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penka
22-08-2013, 19:06
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/american-dream-alive-well-canada-211401249.html

BabyFirefly
22-08-2013, 19:26
I'd love to live in Canada.

kachy0310
22-08-2013, 20:05
Please how does it work?

robertmf
22-08-2013, 21:13
I'd love to live in Canada.

:7525: With your thin PR blood, you'd freeze :cold:

BabyFirefly
22-08-2013, 23:44
I handled Moscow winters, I can do Canada. Actually hate the hot, humid heat here.

Jack17
23-08-2013, 03:01
What is Canada? A few cities along the American border and an infinite expanse of mosquitos in the summer and snow in the winter.

Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver are wonderful, bucolic cities; but they lack the excitement and dynamism of New York, San Francisco and Seattle.

So, immigrate to Canada, it's a nice place; in fact, it's one of the best places in the world. But if you want excitement, go to the US.

Russian Lad
23-08-2013, 04:20
What is that white fence in the picture there? Is it how the US-Canadian border looks like?:)

robertmf
23-08-2013, 04:58
What is that white fence in the picture there? Is it how the US-Canadian border looks like?:)

What white fence :question:

This is the border :Loco:

TolkoRaz
23-08-2013, 15:39
It looks better than the German Polish border!

Jack17
23-08-2013, 15:52
These look like your personal photos TR; do you spend a lot of time on the German-Polish border?

mrzuzzo
23-08-2013, 16:40
As soon as you cross the border from US to Canada, you realize how much superior of a country Canada is.

Ibanez
23-08-2013, 18:17
It looks better than the German Polish border!


Tolko, those are border guards?? :D

Jack17
23-08-2013, 19:04
As soon as you cross the border from US to Canada, you realize how much superior of a country Canada is.
Superior in what ways? Superior in terms of the calm repose that comes from a tiny population inhabiting a vast expanse of primal wilderness? You can have that in Alaska.

I've been to virtually every major Canadian city and the only one that is superior (in its own way) to anything in the US is Montreal - that's due to the French.

But if we're speaking of style, financial opportunity, education, medical care, and climate, then there's only one choice and that's the US. Secondly, though it's of no concern to anyone on this web site, there's little in the way of cultural activity in Canada in terms of theater, dance, or opera - it's all in the US. If you want a cultural life, you're better of in Moskva or SPB than anywhere in Canada.

TolkoRaz
23-08-2013, 21:35
Where is Lake Superior? :coffee:

mrzuzzo
24-08-2013, 11:41
Superior in what ways? Superior in terms of the calm repose that comes from a tiny population inhabiting a vast expanse of primal wilderness? You can have that in Alaska.

I've been to virtually every major Canadian city and the only one that is superior (in its own way) to anything in the US is Montreal - that's due to the French.

But if we're speaking of style, financial opportunity, education, medical care, and climate, then there's only one choice and that's the US. Secondly, though it's of no concern to anyone on this web site, there's little in the way of cultural activity in Canada in terms of theater, dance, or opera - it's all in the US. If you want a cultural life, you're better of in Moskva or SPB than anywhere in Canada.

LOL wut? I've travelled accross the Can-US border more times than I can count.

USA is a slum compared to Canada, and it's very obvious if you cross the border. For example, crossing from Niagara, or Detroit, or Buffalo into Canada is like crossing into utopia.

Your american dream rhetoric is limited to a select maybe 30% of the population, the other 70% lives paycheck to paycheck unable to afford the best health care that's supposed to be available to them. Not a problem in Canada.

Canada is so much better than the states in so many ways that I can probably write a book on it. Safety, stability, ecology, healthcare, etc etc etc

Realistically, Canada is just a better version of the US.

penka
24-08-2013, 12:21
LOL wut? I've travelled accross the Can-US border more times than I can count.

USA is a slum compared to Canada, and it's very obvious if you cross the border. For example, crossing from Niagara, or Detroit, or Buffalo into Canada is like crossing into utopia.

Your american dream rhetoric is limited to a select maybe 30% of the population, the other 70% lives paycheck to paycheck unable to afford the best health care that's supposed to be available to them. Not a problem in Canada.

Canada is so much better than the states in so many ways that I can probably write a book on it. Safety, stability, ecology, healthcare, etc etc etc

Realistically, Canada is just a better version of the US.


Zuz, I've heard quite a few Americans go to Canada to stock on the meds as the price is more wallet-friendly. Is that so?

Jack17
24-08-2013, 14:36
What cities in the US have you visited? You lived in Toronto and traveled across the border many time to Detroit and now you are an expert on the US?

Your comments make no sense, such as, "70% lives paycheck to paycheck." What, and half of Canadians live on a trust fund? Health care? Probably not bad, if you can get the operation you need under the Canadian triage system. The best hospitals and doctors in the world are in the US. When's the last time you heard of a Saudi Sheik going to Canada for medical care? With Obamacare, that system is now available to all Americans.

Your comments are as laughable as Penka and Yaks (who have never been to the US) agreeing with you.

You are a young braggadocio and I'm not going to get into a back and forth with you. America is, by virtually every standard, the greatest country in the world; that's why everyone loves to take shots at it. ISA, in terms of health care, education, finance, the arts, climate, natural beauty, and most importantly - the opportunity to make money, the US is tops. Case in point, why do nearly twice the number of Brits emigrate to the US over Canada? Canada is part of the Commonwealth, you share the same Head-of-State with the UK, and naturalization is much easier for Brits in Canada. Answer: education and the opportunity to make money are better in the US. Why don't the 11,000,000 undocumented Mexicans living in the US continue north to Canada?

No, you're not going to find a majority who are keen on the US from a among a group of expats choosing to live in Russia. Mine is a losing argument in this crowd. Because there are working class neighborhoods in most US cities (as if there are none in London, Paris or Moskva) then all America is a slum. New York is the worst city on the planet; yeah, if you spend your time in the Bronx or the Port Authority; yet, who visiting London spends their time in the East End?

I would just say to those who have not been to the US - come and see for yourself. If anyone would like an itinerary, I'd be happy to provide one. Continue north to Canada, there are beautiful cities there too; but you'll find Vancouver to be a little sleepy compared to Seattle, San Francisco or LA.

robertmf
24-08-2013, 15:14
Zuz, I've heard quite a few Americans go to Canada to stock on the meds as the price is more wallet-friendly. Is that so?


Mailorder.

yakspeare
24-08-2013, 15:17
Er I have been to the US.

But I rank the Australia, Canada and New Zealand (3 way tie), then the UK, then western Europe and THEN the US. You might have the best doctors, but you will pay through the nose for them and not what the average citizen experiences. It is like saying every Russian lives in a kremlin.

Our universal health care system is miles ahead of the US one. You might have the greatest universities in the world but it doesn't cost me to go to university here and can collect a whole set of degrees and post grad courses without hundreds of thousands of dollars. Our minimum wage is more than double yours and we don't rely on an army of illegal workers.

And we do this with a debt level per GDP a tiny fraction of the US, much lower unemployment and a society far more cohesive despite greater diversity.

robertmf
24-08-2013, 15:23
And we do this with a debt level per GDP a tiny fraction of the US, much lower unemployment and a society far more cohesive despite greater diversity.

Do you mean Australia :question:

MashaSashina
24-08-2013, 15:46
Gluten free fillet? Really?

robertmf
24-08-2013, 16:04
Gluten free fillet? Really?

Sure. No wheat in roo or camel.

penka
24-08-2013, 16:26
What cities in the US have you visited? You lived in Toronto and traveled across the border many time to Detroit and now you are an expert on the US?

Your comments make no sense, such as, "70% lives paycheck to paycheck." What, and half of Canadians live on a trust fund? Health care? Probably not bad, if you can get the operation you need under the Canadian triage system. The best hospitals and doctors in the world are in the US. When's the last time you heard of a Saudi Sheik going to Canada for medical care? With Obamacare, that system is now available to all Americans.

Your comments are as laughable as Penka and Yaks (who have never been to the US) agreeing with you.

You are a young braggadocio and I'm not going to get into a back and forth with you. America is, by virtually every standard, the greatest country in the world; that's why everyone loves to take shots at it. ISA, in terms of health care, education, finance, the arts, climate, natural beauty, and most importantly - the opportunity to make money, the US is tops. Case in point, why do nearly twice the number of Brits emigrate to the US over Canada? Canada is part of the Commonwealth, you share the same Head-of-State with the UK, and naturalization is much easier for Brits in Canada. Answer: education and the opportunity to make money are better in the US. Why don't the 11,000,000 undocumented Mexicans living in the US continue north to Canada?

No, you're not going to find a majority who are keen on the US from a among a group of expats choosing to live in Russia. Mine is a losing argument in this crowd. Because there are working class neighborhoods in most US cities (as if there are none in London, Paris or Moskva) then all America is a slum. New York is the worst city on the planet; yeah, if you spend your time in the Bronx or the Port Authority; yet, who visiting London spends their time in the East End?

I would just say to those who have not been to the US - come and see for yourself. If anyone would like an itinerary, I'd be happy to provide one. Continue north to Canada, there are beautiful cities there too; but you'll find Vancouver to be a little sleepy compared to Seattle, San Francisco or LA.


You should consider a career of a jester.

Indeed, I've never been to the States and am grateful for the information about the countries I know of by the media and friends' stories only. You find it wrong or just upset I didn't thank you?

mrzuzzo
24-08-2013, 17:58
What cities in the US have you visited? You lived in Toronto and traveled across the border many time to Detroit and now you are an expert on the US?

Your comments make no sense, such as, "70% lives paycheck to paycheck." What, and half of Canadians live on a trust fund? Health care? Probably not bad, if you can get the operation you need under the Canadian triage system. The best hospitals and doctors in the world are in the US. When's the last time you heard of a Saudi Sheik going to Canada for medical care? With Obamacare, that system is now available to all Americans.

Your comments are as laughable as Penka and Yaks (who have never been to the US) agreeing with you.

You are a young braggadocio and I'm not going to get into a back and forth with you. America is, by virtually every standard, the greatest country in the world; that's why everyone loves to take shots at it. ISA, in terms of health care, education, finance, the arts, climate, natural beauty, and most importantly - the opportunity to make money, the US is tops. Case in point, why do nearly twice the number of Brits emigrate to the US over Canada? Canada is part of the Commonwealth, you share the same Head-of-State with the UK, and naturalization is much easier for Brits in Canada. Answer: education and the opportunity to make money are better in the US. Why don't the 11,000,000 undocumented Mexicans living in the US continue north to Canada?

No, you're not going to find a majority who are keen on the US from a among a group of expats choosing to live in Russia. Mine is a losing argument in this crowd. Because there are working class neighborhoods in most US cities (as if there are none in London, Paris or Moskva) then all America is a slum. New York is the worst city on the planet; yeah, if you spend your time in the Bronx or the Port Authority; yet, who visiting London spends their time in the East End?

I would just say to those who have not been to the US - come and see for yourself. If anyone would like an itinerary, I'd be happy to provide one. Continue north to Canada, there are beautiful cities there too; but you'll find Vancouver to be a little sleepy compared to Seattle, San Francisco or LA.

You're either full of sh*t or living in your own fantasy world.

For the record, I am from Ottawa. I travel to the US very often - by car, by plane, by train. Both business and pleasure. I've been all over the US, both east and west coast. Last time was 2 months ago in Orlando. Next time will be next month (San Francisco).

Even in Orlando, I managed to drive into a sketchy neighborhood 15 minutes from downtown where I feared for my well being.

As for how people live - let me provide an example. I have never seen a gated community in Canada, there probably aren't any in existence because people feel safe and don't feel a social divide or need to separate themselves from the slums of society.

Canada's health care isn't the best, it's also not the worst, but I'll have you note that it's a public service meant to serve Canadians - not a commercial enterprise, which is why foreigners don't get health care in Canada.

America is the greatest country in the world? Really? The quality of life indexes tell a completely different story.

I've heard from people who visited New Orleans a few months ago that the city still hasn't been rebuilt from hurricane Katrina. USA is so great it can spend billions on rebuilding Afghanistan or Iraq but is apparently too busy "helping" other countries that it can't help its own citizens.

America is the greatest country in the world only to its privileged citizens. For many, America is hell on earth.

Get out of your little world, open your eyes, and see what's really happening around you.

celia
24-08-2013, 18:31
It's nice to read some praise of Canada (and the US) because I lived in England for a few years and people there loved to bad-mouth Americans and Canadians. Americans are fat and stupid yet wily, and Canadians are stupid, slow and not even wily (on the radio I once heard "we consider Canadians to be our country cousins"). Of course there is a grain of truth in most generalizations, but every country is complex and it takes time to see below the surface. There are many Americas and many Canadas (and many Russias).

Russian Lad
24-08-2013, 20:09
You are a young braggadocio

Hehehe


and most importantly - the opportunity to make money, the US is tops.

For me Internet is tops in this regard. I can live in any country, as a translator even.


I would just say to those who have not been to the US - come and see for yourself.

Jack, I think both of you have a point here. The US is all about inequality, just as Russia. It is great in its greatness, but it is also ugly in its ugliness. When I was in Alabama back in 1994, the person who was driving me around opened his glove compartment and loaded his pistol before entering some Afroamerican neighborhoods. Just in case, as he was putting it. I saw a lot of splendor and grandeur, but I also saw glaring poverty. On the other hand, I met a lot of great people, tasted a lot of great food, etc. That's what unites Russia and the US - the extremes and a lot of action. I guess not much, if anything, is ever happening in Canada or Australia, they are very rarely on the news. Things, both great and appalling happen more often in the US and Russia. That's why mrZuzzo is not living in Canada - he goes for the excitement, the business and the joie de vivre to our both countries, as you have noticed.:) Just my take on it.

Jack17
24-08-2013, 20:48
I also saw glaring poverty.

What passes for "glaring poverty" in America is equivalent to a normal 3 room Russian qvartira.

Forming an impression of America based on a year in a bible college in Alabama would be like me forming an opinion of Russia based on a year in Kirov - or, for that matter, a year living on Nevsky Prospect in SPB; both experiences would provide a very skewed view of the country as a whole.

The US is not a boutique country like NZ, OZ, Canada or Liechtenstein. It attracts large numbers from the entire world - 320,000,000 to be exact.
In fact, as wonderful as NZ and Canada are, more Brits emigrate to the US than to those two countries combined. Why? Opportunity.

Russian Lad
24-08-2013, 21:01
What passes for "glaring poverty" in America is equivalent to a normal 3 room Russian qvartira.

Forming an impression of America based on a year in a bible college in Alabama would be like me forming an opinion of Russia based on a year in Kirov - or, for that matter, a year living on Nevsky Prospect in SPB; both experiences would provide a very skewed view of the country as a whole.

Sure, my experience of living in the US was rather sketchy. Oh, well, even in Alabama I met many people who have never left Birmingham in their entire life, yet they believe they know all about the US. I did read a lot and study the language.:)
As to poverty, yes, the process to becoming poor or homeless is different in our countries, to some extent, but the result is pretty much the same. Your Detroit is akin to the Ukrainian Chernobil nowadays, for example. Or at least Pripyat.:) I have never been to Detroit, so correct me if I am wrong (well, I was in its airport for an hour while in transit actually:)).

Детройт - город-призрак - YouTube

Jack17
24-08-2013, 21:33
Er I have been to the US.

When, where and for how long?

Alan65
24-08-2013, 22:28
What passes for "glaring poverty" in America is equivalent to a normal 3 room Russian qvartira.

Forming an impression of America based on a year in a bible college in Alabama would be like me forming an opinion of Russia based on a year in Kirov - or, for that matter, a year living on Nevsky Prospect in SPB; both experiences would provide a very skewed view of the country as a whole.

The US is not a boutique country like NZ, OZ, Canada or Liechtenstein. It attracts large numbers from the entire world - 320,000,000 to be exact.
In fact, as wonderful as NZ and Canada are, more Brits emigrate to the US than to those two countries combined. Why? Opportunity.

As for all of the reasons you quote, I would also expect being only 5 - 6 hours away from the East Coast is a factor versus 24 hours to Oz or New Zealand.

I know many Brits that have gone to OZ/NZ but hated how far isolated both countries are and how bad teh local currency travels.

No explanation for Canada though, must be something to do with the French.

Jack17
24-08-2013, 22:47
No explanation for Canada though, must be something to do with the French.

Fair points Alan; but come on, you're a business man - where are there more jobs?

Sure, if I wanted to be surrounded by pristine cleanliness and a charming suburban environment, I'd live in Victoria British Columbia - but what job opportunities are there?

Come to think of it, I do live in a pristine suburban environment where the average temperature is 23c, not 12c and it's sunny, not rainy 10 months out of the year and there are boundless job opportunities.

mrzuzzo
25-08-2013, 00:32
Sure, if I wanted to be surrounded by pristine cleanliness and a charming suburban environment, I'd live in Victoria British Columbia - but what job opportunities are there?


Not less than in the US, the unemployment rate for anywhere in Canada is pretty low.

I'm lucky - I have a good education, great job, and a fair bit of luck. This means I can enjoy being in the top social sector (at least financially) in Russia, afford to live in a townhouse on the most expensive real estate in the country with 24/7 security and all amenities.

If I wasn't so lucky (most people aren't), I'd be in Canada even if I had a chance to be in the US. It's a no-brainer.

BabyFirefly
25-08-2013, 00:42
Jack, I think both of you have a point here. The US is all about inequality, just as Russia. It is great in its greatness, but it is also ugly in its ugliness. When I was in Alabama back in 1994, the person who was driving me around opened his glove compartment and loaded his pistol before entering some Afroamerican neighborhoods. Just in case, as he was putting it. I saw a lot of splendor and grandeur, but I also saw glaring poverty. On the other hand, I met a lot of great people, tasted a lot of great food, etc. That's what unites Russia and the US - the extremes and a lot of action. I guess not much, if anything, is ever happening in Canada or Australia, they are very rarely on the news. Things, both great and appalling happen more often in the US and Russia. That's why mrZuzzo is not living in Canada - he goes for the excitement, the business and the joie de vivre to our both countries, as you have noticed.:) Just my take on it.

You were in Alabama? No wonder you don't like the US.

Russian Lad
25-08-2013, 00:48
You were in Alabama? No wonder you don't like the US.

Lol, I enjoyed it there, a great place. Where did I say I don't like the US? You see, we are trying to attain some level of sophistication here, it is not as simple as I like this, period-I don't like this, period.:)

robertmf
25-08-2013, 01:49
You see, we are trying to attain some level of sophistication here, it is not as simple as I like this, period-I don't like this, period.:)

You're not going to find that in Alabama (http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/24/us/brain-eating-parasite-boy-dead/index.html?sr=fb082413brainparasite530p)

Were you the only Russian in the State ? How did you come to be in Alabama :question:
;)



:7534:

Russian Lad
25-08-2013, 02:02
How did you come to be in Alabama

I was a translator here at a church and the Americans who supervised it decided to make a pastor out of me.:) I was 19 back then, an ambitious teenager ready to conquer the world.:)

BabyFirefly
25-08-2013, 02:51
I was a translator here at a church and the Americans who supervised it decided to make a pastor out of me.:) I was 19 back then, an ambitious teenager ready to conquer the world.:)

Church? You? You've changed some.

Russian Lad
25-08-2013, 02:58
Church? You? You've changed some.

Well, people change.:)

robertmf
25-08-2013, 03:13
Well, people change.:)

:AngelPray: Bless you my son for you have made f&cking wise decision :Loco:

celia
25-08-2013, 04:50
Quoting Russian Lad: "Jack, I think both of you have a point here. The US is all about inequality, just as Russia. It is great in its greatness, but it is also ugly in its ugliness. When I was in Alabama back in 1994, the person who was driving me around opened his glove compartment and loaded his pistol before entering some Afroamerican neighborhoods. Just in case, as he was putting it. I saw a lot of splendor and grandeur, but I also saw glaring poverty. On the other hand, I met a lot of great people, tasted a lot of great food, etc. That's what unites Russia and the US - the extremes and a lot of action. I guess not much, if anything, is ever happening in Canada or Australia, they are very rarely on the news. Things, both great and appalling happen more often in the US and Russia. That's why mrZuzzo is not living in Canada - he goes for the excitement, the business and the joie de vivre to our both countries, as you have noticed. Just my take on it."

Very well said, RussianLad. I recall a middle-aged woman from California complaining that her purse was stolen from her car, and her major concern was that now her gun was gone. In New Orleans I was following a guidebook walk of gardens, and when I made a wrong turn I was suddenly in perhaps the worst neighbourhood I have ever seen. I saw things in Harlem that made my hair stand on end, but still that was not as bad as taking a tour of the Bronx - we didn't see anything amiss (except for men huddled on street corners walking away quickly when our shiny new van appeared, because only the police had shiny new vans) but our guide spoke about growing up in the Bronx and his story was harrowing. In Canada people don't normally have weapons and we don't have slums. I haven't been to that many places in Canada but I don't think we have many neighbourhoods where it's unsafe to walk around during the day.

I thought you were going to comment on race relations in Alabama because this is what disturbs me most in the US - because of their history, a black underclass. Yes, there are many middle class blacks and hispanics but there are also a lot of dirt poor people that will never be able to break the poverty cycle. I spoke with a black bus driver in Toronto who was from the US and he said that when he came to Canada, he was simply amazed that people of different races worked together and socialized together, and knew he had to stay.

My students in Russia told me that Moscow has the same undercl**** but I wasn't there long enough for it to bother me.

On the other hand, the sheer diversity of the US is mind-boggling, in terms of geography and people. And I certainly agree that Canada doesn't have anything comparable to New York and San Francisco - not even close. We don't have such a gap between rich and poor, but we also don't have anything that is remotely "world-class".









__________________

robertmf
25-08-2013, 04:54
... When I was in Alabama back in 1994 ...


:9456: What's with Russians and Alabama ? Were you in Seminary with *Russian Lad* :question:

celia
25-08-2013, 05:00
Robert, no, I was quoting Russian Lad. I would love to go to Alabama but I've never been there. Don't you see the quote marks???

I've decided I'm going to leave further travelling to the US until I'm retired and penniless and then I'll drive around in my 1996 Toyota and catch all the things I've missed.

robertmf
25-08-2013, 05:32
Robert, no, I was quoting Russian Lad. I would love to go to Alabama but I've never been there. Don't you see the quote marks???

I've decided I'm going to leave further travelling to the US until I'm retired and penniless and then I'll drive around in my 1996 Toyota and catch all the things I've missed.

:doh: Yes, now that I look I see. Chalk it up to American reading comprehension (or lack thereof) :rofl:

Unless you want BBQ 'possum stew & grits with a side of poke salad or hush puppies, there is no reason to go to Alabama.

The Brit tv show Top Gear had a US Tour Special S09E03 that explains all about the US South ;)

Jack17
25-08-2013, 14:46
I spoke with a black bus driver in Toronto who was from the US and he said that when he came to Canada, he was simply amazed that people of different races worked together and socialized together, and knew he had to stay.

Another arrogant Canadian who uses a personal anecdote to smear an entire nation of 320,000,000.

Celia, maybe you were in Russia and didn't notice; but 2008 and again in 2012, 53% of Americans elected a black man as their leader.

TolkoRaz
25-08-2013, 15:38
Another arrogant Canadian who uses a personal anecdote to smear an entire nation of 320,000,000.

Celia, maybe you were in Russia and didn't notice; but 2008 and again in 2012, 53% of Americans elected a black man as their leader.

Is 53% of the US of A black?

VicY
25-08-2013, 15:44
What passes for "glaring poverty" in America is equivalent to a normal 3 room Russian qvartira.



Now, I may not have been to the US, but I'll say that you are talking out of your **** sir. :tongue:
A "normal" 3-room apartment in Russia could hardly be described as "glaring poverty", even by a western European standard.
You doubt it? Come to see my very normal 2-room apartment next time.

As for your suggestion to help with the itinerary for travelling in the US, that'd be nice, of course, however, one shouldn't forget that travelling is not the same as actually living in the country. As the famous anecdote goes "Don't confuse tourism and emigration".
I'm sure I'll like it when I travel in the US, especially if I'm given help by a local. However, I've felt the same in Vietnam, Poland, France, Indonesia, some parts of China that were so much easier and interesting to experience because I was accompanied by a local friend. Not sure I'd seriously consider living in any of those countries though.

One thing bugs me now: I can't count how many times Americans that I have met told me how medical care in the US is super expensive and how everyone avoids seeing the doctor as much as possible. How one has to have a good health insurance and how whatever public medical care is out there, one has virtually no access to it. Was it them or me? What did I get wrong and why do they keep saying that the situation is indeed very complicated, whereas you are now saying that it's all fine and people got access to free medical care?

Jack17
25-08-2013, 15:57
Now, I may not have been to the US, but I'll say that you are talking out of your **** sir. :tongue:
A "normal" 3-room apartment in Russia could hardly be described as "glaring poverty", even by a western European standard.
You doubt it? Come to see my very normal 2-room apartment next time.

As for your suggestion to help with the itinerary for travelling in the US, that'd be nice, of course, however, one shouldn't forget that travelling is not the same as actually living in the country. As the famous anecdote goes "Don't confuse tourism and emigration".
I'm sure I'll like it when I travel in the US, especially if I'm given help by a local. However, I've felt the same in Vietnam, Poland, France, Indonesia, some parts of China that were so much easier and interesting to experience because I was accompanied by a local friend. Not sure I'd seriously consider living in any of those countries though.

One thing bugs me now: I can't count how many times Americans that I have met told me how medical care in the US is super expensive and how everyone avoids seeing the doctor as much as possible. How one has to have a good health insurance and how whatever public medical care is out there, one has virtually no access to it. Was it them or me? What did I get wrong and why do they keep saying that the situation is indeed very complicated, whereas you are now saying that it's all fine and people got access to free medical care?
Is American medical care expensive? Yes - however, if you have health insurance, your insurer does not pay the retail price; so, the actually retail fee for a procedure (maybe $5000 for gall bladder surgery) would only cost the insurance company $2500. Approximately 75% of Americans have health insurance; Obamacare is designed to provide complete health insurance coverage for the remaining 25%.

All Americans over the age of 65 have health insurance through Medicare.

There is an entire national system of hospitals and clinics which provides complete medical care free of charge to veterans of military service; these are Veterans Administration hospitals and clinics. I use these hospitals sometimes and they are modern and excellent.

In a nut shell, that's health care in America. I know two Russian doctors who practiced medicine in Russia and then emigrated to the US. They spoke and wrote English at a near native level but had to study professional medical courses for years before they could pass their California State Medical exams to practice medicine here.

I've been to Russian Poly Clinics and I don't think you can compare medical care in the US to that in Russia.

Russian Lad
25-08-2013, 16:06
Jack, the cheapest 3 rooms apartment in Kirov (a regular Russian town) is at least 2 500 000 rubles, I have just checked. The cheapest. It is over 75 thousand dollars. And some go well over 6 million rubles (over 180 thousand dollars). Not exactly glaring poverty even by the US standards I think. Here, take a look:
http://www.mirkvartir.ru/%D0%9A%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C/%D0%9A%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2/%D0%A2%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%85%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5/

So, you were saying?:)

VicY
25-08-2013, 16:12
Is American medical care expensive? Yes - however, if you have health insurance, your insurer does not pay the retail price; so, the actually retail fee for a procedure (maybe $5000 for gall bladder surgery) would only cost the insurance company $2500. Approximately 75% of Americans have health insurance; Obamacare is designed to provide complete health insurance coverage for the remaining 25%.

All Americans over the age of 65 have health insurance through Medicare.

There is an entire national system of hospitals and clinics which provides complete medical care free of charge to veterans of military service; these are Veterans Administration hospitals and clinics. I use these hospitals sometimes and they are modern and excellent.

In a nut shell, that's health care in America. I know two Russian doctors who practiced medicine in Russia and then emigrated to the US. They spoke and wrote English at a near native level but had to study professional medical courses for years before they could pass their California State Medical exams to practice medicine here.

I've been to Russian Poly Clinics and I don't think you can compare medical care in the US to that in Russia.

In a word, there is something wrong with all those Americans who complain about the healthcare system then...Their outlook seemed rather grim to me, but perhaps they aren't as lucky as you are, I don't know.

I can't compare a Russian Polyclinic and a FREE American clinic as obviously I haven't used the latter one. However, when you mentioned two Russian doctors who had to study medical courses before they could pass the state exams...I ain't no doctor but somehow I just doubt that all Russian doctors are oh so bad and substandard and all American doctors are oh so excellent. Sorry, Jack, this thought doesn't sit well with me. I see how my own qualification is being looked down upon and how I am sure I'd have to go to endless courses in the US or Western Europe before I'd be considered "professional enough" in my field and know full well that this is total bullshit. My level of knowledge and professionalism is way better than many of those people from the US or other western countries, as I have repeatedly witnessed.

celia
25-08-2013, 16:13
Tolko, no, he's saying that if 53% of Americans (black, white, Hispanic) voted for a black man for their leader (Barack Obama), there can't be racism.

Yes, Jack, an anecdote is simply an anecdote, but as someone who has visited the US several times, the racism there makes me extremely uncomfortable.

Jack17
25-08-2013, 16:27
Then stay home.

Or live in Russia where there's no prejudice.

penka
25-08-2013, 16:49
In a word, there is something wrong with all those Americans who complain about the healthcare system then...Their outlook seemed rather grim to me, but perhaps they aren't as lucky as you are, I don't know.

I can't compare a Russian Polyclinic and a FREE American clinic as obviously I haven't used the latter one. However, when you mentioned two Russian doctors who had to study medical courses before they could pass the state exams...I ain't no doctor but somehow I just doubt that all Russian doctors are oh so bad and substandard and all American doctors are oh so excellent. Sorry, Jack, this thought doesn't sit well with me. I see how my own qualification is being looked down upon and how I am sure I'd have to go to endless courses in the US or Western Europe before I'd be considered "professional enough" in my field and know full well that this is total bullshit. My level of knowledge and professionalism is way better than many of those people from the US or other western countries, as I have repeatedly witnessed.

Vicks, there is an excellent medical care in every country and something entirely different as well. One of my friends is an American, who goes to the veterans' clinic - top notch and costs nothing, just like Jack17 says. There is excellent education as well - ex-brother-in-law graduated from Georgetown uni and is a high flyer now. And there is unbelievable crap, too. So is in Russia. Just normal people readily admit that, whilst some prefer to see the world only in two colours, black and white. Globus of America is invented for them:jester:

Alan65
25-08-2013, 18:00
Fair points Alan; but come on, you're a business man - where are there more jobs?

Sure, if I wanted to be surrounded by pristine cleanliness and a charming suburban environment, I'd live in Victoria British Columbia - but what job opportunities are there?

Come to think of it, I do live in a pristine suburban environment where the average temperature is 23c, not 12c and it's sunny, not rainy 10 months out of the year and there are boundless job opportunities.

I think many people emigrate for the lifestyle rather than simply a career move, obviously having a job that provides for that lifestyle is important as I could not imagine too many people moving to be where they would be worse off in terms of disposable income, property etc.

robertmf
25-08-2013, 18:04
In a word, there is something wrong with all those Americans who complain about the healthcare system then...Their outlook seemed rather grim to me, but perhaps they aren't as lucky as you are, I don't know.

Americans complain about the high cost of gas|petrol too; but it's cheap when compared to Europe.



I can't compare a Russian Polyclinic and a FREE American clinic as obviously I haven't used the latter one. However, when you mentioned two Russian doctors who had to study medical courses before they could pass the state exams...I ain't no doctor but somehow I just doubt that all Russian doctors are oh so bad and substandard and all American doctors are oh so excellent. Sorry, Jack, this thought doesn't sit well with me. I see how my own qualification is being looked down upon and how I am sure I'd have to go to endless courses in the US or Western Europe before I'd be considered "professional enough" in my field and know full well that this is total bullshit. My level of knowledge and professionalism is way better than many of those people from the US or other western countries, as I have repeatedly witnessed.

I don't know the education levels now, but in my time the education level of a Russian doctor was that of an American 4-year nurse.

Alan65
25-08-2013, 18:07
Jack, the cheapest 3 rooms apartment in Kirov (a regular Russian town) is at least 2 500 000 rubles, I have just checked. The cheapest. It is over 75 thousand dollars. And some go well over 6 million rubles (over 180 thousand dollars). Not exactly glaring poverty even by the US standards I think. Here, take a look:
http://www.mirkvartir.ru/%D0%9A%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C/%D0%9A%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2/%D0%A2%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%85%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5/

So, you were saying?:)

What is the average income in Kirov and what would someone be required to earn applying a typical 4 times salary ration over a 25 year mortgage to buy one of these.

VicY
25-08-2013, 18:15
Americans complain about the high cost of gas|petrol too; but it's cheap when compared to Europe.



I don't know the education levels now, but in my time the education level of a Russian doctor was that of an American 4-year nurse.



When was "your time"? :nut:

VicY
25-08-2013, 18:22
What is the average income in Kirov and what would someone be required to earn applying a typical 4 times salary ration over a 25 year mortgage to buy one of these.

I don't even know why prices for these homes are discussed. I thought that when one is talking about "glaring poverty" of a "normal" 3-room apartment, it's about the degree of comfort it can offer and general conveniences that are available to the inhabitants of such an apartment. The apartment does NOT have to be expensive. In fact, it could just be an equivalent of a council flat.

robertmf
25-08-2013, 18:27
When was "your time"? :nut:

Call it 1970s.

VicY
25-08-2013, 18:32
Call it 1970s.


So you're a doctor yourself?

rubyrussia
25-08-2013, 18:51
Ive found medical services at Russian clinics below par. I think there is a reason too why it is popular for people with money to get treated abroad.

Brain drain was real. I think Russia will catch back up in the future as being a doctor is becoming more and more lucrative.

robertmf
25-08-2013, 19:06
So you're a doctor yourself?

No. Doctors tend to die young.


:drink:

Alan65
25-08-2013, 19:12
Ive found medical services at Russian clinics below par. I think there is a reason too why it is popular for people with money to get treated abroad.

Brain drain was real. I think Russia will catch back up in the future as being a doctor is becoming more and more lucrative.

Even the owner of vkontatke choose medical treatment in London knowing he had an incurable condition

Jack17
25-08-2013, 20:37
I think many people emigrate for the lifestyle rather than simply a career move, obviously having a job that provides for that lifestyle is important as I could not imagine too many people moving to be where they would be worse off in terms of disposable income, property etc.
Yeah, I suppose. That must be why all those American and British physicians and dentists are working in Saudi Arabia - they just want that Sharia lifestyle.

Jack17
25-08-2013, 20:51
And there is unbelievable crap, too.

Are there good and bad doctors everywhere? Sure.

But what is the norm? The norm in the US is controlled by the medical schools which in large part are controlled by the AMA (American Medical Association) which (for financial reasons) wants to keep the numbers of medical doctors relatively low and their quality very high. Secondly, many of these US medical schools are connected to Universities which do significant medical research, research which costs beaucoup bucs which is provided by government and industry. Now, let's ask ourselves, in which country does government and industry have the most money? That's why the US has the highest quality medical care and (by the way) by far the largest number of Nobel Laureate scientists.

Reason being, if I were sick, (or well in my case) I would go to the University of California at San Diego Medical Center and Hospital which has on its faculty 5, (yes, count them 5) Nobel Laureates.

Alan65
25-08-2013, 20:57
Yeah, I suppose. That must be why all those American and British physicians and dentists are working in Saudi Arabia - they just want that Sharia lifestyle.

Can only speak about Brits here, they go for tax free salaries on short term contracts that allows them to pay down mortgages etc, but as Americans get taxed on what they earn overseas, using your arguement, Saudi must be a better place to live than America.

Jack17
25-08-2013, 21:08
Can only speak about Brits here, they go for tax free salaries on short term contracts that allows them to pay down mortgages etc, but as Americans get taxed on what they earn overseas, using your arguement, Saudi must be a better place to live than America.
Being a Brit Alan, I wouldn't expect you to be too familiar with the US Tax Code; but the first $100K of overseas earned income is not taxed by the US Government. Also excluded are housing and meals. For a physician in Saudi, that still could leave a considerable amount that is taxable; but maybe not, depending on how his pay is structured, such as an exceptionally large cash housing allowance, etc., etc.

http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Foreign-Earned-Income-Exclusion

Alan65
25-08-2013, 21:23
Being a Brit Alan, I wouldn't expect you to be too familiar with the US Tax Code; but the first $100K of overseas earned income is not taxed by the US Government. Also excluded are housing and meals. For a physician in Saudi, that still could leave a considerable amount that is taxable; but maybe not, depending on how his pay is structured, such as an exceptionally large cash housing allowance, etc., etc.

http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Foreign-Earned-Income-Exclusion

You are right I know nothing about the US tax situation ....but several posters on here claim that all overseas earning by US citizens get taxed, hence the reason US citizens are queing up to give up their passports....someone must be wrong here....I suspect it is the other thread :D

xSnoofovich
25-08-2013, 21:37
Ive found medical services at Russian clinics below par. I think there is a reason too why it is popular for people with money to get treated abroad.


And that is the thing-

Emergency Russian medical care is somewhat of a joke. it starts off with the first responders. when they pick you up, they judge you and decide if you can pay, and where to take you. if you cant pay, you go somwhere not so nice. if you can, well, it should be nicer. (as a tip, pay a few hundred rub to have them take u to the nicest place)

(heck, i have even had a first responder show up at my apt drunk and he even broke my phone).

inside the actual ambulance, there is next to nothing, aside from a stretcher (maybe). hope you dont need anything important.


so, after you get to wherever you are going, then comes the wait. some times its easier for the patient to die and fill out paperwork than it is actually take care of said person, especially if there is a lack of medical supplies, or the procedure is extremely complicated.

so, lets say you make it this far- you either get to go home, and show up at some polyclinic a few days later, or you get to stay in the hospital.

if u stay, and if u you have money, you can get a private room. but dont forget to have your friends or relatives bring you extra food, as the food you will be served is pretty basic. kasha, some meat, etc.

also, they should prob bring some things from the local apteka, such as needles, bandages, etc. unless u dont mind using second hand or possibly used supplies.

if u don't, then u get stuck in a room with many other people and many other different reasons for being there....


and the story goes on.......

now, on the other hand, just the other day i went with someone to a polyclinic for a minor problem. the place was beautiful, the service was great, the equipment was state-of-the-art, and the medical care was seemingly top-notch. the person didnt have any insurance, so the costs were out of pocket, and were fairly reasonable.

on the other hand......

a coworker, whose mother is a top doctor here in msk, or so she says, just had some heart problems, and she was flown to germany for care there.

BabyFirefly
25-08-2013, 21:40
.

One thing bugs me now: I can't count how many times Americans that I have met told me how medical care in the US is super expensive and how everyone avoids seeing the doctor as much as possible. How one has to have a good health insurance and how whatever public medical care is out there, one has virtually no access to it. Was it them or me? What did I get wrong and why do they keep saying that the situation is indeed very complicated, whereas you are now saying that it's all fine and people got access to free medical care?

I went to the hospital way too many times in Moscow and many times in the US. Russian medical care was fast and efficient; it was also behind the times and doctors still believe old wives' tales that no serious doctor in the US would even dare think of. In the US, it's slower and expensive, yes, but my illness has never been blamed on the weather or "women stress".

It's not complicated. Insurance doesn't actually cover all your costs, it merely covers some of them; so, it's more of a discount program. I got a surgery a week ago and still paid a couple of thousands; sure, sans insurance, I would've paid many thousands more. But unless you have very good insurance (mine is good enough, but medical insurance companies are the scammiest, ethically most f___ up thing to exist in modern society), it's essentially a medical discount program, and yes, you will be at the ER and worrying about whether you've gone over your insurance's limit or not instead of your health. Do I prefer it? Yes, if I was rich I'd prefer it. As of now, I'd just as well go back to Russia.

(And yes, all of that ^ at private hospitals.)

Although I like to see someone not hate on the US on expat.ru for once, what Jack is saying about free clinics is off. Those free clinics usually are awful. VA services? Pretty awful too. The VA hospital my dad goes to is essentially just filled with B-tier medical school students and he has to wait forever for anything to get done. Hardly a replacement for good, private medical care.

Alan65
25-08-2013, 21:42
I went to the hospital way too many times in Moscow and many times in the US. Russian medical care was fast and efficient; it was also behind the times and doctors still believe old wives' tales that no serious doctor in the US would even dare think of. In the US, it's slower and expensive, yes, but my illness has never been blamed on the weather or "women stress".

It's not complicated. Insurance doesn't actually cover all your costs, it merely covers some of them; so, it's more of a discount program. I got a surgery a week ago and still paid a couple of thousands; sure, sans insurance, I would've paid many thousands more. But unless you have very good insurance (mine is good enough, but medical insurance companies are the scammiest, ethically most f___ up thing to exist in modern society), it's essentially a medical discount program, and yes, you will be at the ER and worrying about whether you've gone over your insurance's limit or not instead of your health. Do I prefer it? Yes, if I was rich I'd prefer it. As of now, I'd just as well go back to Russia.

Womens stress...a few weeks ago a Russian politician was suggesting that women get 2 days off per month for this "illness".

robertmf
25-08-2013, 21:43
You are right I know nothing about the US tax situation ....but several posters on here claim that all overseas earning by US citizens get taxed, hence the reason US citizens are queing up to give up their passports....someone must be wrong here....I suspect it is the other thread :D

IRS webpage on expats (http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens-and-Resident-Aliens-Abroad)

Exclusion (http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Foreign-Earned-Income-Exclusion)

BabyFirefly
25-08-2013, 21:44
Womens stress...a few weeks ago a Russian politician was suggesting that women get 2 days off per month for this "illness".

Hey if medical professionals there think that "women stress" causes X thing instead of genetics or anything else that makes sense to anyone who's opened a science book in the last ten years, well, I just can't expect politicians to be any better.

Alan65
25-08-2013, 21:48
IRS webpage on expats (http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens-and-Resident-Aliens-Abroad)

Robert...thanks a lot but I have better things to do such as drink beer and watch football than read about the US tax codes :D :boxing:

robertmf
25-08-2013, 22:17
And that is the thing-

Emergency Russian medical care is somewhat of a joke. it starts off with the first responders. when they pick you up, they judge you and decide if you can pay, and where to take you. if you cant pay, you go somwhere not so nice. if you can, well, it should be nicer. (as a tip, pay a few hundred rub to have them take u to the nicest place)


Local Report: Child suffers head trauma after sliding incident at 759 Park Road in Upper Gwynedd, per MontcoAlerts Twitter. Helicopter called for medical evacuation.

Jack17
25-08-2013, 22:21
Although I like to see someone not hate on the US on expat.ru for once, what Jack is saying about free clinics is off. Those free clinics usually are awful. VA services? Pretty awful too. The VA hospital my dad goes to is essentially just filled with B-tier medical school students and he has to wait forever for anything to get done. Hardly a replacement for good, private medical care.

Baby, yours is one person's experience. I assume your father is treated in Puerto Rico? That's an outlying area and it may be difficult to get good doctors to work there. US doctors out of Medical School usually begin their careers in VA hospitals; then they transition to private institutions and clinics. Let's face it, Puerto Rico may not be a prime destination for people in the medical profession. In the US, there is no forced labor; doctors have to agree to work in Puerto Rico.

Your father should think of relocating to Southern California because I can assure you, the VA hospitals here are excellent. By the way, "medical students" do not treat patients in VA hospitals and clinics - only licensed graduates of medical school who have passed their state's medical exams treat patients there, just as in any other US hospital.

Russian Lad
25-08-2013, 22:35
Haven't you guys digressed quite a bit on this thread discussing the medical care in the US and Russia?
On the whole, I guess it is better in the US, though in Russia you can get what you want for your money as well.

BabyFirefly
25-08-2013, 23:55
Baby, yours is one person's experience. I assume your father is treated in Puerto Rico? That's an outlying area and it may be difficult to get good doctors to work there. US doctors out of Medical School usually begin their careers in VA hospitals; then they transition to private institutions and clinics. Let's face it, Puerto Rico may not be a prime destination for people in the medical profession. In the US, there is no forced labor; doctors have to agree to work in Puerto Rico.

Your father should think of relocating to Southern California because I can assure you, the VA hospitals here are excellent. By the way, "medical students" do not treat patients in VA hospitals and clinics - only licensed graduates of medical school who have passed their state's medical exams treat patients there, just as in any other US hospital.

He started at PR and now is in Utah, same story.

You're wrong about doctors having to agree to work in PR. There's great doctors in PR, same technology as in the US, fraction of the cost. I'd suggest any Spanish-speaking American to get treated in PR instead of in the mainland.

BabyFirefly
25-08-2013, 23:56
Haven't you guys digressed quite a bit on this thread discussing the medical care in the US and Russia?
On the whole, I guess it is better in the US, though in Russia you can get what you want for your money as well.

The AMC in Moscow is a hotel almost. Amazing place.

penka
26-08-2013, 00:13
Are there good and bad doctors everywhere? Sure.

But what is the norm? The norm in the US is controlled by the medical schools which in large part are controlled by the AMA (American Medical Association) which (for financial reasons) wants to keep the numbers of medical doctors relatively low and their quality very high. Secondly, many of these US medical schools are connected to Universities which do significant medical research, research which costs beaucoup bucs which is provided by government and industry. Now, let's ask ourselves, in which country does government and industry have the most money? That's why the US has the highest quality medical care and (by the way) by far the largest number of Nobel Laureate scientists.

Reason being, if I were sick, (or well in my case) I would go to the University of California at San Diego Medical Center and Hospital which has on its faculty 5, (yes, count them 5) Nobel Laureates.

Jack, I believe you. When in Rodina and having a bad cold or an urge to check my pinky, I dial my family doc, who comes, inspects and sends in the lab people if I'm not up to going to the polyclinic. The buildings might be run down but the docs are excellent and don't frown when I say "anamnesis". Back home I must schedule an appointment with the doc, assigned to my district to get a remittence to a specialist even I got an eye trouble. My ex who is a fine Swede (read:not living off the welfare precisely), goes ONLY to his Am doc for the regular check-ups, is afraid to get sick in Sweden AND his American doctor is consulting my Russian home doctor on occasion. Go figure.

All I am saying, there is excellency and deep shit everywhere and sometimes the quality is not defined by the prettiness of the surgery's reception. The bill, however, can spell out the difference.

I can count, man. Relax.

robertmf
26-08-2013, 00:15
... VA services? Pretty awful too. The VA hospital my dad goes to is essentially just filled with B-tier medical school students and he has to wait forever for anything to get done. Hardly a replacement for good, private medical care.

From my routine experiences I'd say you're wrong on this. When I first enrolled at the Philly VA I saw "doctors" but it was decided I'm just primary care routine and so now usually see student-doctors and nurse practitioners for yearly derma, opto, and physical. It's a matter of triage. I don't need to see a doctor.

Should something "bad" happen, then I see doctor or go across the street to the affilitated UPENN system. If they can't cure the problem, then also across the street is the Veterinary School.

There's also the prescriptions refills which the VA handles by mail and is much better than the what-is-it 20 days and then renew of drug store prescription refills.

penka
26-08-2013, 00:21
Haven't you guys digressed quite a bit on this thread discussing the medical care in the US and Russia?
On the whole, I guess it is better in the US, though in Russia you can get what you want for your money as well.

Lad, it's always better to have a buck, no?:-))

You do know which wonders many people can perform for an adequate amount of those. Mmmm......

MashaSashina
26-08-2013, 00:34
From my routine experiences I'd say you're wrong on this. When I first enrolled at the Philly VA I saw "doctors" but it was decided I'm just primary care routine and so now usually see student-doctors and nurse practitioners for yearly derma, opto, and physical. It's a matter of triage. I don't need to see a doctor.

Should something "bad" happen, then I see doctor or go across the street to the affilitated UPENN system. If they can't cure the problem, then also across the street is the Veterinary School.

There's also the prescriptions refills which the VA handles by mail and is much better than the what-is-it 20 days and then renew of drug store prescription refills.

Just curious, when you come to the Veterinary school, who do you say you are?

Russian Lad
26-08-2013, 00:38
You do know which wonders many people can perform for an adequate amount of those. Mmmm......

Believe me, I do.:) Especially women.:) Mmmmm... Exactly!:)

BabyFirefly, yes, I guess AMC is good. Nothing is perfect though, once in the previous millenium I was interviewed for the position of an assistant at their office. We were passing an emergency treatment room, there was an old lady hooked up to various tubes inside, groaning and fidgeting. The doctor who was going to interview me commented: "Oh, well, let's cross our fingers and hope she doesn't die tonight!", winking and flashing a bright American smile at me.:) Talk about work ethics.:)

yakspeare
26-08-2013, 00:59
Well I see it as:

America awesome and expensive and fairly quick
Russia almost free and generally bad but very fast
Australia awesome and free but takes the longest time to get treatment.

Choose your poison.

BabyFirefly
26-08-2013, 01:01
From my routine experiences I'd say you're wrong on this. When I first enrolled at the Philly VA I saw "doctors" but it was decided I'm just primary care routine and so now usually see student-doctors and nurse practitioners for yearly derma, opto, and physical. It's a matter of triage. I don't need to see a doctor.

Should something "bad" happen, then I see doctor or go across the street to the affilitated UPENN system. If they can't cure the problem, then also across the street is the Veterinary School.

There's also the prescriptions refills which the VA handles by mail and is much better than the what-is-it 20 days and then renew of drug store prescription refills.


I'm telling my father to move to Philly or California.

robertmf
26-08-2013, 01:21
Just curious, when you come to the Veterinary school, who do you say you are?

Generally speaking, it is more difficult to get into vet school than med school



:9456:

penka
26-08-2013, 01:42
Generally speaking, it is more difficult to get into vet school than med school



:9456:

Doesn't that scare you, Robert??

penka
26-08-2013, 01:43
Believe me, I do.:) Especially women.:) Mmmmm... Exactly!:)

BabyFirefly, yes, I guess AMC is good. Nothing is perfect though, once in the previous millenium I was interviewed for the position of an assistant at their office. We were passing an emergency treatment room, there was an old lady hooked up to various tubes inside, groaning and fidgeting. The doctor who was going to interview me commented: "Oh, well, let's cross our fingers and hope she doesn't die tonight!", winking and flashing a bright American smile at me.:) Talk about work ethics.:)

Especially men.... Trust me.

Jack17
26-08-2013, 01:58
From my routine experiences I'd say you're wrong on this. When I first enrolled at the Philly VA I saw "doctors" but it was decided I'm just primary care routine and so now usually see student-doctors and nurse practitioners for yearly derma, opto, and physical. It's a matter of triage. I don't need to see a doctor.

Should something "bad" happen, then I see doctor or go across the street to the affilitated UPENN system. If they can't cure the problem, then also across the street is the Veterinary School.

There's also the prescriptions refills which the VA handles by mail and is much better than the what-is-it 20 days and then renew of drug store prescription refills.

Robert, everyone is seen in hospitals by interns and residents, i.e., "student doctors." But these "students" are never the attending physician, who is always a licensed practitioner.

robertmf
26-08-2013, 02:14
Doesn't that scare you, Robert??

Not really. Veterinarians have to be very good at diagnostics because their patients can't tell them what's wrong !! :mml


:nut:

MashaSashina
26-08-2013, 02:43
Generally speaking, it is more difficult to get into vet school than med school



:9456:
Are you saying that people are treated worse than animals in the USA?? :suspect:

Russian Lad
26-08-2013, 03:32
Especially men.... Trust me.

Care to explain?:) Or you just felt like talking back for no reason?:)
I haven't met a lot of men looking for financially secure/rich women (well, except for Jack here and couple of other guys who don't mean it seriously anyway). Quite many are looking for reasonably attractive and reasonably young ones, this is true...

robertmf
26-08-2013, 04:27
Are you saying that people are treated worse than animals in the USA?? :suspect:

Not at all. I saying that -academically- it is more difficult to be accepted to veterinary school than medical school

Perry Franz
26-08-2013, 13:43
Wow, someone has been in Canada and had a really bad experience. I wondered what happened? As a Canadian, I am really proud of our cultural diversity, tolerance and freedoms. Health care? It's free. Cultural experiences? There's the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, the hundreds of cultural festivals right across our incredible country, TIFF, the list goes on and on. Yes, we are infected by the USA's cultural arrogance, but we do have our own identity. Don't get me wrong, we really like the USA but it seems the love isn't returned by all Yanks. And BTW, America defines itself by Honey Boo-Boo...everything can't be copacetic in the land of the free...

xSnoofovich
26-08-2013, 13:46
Wow, someone has been in Canada and had a really bad experience. I wondered what happened? As a Canadian, I am really proud of our cultural diversity, tolerance and freedoms. Health care? It's free. Cultural experiences? There's the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, the hundreds of cultural festivals right across our incredible country, TIFF, the list goes on and on. Yes, we are infected by the USA's cultural arrogance, but we do have our own identity. Don't get me wrong, we really like the USA but it seems the love isn't returned by all Yanks. And BTW, America defines itself by Honey Boo-Boo...everything can't be copacetic in the land of the free...

I Am Canadian - YouTube

yakspeare
26-08-2013, 15:27
Winnipeg ballet? Winnipeg a source of Canadian culture? Don't make agree with Jack..

Next you will be talking about the cultured life in Calgary or Medicine hat..

Alan65
26-08-2013, 15:38
Winnipeg ballet? Winnipeg a source of Canadian culture? Don't make agree with Jack..

Next you will be talking about the cultured life in Calgary or Medicine hat..

Isn't the Canadian interpretation of clubbing hitting a baby seal on the head with a lump of wood.

Jack17
26-08-2013, 16:52
For all of you who have never been to Canada, below is a bit of the reality, lest you are given to believe all its streets are paved with gold:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8259986.stm

mrzuzzo
26-08-2013, 17:20
Next you will be talking about the cultured life in Calgary or Medicine hat..

Calgary has a lot of culture! I love Calgary because I think it's a really cultured city with its own cowboy and wild west identity.

The Calgary Stampede, for example, gets loads of visitors from Europe and US.

Judge
26-08-2013, 17:54
For all of you who have never been to Canada, below is a bit of the reality, lest you are given to believe all its streets are paved with gold:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8259986.stm

That's the place where Canada's most prolific serial killer got his victim from...

Robert Pickton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BabyFirefly
26-08-2013, 19:03
Wow, someone has been in Canada and had a really bad experience. I wondered what happened? As a Canadian, I am really proud of our cultural diversity, tolerance and freedoms. Health care? It's free. Cultural experiences? There's the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, the hundreds of cultural festivals right across our incredible country, TIFF, the list goes on and on. Yes, we are infected by the USA's cultural arrogance, but we do have our own identity. Don't get me wrong, we really like the USA but it seems the love isn't returned by all Yanks. And BTW, America defines itself by Honey Boo-Boo...everything can't be copacetic in the land of the free...

I like how you get all offended about people generalizing about Canada and a couple of sentences later, reduce all of America to Honey Boo Boo.

Alan65
26-08-2013, 20:37
For all of you who have never been to Canada, below is a bit of the reality, lest you are given to believe all its streets are paved with gold:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8259986.stm

Looks worse than Woolwich :yuk:

Jack17
26-08-2013, 20:41
Calgary has a lot of culture! I love Calgary because I think it's a really cultured city with its own cowboy and wild west identity.

The Calgary Stampede, for example, gets loads of visitors from Europe and US.
The Calgary Stampede and the Winnepeg Ballet, who could ask for more.

Now, I'll be impressed Z if you tell me you've ridden a bull. You should go to work in Skulkovo with a ten gallon hat, boots and spurs to show your cutural pride.

robertmf
26-08-2013, 20:50
Now, I'll be impressed Z if you tell me you've ridden a bull. You should go to work in Skulkovo with a ten gallon hat, boots and spurs to show your cutural pride.

... and carry around a Colt .45 :trampoline:

Alan65
26-08-2013, 20:57
... and carry around a Colt .45 :trampoline:


The Canadian Film industry, has anyone ever seen any of these films, I quite like the look of "Duct Tape Forever", sounds like a great S & M Movie :D

Cinema of Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

celia
26-08-2013, 22:02
By the way, I think there was a misunderstanding earlier in the thread. Someone spoke about vets and then the topic turned to veterinarians. The vet that was originally mentioned was the short form for "veteran", someone who has served in an army or navy, for example "a World War II veteran").

Yes, and culture has two different meanings too. Culture can refer to a way of life (so in that context you can talk about the Calgary Stampede showing a wild west/cowboy culture), but I think Jack and Yak are talking about culture in terms of high culture, like opera or fine art, and I don't think anyone is claiming that Calgary has a lot of high culture.

xSnoofovich
26-08-2013, 23:42
Canada has a lot of culture! I love its cowboy and wild west identity.


See, that's we differ. I can't imagine an American cowboy doing this.......

http://i.imgur.com/2EsnDD7.jpg

yakspeare
27-08-2013, 00:49
Canada

Jack17
27-08-2013, 03:24
Canada
You know the husband with the partfel is not an American; or, he would have shot the interloper.

Russian Lad
27-08-2013, 20:27
Canada
You know the husband with the partfel is not an American; or, he would have shot the interloper.

Maybe it is one of the reasons the US is such a dangerous country to live in?:) I mean, Jack, you have never slept with someone's wife? As we say in Russia, the hen doesn't want it, the cock will not jump on it. (Курочка не захочет, петушок не вскочит).

VicY
28-08-2013, 04:33
And that is the thing-

Emergency Russian medical care is somewhat of a joke. it starts off with the first responders. when they pick you up, they judge you and decide if you can pay, and where to take you. if you cant pay, you go somwhere not so nice. if you can, well, it should be nicer. (as a tip, pay a few hundred rub to have them take u to the nicest place)

(heck, i have even had a first responder show up at my apt drunk and he even broke my phone).

inside the actual ambulance, there is next to nothing, aside from a stretcher (maybe). hope you dont need anything important.


so, after you get to wherever you are going, then comes the wait. some times its easier for the patient to die and fill out paperwork than it is actually take care of said person, especially if there is a lack of medical supplies, or the procedure is extremely complicated.

so, lets say you make it this far- you either get to go home, and show up at some polyclinic a few days later, or you get to stay in the hospital.

if u stay, and if u you have money, you can get a private room. but dont forget to have your friends or relatives bring you extra food, as the food you will be served is pretty basic. kasha, some meat, etc.

also, they should prob bring some things from the local apteka, such as needles, bandages, etc. unless u dont mind using second hand or possibly used supplies.

if u don't, then u get stuck in a room with many other people and many other different reasons for being there....


and the story goes on.......

now, on the other hand, just the other day i went with someone to a polyclinic for a minor problem. the place was beautiful, the service was great, the equipment was state-of-the-art, and the medical care was seemingly top-notch. the person didnt have any insurance, so the costs were out of pocket, and were fairly reasonable.

on the other hand......

a coworker, whose mother is a top doctor here in msk, or so she says, just had some heart problems, and she was flown to germany for care there.

Wow, you sound like you've had LOADS of personal experience, especially with the ambulance services. How many times have you had to call them? :p

VicY
28-08-2013, 04:45
I went to the hospital way too many times in Moscow and many times in the US. Russian medical care was fast and efficient; it was also behind the times and doctors still believe old wives' tales that no serious doctor in the US would even dare think of. In the US, it's slower and expensive, yes, but my illness has never been blamed on the weather or "women stress".


Could you elaborate a bit more on what is meant by those "old wives' tales", BFF? I know that there are things certain doctors in different countries don't agree on, but I'm curious to hear about your experience.
And what the heck is meant by "women's stress"? Is it like PMS? Never heard this from a doctor in Russia.
Long term stress can and does affect one's health, though. Sometimes significantly.

Ghostly Presence
28-08-2013, 09:38
What passes for "glaring poverty" in America is equivalent to a normal 3 room Russian qvartira.

Forming an impression of America based on a year in a bible college in Alabama would be like me forming an opinion of Russia based on a year in Kirov - or, for that matter, a year living on Nevsky Prospect in SPB; both experiences would provide a very skewed view of the country as a whole.

The US is not a boutique country like NZ, OZ, Canada or Liechtenstein. It attracts large numbers from the entire world - 320,000,000 to be exact.
In fact, as wonderful as NZ and Canada are, more Brits emigrate to the US than to those two countries combined. Why? Opportunity.

Jack17,

If America is such a great society to live in, then why so many people (including kids) so often go berserk there and start shooting innocent bystanders for no apparent reason? Is it because they are overwhelmed with joy over living in the US? And why such a happy place has one of the largest prison populations in the world and the highest relative percentage of its citizens kept in jails, even when compared with the third world countries? These facts don't reconcile well with the portrait of a happy society you are depicting here...

BabyFirefly
28-08-2013, 18:13
Because mental health services aren't very accessible, and guns easy to obtain. And then you have a system that believes in punishment rather than rehab, and in which there are private interests investing in jails and the like, and you'll have a good number of people in jail when they shouldn't be.

On a personal observation, I find that American's obsession with "climbing" up in their careers and life makes them horribly competitive, which is great in terms of a workforce and driving an economy up, but bad in the sense that it becomes hard as hell to create solid interpersonal relationships when everyone is competing against you. This creates a bunch of lonely people who might get depressed or whatever, and thanks to little or no mental health care (whether because they chose not to go, or can't afford it, or just the stigma associated with seeing a therapist), they explode in a fit of rage. In most people you'll just see this in road rage, but then you have the occasional nut who'll actually go on a rampage murder spree.

I won't elaborate on what doctors in Russia told me as I don't want to somehow give out my medical history. But it was antiquated BS.

yakspeare
28-08-2013, 18:18
Russian GP medical advice is one step above voodoo.

robertmf
28-08-2013, 18:32
Jack17,

If America is such a great society to live in, then why so many people (including kids) so often go berserk there and start shooting innocent bystanders for no apparent reason? Is it because they are overwhelmed with joy over living in the US? And why such a happy place has one of the largest prison populations in the world and the highest relative percentage of its citizens kept in jails, even when compared with the third world countries? These facts don't reconcile well with the portrait of a happy society you are depicting here...

Blah. Criminal and mental health problems are in all countries. The US is just a bit more transparent on the nightly news.

One factor involved with locking up the "bad guys" is that the US can afford to do it -and- building & maintaining prisons in the US is big business both commercially with building contracts and politically "creating jobs jobs jobs".

mikegulf
28-08-2013, 18:36
Russian GP medical advice is one step above voodoo.

That's no joke!!!!!

penka
28-08-2013, 19:25
Russian GP medical advice is one step above voodoo.

In that case Chinese medicine is way beyond voodoo. Alas, it works. Bloody hell!

penka
28-08-2013, 19:27
Blah. Criminal and mental health problems are in all countries. The US is just a bit more transparent on the nightly news.

One factor involved with locking up the "bad guys" is that the US can afford to do it -and- building & maintaining prisons in the US is big business both commercially with building contracts and politically "creating jobs jobs jobs".

Not to forget the "ambulance chases".

BabyFirefly
28-08-2013, 19:40
In that case Chinese medicine is way beyond voodoo. Alas, it works. Bloody hell!

Please, let's not promote people getting scammed.

Alternative medicine = you might as well rub butter on your forehead, that's how effective it'll be.

*Spoken as a person who fell for that natural remedy/naturopathy/Chinese "medicine" BS.

robertmf
28-08-2013, 20:09
Please, let's not promote people getting scammed.

Alternative medicine = you might as well rub butter on your forehead, that's how effective it'll be.

*Spoken as a person who fell for that natural remedy/naturopathy/Chinese "medicine" BS.

I'm including "faith-based" remedies, too.

While I'm all for individual freedoms of choice, there is a line drawn when those choices affect others with the same freedoms (with bad results).


A Texas mega-church at the epicenter of a measles outbreak (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/texas-church-epicenter-measles-outbreak/story?id=20071644) is preaching immunizations for its congregants despite previous statements by its founder that vaccines may cause autism.

There are 20 confirmed cases of measles in the latest outbreak, according to the Texas Department of State Health Services. At least eight of the patients are members of the Eagle Mountain International Church, church officials said, and 15 of the cases are in Tarrant County where the church is located.

Of the 15 cases in Tarrant County, 11 had not received all of the recommended vaccinations to prevent measles according to the Tarrant County Public Health website. The other cases may have been partially vaccinated, there is no official documentation to verify their vaccine history.

Some positions taken by church leadership in the past have led to Eagle Mountain being labeled anti-vaccine in the media. But now the church is speaking out against that notion.

"We have never taken an anti-vaccine position. It has never been preached by this pulpit or put forth by our leadership," insisted Robert Hayes, a spokesman for the church.

However, the mega-church's leader, Kenneth Copeland,has promoted the idea that vaccines are dangerous for children and may be linked to autism. Putting emphasis on the power of faith healing, Copeland has urged his followers on the church's website to resist the pressure to vaccinate their children.

Jack17
28-08-2013, 20:46
Back to the topic -

I'd like to reiterate what BabyFirefly wrote, with a coda: I'd like to live in Canada - in the summer.

penka
28-08-2013, 21:09
Please, let's not promote people getting scammed.

Alternative medicine = you might as well rub butter on your forehead, that's how effective it'll be.

*Spoken as a person who fell for that natural remedy/naturopathy/Chinese "medicine" BS.

BF, the Pill was invented in China long before European countries and America were.

Western medicine targets the concrete problem disregarding everything else in the human body. It works tills the rest of the body can sustain it. Then the hell breaks loose. Chinese medicine (I wouldn't know about what you elusively call for the "alternative medicine") respects the body as a harmonously functioning mechanism. Their treatments might take longer time but they do function. Having said that: When one got a broken limb, one needs a surgeon. Chinese do not deny that.

Personally, I do not buy into the opinion that hydrocortisone/penicillin/antidepressants as the universal panacea to all human maladies.

robertmf
28-08-2013, 21:31
BF, the Pill was invented in China long before European countries and America were.


Yes. But the :eek: Chinese folk 'The Pill' (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/08/human-flesh-pills-dead-babies-china_n_1499082.html) is distasteful to Westerners.



:yikes:

xSnoofovich
28-08-2013, 23:45
Wow, you sound like you've had LOADS of personal experience, especially with the ambulance services. How many times have you had to call them? :p

in total? prob somewhere between 15-20 times over the years.

celia
29-08-2013, 00:12
Snoof, I had the same ambulance experience in China - I fainted in a Chinese internet cafe, and the ambulance that came for me was completely empty - it looked like an empty delivery truck. And as soon as I was conscious a very polite man asked me how I planned to pay for the ambulance ride. However, I was very grateful for the ambulance and for the fact that the man spoke great English.

Russian Lad
29-08-2013, 00:41
America... Canada... Thailand beats them both by a large margin on quite many points anyway.:)

VicY
29-08-2013, 13:39
That's no joke!!!!!

Indeed. How many GP doctors have you seen in Russia?

VicY
30-08-2013, 18:46
I won't elaborate on what doctors in Russia told me as I don't want to somehow give out my medical history. But it was antiquated BS.

Well, in that case it's my turn to throw the BS card, dear BFF. You can't provide examples? Don't throw about labels then. I even wonder how any of you could get to experience all these doctors if you're not entitled to receive Russian state medical care. :suspect: I've worked with foreigners in Russia and all of them went to specialised clinics that were covered by their international insurance.

One could generalise a bit and explain what attitudes they found "antiquated", etc. :rolleyes:
I can easily talk about a few factors without disclosing my medical history. E.g. that some of the conditions, that Western doctors see as not extremely harmful or even "natural" still get treated in Russia. Some bacteria in the Russian medical practice are still treated as pathogens, whereas in the west they are only conditionally pathogenic (although not so long ago the opinions on them were similar). However, all of this means little if you don't find a doctor who you can trust, be it in Russia or overseas. This is what my personal experience has been.
One and only one big difference I have found to be between an average Russian and an average Western doctor is that the Russian doctor just loves to attribute most of your problems to your age! And of course, the notion of "old age" is markedly different too, which sometimes can be annoying when you see a doctor in Russia. :mad: At 30 you're already "old" enough to have a whole bunch of conditions that will apparently stay with you forever :drink:

mrzuzzo
30-08-2013, 18:59
I have heart problems and I visit doctors regularly in Russia (covered by my insurance) and haven't really been met with any issues... Technologically, the equipment they have is the same as anywhere else. The quality of service really depends on the doctor, and that is true for medical care in any country.

Jack17
30-08-2013, 19:32
Technologically, the equipment they have is the same as anywhere else.

At least it's the same as in Canada . . .

mrzuzzo
30-08-2013, 19:35
At least it's the same as in Canada . . .

Hey bud, gonna take any other cheap stabs at Canada, the country that's better than the US?

FYI, I work in the medical electronics industry, so I am an expert on the subject.

TolkoRaz
30-08-2013, 20:42
FYI, I work in the medical electronics industry, so I am an expert on the subject.

Hope you get a good 'skidka' on your PaceMaker? ;)

celia
31-08-2013, 08:29
Yak, this is not an attack, but I'm curious - if you think the Russian medical system is one step above voodoo, why did you want to study medicine there?

yakspeare
31-08-2013, 09:26
A couple of reasons.

Firstly, medicine currently being taught in Russia is a significant improvement on the past, so those coming through the system now are far superior to those who have been doing it for many years in some polyclinic. It is still behind the west but knowledge exchanges that are going on now will bridge that gap.

Another issue is cost. In krasnodar it is $2500 a year to study medicine, you would pay ten times that or more in Australia. Also to get into Medicine in Australia you need to be in the top 1% of students, any less you can't get in. For Russia, as a foreigner, you need year 12 maths (any type), Chemistry and biology with just a pass in each. Impossible to do medicine on that score in oz.

Although there are plenty of Russian doctors driving taxis in Australia, in the last few years there IS an avenue to practice here by nominating for a rural hospital and be supervised for a year. America has a similar program, which costs $30000, with 15 months of observation before licensing.

Medicine in Australia is 7 years, Russia it is 6 years plus an optional 1 year internship to get a russian licence. So if I didn't want a russian licence I could go back to oz in the same amount of time have an australian one. And then earn 200k to 1 mil a year helping people.

As for russian health today , I have heard the doctor's advice given to some, many doctors I taught agreed with me. I have been in some pretty disgusting hospitals in Russia and terrible ambulances. Standard of first responder care and equipment is abysmal. As an industrial paramedic myself I have been quite horrified travelling in the back of am ambulance alone, throwing up with nowhere to project it into, while 3 sat in the front smoking and listening loudly to the radio.

I have seen various treatment on children with painful needles that a pill takes care of in the west. I have seen herbal teas instead of medication, apteka prescriptions a page long instead of 1-2 pills in the west. I was diagnosed with prostate cancer which was false. I had a skin cancer found in Australia that the Russians couldn't find and had to go back to oz to treat. I listen to russians say their doctor told them not to be in air conditioning on a hot day, not give a cold drink to kids on a hot day (risking dehydration and heat stress) and "catching a cold" in their vagina by wearing too short a skirt...

mrzuzzo
31-08-2013, 10:41
there are plenty of Russian doctors driving taxis in Australia

I call BS on that one.

yakspeare
31-08-2013, 10:57
I call BS on that one.

well then you have no clue. Not just Australia:

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/2020264318-days-of-doctors-driving-taxis-could-be-over
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/columnists/2009/03/02/the_crying_shame_of_the_taxidriving_surgeon.html
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/09/study-reveals-there-are-doctors-driving-cabs-in-toronto
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/foreign-doctors-in-germany-need-no-longer-be-taxi-drivers/2003516.article

and this is an article about how difficult it is to get russian qualifications generally accepted in Australia:

http://griffithreview.com/edition-19-re-imagining-australia/life-in-translation

Muromets
31-08-2013, 12:53
Back to the healthcare debate. There was a landmark ranking by the World Health Organisation back in 2000, that ranked the US healthcare system as 37th best in the world.

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf

However, this ranking proved to be so controversial (mostly because of the howls of protest from US policymakers), that the WHO hasn't repeated it.

The Commonwealth Fund, using slightly different metrics, and a much smaller sample of countries in 2012, ranked the US last out of 7 countries analysed.

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf

In all cases and studies (not just these two) Canadian healthcare always outperformed the US, and was in turn outperformed by Europe - especially France. In fact France seems to consistently come out on top, along with Australia in terms of overall healthcare provision.

There is no doubt that the US has the finest examples of healthcare in the world - they're pretty much monoplised research into medicine and pharmaceuticals over the last coupe of generations, but the crucial point is one of accessibility. The healthcare is superb for who can access it and pay for it. For those that can't its mediocre to downright awful. In addition, based on what I've read and experienced myself, its easily the most expensive in the world.

So. Got money? Head to the US. If not, then go to France, the UK, Netherlands, Australia, UAE.

Jack17
31-08-2013, 17:58
There is no doubt that the US has the finest examples of healthcare in the world - they're pretty much monoplised research into medicine and pharmaceuticals over the last coupe of generations

Correct, and 78% of Americans have access to that health care today; in two years, 100% will have access through the Affordable Healthcare Act, aka Obamacare.

Actually, 100% have access today because no hospital can refuse care to someone because they have no insurance or money. This is why when I go to the Emergency Room of my local hospital the waiting room is filled with Mexican immigrants.

You may quote all the WHO surveys you like; the WHO is a UN agency that is filled with the likes of Mr. Zuzzo, TR and Benedikt who have a rabid bias against the US and cherry pick their data to conform with that bias. If you want to know which country has the best health care in the world, just look to which country the world's wealthiest people go when they are sick - it ain't France, Canada or Australia.

Russian Lad
31-08-2013, 18:41
it ain't France, Canada or Australia.

I have heard about Israel and Germany in this context very often.


well then you have no clue. Not just Australia:

Yak, though you wear the doctor's white robe, as I understand you never made it as a doctor in Russia? :)

mrzuzzo
31-08-2013, 19:37
well then you have no clue. Not just Australia:

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/2020264318-days-of-doctors-driving-taxis-could-be-over
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/columnists/2009/03/02/the_crying_shame_of_the_taxidriving_surgeon.html
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/09/study-reveals-there-are-doctors-driving-cabs-in-toronto
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/foreign-doctors-in-germany-need-no-longer-be-taxi-drivers/2003516.article

and this is an article about how difficult it is to get russian qualifications generally accepted in Australia:

http://griffithreview.com/edition-19-re-imagining-australia/life-in-translation

I'm sure it happens. I'm just calling BS on there being a considerable amount of Russian doctors driving taxis in Australia.

In all my life, I've never met a Russian doctor driving a cab in Canada.

mrzuzzo
31-08-2013, 19:41
You may quote all the WHO surveys you like; the WHO is a UN agency that is filled with the likes of Mr. Zuzzo, TR and Benedikt who have a rabid bias against the US

Blah blah blah, you're right America is the best country in the world and any statistical or factual evidence against it is clearly a result of rabid bias against the US.

:rant:

yakspeare
31-08-2013, 19:51
I'm sure it happens. I'm just calling BS on there being a considerable amount of Russian doctors driving taxis in Australia.

In all my life, I've never met a Russian doctor driving a cab in Canada.

Guess what I do now for a crust? Actually the third time I have done cabs part time. So I know my fair share of cabbies. The largest in our fleet are the Indians, then Arabs then the Serbs/Croats/Russians and Hungarians. Many have impressive degrees but are driving cabs.

For me? Doing it a few days a week while I do my language study and start nursing in October. I might go into medical imagery after or perhaps go onto being a doctor. Time will tell.

RL, no I wasn't a doctor in Russia, but I am the equilavent in Russia already of a vrach skoree pomoshee. Except you would rather have me treating you as the standard in Russia is quite appalling in that area.

yakspeare
31-08-2013, 19:59
I have heard about Israel and Germany in this context very often.



Yak, though you wear the doctor's white robe, as I understand you never made it as a doctor in Russia? :)

And you never quite made it in the army but feel to comment on it...

Israel and Germany are closer to this part of the world, obviously. Israel is quite at the cutting edge of experimental medicine, much like the US. My father in law is being treated there at the moment. Many European countries have fine programs too. Russian surgery actually has a pretty good reputation compared to other forms of medicine. Despite my issues with medicine overall in Russia, that is an area I have little concern about-probably because of the soviet era and surgeon manifested ego and elitism and strive for perfection. If you know any surgeons you would know what I am talking about. If there is a caste system in medicine, surgeons would consider themselves the princes of it.

Russian Lad
31-08-2013, 20:07
And you never quite made it in the army but feel to comment on it...

Sure, but I don't claim many Russian former army colonels or generals very often end up as cabbies in Australia.:)
Well, going to the army as a soldier back then was a waste of time and even a way of getting yourself killed in Chechnya if you got really unlucky, not sure how things stand now.


If you know any surgeons you would know what I am talking about. If there is a caste system in medicine, surgeons would consider themselves the princes of it.

My grandfather was a surgeon, went all the way to Berlin during the war.

Why do you need to earn a crust if you draw a military pension, well over 1K dollars per month if I remember correctly?

yakspeare
31-08-2013, 20:23
Because I am living in Australia, not Russia. One of the more expensive places to live as a general rule. I only have a half pension but I am in the process of appealling to get a full one and recognition of veteran status. Will take a few months but if succesful my pension will double or if a vet, triple. So worth the time to be back here. I am fairly confident but the process is quite long, took my dad 3 years but I think mine will be much quicker. Plus 13 years of backpay:)))

Russian Lad
31-08-2013, 20:31
Because I am living in Australia, not Russia. One of the more expensive places to live as a general rule. I only have a half pension but I am in the process of appealling to get a full one and recognition of veteran status. Will take a few months but if succesful my pension will double or if a vet, triple. So worth the time to be back here. I am fairly confident but the process is quite long, took my dad 3 years but I think mine will be much quicker. Plus 13 years of backpay))

If I were you I would go to Thailand probably. I am considering it myself, damn tired of Russia. A 60 square meters condo in Pattaya, clean as a surgery room, with a plazma screen on the wall - only 480 US dollars per month, everything else is quite cheap*. Either Thailand or Dominicana.
*
http://pattayacondoguide.com/condo-search-result.html?forsale_rent=rent&sortby=DESC&search_bedrooms=&search_bathrooms=&sliderSaleprice=500000%3B25000000&sliderPricePerSqm=1000%3B300000&sliderRent=5000%3B12000&sliderSize=20%3B500&sliderFloor=1%3B100&btsubmit=Search&txtsearchindex=

yakspeare
31-08-2013, 20:37
Anything is possible, depends on Mrs...

We don't intend to stay long in each place, hence my nursing course which I can use around the world into places teaching won't get me as an aussie. If my book gets published well I can live a different dream, till then I need something more...being overseas so long has started to make my qualifications a bit dated.

Nobbynumbnuts
31-08-2013, 21:53
If I were you I would go to Thailand probably. I am considering it myself, damn tired of Russia. A 60 square meters condo in Pattaya, clean as a surgery room, with a plazma screen on the wall - only 480 US dollars per month, everything else is quite cheap*. Either Thailand or Dominicana.
*
http://pattayacondoguide.com/condo-search-result.html?forsale_rent=rent&sortby=DESC&search_bedrooms=&search_bathrooms=&sliderSaleprice=500000%3B25000000&sliderPricePerSqm=1000%3B300000&sliderRent=5000%3B12000&sliderSize=20%3B500&sliderFloor=1%3B100&btsubmit=Search&txtsearchindex=

Depending on what your looking for of course but Pattaya is a sh*t hole. You'll be surrounded by Russians so no escape from the rodina and and the worlds low-lifes. If you want to go to Thailand-anywhere but Pattaya. ;)

robertmf
31-08-2013, 21:58
Depending on what your looking for of course but Pattaya is a sh*t hole. You'll be surrounded by Russians so no escape from the rodina and and the worlds low-lifes. If you want to go to Russia-anywhere but Pattaya. ;)

:rofl: :9456: Wouldn't that be the little black joke on *RL* :bong:

:nut:

Nobbynumbnuts
31-08-2013, 22:03
:rofl: :9456: Wouldn't that be the little black joke on *RL* :bong:

:nut:

No Robert, not suggesting Russians are low-lifes.
Just saying if he's fed up with Russia he ain't going to escape it to Pattaya. Where the world's sex tourists, pedophiles, criminals, wont-works all hang out. ;)

robertmf
31-08-2013, 22:12
Just saying if he's fed up with Russia he ain't going to escape it to Pattaya.

:goblin: exactly

yakspeare
31-08-2013, 23:17
Pattaya is not a sh*thole it is a sailor's port and been so for hundreds of years (ramped up in the vietnam war)...still, I wouldn't visit there again unless I have a terminal disease, 3 months to live and then in that case I would retire there.

Nobbynumbnuts
31-08-2013, 23:42
Pattaya is not a sh*thole it is a sailor's port and been so for hundreds of years (ramped up in the vietnam war)...still, I wouldn't visit there again unless I have a terminal disease, 3 months to live and then in that case I would retire there.

Pattaya is a sh*t hole. A tourist trap with the scum of the earth hanging out there
It's past as a small fishing village, long gone and forgotten.
Phuket is fast going the same way.
I lived in Thailand for 4 years. If you feel you'd like to quote wiki to me, go ahead, be my guest! :D

yakspeare
01-09-2013, 00:37
No need mr pretentious. Boohoo, you personally don't like Pattaya, it ain't your cup of tea. Doesn't make it a sh*thole. It has developed from a very seedy place but with loads of character to a place with more upmarket offerings slightly less seedy. Suitable for certain demographics that obviously doesn't include whinging poms.

Have more respect for a place that people work and live or did a shemale knock you back and now you're all butt hurt? Excuse the pun.

Nobbynumbnuts
01-09-2013, 00:43
No need mr pretentious. Boohoo, you personally don't like Pattaya, it ain't your cup of tea. Doesn't make it a sh*thole. It has developed from a very seedy place but with loads of character to a place with more upmarket offerings slightly less seedy. Suitable for certain demographics that obviously doesn't include whinging poms.

Have more respect for a place that people work and live or did a shemale knock you back and now you're all butt hurt? Excuse the pun.

PMSL :D
You'd fit in nicely. Pattaya's full of bullsh*tters! :rofl:

Alan65
01-09-2013, 01:47
Pattaya is a sh*t hole. A tourist trap with the scum of the earth hanging out there
It's past as a small fishing village, long gone and forgotten.
Phuket is fast going the same way.
I lived in Thailand for 4 years. If you feel you'd like to quote wiki to me, go ahead, be my guest! :D

Thailand as a whole is f()cked and it is all down to the Thais.

Only in Thailand would they dig sand off of the beaches that people go there for to use in concrete.....Amazing Thailand.

Nobbynumbnuts
01-09-2013, 02:14
Thailand as a whole is f()cked and it is all down to the Thais.

Only in Thailand would they dig sand off of the beaches that people go there for to use in concrete.....Amazing Thailand.

I get the headlines of Bangkok Post, Pattaya News and a few other English language papers in my inbox everyday.
I'm regularly stunned by the goings on.
This always makes good reading:
http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/forum/112-pattaya-news-clippings/

Nobbynumbnuts
01-09-2013, 02:24
This was my pick of the weeks news. Pattaya is a zoo!

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/663911-pakistanis-rented-car-stolen-by-two-ladyboys-from-pattaya-love-motel/

btw which ones Pink?
01-09-2013, 03:17
I call BS on that one.

Its true alright! That's why Russians in Australia are known to refer to the place as "the authoritarian comunist state of Australia." It's more regulated on many things than even Russia.

penka
09-09-2013, 01:55
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/american-dream-not-think-173054394.html

robertmf
09-09-2013, 02:12
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/american-dream-not-think-173054394.html

:whisper: Actually, owning a house is just a pain in the arse without a woman.

penka
09-09-2013, 02:24
:whisper: Actually, owning a house is just a pain in the arse without a woman.



Men can clean, too:)

Russian Lad
09-09-2013, 03:03
Depending on what your looking for of course but Pattaya is a sh*t hole. You'll be surrounded by Russians so no escape from the rodina and and the worlds low-lifes. If you want to go to Thailand-anywhere but Pattaya.

I didn't say I want to go to Pattaya. Jomtien is not exactly Pattaya, is it? I mean, it is kind on the outskirts?
Anyway, I would like a quiet place with a view on the water and with reliable Internet, rather close to civilization. There is plenty of that there, as I understand. Prices seem to be like 2-3 times cheaper for quite many things than here in SPb, the weather is good, the crime rate is relatively low, the visa is easy - it is way too inviting.:) Having some Russians around will be ok, just as long as there aren't herds of them like here.:) Saint Pete is really overcrowded, just like Moscow. I live in a goddamn ghetto here with a boggy joke for the weather for like 8 months out of 12.


This was my pick of the weeks news. Pattaya is a zoo!

Stay away from ladyboys. I already got it, Nobby.:) Wonder if those ladyboys are not afraid of Russians themselves. :cool:

Jack17
09-09-2013, 04:35
Stay away from ladyboys. I already got it

The question is, does Nobby follow his own advice? :rolleyes:

Russian Lad
09-09-2013, 04:37
The question is, does Nobby follow his own advice?

Frankly, I was thinking about it as well...:eh:

Jack17
09-09-2013, 04:44
I know; he does seem to have an unhealthy obsession with the seamier side of Thai life - not to mention a keen familiarity with it. ;)

Nobbynumbnuts
09-09-2013, 10:19
I know; he does seem to have an unhealthy obsession with the seamier side of Thai life - not to mention a keen familiarity with it. ;)

You haven't traveled much have you Jack? :D

Nobbynumbnuts
09-09-2013, 10:35
Frankly, I was thinking about it as well...:eh:

Someone who gets into bar fights and dates hookers needs to do plenty of research before going to Pattaya. Have a close look at the links I gave you and take note of the trouble that awaits stupid tourists in Pattaya....just sayin' ;) :D

Kraven Morehead
09-09-2013, 11:22
I think the point of the article is that the American Dream is dying. The ability as compared in the past for someone with nothing to achieve greatness is much less.

Education used to affordable and gave a poor person the ability to move up an economical bracket.
http://www.economist.com/node/21564414

Unfortunately with Education and Medical Expenses rising faster than inflation, the death of manufacturing sector and its high paying middle class jobs, American dream has been significantly hurt.

Canada has been blessed with abundant amount resources per capita (they cannot move these jobs to China). So it is still possible for a poor Canadian to find a good paying job in the resource industry.

Biggest hardship that the USA has, is bloated bureaucracy from costly legal system and bipartisan government which holding the traditional strength of innovation and production per hour. US produces too many lawyers, not enough Engineers and Scentists. But look who runs government? How do lawyers profit? Producing laws which create bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is non value added.

http://www.economist.com/node/13496638

Russian Lad
09-09-2013, 11:54
Someone who gets into bar fights and dates hookers needs to do plenty of research before going to Pattaya. Have a close look at the links I gave you and take note of the trouble that awaits stupid tourists in Pattaya....just sayin'

Ok-ok, daddy, I will be a good boy:)
But like I said, I don't want to live in a crowded place.

robertmf
21-09-2013, 00:04
Russian GP medical advice is one step above voodoo.

Guess where Raisa G. (R.I.P.) went for treatment :question:

:whisper: HINT it wasn't the local Moscow polyclinic


RBTH FACT OF THE DAY - On the 20th of September 1999 Raisa Maximovna Gorbacheva, wife of Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev, passed away aged 67 at the Mnster University Hospital in Germany, where she was receiving treatment for leukaemia. Gorbacheva is known for her contributions to the preservation of Russian cultural heritage, the fostering of new talent, and the development of treatment programs for sick children.

Image: Raisa Gorbachyova during the state visit 1989 in Bonn, Germany. Source: Elke Wetzig

VicY
22-09-2013, 19:09
Oh wow, I didn't even realise that leukaemia was supposed to be treated at a local polyclinic :p :p :p

Russian Lad
22-09-2013, 21:26
Guess where Raisa G. (R.I.P.) went for treatment

HINT it wasn't the local Moscow polyclinic

And guess what? She died. Try to unearth more assertive examples.

Potty
22-09-2013, 21:56
In Russia diagnostics of hematologic diseases are still in big жопа. 70% of patients who come ( from regions) to Moscow for treatment have the final stage. In Gorbachev time she couldn't get proper diagnostics and treatment in her country at all. Even in Moscow. I guess when she arrived in Germany she was already done.

robertmf
22-09-2013, 22:08
And guess what? She died. Try to unearth more assertive examples.

I am assuming she would have access to the very best care offered in All-Russias - yet she went to Germany for treatment & hospice.

What could be more assertive than that :question:

I suspect she would be alive today if she had sought Western medicine sooner.

:whisper: I don't even want to consider Russia treatment of conditions like childhood leukemia.

Russian Lad
22-09-2013, 22:18
I am assuming she would have access to the very best care offered in All-Russias - yet she went to Germany for treatment & hospice.

What could be more assertive than that

I suspect she would be alive today if she had sought Western medicine sooner.

I don't even want to consider Russia treatment of conditions like childhood leukemia.

History doesn't operate with ifs. She went to the West for treatment and died there, end of story.
I don't know much about leukemia, but I know for sure about cancer now. One of my friend's mother has cancer, he has money and took her to Israel, while waiting for the results from a Russian clinic. The result - he spent 100 dollars in Russia for the correct diagnosis and treatment prescription and 9 (nine) thousand dollars in Israel for the same. He ended up with identical diagnosis and identical treatment prescriptions in both cases.

Potty
22-09-2013, 22:39
In case of leukemia some kinds of radiation therapy and surgeries are not available in Russia. Also often hematopoietic stem cell transplantation :eek: from unrelated donor is possible only abroad. Germany, Israel.

robertmf
22-09-2013, 22:50
hematopoietic

:bowdown: Where did you learn that word :question:


Haematopoiesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Potty
22-09-2013, 22:52
:bowdown: Where did you learn that word :question:


Haematopoiesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haematopoiesis)

Трансплантация костного мозга.

Potty
22-09-2013, 22:53
Hematopoietic stem cell transplantation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia