusting - Chasey Lain (bloodhound gang wrote a song about her)
Most friendly - the guy who played big pussy on sopranos
hung out with anti flag
Dj funk-always drunk, hence we got along

Many many many more.

Sana
21-10-2013, 20:47
Wow!

Btnaughton
21-10-2013, 20:54
Seriously, it took a week of scalding hot showers to feel clean after meeting Ms.Lain.

finnandcork
21-10-2013, 21:18
What total rubbish. People told about India before 1947, trying to tell the British had camps and this is not true at all.
No I definetly dont respect such views what are trying to normalize mass murder thru relativism. I understand that there are pshcolijical reasons for doing this.....but I dont respect the opinion cos when u try to normalize mass murder ure not respecting no one, ure enabling the worst kind of disrepect, and its not worthy of respect in any way. I dont think these are evil people, but they are deluded cos of they're own history which means they got to project, as I explained- just like abuse victims do. There is nothing really valuable in respecting a opinion if that opinion is not worthy of respect- such as normalizing mass murder thru relativism.
As for me being a guest..... thats something that might have washed with me mum when she arrived to the UK in 1974, but I am a EU citizen, I live in the EU, I will stay in the EU and fck places like Iran and North Korea and any other place u want to mention and I'LL TELL WHAT I WANT cos silence in the face of relativism isnt the way to go.
Do I respect what u told above? No of course I dont. None whatsoever, thanks. I stood in Dachau and was just numbed and no way wud I ever show disrespect to that experience by agreeing with relativist argument TRASH.

The US had many camps---noted by "democide expert, and coiner of term", RJ Rummel where the sole purpose was to murder the inhabitants...down the road from our house is a lovely sounding hamlet called Round Valley. It is round and in the center was a concentration camp.http://www.revcom.us/a/v19/910-19/917/rndvaly.htm

Also, The Day the Great Spirit Died chronicles every act of terror committed by the US government, either by proxy or in person against California Indians.The same occurred elsewhere in the US, Lakota and Ute were rounded up and worked/starved to death, thousands were killed this way. The fact that they fought back--imagine--afew hundred Warsaw Ghetto Uprisings--doesn't make it a "war"....or a "clash of civilizations".


“Hitler’s concept of concentration camps as well as the practicality of genocide owed much, so he claimed, to his studies of English and United States history. He admired the camps for Boer prisoners in South Africa and for the Indians in the wild west; and often praised to his inner circle the efficiency of America’s extermination – by starvation and uneven combat – of the red savages who could not be tamed by captivity.”



– P. 202, “Adolph Hitler” by John Toland


Moving to Ireland, the English killed, in 800 years over 4-8 million Irish. Many of the same "camp" situations occurred, usually it was active negligence, such as the "forced starvation" or massacres like Drogheda. The forced starvations in India, by Britain were worse, meaning they had a higher death toll, although its hard to say whats worse: dying through lack of food in Magadan, on an Irish beach, in an Indian latrine.
. John Michael, The Way of the Aggressor, (Flanders Hall, 1941). During the Boer War, (1899-1902), the British created the first concentration camps, in which “26,663 women and children died,” p. 69. And, in India between 1860 and 1900, it is estimated “thirty million” starved to death under British rule, p. 64.
Mike Davis has called the thirty million or so deaths on the Indian subcont. "The Late Victorian Holocaust".
http://www.celdf.org/downloads/NATURE%20and%20EMPIRE%20-%20LAXMAN%20SATYA%20ARTICLE.pdf
I wont include the democide of Mau Maus, Aboriginal Australians and NZers, Africans etc by Queen Victoria...or the 10 million slaughtered in just a couple years bu that illustrious Belgian King Leopold.....does this make the regimes in China or CCCP better? No, of course not.

Btnaughton
21-10-2013, 21:25
The US had many camps---noted by "democide expert, and coiner of term", RJ Rummel where the sole purpose was to murder the inhabitants...down the road from our house is a lovely sounding hamlet called Round Valley. It is round and in the center was a concentration camp.http://www.revcom.us/a/v19/910-19/917/rndvaly.htm

Also, The Day the Great Spirit Died chronicles every act of terror committed by the US government, either by proxy or in person against California Indians.The same occurred elsewhere in the US, Lakota and Ute were rounded up and worked/starved to death, thousands were killed this way. The fact that they fought back--imagine--afew hundred Warsaw Ghetto Uprisings--doesn't make it a "war"....or a "clash of civilizations".


“Hitler’s concept of concentration camps as well as the practicality of genocide owed much, so he claimed, to his studies of English and United States history. He admired the camps for Boer prisoners in South Africa and for the Indians in the wild west; and often praised to his inner circle the efficiency of America’s extermination – by starvation and uneven combat – of the red savages who could not be tamed by captivity.”



– P. 202, “Adolph Hitler” by John Toland


Moving to Ireland, the English killed, in 800 years over 4-8 million Irish. Many of the same "camp" situations occurred, usually it was active negligence, such as the "forced starvation" or massacres like Drogheda. The forced starvations in India, by Britain were worse, meaning they had a higher death toll, although its hard to say whats worse: dying through lack of food in Magadan, on an Irish beach, in an Indian latrine.
. John Michael, The Way of the Aggressor, (Flanders Hall, 1941). During the Boer War, (1899-1902), the British created the first concentration camps, in which “26,663 women and children died,” p. 69. And, in India between 1860 and 1900, it is estimated “thirty million” starved to death under British rule, p. 64.
Mike Davis has called the thirty million or so deaths on the Indian subcont. "The Late Victorian Holocaust".
http://www.celdf.org/downloads/NATURE%20and%20EMPIRE%20-%20LAXMAN%20SATYA%20ARTICLE.pdf
I wont include the democide of Mau Maus, Aboriginal Australians and NZers, Africans etc by Queen Victoria...or the 10 million slaughtered in just a couple years bu that illustrious Belgian King Leopold.....does this make the regimes in China or CCCP better? No, of course not.


Damn sir, I am impressed. That's a whole helluva lot that is certainly not taught in most, or hell, any classes. Wow.

Jack17
21-10-2013, 21:28
The control they exercise over their people's daily lives is also very communist,

Hitler's control over peoples' daily lives was very "Socialist." I think you're making my point. Thank you.

BTW, I've been to China and Hong Kong; but just being there didn't confer me with any special knowledge.

Jack17
21-10-2013, 21:51
Damn sir, I am impressed. That's a whole helluva lot that is certainly not taught in most, or hell, any classes. Wow.
I'm not.

History is a continuum. It's far more instructive to take a snap shot today of how countries treat their citizens than just retelling history.

Is David Cameron treating the Scotts the way they were treated by Edward Longshanks? I don't think the Native American Tribes in California are especially aggrieved today by Jerry Brown.

If your intent is to say "j'accuse" to countries around the world, why did you forget Italy? Rome crucified its non-citizen enemies, sold their wives and children into slavery and ploughed salt into their arable fields. It would be difficult to top Rome for sheer cruelty.

More instructive is to look at what governments are doing today. I know you consider Leonard Peltier to be a political prisoner of the United States; but I think someone who shot and killed two FBI agents is just a common murderer. In contrast, let's examine what the young mothers who were members of the Rock Group "Pussy Riot" did to garner two years at hard labor in the Russian penal system: they sang a song against Putin in a Church. Now, that's what I call political tyranny. That's what's happening today, not 2 hundred or 2 thousand years ago.

Jas
21-10-2013, 22:03
Jack, what u c from these guys, Russians (Penka, RL) and finnandcork from the Euro right is the worst relativist trash on the site. U got Nazi sympathisers using whatever relativistic arguments they can find- the best ones are aimed at America and Britain cos the con is- "If the US-UK do it, then so can Nazis and Islamists and anyone else."

Like I told, only fanatics and the deluded use these kind of arguments to justify themselfes.

TolkoRaz
21-10-2013, 22:06
The US had many camps---noted by "democide expert, and coiner of term", RJ Rummel where the sole purpose was to murder the inhabitants...down the road from our house is a lovely sounding hamlet called Round Valley. It is round and in the center was a concentration camp.http://www.revcom.us/a/v19/910-19/917/rndvaly.htm

Also, The Day the Great Spirit Died chronicles every act of terror committed by the US government, either by proxy or in person against California Indians.The same occurred elsewhere in the US, Lakota and Ute were rounded up and worked/starved to death, thousands were killed this way. The fact that they fought back--imagine--afew hundred Warsaw Ghetto Uprisings--doesn't make it a "war"....or a "clash of civilizations".


“Hitler’s concept of concentration camps as well as the practicality of genocide owed much, so he claimed, to his studies of English and United States history. He admired the camps for Boer prisoners in South Africa and for the Indians in the wild west; and often praised to his inner circle the efficiency of America’s extermination – by starvation and uneven combat – of the red savages who could not be tamed by captivity.”



– P. 202, “Adolph Hitler” by John Toland


Moving to Ireland, the English killed, in 800 years over 4-8 million Irish. Many of the same "camp" situations occurred, usually it was active negligence, such as the "forced starvation" or massacres like Drogheda. The forced starvations in India, by Britain were worse, meaning they had a higher death toll, although its hard to say whats worse: dying through lack of food in Magadan, on an Irish beach, in an Indian latrine.
. John Michael, The Way of the Aggressor, (Flanders Hall, 1941). During the Boer War, (1899-1902), the British created the first concentration camps, in which “26,663 women and children died,” p. 69. And, in India between 1860 and 1900, it is estimated “thirty million” starved to death under British rule, p. 64.
Mike Davis has called the thirty million or so deaths on the Indian subcont. "The Late Victorian Holocaust".
http://www.celdf.org/downloads/NATURE%20and%20EMPIRE%20-%20LAXMAN%20SATYA%20ARTICLE.pdf
I wont include the democide of Mau Maus, Aboriginal Australians and NZers, Africans etc by Queen Victoria...or the 10 million slaughtered in just a couple years bu that illustrious Belgian King Leopold.....does this make the regimes in China or CCCP better? No, of course not.

What was the population of Ireland?

I though that it was the potato famine which killed off the Irish, not the pesky British! :fudd:

finnandcork
21-10-2013, 22:12
I'm not.

History is a continuum. It's far more instructive to take a snap shot today of how countries treat their citizens than just retelling history.

Is David Cameron treating the Scotts the way they were treated by Edward Longshanks? I don't think the Native American Tribes in California are especially aggrieved today by Jerry Brown.

If your intent is to say "j'accuse" to countries around the world, why did you forget Italy? Rome crucified its non-citizen enemies, sold their wives and children into slavery and ploughed salt into their arable fields. It would be difficult to top Rome for sheer cruelty.

More instructive is to look at what governments are doing today. I know you consider Leonard Peltier to be a political prisoner of the United States; but I think someone who shot and killed two FBI agents is just a common murderer. In contrast, let's examine what the young mothers who were members of the Rock Group "Pussy Riot" did to garner two years at hard labor in the Russian penal system: they sang a song against Putin in a Church. Now, that's what I call political tyranny. That's what's happening today, not 2 hundred or 2 thousand years ago.
Proof Jack? Lets see proof? The poor members of PR who shoved chickens into their vaginas can hardly be considered "political prisoners". What is Jerry Brown doing? For the Indians lucky enough to be close to a metro area, alot....for the bucolic "injuns"? Nothing....You have mental issues if you think Peltier is guilty. The first affidavit by Myrtle Poor Bear was not used--where she admits she wasnt even on the Pine Ridge rez-- in the procedings, was it?So, their main witness turned out to be a liar and a mental case, maybe she could be a member of Pussy Riot? Pussy Riot , after having sex in public, whilst Nadezhda was 9 moons pregnant, after the chicken in the vulva incident, etc, deserve every day in hard labor. Have you been to a rez lately? Genocide via neglect. The worst poverty Ive ever seen. But this doesnt matter to people like you, for you Russia is the bad guy par excellence, the perennial villain, no matter what she does she is guilty. Never mind that Brazil had over 300 murders of LGBT people last year, many of them lesbians beheaded by a mass murderer, never mind that Jamaica still hands down 10 yr prison sentences for sodomy....no, its Russia to blame, Russia is evil. :inlove:

finnandcork
21-10-2013, 22:16
What was the population of Ireland?

I though that it was the potato famine which killed off the Irish, not the pesky British! :fudd:
There was food shipped out under armed guard to England, as the irish lay in ditches eating grass. So, yes, the British government killed them. Russias problem is she doesnt couch her crimes in legalese, democracy, human rights etc...but wise people are starting to see the hypocrcy of the West---if they point at Russia, know that theyve done the same, perhaps not as worse but theyve done the same. If they dont actually do it today they support nearly every offender---Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Israel etc....Reagan and his open support of Central American goon squads, his support of Mott, the dictator accused of genocide, Pinochet , etc....but Jack wants us to look at Russia, always look at Russia, do not look behind you, do not look outside your door, do not ask questions. never ask questions.

Btnaughton
21-10-2013, 22:17
Proof Jack? Lets see proof? The poor members of PR who shoved chickens into their vaginas can hardly be considered "political prisoners". What is Jerry Brown doing? For the Indians lucky enough to be close to a metro area, alot....for the bucolic "injuns"? Nothing....You have mental issues if you think Peltier is guilty. The first affidavit by Myrtle Poor Bear was not used--where she admits she wasnt even on the Pine Ridge rez-- in the procedings, was it?So, their main witness turned out to be a liar and a mental case, maybe she could be a member of Pussy Riot? Pussy Riot , after having sex in public, whilst Nadezhda was 9 moons pregnant, after the chicken in the vulva incident, etc, deserve every day in hard labor. Have you been to a rez lately? Genocide via neglect. The worst poverty Ive ever seen. But this doesnt matter to people like you, for you Russia is the bad guy par excellence, the perennial villain, no matter what she does she is guilty. Never mind that Brazil had over 300 murders of LGBT people last year, many of them lesbians beheaded by a mass murderer, never mind that Jamaica still hands down 10 yr prison sentences for sodomy....no, its Russia to blame, Russia is evil. :inlove:

Well, that whole cold war is going to take awhile to get over. The hard cases on both sides will more than likely have to die before the US and RF can truly ally themselves against the 72 virgins in heaven lot. Meh, time will ttell.

Jack17
21-10-2013, 22:19
Proof Jack? Lets see proof? The poor members of PR who shoved chickens into their vaginas can hardly be considered "political prisoners". What is Jerry Brown doing? For the Indians lucky enough to be close to a metro area, alot....for the bucolic "injuns"? Nothing....You have mental issues if you think Peltier is guilty. The first affidavit by Myrtle Poor Bear was not used--where she admits she wasnt even on the Pine Ridge rez-- in the procedings, was it?So, their main witness turned out to be a liar and a mental case, maybe she could be a member of Pussy Riot? Pussy Riot , after having sex in public, whilst Nadezhda was 9 moons pregnant, after the chicken in the vulva incident, etc, deserve every day in hard labor. Have you been to a rez lately? Genocide via neglect. The worst poverty Ive ever seen. But this doesnt matter to people like you, for you Russia is the bad guy par excellence, the perennial villain, no matter what she does she is guilty. Never mind that Brazil had over 300 murders of LGBT people last year, many of them lesbians beheaded by a mass murderer, never mind that Jamaica still hands down 10 yr prison sentences for sodomy....no, its Russia to blame, Russia is evil. :inlove:
Finn, here's my recommendation: you, Mr. Z and Rus all get together and enjoy a few beers talking about poor misunderstood Leonard Peltier who had every right to murder those two FBI agents and talk about how nasty and awful the United States is.

Hey, you guys will have a great time together and I'd be the last one to interfere with your fun.

As for Russia, I love Russia, my children hold Russian passports; I have many friends and relatives there. It is a glorious country and fabulous culture. But what it is not, and never has been, is a liberal democracy.

Btnaughton
21-10-2013, 22:28
So are u a friend to the LGBT community? Why wud u be? Ure telling about bad conditions of Indian tribes, er, what about the bad conditions of immigrants in France, families torn apart cos of EU immigration rules, people like the Roma living on they're own reservations...
C, that doesn't fit into ure narrative does it, cos truth is, ure a right wing idelaogue what's only out to use and exploit causes like honor killings, enviromental issues etc etc for ure own ends.
Dont u know that everyone can c thru it?

Another, how come u with ure right wing views and ure fcking little downclass Hitler books found Russia? Tehe.

The way I see it, if a community of people are treated poorly in a country, they should get the hell out of that country. No amount of legislation will make gypsies welcome anywhere. LGTB in countries that prosecute and or kill them? I'm for equal rights and all, but at some point, you must leave if the populace is trying to destroy you.

I guess common sense isn't.

Judge
21-10-2013, 22:30
finnandcork and jas, would you two please behave, enough of the insults...

Btnaughton
21-10-2013, 22:33
@jas, wtf is with the tehe, and duh? It's like a 5yo. On top, u =you, ure=your, you're, you are; wud=would; fml, teaching english to an English teacher. I'm American. We don't really even speak English anymore.

finnandcork
21-10-2013, 22:33
Finn, here's my recommendation: you, Mr. Z and Rus all get together and enjoy a few beers talking about poor misunderstood Leonard Peltier who had every right to murder those two FBI agents and talk about how nasty and awful the United States is.

Hey, you guys will have a great time together and I'd be the last one to interfere with your fun.

As for Russia, I love Russia, my children hold Russian passports; I have many friends and relatives there. It is a glorious country and fabulous culture. But what it is not, and never has been, is a liberal democracy.
Which is good....I am glad its not a libdem....have a good day

Jas
21-10-2013, 22:33
finnandcork and jas, would you two please behave, enough of the insults...

I done nothing rong, I swear to god. Please pm me.

Btnaughton
21-10-2013, 22:40
Hey finn, do you know Macao in C
Tribeca?

Jas
21-10-2013, 22:40
The way I see it, if a community of people are treated poorly in a country, they should get the hell out of that country. I'm for equal rights and all, but at some point, you must leave if the populace is trying to destroy you.

.

So ure a advocate of ethnic cleansing are u? Blame the victims of repression, not the bad guys? So u blame the Jews do u for not having escaped from Germany, and Ahmadis cos we want to live in Pakistan?
U shud be ashamed of views like that, u shud.

Btnaughton
21-10-2013, 22:56
So ure a advocate of ethnic cleansing are u? Blame the victims of repression, not the bad guys? So u blame the Jews do u for not having escaped from Germany, and Ahmadis cos we want to live in Pakistan?
U shud be ashamed of views like that, u shud.

Nope, not at all hun. If you have the strength to defend yourself., by all means do. However, if you find yourself in a bad situation due to where you moved to, you should probably relocate. I'm pragmatic, and a bit cynical. There are certain places certain people are not supposed to be. You wouldn't see a white boy like me trying to make myself at home in Kabul, would you? That's because I know my butt would be the first cleansed. Harlemm, I'm ok with.

I don't agree with it, but I understand it. :fudd::ak:

Step back amd look at the world instead of trying to shape is with nonsensical dreamery. You may save your own sanity, miss.:7525:

VicY
22-10-2013, 05:02
Hitler's control over peoples' daily lives was very "Socialist." I think you're making my point. Thank you.


LOL, I didn't at all. But you're free to believe what you like.



BTW, I've been to China and Hong Kong; but just being there didn't confer me with any special knowledge.

Exactly!