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TGP
12-10-2013, 00:11
Did/do you regret something which had (or had not) a really very important impact on your life? Or something which you still cannot forget? What you would change by all means should you have this chance now? Do you try to do anything to get rid of this regret or change the consequences?

It is a delicate thing, so no need to tell what exactly happened in your life, just tell if you regret something...

penka
12-10-2013, 00:43
Well, in a sense I'd dwell on or weep over something - no. But once I refused to acknowledge what was right and forced my will through instead. That was utmost wrong. And in that sense I do regret it.

Jack17
12-10-2013, 00:44
Plenty of mistakes, but no regrets.

celia
12-10-2013, 05:17
I think that it's natural for people in their 50s to look back on their lives and think about how things could have been different (or at least for me it didn't happen until I turned 50) - and yes, there are many, many things I wish I had done differently. But I think, first, that we are programmed against regret, and secondly, that it could have been worse - who knows how things are going to turn out? So no, not many regrets.

I don't spend much time regretting the past, but I spend a lot of time these days thinking about the past - to the point where I'm reminding myself every day to think about the present and the future. It's like I'm really not expecting anything significant to happen in my life.

quincy
13-10-2013, 14:32
I think that it's natural for people in their 50s to look back on their lives and think about how things could have been different

for some, regrets can start much sooner - in their 30's and can continue well into their 80s

okiey
13-10-2013, 14:59
Tons of mistakes in life; but its a bigger waste of time regretting stuff, better to learn from the mistakes and move forward

rusmeister
13-10-2013, 15:36
Regret and shame are essentially good things, because they point us in e right direction and tell us how we OUGHT to be.

A lot depends on if and when you ever come to understand the true nature of things you did to hurt oer people. In some cases, I knew right away, in others, it took many years to realize what I had done.

Like Lewis said, time does nothing to the fact of sin. What you did twenty-five years or whatever ago is still just as awful, and the only good you can turn it to is repentance, hating what you once did.

Potty
13-10-2013, 17:49
I have a long long list. The most important one - I wish I spent more time with my grandma. I didn't realize she'd die one day.

PeteD
13-10-2013, 23:21
It is a delicate thing, so no need to tell what exactly happened in your life, just tell if you regret something...

Yes.

:10600:

natlee
14-10-2013, 00:18
I often think I do, but thinking long and hard about it... the end result(s) would've probably been the same. Grandparents, yes - grandma passed away in 2009 and grandad - earlier this year. I especially miss grandma, and deeply regret not having made the time to visit more often. Luckily though I've seen them both shortly before they died. I'm glad about that.

Russian Lad
14-10-2013, 00:48
edit

Russian Lad
14-10-2013, 00:51
My biggest regret so far is I have trusted too many people, irrespective of their gender and nationality, which resulted in my efforts and money and emotions wasted on them and my good will abused. I have learnt the golden rule - 80% of people are just irrepairable, egoistic scumbags to be avoided if possible. 20% can be dealt with in this or that form, cautiously. Only like 1-2% are really great people. Pareto principle is rather close on this. I was much more open-minded and in general kind even ten years ago. Well, may be it is not even a regret, but a lesson learned, sometimes the hard way.

Jack17
14-10-2013, 01:32
I have a long long list. The most important one - I wish I spent more time with my grandma. I didn't realize she'd die one day.
Very wise thing to say Potty. I best time I ever spent in my life was listening to my grandmother tell me stories of her parents' experiences during the American Civil War. She was a living piece of history who is now gone forever, except for my memories of her that I can pass on to my children.

BabyFirefly
14-10-2013, 01:55
I really regret giving mom hell when I was a teenager. I also regret not having met Max's grannies; they both died suddenly within a few months.

In a more practical/professional aspect, I regret leaving the STEM fields every single day of my life. I let my fear of failure overpower me and chose an easier route; I guess that's my true regret, letting a fear of failure drive me away from many opportunities.

trizen
14-10-2013, 10:21
I've made mistakes and done stupid things, but I don't regret anything. I think regretting is a choice that is made. Certainly if I could go back in time, there are things I wouldn't do and things I would, that I didn't, but what's the use of dwelling on that when it can't be changed? Move on, more forward, and endeavour to live the next part of your life better than you have done. Life happens and we've all done stupid things. Think though, of the person you are today: everything you've done, good or bad; everything that's been done to you, good or bad; has made you who you are. I like who I am today and wouldn't be this person if I'd done things differently.

Wow...sorry for the preaching.

Andy G
14-10-2013, 10:39
Regrets mean you think you did something bad, you blame yourself for it. But all things just happen and people "paint" them to "good" or "bad".
So, there are no regrets or mistakes. Just expirience.

Russian Lad
14-10-2013, 11:02
But all things just happen and people "paint" them to "good" or "bad".
So, there are no regrets or mistakes. Just expirience.


I would strongly disagree. Something stops you, say, from going to the person you dislike and from cutting his throat with a sharp knife from ear to ear, only then to shrug your shoulders and say: "Oh, well, I don't regret it and it wasn't a mistake. Just experience." I know it is an extreme example, but it is for better understanding.:)

rusmeister
14-10-2013, 11:55
I've made mistakes and done stupid things, but I don't regret anything. I think regretting is a choice that is made. Certainly if I could go back in time, there are things I wouldn't do and things I would, that I didn't, but what's the use of dwelling on that when it can't be changed? Move on, more forward, and endeavour to live the next part of your life better than you have done. Life happens and we've all done stupid things. Think though, of the person you are today: everything you've done, good or bad; everything that's been done to you, good or bad; has made you who you are. I like who I am today and wouldn't be this person if I'd done things differently.

Wow...sorry for the preaching.

No. Regretting is admitting that a choice was bad.

natlee
14-10-2013, 14:13
I think it's often easy to "regret" something outside of the situation you were then in the middle of. You THINK the person you are today would've done it differently there and then, but the truth is, you most likely wouldn't have.

The simplest, however primitive, example would be, when I came home one day to find a post-it on my closet instead of my fiance, I thought my world ended there and then. I then thought that if I could only get him to come back, I'd be a totally different person. Loving, understanding, patient etc. I was certain of it! So, I did. Guess what happened? While it was easy, while missing him, to picture becoming a more patient partner, as soon as I found myself right back there, dealing with his crappy attitude, constant whining, and little to no help I was EXACTLY the same, becase he, too, was EXACTLY the same.

Potty
14-10-2013, 16:09
I came home one day to find a post-it on my closet instead of my fiance,

:eek:

natlee
14-10-2013, 16:28
:eek: Apparently, men often find it difficult to say things to your face! :D

Now the moron is coming to town next week and wants to meet up! :duhhhh:

robertmf
14-10-2013, 16:34
In a more practical/professional aspect, I regret leaving the STEM fields every single day of my life.


"STEM fields" :question:

Potty
14-10-2013, 16:40
"STEM fields" :question:

Science, technology, engineering, math. In short, sexy brain :D

Potty
14-10-2013, 16:48
Do cybernetics belong to STEM fields?

BabyFirefly
14-10-2013, 18:05
Yep.

Russian Lad
14-10-2013, 19:47
The simplest, however primitive, example would be, when I came home one day to find a post-it on my closet instead of my fiance

So, he took an English leave?:) May be it is a tradition in his country?:) Usually men do it not necessarily because they are total assholes, but because they are stressed by the woman - by financial demands, by providing no sex and so on.:) However, the asshole scenario is also possible - maybe he had another woman.

penka
14-10-2013, 20:36
So, he took an English leave?:) May be it is a tradition in his country?:) Usually men do it not necessarily because they are total assholes, but because they are stressed by the woman - by financial demands, by providing no sex and so on.:) However, the asshole scenario is also possible - maybe he had another woman.

Gee, reading you, I'll start to feel sorry for males soon....

rusmeister
14-10-2013, 21:12
I think it's often easy to "regret" something outside of the situation you were then in the middle of. You THINK the person you are today would've done it differently there and then, but the truth is, you most likely wouldn't have.

The simplest, however primitive, example would be, when I came home one day to find a post-it on my closet instead of my fiance, I thought my world ended there and then. I then thought that if I could only get him to come back, I'd be a totally different person. Loving, understanding, patient etc. I was certain of it! So, I did. Guess what happened? While it was easy, while missing him, to picture becoming a more patient partner, as soon as I found myself right back there, dealing with his crappy attitude, constant whining, and little to no help I was EXACTLY the same, becase he, too, was EXACTLY the same.
We can regret things that were under or outside of our control. Speaking only to the first, the point of regret is that we realize that we were wrong, stupid, or whatever, and should have done/been differently. Now we realize things we did not realize then. I wish I had discovered Lewis and Chesterton at fifteen instead of forty. But that was not under my control. But there were other ways in which I hurt others as well as myself through not understanding what the true nature of things is, what sex is, what drink is, etc.

Also, I find that we excuse behavior in ourselves that we do not excuse in others. Having some experience in serious spousal conflict myself, when I read your description I get that he was the bad guy and you were innocent, whereas my experience is that there is fault on both sides, and each side casts their own fault as minimal or non-existent. Orthodoxy teaches me that I am the chief of sinners, I am worse than anyone I conflict with. I think that that attitude can do a ton to save a marriage, by constantly remembering how much I put myself in front of others and their needs and desires.

The upshot is that, while my own marriage is not conflictless, we do get through conflicts that might, over time, drive average couples to divorce in our time of disposable marriages by that philosophy and attitude that reminds us of our own pettiness and selfishness, and to work to crush it in ourselves.

So regret produces fruit that transforms the present from a living hell to something that is, quite often, a little more like heaven.

natlee
14-10-2013, 21:50
So, he took an English leave?:) May be it is a tradition in his country?:) Usually men do it not necessarily because they are total assholes, but because they are stressed by the woman - by financial demands, by providing no sex and so on.:) However, the asshole scenario is also possible - maybe he had another woman. :D Awww ;)

No other woman, he had just quit his job, rented out his place and moved to Moscow to be with me. Still, neither of us was happy. I had expected him to do that a year earlier, wasn't too big on the idea anymore but he assured me I had nothing to lose except a bit of time to see how things were gonna go. Yet he seemed unhappy day one always looking out of the window as if he could see United Kingdom from there :D He spent most days at home while I was out with my daughter or running errands, and seemed unwilling to join in on, well, our lives. It's too long and quite possibly too boring a story to tell on here, and my biggest regret there is the time that was wasted on that poor excuse for a relationship, the time that could've been spent so much more productively with my daughter, my friends or even a more suitable boyfriend. Not that I can ever get that time back, so not much point dwelling on it!

natlee
14-10-2013, 22:05
Also, I find that we excuse behavior in ourselves that we do not excuse in others. Having some experience in serious spousal conflict myself, when I read your description I get that he was the bad guy and you were innocent, whereas my experience is that there is fault on both sides, and each side casts their own fault as minimal or non-existent. Most often both parties are to blame, true, and it's not that I were innocent but that we were never a good match. If we wanted the same things, we'd want them at different times, but we rarely wanted the same things to begin with.

Russian Lad
14-10-2013, 22:19
Gee, reading you, I'll start to feel sorry for males soon....

What happened?


No other woman, he had just quit his job, rented out his place and moved to Moscow to be with me. Still, neither of us was happy. I had expected him to do that a year earlier, wasn't too big on the idea anymore but he assured me I had nothing to lose except a bit of time to see how things were gonna go. Yet he seemed unhappy day one always looking out of the window as if he could see United Kingdom from there He spent most days at home while I was out with my daughter or running errands, and seemed unwilling to join in on, well, our lives. It's too long and quite possibly too boring a story to tell on here, and my biggest regret there is the time that was wasted on that poor excuse for a relationship, the time that could've been spent so much more productively with my daughter, my friends or even a more suitable boyfriend. Not that I can ever get that time back, so not much point dwelling on it!
__________________

You are saying he didn't work in Moscow? What did he live on? If he was spending whatever he had on the card without any income, it may have made him very disturbed eventually.

penka
14-10-2013, 22:24
What happened?




Exploited to the last spermie and last dime.... Damn, that calls for a tear!

Russian Lad
14-10-2013, 22:27
Exploited to the last spermie and last dime.... Damn, that calls for a tear!

Why, many men are expected to be exploited, especially financially, it is in the Russian culture (and many others). Personally, I don't even mind some reasonable exploitation as long as there is something in return, besides bitching about this and that, but it is often not so.

penka
14-10-2013, 23:15
Why, many men are expected to be exploited, especially financially, it is in the Russian culture (and many others). Personally, I don't even mind some reasonable exploitation as long as there is something in return, besides bitching about this and that, but it is often not so.

You NEVER got anything in return?????

Russian Lad
14-10-2013, 23:53
You NEVER got anything in return?????

Well, if you mean some intangible goodies, like love/sex/tender attitude and so forth, whatever I got, I was also providing it. As to something tangible, I have never asked it from a woman and I have never been offered anything tangible by a woman here in Russia (well, apart from cheap B-day presents, in most cases purchased for my own cash I gave earlier). Russian women by nature are takers and spenders, not givers, moreover, and this is particularly sad and sick and even funny in a bad way, they truly believe that spending is also some sort of an intellectual activity that requires a lot of talent. Well, there may be exceptions, but I haven't met any. It is like a conveyor product in this respect. Дай. Хочу. Мне нужно. Я не могу без этого. Подари. Я это делаю для самой себя, а не для окружающих.

penka
15-10-2013, 00:37
Well, if you mean some intangible goodies, like love/sex/tender attitude and so forth, whatever I got, I was also providing it. As to something tangible, I have never asked it from a woman and I have never been offered anything tangible by a woman here in Russia (well, apart from cheap B-day presents, in most cases purchased for my own cash I gave earlier). Russian women by nature are takers and spenders, not givers, moreover, and this is particularly sad and sick and even funny in a bad way, they truly believe that spending is also some sort of an intellectual activity that requires a lot of talent. Well, there may be exceptions, but I haven't met any. It is like a conveyor product in this respect. Дай. Хочу. Мне нужно. Я не могу без этого. Подари. Я это делаю для самой себя, а не для окружающих.

I'm having an identity crisis here, doubting both my gender and my nationality...

But seriously, the amount of men, simultaneously calculating how much one is worth and b*tching about greedy women is appalling.

celia
15-10-2013, 00:51
Seriously, the number of times RL has mentioned the one theme inside his head, how women take advantage of men, is appalling AND BORING.

Russian Lad
15-10-2013, 01:13
But seriously, the amount of men, simultaneously calculating how much one is worth and b*tching about greedy women is appalling.

Well, I have never bothered calculating anything with respect to ladies' financial worth, maybe that has been a mistake.


Seriously, the number of times RL has mentioned the one theme inside his head, how women take advantage of men, is appalling AND BORING.

Hey, I was asked a question and responded to it, other than that, ok, this subject maybe occupies my head for one minute per day, hardly more. So, if some of you women here cannot handle my answers or find them boring, don't ask your questions, it is as simple as 2x2 really.:) Just ignore me.:)

rusmeister
15-10-2013, 05:55
Most often both parties are to blame, true, and it's not that I were innocent but that we were never a good match. If we wanted the same things, we'd want them at different times, but we rarely wanted the same things to begin with.

Well, I think it matters what "the same things" means. If you're talking about life goals, philosophy of life, then yes, of course. That's why couples marrying ought to share the same religion/beliefs. It's why a Muslim (who really believes in Islam, that it should affect hs life) marrying a Christian (who really believes in Christianity) or an atheist (who really believes in atheism) is a very bad idea and a recipe for divorce. Does he think sex is like brushing his teeth or a sacred act that needs to be blessed? Are children a blessing or a curse? These are matters of worldview, which religion has traditionally provided for mankind, and in the vacuum created by its absence, individualism offers chaos in worldview itself.

If, on the other hand, you mean "same movies/music/food/entertainment" etc, then so what? My wife and I are wholly "incompatible" and "a terrible match" in that sense (and our 22nd anniversary is coming up). But in that sense, men andvomen are, by definition, incompatible. Likes and tastes can come and go, and a couple can operate as a family, even a happy one, in the absence of common ones. My whole marriage is testament to that.

natlee
15-10-2013, 08:50
Well, I think it matters what "the same things" means. If you're talking about life goals, philosophy of life, then yes, of course. That's why couples marrying ought to share the same religion/beliefs. It's why a Muslim (who really believes in Islam, that it should affect hs life) marrying a Christian (who really believes in Christianity) or an atheist (who really believes in atheism) is a very bad idea and a recipe for divorce. Does he think sex is like brushing his teeth or a sacred act that needs to be blessed? Are children a blessing or a curse? These are matters of worldview, which religion has traditionally provided for mankind, and in the vacuum created by its absence, individualism offers chaos in worldview itself.

If, on the other hand, you mean "same movies/music/food/entertainment" etc, then so what? My wife and I are wholly "incompatible" and "a terrible match" in that sense (and our 22nd anniversary is coming up). But in that sense, men andvomen are, by definition, incompatible. Likes and tastes can come and go, and a couple can operate as a family, even a happy one, in the absence of common ones. My whole marriage is testament to that. I told him up front (before we even started dating) that I wanted another child. He was in his late forties already (considerably older than me, that is ;)), and I felt that judging by the fact that by that age he had no children (or ex-wives, for that matter) we were going to be wasting each other's time if we started dating. He was mad about me, and said he would love nothing more than to have a child with me and/or raise my daughter as his own if things worked out. I bought it while I shouldn't have. I got a sob story, of course, on how/why he didn't have children (yet), and bought that, too. I was a pretty easy target, then, going through the divorce and all. Months, years even into the relationship it became obvious that while he loved my daughter as best he could, he could never understand, fully, what kids were all about, how to handle her, or what her needs were. He no longer seemed to want a child with me (or anyone else, for that matter), but to live the lifestyle of a young(er) bachelor with the bars and the 'gigs' (and our music tastes were always different to the point of him saying out loud what he thinks about mine ;)) etc. As soon as I tried to split up with him, he 'wanted' a baby with me again, anything to get me to stay. This went on long enough. When, finally, I had enough (and so did he, it seemed) it only took him a couple of months to fall for another young woman with a husband and three (!) children. Luckily for her children, she ended up staying with the husband. My point is though, that while I'm not saying he's the scum of the earth, he's definitely incredibly selfish and never learns from his mistakes, let alone those of others. He's 53 today, still no kids or a wife, with a shockingly bitter attitude towards me for the mere fact that I've dated other men since the breakup. I'm one of those (stupid) women who tend to stay friends with their exes, yet anytime I talk to him, I feel like he wants nothing but to hurt me, still. I don't nor will ever understand it. If anything, I feel that he (or, rather, I, with his help) wasted my time, not the other way around. Yet, if only he approached me with a different attitude, I'd be up for that lunch he's been asking to join him for next week when he's in town.

natlee
15-10-2013, 08:58
You are saying he didn't work in Moscow? What did he live on? If he was spending whatever he had on the card without any income, it may have made him very disturbed eventually. He had just moved having saved up some money for a few months to a year of nice Moscow life :) and the plan was to keep looking for work from here (he'd started back home). The whole thing was incredibly dumb being that he didn't speak Russian and had no connections, but as he insisted I went with it.

rusmeister
15-10-2013, 09:57
I told him up front (before we even started dating) that I wanted another child. He was in his late forties already (considerably older than me, that is ;)), and I felt that judging by the fact that by that age he had no children (or ex-wives, for that matter) we were going to be wasting each other's time if we started dating. He was mad about me, and said he would love nothing more than to have a child with me and/or raise my daughter as his own if things worked out. I bought it while I shouldn't have. I got a sob story, of course, on how/why he didn't have children (yet), and bought that, too. I was a pretty easy target, then, going through the divorce and all. Months, years even into the relationship it became obvious that while he loved my daughter as best he could, he could never understand, fully, what kids were all about, how to handle her, or what her needs were. He no longer seemed to want a child with me (or anyone else, for that matter), but to live the lifestyle of a young(er) bachelor with the bars and the 'gigs' (and our music tastes were always different to the point of him saying out loud what he thinks about mine ;)) etc. As soon as I tried to split up with him, he 'wanted' a baby with me again, anything to get me to stay. This went on long enough. When, finally, I had enough (and so did he, it seemed) it only took him a couple of months to fall for another young woman with a husband and three (!) children. Luckily for her children, she ended up staying with the husband. My point is though, that while I'm not saying he's the scum of the earth, he's definitely incredibly selfish and never learns from his mistakes, let alone those of others. He's 53 today, still no kids or a wife, with a shockingly bitter attitude towards me for the mere fact that I've dated other men since the breakup. I'm one of those (stupid) women who tend to stay friends with their exes, yet anytime I talk to him, I feel like he wants nothing but to hurt me, still. I don't nor will ever understand it. If anything, I feel that he (or, rather, I, with his help) wasted my time, not the other way around. Yet, if only he approached me with a different attitude, I'd be up for that lunch he's been asking to join him for next week when he's in town.

This clarifies a lot for me.
I see it, though, as one of many variations that are inevitable when traditional practices around courtship and marriage, with sexual relations and "living together" reserved for marriage are abandoned.

These are matters of worldview, which religion has traditionally provided for mankind, and in the vacuum created by its absence, individualism offers chaos in worldview itself.

How could not men with no moral compass of the sort that religion provides not take the attitude of "Why buy a cow when milk is so cheap?"?

Not that I say that we should turn to faith merely because it "helps us". I think it vital that it also be true - but it cannot be argued very well that it is NOT true when it teaches the necessity of restricting sex and of holding marriage to be a holy thing. Certainly it proves truer than the libertine "Do whatever you want" philosophy.

Without God in the picture, for both individuals and society as a whole, this sort of thing MUST become extemely common, even the rule.

rusmeister
15-10-2013, 12:29
Because I am told that this story involves other members here, I'll emphasize that I am not exonerating or condemning any specific individuals, only actions in general, as described, and I'll let those who know the truth about the individual situations "try the shoe on and see if it fits".
God is the judge of individuals, not me. I can say that murder or theft are bad, but can't be sure who here has been a murderer or thief. So that's all I'm doing; saying that unfaithfulness (aka adultery) is bad, leaving your kids is bad, and conversely, being faithful when it is hard is good.

Russian Lad
15-10-2013, 12:33
Natlee, thank you for sharing, I appreciate it. Don't pay attention to another bucket of Christian filth from Rusmeister. I know it is hardly possible, but still.
Yes, never even talk about your exes, men don't like hearing about predecessors.:)
Well, here is my take on this - I think what really drove him up the wall was his gradually thinning bank account, month after month, to the point he could not even think clearly anymore. So, he retreated to his previous trenches. Everything else is rhetorics, though nice ones. Suppose you had another child with him - what would it be like, him in a foreign country, reaching the pension age and without a source of income? You would end up having him as your third child actually, after a rather short while. I think he saw this trajectory as well, unless he is an idiot.

natlee
15-10-2013, 12:43
Well, here is my take on this - I think what really drove him up the wall was his gradually thinning bank account, month after month, to the point he could not even think clearly anymore. He lasted a whole 5-6 weeks here ;)

natlee
15-10-2013, 12:47
Because I am told that this story involves other members here, I'll emphasize that I am not exonerating or condemning any specific individuals, only actions in general, as described, and I'll let those who know the truth about the individual situations "try the shoe on and see if it fits".
God is the judge of individuals, not me. I can say that murder or theft are bad, but can't be sure who here has been a murderer or thief. So that's all I'm doing; saying that unfaithfulness (aka adultery) is bad, leaving your kids is bad, and conversely, being faithful when it is hard is good. :confused: Hmmm no, it doesn't. Now I have to say I'm getting a little uncomfortable with that new piece of info. Not only whoever is telling you this doesn't know what on earth they're talking about, but the mere fact that they're talking about me behind my back gives me the creeps.

natlee
15-10-2013, 13:12
Suppose you had another child with him - what would it be like, him in a foreign country, reaching the pension age and without a source of income? You would end up having him as your third child actually, after a rather short while. I think he saw this trajectory as well, unless he is an idiot. Agreed, which is why I'm appalled he actually wanted this new woman with three children to leave her husband to be with him. So, er, an idiot... might just be what he is! :eek: :shame:

ezik
15-10-2013, 15:03
Natlee didn't mention names and has at no moment indicated that her story involves another forum member.

And even IF another forum member was involved, it would be up to Natlee only to say that it is the case.

Just because you were told, doesn't mean it is true. In fact, by even mentioning that you were "told that this story involves other members here", you add an element to Natlee's story that:
- she would not want to share (otherwise she would have done so)
- makes her feel uncomfortable
- adds nothing to the story whatsoever.

If you wanted to emphasize something, don't do it on the basis of gossip about someone else. That's just unfair.


Because I am told that this story involves other members here, I'll emphasize that I am not exonerating or condemning any specific individuals, only actions in general, as described, and I'll let those who know the truth about the individual situations "try the shoe on and see if it fits".
God is the judge of individuals, not me. I can say that murder or theft are bad, but can't be sure who here has been a murderer or thief. So that's all I'm doing; saying that unfaithfulness (aka adultery) is bad, leaving your kids is bad, and conversely, being faithful when it is hard is good.

rusmeister
15-10-2013, 17:53
Natlee didn't mention names and has at no moment indicated that her story involves another forum member.

And even IF another forum member was involved, it would be up to Natlee only to say that it is the case.

Just because you were told, doesn't mean it is true. In fact, by even mentioning that you were "told that this story involves other members here", you add an element to Natlee's story that:
- she would not want to share (otherwise she would have done so)
- makes her feel uncomfortable
- adds nothing to the story whatsoever.

If you wanted to emphasize something, don't do it on the basis of gossip about someone else. That's just unfair.

Hi Ezik,
I've already addressed this in PM, but I'll say in public that I do not believe everyone's stories unconditionally. I do not know whether the claims are true, and I only speak to generalities. I will go on saying that adultery - in general - is wrong and that divorce DOES hurt children, whatever you might think about not divorcing. I am not interested in people's personal details or in personally judging anyone.

That said, I won't repeat anything else said in private, even in the passive voice. I'll ask the people PMing me to stop so as to make that easier. Everything I have to say can be said in public. By responding in private (saying the same things), I was trying to be polite. If that's not working, I just won't respond to such PM's.

Potty
15-10-2013, 18:13
Rusmeister, you are impossible :D
The question is : why do you care so much? Why do you write such long posts and why don't you just stop?

ezik
15-10-2013, 18:25
It's not about adultery or judging, Rusmeister.

My only point is/was that you added an "external" piece of information to Natlee's personal story. I think that that was a mistake and I explained why in my previous post.

I don't believe you did it with any bad intentions, so if things have been settled, it's case closed for me.


Hi Ezik,
I've already addressed this in PM, but I'll say in public that I do not believe everyone's stories unconditionally. I do not know whether the claims are true, and I only speak to generalities. I will go on saying that adultery - in general - is wrong and that divorce DOES hurt children, whatever you might think about not divorcing. I am not interested in people's personal details or in personally judging anyone.

That said, I won't repeat anything else said in private, even in the passive voice. I'll ask the people PMing me to stop so as to make that easier. Everything I have to say can be said in public. By responding in private (saying the same things), I was trying to be polite. If that's not working, I just won't respond to such PM's.

natlee
15-10-2013, 18:40
What on earth does the bit I shared on here have to do with adultery or divorce? I never did marry the guy, nor did either of us cheat as far as I'm aware.

In my PM I asked you what on earth your earlier post was about, and all I got in response was, well, the above. I realize you don't wish to expose whoever PM'ed you, I just don't get why make that post in the first place.

As far as I'm aware, my ex fiance doesn't post on here, nor does anyone who has so much as met him. I find it sick that anyone would have it in them to speak of people and events they know nothing about, and can't even begin to imagine what their reasons could be. Talk of right and wrong.

VicY
15-10-2013, 19:05
I told him up front (before we even started dating) that I wanted another child. He was in his late forties already (considerably older than me, that is ;)), and I felt that judging by the fact that by that age he had no children (or ex-wives, for that matter) we were going to be wasting each other's time if we started dating. He was mad about me, and said he would love nothing more than to have a child with me and/or raise my daughter as his own if things worked out. I bought it while I shouldn't have. I got a sob story, of course, on how/why he didn't have children (yet), and bought that, too. I was a pretty easy target, then, going through the divorce and all. Months, years even into the relationship it became obvious that while he loved my daughter as best he could, he could never understand, fully, what kids were all about, how to handle her, or what her needs were. He no longer seemed to want a child with me (or anyone else, for that matter), but to live the lifestyle of a young(er) bachelor with the bars and the 'gigs' (and our music tastes were always different to the point of him saying out loud what he thinks about mine ;)) etc. As soon as I tried to split up with him, he 'wanted' a baby with me again, anything to get me to stay. This went on long enough. When, finally, I had enough (and so did he, it seemed) it only took him a couple of months to fall for another young woman with a husband and three (!) children. Luckily for her children, she ended up staying with the husband. My point is though, that while I'm not saying he's the scum of the earth, he's definitely incredibly selfish and never learns from his mistakes, let alone those of others. He's 53 today, still no kids or a wife, with a shockingly bitter attitude towards me for the mere fact that I've dated other men since the breakup. I'm one of those (stupid) women who tend to stay friends with their exes, yet anytime I talk to him, I feel like he wants nothing but to hurt me, still. I don't nor will ever understand it. If anything, I feel that he (or, rather, I, with his help) wasted my time, not the other way around. Yet, if only he approached me with a different attitude, I'd be up for that lunch he's been asking to join him for next week when he's in town.

Goodness, Natlee, he sounds like such a pitiful individual! A typical "kidult" that the modern society is so full of! I've known people like this too, although, thankfully, they weren't my boyfriends. This phenomenon isn't only related to males, by the way: female "kidults" are a rather common sight as well.
Every time I come across "kidults", I wonder what in the world made them this way...I often wish I could have a glimpse of their families, to see if there were any clues.

Anyway, good on you for not staying with the guy! It was clear as daylight that both of you would have just been more miserable had you kept that relationship.

VicY
15-10-2013, 19:10
Well, if you mean some intangible goodies, like love/sex/tender attitude and so forth, whatever I got, I was also providing it. As to something tangible, I have never asked it from a woman and I have never been offered anything tangible by a woman here in Russia (well, apart from cheap B-day presents, in most cases purchased for my own cash I gave earlier). Russian women by nature are takers and spenders, not givers, moreover, and this is particularly sad and sick and even funny in a bad way, they truly believe that spending is also some sort of an intellectual activity that requires a lot of talent. Well, there may be exceptions, but I haven't met any. It is like a conveyor product in this respect. Дай. Хочу. Мне нужно. Я не могу без этого. Подари. Я это делаю для самой себя, а не для окружающих.

I'm lost as to what that "anything tangible" is...:confused:

So it's not love/care/tenderness and it's not birthday presents. What is it then???

natlee
15-10-2013, 20:58
Every time I come across "kidults", I wonder what in the world made them this way...I often wish I could have a glimpse of their families, to see if there were any clues. I never did meet the parents or the sister. But, the parents are in their eighties, still married and happily so, it seems. The sister has been married for over 20 years. The parents are closest to the sister being that she lives close and they see each other often. He visits when he needs something and around XMas ;)

Jack17
15-10-2013, 22:51
Rusmeister, you are impossible :D
The question is : why do you care so much? Why do you write such long posts and why don't you just stop?
Please Potty, we've lost Yakspeare; we can't lose Rusmeister too. Every party needs a religious zealot.

Potty
15-10-2013, 23:00
Please Potty, we've lost Yakspeare; we can't lose Rusmeister too. Every party needs a religious zealot.
Right. Who else will entertain the public with the content of PM :D

Jack17
15-10-2013, 23:33
Natlee, I too want to thank you for sharing. I also know that "beating up" on a single mother is not a way to win friends. But knowing that, allow me to ask you a few questions.

Really, I only have three - feel free to tell me to buzz off if they are too personal.

First question is: How was the sex with your British friend? I ask because it's been my experience that if a woman is really satisfied physically, there is little BS that she is not willing to tolerate; however, once the sex becomes old (and unsatisfying) there is little that is right with the relationship.

Second question is: Was this guy pulling his weight financially? I mean, if he was living in your apartment, was he at least paying half the bills?

Third question is: Are Brits as insufferably sarcastic in a private relationship as they are in public? I mean, if you were getting dressed to go out, would you hear comments from him like: "Oh, Natlee dear, what interesting taste you have in clothes." Just curious.

natlee
15-10-2013, 23:54
Natlee, I too want to thank you for sharing. I also know that "beating up" on a single mother is not a way to win friends. But knowing that, allow me to ask you a few questions.

Really, I only have three - feel free to tell me to buzz off if they are too personal.

First question is: How was the sex with your British friend? I ask because it's been my experience that if a woman is really satisfied physically, there is little BS that she is not willing to tolerate; however, once the sex becomes old (and unsatisfying) there is little that is right with the relationship.

Second question is: Was this guy pulling his weight financially? I mean, if he was living in your apartment, was he at least paying half the bills?

Third question is: Are Brits as insufferably sarcastic in a private relationship as they are in public? I mean, if you were getting dressed to go out, would you hear comments from him like: "Oh, Natlee dear, what interesting taste you have in clothes." Just curious. 1. Amazing. Until he stopped wanting any ;) (Something with being depressed or similar, and it never did come back.) 2. For the five weeks he was here, yes. 3. It was more the other way around. He looked like he was going to murder me anytime I suggested he changed the shirt :) Not because he cared for the shirt itself, but cause it was sooo hard to take it off and put a new one on :confused: ;)

On a more serious note, Brits are sarcastic in private relationships, trouble is though, when you answer back, they tend to get very upset.

PeteD
15-10-2013, 23:58
1. Amazing.

what else did you expect from a Brit????


On a more serious note, Brits are sarcastic in private relationships, trouble is though, when you answer back, they tend to get very upset.

you've obviously never been in the right kind of relationship with the right kind of Brit, if they back off when you answer them back!!!!

;)

Russian Lad
16-10-2013, 00:12
1. Amazing.
what else did you expect from a Brit????

She also said the horse died rather soon, let's not miss out this part either... :11513::respect::whisper:

Jack17
16-10-2013, 04:32
you've obviously never been in the right kind of relationship with the right kind of Brit, if they back off when you answer them back!!!!;)

Oooooh Peter, isn't that boast just more of the same?

I remember just the other day saying the same to one esteemed British member of this online community when he complained so loudly I was being mean to him. It's always been my experience, just as it has been Natlee's, that you Brits are far better at dishing it out than receiving.

Anyway, I am deeply grateful to Natlee for her candor which has helped confirm many of my old prejudices.

Perhaps more alarming than the sarcasm is the personal hygiene. While it's better today, I remember walking in London and Frankfurt 30 years ago when you could hardly breath from the B.O. In my experience, the only people with a long history of bathing everyday are we Americans and the Japanese.

natlee
16-10-2013, 08:23
Sarcasm is great, a healthy dose of it, but should only really be used on others by those prepared to take it themselves.

If we're still talking of the member I think we're talking about, then again, I thought he took it well, unless I missed something. Just wondering what's "receiving" it (well) in your view. So I can take it if it comes to that, that is! ;)

As far as hygiene, I'd say that it depends. I know an American who takes his showers before bed only, for instance. I was 18(ish) when this came up, and I still remember the shock ;) I also know a Russian (woman!) who does the same, and a Brit who prefers his showers in the morning. Come to think of it, if it were absolutely impossible :eek: to take both, I guess I'd side with the American friend but you get the idea ;) And both my American ex-husband and the British ex-fiance had an issue with cutting their toenails... timely :yuk: Other than that, it's all been good :D

VicY
16-10-2013, 17:24
I never did meet the parents or the sister. But, the parents are in their eighties, still married and happily so, it seems.

Somehow, reading this bit, I am reminded of "Tell Me On A Sunday" :D

VicY
16-10-2013, 17:26
It's always been my experience, just as it has been Natlee's, that you Brits are far better at dishing it out than receiving.



How many British guys have you dated?? :9456: :goblin:

natlee
16-10-2013, 17:27
Somehow, reading this bit, I am reminded of "Tell Me On A Sunday" :D Haven't seen :(

natlee
16-10-2013, 17:29
How many British guys have you dated?? :9456: :goblin: :D

VicY
16-10-2013, 17:36
Haven't seen :(

It's a musical, a one-woman show that ran in the West End for a few years...I like Denise Van Outen's performance the best. Can't forgive myself for never making it to the show in 2004, when it was still on. :(

Denise Van Outen - Tell Me On A Sunday - YouTube

Denise Van Outen-Somewhere, Someplace, Sometime - YouTube

Jack17
16-10-2013, 18:32
How many British guys have you dated?? :9456: :goblin:
Girlfriend, more than I care to admit.

Actually, you don't need to be intimate with a person to know they need a bath or a change of clothes. (If I may use the British word) That's the unfortunate bit.

VicY
16-10-2013, 18:54
Girlfriend, more than I care to admit.

Actually, you don't need to be intimate with a person to know they need a bath or a change of clothes. (If I may use the British word) That's the unfortunate bit.

Well, Jack, in regards to that particular aspect, I never noticed the Brits to have this problem. Not in my experience.
Never dated an American but worked with them, as well as Australians, British, Kiwis, Canadians. I have to say that I can't single out one particular group of people as more or less agreeable. It's all about individuals. Some I got along with, some I didn't.
Overall, I have to admit that I find it easier to communicate with and relate to people of the older generation...:shame: I think it's because they tend to be a bit less liberal than their younger counterparts. Also, they tend to be more responsible...Again, in my limited experience :D

Jack17
16-10-2013, 18:57
Overall, I have to admit that I find it easier to communicate with and relate to people of the older generation...

Then why do you have such a difficult time with me?

VicY
16-10-2013, 19:05
Then why do you have such a difficult time with me?

Moi?? Never! :D
Or maybe...you're an exception? ;)

rusmeister
16-10-2013, 21:55
Rusmeister, you are impossible :D
The question is : why do you care so much? Why do you write such long posts and why don't you just stop?

Do you really want me to say, Potty?
Really, this strikes me as serious нахалство.

From my standpoint, the only thing I really meant to communicate is that I refuse to take sides in personal disputes of this sort, because I don't know who is telling how much truth. I stick to general truths.

natlee
16-10-2013, 22:06
Do you really want me to say, Potty?
Really, this strikes me as serious нахалство.

From my standpoint, the only thing I really meant to communicate is that I refuse to take sides in personal disputes of this sort, because I don't know who is telling how much truth. I stick to general truths. Ah, this clarifies it somewhat. Unbelievable and so pathetic.

Btw, you-know-who-you-are, please learn to read past the word "ex". I've had other relationships, you know, since God and I aren't as close. Somehow though, I can't picture God being too proud of you lately ;)

PeteD
16-10-2013, 22:07
It's a musical, a one-woman show that ran in the West End for a few years...I like Denise Van Outen's performance the best. Can't forgive myself for never making it to the show in 2004, when it was still on. :(

Denise Van Outen - Tell Me On A Sunday - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgAKBbWbwOQ)

Denise Van Outen-Somewhere, Someplace, Sometime - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS0GYEaSq-o)

perlease...........

The original was SO much better - I bought the vinyl soundtrack!

PeteD
16-10-2013, 22:13
I refuse to take sides in personal disputes of this sort.....

Rus, your post, which I read yesterday, didn't come across as impartial.

You actually managed to shock (and disappoint) me...

Shame on you. :(

natlee
16-10-2013, 22:24
Honestly Rus, whatever you MEANT TO communicate you didn't. You communicated something else instead.

Take sides? Personal disputes? Are you freakin' kidding me? You're the person who took it out of a PM and displayed it on here. I was simply using my personal experience as an example of regret - you know, the subject of the thread?

One word - pathetic. Both of you. But hey, both so close to God. Makes me want to spit on religion.

Potty
16-10-2013, 22:27
Do you really want me to say, Potty?
Really, this strikes me as serious нахалство.

From my standpoint, the only thing I really meant to communicate is that I refuse to take sides in personal disputes of this sort, because I don't know who is telling how much truth. I stick to general truths.

Rusmeister, you are a really really weird person. But continue whatever you are going to continue. I lost the logic of what you are doing and interest to the topic.

winkwink
16-10-2013, 22:53
I made lots mistakes in my life. Some story has pass long time but still made me cry for some night. But all they say, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger right? ))

celia
17-10-2013, 01:52
Jack, your comments regarding body odour problems in London and Frankfurt are seriously out of date, if they ever were accurate. I'd say people in England and Germany have caught up with the US and Japan.

(Jack, it's really time to visit Europe again - things have changed drastically.)

Jack17
17-10-2013, 01:59
You know, I think I'm beginning to feel sorry for Rusmeister. I mean, is it his fault that you women are such sinners? This thread reminds me that it was Eve who was corrupted first by the serpent and then tempted Adam.

All I have to say is - Repent! Your hour of judgment is near and "Will come as a thief in the night" when you least expect it.

25213
SAVONAROLA

Jack17
17-10-2013, 02:01
Jack, your comments regarding body odour problems in London and Frankfurt are seriously out of date, if they ever were accurate. I'd say people in England and Germany have caught up with the US and Japan.

(Jack, it's really time to visit Europe again - things have changed drastically.)
Didn't I say it was 30 years ago? Even back then however, my nose was never wrong!

Russian Lad
17-10-2013, 03:05
All I have to say is - Repent! Your hour of judgment is near and "Will come as a thief in the night" when you least expect it.

AAAAAhhhh!!!! Rusmeisterism is infectious! Repent! The end is near! Did I just say that? :(( Aaaaaah!

robertmf
17-10-2013, 03:54
AAAAAhhhh!!!! Rusmeisterism is infectious! Repent! The end is near! Did I just say that? :(( Aaaaaah!

Like the Phoenix, the Cult of Rusmeister will rise from the ashes of the apocalypse.


:duhhhh:
:eek:

natlee
17-10-2013, 05:47
Thank you Jack for your support ;)

Jack17
17-10-2013, 05:52
Prego Signora. :devil:

VicY
17-10-2013, 06:23
perlease...........

The original was SO much better - I bought the vinyl soundtrack!

Pur-leeaase, Pete!

Each to their own, eh? I like this version better ;)

rusmeister
17-10-2013, 07:12
Rus, your post, which I read yesterday, didn't come across as impartial.

You actually managed to shock (and disappoint) me...

Shame on you. :(

Pete, I did NOT post the contents of the PMs in public; you guys are pretending I did.
This is the entire content of my "shocking" post:


Because I am told that this story involves other members here, I'll emphasize that I am not exonerating or condemning any specific individuals, only actions in general, as described, and I'll let those who know the truth about the individual situations "try the shoe on and see if it fits".
God is the judge of individuals, not me. I can say that murder or theft are bad, but can't be sure who here has been a murderer or thief. So that's all I'm doing; saying that unfaithfulness (aka adultery) is bad, leaving your kids is bad, and conversely, being faithful when it is hard is good.


The ONLY thing I said was "Because I am told that this story involves other members here". THAT is the "terrible, wicked, shocking" thing I said, which was only trying to concede that there can be multiple sides to a story. I did NOT say that any individual here committed adultery or left their kids; I said that doing such things is wrong.
I got a whole flurry of PM's, which I now see in the light of public posts of the member as harassment and baiting. I was publicly censured by a mod that I generally respect for this and said member has joined in the public ridicule of me.

I won't get sucked into your private fights. I'm unsubscribing from this thread.

Everything else I said is true and stands.

natlee
17-10-2013, 07:49
Pete, I did NOT post the contents of the PMs in public; you guys are pretending I did. Nope, we're not. We're referring to you having posted the fact such PMs got sent.


THAT is the "terrible, wicked, shocking" thing I said, which was only trying to concede that there can be multiple sides to a story. Story? The bit I shared to explain my views on regret as a concept? Had I made it up even, what would've been the damn difference? Have I asked you (or anyone else) to take sides? :confused:


I did NOT say that any individual here committed adultery or left their kids Nope, but instead of responding to the question(s) asked, you did your usual (and worse) which was to throw a whole bunch of irrelevant nonsense our way. A simple sorry would've sufficed, you know ;)


I got a whole flurry of PM's Good for you? :)


which I now see in the light of public posts of the member as harassment and baiting. I've read this line three times. (I'll try again after my morning tea.) What? Harrassment of... you? :eek: :D


I won't get sucked into your private fights. The only member I was "fighting" with here is you. No one asked you to take such personal interest in my private life.


I'm unsubscribing from this thread. Awww, how very mature. As I've said, a simple sorry would've sufficed. The way you've handled this, I for one have no further interest in reading anything you have to say. Take care.

Potty
17-10-2013, 11:38
Pete, I did NOT post the contents of the PMs in public; you guys are pretending I did.
No, but These ones are hilarious: :D



Because I am told that this story involves other members here,
who could it be? No one will ever guess :D


. I'll ask the people PMing me to stop so as to make that easier.....If that's not working, I just won't respond to such PM's.


Do you really want me to say, Potty?

You've said so enough. Now the only thing left is to use quotes and copy-paste function. (If you do I am not responsible if you get ban or whatever. But please use my original language. If I wrote "f*ck" it means "f*ck" not "making love" :D)


I got a whole flurry of PM's,
You must be the member of the year :D

Matt24
17-10-2013, 12:03
Pete, I did NOT post the contents of the PMs in public; you guys are pretending I did.
This is the entire content of my "shocking" post:



The ONLY thing I said was "Because I am told that this story involves other members here". THAT is the "terrible, wicked, shocking" thing I said, which was only trying to concede that there can be multiple sides to a story. I did NOT say that any individual here committed adultery or left their kids; I said that doing such things is wrong.
I got a whole flurry of PM's, which I now see in the light of public posts of the member as harassment and baiting. I was publicly censured by a mod that I generally respect for this and said member has joined in the public ridicule of me.


I won't get sucked into your private fights. I'm unsubscribing from this thread.

Everything else I said is true and stands.

Squeal piggie squeal, the bully bullied excellent, well done ladies.

natlee
17-10-2013, 12:11
If I wrote "f*ck" it means "f*ck" not "making love" :D And there I was thinking you Christians didn't so much as know the word for the proper kind of sex... :question: :eh: :rolleyes:

Russian Lad
17-10-2013, 12:52
Squeal piggie squeal, the bully bullied excellent, well done ladies.

:celebrate:

Potty
17-10-2013, 13:01
You are just jealous of his popularity :D

penka
17-10-2013, 18:13
Geez-weez, people. Admit your regrets and move on!

Everything is either a sin, or illegal or unhealthy, in any case.

TGP
18-10-2013, 20:43
I regret I started this thread.

Jack17
18-10-2013, 21:12
That's your best post ever TGP!!

TGP
18-10-2013, 22:03
That's your best post ever TGP!!

But not the only regret in my life.

celia
18-10-2013, 22:12
Well, spit those regrets out, no doubt someone here will feel like commenting on them. :whisper:

TGP
18-10-2013, 22:14
Well, spit those regrets out, no doubt someone here will feel like commenting on them. :whisper:

No, I won't. - for that very reason which you mentioned.

natlee
18-10-2013, 22:18
No, I won't. - for that very reason which you mentioned. A perfect example of learning from the mistakes of others to avoid regret, if only Rus was here :p

celia
18-10-2013, 22:32
Here's a joke for Rus and RL (who in my view are more similar than they would ever admit to):


A woman awoke during the night to find that her husband was not in bed. She put on her robe and went downstairs. He was sitting at the kitchen table with a cup of coffee in front of him. He appeared to be in deep thought, just staring at the wall.

She saw him wipe a tear from his eye and take a sip of his coffee.

"What's the matter dear? Why are you down here at this time of night?" she asked.

"Do you remember twenty years ago when we were dating and you were only 16?" he asked.

"Yes, I do," she replied.

"Do you remember when your father caught us in the back seat of my car kissing?"

"Yes, I remember."

"Do you remember when he shoved that shotgun in my face and said, 'Either you marry my daughter or spend twenty years in jail?"

"Yes, I do," she said.

He wiped another tear from his cheek and said, "You know...I would have gotten out today."

Russian Lad
19-10-2013, 12:08
Well, spit those regrets out, no doubt someone here will feel like commenting on them.
No, I won't.

You start a thread suggesting the people here share with you their regrets in life and then you refuse to share your own. That's worse than trolling. :bash::happymad:

TGP
19-10-2013, 15:15
A perfect example of learning from the mistakes of others to avoid regret, if only Rus was here :p

True... As soon as I wanted to write something about my regrets, I read all the razborki and my wish evaporated.

natlee
19-10-2013, 15:23
True... As soon as I wanted to write something about my regrets, I read all the razborki and my wish evaporated. Ah but don't you worry about that, Miss P. only has those special feelings for me, and Rus is in hiding ;)

rusmeister
20-10-2013, 08:00
True... As soon as I wanted to write something about my regrets, I read all the razborki and my wish evaporated.

The trouble is, people no longer agree at all on what is good and right. Where there is no philosophical and moral unity, soon there is no unity at all. That's why I believe in heaven and hell. In heaven (I could say "people in a state of heaven"), everybody sees the Truth. In hell (ditto) people see only their private and warring visions. So to take an extreme example, rape, one rapist might come to understand what he has done and be filled (appropriately) with regret and remorse. Another, NOT coming to that, might revel in his sick fantasy and memory, and regret nothing at all. It all hinges on our ability to understand what things really are, what we call "the truth".

If you don't understand that abortion is the killing of a human baby, your own baby, you might imagine it as a form of "freeing yourself" to "live your life as you choose", a matter of personal choice. If and when you come to realize that it is murder, you see that talk of "choice" is nonsense, and only then might you come to regret.

It's dangerously (for those that hate the concept) close to repentance, coming to hate what you once loved, to realize what you have done to both yourself and others, and to determine to never do it again.

quincy
23-10-2013, 23:00
It's dangerously (for those that hate the concept) close to repentance, coming to hate what you once loved, to realize what you have done to both yourself and others, and to determine to never do it again.

there are unfortunately certain people - we can call them sons of bitches - who probably can't be reformed

rusmeister
24-10-2013, 06:13
there are unfortunately certain people - we can call them sons of bitches - who probably can't be reformed

A main thrust of Orthodox teaching is that I, the person thinking about this, am in danger of becoming that man.
It is not, "Other people are SOB's, but I'm perfectly all right.", but almost completely the other way around.
That may seem paradoxical, but the crux can be found in thinking broken communion with God (aka "sin") terrible, but people as being of infinite value. "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is a crude way of putting it, but essentially true.
The corollary is that I should especially despise the sin (brokenness) in myself, and apply the love I naturally feel for myself that excuses my own sins and calls them merely "peccadillos", "vices" or "weaknesses" to my neighbor, those around me. I should hate what damages and breaks them, but desire their healing and wholeness as much as my own.

Obviously, it requires a radical reassessment of how we see things, and major personal change, something we have natural resistance to.

quincy
25-10-2013, 11:42
It is not, "Other people are SOB's, but I'm perfectly all right.", but almost completely the other way around.
.

In the Bible, Cain was essentially a SOB

Joseph's brothers who sold him into slavery were also basically sons of bitches

AstarD
25-10-2013, 12:01
Yes. But.
Those stories are not about glorifying what Cain and Joseph's brothers did. Rather, they show how forgiveness is better. And also in the case of Joseph, how God can work good despite our evil acts.

rusmeister
25-10-2013, 12:27
In the Bible, Cain was essentially a SOB

Joseph's brothers who sold him into slavery were also basically sons of bitches

What Astar said.
Also, one of the hardest things, made harder because we avoid it, consciously or not, is learning to see one's own sins, that you and I are "SOB's".

What we condemn in others we readily excuse in ourselves.

quincy
25-10-2013, 13:07
What we condemn in others we readily excuse in ourselves.

depends on the person



Those stories are not about glorifying what Cain and Joseph's brothers did.

who said they were?



Rather, they show how forgiveness is better

how? in these stories there is no forgiveness mentioned

rusmeister
25-10-2013, 14:08
depends on the person

how? in these stories there is no forgiveness mentioned
Indeed it does depend on the person. And 999 times out of a thousand, people excuse their own faults.

Uh, Joseph openly forgave his brothers. That's in the story. There are many ways in which Joseph foreshadows Christ, and how the Old Testament stories are all part of the history of salvation. The main thing is that they establish that man decidedly needs saving. Even the very best men fell in petty sins, acting at some point out of greed, selfishness or pride, and reducing themselves to "SOB's". Abraham refused to trust God, and wound up screwing another woman to get a son. Noah, Lot, David, all seen as or declared righteous men, fell in one way or another.

The thing is, Quincy, is that none of us are really good. None of us "deserve" salvation or even the right to think we are better men - something we hate in Pharisees: "I thank God that I am better than other men!"... If you began putting your mind to it, you could probably remember things you did that maybe you'd rather not remember at all. I know I can.

And it is right that we regret these things. Was it RL that offered the perfectly good analogy of killing someone and then talking about "moving on" with "no regrets"? It's in hating those things we did that our hope comes. Recognizing that WE did things that anyone else would find despicable. From there, we can determine never to do those things again, to change our minds and hearts so that we hate them, so that we never stab a friend in the back (even figuratively), never leave a woman pregnant and in the lurch, or whatever. It's called "metanoia" in Greek; in English, "repentance".

Some people won't want to hear that. They may even hate hearing it. But it's true, and it's how we can really change the world - by changing ourselves.

AstarD
25-10-2013, 14:36
There is forgiveness for Cain, as well, although it is more oblique. When Abel's blood cried out to God, Cain also says that he's afraid he'll be killed while he's wandering around in exile away from his loved ones because of his crime. So God puts a sign on him to protect him.

quincy
25-10-2013, 15:28
Indeed it does depend on the person. And 999 times out of a thousand, people excuse their own faults.



where did you get this statistic?


Cain also says that he's afraid he'll be killed while he's wandering around in exile away from his loved ones because of his crime.

a thief will probably worry he will be caught! shall we feel sorry that he is in a state of anxiety? so you are saying that deep down Cain was a person who cared about his loved ones? In fact so much that he killed one of them?

rusmeister
25-10-2013, 16:17
where did you get this statistic?

From all of my life, both from internal observation of my own heart and external observation of the behavior of others.
As I said, some people won't want to hear it. But it is true.

C.S. Lewis 'Mere Christianity' page 88

When a man is getting better he understands more and more clearly the evil that is still left in him. When a man is getting worse, he understands his own badness less and less. A moderately bad man knows he is not very good: a thoroughly bad man thinks he is all right. This is common sense, really. You understand sleep when you are awake, not while you are sleeping. You can see mistakes in arithmetic when your mind is working properly: while you are making them you cannot see them. You can understand the nature of drunkenness when you are sober, not when you are drunk. Good people know about both bad and evil: bad people do not know about either.

This is why the people on their knees asking for forgiveness tthe most are e ones we call saints.

AstarD
25-10-2013, 16:31
a thief will probably worry he will be caught! shall we feel sorry that he is in a state of anxiety? so you are saying that deep down Cain was a person who cared about his loved ones? In fact so much that he killed one of them?
Of course he cared about his loved ones. He was just jealous that God preffered Abel's sacrifice over his, and he handled it wrong.

Suuryaa
25-10-2013, 20:42
And it is right that we regret these things. Was it RL that offered the perfectly good analogy of killing someone and then talking about "moving on" with "no regrets"? It's in hating those things we did that our hope comes. Recognizing that WE did things that anyone else would find despicable. From there, we can determine never to do those things again, to change our minds and hearts so that we hate them, so that we never stab a friend in the back (even figuratively), never leave a woman pregnant and in the lurch, or whatever. It's called "metanoia" in Greek; in English, "repentance".

Isn't this obvious?

rusmeister
25-10-2013, 21:12
Isn't this obvious?
Judging by the reactions of a number of people who suggest that we shouldn't regret anything, evidently not.
It's the same attitude that cannot imagine that a sense of shame can be a good thing, that can restrain us from doing evil.

quincy
26-10-2013, 14:59
Of course he cared about his loved ones

you write as if you knew him personally

Russian Lad
26-10-2013, 16:13
Another thread sabotaged by religious zealots...

celia
26-10-2013, 17:03
I think there's a basic human impulse to want a theory that explains everything, that answers every question that you might have about anything. Religion provides that, as well as Marxism, Scientology, libertarianism, and other philosophies. Once you jump in, you need never worry about the answer to any question again. That's the attraction, but it's also the downfall.

rusmeister
26-10-2013, 17:34
Another thread sabotaged by religious zealots...

Dunno, RL,
Are there any actions that we ought to regret? Earlier, you seemed to imply that there are (and quite sensibly!). Now you seem to be suggesting that religions do not offer answers to this question, that they cannot contribute to a discussion on our realization of the wrongs we have done.

rusmeister
26-10-2013, 17:38
I think there's a basic human impulse to want a theory that explains everything, that answers every question that you might have about anything. Religion provides that, as well as Marxism, Scientology, libertarianism, and other philosophies. Once you jump in, you need never worry about the answer to any question again. That's the attraction, but it's also the downfall.

There are also human impulses to eat food and engage in reproductive activity. But these are not unsupported impulses. There are excellent reasons for them. In general, the things that we find all men want are things that actually exist, whether we can attain them or not. A dessicated fish in the desert certainly would have had an impulse to find water. But not because water does not exist, but because it does, even though that fish could not get to it.

Similarly, there IS a holistic explanation that explains everything, whether we find it or not. The "impulse", as you put it, stems from an entirely reasonable desire to understand where we came from, where we are going, and why. A refusal to answer because SOME explanations are obviously NOT holistic, determining to be skeptical, to refuse to believe that anyone could find such a thing is itself, is itself a will to ignorance, a deliberate closing of one's eyes.

As to the kind of intelligent faith that I have found - one which continues to encourage me to ask questions and get answers - that you have not found it does not mean it does not exist. I don't think that I know everything, or even that my religion answers every imaginable question. Some questions are nonsense questions - "What is the smell of the color yellow?", and some are wholly outside of what the religion even claims to deal with ("What is the speed of light?")

Russian Lad
26-10-2013, 17:52
Now you seem to be suggesting that religions do not offer answers to this question, that they cannot contribute to a discussion on our realization of the wrongs we have done.

In my opinion, yes, they offer solutions, just like drugs or vodka do. For me it is not the solution, however, it is pure escapism.

rusmeister
27-10-2013, 00:35
In my opinion, yes, they offer solutions, just like drugs or vodka do. For me it is not the solution, however, it is pure escapism.

You seem to be unaware of the psychological attitudes that they use to help overcome self-destructive behaviors. If counseling and helping potential suicides, drug and alcohol addicts, people dealing with grief, all kinds of problems, is "escapism", you have to ask why all major airports (just as an example) include a chapel in addition to psychologists, etc, in the event of a disaster. Why, in the wake of the insanity of Sandy Hook, did people turn to what you characterize as drugs, vodka and opium. It's clear to me which of the views is saner.

Russian Lad
27-10-2013, 20:37
You seem to be unaware of the psychological attitudes that they use to help overcome self-destructive behaviors. If counseling and helping potential suicides, drug and alcohol addicts, people dealing with grief, all kinds of problems, is "escapism", you have to ask why all major airports (just as an example) include a chapel in addition to psychologists, etc, in the event of a disaster. Why, in the wake of the insanity of Sandy Hook, did people turn to what you characterize as drugs, vodka and opium. It's clear to me which of the views is saner.

Yes, they postpone the physical death*, but to you, of all people, I don't need to explain that it doesn't matter for the Eternity. It doesn't really matter how long you live, how you live is more important. Pushkin, surely on a self-destructing course with his duels, didn't live long enough to celebrate his 40th birthday, yet what he accomplished in his life, most likely you and I combined will never repeat.
* However, as a payment, they take your mind from you in return, it stops being yours and joins the multitudes of equally doctored minds. You become a breathing and walking corpse...

Alan65
27-10-2013, 21:21
You seem to be unaware of the psychological attitudes that they use to help overcome self-destructive behaviors. If counseling and helping potential suicides, drug and alcohol addicts, people dealing with grief, all kinds of problems, is "escapism", you have to ask why all major airports (just as an example) include a chapel in addition to psychologists, etc, in the event of a disaster. Why, in the wake of the insanity of Sandy Hook, did people turn to what you characterize as drugs, vodka and opium. It's clear to me which of the views is saner.

Most English Premier League football teams have a chaplain, mind you with the team I follow I think it is simply that they pray for divine intervention for a win :D

I somehow don't think the prayer room in an airport is there in case of a disaster, I think it is more akin to the smoking rooms or bars.

TolkoRaz
27-10-2013, 22:28
On many flights to / from and within the Middle East, passages from the Quran are announced before the in-flight safety video.

I know that I am safe because Allah is making sure we do not fly into any heavy turbulence or unexpectedly into the ground! :eek:

As they say: Insha'Allah! :piano:

إن شاء الله

Russian Lad
27-10-2013, 22:30
On many flights to / from and within the Middle East, passages from the Quran are announced before the in-flight safety video.

I know that I am safe because Allah is making sure we do not fly into any heavy turbulence or unexpectedly into the ground!

As they say: Insha'Allah!

إن شاء الله

That sounds like the necessary precaution.:10220::coffee:

rusmeister
27-10-2013, 23:23
Yes, they postpone the physical death*, but to you, of all people, I don't need to explain that it doesn't matter for the Eternity. It doesn't really matter how long you live, how you live is more important. Pushkin, surely on a self-destructing course with his duels, didn't live long enough to celebrate his 40th birthday, yet what he accomplished in his life, most likely you and I combined will never repeat.
* However, as a payment, they take your mind from you in return, it stops being yours and joins the multitudes of equally doctored minds. You become a breathing and walking corpse...

I didn't even say anything about eternity. I was just talking about this temporal life, the one that you think is the Alpha and Omega, the one that, being all there is according to your lights, ought to be prolonged, which is one of the effects of the Christian religion, at any rate.

So it looks like here you are evading that point and changing the subject.

As to "taking minds", I think your words the complete and total reversal of the truth. But you'll use even that observation to avoid acknowledging religious, and especially Christian activity that deals with regret and sorrow in quite appropriate ways. Again, I'll point to Sandy Hook as an example, though there are thousands of Christian organizations, charities, and so on that deal in counseling.

rusmeister
27-10-2013, 23:25
Most English Premier League football teams have a chaplain, mind you with the team I follow I think it is simply that they pray for divine intervention for a win :D

I somehow don't think the prayer room in an airport is there in case of a disaster, I think it is more akin to the smoking rooms or bars.

Until there IS a disaster. Your comment suggests that they never happen and that nobody goes or is referred there if they do.

Jack17
28-10-2013, 00:59
I didn't even say anything about eternity. I was just talking about this temporal life, the one that you think is the Alpha and Omega, the one that, being all there is according to your lights, ought to be prolonged, which is one of the effects of the Christian religion, at any rate.

So it looks like here you are evading that point and changing the subject.

As to "taking minds", I think your words the complete and total reversal of the truth. But you'll use even that observation to avoid acknowledging religious, and especially Christian activity that deals with regret and sorrow in quite appropriate ways. Again, I'll point to Sandy Hook as an example, though there are thousands of Christian organizations, charities, and so on that deal in counseling.
Rus, all I want to say regarding this discussion is to remind you that we are Russian Lad's only friends; so go easy on him. :ok:

Russian Lad
28-10-2013, 02:26
I didn't even say anything about eternity. I was just talking about this temporal life, the one that you think is the Alpha and Omega

I will die right now gladly, I am not afraid of dying, missed the chance on at least a couple of occasions, but in both cases neither was I sh;tting into my pants nor muttering: "Lord, have mercy on me!" or something similar.
It is you who seem to be afraid of embracing eternity, to the point of believing in a tale promising "life: to be continued" after you die.
And yes, go easy on your friend.:)

Jack17
28-10-2013, 04:41
I think you've put your finger on it RL. Everything I've ever seen ends; yet religion is selling eternal life. Go figure.

quincy
30-10-2013, 16:42
I think you've put your finger on it RL. Everything I've ever seen ends; yet religion is selling eternal life. Go figure.

a product will sell if there is a demand for it!

rusmeister
30-10-2013, 19:01
a product will sell if there is a demand for it!

And yet, there is something strange in the very fact of a world where everything ends (except a fairly consistent concept of morality), where we do not all shrug our shoulders when death comes to completely erase us forever and make all of our existence meaningless, but rather, desperately desire to NOT die. Writing it off as "instinct" is basically scientific mumbo-jumbo that does not explain the discrepancy at all.

So the thing you have yet to really explain in a satisfactory manner is this strange and inexplicable demand.

BabyFirefly
30-10-2013, 19:05
Writing it off as "instinct" is basically scientific mumbo-jumbo that does not explain the discrepancy at all.


I'll regret biting, but,

How is it "mumbo jumbo"? A species that does not wish to survive won't protect itself and reproduce, and will die out.

penka
30-10-2013, 19:15
And yet, there is something strange in the very fact of a world where everything ends (except a fairly consistent concept of morality), where we do not all shrug our shoulders when death comes to completely erase us forever and make all of our existence meaningless, but rather, desperately desire to NOT die. Writing it off as "instinct" is basically scientific mumbo-jumbo that does not explain the discrepancy at all.

So the thing you have yet to really explain in a satisfactory manner is this strange and inexplicable demand.

Part of the brain that is responsible for our "fight-or-flight" response, and ultimately for our will to survive is nicknamed for the "lizard brain", a part found even in reptiles. In the face of the immediate danger, one normally has no time to say a prayer. One fights, runs away or dies. It does not make our existence meaningless.
As even those who were not avid church-goes but decent humans would be remembered by the fellow humans. No amount of prayer will ever replace a kind human kind towards a fellow human being.

Russian Lad
30-10-2013, 21:27
And yet, there is something strange in the very fact of a world where everything ends (except a fairly consistent concept of morality), where we do not all shrug our shoulders when death comes to completely erase us forever and make all of our existence meaningless, but rather, desperately desire to NOT die. Writing it off as "instinct" is basically scientific mumbo-jumbo that does not explain the discrepancy at all.

So the thing you have yet to really explain in a satisfactory manner is this strange and inexplicable demand.

Death isn't even painful, Rus, I don't think you should be afraid. When I was knocked out in a bar fight once I can tell you - I didn't even feel the pain, had no time - snap - and there is black nothing. It is rather logical - you come from nothingness and return to it. Only the fear is in-between, but it is purely biological, take any animal, it has the same fear in-built in it, on a structural level.

Jack17
31-10-2013, 00:58
when death comes to completely erase us forever and make all of our existence meaningless

We've been through this before; but I don't understand why if something is temporary that makes it meaningless. Can you explain that one to me again?

rusmeister
31-10-2013, 04:41
I'll regret biting, but,

How is it "mumbo jumbo"? A species that does not wish to survive won't protect itself and reproduce, and will die out.

Because "instinct" is a mystical word, one that really says, "We have no idea what, but something drives or impels this behavior". Instinct as explanation says nothing. It only says that we do a thing. It does not say WHY. It invokes science while offering no real understanding. It makes us think we understand when in fact we don't.

Your own words here say only that we wish to survive, and protect ourselves and reproduce to do so. They do NOT explain the discrepancy.

To a fish - or anything - with no eyes, the word "darkness" has no meaning. If it were natural, not in the sense of "what occurs in nature" but in the sense of "what fulfills our natural desires" for us to die, then we would all approach death as we do sleep. So in that sense, death is wholly unnatural. All other "instincts" have a means of fulfillment. Hunger exists - and lucky for us, so does food. We thirst - and water exists. All of our natural desires have a corresponding means of fulfilling those desires; the means actually exist, whether we can obtain them or not. A dead fish in the desert does not prove that water does not exist, but on the contrary, that it does.

We all have, generally speaking, a desire to not die, not be permanently "erased". This is just as sensible a desire as hunger is, for our first principle ought to be that life is a good thing in its essence, however wrong thngs may go in it.

I'm saying the materialist explanations (that there is nothing outside of this material universe) utterly fail to make sense of that discrepancy. On the contrary, I find they lead to utter meaninglessness, not only in the transcendent and eternal, but in the here and now. If my life will mean nothing in twenty years then it means nothing now; temporal meaning cannot exist without transcendental meaning, and as soon as we talk about the (personal, individual, temporal) meaning of the life of any person long dead, say, an ancient Roman slave, this becomes clear. The most the materialist can say is that "he produced me", which is tantamount to saying that the purpose of hammers is to make more hammers. (This is going to lead to the fact that in order to speak of meaning at all, there must be someone somewhere for it to mean something to.)

Hmmm. Your talk of "biting" and mine of fish seems to be pointing to something... :)

rusmeister
31-10-2013, 04:52
Part of the brain that is responsible for our "fight-or-flight" response, and ultimately for our will to survive is nicknamed for the "lizard brain", a part found even in reptiles. In the face of the immediate danger, one normally has no time to say a prayer. One fights, runs away or dies. It does not make our existence meaningless.
As even those who were not avid church-goes but decent humans would be remembered by the fellow humans. No amount of prayer will ever replace a kind human kind towards a fellow human being.
I think I pretty much addressed this in my response to BG. Speaking of having time in the face of danger is irrelevant, though. We have time to speak of it NOW, and can think about it NOW. (And "Lord, have mercy!" takes roughly a second to say, so the danger has to strike FAST to beat that. I still remember my mother crying out to the Lord when she lost control of our car on an icy hill and we flipped and totalled the car. It was pretty fast, but she had time.)

Because we are creatures that demand meaning, speaking of "lizard brains" is totally unsatisfying. We are not lizards, and so, unlike lizards, if we are going to die, we want our death, as well as our life, to have at least SOME meaning that outlasts us, that never ends.

I have no idea why you think I would want prayer to replace kindness. I think the two things quite compatible. And I think all humans, not only church-goers, desire these things.

Russian Lad
31-10-2013, 08:12
Because "instinct" is a mystical word, one that really says, "We have no idea what, but something drives or impels this behavior". Instinct as explanation says nothing. It only says that we do a thing. It does not say WHY. It invokes science while offering no real understanding. It makes us think we understand when in fact we don't.

Your own words here say only that we wish to survive, and protect ourselves and reproduce to do so. They do NOT explain the discrepancy.

To a fish - or anything - with no eyes, the word "darkness" has no meaning. If it were natural, not in the sense of "what occurs in nature" but in the sense of "what fulfills our natural desires" for us to die, then we would all approach death as we do sleep. So in that sense, death is wholly unnatural. All other "instincts" have a means of fulfillment. Hunger exists - and lucky for us, so does food. We thirst - and water exists. All of our natural desires have a corresponding means of fulfilling those desires; the means actually exist, whether we can obtain them or not. A dead fish in the desert does not prove that water does not exist, but on the contrary, that it does.

We all have, generally speaking, a desire to not die, not be permanently "erased". This is just as sensible a desire as hunger is, for our first principle ought to be that life is a good thing in its essence, however wrong thngs may go in it.

I'm saying the materialist explanations (that there is nothing outside of this material universe) utterly fail to make sense of that discrepancy. On the contrary, I find they lead to utter meaninglessness, not only in the transcendent and eternal, but in the here and now. If my life will mean nothing in twenty years then it means nothing now; temporal meaning cannot exist without transcendental meaning, and as soon as we talk about the (personal, individual, temporal) meaning of the life of any person long dead, say, an ancient Roman slave, this becomes clear. The most the materialist can say is that "he produced me", which is tantamount to saying that the purpose of hammers is to make more hammers. (This is going to lead to the fact that in order to speak of meaning at all, there must be someone somewhere for it to mean something to.)


The way I see it, we are just a part of the ecosystem here that sprang to life due to favorable circumstances. You wipe everything alive off the face of this planet, or even destroy the planet itself, the universe will continue its course.
Yes, we are a part of a great mistery. But your solution is like trying to go to space on a horse. Science does't owe you anything - it has made your life more comfortable, so enjoy it, before you become fertilizer - an important function in the ecosystem, by the way. But no, you are too proud to help some plants grow, you want to rule. Pride, Rus. There is nothing but blinding pride behind your religiousness. Maybe that's the only plan for you and me here - to become fertilizer, our ancestors served as food rather often as well, I am sure.

quincy
31-10-2013, 11:42
but rather, desperately desire to NOT die. Writing it off as "instinct" is basically scientific mumbo-jumbo that does not explain the discrepancy at all.

So the thing you have yet to really explain in a satisfactory manner is this strange and inexplicable demand.

when death comes naturally, animals accept it

man has programmed himself to believe that he should live for ever and ever..until eternity. He happily listens to the suggestion offered by religious leaders, media, and other sources ..it is a nice thing to believe in!

that is the discrepancy

rusmeister
31-10-2013, 12:42
when death comes naturally, animals accept it

man has programmed himself to believe that he should live for ever and ever..until eternity. He happily listens to the suggestion offered by religious leaders, media, and other sources ..it is a nice thing to believe in!

that is the discrepancy

You say "man has programmed himself" - which man? Where could the man exist who is truly not so "programmed" to begin with? (An entirely different animal from the atheist who determinedly rejects or denies that desire)

There is a huge difference between wishing to live in the most magnificent palace in fabulous wealth, and desiring that death were not, did not exist. The one IS merely a nice thing to believe in, though we can certainly live without those fabulous wishes, and often reasonably well. But we cannot live at all, well or otherwise, if we are dead.

What good will it be thirty or fifty years from now that you learned Russian, became a whiz computer programmer, traveled the world, learned so much about life, acquired so much wisdom in human relations, etc etc? Who will care? If even a few people remember, in another generation they will be dead and your memory and legacy will be worth as much as any dead Roman slave's is now. Even the most famous people really only have a few scraps remembered about them, and those sometimes wildly distorted, or simply untrue - fantasy fodder.

It means the complete reversal of everything you have struggled towards; a complete nullification of your life, like a sand castle right on the edge of the shore. It means that everything is sand castles. In the face of that, it is not merely "nice" to hope for more than this life; it is essential even to obtain any meaning that means anything, for meaninglessness is the alternative. If you stick to your guns, then that is what you choose. It is essentially sticking your fingers in your ears and screwing your eyes shut, saying, "I won't think about it, I won't think about it!" until one day you look up in a doctor's office or whatever and see death coming at you like a freight train. Then you will, like as not, react like the man in "The Master and Margerita" whom Woland told he had cancer, running from doctor to doctor, suddenly realizing the significance of death to your life. You can speak of animals "accepting it", as if they had foreknowledge of their own death; I do not think you will find it all that easy to accept when you grasp that the complete end of you is upon you. In a flash, it no longer matters how much fun you had at discos or cinemas, and any friends and family you have who are still trying to "enjoy life" will start treating you like a leper, not knowing what to say, only that the fact of your imminent death makes them rather uncomfortable.

rusmeister
31-10-2013, 12:48
The way I see it, we are just a part of the ecosystem here that sprang to life due to favorable circumstances. You wipe everything alive off the face of this planet, or even destroy the planet itself, the universe will continue its course.
Yes, we are a part of a great mistery. But your solution is like trying to go to space on a horse. Science does't owe you anything - it has made your life more comfortable, so enjoy it, before you become fertilizer - an important function in the ecosystem, by the way. But no, you are too proud to help some plants grow, you want to rule. Pride, Rus. There is nothing but blinding pride behind your religiousness. Maybe that's the only plan for you and me here - to become fertilizer, our ancestors served as food rather often as well, I am sure.
But you won't be in the least able to appreciate that the universe continues in its course. As far as you are concerned, the universe is destroyed.
And even mysteries need living personalities to appreciate them. The dead can appreciate no mysteries.
Your call to "enjoy" life - essentially the hedonist call to "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die!" is an incredibly sad philosophy, especially for the unlucky bugger who gets hit by a car or discovers that he is terminally ill tomorrow. It is the enjoyment of life that a man on death row enjoying his last meal experiences, with the noose, gas chamber or whatever immediately to follow. It is a philosophy that has no answer to death, because it is not even a philosophy of life.

Russian Lad
31-10-2013, 15:17
But you won't be in the least able to appreciate that the universe continues in its course. As far as you are concerned, the universe is destroyed.
And even mysteries need living personalities to appreciate them. The dead can appreciate no mysteries.
Your call to "enjoy" life - essentially the hedonist call to "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die!" is an incredibly sad philosophy, especially for the unlucky bugger who gets hit by a car or discovers that he is terminally ill tomorrow. It is the enjoyment of life that a man on death row enjoying his last meal experiences, with the noose, gas chamber or whatever immediately to follow. It is a philosophy that has no answer to death, because it is not even a philosophy of life.

Rus, I think you already had a preview of what is like to be dead - try to remember yourself before you were born or even in your mother's womb. You will simply return to the same condition. Yes, it is sad, well, life has many sad moments. I don't have many answers - like how the universe is formed or what it is really like, for example. Religion doesn't answer that, either, or answers in a rather abstract way. We know quite a lot as it is, there are still limits we haven't crossed.
Every person is a hedonist to a certain extent, it is only natural. You have many children, it tells me you enjoy sex - it is purely hedonistic. I am sure you also enjoy the taste of food, for example.
And when both of us are dying, I don't think somehow that you will feel more happy than me. I am sure we both will be very upset.:) But like I said, the moment of death should not be painful, especially if it is abrupt. There is only a certain pain threshold a human body can respond to, anyway, after which there is unconsciousness. So, cheer up.:)
Besides, it is a scientific part - when the sperm Rusmeister attacked the womb and stayed there to become you, you had around 2 million competing sperms around you - all potential humans. They all died even before getting born, you won a huge jackpot basically, and yet it is not enough for you to be happy, you want much more.

rusmeister
31-10-2013, 16:12
Rus, I think you already had a preview of what is like to be dead - try to remember yourself before you were born or even in your mother's womb. You will simply return to the same condition. Yes, it is sad, well, life has many sad moments. I don't have many answers - like how the universe is formed or what it is really like, for example. Religion doesn't answer that, either, or answers in a rather abstract way. We know quite a lot as it is, there are still limits we haven't crossed.
Every person is a hedonist to a certain extent, it is only natural. You have many children, it tells me you enjoy sex - it is purely hedonistic. I am sure you also enjoy the taste of food, for example.
And when both of us are dying, I don't think somehow that you will feel more happy than me. I am sure we both will be very upset.:) But like I said, the moment of death should not be painful, especially if it is abrupt. There is only a certain pain threshold a human body can respond to, anyway, after which there is unconsciousness. So, cheer up.:)
Besides, it is a scientific part - when the sperm Rusmeister attacked the womb and stayed there to become you, you had around 2 million competing sperms around you - all potential humans. They all died even before getting born, you won a huge jackpot basically, and yet it is not enough for you to be happy, you want much more.
I feel like I'm talking to the dwarves in the stable in "The Last Battle" (The seventh and final chronicle of Narnia).

Russian Lad
31-10-2013, 17:25
I feel like I'm talking to the dwarves in the stable in "The Last Battle" (The seventh and final chronicle of Narnia).

Well, it is rather sad that you feel such a crushing mental superiority over me. Again, pride. You have tons of it. Isn't it something that your religion strictly prohibits? What if you end up in hell for that? Other than that, I don't think reading Chesterton on a regular basis makes you more intellectually developed than me, Rus. Let's just agree to disagree. You die and have eternal life - fine, man, that's a great deal. I die, I will prefer to just disappear if it is possible. Surely your God will grant me this simple request, if He exists? I am not asking for much, after all - all I want is to return to where I came from - to nothingness. You seem to be well-connected with the superior forces, reserve me a seat on the train to nothingness please.* In the interim, life is great and I am enjoying it.
*Thumbs Up | Terminator 2: Judgment Day - YouTube

rusmeister
31-10-2013, 18:04
On "agreeing to disagree":


The aim of the argument is differing in order to agree; the failure of argument is when you agree to differ..
GKC

quincy
01-11-2013, 11:29
You say "man has programmed himself" - which man? Where could the man exist who is truly not so "programmed" to begin with? .

throughout the ages man has wanted to believe that there is 'another life'

The Egyptian Pharaohs constructed the pyramids to reach to heavens...where they would enjoy another life

millions today believe in re-incarnation, this belief going back thousands of years

religious figures continue to promise us an eternal life in heaven (and want it for themselves ;)

...all of these are the result of mental analysis, or self-programming

rusmeister
01-11-2013, 14:22
throughout the ages man has wanted to believe that there is 'another life'
True.


The Egyptian Pharaohs constructed the pyramids to reach to heavens...where they would enjoy another life
True.


millions today believe in re-incarnation, this belief going back thousands of years
True.


religious figures continue to promise us an eternal life in heaven (and want it for themselves ;)

Um, do they guarantee this, and if so, who exactly guarantees it, and to whom? I know that Orthodox teaching offers no individual guarantees so you'd really have to be a lot more specific. But I think you are actually presenting a construction in your head, and certainly not Orthodox teaching (the only teaching you could possibly deal with to dismiss what I believe).


...all of these are the result of mental analysis, or self-programming


Really? On what basis do you know this? Who is the authority that declares this? Quincy, the internet guy? :)
I'm just saying that you aren't even touching the issue of authority, what it is, or what authority you have accepted in order to know anything at all (and you most certainly have).

zwilksberg
01-11-2013, 14:49
Agree with Rusmeister

quincy
01-11-2013, 18:23
Really? On what basis do you know this? Who is the authority that declares this? Quincy, the internet guy? :)
.

ever heard of wishful thinking?

on what basis are you convinced of the eternal life?

Russian Lad
01-11-2013, 18:31
ever heard of wishful thinking?

on what basis are you convinced of the eternal life?

Because dying for good is not logical and not fair, in his view.:) Also, it says so in the Bible and Chesterton confirms is, so it must be true. I wish everything was logical and fair in this life and after it, but I am far from believing it is the case.:)

rusmeister
01-11-2013, 21:34
Because dying for good is not logical and not fair, in his view.:) Also, it says so in the Bible and Chesterton confirms is, so it must be true. I wish everything was logical and fair in this life and after it, but I am far from believing it is the case.:)

The one thing you will evidently never get from RL is a true and accurate presentation of my view. It will always be my view as he wishes it were.
Logic DOES play a role in my view; that's the only part that is partially true.

rusmeister
01-11-2013, 21:51
ever heard of wishful thinking?

on what basis are you convinced of the eternal life?

Well, I laid out a short and sketchy version of why I believe your materialism cannot be true here: http://expat.ru/forum/showpost.php?p=1237654&postcount=146

You didn't notice or care to respond to it; it deals with your ideas, something that I have yet to see you really do with mine.

penka
01-11-2013, 22:00
There is both logics and fairness in giving up up your life for the person/people you hold dear.
Any expectancy of gratefulness corrupts it.

Russian Lad
01-11-2013, 23:41
The one thing you will evidently never get from RL is a true and accurate presentation of my view. It will always be my view as he wishes it were.
Logic DOES play a role in my view; that's the only part that is partially true.

Yes, logic is a BIG part in your view, you keep referring to it. Fairness doesn't? So you believe it would be fair to die for good?

quincy
02-11-2013, 00:33
Well, I laid out a short and sketchy version of why I believe your materialism cannot be true here: .

not all belief systems offer eternal life! It's not about materialism

darling
02-11-2013, 07:00
Nothing

rusmeister
02-11-2013, 12:58
not all belief systems offer eternal life! It's not about materialism

You can evade the points by denying materialism, but an unidentified "belief system" that says when you die it's all over is in fact materialist. I await your first effort to deal in detail with my comments, but I guess I shouldn't hold my breath. It's hard and fruitless work trying to out-argue the truth.

rusmeister
02-11-2013, 14:41
Yes, logic is a BIG part in your view, you keep referring to it. Fairness doesn't? So you believe it would be fair to die for good?

What on earth do you think is "fair"? Since when is life fair?

We see life as a gift, which incurs a debt we can never repay, and our salvation from the eternal death you treat as unimportant as equally unpayable, and not "owed" to us.



"Look at me, now," said the Ghost, slapping its chest (but the slap made no noise). "I gone straight all my life. I don't say I was a religious man and I don't say I had no faults, far from it. But I done my best all my life, see? I done my best by everyone, that's the sort of chap I was. I never asked for anything that wasn't mine by rights. If I wanted a drink I paid for it and if I took my wages I done my job, see? That's the sort I was and I don't care who knows it."

"It would be much better not to go on about that now."

"Who's going on? I'm not arguing. I'm just telling you the sort of chap I was, see? I'm asking for nothing but my rights. You may think you can put me down because you're dressed up like that (which you weren't when you worked under me) and I'm only a poor man. But I got to have my rights same as you, see?"

"Oh no. It's not so bad as that. I haven't got my rights, or I should not be here. You will not get yours either. You'll get something far better. Never fear."

"That's just what I say. I haven't got my rights. I always done my best and I never done nothing wrong. And what I don't see is why I should be put below a bloody murderer like you."

"Who knows whether you will be? Only be happy and come with me."

"What do you keep on arguing for? I'm only telling you the sort of chap I am. I only want my rights. I'm not asking for anybody's bleeding charity."

"Then do. At once. Ask for the Bleeding Charity. Everything is here for the asking and nothing can be bought."

"That may be very well for you, I daresay. If they choose to let in a bloody murderer all because he makes a poor mouth at the last moment, that's their lookout. But I don't see myself going in the same boat with you, see? Why should I? I don't want charity. I'm a decent man and if I had my rights I'd have been here long ago and you can tell them I said so."

The other shook his head. "You can never do it like that," he said. "Your feet will never grow hard enough to walk on our grass that way. You'd be tired out before we got to the mountains. And it isn't exactly true, you know." Mirth danced in his eyes as he said it.

"What isn't true?" asked the Ghost sulkily.

"You weren't a decent man and you didn't do your best. We none of us were and we none of us did. Lord bless you, it doesn't matter. There is no need to go into it all now."

"You!" gasped the Ghost. "You have the face to tell me I wasn't a decent chap?"

"Of course. Must I go into all that? I will tell you one thing to begin with. Murdering old Jack wasn't the worst thing I did. That was the work of a moment and I was half mad when I did it. But I murdered you in my heart, deliberately, for years. I used to lie awake at nights thinking what I'd do to you if ever I got the chance. That is why I have been sent to you now: to ask your forgiveness and to be your servant as long as you need one, and longer if it pleases you. I was the worst. But all the men who worked under you felt the same. You made it hard for us, you know. And you made it hard for your wife too and for your children."

"You mind your own business, young man," said the Ghost. "None of your lip, see? Because I'm not taking any impudence from you about my private affairs."

"There are no private affairs," said the other.

"And I'll tell you another thing," said the Ghost. "You can clear off, see? You're not wanted. I may be only a poor man but I'm not making pals with a murderer, let alone taking lessons from him. Made it hard for you and your like, did I? If I had you back there I'd show you what work is."

"Come and show me now," said the other with laughter in his voice. "It will be joy going to the mountains, but there will be plenty of work."

"You don't suppose I'd go with you?" "Don't refuse. You will never get there alone. And I am the one who was sent to you.

"So that's the trick, is it?" shouted the Ghost, outwardly bitter, and yet I thought there was a kind of triumph in its voice. It had been entreated: it could make a refusal: and this seemed to it a kind of advantage. "I thought there'd be some damned nonsense. It's all a clique, all a bloody clique. Tell them I'm not coming, see? I'd rather be damned than go along with you. I came here to get my rights, see? Not to go sniveling along on charity tied onto your apron-strings. If they're too fine to have me without you, I'll go home." It was almost happy now that it could, in a sense, threaten. "That's what I'll do," it repeated, "I'll go home, I didn't come here to be treated like a dog. I'll go home. That's what I'll do. Damn and blast the whole pack of you . . ." In the end, still grumbling, but whimpering also a little as it picked its way over the sharp grasses, it made off.
CS Lewis, "The Great Divorce"

Of course, if you don't want to understand what I'm trying to say, it doesn't matter what I post. But I am optimistic enough to hope for better. :)

quincy
02-11-2013, 20:09
You can evade the points by denying materialism, but an unidentified "belief system" that says when you die it's all over is in fact materialist

the universe is unknowable...so better to focus on life before death

rusmeister
02-11-2013, 20:44
the universe is unknowable...so better to focus on life before death

This is, in practice, materialism, whatever the theory.
Like I said. (http://expat.ru/forum/showpost.php?p=1237654&postcount=146)
You have no good response. I hold the high cards and I call.

Russian Lad
03-11-2013, 05:12
I hold the high cards and I call.

Wishful thinking again, Rus.:) You know how the universe was really made and what it consists of not better than him or me, you have not yet told me who was your God's creator even.:) You prefer not to think about it - it is too difficult.:) I know.:)

rusmeister
03-11-2013, 11:30
Wishful thinking again, Rus.:) You know how the universe was really made and what it consists of not better than him or me, you have not yet told me who was your God's creator even.:) You prefer not to think about it - it is too difficult.:) I know.:)

RL, if there were anything worthwhile in this post, that actually dealt with what I said, it might be worth responding. As it is...

TGP
04-11-2013, 22:03
I came across "Top Five Regrets of the Dying", a book written by a palliative nurse who cared for patients in the last 12 weeks of their lives. Maybe you read it, as she first were recording her talks with the patients in her blog which was very popular.
These regrets are:

1. I wish I'd had the courage to live a life true to myself, not the life others expected of me.

2. I wish I hadn't worked so hard.

3. I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings

4. I wish I had stayed in touch with my friends.

5. I wish that I had let myself be happier

She writes of the phenomenal clarity of vision that people gain at the end of their lives, and how we might learn from their wisdom. "When questioned about any regrets they had or anything they would do differently," she says, "common themes surfaced again and again."

I think that all regrets we have now are actually parts of these main regrets. We may not reliaze it, because we concentate on some particular things and do not see that all of them are just links of the chain which is becoming our bonds...and which is often put on us by the srurrounding environment and society.

TGP
04-11-2013, 22:15
"I wish I hadn't worked so hard" - I always suspected that hard work cannot be the main aim of life... :shame: unless you do what is really interesting to you, what you enjoy, or you have a great talent for something. In all other cases workaholics are akin to something abnormal. :11030:

Jack17
04-11-2013, 23:17
Nice post TGP. At least I'll never regret # 2.

quincy
11-11-2013, 01:48
"I wish I hadn't worked so hard" - I always suspected that hard work cannot be the main aim of life... :shame: unless you do what is really interesting to you, what you enjoy, or you have a great talent for something. In all other cases workaholics are akin to something abnormal. :11030:

probably the majority neither hate what they do or love what they do but if you change into a job that's more stimulating then your life is more fulfilling