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natlee
08-10-2013, 12:24
Was doing a quick yandex search for something this morning, when the news on Pugacheva and Galkin came up. (Yup, I'm always the last to find out what's going on with our 'stars' :D) Age, you say? Too late to have kids, you say? :9451:

The only piece in English a quick google search came up with - could it have been written by one of expat.ru English teachers? :D :shame:

http://news-4y.blogspot.ru/2013/10/alla-pugacheva-and-maxim-galkin.html

Dunno about you bunch, but I've decided I can now relax for 15 years or so, and have my son in due time :idea: :D

FatAndy
08-10-2013, 12:34
Was doing a quick yandex search for something this morning, when the news on Pugacheva and Galkin came up. (Yup, I'm always the last to find out what's going on with our 'stars' :D) Age, you say? Too late to have kids, you say? :9451:
With surrogate mother it's never late ;)

Benedikt
08-10-2013, 12:42
Dunno about you bunch, but I've decided I can now relax for 15 years or so, and have my son in due time :idea: :D[/QUOTE]

what will they call her -Mama- or -Granny-?

natlee
08-10-2013, 12:46
With surrogate mother it's never late ;) Yah but apparently she froze her egg 11 years ago (at the age of 53???) and the kids are biologically theirs!

natlee
08-10-2013, 12:48
what will they call her -Mama- or -Granny-? Who cares if I can have a child at the age of 64! :eek: :D

okiey
08-10-2013, 13:03
She's older than my Mum :))

Jack17
08-10-2013, 19:18
Come on guys, everyone knows Maxim Galkin is gay, just like her former husband Kirkorov; the state should take the baby away from them and place it an orphanage where it can be raised in a healthy environment.

natlee
08-10-2013, 19:21
Come on guys, everyone knows Maxim Galkin is gay; the state should take the baby away from them and place it an orphanage where it can be raised in a healthy atmosphere. You start missing Rus the sec he stops posting, dontcha! :D

Nah, I believe Pugacheva who says her sex life with Galkin is the best she's ever had! :vomit:

Either way, don't worry about Maxim raising the babies - I'm sure they'll be spending 99.999999% of the time with the nannies ;)

Btnaughton
08-10-2013, 19:32
Come on guys, everyone knows Maxim Galkin is gay, just like her former husband Kirkorov; the state should take the baby away from them and place it an orphanage where it can be raised in a healthy environment.

Honestly, aside from the random invetro fertilization, if you dislike gay folk so much ; blame the straight folk. We keep birthing gay babies.

Jack17
08-10-2013, 19:34
Nah, I believe Pugacheva who says her sex life with Galkin is the best she's ever had! :vomit:

Oh, you mean better than her sex life with her former husband, Kirkorov?

TGP
08-10-2013, 21:08
Everyone knows that Galkin and Kirkorov are gays... Who everyone? Did they hold a candle?

I just like such satements :soapbox: :7525:

okiey
08-10-2013, 21:18
Candle? .... I am lost. But, if candle has some gay connotation, then Kirkorov will have held 'it', and some.

Jack17
08-10-2013, 21:21
Well, TGP, you wouldn't expect them to announce it on HTB, would you?

I mean, the Russian government could interpret such an announcement by two of the most famous people in Russia as an act to influence those under the age of 18 to a disgusting life of sex with their own gender.

Sana
08-10-2013, 22:05
Saying that kirkorov and galkin are gays is funny. Russians say that someone held a candle in front of one's bed when we have doubts in what was said about a person.
Here in Russia nobody believes galkin to be a gay, neither kirkorov is. Rumor had it one time that kirkorov liked boys, but no, it was just a PR story.
I don't see any reason to live with an aged woman just out of fear to be considered a gay. Why not reveal the truth then? We have many gays in the Russian show biz.. They are not scared to admit that.

I believe if she froze her egg at 53 then it was definitely the time when she loved kirkorov, which means that all her cells and energy were programmed on kirkorov not on galkin.....

okiey
08-10-2013, 22:26
Its just as funny to say they are not. Kirkorov makes Boy George, or George Michael, look straight.

okiey
08-10-2013, 22:28
Philip Georgievich and Maxim Georgievich by any chance?

Sana
08-10-2013, 22:32
Its just as funny to say they are not. Kirkorov makes Boy George, or George Michael, look straight.

Any evidences? Kirkorov used to love pugacheva really much.
And now, what is the reason for her to live with galkin? Why should she mess up with a gay?

Jack17
09-10-2013, 00:01
It's devious Western Capitalist like you okiey who spread these vicious rumors about great Russian artists and humorists. Next, I suppose, you will tell us that Zhvanetsky is gay?

okiey
09-10-2013, 00:52
I always take people at face value

Russian Lad
09-10-2013, 05:07
Мульт личности - "Предновогодние закупки" (Пугачева) - YouTube

Benedikt
09-10-2013, 06:57
I don't see any reason to live with an aged woman just out of fear to be considered a gay. Why not reveal the truth then? We have many gays in the Russian show biz.. They are not scared to admit that.



when an older woman has a younger man/husband the male is immediately considered as -toy-boy-. see Madonna,Demi More and the like.

but when a man/male, barely able to move out from bed unaided has a young girl/wife/lover/whatever, he is considered a -MAN-, stud, and everybody envies him.
weird world indeed.

VicY
09-10-2013, 08:36
Its just as funny to say they are not. Kirkorov makes Boy George, or George Michael, look straight.

Huh? George Michael doesn't even look gay. :p

VicY
09-10-2013, 08:39
I always take people at face value

And that "value" solely depends on one's conditioning of the mind.
If one thinks that an ear-ring in a man's ear is a sign of homosexuality, then every such man will be "gay" to them!

VicY
09-10-2013, 08:42
It's devious Western Capitalist like you okiey who spread these vicious rumors about great Russian artists and humorists. Next, I suppose, you will tell us that Zhvanetsky is gay?

Nice attempt at sarcasm, Jack.

I believe (and it has been voiced more than once in the Russian media) that Kirkorov is bi-sexual; as for Galkin, he most probably isn't gay, nor does he look like one.

Jack17
09-10-2013, 16:24
nor does he look like one.

Oh really VicY? Well, please educate this dumb Californian and describe for me what a real gay person looks like.

Sana
09-10-2013, 17:03
They are not gay, gay people prefer not to hide their sexual orientation.

VicY
09-10-2013, 17:03
Oh really VicY? Well, please educate this dumb Californian and describe for me what a real gay person looks like.

You should ask okiey first. He brought up the look aspect, if I remember correctly. Something about Boy George and George Michael. :p

okiey
09-10-2013, 17:08
I think I'll stay out of this one. Its one thing to have an eye for the girls, but I wouldn't want to be seen as having "an eye for the boys" :)

VicY
09-10-2013, 17:12
A nice, convenient excuse, mate. :farout:

okiey
09-10-2013, 17:49
Well nobody could be in any doubt about Boy George being gay and God fobid if I ever saw George Michael's shoe appearing under a public toilet door :)

Russian Lad
09-10-2013, 19:48
Galkin is either a gerontophile (their age difference if 27 years) or he loves money really hard.:) Doesn't seem gay to me either. Kirkorov - it is hard to tell.:) Well, Jack, even if both of them are gay, you can see for yourself that the gay culture is not oppressed in Russia, even widely celebrated on all central TV channels.:)

Jack17
09-10-2013, 20:20
you can see for yourself that the gay culture is not oppressed in Russia, even widely celebrated on all central TV channels.:)

"not oppressed?" Yeah, none of you Russians believe two of the biggest queens in Russian show business are gay. Right.

But really, Ala is not a cougar; she's just a common fag hag. Actually she and her pretend husbands are really about money. These faux marriages are just a device to peek the Russian public's interest in her and her so called mates. Now this consummate showwoman has gone so far as to claim she's pregnant. Well, she's succeeded because we're all talking about her which is the whole idea in the first place.

Honestly, sometimes you Russians are like babes-in-the-woods. It used to be "There is no sex in the Soviet Union." Now it's just "There is no gay sex in the Russian Federation."

Russian Lad
09-10-2013, 20:24
Yeah, none of you Russians believe two of the biggest queens in Russian show business are gay. Right.

Quite the contrary is true actually. Most Russians think he and Kirkorov are gay. Which doesn't stop them from being very popular. Which doesn't tie in well with your theory about oppressed homosexuals in Russia.


Now this consummate showwoman has gone so far as to claim she's pregnant. Well, she's succeeded because we're all talking about her which is the whole idea in the first place.

She is not pregnant, from what I understand they have got two twins from a foster mother. I doubt these marriages are for increased popularity per se, this woman has all the connections, popularity and money there is to have in the Russian show biz even without such cheap moves, just as Kirkorov. Galkin - may be.


It used to be "There is no sex in the Soviet Union." Now it's just "There is no gay sex in the Russian Federation."

Well, when this woman said that in the USSR, most Soviets just had a good laugh about it. What she meant though was along Rusmeister's and Christian lines - that the primary objective of this activity is procreation and that the pleasure from the process is secondary or even should be neglected. Many Christians believe in it, including in your country. No gay sex here? Why? There sure is, but I don't feel like I should be proud about it. Let me remind you, we also have zoophiles, and they are legally entertaining themselves, while your zoophiles are rotting in democratic prisons.:)

Jack17
09-10-2013, 21:00
Quite the contrary is true actually. Most Russians think he and Kirkorov are gay.

OK, then you and the other Russians on this thread think differently from the majority of your countrymen.

But, just curious, has there been an official "all Russian" pole that asks the question of every Russian, "Are Kirkorov and Galkin gay? Seems to me such a pole and question today might be against Russian law; at least, you'd need to be careful not to ask anyone under 18.

Russian Lad
09-10-2013, 21:35
OK, then you and the other Russians on this thread think differently from the majority of your countrymen.

Why?:) I also think Kirkorov is gay, Galkin - a big question, but it is possible.:) Either that or he loves money real bad. I cannot say I am a fan of either of them, of course, but I am not clamorous to persecute them either.:) They are popular mostly among little educated people, especially women. Which is the majory of the population anyway.:) Slaves of the regime need some down-to-earth entertainment, they provide it galore. You have plenty of such shit in your country as well. Madonna comes to mind right away, for example.


Seems to me such a pole and question today might be against Russian law; at least, you'd need to be careful not to ask anyone under 18.

Under 16, not 18. Well, usually I don't go about questioning high school age teenagers about sex in general and about gays in particular, do you?:) I have other ideas when I think about leisure time. Alas, this year will be very busy, I will not have any.:) By the way, the age of consent in Russia is 16 y.o., I believe it is higher in the US in some states and is 18 y.o.? One more example for you how democratic and open-minded Russia is about sex, when compared with some other countries.:)

natlee
09-10-2013, 23:23
RL is correct, they did have the twins via surrogate. The big ? is how true the story about her having frozen her egg 11 years ago is (she was 53 ffs, if she had anything left to freeze :D why on earth didn't she give it to the surrogate THEN?) Most of us assume the babies are biologically his but not hers (although that's not the story they're feedin' us :)) I don't think Galkin is gay. Kirkorov - I have no idea, mostly both, but the story about his undying love for Alla sounds true enough to me (or, rather, I believe there's SOME truth to it!), strangely! He even named his daughter after her :p

The bunch of them seem mad to me, I mean she used to be the queen but certainly not in the last 15 to 20 years... but hey, to each their own!

Jack17
10-10-2013, 05:12
Natlee, all I can say is there are two things Russians (especially Russian women) take way too seriously - horoscopes and Russian pop stars. These people are as "mad" as Bill Gates or Abramovich. It's all just fictitious pablum for the fans.

VicY
10-10-2013, 06:30
Well nobody could be in any doubt about Boy George being gay and God fobid if I ever saw George Michael's shoe appearing under a public toilet door :)

Once again, we're up against looks/image issue.
I think most people (whether in Russia or elsewhere) will agree about Boy George.
George Michael? Not at all sure. He looks like so many show biz figures that aren't remotely gay (or, at least, never admitted it).
On the other hand, Elton John's image used to be rather timid, for example.

VicY
10-10-2013, 06:44
"not oppressed?" Yeah, none of you Russians believe two of the biggest queens in Russian show business are gay. Right.


Galkin, a queen?!
Care to post at least one picture of him where one could definitely say: "here is a real queen!" :p
And before you say something about horoscopes or taking pop stars seriously, no, I don't give a damn about them. In fact, I only hear about them once in a blue moon and only when a friend from home sends a link or two. They could marry an alien and have a baby by them, for all I care.

I'm on this issue because somehow you have got it in your head that if anything YOU know for sure that they are gay (straight/transexual/insert here)! Have they contacted Jack the Almighty personally and confessed about it all???

rusmeister
10-10-2013, 09:15
Interesting.
Three pages of posts and nothing about how children would feel upon realizing that their mother is essentially too old to take care of them, let alone grandchildren. That your grandparents are long dead, to only be able to look at pictures.
To have other kids tease you mercilessly when they figure out that your "grandmother" is your biological mother.
For her to be too tired to listen to your prattle about soccer teams or Barbie dolls.
To be there, when, at 25, they would still like to turn to their mother for advice, or ask her to help watch their own kids for a few hours, and only able to address a gravestone.

Such a situation may be the result of tragedy; as a conscious choice, it is insane.

It seems that to people today, children are a mere inconvenience, tertiary and subordinate to whatever we happen to want.

xSnoofovich
10-10-2013, 11:05
George Michael? Not at all sure.


Here you go again.... (shakes head).

Everyone has known George Michael was gay since he admitted it to CNN back in...... 1998 !!!!!!!!!!

http://edition.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/9804/11/george.michael/

not only that, but he was caught trying to have or having gay sex in public bathrooms in parks......

xSnoofovich
10-10-2013, 11:09
Galkin, a queen?!
Care to post at least one picture of him where one could definitely say: "here is a real queen!" :p

I'm on this issue because somehow you have got it in your head that if anything YOU know for sure that they are gay (straight/transexual/insert here)! Have they contacted Jack the Almighty personally and confessed about it all???

Here is a major publication calling him exactly that-

"Witty gay icon Maxim Galkin, 33, is single - but lives with Alla Pugacheva, a 60-year-old ex-singing diva."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1221103/Strictly-Come-Dancing-How-rest-world-does-televisions-popular-entertainment-show.html

or in Russian--->

http://life-star.ru/page/2171

Максим Галкин - гей
В тусовке шоу-бизнеса давно уже не являются секретом гомосексуальные пристрастия известного юмориста Максима Галкина. Особенно любит подколоть своего друга острая на язык Примадонна, которую молодой пародист по обоюдному согласию использует как прикрытие.

К слову, Алла Пугачева некогда совершенно серьезно пообещала, что ее новый брак, если он состоится, будет браком с гомосексуалом. Обещание выйти замуж за гея - часть завещания ее друга - шведа Якоба Далина, скончавшегося от последствий СПИДа в начале 1990-х. С Якобом Алла Пугачева дружила долгие годы.

Sana
10-10-2013, 13:27
It's only one piece of info - you won't find such an info anywhere nowadays. We call it the gutter journalism / scandal sheet / tabloid . The article is of 2009, since then we haven't had any info on this subject. On the contrary, and it was on one of the Russian TV channels, when they (pugacheva and galkin) revealed some details of their private life with the clear indication of the time (from 16:00 to 17:00 or so) when they tend to make love during the day. They stated it openly, officially.... It all sounded ridiculous, but they both said that almost simultaneously...

xSnoofovich
10-10-2013, 13:51
age is just a number, and jail is just a room

xSnoofovich
10-10-2013, 13:54
The article is of 2009, since then we haven't had any info on this subject.

u talking about the dm article? the guy is a nobody outside of russia. he is lucky to have been mentioned one time.

but, it does prove my point. everyone knows he is gay, and has been for quite some time...

VicY
10-10-2013, 14:09
Here you go again.... (shakes head).

Everyone has known George Michael was gay since he admitted it to CNN back in...... 1998 !!!!!!!!!!

http://edition.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/9804/11/george.michael/

not only that, but he was caught trying to have or having gay sex in public bathrooms in parks......

Look, have you read this thread from the very beginning??
Nowhere have I said that George Michael wasn't gay! All I said is that he didn't look gay (since we got on the topic of looks here), neither before nor after he admitted it.

VicY
10-10-2013, 14:11
Here is a major publication calling him exactly that-

"Witty gay icon Maxim Galkin, 33, is single - but lives with Alla Pugacheva, a 60-year-old ex-singing diva."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1221103/Strictly-Come-Dancing-How-rest-world-does-televisions-popular-entertainment-show.html

or in Russian--->

http://life-star.ru/page/2171

Максим Галкин - гей
В тусовке шоу-бизнеса давно уже не являются секретом гомосексуальные пристрастия известного юмориста Максима Галкина. Особенно любит подколоть своего друга острая на язык Примадонна, которую молодой пародист по обоюдному согласию использует как прикрытие.

К слову, Алла Пугачева некогда совершенно серьезно пообещала, что ее новый брак, если он состоится, будет браком с гомосексуалом. Обещание выйти замуж за гея - часть завещания ее друга - шведа Якоба Далина, скончавшегося от последствий СПИДа в начале 1990-х. С Якобом Алла Пугачева дружила долгие годы.

So all you could offer in response is a copypaste from a tabloid?? LOL, next time I'll be backing up all my comments with quotes from the Daily Mail. :trampoline:

xSnoofovich
10-10-2013, 14:28
So all you could ......

Angry today, are we?

natlee
10-10-2013, 14:45
Natlee, all I can say is there are two things Russians (especially Russian women) take way too seriously - horoscopes and Russian pop stars. Hmmm no, I don't care for the horoscopes, and neither do I care for the pop stars. This was just something that came up in the search, and was news to me. Or are you doubting the fact that the twins indeed exist? :)

One thing I don't quite understand, Jack, is how on earth you can tell for certain who is or isn't gay? Please do share, I'd love to know! ;)

Sana
10-10-2013, 14:52
u talking about the dm article? the guy is a nobody outside of russia. he is lucky to have been mentioned one time.

but, it does prove my point. everyone knows he is gay, and has been for quite some time...

Yeah, I mean the article you pasted.
I agree only with the fact that he is a nobody outside Russia and will always be one,

natlee
10-10-2013, 14:53
Interesting.
Three pages of posts and nothing about how children would feel upon realizing that their mother is essentially too old to take care of them, let alone grandchildren. That your grandparents are long dead, to only be able to look at pictures.
To have other kids tease you mercilessly when they figure out that your "grandmother" is your biological mother.
For her to be too tired to listen to your prattle about soccer teams or Barbie dolls.
To be there, when, at 25, they would still like to turn to their mother for advice, or ask her to help watch their own kids for a few hours, and only able to address a gravestone.

Such a situation may be the result of tragedy; as a conscious choice, it is insane.

It seems that to people today, children are a mere inconvenience, tertiary and subordinate to whatever we happen to want. Er, ok. First of, Galkin is plenty young to be 'taking care of' these kids. But we all know the parents won't really be the ones taking care of them, don't we? ;) Personally, I wouldn't worry about these babies. Besides plenty of nannies, they (will) have their dad and their sister Kristina and her three children to chat to, even when the mother's long gone.

As far as grandparents, I find your comment ridiculous, sorry. My granddad died when my father was 11, so? Should he not have had kids because they wouldn't have had a granddad? What about those growing up without parents altogether, say, in an orphanage? Are they not supposed to be having kids, in your (odd) view? Just curious...

And do you seriously think anyone will dare tease the children of Pugacheva about her age? If anything, most will be jealous! (if not of her per se, then of the opportunities these kids are going to have in life!)

okiey
10-10-2013, 15:21
George Michael is not the gay-extrovert that Boy George is, but he does look gay to me. He's got an air of femininity about him, despite his rugged looks.

Maybe I am biased in my opinion because I know he's gay.

Anyhow, whether he is or he isn't gay is neither here nor there; its his business.

When I first made the point earlier in the thread the example I intended using was Boy George; then I remembered a gay bar in Dublin called The George, then I started to think that George in itself is a kind of gay name ... and that's when George Michael popped into my mind:)

TolkoRaz
10-10-2013, 15:26
When I first made the point earlier in the thread the example I intended using was Boy George; then I remembered a gay bar in Dublin called The George, then I started to think that George in itself is a kind of gay name ... and that's when George Michael popped into my mind:)

Thanks for that, George! :D

rusmeister
10-10-2013, 16:37
Er, ok. First of, Galkin is plenty young to be 'taking care of' these kids. But we all know the parents won't really be the ones taking care of them, don't we? ;) Personally, I wouldn't worry about these babies. Besides plenty of nannies, they (will) have their dad and their sister Kristina and her three children to chat to, even when the mother's long gone.

As far as grandparents, I find your comment ridiculous, sorry. My granddad died when my father was 11, so? Should he not have had kids because they wouldn't have had a granddad? What about those growing up without parents altogether, say, in an orphanage? Are they not supposed to be having kids, in your (odd) view? Just curious...

And do you seriously think anyone will dare tease the children of Pugacheva about her age? If anything, most will be jealous! (if not of her per se, then of the opportunities these kids are going to have in life!)

Wow. Talk about zero compassion or sympathy for what children need or want (and I mean what they are right to want).

So mothers are not essential? If you could choose, as a child, you would be just fine with a daddy and no mommy? C'mon, no child in its right mind (and they pretty much all are) would think like that. They would want - and I say NEED - a mother as well as a father. Mothers are NOT expendable. Neither are fathers. It is ALWAYS a tragedy when one is absent. Any child capable of realizing what normal is - and they will, however desperately you try to hide the concept of a normal family from them - will consciously want it (and will want it unconsciously even as long as they don't understand their situation).

And when I spoke about grandparents, I spoke of what any normal person would want - the ability to be with, to talk to, to at least grow up with their grandparents. It seems like you are suggesting that grandparents are expendable and unimportant, as well.

I do not say people should not have children. But I say, as one with experience, that the children's needs in this regard matter, and the whole point is that they are indifferent to those needs. The normal family is a normal thing. It is what ought to be defended against this wild abnormality that places the whims of the individual above the needs of children for normality.

Any normal child, given a choice between abstract "opportunities" and a mother who will be there for them well into adulthood, will make the obvious and common sense choice. I'm rather surprised that you, being a mother, don't see that. No child would choose Oxford University and a gated community over a normal father and mother.

natlee
10-10-2013, 17:05
In case you've forgotten already, Rus, I am a SINGLE mother. And to be perfectly honest, am sick and tired of hearing from you just how ABNORMAL that situation is for (my) child(ren). Circumstances differ, and children grow up just fine under ones you (being God?) don't consider NORMAL. Sure, I'd have preferred for my daughter to have (more of) her father in her life, but thought it was healthier, under OUR circumstances, for her to end up with just me full-time and her dad visiting. As someone who comes from a 'broken' family myself, I can tell you that despite the difficulties, I by far preferred living without my dad whom I adored to living with both my parents seeing them fight on a daily basis. So, when it got to that point in my own family, I didn't see much of a choice. That was our JOINT decision.

It's just great that you managed to avoid divorce, but please quit talking like you're God himself. You weren't only smart but lucky as well. Not all of us are.

As far as the original subject, despite finding these characters mildly (er) annoying, I'm not going to even attempt to judge their actions because neither you, nor me know all of the circumstances, and somehow, I do not doubt these kids will have good lives. Having a mother is indeed important, but how important a mother living the life of Pugacheva (or anyone else in the circles) is I do not know. Her daughter Kristina (whom she had young) as far as I know, spent the majority of her time with the grandparents barely seeing her mom.

Russian Lad
10-10-2013, 17:10
Interesting.
Three pages of posts and nothing about how children would feel upon realizing that their mother is essentially too old to take care of them, let alone grandchildren. That your grandparents are long dead, to only be able to look at pictures.
To have other kids tease you mercilessly when they figure out that your "grandmother" is your biological mother.
For her to be too tired to listen to your prattle about soccer teams or Barbie dolls.
To be there, when, at 25, they would still like to turn to their mother for advice, or ask her to help watch their own kids for a few hours, and only able to address a gravestone.

Such a situation may be the result of tragedy; as a conscious choice, it is insane.

It seems that to people today, children are a mere inconvenience, tertiary and subordinate to whatever we happen to want.

Rus, I don't respect neither Glakin nor Pugecheva in her current role on the stage, but I find your comments simply disgusting. Those children are alive, that's what counts for them first of all. I am sure they will find many reasons to be thankful and to love whatever they have.
You seem to have many children and work as a mere language teacher in a third world country, I am sure your children lived in very harsh conditions in their childhood years, maybe even inhumane ones, however, I am still very glad you have many children and wish them all the best.

VicY
10-10-2013, 17:18
Angry today, are we?

Me? I'm perfectly fine. Whatever makes you think so? In fact, that smiley suggested I was anything but.

xSnoofovich
10-10-2013, 17:18
All I said is that he didn't look gay, neither before nor after he admitted it.


I have to say, that is a pretty bigoted, closed minded, and hateful thing to say.

Who are you to determine or even dictate how gays should or should not look?

xSnoofovich
10-10-2013, 17:24
what about Abraham and Sarah?


Interesting.
Three pages of posts and nothing about how children would feel upon realizing that their mother is essentially too old to take care of them, let alone grandchildren. That your grandparents are long dead, to only be able to look at pictures.
To have other kids tease you mercilessly when they figure out that your "grandmother" is your biological mother.
For her to be too tired to listen to your prattle about soccer teams or Barbie dolls.
To be there, when, at 25, they would still like to turn to their mother for advice, or ask her to help watch their own kids for a few hours, and only able to address a gravestone.

Such a situation may be the result of tragedy; as a conscious choice, it is insane.

It seems that to people today, children are a mere inconvenience, tertiary and subordinate to whatever we happen to want.

VicY
10-10-2013, 17:27
I have to say, that is a pretty bigoted, closed minded, and hateful thing to say.

Who are you to determine or even dictate how gays should or should not look?

Ohhhhh, my god. Really? "Bigoted"? "Closed-minded"? What other oh so awful words do you have for me?
Before you continue with your judgement of my words, I suggest you direct your attention to other posters', who more than once made comments about alleged "gay looks" :P Mr PC. :mml:

xSnoofovich
10-10-2013, 17:31
Ohhhhh, my god. Really?

yea really. you said it, not me.

VicY
10-10-2013, 17:34
yea really. you said it, not me.

Excuse me, I was NOT the first one to say that or indeed to delve into the topic. I suggest you read the thread carefully before picking on me (I know you couldn't resist it, eh?)

moscowcat
10-10-2013, 20:58
I hear very often that successful Russian professioal women get children (either born themselves or with the help of surrogat mothers) when they go retired at the age of 55. I hear such stories from friends almost every life. I think, that we should not condemn anybody and that we should remember about the value of each human life. Kitty

Jack17
10-10-2013, 21:57
Galkin, a queen?!
Care to post at least one picture of him where one could definitely say: "here is a real queen!" :p
And before you say something about horoscopes or taking pop stars seriously, no, I don't give a damn about them. In fact, I only hear about them once in a blue moon and only when a friend from home sends a link or two. They could marry an alien and have a baby by them, for all I care.

I'm on this issue because somehow you have got it in your head that if anything YOU know for sure that they are gay (straight/transexual/insert here)! Have they contacted Jack the Almighty personally and confessed about it all???
Honey, I wouldn't advise you believe anything you read on here without applying your own BS test to it first; that's what I do.

All I can tell you (and you're free to believe it or not) is that I have friends in Moskva who, let's say, are in a "position" to know. I trust what they tell me; but you certainly don't have any reason to trust what I say. No offense taken by me at your incredulity.

As for someone not "appearing" to be gay or a queen, I'll ask again, what does gay look like? If you think that all gay people only look and act like Albin in La Cage aux Fole, then you've led a very protected and sheltered life (actually, you've led the ideal life as imagined by Putin, the Russian Duma and Rusmeister!).

natlee
11-10-2013, 00:00
As for someone not "appearing" to be gay or a queen, I'll ask again, what does gay look like? If you think that all gay people only look and act like Albin in La Cage aux Fole, then you've led a very protected and sheltered life (actually, you've led the ideal life as imagined by Putin, the Russian Duma and Rusmeister!). And yet you expect us to KNOW who is or isn't gay... how very odd! ;)

Jack17
11-10-2013, 00:20
:whisper: Natlee, if you like, I'll be happy to offer an online course just for you and VicY to help you spot gays; it's not easy, let me tell you because, as you'll learn after the first semester, gay people come in all shapes, styles and sizes.

Here's the first lesson: Though not foolproof, you can usually spot a gay man if he is relatively young and good looking (for example, Maxim Galkin) who is married to a much older and worn woman (for example, Ala Pugachova) with whom no man that young and good looking would normally have anything to do with.

Since this is your first sample lesson, here's your first class assignment: memorize the urban dictionary definition for "Fag Hag" -

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fag%20hag

natlee
11-10-2013, 00:29
Though not foolproof, you can usually spot a gay man if he is relatively young and good looking (for example, Maxim Galkin) :eek: Maxim Galkin... good looking??? :eek: ;) :p

Jack17
11-10-2013, 00:38
Maybe we can agree, at least, he is younger and better looking than Zhvanetsky:

25178

natlee
11-10-2013, 01:23
Maybe we can agree, at least, he is younger and better looking than Zhvanetsky:

25178 Hmmmmm! Do I not get a wider choice? :eek: :D

rusmeister
11-10-2013, 04:25
I find it interesting that so many people resent my observation that what the children will want matters, judging by the number of thanks given to posts that object to that observation.

It seems to me to confirm what I said about what is more important to us.


what about Abraham and Sarah?

Does the whole difference between engineering something of your own will and being told by God escape you?

Russian Lad
11-10-2013, 04:40
Does the whole difference between engineering something of your own will and being told by God escape you?

Anyone wants a good quote for your signature wisdom? I have my space filled already, otherwise I would have surely taken it.

Jack17
11-10-2013, 04:51
Hmmmmm! Do I not get a wider choice? :eek: :D
Sure, you've got the whole world to choose from. But it's just as well you're not interesting in Galkin because I'm afraid you're not his gender preference -and! you're not a wealthy queen of Russian show business who counts VVP among your personal friends.

rusmeister
11-10-2013, 04:58
In case you've forgotten already, Rus, I am a SINGLE mother. And to be perfectly honest, am sick and tired of hearing from you just how ABNORMAL that situation is for (my) child(ren). Circumstances differ, and children grow up just fine under ones you (being God?) don't consider NORMAL. Sure, I'd have preferred for my daughter to have (more of) her father in her life, but thought it was healthier, under OUR circumstances, for her to end up with just me full-time and her dad visiting. As someone who comes from a 'broken' family myself, I can tell you that despite the difficulties, I by far preferred living without my dad whom I adored to living with both my parents seeing them fight on a daily basis. So, when it got to that point in my own family, I didn't see much of a choice. That was our JOINT decision.

It's just great that you managed to avoid divorce, but please quit talking like you're God himself. You weren't only smart but lucky as well. Not all of us are.

As far as the original subject, despite finding these characters mildly (er) annoying, I'm not going to even attempt to judge their actions because neither you, nor me know all of the circumstances, and somehow, I do not doubt these kids will have good lives. Having a mother is indeed important, but how important a mother living the life of Pugacheva (or anyone else in the circles) is I do not know. Her daughter Kristina (whom she had young) as far as I know, spent the majority of her time with the grandparents barely seeing her mom.

Natlee, I am unwilling to speak to specific situations, and never pick you out. That you are a single mother is a hard thing, in my view. I am glad you are making the best of it, but I don't think you can make it better than the best it can be. An abusive father is a bad thing. but it does not follow from that that no father is a good thing, or something your daughter wouldn't want. It might help if you get that I speak about what OUGHT to be, aka, the ideal. In a decaying society such as ours, I am sure that fatherless children are quite normal. But it is not ideal or desirable, even if it is normal. (So I never meant to say that such children are "abnormal", only that they do not desire a situation that ought not to be normal. They desire the normal ideal. I think that what even YOU desired and would wish for was that your parents would have managed to live together without fighting, and I would think you abnormal not to have desired that.

I agree completely that, in your terms, I am "lucky". I do not think that makes me "God", or that speaking truth makes me so. Having realized what OUGHT to be, I thank God that I got the opportunity to patch things up, though a once-damaged and patched-up relationship has consequences. It is better than NOT patching it up, but not as good as not damaging the marriage in the first place. That is why faithfulness is a virtue that builds and preserves and infidelity a destructive force.

I DO have doubts these kids will have "good" lives. They won't even have slight advantage of a living but merely absentee mother. I do think life better than death, and existence than non-existence, but I also think that material comfort does not equal happiness, and that even vast wealth cannot replace a mother. I think you are worth more to your daughter than all the riches of Abramovich (or whoever), and I think that relationship precious and irreplacable.

Personally, I really hope you do find a good and faithful man who would also be a good father. I have seen miracles happen to others, even in my own church. (I think of a mother of two, single for upwards of ten years who patched it up with her husband and now he regularly attends our church, as one such example. I'm sure there are consequences from the damage, but I am also sure that it is better.) I don't pretend to know the future, but think that hope is better than despair. Faith, hope and love are powerful tickets.

Please don't think I'm picking on you!

VicY
11-10-2013, 07:06
Honey, I wouldn't advise you believe anything you read on here without applying your own BS test to it first; that's what I do.

All I can tell you (and you're free to believe it or not) is that I have friends in Moskva who, let's say, are in a "position" to know. I trust what they tell me; but you certainly don't have any reason to trust what I say. No offense taken by me at your incredulity.

As for someone not "appearing" to be gay or a queen, I'll ask again, what does gay look like? If you think that all gay people only look and act like Albin in La Cage aux Fole, then you've led a very protected and sheltered life (actually, you've led the ideal life as imagined by Putin, the Russian Duma and Rusmeister!).

Yeah, yeah, sure. You've got "friends" who are "in a position to know". But of course, just as I said, previously, you must be in touch with all our show biz stars personally, or at least their personal secretaries :D Or, better still, Galkin's lovers??!
Galkin may or may not be gay, there is certainly no way you can "know" it.

As for the looks, thanks for your suggestion, but, really, as I have told you before, you've got to question okiey first.
We all have our minds conditioned in some ways, so, for example, looking at Boy George, MOST people would agree that chances are he is gay and a drag queen, don't you think.
There are other conditions to which our minds may react, but there is no way to tell for sure if one is gay, straight, a zoophile etc.

xSnoofovich
11-10-2013, 10:41
Does the whole difference between engineering something of your own will and being told by God escape you?

No Russ, don't change the topic.

They were much, much older and people said the exact same thing. Come to find out that even AFTER Sarah had died, Abraham had ANOTHER wife, and had SIX children with her.

In short, all life should be celebrated.

xSnoofovich
11-10-2013, 10:43
Yeah, yeah, sure. You've got "friends" who are "in a position to know".

why not ? moscow is a small place and it gets even smaller once you get into accepted into different social circles.

VicY
11-10-2013, 11:34
why not ? moscow is a small place and it gets even smaller once you get into accepted into different social circles.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Well, in that case, I could also say that I've got friends who are "in a position to know" ;)

And Moscow is certainly not a small place.

okiey
11-10-2013, 12:11
As for the looks, thanks for your suggestion, but, really, as I have told you before, you've got to question okiey first.


Its not just looks, its demeanor too: a John Wayne walk is a good indicator

AstarD
11-10-2013, 12:15
No Russ, don't change the topic.

They were much, much older and people said the exact same thing. Come to find out that even AFTER Sarah had died, Abraham had ANOTHER wife, and had SIX children with her.

In short, all life should be celebrated.He will always change the subject. Just like he did when someone brought up the fact that The Christ was born to a surrogate mother and raised by a man who Rus by his own definition could not call a parent.

xSnoofovich
11-10-2013, 12:48
I could also say that I've got friends


with your crappy attitude, i am surprised that you have any friends at all.

Potty
11-10-2013, 13:03
Just one question to informed people :D Has anyone seen any picture of Alla and Galkin kissing? Just curious if such thing exists.

Sana
11-10-2013, 13:58
with your crappy attitude, i am surprised that you have any friends at all.

Can't agree more..... That was the first thing which sprang into my mind after I first read the person's post.

VicY
11-10-2013, 15:40
with your crappy attitude, i am surprised that you have any friends at all.

My dear, you'd do well to look after your attitude, which is, shall we say, far from perfect.
It may come as a surprise to you, but yes, I do have many friends.

natlee
11-10-2013, 16:42
Natlee, I am unwilling to speak to specific situations, and never pick you out. That you are a single mother is a hard thing, in my view. I am glad you are making the best of it, but I don't think you can make it better than the best it can be. An abusive father is a bad thing. but it does not follow from that that no father is a good thing, or something your daughter wouldn't want. It might help if you get that I speak about what OUGHT to be, aka, the ideal. In a decaying society such as ours, I am sure that fatherless children are quite normal. But it is not ideal or desirable, even if it is normal. (So I never meant to say that such children are "abnormal", only that they do not desire a situation that ought not to be normal. They desire the normal ideal. I think that what even YOU desired and would wish for was that your parents would have managed to live together without fighting, and I would think you abnormal not to have desired that.

I agree completely that, in your terms, I am "lucky". I do not think that makes me "God", or that speaking truth makes me so. Having realized what OUGHT to be, I thank God that I got the opportunity to patch things up, though a once-damaged and patched-up relationship has consequences. It is better than NOT patching it up, but not as good as not damaging the marriage in the first place. That is why faithfulness is a virtue that builds and preserves and infidelity a destructive force.

I DO have doubts these kids will have "good" lives. They won't even have slight advantage of a living but merely absentee mother. I do think life better than death, and existence than non-existence, but I also think that material comfort does not equal happiness, and that even vast wealth cannot replace a mother. I think you are worth more to your daughter than all the riches of Abramovich (or whoever), and I think that relationship precious and irreplacable.

Personally, I really hope you do find a good and faithful man who would also be a good father. I have seen miracles happen to others, even in my own church. (I think of a mother of two, single for upwards of ten years who patched it up with her husband and now he regularly attends our church, as one such example. I'm sure there are consequences from the damage, but I am also sure that it is better.) I don't pretend to know the future, but think that hope is better than despair. Faith, hope and love are powerful tickets.

Please don't think I'm picking on you! I never said you were picking on me, I was only saying, please try to remember, as you're using words like "tragedy" to describe a family that isn't "whole" ;) that plenty of us, even here on this forum, are raising our children on our own, and doing an impressive a*s job at it :)

As far as the "miracles" you're talking about, I'm certainly not going to be "patching it up" with my daughter's father - besides the fact that we're long past the point of wanting to at this stage, he has since had two more children it would be unfair to, wouldn't you agree? ;) As far as meeting a good man who'd be a good father - I would like that, certainly, but what I won't like - or do - is rely on a wish that may never come true for my - or my daughter's - happiness.

robertmf
11-10-2013, 17:51
Just one question to informed people :D Has anyone seen any picture of Alla and Galkin kissing? Just curious if such thing exists.

Your new avatar :question:

:kiss_mini:

Potty
11-10-2013, 17:56
They are not touching each other!!! :D

okiey
11-10-2013, 18:01
He's not exactly showing much enthusiam either :-)

penka
11-10-2013, 19:20
They are not touching each other!!! :D

Don't complain!

Jack17
11-10-2013, 19:37
Yeah, yeah, sure. You've got "friends" who are "in a position to know".

No, that's not what I wrote; you're misquoting me. I wrote that I have friends in Moskva who are in a "position" to know. You put the quotation marks in the wrong place.

Russian Lad
11-10-2013, 20:28
No, that's not what I wrote; you're misquoting me. I wrote that I have friends in Moskva who are in a "position" to know. You put the quotation marks in the wrong place.

What does it change? Is it the missionary position or something more elaborate?:) Are you trying to tell us you know personally the US spies in Moscow who have infiltrated the Russian gay community? Will they instigate a gay uprising here?:) Like we say in Russia, you seem to have long hands.:)

TolkoRaz
11-10-2013, 20:45
What does it change? Is it the missionary position or something more elaborate?:) Are you trying to tell us you know personally the US spies in Moscow who have infiltrated the Russian gay community? Will they instigate a gay uprising here?:) Like we say in Russia, you seem to have long hands.:)

.............. and smelly fingers! :10310:

natlee
11-10-2013, 21:45
.............. and smelly fingers! :10310: :D :shame:

Sana
11-10-2013, 21:58
He may simply know people in Moscow who are close friends of the couple. But in such a case, I wouldn't be "in a position" to reveal who they are.

Russian Lad
11-10-2013, 22:03
Who is Galkin's father, anyway? Maybe Jack is hiding something really important for all of us here...:) I would not be surprised to learn that Galkin grew in a military type of entourage...

rusmeister
11-10-2013, 22:10
No Russ, don't change the topic.

They were much, much older and people said the exact same thing. Come to find out that even AFTER Sarah had died, Abraham had ANOTHER wife, and had SIX children with her.

In short, all life should be celebrated.

Not changing topics at all.
Since you're going with the Biblical story, I'll point out that longevity was on an entirely different scale in those days. But I think the fact that you have to reach back tht far for a wild exception only proves the rule.

In general, I see the general approval of these unnatural choices as an attack on the family, on the idea of a man and a woman united for life by a sacred vow, forsaking all others, and on the value of tradition and the extended family, such as the participation, in the normal course of a child's life, of two parents (and grandparents) that will live reasonably long enough to raise the child into adulthood and themselves participate as grandparents in the lives ofthe children of their children. This is what all of humanity throughout history has determined to be the wise and advisable norm.

And I do NOT accept the idea of producing babies-to-order by test tube as "celebrating life".

It seems that you guys will go to ANY lengths to justify sexual freedom to do whatever you want whenever you want at the price of a normal family for children, what the children rightly want. Screw the children. We'll give them gold teddy bears instead of normal mothers and grandmothers. As long as WE can have our sugar daddies (or mommies) at will.

robertmf
11-10-2013, 22:15
They are not touching each other!!! :D

Foreplay. Photoshop the image ;)

rusmeister
11-10-2013, 22:17
I never said you were picking on me, I was only saying, please try to remember, as you're using words like "tragedy" to describe a family that isn't "whole" ;) that plenty of us, even here on this forum, are raising our children on our own, and doing an impressive a*s job at it :)

As far as the "miracles" you're talking about, I'm certainly not going to be "patching it up" with my daughter's father - besides the fact that we're long past the point of wanting to at this stage, he has since had two more children it would be unfair to, wouldn't you agree? ;) As far as meeting a good man who'd be a good father - I would like that, certainly, but what I won't like - or do - is rely on a wish that may never come true for my - or my daughter's - happiness.

I think it is always a tragedy when a child is deprived of even one of his or her natural parents, even when I'm ready to admit how hard the other parent (such as you) may work to try to normalize the situation.

I do NOT say "rely on wishes". I DO say that I would wish the best possible scenario for you, and think it is healthy and common-sensical for you to wish it as well. I only say it is wrong to say that the single parent is the ideal, the situation that every - or any - child should wish for. And that is pretty much where the child of a geriatric birth will be by the time they hit their teens, when they REALLY need their mothers.

TolkoRaz
11-10-2013, 22:18
Foreplay. Photoshop the image ;)


Are they in a flight simulator? :D

TGP
11-10-2013, 22:19
25183

Russian Lad
11-10-2013, 22:31
Rusmeister seems to be talking to himself. Boy, growing senile must be a challege.

Jack17
11-10-2013, 22:40
Are you trying to tell us you know personally the US spies in Moscow who have infiltrated the Russian gay community?

Thanks for exposing me RL. :shhhhhh:


Will they instigate a gay uprising here?:)

All things are possible. It's a nasty business. :gay:

natlee
11-10-2013, 23:20
I think it is always a tragedy when a child is deprived of even one of his or her natural parents, even when I'm ready to admit how hard the other parent (such as you) may work to try to normalize the situation. There are different types of single parents/situations. Some still have their ex's play a big enough role in the child's life, while others are THE ONLY parent. You cannot have control over ANYTHING that involves two or more people. If a father (or a mother) CHOOSES to not play a part in the child's upbringing there's little the other parent can do, in most cases. A tragedy is when one (or both) of the parents who did play a big part in the child's life dies. The rest is a choice. Upsetting - for sure, painful - most likely, to both the parents who sticks by the child and the child him/herself, but not a tragedy. That's not to say one shouldn't try and marry for life or work on the problems within the marriage when those arise. But, if we all felt the way you do about a family that isn't "whole", the only smart choice would be not to have children altogether. After all, who the heck knows if/when the partner will wanna do a runner (as an example)? No one wants to set themselves up for a tragedy ;)

xSnoofovich
12-10-2013, 00:45
Not changing topics at all.
Since you're going with the Biblical story, I'll point out that.... I think the fact that you have to reach back tht far for a wild exception only proves the rule.

.........bla bla bla......

And I do NOT accept the idea of producing babies-to-order by test tube as "celebrating life".

It seems that you guys .........

rus, i like you posts. i read them and think about what you are trying to say. you have an interesting and refreshing point of view. but, you are a specific kind of person. the fact that i spoke about Abraham and Sarah was an attempt to speak to you, in words and with people you would understand.

As to babies by test tube, it wouldn't be my first choice. but who are you to dictate who and how life is created? Jeremiah 1:5 says-

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

This tells me that God has a plan, maybe we can't see it or we don't want to see it, but the plan (His plan) is there nevertheless.

As to you guys.... I am singular. Don't speak to me as if I am plural.

natlee
12-10-2013, 00:51
As to babies by test tube, it wouldn't be my first choice. but who are you to dictate who and how life is created? Bingo.

xSnoofovich
12-10-2013, 01:03
My dear, ...........


listen, i would take this a little more seriously if you didn't already admit that you don't know what is going on in Russia, except when someone happens to email you.

xSnoofovich
12-10-2013, 01:13
What does it change? Is it the missionary position or something more elaborate?:) Are you trying to tell us you know personally the US spies in Moscow who have infiltrated the Russian gay community? Will they instigate a gay uprising here?:) Like we say in Russia, you seem to have long hands.:)

man, here's the thing. moscow is a small place. there is only x amount of clubs and x amount of people. now, if you figure that there are even less amount of clubs for people that have $ and that only certain social circles go there, then yea, its not too hard to meet people. and people know people, it just works out like that......

as to you american spies, dude, that pure nationalistic crap, and while i admire it, you should understand how much of a pleb you sound.

Russian Lad
12-10-2013, 01:28
as to you american spies, dude, that pure nationalistic crap, and while i admire it, you should understand how much of a pleb you sound.

Moscow is a small place, people know people. I already got that from your other messages.:) Well, my post that you quoted was written purely out of entertainment considerations, I am not sure why you felt the absolute need to take it seriously.:)

xSnoofovich
12-10-2013, 01:57
Moscow is a small place, people know people.......

It is............

RL

* HUGS *

It's all good baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabeeeeeyyyyyyyy !

rusmeister
12-10-2013, 09:23
rus, i like you posts. i read them and think about what you are trying to say. you have an interesting and refreshing point of view. but, you are a specific kind of person. the fact that i spoke about Abraham and Sarah was an attempt to speak to you, in words and with people you would understand.

As to babies by test tube, it wouldn't be my first choice. but who are you to dictate who and how life is created? Jeremiah 1:5 says-

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

This tells me that God has a plan, maybe we can't see it or we don't want to see it, but the plan (His plan) is there nevertheless.

As to you guys.... I am singular. Don't speak to me as if I am plural.

Hi, Snoof,
I appreciate your kind words towards me, but don't think your ideas here well-thought out.

First, I wasn't speaking to you, singular, in the plural. There are actually other people here, either actively disagreeing with me, or passively thanking posts that disagree with me. Take a look, and you'll see that I'm not specially picking on you there. (You might also note that my posts are not being thanked. The truth is unpopular, but then, it always has been.)

It is because I understand the story of Abraham and Sarah that I say what I do, and I get a sense that you don't. You speak as if, in this scenario, it was I that was "dictating how and by whom is life to be created", missing, ironically, that the heroes of the story (P&G) have actually decided that they WILL dictate it, and actually did it.
And that is a vital difference between the artificial creation of life, at which we DO play at being gods, and the natural conception of life through intercourse and accepting the outcome, which is, for infertile couples for example, a negative outcome. Abraham and Sarah emphatically did not do what P&G dis. In fact, when Abraham tried to get around God, he produced Ishmael, and set off a serious of unforeseen and unintended consequences as a result.

We Orthodox believe that there are two senses of God's will - what He desires, and what He allows, and the two are wildly different. So saying that what P+G did is somehow "God's plan" in any sense of something that He willed or desired is absurd. They clearly used science to take matters out of God's hands and put them into their own. Abraham and Sarah are irrelevant as an example in this case, as they got a child precisely when they stopped trying to engineer one.

rusmeister
12-10-2013, 09:45
There are different types of single parents/situations. Some still have their ex's play a big enough role in the child's life, while others are THE ONLY parent. You cannot have control over ANYTHING that involves two or more people. If a father (or a mother) CHOOSES to not play a part in the child's upbringing there's little the other parent can do, in most cases.
I certainly agree.


A tragedy is when one (or both) of the parents who did play a big part in the child's life dies. The rest is a choice. Upsetting - for sure, painful - most likely, to both the parents who sticks by the child and the child him/herself, but not a tragedy.
this is where we part ways. I agree that the death of a parent is a tragedy for the child. But I disagree completely that the removal of a parent from family life in other ways is NOT also a tragedy. The enormous amount of material produced by children of divorce on the damage caused by divorce demonstrates the contrary, even without me saying a word. Is ongoing, lifelong pain of separation from a parent NOT tragic? Does not that pain strike home at every event in e child's life where the father (or mother) is conspicuously absent? Evidently, you think it no big deal. That, to me, looks like denial of a fact obvious to any honest outside observer. I understand why you would wish to minimize it - but say that you are wrong and wholly underestimate how your child sees - or will see it. Like I said, I speak in general, even though I think these truths applicable to your case. I get that there are individual differences, but they do not change what is common to all of us. As a child of divorce myself, I do not speak as one not affected by it.


That's not to say one shouldn't try and marry for life or work on the problems within the marriage when those arise.
Agreed - with both hands up, in fact.


But, if we all felt the way you do about a family that isn't "whole", the only smart choice would be not to have children altogether. After all, who the heck knows if/when the partner will wanna do a runner (as an example)? No one wants to set themselves up for a tragedy ;)


Disagree. I think it possible to attain and hold a worldview that makes such running - certainly on your part, and probably on a potential spouse's part - improbable. But that's going to drag in the issue of truth about human nature and a solution that involves a readiness to carry a personal cross - which, in our culture of pleasure and personal comfort, is not popular. The solution, of course, is the Christian solution. But people don't want to hear that. We want to be our own gods. And the idea of self-sacrifice in marriage is the antithesis of the view that seeks marriage for personal happiness. If you are trying to "get what you can" out of marriage, the well will surely run dry sooner or later. It's in doing the hard and painful work of "filling the well", and being ready to do it for the rest of your life, that you can find something lasting. If you accept that, then you yourself will not be ome "a runner", as you have found and adopted the right attitude. If you find a man who also holds that view, then he will probably also refuse the option of being "a runner" as something heinous, cowardly, and not worthy of a man. And then, tragedy is excluded. (Not saying that that's easy, mind you, only that it is worth it.)

But saying that, for the child, the other parent, be it mother or father, is optional, that their absence is not a tragedy is not true.

VicY
12-10-2013, 19:31
listen, i would take this a little more seriously if you didn't already admit that you don't know what is going on in Russia, except when someone happens to email you.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Yeah...whatever you choose to believe!

natlee
12-10-2013, 23:06
I certainly agree.


this is where we part ways. I agree that the death of a parent is a tragedy for the child. But I disagree completely that the removal of a parent from family life in other ways is NOT also a tragedy. The enormous amount of material produced by children of divorce on the damage caused by divorce demonstrates the contrary, even without me saying a word. Is ongoing, lifelong pain of separation from a parent NOT tragic? Does not that pain strike home at every event in e child's life where the father (or mother) is conspicuously absent? Evidently, you think it no big deal. That, to me, looks like denial of a fact obvious to any honest outside observer. I understand why you would wish to minimize it - but say that you are wrong and wholly underestimate how your child sees - or will see it. Like I said, I speak in general, even though I think these truths applicable to your case. I get that there are individual differences, but they do not change what is common to all of us. As a child of divorce myself, I do not speak as one not affected by it.


Agreed - with both hands up, in fact.



Disagree. I think it possible to attain and hold a worldview that makes such running - certainly on your part, and probably on a potential spouse's part - improbable. But that's going to drag in the issue of truth about human nature and a solution that involves a readiness to carry a personal cross - which, in our culture of pleasure and personal comfort, is not popular. The solution, of course, is the Christian solution. But people don't want to hear that. We want to be our own gods. And the idea of self-sacrifice in marriage is the antithesis of the view that seeks marriage for personal happiness. If you are trying to "get what you can" out of marriage, the well will surely run dry sooner or later. It's in doing the hard and painful work of "filling the well", and being ready to do it for the rest of your life, that you can find something lasting. If you accept that, then you yourself will not be ome "a runner", as you have found and adopted the right attitude. If you find a man who also holds that view, then he will probably also refuse the option of being "a runner" as something heinous, cowardly, and not worthy of a man. And then, tragedy is excluded. (Not saying that that's easy, mind you, only that it is worth it.)

But saying that, for the child, the other parent, be it mother or father, is optional, that their absence is not a tragedy is not true. In short, you're unhappy about the fact that I'm happy (and so is my daughter). You're determined to let me see (and get her to admit? :eek:) just how awful our situation is to what... go jumping out of the window? I would understand if I were going through a rough patch with the hubby and you were feeding me this kind of er "truth" ;) but why do it now? So I what, avoid that horrible "tragedy" again? Sorry but it might be too late for that even! :eek: :shame:

Let's get one thing straight. My daughter has a father. He is alive and well and calls her regularly. She doesn't see much of him because he lives in another country and that is his CHOICE! I don't want to get into detail on here but let's just say I was prepared to bend over backwards for them to be able to see each other daily. His answer was no. I don't understand it, but I've accepted it. So has my daughter. They make do with phone calls and visits that happen once or twice a year. Is that ideal? Nope. Do I think it's no big deal? Hell no! It IS a big deal, but what am I to do about it?! And are they both fine with it at the moment? Yup.

I have never said either parent is not important, I've only said that, well, life is full of surprises, some of them unpleasant. Obviously I didn't set out to end up a single parent, in fact, if anyone had told me years ago that we'd ever get divorced, I would've laughed in their faces!

Funnily enough, I lived long enough with exactly the cr.. "truth" you're going on about, totally unhappy about raising my daughter on my own and waiting for my Prince Charming. Well guess what, I'm over that now, and will not let you or anyone else drive me back into the depression that was so hard to come out of. You're wasting your time here, Rus ;)

Jack17
12-10-2013, 23:49
It's difficult to wade through Rus' sermons; I have little patience for it. But as best I can read, all Rus is saying is that a loving family with a child's biological mother and father is unquestionably what is best for any child. I don't only believe, but I know that is true. Further, I believe Rus is saying that married couples and parents should strive with all their might to make that a reality for their children. I would go so far as to say parents should do so even at the expense of their own happiness because our children are more important than we are ourselves. Also, I firmly believe that "happiness" is a state of mind.

But, despite our best efforts, that "ideal" is not always possible. I have raised children without their natural mother due to death and divorce. Did they turn out to be fabulous adults? Yes, unquestionably. Would it have been better had they had their own mother and father full time? Yes, unquestionably.

natlee
13-10-2013, 00:02
It's difficult to wade through Rus' sermons; I have little patience for it. But as best I can read, all Rus is saying is that a loving family with a child's biological mother and father is unquestionably what is best for any child. I don't only believe, but I know that is true. Further, I believe Rus is saying that married couples and parents should strive with all their might to make that a reality for their children. I would go so far as to say parents should do so even at the expense of their own happiness because our children are more important than we are ourselves. Also, I firmly believe that "happiness" is a state of mind.

But, despite our best efforts, that "ideal" is not always possible. I have raised children without their natural mother due to death and divorce. Did they turn out to be fabulous adults? Yes, unquestionably. Would it have been better had they had their own mother and father full time? Yes, unquestionably. If you'd had the patience to read through his sermons (I totally understand that it's virtually impossible!), you would see him repeatedly use the word "tragedy" when speaking of situations such as my own. Imperfect - obviously, painful - unquestionably, but a tragedy? I have never nor will ever say that being a single parent is the way to go, I'm just getting tired of Rus constantly telling me just how horrible I must feel about being one, and how unhappy my daughter is going to be. Spot the difference?

Jack17
13-10-2013, 06:28
Well, "tragedy" is just a word. Like the theater, life is full of tragedy and comedy.

It reminds me of a line from an Austrian novel: "Die Sache is hoffnungsloss, aber nicht ernst." The situation is hopeless; but not serious. Or something like that.

Anyway, as any parent knows, kids are incredibly resilient and children really don't understand "tragedy." But Rus never speaks in the vernacular; he speaks in religious dialectic. In other words, he's always delivering a sermon, which, seems very uncharacteristic of Russian Orthodox people and therefore I imagine especially annoying to Russians; it's more typical of the way American Baptists love to debate with other Protestants and Catholics.

rusmeister
13-10-2013, 08:02
It's difficult to wade through Rus' sermons; I have little patience for it. But as best I can read, all Rus is saying is that a loving family with a child's biological mother and father is unquestionably what is best for any child. I don't only believe, but I know that is true. Further, I believe Rus is saying that married couples and parents should strive with all their might to make that a reality for their children. I would go so far as to say parents should do so even at the expense of their own happiness because our children are more important than we are ourselves. Also, I firmly believe that "happiness" is a state of mind.

But, despite our best efforts, that "ideal" is not always possible. I have raised children without their natural mother due to death and divorce. Did they turn out to be fabulous adults? Yes, unquestionably. Would it have been better had they had their own mother and father full time? Yes, unquestionably.

Well, I'm sorry you find it difficult to "wade" through my "sermons" - which I see is trying to think a thing out thoroughly, and deal with the multifaceted objections to my own view.

Your own words here are a fine summary. They simply make a statement of an opinion (and an excellent and true one, at that) without dealing with the objections. My "sermons", as you like to characterize my observations and thought, and to make religious what I express in explicitly secular terms, go to the trouble of thinking (aloud) through what people say, rather than merely stating shortly my own opinions without any defense of them.

Being brief is fine for summaries, but it doesn't deal with the complexities of life.

But thanks anyway for the summary, which I hope Natlee understands. All children want their father, and I think in our time we drastically underestimate both the value of fathers and of children's need for them.

rusmeister
13-10-2013, 08:09
In short, you're unhappy about the fact that I'm happy (and so is my daughter). You're determined to let me see (and get her to admit? :eek:) just how awful our situation is to what... go jumping out of the window? I would understand if I were going through a rough patch with the hubby and you were feeding me this kind of er "truth" ;) but why do it now? So I what, avoid that horrible "tragedy" again? Sorry but it might be too late for that even! :eek: :shame:

Let's get one thing straight. My daughter has a father. He is alive and well and calls her regularly. She doesn't see much of him because he lives in another country and that is his CHOICE! I don't want to get into detail on here but let's just say I was prepared to bend over backwards for them to be able to see each other daily. His answer was no. I don't understand it, but I've accepted it. So has my daughter. They make do with phone calls and visits that happen once or twice a year. Is that ideal? Nope. Do I think it's no big deal? Hell no! It IS a big deal, but what am I to do about it?! And are they both fine with it at the moment? Yup.

I have never said either parent is not important, I've only said that, well, life is full of surprises, some of them unpleasant. Obviously I didn't set out to end up a single parent, in fact, if anyone had told me years ago that we'd ever get divorced, I would've laughed in their faces!

Funnily enough, I lived long enough with exactly the cr.. "truth" you're going on about, totally unhappy about raising my daughter on my own and waiting for my Prince Charming. Well guess what, I'm over that now, and will not let you or anyone else drive me back into the depression that was so hard to come out of. You're wasting your time here, Rus ;)

I'll just say briefly (the way you seem to want) that you think I blame you for your situation. Not at all! I make no judgements about what is whose fault, and I totally get that fathers can turn out to be scumbags. And I absolutely do not want to "drive you into depression"! I'm saying the truth is NOT cheery, but neither is it hopeless.

I'm saying that your daughter will always regret the absence of her father, and hopefully someday he will come to regret it, too. (From my own standpoint, that would make other -good - things possible that I can only describe in Christian terms, which you guys hate.)

Russian Lad
13-10-2013, 10:19
that I can only describe in Christian terms, which you guys hate.)

We, well, I mean those whom you address, don't really hate it, we just don't happen to believe in the particular fairytale you chose to believe in, and went so far in your belief as to claim it is the only truthful fairytale out of dozens equally famous and widely spread fairytales out there... Moreover, you believe we will be severely punished sooner or later for not believing in your fairytale. Which brings me to three possible conclusions: 1) your fairytale is very mean and is more like a horror story; 2) you are very mean and horrible; 3) both. What do you think?:)

rusmeister
13-10-2013, 15:40
We, well, I mean those whom you address, don't really hate it, we just don't happen to believe in the particular fairytale you chose to believe in, and went so far in your belief as to claim it is the only truthful fairytale out of dozens equally famous and widely spread fairytales out there... Moreover, you believe we will be severely punished sooner or later for not believing in your fairytale. Which brings me to three possible conclusions: 1) your fairytale is very mean and is more like a horror story; 2) you are very mean and horrible; 3) both. What do you think?:)

I don't think you really want to know what I think, RL. Your questions are never honest, and your assumptions uninquisitive.
I believe that if you don't know that chain smoking can cause lung cancer, you will be severely punished. That there are real consequences of behavior and choices that you just might not be aware of. That a person can so thoroughly orient their being towards themselves that they create their own hell, something God is trying to save them from.

natlee
13-10-2013, 16:50
Well, "tragedy" is just a word. So is "asshole". Yet you'd find that people react to it.

natlee
13-10-2013, 17:07
I'll just say briefly (the way you seem to want) that you think I blame you for your situation. Not at all! I make no judgements about what is whose fault, and I totally get that fathers can turn out to be scumbags. And I absolutely do not want to "drive you into depression"! I'm saying the truth is NOT cheery, but neither is it hopeless.

I'm saying that your daughter will always regret the absence of her father, and hopefully someday he will come to regret it, too. (From my own standpoint, that would make other -good - things possible that I can only describe in Christian terms, which you guys hate.) I do not think nor do I care whether or not you blame me. I know full well what I've done wrong and what I've done right. You should know by now that people only ever learn from their own mistakes, and even that most do poorly.

I do not care whether or not he - or anyone else in a similar or more complicated situation - will regret it "someday". Unlike you, I tend to think that "someday in 15 years" is too late.

rusmeister
14-10-2013, 11:46
I do not think nor do I care whether or not you blame me. I know full well what I've done wrong and what I've done right. You should know by now that people only ever learn from their own mistakes, and even that most do poorly.

I do not care whether or not he - or anyone else in a similar or more complicated situation - will regret it "someday". Unlike you, I tend to think that "someday in 15 years" is too late.

I agree. It IS too late. That is why we speak of regret.

I do think we can learn from others' mistakes, though.

rusmeister
14-10-2013, 11:50
So is "asshole". Yet you'd find that people react to it.

This is true.
My use of the word "tragedy" wasn't "just a word", empty sound. I meant it to mean something. The whole Fall of humanity is a tragedy, and so is death and our brokenness from God.

All we can do is "metanoia" (Greek: "repentance"); determine to henceforth live right, and do these things no more.

And while we are all perpetrators, when we are victims, we must learn to forgive.

natlee
14-10-2013, 18:52
I agree. It IS too late. That is why we speak of regret. I don't really understand regret when we're talking about parents who abandon their children. I mean, let's face it, when a grown man or woman, no gun held to their heads, makes that choice not to be part of his/her own child's life they must know, more or less anyway, what they - and their child - would be missing. What regret might there be later on? Yet parents often talk of regret. On the other hand, I cannot understand how one can make that choice in the first place. To me, that either means the person isn't thinking straight, is mad or, as you've correctly pointed out, a scumbag. I know I certainly couldn't make a conscious choice to have nothing to do with my own flesh and blood. I'm amazed there are people out there, and enough of them, too, who not only do it, but seem to enjoy life just fine afterwards. Do you honestly believe those people may come to truly regret that choice? Would that mean they hadn't been thinking straight in the first place? How come none seem to regret it soon after (making the wrong choice), but at the point when it hardly matters anymore?

MacDavid
14-10-2013, 19:31
You are only as old as the woman you feel! For men at least.