PDA

View Full Version : [B][U]A quiz for students learning English[/U][/B]



Bels
15-12-2007, 21:36
A quiz for students learning English

Here is the quiz. What is wrong with the following sentences? If there is anything wrong .
Correct them if they are wrong.

English native speakers and EFL teachers may participate, but the must clearly explain why the sentence is wrong.. Not as easy as you think, Yes it’s easy for natives to correct the sentences, but not so easy to explain why.

Teachers do you have any other ideas. Your ideas of contributing puzzles on this thread are welcome.


Please correct the following sentences :

Only those aware of the subject could join in the discussion.
She was carrying a long and green umbrella.
In Sweden many wives and husbands stay at home alternatively to look after their children.
We decided to make alternate arrangements in case the hotel was fully booked.
I certainly will try harder the next time.
During the flight she sat on the chair behind me.
The cinema was in the middle of a large shopping center
The present goverment is certain of losing the next election
He was a bit embarrassed of what he had said
Our main energetic source is nuclear power
Nowadays many criminals end in jail
I spent the afternoon listening to records with my girl friend
Having received news of his death, they stopped looking after him.

SalTheReturn
15-12-2007, 21:58
A quiz for students learning English

Here is the quiz. What is wrong with the following sentences? If there is anything wrong .
Correct them if they are wrong.

English native speakers and EFL teachers may participate, but the must clearly explain why the sentence is wrong.. Not as easy as you think, Yes itís easy for natives to correct the sentences, but not so easy to explain why.

Teachers do you have any other ideas. Your ideas of contributing puzzles on this thread are welcome.


Please correct the following sentences :

Only those aware of the subject could join in the discussion.
She was carrying a long and green umbrella.
In Sweden many wives and husbands stay at home alternatively to look after their children.
We decided to make alternate arrangements in case the hotel was fully booked.
I certainly will try harder the next time.
During the flight she sat on the chair behind me.
The cinema was in the middle of a large shopping center
The present goverment is certain of losing the next election
He was a bit embarrassed of what he had said
Our main energetic source is nuclear power
Nowadays many criminals end in jail
I spent the afternoon listening to records with my girl friend
Having received news of his death, they stopped looking after him.

possible but you should tell us if we gotta focus on words use or grammar...some of them seem pretty weird

Clean32
15-12-2007, 22:11
i like this one

Having received news of his death, they stopped looking after him.

Like thay didnt notice??

Bels
15-12-2007, 22:15
possible but you should tell us if we gotta focus on words use or grammar...some of them seem pretty weird

Sorry, some are grammar, some are the use of words. I tried these questions with my wife and she could answer the questions correctly and could answer the reasons why. Now answering the reasons why she, as a russian can do better than me. Must be something to do do with that linguist degree she has.

I was also very proud that my Russian son corrected most of the sentences, speaking to him verbally. Of course he can't explain why. He did well.

Bels
15-12-2007, 22:28
i like this one

Having received news of his death, they stopped looking after him.

Like thay didnt notice??

The answer is :) Having received news of his death, they stopped looking for him.

Look after = take care of someone, who will take care of you if you are ill.
look for = try to find. " I spent a whole hour looking for my friends.

IraM
15-12-2007, 23:00
i like this one

Having received news of his death, they stopped looking after him.

Like thay didnt notice??


The answer is Having received news of his death, they stopped looking for him.

Look after = take care of someone, who will take care of you if you are ill.
look for = try to find. " I spent a whole hour looking for my friends.
Or: Having received news of his death, they stopped looking forward to hearing from him.:)

Clean32
15-12-2007, 23:06
The answer is :) Having received news of his death, they stopped looking for him.

Look after = take care of someone, who will take care of you if you are ill.
look for = try to find. " I spent a whole hour looking for my friends.

LOL i was trying to make a joke ??

Bels
15-12-2007, 23:24
Or: Having received news of his death, they stopped looking forward to hearing from him.:)

I like it, very funny :) But not correct. But very funny and you deserve a greeny :) And you've got one.

Bels
15-12-2007, 23:27
LOL i was trying to make a joke ??

I know, but Iliked ira'ms much better. Give her a greenie. :)

SalTheReturn
15-12-2007, 23:36
We decided to make alternate arrangements in case the hotel was fully booked.

we decided to make alternative arrangements in case the hotel was fully booked.

right, in'it?

hazelnut
16-12-2007, 00:04
A quiz for students learning English


Please correct the following sentences :

Only those aware of the subject could join in the discussion.
She was carrying a long and green umbrella.
In Sweden many wives and husbands stay at home alternatively to look after their children.
We decided to make alternate arrangements in case the hotel was fully booked.
I certainly will try harder the next time.
During the flight she sat on the chair behind me.

The cinema was in the middle of a large shopping center
The present goverment is certain of losing the next election
He was a bit embarrassed of what he had said
Our main energetic source is nuclear power
Nowadays many criminals end in jail
I spent the afternoon listening to records with my girl friend
Having received news of his death, they stopped looking after him.

Dear Bels! Thank you! It's really interesting! Sure I'm trying!

were able to join
long green umbrella (no need for conjunction)
husbands and wives (order of words?) and also I would rather say "by turns"
the hotel is fully booked (no shift of tenses?)
next time (no article needed?)
was sitting (continious instead of indefinite)
is certain to lose
embarrassed AT maybe?
energy sousce
end up?
spent with my girlfriend listening...

as for the cinema in the middle, well... don't know, everything seems to be ok. Maybe better to say "was situated"?
I'm just dying to know whether I'm right or not!

Clean32
16-12-2007, 00:06
We decided to make alternate arrangements in case the hotel was fully booked.

we decided to make alternative arrangements in case the hotel was fully booked.

right, in'it?

Needs a ,

We decided to make alternative arrangements, in case the hotel was fully booked.

Bels
16-12-2007, 01:16
[QUOTE=SalTheReturn;321733]We decided to make alternate arrangements in case the hotel was fully booked.

we decided to make alternative arrangements in case the hotel was fully booked.

right, in'it?[/QUOTE


Yes it's right, welldone sal you made it correct in British English.

But in American English the sentence is actually correct. We have different meanings for alternate and alternative in British English.

It's very important we know the difference. It's very importamt of who we are quoting or representing. British English and American English can be very different.

Look at the blunders of the Moscow Times.

Bels
16-12-2007, 01:25
Dear Bels! Thank you! It's really interesting! Sure I'm trying!

were able to join
long green umbrella (no need for conjunction)
husbands and wives (order of words?) and also I would rather say "by turns"
the hotel is fully booked (no shift of tenses?)
next time (no article needed?)
was sitting (continious instead of indefinite)
is certain to lose
embarrassed AT maybe?
energy sousce
end up?
spent with my girlfriend listening...

as for the cinema in the middle, well... don't know, everything seems to be ok. Maybe better to say "was situated"?
I'm just dying to know whether I'm right or not!

Some good answers, but I'll wait a bit. Thankyou, and I like like your statement of no need for conjuction on the umbrella sentence, very good.

I'll be back, but time for bed.

alterego
16-12-2007, 06:40
The problem with written exercises that are out of context is that it can be difficult to know what the intended meaning was. I have exercises that I have been using for years and still sometimes a new student will justify a new meaning with an unusual but possible case.
Your first case
"Only those aware of the subject could join in the conversation."
possible fixes,
Only those (that are) aware of the subject can join in the conversation
referring to the present or the future
Only those that were aware of the subject could have joined in the conversation.
referring to a past that did not happen or is unknown.
Only those that were aware of the subject were able to join in the conversation.
again referring to the past and very probably they did join in.

In addition to all that 'aware' doesn't seem to go well with 'subject'. It could be correct but just an odd use. Perhaps this is the mistake that you were presenting and you got sloppy in your other grammar. Since it is out of context I can't be sure but I would suspect that 'familar with the subject' would be a better choice.

Whenever one of my students doesn't give me the answer I am expecting I ask them to explain what they think was happening.

alterego
16-12-2007, 06:54
uh-oh
'students doesn't'
I'm going to catch hell for that.

Bels
16-12-2007, 15:23
You may well have a point Alterego, and the quiz is about the misuse of certain words. I have now boldened those words.


Please correct the following sentences :

Only those aware of the subject could join in the discussion.
She was carrying a long and green umbrella.
In Sweden many wives and husbands stay at home alternatively to look after their children.
We decided to make alternate arrangements in case the hotel was fully booked.
I certainly will try harder the next time.
During the flight she sat on the chair behind me.
The cinema was in the middle of a large shopping center
The present goverment is certain of losing the next election
He was a bit embarrassed of what he had said
Our main energetic source is nuclear power
Nowadays many criminals end in jail
I spent the afternoon listening to records with my girl friend
Having received news of his death, they stopped looking after him.

I hope this now makes it easier.

SalTheReturn
16-12-2007, 15:46
You may well have a point Alterego, and the quiz is about the misuse of certain words. I have now boldened those words.


Please correct the following sentences :

Only those awareFOND of the subject could join in the discussion.
She was carrying a long green umbrella.
In Sweden many wives and husbands stay at home alternatively to look after their children.
We decided to make alternative arrangements in case the hotel was fully booked.
I will surely/certainly try harder the next time.
During the flight she was sitting on the seat behind me.
The cinema was in the middle of a large shopping centre/mall
The present goverment is sure of losing the next election
He was a bit embarrassed of what he had said
Our main energetical source is nuclear power
Nowadays many criminals end up in jail
I spent the afternoon listening to records with my girl friend - correct
Having received news of his death, they stopped looking for him.

I hope this now makes it easier.

my english is still pretty good

Bels
16-12-2007, 15:59
The correctanswer is in bold:

Only those aware of the subject could join in the discussion.
Only those familiar with the subject could join in the discussion

aware of = conscious (of): Are you aware the train leaves in five minutes

familiar with = acquanted with: The aim of the course is to make you fully familiar with the latest teaching methods.

Bels
16-12-2007, 16:08
The present goverment is certain of losing the next election
The present government is certain to lose the next election

The bold is the correct answer, why?

Bels
16-12-2007, 17:05
In Sweden many wives and husbands stay at home alternatively to look after their children.
In Sweden many wives and husbands stay at home alternately to look after their children

The bold is the correct answer.

Bels
16-12-2007, 17:12
He was a bit embarrassed of what he had said
He was a bit embarrassed by what he had said

Bels
16-12-2007, 17:16
Our main energetic source is nuclear power
Our main energy source is nuclear power

The bold is correct

Bels
16-12-2007, 17:21
I spent the afternoon listening to records with my girl friend
I spent the afternoon listening to records with my girlfriend


girlfriend boyfriend, not girl friend boy friend.

The correct answer is in bold.

MickeyTong
16-12-2007, 17:22
Whenever one of my students doesn't give me the answer I am expecting I ask them to explain what they think was happening.
Looks fine to me. "one of my students" is singular, so "doesn't" is the appropriate word, surely? I'm not a teacher, but.......

Bels
16-12-2007, 17:30
I certainly will try harder the next time.
I will certainly try harder the next time

SalTheReturn
16-12-2007, 17:47
so you confused people by not underlining the exact number of words

Bels
16-12-2007, 18:19
so you confused people by not underlining the exact number of words

You've got me confused Sal.

You're supposed to look at the whole sentence and see if it's wrong. My 10 year old Russian stepson anwered me correctly with a lot of them. The quiz was spoken verbally to him. He didn't see the words.

My wife answered them all correct, verbally.She also gave the reasons why they were wrong immediately.

alterego
16-12-2007, 20:34
Looks fine to me. "one of my students" is singular, so "doesn't" is the appropriate word, surely? I'm not a teacher, but.......
Great! I'm never wrong. I only thought I was once but I was mistaken.

Bels
16-12-2007, 20:46
The following sentences have been corrected: The bold is correct.

Only those aware of the subject could join in the discussion.
Only those familiar with the subject could join in the argument
She was carrying a long and green umbrella.
She was carrying a long green umbrella.
In Sweden many wives and husbands stay at home alternatively to look after their children.
In Sweden many wives and husbands stay at home alternately to look after their children
We decided to make alternate arrangements in case the hotel was fully booked.
We decided to make alternative arrangements in case the hotel was fully booked.
I certainly will try harder the next time.
I will certainly try harder the next time.
During the flight she sat on the chair behind me.
During the flight she sat on the seat behind me
The cinema was in the middle of a large shopping center
The cinema was in the middle of a large shopping centre
The present goverment is certain of losing the next election
The present government is certain to lose the next election
He was a bit embarrassed of what he had said
He was a bit embarrassed by what he had said
Our main energetic source is nuclear power
Our main energy source is nuclear power
Nowadays many criminals end in jail
Nowadays many criminals end up in jail
I spent the afternoon listening to records with my girl friend
I spent the afternoon listening to records with my girlfriend
Having received news of his death, they stopped looking after him.
Having received news of his death, they stopped looking for him
Only those aware of the subject could join in the discussion.
Only those familiar with the subject could join in the discussion


Hopefully this is clearer for you sal. Now any questions of reasons why?

Bels
16-12-2007, 20:54
Great! I'm never wrong. I only thought I was once but I was mistaken.

Don't ever worry about. Tired teachers can make mistakes. And who knows what kind of envioronment you might be in, when you are communicating here. My family flat can be hectic.

Criticism to teachers are not normally from teachers here. Normally from those who like to moan, and offer nothing constructive to this forum. Not much point hitting back as they will just state that they are not teachers, and that we should know better. I've been there, thankfully it has calmed down now :)

IraM
17-12-2007, 01:50
My attempt to explain - apart from vocabulary:

1) Only those familiar with the subject could join in the discussion. vs

2) Only those who/that were familiar with the subject could join in the discussion.


1) When an adjective has its own complement (eg familiar with the subject), the whole expression normally comes after the noun/pronoun in attributive position.

2) A relative clause (who/that were familiar with the subject) is often more natural.


She was carrying a long green umbrella.

When several adjectives come before a noun (or when nouns are used to modify another noun), they have to be put in a particular order (opinion + fact: size (length, high)+color+origin+material +purpose) with no conjunctions between them.


I will certainly try harder the next time.

Mid-position adverbs usually go after auxiliary verbs, after am/is/are/was/were and before other verbs.

(I don’t know if the first variant I certainly will…is correct in AmE: In AmE mid-position adverbs are often put before auxiliary verbs. And next time is also possible?)

The cinema was in the middle of a large shopping centre.

(Isn’t center used in AmE? Also theater – theatre etc?)

The present government is certain to lose the next election.

There is a range of expressions with be that have modal meanings. They are used with to-infinitive: be about to, be able to, be bound to, be sure to, be certain to, be meant to etc.

He was a bit embarrassed by what he had said.

(also: about and at?)

Thank you for a great quiz!

alterego
17-12-2007, 06:35
The position of the adverb is rather complex. I tell my students to always put it before the main verb and after the auxillary. Sometimes it must go there and usually it works best there, although there are cases where it will not work there, and a few that different positions have different meanings.

'Embarrased at' doesn't work.

SalTheReturn
17-12-2007, 09:33
The position of the adverb is rather complex. I tell my students to always put it before the main verb and after the auxillary. Sometimes it must go there and usually it works best there, although there are cases where it will not work there, and a few that different positions have different meanings.

'Embarrased at' doesn't work.

the position of adverb in english is flexible as same as it is in many other languages (and i do not care what Bels says)

the difference it is that if you want to strenghten a concept you put it before the verb and if you do not care mch for emphasizing you place it after the verb

Bels
17-12-2007, 20:11
I've been very careful to give you clear facts only sal. The two previous posts were pretty good. I'll give you my reasons to the answers soon.

Just one point, it's important you know the difference between American and British English. You cannot mix it.

Bels
17-12-2007, 21:50
Ok, answering reason will take more time than I expected. Here’s another quiz for the time being to keep you busy while I try to type all the answers.
A few at a time or I won’t cope 

Same again, the use of words where it’s typical of students making mistakes. And these are mistakes. Sal try using a good dictionary, and not an English Italian one.

Sitting in the next seat was a young woman who was having a baby.
Despite the medicine, I started to feel more bad
I’m afraid I speak English very bad.
In my opinion both of the drivers were in fault

IraM
17-12-2007, 21:59
Sitting in the next seat was a young woman who was having a baby.
Despite the medicine, I started to feel more bad
Iím afraid I speak English very bad.
In my opinion both of the drivers were in fault


Sitting in the next seat was a young woman who was expecting a baby.
Despite the medicine, I started to feel worse.
Iím afraid I speak English very badly.
In my opinion both of the drivers were at fault.

Bels
17-12-2007, 22:07
Sitting in the next seat was a young woman who was expecting a baby.
Despite the medicine, I started to feel worse.
I’m afraid I speak English very badly.
In my opinion both of the drivers were at fault.

Welldone, all correct :) And very quick.

MickeyTong
17-12-2007, 22:15
Sitting in the next seat was a young woman who was having kittens.
Despite the medicine, I started to feel 10cm long insects crawling under my skin.
Iím afraid I speak about theEnglish very badly.
In my opinion both of the drivers were blind as bats and drunk as newts.

Bels
17-12-2007, 22:30
Sitting in the next seat was a young woman who was having kittens.
Despite the medicine, I started to feel 10cm long insects crawling under my skin.
I’m afraid I speak about theEnglish very badly.
In my opinion both of the drivers were blind as bats and drunk as newts.

Truly a native speakers answer. :) Hopefully you are not confusing our students with your sense of humour :)

And for that you have a greenie from me, thankyou

Bels
17-12-2007, 22:33
For getting it all correct, a greenie from me.Well done.

Bels
17-12-2007, 22:41
Another idea for teachers, let some of you try idioms and phrasal verbs. Which might be more difficult to use a dictionary.It all depends on which dictionaries the students might have. It's all about practice. And I think it might be popular with some students

I'm sticking with mistakes for the moment.

MickeyTong
18-12-2007, 00:00
Thanks for the Greenie, Bels. Humour?: I was serious, these bugs are driving me loopy.

SalTheReturn
18-12-2007, 01:19
Welldone, all correct :) And very quick.

compared to the first misleading excercise you put those sentences were pretty much basic

i do not use dictionaries to answer you...

take care

Sal

Bels
18-12-2007, 11:00
compared to the first misleading excercise you put those sentences were pretty much basic

i do not use dictionaries to answer you...

take care

Sal

Perhaps you're just getting used to it sal, the style was exactly the same. Sometimes it's best to look up the highlighted words in a dictionary. I didn't mean to simply answer me in communication.

Bels
18-12-2007, 20:46
Only those aware of the subject could join in the discussion.
Only those familiar with the subject could join in the argument

Aware of = conscious (0f): “I became aware of someone following me. “ Are you aware that the train leaves in five minutes?”
Familiar with = acquainted with


She was carrying a long and green umbrella.
She was carrying a long green umbrella.

Two adjectives coming before a noun are not usually separated by and unless for example colours; a red and green blouse.

In Sweden many wives and husbands stay at home alternatively to look after their children.
In Sweden many wives and husbands stay at home alternately to look after their children
Alternate means in turns, first one and then the other

We decided to make alternate arrangements in case the hotel was fully booked.
We decided to make alternative arrangements in case the hotel was fully booked.
The first sentence is correct in American English, The second one is correct in British English

Bels
18-12-2007, 21:20
Same again, the use of words where it’s typical of students making mistakes. And these are mistakes. My guinea pigs had difficulty with the below sentences, my wife and 10 year old stepson. You might need a dictionary to discover how these words are used.

The opposite woman was knitting a cardigan.
If someone tried to open a new topic, she would immediately interrupt.
According to Henry’s opinion, less money should be spent on weapons.
The harbour was full of ships of different nationalities

I think I'm making it too easy by highlighting the misused words.

IraM
18-12-2007, 23:54
The opposite woman was knitting a cardigan.
If someone tried to open a new topic, she would immediately interrupt.
According to Henryís opinion, less money should be spent on weapons.
The harbour was full of ships of different nationalities


Do you need another guinea pig?:):)

Maybe something like:

The woman (sitting) opposite us was knitting a kardigan.
If someone tried to bring up/raise a new topic, she would immediately interrupt.
According to Henry's point of view, less money should be spent on weapons.
The harbor was full of ships of different nations.

Bels
19-12-2007, 00:09
First clue, you can only have nationalities with people not ships.:) I'll be back :)

Anton Bourbon
23-12-2007, 00:59
I spent the afternoon listening to records with my girl friend
I spent the afternoon listening to records with my girlfriend


girlfriend boyfriend, not girl friend boy friend.

The correct answer is in bold.

Bels, first of all, thanks for the quiz.
The sentence quoted (or to be more precise just the word `girlfriend' ) confuses me because in this thread you emphasize that `girl friend' is wrong while in another thread you used it (with a space) several times:
http://www.expat.ru/forum/travel-passport-control/48373-advice-getting-us-visa-my-girlfriend.html#post316640
I might guess that 1) you were in a hurry writing `girl friend' or 2) it does not matter that much really and both `girlfriend' and `girl friend' are acceptable.
Could you clarify this?

Bels
23-12-2007, 11:29
Girl friend, boy friend are unacceptable, and that's all my dictionary states.
It's girlfriend, boyfriend.

If I typed it otherwise I was wrong. :)

MickeyTong
30-12-2007, 06:17
Someone asked me - what's the difference between "will" and "shall". I was stumped for an answer.....Please, enlighten me.

IraM
30-12-2007, 20:54
Some grammar stuff from a bookworm! :rules:

1. Will - for all persons, shall - for I/we only. Will when used with I/we is generally less formal than shall. Shall is becomming less common than will in BrE and is not normally used in AmE. So if you refers to future intentions 'll or will is much more frequent than shall in spoken/informal English.

2. Although Shall I/we is common in the making of suggestions and in seeking advice:

Shall I answer the door? Shall we go out tonight? (Sometimes will can be used here instead - in informal conversation - actually I've never heard will in such meanings from my British friends - pls, enlighten me!)

3. (esp. useful point for Preston's students!) Shall is also used in contracts and other legal documents. In such cases, it normally occurs with third-person subject:

The insured shall remain the sole owner of the vehicle.

Bels
31-12-2007, 13:29
Someone asked me - what's the difference between "will" and "shall". I was stumped for an answer.....Please, enlighten me.

Good question and Ira beat me to it. I even took the trouble to refer it from a very good grammar book, and she's absolutely right, and I have nothing to add :(

The book is Grammar for English Language Teachers by Martin Parrot.
Publishers: Cambridge University Press.

I think the American now consider it old fashioned, but it's still in most course books as shall and shan't.

I shall is considered as I'll in the Cambridge dictionary, but I will is the same.
Confusing isn't it :)

Bels
31-12-2007, 13:33
" Cinderella, you shall go to the ball this evening" :)
It sounds much better than will, doesn't it.

MickeyTong
31-12-2007, 17:12
Thanks folks
For reasons which I cannot recall, I had the idea that "will" is used for intentions and "shall" for stuff which definitely shall be. So......I looked in an etymological dictionary Online Etymology Dictionary (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=shall&searchmode=none)
and discovered that these words have different roots: "shall" has the implication of obligation (hence its use in legal documents, Ira) and "will" implies choice and volition, but I doubt that such a distinction is made now.
When speaking, obviously, I use contractions.

IraM
31-12-2007, 18:04
About Cinderella I think it is the following:

Shall for directives but this use is very formal and rare (and maybe more poetic!)

You shall go to your room and stay there until it is dark!



And a bit more about 'll.

'll can be used as an independent form, not as a contraction of either will or shall. (Actually I thought they were contractions!)

As an independent form, 'll is used to indicate

a) an instantaneous personal decision:

There's a garage. We'll just stop and get some petrol.

b) informal decisions or arrangements where will or shall would sound too direct or imposing:

Okay. That's it then. We'll meet next week, I suppose.

The book is Cambridge Grammar of English by Ronald Carter and Michael McCarthy 2006 (a thick green volume with CD-ROM)

It's almost 6 now! My decision: I'll rush to the supermarket for a bottle of bubbly!! С Новым Годом! До встречи в 2008-м!:hooray:

Bels
01-01-2008, 00:56
Girl friend, boy friend are unacceptable, and that's all my dictionary states.
It's girlfriend, boyfriend.

If I typed it otherwise I was wrong. :)

Correct :)

Bels
01-01-2008, 01:02
About Cinderella I think it is the following:

Shall for directives but this use is very formal and rare (and maybe more poetic!)

You shall go to your room and stay there until it is dark!



And a bit more about 'll.

'll can be used as an independent form, not as a contraction of either will or shall. (Actually I thought they were contractions!)

As an independent form, 'll is used to indicate

a) an instantaneous personal decision:

There's a garage. We'll just stop and get some petrol.

b) informal decisions or arrangements where will or shall would sound too direct or imposing:

Okay. That's it then. We'll meet next week, I suppose.

The book is Cambridge Grammar of English by Ronald Carter and Michael McCarthy 2006 (a thick green volume with CD-ROM)

It's almost 6 now! My decision: I'll rush to the supermarket for a bottle of bubbly!! С Новым Годом! До встречи в 2008-м!:hooray:

I'm a bit of a scan reader, I only read what I want to know., But I am aware that novel writers can be heavily criticised on grammar, especially the chap who wrote Lord of The Rings. I am not a Grammatician, I am an artist. That says it all don't you think :)

Bels
01-01-2008, 01:21
About Cinderella I think it is the following:

Shall for directives but this use is very formal and rare (and maybe more poetic!)

You shall go to your room and stay there until it is dark!



And a bit more about 'll.

'll can be used as an independent form, not as a contraction of either will or shall. (Actually I thought they were contractions!)

As an independent form, 'll is used to indicate

a) an instantaneous personal decision:

There's a garage. We'll just stop and get some petrol.

b) informal decisions or arrangements where will or shall would sound too direct or imposing:

Okay. That's it then. We'll meet next week, I suppose.

The book is Cambridge Grammar of English by Ronald Carter and Michael McCarthy 2006 (a thick green volume with CD-ROM)

It's almost 6 now! My decision: I'll rush to the supermarket for a bottle of bubbly!! С Новым Годом! До встречи в 2008-м!:hooray:

I am sticking wth I and we but a few exceptions. Like poetic and sounds coming from authers of plays and even books, there are always artists around who want to change the form of grammar and sometimes it works if they are prominent enough. that's the way it is. Aint it ?

alterego
01-01-2008, 10:08
As an American I don't have a wide perspective on the use of 'shall'. However I highly recommend reading Michael Lewis' "The English Verb" for an amazingly complete explanation of 'shall' and 'will'.
Basically 'will' says that it is the only possiblity so that is what is going to happen.
If you pull out the last support then the structure will fall.
The special case of this is when it is possible for you to do something and the only remaining factor is if you want to do it. Then 'will' is used for your intention.
I will go home now. (It is possible and I want to do it so it is going to happen.)

'Shall' is similar but includes some authority. So it is fine to order yourself to do something, I shall go home now, but it is rather rude to use it in the second person, 'you shall go home now'. Unless of course you are God, 'Thou shall not kill'.
It is also ok to use it in first person plural if you are in charge. Winston Churchill and Margret Thatcher, both very good speakers, did this, 'We shall fight them on the beaches . . ."
This use can also be found in a song, "We shall overcome" here it is showing each individual's resolution to overcome not that anyone is the leader and instructing everyone else.

Now in the question form the authority is given to the listener so "Shall we go?" is very polite because it gives all the authority to the listener. This pretty much the only way that Americans use 'shall', unless we want to sound pompous.

Bels
01-01-2008, 18:12
good post. I'm just wondering what's happened to our forum listing at the index of teachers lessons and teacher's folder.

Bels
02-01-2008, 20:52
Ok now a quiz with the misuse of shall,

The next meeting of the heads of state shall take place in Paris.
I shall be very grateful if you could help me with my problem.

And will?
When capital punishment was abolished, people thought that murders will become more numerous.

And would?
Some people might argue that a woman wouldn't work if she has children.
If you would have any more questions, I'll do my best to answer them.




Pretty Good. These are the answers below:


Ok now a quiz with the misuse of shall,

The next meeting of the heads of state will take place in Paris.
I'll be very grateful if you could help me with my problem.

And will?
When capital punishment was abolished, people thought that murders would become more numerous.

And would?
Some people might argue that a woman shouldn't work if she has children.
If you should have any more questions, I'll do my best to answer them.

AndreyS
02-01-2008, 21:05
Ok now a quiz with the misuse of shall,

The next meeting of the heads of state shall take place in Paris.
I shall be very grateful if you could help me with my problem.

And will?
When capital punishment was abolished, people thought that murders will become more numerous.

And would?
Some people might argue that a woman wouldn't work if she has children.
If you would have any more questions, I'll do my best to answer them.

Imho,

The next... wil take place...
Or:
...is to take place...
I would be very grateful if you could help me...
When capital punishment .... murders would become more numerous.
Some people might argue...shouldn't work if she has...
If you have....I 'll do my best...
Or:
Should you have... I will do my best....

Sorry for the gaps.

alterego
02-01-2008, 22:08
The common Russian mistake with will is
"When it will be five o'clock I will do something."

I tell them that it is true now so they should do that something now.

Bels
02-01-2008, 22:11
Sorry I edited by mistake instead of using my post as a quote.
Here it is again below Andrey who was the the last post.

Ok now a quiz with the misuse of shall,

The next meeting of the heads of state shall take place in Paris.
I shall be very grateful if you could help me with my problem.

And will?
When capital punishment was abolished, people thought that murders will become more numerous.

And would?
Some people might argue that a woman wouldn't work if she has children.
If you would have any more questions, I'll do my best to answer them.




Pretty Good. These are the answers below:


Ok now a quiz with the misuse of shall,

The next meeting of the heads of state will take place in Paris.
I'll be very grateful if you could help me with my problem.

And will?
When capital punishment was abolished, people thought that murders would become more numerous.

And would?
Some people might argue that a woman shouldn't work if she has children.
If you should have any more questions, I'll do my best to answer them.

AndreyS
02-01-2008, 22:17
The common Russian mistake with will is
"When it will be five o'clock I will do something."



Yes, but this mistake is very obvious, there is nothing to explain about it (1st conditional)

Bels
02-01-2008, 22:27
The common Russian mistake with will is
"When it will be five o'clock I will do something."

I tell them that it is true now so they should do that something now.

I do hope that this problem is sorted out at about the middle of Intermediate level. That is a few lessons covering all the tenses of future. When to use will, when to use going to, when to use the present simple and present continuous for future.

For example present simple for time schedules. I do believe there is a need to have plenty of verbal practice in this area afterwards.

AndreyS
02-01-2008, 22:35
I do hope that this problem is sorted out at about the middle of Intermediate level. That is a few lessons covering all the tenses of future. When to use will, when to use going to, when to use the present simple and present continuous for future.

For example present simple for time schedules. I do believe there is a need to have plenty of verbal practice in this area afterwards.

Absolutely agree. And oral practice is what we are all lacking...

alterego
03-01-2008, 00:14
Yes, but this mistake is very obvious, there is nothing to explain about it (1st conditional)
No, it's not a conditional at all. Not even a zero conditional.

I think everyone would agree that the sun will rise tomorrow.
So it is true now that the sun will rise tomorrow.

"When the sun will rise tomorrow I will get up."
Well that is true now so you should get up now.

The correct way is
"When the sun rises tomorrow I will get up."

AndreyS
03-01-2008, 00:20
No, it's not a conditional at all. Not even a zero conditional.

I think everyone would agree that the sun will rise tomorrow.
So it is true now that the sun will rise tomorrow.

"When the sun will rise tomorrow I will get up."
Well that is true now so you should get up now.

The correct way is
"When the sun rises tomorrow I will get up."

Completely agree. But in the original clause it was like:

When it's 5 o'clock, I will have tea.

This seems to be closer to the 1 st cond., doesn't it?

It's our decision, not high forces of nature.

alterego
03-01-2008, 12:22
Completely agree. But in the original clause it was like:

When it's 5 o'clock, I will have tea.

This seems to be closer to the 1 st cond., doesn't it?

It's our decision, not high forces of nature.

Well I'm not sure if you know what a clause is but you definitely don't have the right idea about conditionals.

"When it is 5 o'clock " is a clause. The sentence as a whole is not a conditional. Most conditionals, 1-3, use the word 'if'. The zero conditional talks about a regular consistent result.
When it is 5 o'clock I have tea. Meaning Everyday when it is 5 o'clock this happens. No 'will' in the zero conditional.
choice and force of nature don't really have anything to do with it, (not neccessarily anyways)

AndreyS
03-01-2008, 13:57
Well I'm not sure if you know what a clause is but you definitely don't have the right idea about conditionals.

"When it is 5 o'clock " is a clause. The sentence as a whole is not a conditional. Most conditionals, 1-3, use the word 'if'. The zero conditional talks about a regular consistent result.
When it is 5 o'clock I have tea. Meaning Everyday when it is 5 o'clock this happens. No 'will' in the zero conditional.
choice and force of nature don't really have anything to do with it, (not neccessarily anyways)

Alterego, thank you for your attention. English is your mother tongue, not mine. So you are right. Still I d like to give my arguments:

Quoting from the monolingual dictionary (Macmillan): Clause is a group of words which includes a verb and a subject and is a sentence or a main part of one.


From Reward Upper-intermediate by Simon Greenall:
When is used in 0 and 1 conditional sentences for actions and events which are more certain.
Examples:
When I go out to night I will have dinner in a restaurant. (1 st)
I will give it to you when you get there at 9 am. (1 st)

These situations are not regular, not everyday routine.

IraM
03-01-2008, 17:47
The common Russian mistake with will is
"When it will be five o'clock I will do something."


Yes, that's very true - that's quite a common mistake because in Russian we use future tense in the time (subordinate) clause + future tense in the main clause.

So I start my explanation with the basic thing:

To refer to the future present tenses (not will) are used in time clauses (they start with the conjunctions when, while, after, before, as soon as, until etc) and in 1-st Conditionals
(they start with the conjunctions if, in case, as long as, provided/providing (that) etc) instead of future tenses.

If we're leaving now I'll get my raincoat.
You can come as long as you behave yourself.

I'll be able to join you as soon as I've finished.
When I retire/have retired I'll take up yoga practicing!

So in the time and 1-st condition clauses: Present Simple, Present Continuous, Present Perfect; in the main clauses: will + bare inf., modal verb, be going to.

As a variant of the 1-st conditional: Imperative (with the conditional meaning) + will: Do more exercises and you'll loose a few kilos. = If you do more exercises....

The zero conditional is different. It is used to show that one thing (action, result etc) always follows another. The tense scheme is usually like this: Present Simple + Present Simple. It's an interesting fact that in this type when and if mean almost the same:

If/When water freezes it turns to ice.
If/When I run fast I'm out of breath.


The funniest thing is that after your students start using the tenses properly (after loads of exercises!!) they should get used to another grammar trick - will after if and when.

And here I have to say something like: 'Please don't confuse the said above with the following:

Direct and indirect questions starting with When:

When will they come round?
I've no idea when they'll come round.

And with if:

1) indirect questions (non-wh-questions):

I wonder if (whether) Peter will pick us up. (of course if here is not the condition conjunction)

in the if-clause with the meaning of:

2) refusal (won't):

If he won't go, there is nothing you can do about it.

3) polite request:

If you will get there first, keep a seat for me.

4) strong disapproval at smb's insistance on doing smth:

If you will drive so fast, you must expect to have accidents.

5) smth will happen as a result:

I'll give up misplacing my stuff if it will make you a bit happier, darling!'.

And it's not a problem to use such terms like clauses etc because Russians know сложноподчиненные предложения с придаточным (subordinate clause) и главным предложением (main clause) from school.
Actually I use such terms as rarely as possible - only if it helps the students understand grammar. First we learn the rules then we use them then we forget the rules - we don't need them any more!

alterego
03-01-2008, 18:23
Ira, #1 is not a conditional (I think you realize that so I don't know why you included it)

#3 and #4 show the mis-use of will

'Will' can be used before and after the conditional but not in conjunction with 'when',(normally).
In an abnormal case you can put them together but it will have a different meaning than you probably expect. (see my previous post)

Andrey I expect that you have mis-read your book. If not then the book is wrong. If you go to the lessons folder you can probably find someone to teach it to you.

AndreyS
03-01-2008, 19:20
Andrey I expect that you have mis-read your book. If not then the book is wrong. If you go to the lessons folder you can probably find someone to teach it to you.


When I come home I will give you a ring.
When I have read the book I will lend it to you.


I didn't misread the book, maybe it is wrong (or the author just expresses his private opinion). I understand what you mean - when is normally used in zero conditionals. In some other books the above sentences are called time clauses (not conditionals) (f.e. New Headway by L. and J. Soars).

PS: To teach it to me... You can't teach an old dog new tricks. ;-)))

IraM
03-01-2008, 20:29
Ira, #1 is not a conditional (I think you realize that so I don't know why you included it)

#3 and #4 show the mis-use of will




Alterego, I always appreciate your help!

#1 is given here not because it's the conditional but merely because it's also if and some students say 'well, it's if so it the conditional with future reference so I have to put present tense here'.


#3 Oops! My mistake!! The wrong example!! It's If you get there first, keep a seat for me. - of course!!
The variant for #2 : If you'll take a seat, I'll see if the doctor's free.

#4 - The variant I 'stole' from the book Grammar and Vocabulary for Cambridge Advanced and Proficiency by Richard Side and Guy Wellman.
This usage was new for me for this topic and I decided to add it here - the rest is well-known for me. Maybe it's from BrE? Probably I just don't see my mistake here - the example or/and the usage? Pls enlighten me.

The biggest problem for non-natives - we have books to rely on and that's why your help (alterego, Bels, MickeyTong and others) as native speakers is so important to me!! I'm always ready to be tought from you!:agree:
When I teach Russian I quite often say, 'this rule/usage is a bit old-fashioned and that one is just the author's mistake! Fortunately, I am always able to rely on my mother tongue. With English it's different.:(


'Will' can be used before and after the conditional but not in conjunction with 'when',(normally).
In an abnormal case you can put them together but it will have a different meaning than you probably expect. (see my previous post)


Am I wrong here?
Direct and indirect questions starting with When:

When will they come round?
I've no idea when they'll come round.



(see my previous post)Sorry, which post do you mean - there've been a lot of them...

Bels
03-01-2008, 21:24
Too much to say here, first of all I thought I'd leave the argument to alterego But I believe Alterego thought the same as me. most certainly a few of your sentence examples could not have come from the books you have referred to.

You both have come out with a mixture of examples and you might be blowing your poor pupils brains out.

Please do not ask untrained expas, as they will probabl know less than you do. They will know when somehing looks strange but won't be able to expain why, they just know and that's it.

Alterego is your best bet for the moment. I strongly suggest that your students who are studying Headway are backed up with supplying them also with Grammar in Use by Murphy. And use it in the clasroom, because grammar is explained simply and their is plenty of practice.
Don't hammer the grammar, keep your lessons as varied and as enjoyable as possible with the use of listening, reading, and speaking skills combined in one lesson. Let's not forget that they are paying clients and they want enjoyable results.

alterego
03-01-2008, 23:12
From my previous post:
I think everyone would agree that the sun will rise tomorrow.
So it is true now that the sun will rise tomorrow.

"When the sun will rise tomorrow I will get up."
Well that is true now so you should get up now.

The correct way is
"When the sun rises tomorrow I will get up."

If I tell you that I will buy you lunch when I am the director then you know that you will not get this lunch until I have moved into the director’s office.

If I tell you that I will buy you lunch when I will be the director then as soon as they tell me that I will be the director I have to buy you lunch right then even though they said that I will be the director next year. This is not a common case but if you use will here that’s what it means.

If someone says “If you will get there before me . . .” it sounds to me like they are
either a foreigner,
Are speaking too quickly and haven’t fully formed the idea yet
Or they are trying to sound smarter than they are by using too many words

Generally I don’t teach rules to my students but I do give them the rule when they ask. This is usually when they want to check that I’m right. I'm only discussing them here because this is the Teacher's Discussion Folder.

If you will take a seat then I will see if the doctor is free.
Technically here all you have to do is promise to take a seat and then she will go get the doctor. In this case the nurse is probably trying to be polite because ‘take a seat’ sounds a bit like an order. The difference between taking your seat and saying you will take your seat is about 5 seconds so I don’t see a practical difference.






Direct and indirect questions starting with When:

When will they come round?
I've no idea when they'll come round.

This is fine. The mistake that Russians usually make is to say
"I’ve no idea when will they come round."

Unrelated to conditionals though.




Cambridge is a British text. So perhaps that example is valid in Brit speak. Definitely sounds wrong to my American ear though. (see my explanation above)

IraM
04-01-2008, 00:12
Too much to say here, first of all I thought I'd leave the argument to alterego But I believe Alterego thought the same as me. most certainly a few of your sentence examples could not have come from the books you have referred to.

You both have come out with a mixture of examples and you might be blowing your poor pupils brains out.

Please do not ask untrained expas, as they will probabl know less than you do. They will know when somehing looks strange but won't be able to expain why, they just know and that's it.

Alterego is your best bet for the moment. I strongly suggest that your students who are studying Headway are backed up with supplying them also with Grammar in Use by Murphy. And use it in the clasroom, because grammar is explained simply and their is plenty of practice.
Don't hammer the grammar, keep your lessons as varied and as enjoyable as possible with the use of listening, reading, and speaking skills combined in one lesson. Let's not forget that they are paying clients and they want enjoyable results.

What I want the least is to stuff the students' heads with grammar - it would be too boring and non-productive!! I normally spend much more time practising listening/speaking skills. However, we're discussing grammar now, aren't we?

Please don't get me wrong - I'm not expecting linguistic explanations from expats - I'm interested in their thoughts/everyday language practice in order to take this into consideration (which does not mean I'll throw the books away at once!!) And I'd like to know the difference between BrE and AmE.

Do imagine the situation: you've made up your mind to teach Russian for a change. You know the language quite well - you speak Russian fluently - you've picked up something from your wife and some Russian friends of yours and now you have to explain it to those whose mother tongue is not Russian.
What will you do? You'll start reading books, won't you? And I think you'll go on listening to the Russians around you as well. So you'll teach yourself both from your books and from your friends. I might be wrong - you might choose another way. I'm talking about mine with English.

Students' needs are different. Murphy is more than enough for most of them - I agree with you - but there exist other programmes: Academic Writing, CAE, CPE, entrance exams for future linguists with their grammar quizzes (Brr!) etc, etc. And some of the examples I chose for my previous posts are not for beginners-pre-intermediates. And a few are for upper-intermediates.

Anyway, if the stuff I'm talking about makes the others bored I'll give up doing it. No problem - I'm not the only here on the forum.

alterego
04-01-2008, 07:49
Ira, that's what I like about teaching children. They never ask why. I tell my adult students that I can teach them English in one hour. I can also teach them to play tennis in one hour, but they are not going to be any good at it. They have to practice and make these rules automatic. Fluent conversation does not have time to think about the rules. As you know most native speakers don't know the rules. They just know from experience the correct way to say something.
What's more there are a lot of incorrect rules out there. Not only from Russian teachers of English but also from native speaking teachers.
Some well known but false rules include:
'Some' in the positive and 'any' in the negative
Nouns that end in 'f' change to 'v' in the plural (i.e. wife/wives)
and for many Russian English teachers,
'going to' is for the near future

for the above and other problem areas I give lots of exercises to make the different situations clear and to make the correct pattern automatic.

I've been teaching Russians long enough that I know where they are going to have problems and I can concentrate on just those areas. I even know the areas where they will complain about having to do something that they think they already know.

sixfootwo
04-01-2008, 19:10
Some grammar stuff from a bookworm! :rules:

1. Will - for all persons, shall - for I/we only. Will when used with I/we is generally less formal than shall. Shall is becomming less common than will in BrE and is not normally used in AmE. So if you refers to future intentions 'll or will is much more frequent than shall in spoken/informal English.

2. Although Shall I/we is common in the making of suggestions and in seeking advice:

Shall I answer the door? Shall we go out tonight? (Sometimes will can be used here instead - in informal conversation - actually I've never heard will in such meanings from my British friends - pls, enlighten me!)

3. (esp. useful point for Preston's students!) Shall is also used in contracts and other legal documents. In such cases, it normally occurs with third-person subject:

The insured shall remain the sole owner of the vehicle.

Shall is also used mainly in questions rather than statements.

Bels
04-01-2008, 19:59
Shall is also used mainly in questions rather than statements.

Can you give me a few examples of questions of shall and the negative shan't

Bels
04-01-2008, 20:02
I shall be home sometime between 9 and 10pm this evening.
I shant be home this evening.

sixfootwo
04-01-2008, 21:09
I shall be home sometime between 9 and 10pm this evening.
I shant be home this evening.

Yeah, your examples are fine, but like I said mainly......

Here are some questions :

Shall we have one for the road ?

Well, what shall we do now then ?

Shall I close the window ?

Shall we go to the cinema if it rains tomorrow ?

Shall I carry your bags / help you with your homework ?
(I think these are quite useful examples of shall in everyday use)

If it doesn't rain, we shan't be going to the cinema tomorrow.
(can't think of too many examples of using the negative of shall which would be useful to a student...)

Frankly I don't really like teaching shall / shan't as it is a bit limited in everyday language, so I try to just give a few practical examples which I think that particular student may need or hear ( especially when making a suggestion or offer), and leave it at that.

BTW - will is also used often in official announcements, eg "The Queen will visit Balmoral" or "The price of petrol will rise next week" (very common in the UK at present !!).

Any good ? Please let me know (i'm still quite a new teacher, and thirst for knowledge).

MickeyTong
04-01-2008, 21:20
Wow!!! 2 pages of the forum about "shall" and "will". Hot topic?!?!?!?
Interesting discussion, though. I shall have to give up using "shall", shan't I?

Bels
04-01-2008, 21:23
Very good, you thought up more than I did on top of my head, but I've got the flu.

A very good start, and I wish you all the best in the future. In regards to teaching shall, well no not on its own but students must be aware of it, because people do use it. And the course books cover it, and it's upto of whether you want to exclude it.