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Alan65
02-09-2013, 23:05
The little one went back to school today as did most children.

The one thing that i did not realise were the school hours, this year she will be going to school from between 12 - 4, last year it was 8 - 11.

Is this normal throughout Russia or is it a St Petes thing, what complications does this put on parents when it comes to working times etc, are only a few hours a day enough for children of 7 - 8 years old.

PS... I am only interested in how other people deal with this NOT a religious/philiscophical/moral debate.

xSnoofovich
02-09-2013, 23:36
what? that can't be right at all....

i mean, sadik (yastly) is about 3 hours long...

maybe it was just first day or something?

Alan65
02-09-2013, 23:40
what? that can't be right at all....

i mean, sadik (yastly) is about 3 hours long...

maybe it was just first day or something?

Not at all, that is what I asked, as I posted, last year 8 - 11, this year 12 - 4, this was/is for the full year.

I obviously knew the little one was going back to school, I just assumed it would be a 9 - 3 like in the UK etc...also getting a bit taken back by the curriculum, it is all hard subjects....maths, technology, russian and this year english.....there is nothing like art, sport, history, etc.

Suuryaa
02-09-2013, 23:50
Not at all, that is what I asked, as I posted, last year 8 - 11, this year 12 - 4, this was/is for the full year.

I obviously knew the little one was going back to school, I just assumed it would be a 9 - 3 like in the UK etc...also getting a bit taken back by the curriculum, it is all hard subjects....maths, technology, russian and this year english.....there is nothing like art, sport, history, etc.

What grade is she in?

BabyFirefly
02-09-2013, 23:50
Is she in some sort of special school for a certain subject?

Alan65
02-09-2013, 23:56
Is she in some sort of special school for a certain subject?

BBF...not at all, all of the things special thing she can do ....riding motorbikes etc :D i have taught her, trust me she is competitive and can beat most kids her age at sports but that is a recent thing

Sur.

She is 7 going on 8 in November, i do not know what the Russian grade system is but it is a normal school.

I struggle to understand how a family deals with teh differential teaching hours, 1 year 8 - 11, the next 12 - 4, also what does this teach a child?

Suuryaa
03-09-2013, 00:06
BBF...not at all, all of the things special thing she can do ....riding motorbikes etc :D i have taught her, trust me she is competitive and can beat most kids her age at sports but that is a recent thing

Sur.

She is 7 going on 8 in November, i do not know what the Russian grade system is but it is a normal school.

I struggle to understand how a family deals with teh differential teaching hours, 1 year 8 - 11, the next 12 - 4, also what does this teach a child?

It's called вторая смена - second session/shift. They do it because the number of the classrooms is not enough to sit all the children.

She should be in the second grade. Are you sure there's no art and sport? There should be. Maybe the names of the subjects are complicated. Or they'll appear later.

Alan65
03-09-2013, 00:18
It's called вторая смена - second session/shift. They do it because the number of the classrooms is not enough to sit all the children.

She should be in the second grade. Are you sure there's no art and sport? There should be. Maybe the names of the subjects are complicated. Or they'll appear later.

Thanks Sur.....that expains it, with breaks between classes, lets assume an academic hour is 45 minutes are 4 lessons a day enough or is it simply cramming in the dry subjects like maths etc to the detriment of a rounded development?

I have looked at tennis/swimming lessons etc, these are not provided and if it is the case I will look at after school activities etc.

xSnoofovich
03-09-2013, 00:21
Not at all, that is what I asked, as I posted, last year 8 - 11, this year 12 - 4, this was/is for the full year.

I obviously knew the little one was going back to school, I just assumed it would be a 9 - 3 like in the UK etc...also getting a bit taken back by the curriculum, it is all hard subjects....maths, technology, russian and this year english.....there is nothing like art, sport, history, etc.

Wow, I guess on one hand, if she can do it, then its a great set-up.... in and out of school in what 4 hours? on the other hand, it really seems like she is getting cheated out of some stuff, like making friends, and just general school experiences overall.

this still can't be right.

if ur in st. pete, i would go to or try to find a button-pusher (person who can make decisions) and take something with u to help u plead ur case (whatever that something might be, maybe some chocolate, or maybe even a baseball bat (in case, u know, they want to try, um learn about new sports)

Alan65
03-09-2013, 00:41
Wow, I guess on one hand, if she can do it, then its a great set-up.... in and out of school in what 4 hours? on the other hand, it really seems like she is getting cheated out of some stuff, like making friends, and just general school experiences overall.

this still can't be right.

if ur in st. pete, i would go to or try to find a button-pusher (person who can make decisions) and take something with u to help u plead ur case (whatever that something might be, maybe some chocolate, or maybe even a baseball bat (in case, u know, they want to try, um learn about new sports)

I think you are sort of hitting the nail on the head in so far as it does seem to be a production line and that she is being cheated out of some of the experiences like making friends and general schooling etc.

I am only in St Petes once a month, I only found out about this situation today but a few weeks ago we were looking at swimming, tennis classes etc, we will just make sure it happens now.

Many thanks

xSnoofovich
03-09-2013, 01:04
Thanks Sur.....that expains it, with breaks between classes, lets assume an academic hour is 45 minutes are 4 lessons a day enough or is it simply cramming in the dry subjects like maths etc to the detriment of a rounded development?

I have looked at tennis/swimming lessons etc, these are not provided and if it is the case I will look at after school activities etc.

Idea?

If the core subjects are covered, why not go for private lessons for the others? If you don't get the results, you just fire the teacher(s) and take another(others)?

tonytony
03-09-2013, 01:41
The little one went back to school today as did most children.

The one thing that i did not realise were the school hours, this year she will be going to school from between 12 - 4, last year it was 8 - 11.

Is this normal throughout Russia or is it a St Petes thing, what complications does this put on parents when it comes to working times etc, are only a few hours a day enough for children of 7 - 8 years old.

PS... I am only interested in how other people deal with this NOT a religious/philiscophical/moral debate.


The majority of Russian schools do not have a second shift and, in particular, lyceums and gymnasiums never have a second shift, you will only ever find them in the ''bog standard'' schools.

I think that it's only about 10-15% of schools that do this where there is excessive demand for school places in a particular neighbourhood.

There are also rules about which years go on the first and second shift - for example, Year 1 and Year 11 always have to be taught on the first shift. I guess this is why your little one has changed times.

If your little one has only just started school then I guess there's not so much to worry about. But you might want to ask what happens when he/she gets to year 5. Does this double shift carry on throughout the school? If so, you may want to consider whether this school is right for your little one.

robertmf
03-09-2013, 03:19
Idea?

If the core subjects are covered, why not go for private lessons for the others? If you don't get the results, you just fire the teacher(s) and take another(others)?

On 60 Minutes last night was a segment on the Khan Academy (https://www.khanacademy.org/)

Alan65
03-09-2013, 10:08
The majority of Russian schools do not have a second shift and, in particular, lyceums and gymnasiums never have a second shift, you will only ever find them in the ''bog standard'' schools.

I think that it's only about 10-15% of schools that do this where there is excessive demand for school places in a particular neighbourhood.

There are also rules about which years go on the first and second shift - for example, Year 1 and Year 11 always have to be taught on the first shift. I guess this is why your little one has changed times.

If your little one has only just started school then I guess there's not so much to worry about. But you might want to ask what happens when he/she gets to year 5. Does this double shift carry on throughout the school? If so, you may want to consider whether this school is right for your little one.

What you say makes interestesting reading, yes we will have to find out if this single shift carries through especially when read in conjunction with this article

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/with-new-law-free-education-could-become-thing-of-the-past/485313.html


"The number of schools in Russia has been on the decline for more than three decades. According to state statistics, in 1980 there were just under 75,000 secondary schools in the country, while this year fewer than 45,000 will open their doors to students. Since last year, more than 700 schools closed due to lack of students, with about 250 of them in villages"

Which begs the question what is happening to the teachers and lets face it it whilst not perfect how hard is it to erect a few temporary buildings.

Whilst I know teachers are not babysitters, how are people supposed to hold down jobs etc when there is such a failing, i use such language as I would not use the word only 10 - 15 % when it comes to primary school education.

So much energy is put into protecting minors from gay propoganda, why not put an equal amount of energy into giving them ALL classrooms and teachers first.

@ xSnoofovich

It is obiously something we are looking at, more on the softer side, arts, sports etc, we are hoping to find somewhere does does pre/post school activities.

Alan65
03-09-2013, 10:10
On 60 Minutes last night was a segment on the Khan Academy (https://www.khanacademy.org/)


Cheers Rob....she will have too learn English first :D

Suuryaa
03-09-2013, 10:21
You may want to find a specialised school dedicated to subjects you think more important, usually these are lyceums and gymnasiums. There are also classes (i.e. groups of pupils) in usual schools that have different programs. Your girlfriend can find the information since it'll be in Russian - by typing something like программы обучения в начальной школе.

Alan65
03-09-2013, 10:29
You may want to find a specialised school dedicated to subjects you think more important, usually these are lyceums and gymnasiums. There are also classes (i.e. groups of pupils) in usual schools that have different programs. Your girlfriend can find the information since it'll be in Russian - by typing something like программы обучения в начальной школе.

I know what she will be doing with her long 3 month summer holiday next year, coming over here to an English school :D

Mind you she loves London and its shops :D

VicY
03-09-2013, 10:49
Gosh, it's been a long time since I did my schooling and what you say sounds quite crazy. Only 4 hours of school in Grade 2, seriously?
Yes, some schools can practise second shift/sessions, however, I've always assumed it's supposed to be for a certain number of grades. For example, we had it when I was in Grade 5, because, somehow, at this point there would be too many kids and too many grades to accomodate them all in one building. But then we'd stay in until 5 or 5:30pm, I think.
The school I worked at between 1998 and 2001 never did second shifts. However, P.1 students would go home around noon, the same happened in our school when I was a child. As a P.1 student, it was quite normal to spend 4-5 hours at school, at least for your first 6 months. We had arts and PE lessons too. History? I thought it should only come in P.5 at the earliest!

I don't remember how my parents dealt my my second shift when I was in Grade 5...I believe my granddad was summoned to help.
For those who start school in the morning and are free by 12 noon or 1 pm, there'd normally be something that's called "продлёнка" or "группы продлённого дня", something akin to daycare. Students whose parents were working and who did not have a grandparent or another relative to pick them up, would stay behind in those daycare groups, usually doing their homework or attending extra classes (interest or remedial).

Things must have changed greatly...

natlee
03-09-2013, 11:19
Got a second grader. 5 classes towards the end of last year, 5 and 6 (few times a week) this year. So 9-3, to be safe... 12 sounds way too weird!

krasotochka
03-09-2013, 11:34
The majority of Russian schools do not have a second shift and, in particular, lyceums and gymnasiums never have a second shift, you will only ever find them in the ''bog standard'' schools.


I am sorry, back to my school years it was exactly how all the schools operated - two shifts (for elder children). The only thing which is rather strange to me - usually kids who went to 3 first grades didn't have to do the second shift and had all their lessons in one classroom for the 3 first years in the school.

krasotochka
03-09-2013, 11:41
Things must have changed greatly...

To me it sounds like kids become more dependable. I remember going back from my school without "day care" by myself already when I was at the 4th grade (10 years old). And I remember having lessons till about noon - 12.30. But on another hand, for me it is surprising that parents expect they young kids to actually study more than 4-5 hours a day. We did study 4-5 hours, but then there was a homework to do.

VicY
03-09-2013, 12:05
To me it sounds like kids become more dependable. I remember going back from my school without "day care" by myself already when I was at the 4th grade (10 years old). And I remember having lessons till about noon - 12.30. But on another hand, for me it is surprising that parents expect they young kids to actually study more than 4-5 hours a day. We did study 4-5 hours, but then there was a homework to do.

Krasotochka, I agree completely. But those were better, safer days I think. I think you could expect a 12-year old to walk home all by themselves, if they live close by, but if they have to travel, I'd be a tad bit worried nowadays.

In my case, my mum was always paranoid about me and my brother, so even when I was 12, she'd ask my graddad to pick me up :D Oh well...it wasn't just me but also my brother who was 8 at the time but still...

And yes, 4-5 hours a day is more than enough for a 1st or 2nd grader.

Hans.KK
03-09-2013, 12:19
There may be something new in the schools now that make it even more strange, they are going to give the children more lessons in some subject (was it physical exercise?) and for the small children it will make there school-day to long, so because of this demand for more lessons the small children must now go to school on Saturday (just like the older children do).

Well I did not take that much attention to this our child is out of that scope, but there was some strange news about the time children have to go to school, not all parents was happy about it.

Alan65
03-09-2013, 23:24
Krasotochka, I agree completely. But those were better, safer days I think. I think you could expect a 12-year old to walk home all by themselves, if they live close by, but if they have to travel, I'd be a tad bit worried nowadays.

In my case, my mum was always paranoid about me and my brother, so even when I was 12, she'd ask my graddad to pick me up :D Oh well...it wasn't just me but also my brother who was 8 at the time but still...

And yes, 4-5 hours a day is more than enough for a 1st or 2nd grader.

VicY...it sounds like you are still in remedial clase fro colouring in, is that why you like colouring in the placemats :D

Anyway, she starts English tomorrow, looks like I may have a new job :D ...and on that basis I was just going to use elementary headway...my view is if they can do it they can do it and I am not interested in filling her head with grammar etc, any English teacher have a view or recommendations?

It will simply be listen, repeat, read, answer the question, ask the question etc...grammar can come later.

Suuryaa
03-09-2013, 23:53
VicY...it sounds like you are still in remedial clase fro colouring in, is that why you like colouring in the placemats :D

Anyway, she starts English tomorrow, looks like I may have a new job :D ...and on that basis I was just going to use elementary headway...my view is if they can do it they can do it and I am not interested in filling her head with grammar etc, any English teacher have a view or recommendations?

It will simply be listen, repeat, read, answer the question, ask the question etc...grammar can come later.

Headway may be not interesting for a child of this age. There are lots of books for this age group. I used to work with Happy Street. You can even choose something that suits her character. http://elt.oup.com/cat/courses/young_learners/?cc=gb&selLanguage=en&mode=hub

There are other publishers too, like Longman, Cambridge.

Alan65
03-09-2013, 23:57
Headway may be not interesting for a child of this age. There are lots of books for this age group. I used to work with Happy Street. You can even choose something that suits her character. http://elt.oup.com/cat/courses/young_learners/?cc=gb&selLanguage=en&mode=hub

There are other publishers too, like Longman, Cambridge.

Suu....you are a star, I may even have a new career :D

yakspeare
04-09-2013, 06:47
I had a lot of success with family and friends series by oxford on kids from 4 to 11. Really amazing results.

In krasnodar most of my students had to do split classes, swapping the time each year. Babushkas are vital in such situations.

Suuryaa
04-09-2013, 07:05
Suu....you are a star, I may even have a new career :D

Sure ;). You can also teach Russian to expats.

Alan65
04-09-2013, 10:03
I had a lot of success with family and friends series by oxford on kids from 4 to 11. Really amazing results.

In krasnodar most of my students had to do split classes, swapping the time each year. Babushkas are vital in such situations.

Yaks...Had a look at this series

Family and Friends: 2: Class Book and MultiROM Pack: Amazon.co.uk: Naomi Simmons: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lCPD5lhhL.@@AMEPARAM@@51lCPD5lhhL

and I see this

"Family and Friends: 2: Class Book and MultiROM Pack [French] [Paperback]"

Do these books have instruction in native language...i.e. French, Russian, German etc, I can see myself buying a book with French instructions :D

natlee
04-09-2013, 10:28
Mine starts English today as well. She can speak though, but tends to forget things without the practice. Knows the alphabet, can read some of the words but not brilliantly. I can only imagine what they will teach her at a Russian school (one of the top schools here, but when it comes to English...) especially that they teach British English :p and I've met the head of the dept of English who speaks a lot worse than my teachers did over 20 years ago.. She seemed proud she could tell a Brit from an American, God.. I've also signed her up for a class with a native (an American so far, but we may have to switch, and some of the teachers are Brits, cry! :D) after school, but they will mostly speak and play... I kinda worry about her writing/reading, and just don't have the time at the moment :(

Alan65
04-09-2013, 10:44
Mine starts English today as well. She can speak though, but tends to forget things without the practice. Knows the alphabet, can read some of the words but not brilliantly. I can only imagine what they will teach her at a Russian school (one of the top schools here, but when it comes to English...) especially that they teach British English :p and I've met the head of the dept of English who speaks a lot worse than my teachers did over 20 years ago.. She seemed proud she could tell a Brit from an American, God.. I've also signed her up for a class with a native (an American so far, but we may have to switch, and some of the teachers are Brits, cry! :D) after school, but they will mostly speak and play... I kinda worry about her writing/reading, and just don't have the time at the moment :(

I am thinking the same...what rubbish will they try to teach her, I have visions of an adapted KGB book from 40 years ago with overbearing grammar :D

The series Yaks mentioned has online resources that can be found here if it is of any use.

http://elt.oup.com/student/familyandfriends/level01/?cc=gb&selLanguage=en

yakspeare
04-09-2013, 12:36
Really no idea about the er French lol. 100% in English. They are good because they have interesting dialogues that are topical and so kids learn phrases and sentences rather than just words. Plus there are cds and flashcards and big posters of the dialogues.

VicY
04-09-2013, 15:04
VicY...it sounds like you are still in remedial clase fro colouring in, is that why you like colouring in the placemats :D

Anyway, she starts English tomorrow, looks like I may have a new job :D ...and on that basis I was just going to use elementary headway...my view is if they can do it they can do it and I am not interested in filling her head with grammar etc, any English teacher have a view or recommendations?

It will simply be listen, repeat, read, answer the question, ask the question etc...grammar can come later.

Alan, you'd better think of other ways to take the mickey out of me, mate :p The joke's getting thin...
I haven't done any colouring in with my kids YET. But sure it's coming and very soon too!

I have no idea what English texbooks are on sale in Russia now, but when I taught privately - about 7 years ago - I used WOW (Window on the World) which was a good way to get a child to speak about interesting things in simple English. I don't know if they still sell those textbooks though.

Here in Hong Kong I hardly ever had to look into English textbooks for children because most of the materials used in government and aided schools are developed by the EDB's NET Section.

VicY
04-09-2013, 15:09
Mine starts English today as well. She can speak though, but tends to forget things without the practice. Knows the alphabet, can read some of the words but not brilliantly. I can only imagine what they will teach her at a Russian school (one of the top schools here, but when it comes to English...) especially that they teach British English :p and I've met the head of the dept of English who speaks a lot worse than my teachers did over 20 years ago.. She seemed proud she could tell a Brit from an American, God.. I've also signed her up for a class with a native (an American so far, but we may have to switch, and some of the teachers are Brits, cry! :D) after school, but they will mostly speak and play... I kinda worry about her writing/reading, and just don't have the time at the moment :(

If you think your school's English teachers are below the mark, why worry that they will teach her British English that you so much hate? :punk: It'd imagine the English taught will be neither British, nor American. Just as it was in my time...However, looking back on it, I am grateful because when I grew up, I made my own choice as to which variety of English I wanted to pursue.

You'd not want me to be your daughter's teacher, because, granted, I'd teach her BRITISH ENGLISH :evilgrin:

VicY
04-09-2013, 15:13
I am thinking the same...what rubbish will they try to teach her, I have visions of an adapted KGB book from 40 years ago with overbearing grammar :D



Yeah, sure...Yet, somehow, that system managed to produce people like Natlee, RL, penka and myself. :p Not too bad for a system allegedly based on a "KGB adapted book with overbearing grammar". ;)

Alan65
04-09-2013, 15:15
Yeah, sure...Yet, somehow, that system managed to produce people like Natlee, RL, penka and myself. :p Not too bad for a system allegedly based on a "KGB adapted book with overbearing grammar". ;)

I rest my case :D

Sana
04-09-2013, 17:37
Yeah, sure...Yet, somehow, that system managed to produce people like Natlee, RL, penka and myself. :p Not too bad for a system allegedly based on a "KGB adapted book with overbearing grammar". ;)

HAHA Do not make people laugh !

Your "British" English leaves much to be desired.... :(((

Penka the tramp usually uses an Internet translation tool to answer these posts. Somebody has already mentioned here about her inability to express her thoughts properly.

natlee
04-09-2013, 17:44
HAHA Do not make people laugh !

Your "British" English leaves much to be desired.... :(((

Penka the tramp usually uses an Internet translation tool to answer these posts. Somebody has already mentioned here about her inability to express her thoughts properly. Uh huh, and what insults have you saved for me? :p

yakspeare
04-09-2013, 17:44
Penka the tramp? That is very harsh and not a classy thing to say about her.

Disappointing.

VicY
04-09-2013, 17:47
HAHA Do not make people laugh !

Your "British" English leaves much to be desired.... :(((

Penka the tramp usually uses an Internet translation tool to answer these posts. Somebody has already mentioned here about her inability to express her thoughts properly.

Nutcase. :punk:
I suggest you stop smoking weed...

Sana
04-09-2013, 17:48
Penka the tramp? That is very harsh and not a classy thing to say about her.

Disappointing.

It describes her insults towards others here. Only tramps and drunkards can sound that insulting ...

Sana
04-09-2013, 17:50
Uh huh, and what insults have you saved for me? :p

I haven't heard a single insult from you yet... I find your English really good, and always find your posts interesting to read.

Alan65
04-09-2013, 17:52
It describes her insults towards others here. Only tramps and drunkards can sound that insulting ...

If you are as wild in bed as your are with insults...I think I must be missing something :D

natlee
04-09-2013, 17:54
If you think your school's English teachers are below the mark, why worry that they will teach her British English that you so much hate? :punk: It'd imagine the English taught will be neither British, nor American. Just as it was in my time... Well the teacher was sick today (huge surprise ;) ) so no clue yet what she's like! I'm not awfully worried (and btw I eventually went to a school majoring in English, and my 'group' was actually quite lucky with the teacher!) but the grammar *will be* British, so it could potentially create a bit of an issue with my checking her homework (I prolly remember most of the English grammar rules, but I haven't seen any since... *then*! :D) and the afterschool class (and before you say it :p despite my not wanting a Brit for a teacher we may not have a choice as we'll be picking the day/time that suits our schedule rather than the teacher him/herself) Shouldn't be much of an issue, but can get confusing for the little one, and she already has so much on her plate with the damn school... we'll just have to wait and see! :)

natlee
04-09-2013, 17:58
I haven't heard a single insult from you yet... I find your English really good, and always find your posts interesting to read. :D Well thank you :shame: ;)

Sana
04-09-2013, 18:03
If you are as wild in bed as your are with insults...I think I must be missing something :D

I only tell the truth all the time. Maybe I should not. But you know, the truth is better.

There have been only two people who have been very insulting to me on this site all the time since I registered, and I do promise I will always sound even more insulting toward them, that will be my favorite pass time from now on.

Alan65
04-09-2013, 18:19
Well the teacher was sick today (huge surprise ;) ) so no clue yet what she's like! I'm not awfully worried (and btw I eventually went to a school majoring in English, and my 'group' was actually quite lucky with the teacher!) but the grammar *will be* British, so it could potentially create a bit of an issue with my checking her homework (I prolly remember most of the English grammar rules, but I haven't seen any since... *then*! :D) and the afterschool class (and before you say it :p despite my not wanting a Brit for a teacher we may not have a choice as we'll be picking the day/time that suits our schedule rather than the teacher him/herself) Shouldn't be much of an issue, but can get confusing for the little one, and she already has so much on her plate with the damn school... we'll just have to wait and see! :)

Personally I think children that are learning a second language should not be subjected to grammar rules of the second language, they should learn their own grammar rules first and then make any applications as and when required.

People al over the world have been communicating for millenia without grammar rules, the Chinese communicate with little or no grammar...the primary focus should be on communication by listenening, speaking and reading....not a bunch of rules.

yakspeare
04-09-2013, 19:38
I wouldn't say they are the same but grammar rules of BrE and AmE are very similar-Americans use slightly less perfect tenses. Vocab it is between 20-50 common words that are different that you really need to know. Rest not that important and often subject to regional variations. Then a dozen words the English have a "u" in that Ameticans drop plus center/centre and meter/metre and you are almost there. Not really that hard.

natlee
04-09-2013, 19:50
I wouldn't say they are the same but grammar rules of BrE and AmE are very similar-Americans use slightly less perfect tenses. Vocab it is between 20-50 common words that are different that you really need to know. Rest not that important and often subject to regional variations. Then a dozen words the English have a "u" in that Ameticans drop plus center/centre and meter/metre and you are almost there. Not really that hard. Theater/theatre... "z" vs "s"..

Alan65
04-09-2013, 20:31
I wouldn't say they are the same but grammar rules of BrE and AmE are very similar-Americans use slightly less perfect tenses. Vocab it is between 20-50 common words that are different that you really need to know. Rest not that important and often subject to regional variations. Then a dozen words the English have a "u" in that Ameticans drop plus center/centre and meter/metre and you are almost there. Not really that hard.

Yaks....I am prepared to wager 100 that 95% of the worlds population communicate with little or no grammar..

grammar is simply something that keeps teachers employed.

I will even give you odds of 1:10....and that goes to any language teacher.

Sana
04-09-2013, 22:29
Yaks....I am prepared to wager 100 that 95% of the worlds population communicate with little or no grammar..

grammar is simply something that keeps teachers employed.

I will even give you odds of 1:10....and that goes to any language teacher.

I would argue though. It would not be possible to express one's thoughts correctly without grammar rules. If we did not use grammar in English, it would be a real mess. I do make grammar mistakes and I fight for words at times when I speak a foreign language because I am not a native speaker. Moreover, I will always have a thick Russian accent while speaking English. But it is OK, I am not bilingual, though one British friend of mine once said I was bilingual and I got really surprised. In my opinion, accents and lack of proper vocabulary are not a serious problem. But what usually seriously irritates me is when one writes or speaks a language without grammar at all. Even I (being not a native speaker of English) often get really annoyed reading grammatically incorrect phrases, and in very many cases, it simply gets hard to understand such texts.

Alan65
04-09-2013, 23:28
I would argue though. It would not be possible to express one's thoughts correctly without grammar rules. If we did not use grammar in English, it would be a real mess. I do make grammar mistakes and I fight for words at times when I speak a foreign language because I am not a native speaker. Moreover, I will always have a thick Russian accent while speaking English. But it is OK, I am not bilingual, though one British friend of mine once said I was bilingual and I got really surprised. In my opinion, accents and lack of proper vocabulary are not a serious problem. But what usually seriously irritates me is when one writes or speaks a language without grammar at all. Even I (being not a native speaker of English) often get really annoyed reading grammatically incorrect phrases, and in very many cases, it simply gets hard to understand such texts.

Bingo...I have a taker for my bet.

My bet is simple, it is that more than 95% of the worlds 8 billion plus population communicate without any knowledge of grammar, hence grammar is not neccesary to communicate.

I did not mention Russian, I did not mention English or any other European language, I simply said communicate.

Do you still want to take this bet or do you want me to increase the odds in your favour....or any other teachers favour as that goes.

The odds 1 to 10, my 100 pounds to your 10, the easiest 10 i will ever earn in my life.

Until I started taking Russian lessons i could not have told you what and adjective. let alone a past present participle (if that exists) or a gerund etc was.... but I have been communicating all of my life.

xSnoofovich
05-09-2013, 02:14
Bingo...I have a taker for my bet.
hence grammar is not neccesary to communicate.



agree? i is sometimes thinking no. what? to yes say, i meaning no. communicate? today people understand little. but, little understand people. general in, really one no anything to say. proven? my point.

or....

check this out -

http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail43.html

yakspeare
05-09-2013, 02:28
Theater/theatre... "z" vs "s"..

I covered theatre/theater with metre and centre. Yes I forgot z vs s. Australians use both :)

Alan65
05-09-2013, 10:25
agree? i is sometimes thinking no. what? to yes say, i meaning no. communicate? today people understand little. but, little understand people. general in, really one no anything to say. proven? my point.

or....

check this out -

http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail43.html

Show me a child on this planet that has learnt grammar before learning to speak, as I said, over 95% of the worlds population communicate with little or no knowledge of grammar.

Ask yourself a simple question. When did grammar rules come into existence and how did people get by before that.

tonytony
05-09-2013, 11:06
Show me a child on this planet that has learnt grammar before learning to speak, as I said, over 95% of the worlds population communicate with little or no knowledge of grammar.

Ask yourself a simple question. When did grammar rules come into existence and how did people get by before that.

No, of course children don't learn grammar BEFORE they learn to speak. They learn grammar at the same time as they learn to speak.

As a child learns to speak they will absorb the grammar rules at the same time. Young children learn the difference between I/me/my/mine without learning the rules from a book. But this is still grammar that they are learning and, eventually, mastering.



over 95% of the worlds population communicate with little or no knowledge of grammar.

I believe that you are wrong on this point for the reason I mention above. Although people may not be able to articulate what a particular grammar rule might be they are still aware of it and able to use it.

Take for example the phrase:-

''There are much fish in the sea''

To any native English speaker, the moment you hear or read the above you immediately know that it's wrong. You may not be able to articulate the particular grammar rule, most people would probably just say that it ''sounds wrong'', but you are aware that it's not correct.

So, even though you cannot consciously articulate the particular grammar rule you are still aware of it and use it, as breaking that rule makes the phrase ''sound wrong''.

By the way, most native speakers cannot articulate the rules on when to use many/much.




Ask yourself a simple question. When did grammar rules come into existence and how did people get by before that.

Probably very early on in the development of speech. When very primitive, illiterate groups and tribes have been studied they have often been found to have quite complex grammar rules.

xSnoofovich
05-09-2013, 13:48
i support you in your endeavor. i think the best way for kids to learn a language is to just jump in and start doing it.

prob, she will start to learn even faster once she actually starts writing in it. so, i guess that should be part of the program?

let me also ask you this-

why use ESL books? why not just buy kids books and use something called active reading?

with that said, i guess you are in the UK? and she is in St Pete?

VicY
05-09-2013, 14:08
Well the teacher was sick today (huge surprise ;) ) so no clue yet what she's like! I'm not awfully worried (and btw I eventually went to a school majoring in English, and my 'group' was actually quite lucky with the teacher!) but the grammar *will be* British,

I think you're exaggerating here...There really isn't much to English grammar that could be called exclusively British ;) I'm sure you'll be able to help out your daughter just fine. Moreover, grammar is something I'd worry about a bit later!

Alan65
05-09-2013, 14:24
i support you in your endeavor. i think the best way for kids to learn a language is to just jump in and start doing it.

let me ask you this-

why use ESL? why not just buy kids books and use something called active reading?

with that said, i guess you are in the UK? and she is in St Pete?

We do every night via Skype and all I use is what you call active reading

The reason for me taking this view is I read Nats post about be frightened about the grammar her little one will be using, if it will be American or British WTF...I am guessing her little one is about 7 years old.

I simply feel that there is an unnecessary industry created around grammar, not just with the teaching of English but also manay languages....I looked at the Terry Waite book of Russian Grammar, it is padded out with rubbish, the school I am at has it as "A Grammar Supplement"

I have lost count of the amount of times I hear people say "my grammar is good, I understand the technical side but I can not speak very well"

I will put myself into that category with Russian, I can tell you what the perfective, imperative plural of a verb is as typically most of the instructions are written in that form..infact I have rules for declension, conjugation etc coming out of my arse, can I hold a conversation...NO.

Someone mentioned the success stories of Russians that post on here..Vicy, Natlee etc ...well why only look at the success stories, lets look at the failures.

The class I attend for Russian started off with 6 students, of these 6, 4 have an obvious reason to learn the language, the other 2 have never been to Russia and have no plans to visit Russia, they simply like studying languages, can tell me everything about grammar, how words have a latin origin etc....3 of the 6 with an obvious reson no longer attend...why?

What is the drop out rate of Russian students learning English and why?

I am sure the answer will come back along the lines of "I just want to speak"

What I often hear from language teachers is "You must learn grammar to be able to progress to the next level...lets take a different angle on that "If the student is not learning to speak, they will not be interested in the next level"


Overall I feel the whole language delivery mechanism is flawed, the books are back to front, rather than start with words, phrases, sentences stories etc, turn it around, start with the stories, then start to pick up the details, what words are not known, why such words endings are different etc.....that is the way music is effectively taught, try to play the whole song, look at what is not workig and gradually put it right, this way the person is actually playing an instrument rather than being taught the circle of 5ths, chord progressions etc..in music I met many people that loved the technical side but could not play an instrument well.

So, going back to the reson for this...why is a mother worried about whether her child will be learning British or English grammar and why is it so important and appearing to take precedence?

I have yet to hear a teacher say listening is important., in my view it is the most important part, even though the Russian books I use have levels of instruction way about the level of tuition at least they start with listen, repeat, read.

VicY
05-09-2013, 15:23
Alan, I won't go into a debate here as I've got more important things on my hands and am about to run off...

Although I agree with you on many points, I still believe that you can't completely write off grammar. Sure, a 7-year old doesn't really need it but the makings of a grammar rule have to be there, implicitly, so that when the child grows up and progresses in whatever language they are learning, they will be able to perfect it to the point where both their speaking/listening AND syntactic skills will be top-notch. :10806: Not every teacher or school understands or reinforces it though. That's the problem.

Look at Tony's post above, I think he put it remarkably well! :thumbsup:

yakspeare
05-09-2013, 15:36
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151102043720642&l=3511407684906089578

This is a video of one of my students, who I taught from the age of 5 until she was 7.
Communicative approach using the books I mentioned.

natlee
05-09-2013, 16:29
I'm sure you'll be able to help out your daughter just fine. Only cause I'm brilliant! :p

Alan65
05-09-2013, 16:31
Only cause I'm brilliant! :p

Can your daughter swim yet :D

natlee
05-09-2013, 16:33
Can your daughter swim yet :D Good one! :D And no, but I've saved the links and will look for the stuff here soon - problem is, it'll be a while before we get another chance to use any of it, sob! We'll get there though ;)

Alan65
08-09-2013, 01:23
Good one! :D And no, but I've saved the links and will look for the stuff here soon - problem is, it'll be a while before we get another chance to use any of it, sob! We'll get there though ;)

Today at school my Russian teacher told me I am not afraid to speak...but do I make a few mistakes )))....but I do get my thoughts across and that is better than not speaking at all and trying being gramatically correct....the others in the class look to be grammaticaly correct all of the time.

On that note I am going to start writing in the Russian section, make horrendous f()ck ups and hope you lot can correct me....its all about confidence and not being frightened of making mistakes)))

See you in the Russian section )))

BTW the little one is killing English ))

Alan65
12-09-2013, 00:22
Vicy...lets start a debate here.

Lets look at Russian cases and the prespositional case:...here are a list of Russian prepositions

без
вдоль
вместо
возле
вокруг
для
до
из
из-за
кроме
мимо
напротив
насчет
неделеко от
около
от


etc

Now....why are these prespositions not used in the prepositional case but more in the genative case...I am having grammar rammed into me and this rule does not make sense from what I am being taught.

If you/or anyone else can give me examples of phrases/sentences using the above prespositions in the prespositional case I would love to see them.

Russian Lad
12-09-2013, 00:37
Yeah, you better forget the meaning of preposition in this case.:) Basically, the best way to learn is to memorize certain phrases for different cases, then gradually you will see a certain pattern. Prepositional case mainly deals with prepositions о/об and в, and the case questions are в ком? в чем? о ком? о чем?
The ones that you listed, they all apply to the genitive case - кого? чего? Example - Без кого? Без меня. Без чего? Без сумки.
Quite many Russians are bad at identifying cases but they still speak correctly, so you have to bear that in mind as well - first comes the speaking ability and only then the theory.

Alan65
12-09-2013, 00:40
Yeah, you better forget the meaning of preposition in this case.:) Basically, the best way to learn is to memorize certain phrases for different cases, then gradually you will see a certain pattern. Prepositional case mainly deals with prepositions о/об and в, and the case questions are в ком? в чем? о ком? о чем?

Cheers RL...perhaps I will now start to call it the genatalia case....AKA, a load of old bollocks :D

That bollocks threw me down a rabbit hole :D

Whenever I read/speak something I just look for AGREEMENT and logic, this was a logic that did not work...i.e Prepositions working in the prepositional case. :D

Russian Lad
12-09-2013, 00:47
I guess it is called prepositional only because those prepositions are used in the questions that cover this case. You used to have cases in the old English as well, then they disappeared gradually.:) There is only the possessive case in English ('s), but some scholars believe it is not even a case.:) German was a pain in the ass for me as well due to this reason. Well, the only solution is to memorize some phrases and to relate them to certain situations, then you will be able to feel the language structure better and use other combinations. Takes time.:)
An example of Old English (9th-10th century): Eall t beacen ws begoten mid golde;gimmas stodon fgere t foldan sceatum, swylce r fife wron uppe on m eaxlegespanne. :)
And it means: The entire symbol was covered with gold; beautiful gems stood on the earth's surface, likewise there were five up on the crossbeam.
English belongs to the German group actually, German developed quite differently, they still have four cases.

Alan65
12-09-2013, 00:54
I guess it is called prepositional only because those prepositions are used in the questions that cover this case. You used to have cases in the old English as well, then they disappeared gradually.:) There is only the possessive case in English ('s), but some scholars believe it is not even a case.:)

This is about Russian grammar...not English grammar, I now know that the genative should really be called the prepositional as that is where many prepostions are used .....perhaps the prepositional should just be called the about, on or in case :D

I am here to help you all of the time :D

RL...I am crying, after so many people saying it is all about grammar, you rock up and say....um, it does not work....supreme.

Russian Lad
12-09-2013, 00:59
RL...I am crying, after so many people saying it is all about grammar, you rock up and say....um, it does not work....supreme.

Well, it does work, but not as directly as some believe - too many physical and psychological mechanisms are involved/engaged at the same time. The best analogy I can come up with - it is one thing to know how the computer is made, quite another - to make it, yet quite another - to operate it effectively. Most people using their native language are just effective computer operators.
But beware, before we know it, Yakspeare may show up and tell you he would make you completely fluent in 150-200 hours...:)

Alan65
12-09-2013, 01:05
Well, it does work, but not as directly as some believe. The best analogy I can come up with - it is one thing to know how the computer is made, quite another - to make it, yet quite another - to operate it effectively.

Can you give me indirect examples using the prepositions above.

This is not a points scoring gig, I have been taking Russian apart simply with 6 highlighters.....yellow - nominative, purple - prepositional, green - genative, red - accusative, , blue - dative, orange - instrumental....all I do is look for signposts and agreements in the sentences....it is a method that has workds so far, when I read I associate colours etc and I understand the why, word endings etc.....how certain verbs work with certain cases etc.

All I am trying to do is create a system.

Russian Lad
12-09-2013, 01:10
Can you give me indirect examples using the prepositions above.

This is not a points scoring gig, I have been taking Russian apart simply with 6 highlighters.....yellow - nominative, purple - prepositional, green - genative, red - accusative, , blue - dative, orange - instrumental....all I do is look for signposts and agreements in the sentences....it is a method that has workds so far, when I read I associate colours etc and I understand the why, word endings etc.....how certain verbs work with certain cases etc.

Yes, highlighting them with colors seems to be a good method. It is genitive, not genative though. All prepositions that you listed are basically for the genitive case.

без (кого?) меня - without me
вдоль (чего?) дороги - along the road
вместо тебя - instead of you
возле дома - beside the house
вокруг стены - around the wall
для друга - for a (the) friend
до завтра - till tomorrow
из квартиры - from the apartment
из-за жены - because of the wife
кроме денег - besides money
мимо цели - off the mark
напротив стола - opposite to the table
насчет договора - about the agreement
недалеко от дворца - close to the palace
около комнаты - beside the room
от товарища - from a friend

These prepositions can also have other meanings, this is just examples. That's why it is important to memorize the meaning in a certain context. Context is the king and the queen and the whole royal family.:) That's what I meant by indirect I guess.

VicY
12-09-2013, 04:59
Yes, what RL has written.

And I never said it's "all about grammar", by the way :p

Alan65
12-09-2013, 10:14
Yes, highlighting them with colors seems to be a good method. It is genitive, not genative though. All prepositions that you listed are basically for the genitive case.

без (кого?) меня - without me
вдоль (чего?) дороги - along the road
вместо тебя - instead of you
возле дома - beside the house
вокруг стены - around the wall
для друга - for a (the) friend
до завтра - till tomorrow
из квартиры - from the apartment
из-за жены - because of the wife
кроме денег - besides money
мимо цели - off the mark
напротив стола - opposite to the table
насчет договора - about the agreement
недалеко от дворца - close to the palace
около комнаты - beside the room
от товарища - from a friend

These prepositions can also have other meanings, this is just examples. That's why it is important to memorize the meaning in a certain context. Context is the king and the queen and the whole royal family.:) That's what I meant by indirect I guess.

Cheers RL

High lighting works a treat, it is a muscial technique, we got taught that even before trying to play a new song, listen to the song, look for the patterns, highlight them, there will be residual words patterns etc, then when you play audio and speak along with it the grammar is learnt by colours, you only need to reference two tables, one that has the changes in pronouns and one with word endings :D

The examples you use are very similar to examples I thought would in in the prepositional eg

Where did you walk
вдоль (чего?) дороги - along the road

Where did you take those photos
недалеко от дворца - close to the palace


Would these not be prepositional

VicY
12-09-2013, 11:35
So Alan, I am confused now: are you a musician or an engineer????

Alan65
12-09-2013, 11:55
So Alan, I am confused now: are you a musician or an engineer????

Trained as an engineer, work as a project manager but have also studied music and computer science.

VicY
12-09-2013, 18:17
Trained as an engineer, work as a project manager but have also studied music and computer science.

What, music and computer science at the same time?

Which instrument(s) do you play?

Alan65
12-09-2013, 18:45
What, music and computer science at the same time?

Which instrument(s) do you play?

Not at the same time.

Guitar and piano but I only went to level 5, it was actually a music tech course, sequecing sampling etc, I only did piano as it is a primary input device for Midi.

Alan65
01-10-2013, 00:13
Well, less than a month after the original post this is where we stand and for some reason part of it may be worrying.

The first week was a nightmare, sleeping in till all hours, staying up late etc.

However, and this is what I think may be the worrying part, after an initial kick off with English lessons, she now only wants to have lessons in English.

What do I mean by this, simples:

Lets take maths, she was getting 1 out of 5 for making silly mistakes with basic arithmetic, after a few days with snakes and ladders, playing both up and down and having to add/subtract, plus a few little techniques, she is adding/subtracting 5 figure numbers in both Russian and English.

Russian language: I have introduced her to verbs, adjectives etc in English, now whenever I ask a question in Russian, I only get an answer back in English which includes that is the verb, that is the adjective etc, she can not do that in Russian.

All in all it seems that she is responding more to English, she is starting to answer teachers back in English, for instance, in maths when asked what is 17 + 15 she simply answers 32 in English :D ....she is doing the same in Russian lessons, just answering back in English :D

Should I be worried :D

VicY
02-10-2013, 20:15
Should I be worried :D

I don't think so...She still has the potential of growing up as a bilingual, and such kids normally go through confusion as they are exposed to more than one language on a daily basis. I witness kids like this every day and it is believed to be normal ;) Give her some time...

BabyFirefly
02-10-2013, 20:40
I don't think so...She still has the potential of growing up as a bilingual, and such kids normally go through confusion as they are exposed to more than one language on a daily basis. I witness kids like this every day and it is believed to be normal ;) Give her some time...

Yes. I went through that as a child. Eventually both languages will "catch up" with each other in her mind.