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molly picon
12-08-2013, 10:54
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/12/i_love_and_hate_dating_russian_men/

How is Russia showing up in the Western press so much? What's goin' on?

FatAndy
12-08-2013, 11:36
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/12/i_love_and_hate_dating_russian_men/

How is Russia showing up in the Western press so much? What's goin' on?
We are so cool... ;) What else to speak about?

xSnoofovich
12-08-2013, 12:17
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/12/i_love_and_hate_dating_russian_men/

How is Russia showing up in the Western press so much? What's goin' on?

new cold war. very bad at the top....

anyways, this article is fun, but, in general, i hate stories that refer to russians, or any nation or people for that matter, as one collective unit.

Sana
12-08-2013, 14:25
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/12/i_love_and_hate_dating_russian_men/

How is Russia showing up in the Western press so much? What's goin' on?

Interesting article, btw. Diana Bruke was born in St. Pete but raised in NYC. She has a dual citizenship and what if those Russian suitors were so "attentive" to her just because she has two passports?

And you personally, do you like Russian men judging by the qualities she describes in the article?

rusmeister
12-08-2013, 17:01
Well, the reading was painful. The only thing worse was the comments. The article exuded worldly in-depth knowledge of and superiority to medieval, brutish Russian men.

She talked about "moving in" (minus marriage, of course) with all of the deep wisdom characteristic of 24-year olds (even if she's thirty, I saw no sign of it). The fact that "moving in" probably means "moving out" in three to five years is still in her future. The lonely and childless old age (or single motherhood) - still further ahead.

When you're twenty-two, life means partying and moving from man to man (or woman to woman) forever. Inconveniences like ED, menopause, getting too old and tired to go clubbing and partying, happen to other people, and children - they just get in the way of "having a good time", anyway.

By the time the aged feminist begins to suspect that feminism has betrayed everyone - both women and men - in going from just goals like equal pay for equal work to the insanity of trying to erase the fundamental differences of the sexes (which they foolishly call "genders", now), it's far too late.

molly picon
12-08-2013, 17:25
I agree with Rus that it wasn't the most enlightening essay. I posted it here because I was surprised to see the Russian male represented in the popular American press, however crudely.

Her experiences were obviously filtered and exaggerated for her article. I did think her claim that men run up to her in the street in the manner of a 19th century nobleman was funny- I suppose she's referring to the use of the formal "you"? This happens everywhere minus the formal address, though mostly to young women.

As for me, Sana, I don't recognize anything specific to Russian men in the article. I'm married to a Russian man, but our meeting and courtship happened in America and, as far as I am concerned, was absolutely the same as what might have happened with an American. The writer doesn't seem to have moved past the initial courtship phase with anyone, so I'll end that there.

Sana
12-08-2013, 18:20
I personally don't agree with her perception of Russian men. To me in her article they all behave like gigolos /Alfonses.
I may have grown too old though not to be able to notice how the things have changed in this respect....(how our Russian men have changed) since I last dated one.

rusmeister
12-08-2013, 21:14
I agree with Rus that it wasn't the most enlightening essay. I posted it here because I was surprised to see the Russian male represented in the popular American press, however crudely.

Her experiences were obviously filtered and exaggerated for her article. I did think her claim that men run up to her in the street in the manner of a 19th century nobleman was funny- I suppose she's referring to the use of the formal "you"? This happens everywhere minus the formal address, though mostly to young women.

As for me, Sana, I don't recognize anything specific to Russian men in the article. I'm married to a Russian man, but our meeting and courtship happened in America and, as far as I am concerned, was absolutely the same as what might have happened with an American. The writer doesn't seem to have moved past the initial courtship phase with anyone, so I'll end that there.

Well, I note the venue it was published in (Salon) and its audience, which is founded on the hedonists of San Francisco, so the article doesn't surprise. Like I said, 25-year old journalism for those that are trying to stay 25 forever.

I am skeptical, though, even in Russia, of the extent to which either party sees the relationship as courtship. Would that it were so more often than it is!
But to that author, marriage is "for dinosaurs". She seems to have no clue as to why mankind developed the institution.

andymackem
13-08-2013, 10:39
Not for the first time, when reading an article about dating, I was left with a fairly strong feeling that I wouldn't date the writer if she was the last woman on Earth. Generally speaking, any of these pieces will tell us more about the author than the subject. And articles which start from the premise of 'dating [nationality] is like ...' are utterly pointless. Relationships are formed between people, not passports.

AstarD
13-08-2013, 10:58
And you think a culture and all that goes with it to form a person has nothing to do with what dating that person would be like?

For example, if you give an even number of flowers to a Russian girl. Does that have nothing to do with her passport?

rusmeister
13-08-2013, 11:18
And you think a culture and all that goes with it to form a person has nothing to do with what dating that person would be like?

for example, if you give an even number of flowers to a Russian girl. Does that have nothing to do with her passport?

That's not the issue, as I see it, Astar.
It's an unsufferable superiority over Russians, it is a prideful attitude of superiority over supposed barbarism, when Russians only take for granted only what all of humanity has always understood.

Sana
13-08-2013, 11:49
Where is superiority over Russians in her article? On the contrary, she says she is torn between two cultures, When she dates a Russian boy she notices a difference compared to dating an American one. When she dates an American boy, she recalls how it was good with a Russian suitor.

AstarD
13-08-2013, 11:54
That's not the issue, as I see it, Astar.
It's an unsufferable superiority over Russians, it is a prideful attitude of superiority over supposed barbarism, when Russians only take for granted only what all of humanity has always understood.
That's not the issue as I see it, Rusmeister.

It's an unsufferable superiority over Americans, it is a prideful attitude of superiority over supposed barbarism, when Americans only take for granted only what all of humanity has always understood.

andymackem
13-08-2013, 13:37
And you think a culture and all that goes with it to form a person has nothing to do with what dating that person would be like?

For example, if you give an even number of flowers to a Russian girl. Does that have nothing to do with her passport?

So, if I'm correct in assuming that you are American, I can conclude that you are exactly the same as any other American I might encounter (hey, it's the same passport) and draw wide-ranging conclusions about your character and personality from that alone? Or would you rather I treated you as an individual?

AstarD
13-08-2013, 14:08
No. That's not what culture is. Culture does, however, form a great deal about a person that is both seen and unseen. And if you don't know the culture in advance, you could run into a lot of problems with that person that you wouldn't have with someone from your own culture.

It doesn't mean that all people who have the same passport are the same, but it does mean that generally they have grown up in the same culture as others with that same passport, which has social and behavioral consequences.

mrzuzzo
13-08-2013, 14:54
I, too, found the author somewhat repulsive. But then again, she is just doing her job and catering to a specific audience.

I think this thread needs a picture of the person who wrote the article:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/545231_613359336097_451484438_n.jpg

AstarD
13-08-2013, 15:00
You find her repulsive to look at?

mrzuzzo
13-08-2013, 15:02
You find her repulsive to look at?

Not at all, I found her repulsive from reading the article.

Sana
13-08-2013, 15:35
So, if I'm correct in assuming that you are American, I can conclude that you are exactly the same as any other American I might encounter (hey, it's the same passport) and draw wide-ranging conclusions about your character and personality from that alone? Or would you rather I treated you as an individual?

Yes, an individual approach is great. But it is still better to learn a bit about another culture. An even number of flowers would be offending for a Russian girl as it is given for funerals. Pragmatism of American boys would be also a little bit strange for a Russian girl. For example, I have heard one funny story: an American girl and a guy have been dating for a short time. They meet a Russian friend and go to a party. On their way it gets windy and after thinking for a while the guy reluctantly offers his jacket to the girl. The Russian boy also offers his jacket to the girl. After thinking for quite a while the girl reluctantly accepts the jacket from the American friend saying that she will.......pay for it a dollar or she will buy beer for it for her American friend next time. There are lots of peculiarities of this kind and usually a Russian girl is really perplexed after her American boyfriend does not consider her a girlfriend after dating her and even sleeping with her for sometime. That's the story which I have also heard from someone who dated an American person. So I basically partly agree with a few differences described in the article. But not with the described Russian men qualities.

FatAndy
13-08-2013, 15:55
I, too, found the author somewhat repulsive. But then again, she is just doing her job and catering to a specific audience.

I think this thread needs a picture of the person who wrote the article:
Nice. But the theme of t!t$ isn't disclosed... :11629:

andymackem
13-08-2013, 16:47
Yes, an individual approach is great. But it is still better to learn a bit about another culture. An even number of flowers would be offending for a Russian girl as it is given for funerals. Pragmatism of American boys would be also a little bit strange for a Russian girl.

I'm aware of the issue about the number of flowers, but anytime I buy flowers in Russia the woman in the shop asks me who I'm buying for, why and - around March 8, at least - whether I like the recipient(s) or whether it's a token gesture. The likelihood of me buying a dozen roses to form a single bouquet in Moscow is therefore pretty slim unless (presumably) I specify that it's a funeral bouquet.

AstarD
13-08-2013, 16:49
Flowers was just one example. There are others that are fairly Russian specific.

VicY
13-08-2013, 19:25
That's not the issue as I see it, Rusmeister.

It's an unsufferable superiority over Americans, it is a prideful attitude of superiority over supposed barbarism, when Americans only take for granted only what all of humanity has always understood.

Oh for god's sake, I come across similar articles all the time - often written by Americans, sometimes other westerners. That feeling of western superiority and arrogance is always there, it oozes through every pore...
I know Russians post similar stuff about the US, for example, and I don't know who started it first but it certainly goes both ways. Anyway, I don't think I'd be too mistaken if I said that at least 90% of stuff written about Russia in the English-language sources is negative.

rusmeister
13-08-2013, 21:24
That's not the issue as I see it, Rusmeister.

It's an unsufferable superiority over Americans, it is a prideful attitude of superiority over supposed barbarism, when Americans only take for granted only what all of humanity has always understood.

You could try to reverse my words if you had some kind of direct analogy to which they fit. But you don't. Humanity has NOT always understood sodomic relations to be good and normal. Quite the opposite.

Your words don't fly.

rusmeister
13-08-2013, 21:45
Where is superiority over Russians in her article? On the contrary, she says she is torn between two cultures, When she dates a Russian boy she notices a difference compared to dating an American one. When she dates an American boy, she recalls how it was good with a Russian suitor.




Having grown up in New York, I had taken for granted that people were always striving for something, or at least striving to be striving for something. In Russia, most of the guys I met were engaged in some sort of dubious import/export business


for anyone who had any semblance of ambition, the goal was to learn English, the golden ticket to getting out.


The American teachers at my language school had a phrase to describe dating Russian men. It was “No Means Yes, and Yes Means Anal.”


Not surprisingly, the attitude toward rape in Russia is still depressingly medieval.


treating female sexuality like it’s something that only afflicts nymphomaniacs.


They bite your neck and bruise your arms for the same reason that tigers claw on the trees to mark their spot: to show other beasts of the jungle that you are taken


“friends-with-benefits”– a term I often struggled to deconstruct to groups of confused Russian males

There's also the language of "patriarchal" that peppers the article.

In all fairness, she sounds a note of counterpoint towards the end:

but when I look around at our hyper-individualized relationships, at our “you’re not obligated to anyone in any way” mentality, it seems brutal and barbaric.
and

I can’t help but feel like there’s a certain honor in the Russian man’s understanding that with great sex comes great responsibility, an ethical code that we in the West have almost totally lost.

But it's drowned out by the tone of the rest of the article.

BabyFirefly
13-08-2013, 21:50
Oh for god's sake, I come across similar articles all the time - often written by Americans, sometimes other westerners. That feeling of western superiority and arrogance is always there, it oozes through every pore...
I know Russians post similar stuff about the US, for example, and I don't know who started it first but it certainly goes both ways. Anyway, I don't think I'd be too mistaken if I said that at least 90% of stuff written about Russia in the English-language sources is negative.

I can say the same thing about Russian press.

Stupid, shallow article. She's not dating a nationality, she's dating a few guys who happen to be like this. To say "what it's like to date a Russian" is just silly. However, I've seen a lot of these "Russian men are X/Y/Z" way written by "Russian" women who were raised almost entirely abroad and just visit Moscow or St. Pete on occasion, always keeping themselves away enough from the country to not be stuck to it but close enough they can use their nationality as a point of interest in the eyes of Americans.

Russian Lad
13-08-2013, 22:06
I know Russians post similar stuff about the US, for example, and I don't know who started it first but it certainly goes both ways. Anyway, I don't think I'd be too mistaken if I said that at least 90% of stuff written about Russia in the English-language sources is negative.

Yeah, that's true. A lot of mutual mud-slinging without the real desire to learn the culture and the language. Plenty of fools on both sides of the fence.

Sana
14-08-2013, 12:47
There's also the language of "patriarchal" that peppers the article.

In all fairness, she sounds a note of counterpoint towards the end:

and


But it's drowned out by the tone of the rest of the article.

Still I can't see superiority over Russian men in her words. She is so true about certain things.... If it is the case, it is the case with us, and ....even with American guys who do not feel awkward to be "transparent" in front of a girl and say honestly how they make their own living, or what kind of business they run. While Russian men: - "Oh...................well"

Why should we lie about our reality ?

You can't know, you are not a Russian girl to learn such things about Russian men and experience it from them. It is impossible to judge this being a male.

As I mentioned before, I partly agree with her descriptions. And she also likes Russian men in her own way.

yakspeare
14-08-2013, 15:03
Well to be honest and fair, it isn't any surprise reports on Russia are negative in the west.

Russia has some wonderful aspects but they are all a legacy from the past.

Now America stands for something, you might disagree with it, but it is there. You can love or hate its intervention in other countries etc but we also have Russia teemed up with Iran, Syria, China etc

Before communism you had imperial russia with tsars, pomp and pagentry, winter palace and a score of poets, writers, composers etc. A rich history indeed but long ago. And not really relevant yo thoughts on russia now.

Under communism, russia (soviet union) stood for something too. Again you didn't have to agree with it, but enough doubt was sown that allowed college campuses and others to swallow the propaganda (just as some do with america today).

You had brotherhood of man, ideas of supposed equality, Russia was certainly much safer and the people were shielded from a lot of world problems and political upheavel. You had the space program, mass factories and a mighty and feared military machine. Plus investment in education, health care and technology.

Now Russia is a shadow of those two systems and stands for little. It has an identity crisis and about one thing. Oil. Oh and oligarchs.

Putin-and I am a critic of him in general- has really been the sole figure to try and show Russia stands for something. Not quite sure what it is-I think a potrayal of strength but really independence-that Russia doesn't take sh*t from anyone and that Russia needs to return to some glory days-but can't decide out of the two previous systems it should emulate. There really isn't an attempt to find a third new system

Nobbynumbnuts
14-08-2013, 15:46
......Putin-and I am a critic of him in general- has really been the sole figure to try and show Russia stands for something. Not quite sure what it is-I think a potrayal of strength but really independence-that Russia doesn't take sh*t from anyone and that Russia needs to return to some glory days-but can't decide out of the two previous systems it should emulate. There really isn't an attempt to find a third new system

Russians generally speaking are apolitical. They are more concerned that their leader is strong and seen to be standing up to the west. That's about it. They hark back to a time when they were a proud superpower (albeit a military one)
As long as their leader gives them their regular fix of 'blacking America's eye' they have little interest in what's going on meantime.
The furor over Russia's Gay Propaganda laws plays right into the governments hands. The more the west complains, the more Putin looks strong. He knew exactly what he was doing when introducing the laws.

FatAndy
14-08-2013, 15:51
Well to be honest and fair, it isn't any surprise reports on Russia are negative in the west.

Russia has some wonderful aspects but they are all a legacy from the past.

Now America stands for something, you might disagree with it, but it is there. You can love or hate its intervention in other countries etc but we also have Russia teemed up with Iran, Syria, China etc

Before communism you had imperial russia with tsars, pomp and pagentry, winter palace and a score of poets, writers, composers etc. A rich history indeed but long ago. And not really relevant yo thoughts on russia now.

Under communism, russia (soviet union) stood for something too. Again you didn't have to agree with it, but enough doubt was sown that allowed college campuses and others to swallow the propaganda (just as some do with america today).

You had brotherhood of man, ideas of supposed equality, Russia was certainly much safer and the people were shielded from a lot of world problems and political upheavel. You had the space program, mass factories and a mighty and feared military machine. Plus investment in education, health care and technology.

Now Russia is a shadow of those two systems and stands for little. It has an identity crisis and about one thing. Oil. Oh and oligarchs.

Putin-and I am a critic of him in general- has really been the sole figure to try and show Russia stands for something. Not quite sure what it is-I think a potrayal of strength but really independence-that Russia doesn't take sh*t from anyone and that Russia needs to return to some glory days-but can't decide out of the two previous systems it should emulate. There really isn't an attempt to find a third new system
Yak, communism never existed :)

yakspeare
14-08-2013, 16:01
Yes I know that old line. Communist party, communist government, followers of communist doctrine but because they fell short in a few areas communism didn't exist. Whatever.

You could say the same of fascism, as they didn't achieve their goals of society either, or democracy if a freedom is limited in just one area. It is a weak argument.

And under Lenin's war communism they basically got there with almost eliminating money and creation of barter etc but it was such a disaster and productivity dived that they had to reverse much of it.

VicY
14-08-2013, 16:20
Russians generally speaking are apolitical. They are more concerned that their leader is strong and seen to be standing up to the west. That's about it. They hark back to a time when they were a proud superpower (albeit a military one)
As long as their leader gives them their regular fix of 'blacking America's eye' they have little interest in what's going on meantime.
The furor over Russia's Gay Propaganda laws plays right into the governments hands. The more the west complains, the more Putin looks strong. He knew exactly what he was doing when introducing the laws.

The west would do much better if they just shut the f*** up...In that case some of those alleged "rights" might finally surface in Russia (although I am not sure as to what particular rights there might be, the only one coming to mind is the right to marry).

Nobbynumbnuts
14-08-2013, 16:33
The wes would do mucu better if they just shut the f*** up.........

If the west were to stop complaining it could spell the end of Putin....;)

robertmf
14-08-2013, 16:48
If the west were to stop complaining it could spell the end of Putin....;)

:iagree: Except for media frothing at Snowden and now gay laws, Russia isn't on the West radar. Especially in the US.

Due to short attention spans, even Snowden has disappeared from the media.

FatAndy
14-08-2013, 16:53
Yes I know that old line. Communist party, communist government, followers of communist doctrine but because they fell short in a few areas communism didn't exist. Whatever.
Why old? Till the destruction of USSR communism was described as a goal, but what existed in reality was "developed socialism" and it was stated in CPSU reports, laws and state documents. No one claimed communism is built ;) Read documents.
http://www.hist.msu.ru/ER/Etext/cnst1977.htm
http://publ.lib.ru/ARCHIVES/K/KPSS/_KPSS.html

VicY
14-08-2013, 16:53
If the west were to stop complaining it could spell the end of Putin....;)

LOL, you're free to believe whatever you like!

Nobbynumbnuts
14-08-2013, 17:11
:iagree: Except for media frothing at Snowden and now gay laws, Russia isn't on the West radar. Especially in the US.

Due to short attention spans, even Snowden has disappeared from the media.



The point of my post was not what's on the agenda in the western media but what's on the agenda in Russia.

VicY
14-08-2013, 17:14
Now Russia is a shadow of those two systems and stands for little. It has an identity crisis and about one thing. Oil. Oh and oligarchs.


This is a funny statement but then again no surprise coming from a Westerner.

Please enlighten me on what it is so incredible America stands for that makes Russia a mosquito on the face of this earth. I may have missed something...

Nobbynumbnuts
14-08-2013, 17:21
LOL, you're free to believe whatever you like!

I know!! Isn't it W-O-N-D-E-R-F-U-L!! :SwoonLoveSmiley:

VicY
14-08-2013, 17:38
I know!! Isn't it W-O-N-D-E-R-F-U-L!! :SwoonLoveSmiley:

Absolutely! And I'm free to believe what I like :D

Sana
14-08-2013, 18:06
OK, I am not a westerner. I am Russian. But I agree that now Russia stands for very little.

Why not agree that we do live in the third world country? What is so shameful to admit this fact? Is Mexico for instance ashamed to be the third world country? Such countries are maybe striving for standing for something but I would be curious to learn at least one more third world country that do really try to call itself a superpower in almost all facets.

And I also don't understand such people who try to oust from the country those who disagree with things. If I am annoyed with a number of issues here in Russia and try to talk them over, discuss them...., it does not mean that I should leave my own country. The approach of ousting people from their mother lands because they obviously admit that they live in the third world country, is outrageously incorrect.

Nobbynumbnuts
14-08-2013, 18:15
Absolutely! And I'm free to believe what I like :D

Amen to that! ;)

VicY
14-08-2013, 18:29
OK, I am not a westerner. I am Russian. But I agree that now Russia stands for very little.

Why not agree that we do live in the third world country?

Because it's not.

Nobbynumbnuts
14-08-2013, 19:13
Because it's not.

The issue isn't if it is or if it ain't. I think if you step outside Moscow and St.Petes there's a lot that is not even second world about what you see. Infrastructure, health care, housing etc.
Which brings me back to another point, if you have a caring inclusive society, one that is genuinely concerned about the welfare of all citizens and not one that believes 'that's not my problem, mind your own business' perhaps the government would spend more time on solving these issues. It's a state of mind that works both ways.

Sana
14-08-2013, 19:51
Their state of mind is the particular sarcastic verse: "utrom maslom buterbrod - v golove, a kak narod..........i ikra ne lezet v rot" / (here VicY is laughing at the idea of helping people of her country implying that problems of people are not the king's business) - which is exactly the " not my business" approach of some people on this site and the Russian government and of those who do not consider our country to be the third world one. While it is common knowledge it is. Oh, and I feel dreadful of the idea how many VicY(s) we have with such a stagnated third world perception.
Until the state of mind changes, Russia will always remain the third world country.

VicY
14-08-2013, 19:58
Their state of mind is the particular sarcastic verse: "utrom maslom buterbrod - v golove, a kak narod..........i ikra ne lezet v rot" - which is exactly a "not my business" approach.


How does this verse exemplify the "not my business approach"??? I think you need to get your quotes right.

VicY
14-08-2013, 20:02
The issue isn't if it is or if it ain't. I think if you step outside Moscow and St.Petes there's a lot that is not even second world about what you see. Infrastructure, health care, housing etc.
Which brings me back to another point, if you have a caring inclusive society, one that is genuinely concerned about the welfare of all citizens and not one that believes 'that's not my problem, mind your own business' perhaps the government would spend more time on solving these issues. It's a state of mind that works both ways.

Nobby, I have been to many small cities and villages. As I repeatedly said, I'm a regular at my grandmother's house.
However, there is a lot to be said about defining a so-called "third world country". I absolutely don't think that one can liken Russia to the Philippines, Vietnam, India, Cambodia or even Thailand.

Nobbynumbnuts
14-08-2013, 20:08
Nobby, I have been to many small cities and villages. As I repeatedly said, I'm a regular at my grandmother's house.
However, there is a lot to be said about defining a so-called "third world country". I absolutely don't think that one can liken Russia to the Philippines, Vietnam, India, Cambodia or even Thailand.

I understand your point but there are issues which the government should be working a lot harder on in my view. Issues that definitely are not first world either. I'm sure you are aware of them.
Anyway, just saying..........;)

rusmeister
15-08-2013, 07:10
Still I can't see superiority over Russian men in her words. She is so true about certain things.... If it is the case, it is the case with us, and ....even with American guys who do not feel awkward to be "transparent" in front of a girl and say honestly how they make their own living, or what kind of business they run. While Russian men: - "Oh...................well"

Why should we lie about our reality ?

You can't know, you are not a Russian girl to learn such things about Russian men and experience it from them. It is impossible to judge this being a male.

As I mentioned before, I partly agree with her descriptions. And she also likes Russian men in her own way.

Well, I can't help what you can't see.
That you can't see that she says that Russian men do not strive for anything and have no ambition (unless they are trying to emigrate), are all anal rapists that are not concerned with their wive's sexual desires, and are confused and unable to understand your idea that sex can be merely a casual act between casual friends, as if it created no attachment, is remarkable.

No on suggests lying; I don't even think this confused young woman who thinks that there could be nothing more enlightened than her view is lying; I think she is just buried deep in self-deception, and pride over others seems to be a side effect of that.

As to not being able to judge Russian males, I think of all that I know, which is a lot more than you think I know, and have known for more than twenty years as an adult (how old are you now?), and how they would react to this characterization of them, and can only say that they, understanding themselves far better than any woman, even a Russian one, would send this woman "по-дальше".

My judgement is that she is the kind of woman, with the kind of morals, that finds, attracts, and accepts men of that description. She then thinks that is the sum of the Russian man. If she were active in a local church, for example, (or you can argue, a library or a charity or whatever), she would discover a completely different kind of man.

VicY
15-08-2013, 12:33
My judgement is that she is the kind of woman, with the kind of morals, that finds, attracts, and accepts men of that description. She then thinks that is the sum of the Russian man. If she were active in a local church, for example, (or you can argue, a library or a charity or whatever), she would discover a completely different kind of man.

+100.

I strongly believe that this is the way it works in many aspects of human communication, not just dating.

Sana
15-08-2013, 19:14
Well,

My judgement is that she is the kind of woman, with the kind of morals, that finds, attracts, and accepts men of that description. She then thinks that is the sum of the Russian man. If she were active in a local church, for example, (or you can argue, a library or a charity or whatever), she would discover a completely different kind of man.

We have a bit different reality in Russia. Many girls in Russia can't afford to study at universities and meet boys in libraries. Many are atheists and don't go to the Church. Very many, the majority of Russian girls of younger generation than I, are working class - middle class persons and can't do any charity,
Very many girls do meet guys in bars, pubs, disco clubs. The dating scene in such places is pretty much the same and the way as Bruke describes. I don't think Bruke is evil and an immoral personality. She is the product of her time.

What distracted me in particular years ago when I dated Russian boys was that they did not believe in the notion of friendship between a man and a woman. They would agree on being a friend of a girl only in case of "benefits" or just "benefits" without any friendship. And even now, if you ask a regular Russian man if he can be just a sincere friend of the woman he is attracted to physically, many and maybe the majority of them will answer "either friendship with benefits, benefits, or nothing at all." Not all of them, but there are too many of such men in Russia. To me it seems medieval. While it is absolutely natural to be a sincere friend of a foreign person, and he can have a beloved girlfriend, she will know about a female friend, and won't be jealous at all. There is a huge difference between western men and Russian ones, whether you want it or not.

robertmf
15-08-2013, 19:20
OK, I am not a westerner. I am Russian. But I agree that now Russia stands for very little.


:cry:

VicY
16-08-2013, 11:07
What distracted me in particular years ago when I dated Russian boys was that they did not believe in the notion of friendship between a man and a woman. They would agree on being a friend of a girl only in case of "benefits" or just "benefits" without any friendship. And even now, if you ask a regular Russian man if he can be just a sincere friend of the woman he is attracted to physically, many and maybe the majority of them will answer "either friendship with benefits, benefits, or nothing at all." Not all of them, but there are too many of such men in Russia. To me it seems medieval. While it is absolutely natural to be a sincere friend of a foreign person, and he can have a beloved girlfriend, she will know about a female friend, and won't be jealous at all. There is a huge difference between western men and Russian ones, whether you want it or not.

You really are either terribly naive or pretending to be so.

FatAndy
16-08-2013, 11:40
You really are either terribly naive or pretending to be so.
Is my feeling correct that there are 2+ persons writing under Sana's account ? ;) The language is rather different...

VicY
16-08-2013, 11:42
Is my feeling correct that there are 2+ persons writing under Sana's account ? ;) The language is rather different...

I have the same feeling ;)

Sana
16-08-2013, 12:45
Is my feeling correct that there are 2+ persons writing under Sana's account ? ;) The language is rather different...

Can you bring an example of the difference? ?.. at least two posts where you see the difference in language?

The one who suspects others in such a thing most probably has 2 + persons writing under his own account.
Moreover, some Russians who promised to show up at the get-together party did not appear at all, so obviously it is more reasonable to suspect them even admitting that under a profile of a woman there is a man or even a few men. And nobody saw you in the pub either, And I have always been laughing at VicY's posts. For some reason I find her posts very childish, maybe even stupid, when she fights against almost everybody here bringing only unreasonable and very silly arguments,
As to me, I am absolutely transparent here and many saw me in the pub and I am in the pics. The female friend who came over with me has never participated in any of these discussions, and not even going to,

Sometimes I modify my posts because I am often very busy and fail to notice silly mistakes while typing.

Sana
16-08-2013, 12:50
Again ..this weird trait of character of some Russians here to suspect others in being foreign spies or 2 + persons in one profile seems not only terribly naive but also really stupid and very typical to the Russian men with exactly a barbaric and medieval perception. It makes me only laugh at them.

yakspeare
16-08-2013, 14:13
I have never heard russian men saying they couldn't be friends with women but many didn't beven think to have female friends. Some of the guys I met and went shooting or fishing or banya or bbq orwhatever , were very much alpha male macho types into good times out in nature with the blokes, going to the football with the blokes, going to the pub with the blokes etc. They weren't the meterosexual type but "real men" and maybe they could be friends with girls but just never really thought about it. Probably thought that meant shoe shopping, sushi restaurants and art galleries.

But I met a LOT of women who kept insisting that women and men couldn't be friends. I heard this quite a bit. I had heaps of friends that were female, more so than men and this would often come up. For those not unterested in me, and there were plenty of those, I must have appeared some sort of alien to break this cardinal rule or they doubted my gender lol.

Sana
16-08-2013, 15:13
But I met a LOT of women who kept insisting that women and men couldn't be friends. I heard this quite a bit. I had heaps of friends that were female, more so than men and this would often come up. For those not unterested in me, and there were plenty of those, I must have appeared some sort of alien to break this cardinal rule or they doubted my gender lol.

There are lots and lots of females here who think there can't be friendship between a man and a woman. I have a few very good foreign friends who have girlfriends, and I have never thought of being more than friends with them. We have very nice conversations and very genuine friendship with their girlfriends either; their girlfriends would look at least silly if they were jealous. I can't for some reason have similar friendships with married Russian men. It is so unnatural for them and really not common here to make friends with a pretty woman without implications of being her lover. Their wives would be furious.
And you, do I understand you right that if a woman offered you to go fishing with her, you would agree? I mean any of those "macho" activities which you shared with males only.

yakspeare
16-08-2013, 15:26
Well I am not one of those types. Most of my friends are female. I went to the black sea with three girls, for instance, and stayed in the same room. They certainly only saw me as a friend but in this instance I was definitely checking them out in their bikinis etc. I wouldn't have said no. But I also would never of hit on them either snd screw things up.

But I have other female friends who are really just that and I could share a bed with them without even thinking of anything. No they aren't ugly. Just diffrrent relations.

I would happily go fishing with girls or banya ;) anything.

I am happy going to art galleries, opera, ballet and so on. Mkst australian males are not too dissimilar to russian men in this regard, I am the exception-more european in outlook.

FatAndy
16-08-2013, 15:32
I would happily go fishing with girls or banya ;) anything.
Yes, indeed, and washing BTW (C) ;)

Sana
16-08-2013, 15:54
I would happily go fishing with girls or banya ;) anything.

I am happy going to art galleries, opera, ballet and so on. .....

Yeah, it is a wonderful western attitude which I understand and like.

VicY
16-08-2013, 17:39
Well I am not one of those types. Most of my friends are female. I went to the black sea with three girls, for instance, and stayed in the same room. They certainly only saw me as a friend but in this instance I was definitely checking them out in their bikinis etc. I wouldn't have said no. But I also would never of hit on them either snd screw things up.

But I have other female friends who are really just that and I could share a bed with them without even thinking of anything. No they aren't ugly. Just diffrrent relations.

I would happily go fishing with girls or banya ;) anything.

I am happy going to art galleries, opera, ballet and so on. Mkst australian males are not too dissimilar to russian men in this regard, I am the exception-more european in outlook.

Indeed. How utterly progressive. And of course not forgetting to commend yourself on being soooo awwwweeesome!
You've just proven by your post that there is no real friendship between males and females in most cases.

Potty
16-08-2013, 17:50
When I was a student I spent every summer in our university sport camp in Anapa where often we slept together in one room with boys or even in one bed. Certainly they were my friends , and nothing ever happened in most times but I can say for sure that both boys and girls were turned on by each other. Мужчина и женщина наедине не будут читать Отче наш. Now I realize how crazy it was.

VicY
16-08-2013, 17:58
The one who suspects others in such a thing most probably has 2 + persons writing under his own account.
Moreover, some Russians who promised to show up at the get-together party did not appear at all, so obviously it is more reasonable to suspect them even admitting that under a profile of a woman there is a man or even a few men.


Yeah....some of them are monsters! :nut::mml:



And nobody saw you in the pub either, And I have always been laughing at VicY's posts. For some reason I find her posts very childish, maybe even stupid, when she fights against almost everybody here bringing only unreasonable and very silly arguments,


Oh my god....I'm mortified - Sana thinks my posts "silly and childish".
I think you might have some reading issues: I'm not the one "fighting with everybody", rather the other way around.
Who's "everybody", by the way?

Sana
16-08-2013, 17:58
Indeed. How utterly progressive. And of course not forgetting to commend yourself on being soooo awwwweeesome!
You've just proven by your post that there is no real friendship between males and females in most cases.

Oh......how very medieval and barbaric, very typical for a Russian female with such a narrow-mindedness like yours.....

VicY
16-08-2013, 18:00
Oh......how very medieval and barbaric, very typical for a Russian female with such a narrow-mindedness like yours.....

Oh wow...your mind is, of course, the broadest of all :hooray:

robertmf
16-08-2013, 18:02
:10806:


Originally Posted by Sana
Oh......how very medieval and barbaric, very typical for a Russian female with such a narrow-mindedness like yours.....

Originally Posted by VicY
Oh wow...your mind is, of course, the broadest of all

Potty
16-08-2013, 18:06
Robert, Why aren't your kittens growing?

Sana
16-08-2013, 18:22
:10806:

Robert, you better say whether you personally believe in a genuine friendship between a man and a woman, just friendship, nothing more than that?

Sana
16-08-2013, 18:24
[QUOTE=Potty;1204520]
Potti, lol, you were too young at the time....when you were at the camp.

If those male friends of mine did not have their girlfriends and remained the last males on earth, I still would not consider them more than just friends for me.

robertmf
16-08-2013, 18:43
Robert, you better say whether you personally believe in a genuine friendship between a man and a woman, just friendship, nothing more than that?

Of course it is possible.

robertmf
16-08-2013, 18:44
Potti, lol, you were too young at the time....when you were at the camp.


University age is not "young". Better is "sexually mature" age :mml:

yakspeare
17-08-2013, 02:27
Indeed. How utterly progressive. And of course not forgetting to commend yourself on being soooo awwwweeesome!
You've just proven by your post that there is no real friendship between males and females in most cases.

Er awesome how? I was just being frank and honest that some women I can be attracted to but still remain friends, valuing friendship over hormones. Others I wouldn't even think of that way at all, they become more like sisters. I am spending a lot of time with a female friend from high school at the moment. Her husband I knew separately for about the same amount of time. She is attractive, she used to model, but I don't even entertain anything with her. Husband is a chef and is always working, so we hang out. Going to a rally and indian festival today. Absolutely men and women can be friends. Most of my friends in Uzbekistan, Russia and Turkey are female by a huge margin. At school most of my friends wete female too

uganda
17-08-2013, 06:48
Well, the reading was painful. The only thing worse was the comments. The article exuded worldly in-depth knowledge of and superiority to medieval, brutish Russian men...........

With all due respect, I think they laid it down quite nicely. I disagree with the tip argument (you have to pay a tip in New York, otherwise your waiter will have nothing to eat that evening). But other than that, this entire article is quite what it looks like to an unsuspecting European coming to America.

Russians, on the other hand, are ready for everything. And as such, they simply enjoy the experience this way or another :)

rusmeister
17-08-2013, 07:01
With all due respect, I think they laid it down quite nicely. I disagree with the tip argument (you have to pay a tip in New York, otherwise your waiter will have nothing to eat that evening). But other than that, this entire article is quite what it looks like to an unsuspecting European coming to America.

Russians, on the other hand, are ready for everything. And as such, they simply enjoy the experience this way or another :)

I appreciate the respect. :)

I agree that it looks like that to an unsuspecting European who thinks as she does and holds her system of values and morals coming to America. I am responding to that worldview, not just to one woman.

I also agree with your comment on tips. If you ever work in the restaurant business there ( and I have and she obviously hasn't) you would understand waitresses and tipping better.

rusmeister
17-08-2013, 07:33
We have a bit different reality in Russia. Many girls in Russia can't afford to study at universities and meet boys in libraries. Many are atheists and don't go to the Church. Very many, the majority of Russian girls of younger generation than I, are working class - middle class persons and can't do any charity,
Very many girls do meet guys in bars, pubs, disco clubs. The dating scene in such places is pretty much the same and the way as Bruke describes. I don't think Bruke is evil and an immoral personality. She is the product of her time.
There are such things as town libraries; we have one in my town. People go and check out books in it, and are not required to be rich. They even have social activities there. And this is in Russia.

The poor atheist STILL has other options (though it strikes me that bars and clubs cost more than libraries)- if they WILL not study hard enough to get into a university (or WOULD not, if they were foolish and lazy throughout their school years), there are still community organizations that do volunteer work, and charities - places where you give of your time to do some good. So there ARE options, and the rest looks like excuses.
Oh, and one need not be a believer simply to go to church and find out what social and charity opportunities might be advertised there. (You might risk your atheism if you do that long enough, though.)

You misread me if you think I think "Bruke is evil and an immoral personality". I think certain views lead to evil, and that we all sin - break our relationship with God. I don't think I am "better" than her or anyone; we distinguish between sinners, which is all of us, and sin, which we ought not do, between people and their acts and views. I can tell the difference.

To be "a product of one's time" means to not think, to not think about one's time and other times and what is good and bad in them and choose what the right positions to take are. It means to accept whatever the popular fashions of thought around you at the moment, the time you find yourself in are, and to not question them. It is not a complementary thing to be.


What distracted me in particular years ago when I dated Russian boys was that they did not believe in the notion of friendship between a man and a woman. They would agree on being a friend of a girl only in case of "benefits" or just "benefits" without any friendship. And even now, if you ask a regular Russian man if he can be just a sincere friend of the woman he is attracted to physically, many and maybe the majority of them will answer "either friendship with benefits, benefits, or nothing at all." Not all of them, but there are too many of such men in Russia. To me it seems medieval. While it is absolutely natural to be a sincere friend of a foreign person, and he can have a beloved girlfriend, she will know about a female friend, and won't be jealous at all. There is a huge difference between western men and Russian ones, whether you want it or not.
This use of the word "benefits", is an example of moral evil. It is an evil euphemism, one that takes a relatively decent word to describe indecent behavior, something that, if it were named openly and literally, without euphemism, people would hesitate to talk about at all. The aim of an evil euphemism is to make moral wrong socially acceptable.

I think your idea of what "medieval" is is a product of our time, and a bad one. Many modern institutions are the product of the medieval period, parliaments and the press being just a couple of examples. Medieval education, with its trivium and quadrivium, was so superior to modern education that there are no words to describe the difference.

But there IS a valid idea in your words, and it is the question of whether jealousy is justified in sexual relations. Broadly speaking, I think it is, and the reason is that we are Fallen (though the Russians you know might not be able to express it that way). Our noble intentions may fall apart in the "right" ( that is, wrong) circumstances, and we do often give in to temptation. The "medieval" Russian, consciously or subconsciously knows this.

uganda
17-08-2013, 09:14
I appreciate the respect. :)

I agree that it looks like that to an unsuspecting European who thinks as she does and holds her system of values and morals coming to America. I am responding to that worldview, not just to one woman.

I also agree with your comment on tips. If you ever work in the restaurant business there ( and I have and she obviously hasn't) you would understand waitresses and tipping better.

The appreciation of your respecting me for respecting you is out of this world, no doubt. If this was the law, we would be living in Star Trek Universe. Shame, we don't.

Hot dang, people. When in New York, just give tips, god dammit. Just double your sales tax and here's your tip. The sales tax is written on your check. What, just had a lobster for 30 bucks and now you can't pay a little tip of 3 dollars???? Come on! Pay the frigging tip!

rusmeister
17-08-2013, 11:29
The appreciation of your respecting me for respecting you is out of this world, no doubt. If this was the law, we would be living in Star Trek Universe. Shame, we don't.

Hot dang, people. When in New York, just give tips, god dammit. Just double your sales tax and here's your tip. The sales tax is written on your check. What, just had a lobster for 30 bucks and now you can't pay a little tip of 3 dollars???? Come on! Pay the frigging tip!

I am actually quite grateful that we don't live in the Star Trek universe. Its fundamental principle is humanism, that man is to become his own god, based on the philosophy of pluralism (IDIC) that there is no truth; that truth is ultimately only individual and subjective. But that was Gene Roddenberry's philosophy, anyway. He threw a few bones referring to the Christian God in the original series for what was in the 1960's still a Christian nation, but by TNG in the '80's, he was able to safely eliminate even those.

At any rate, the Star Trek universe is (in the context of everything good its fans see in it) the Western utopia, the West's equivalent to the Soviet "bright future of communism", and similarly being founded on falsehood, will meet a similar fate.

Sana
17-08-2013, 12:04
) .

Medieval maybe the wrong word.

I am sure that failure to admit existence of just good friendship (without being lovers) between a man and a woman is archaic - maybe this is a better word to describe inability to respect a woman and consider her an equal partner in all aspects?

Do you think there can be a genuine friendship between males and females ?

rusmeister
17-08-2013, 15:06
Medieval maybe the wrong word.

I am sure that failure to admit existence of just good friendship (without being lovers) between a man and a woman is archaic - maybe this is a better word to describe inability to respect a woman and consider her an equal partner in all aspects?

Do you think there can be a genuine friendship between males and females ?

I do not say that friendship is impossible. But I DO think that, generally speaking, there is ALWAYS the possibility of a sexual relationship developing out of such friendships, and so the wife is generally right to be suspicious of other women being close friends with her husband. Seeing someone from time to time and talking with them is normal and by no means calls for suspicion, but when the husband and the other woman meet regularly, and especially alone, suspicion that a supposedly platonic friendship is developing a romantic side because of the natural attraction between men and women is reasonable.

When there IS no other (third) person, certainly friendship (Greek "philia") is possible, but that possibility of eros raising its head is still there, and when it does, the frendship ceases to be just friendship.

As to what is "archaic" or "old-fashioned", we'd have to ask whether the old fashion is sensible or not, and on what basis is it held.

uganda
17-08-2013, 15:47
I am actually quite grateful that we don't live in the Star Trek universe. Its fundamental principle is humanism, that man is to become his own god, based on the philosophy of pluralism (IDIC) that there is no truth; that truth is ultimately only individual and subjective. But that was Gene Roddenberry's philosophy, anyway. He threw a few bones referring to the Christian God in the original series for what was in the 1960's still a Christian nation, but by TNG in the '80's, he was able to safely eliminate even those.

At any rate, the Star Trek universe is (in the context of everything good its fans see in it) the Western utopia, the West's equivalent to the Soviet "bright future of communism", and similarly being founded on falsehood, will meet a similar fate.
Well said. I enjoyed it thoroughly. If I had a tongue like yours, I'd be a hooker and I would charge a lot :) A joke, a jest. I'm just playing with my English, as I'll never stop learning it :) Writings like yours do help a lot. Thank you.

VicY
18-08-2013, 12:07
Er awesome how? I was just being frank and honest that some women I can be attracted to but still remain friends, valuing friendship over hormones. Others I wouldn't even think of that way at all, they become more like sisters. I am spending a lot of time with a female friend from high school at the moment. Her husband I knew separately for about the same amount of time. She is attractive, she used to model, but I don't even entertain anything with her. Husband is a chef and is always working, so we hang out. Going to a rally and indian festival today. Absolutely men and women can be friends. Most of my friends in Uzbekistan, Russia and Turkey are female by a huge margin. At school most of my friends wete female too

I'm not going to go into more debate about it, with more examples.
It's like pulling teeth - both sides providing detailed examples of why it is/isn't so, etc. In any case, what you described is in most cases nowhere near a "genuine friendship", because, even if one side is content with being just friends, the other might not be, but would prefer to keep it that way rather than stop communcating altogether. In some cases such sentiments become known to both parties and get discussed and settled (as has been in many of my cases) or they don't. In which case you'll never know how your "close female friend" may feel about you. In some cultures, in fact, they'd rather die than let you know.
Bottomline is that more often than not such "friendships" are hardly genuine precisely because you yourself admit it that you've got to "respect" those females.

yakspeare
18-08-2013, 12:32
Absolute nonsense. Even for there to be the slightest issue, one side has to be attracted to the other. Quite often that doesn't exist at all. If there is an attraction on some level, people can control themselves if they chose to and it is often something they get over anyway just a phase.

And iF your attraction is of such a level you speak of, people can make an honest assessment. You assume that sex is the primary driver and duty, responsibility or the value of the friendship are not a consideration. Otherwise all doctors would be hitting on their patients, no secretary would be safe, every priest chasing people in his congregation.

If you think the way you do, Saudi Arabia should be your next port of call. Women fully covered, not allowed to drive, requiring a male relative escort to leave the house.

Does yiur husband know how much time you spend on here or do you only do it in front of him?

rusmeister
18-08-2013, 13:17
Absolute nonsense. Even for there to be the slightest issue, one side has to be attracted to the other. Quite often that doesn't exist at all.

Generally speaking, between two people of commensurate age thrown into close contact, it DOES often exist, begging your pardon.


If there is an attraction on some level, people can control themselves if they chose to and it is often something they get over anyway just a phase.
Yes, they can control themselves. The problem is that they sometimes don't.



And if your attraction is of such a level you speak of, people can make an honest assessment. You assume that sex is the primary driver and duty, responsibility or the value of the friendship are not a consideration. Otherwise all doctors would be hitting on their patients, no secretary would be safe, every priest chasing people in his congregation.
No, anyone can see that business relations can provide an incentive for control that may otherwise be absent. And the discussion is PRECISELY about when the relations are not primarily business ones, where a couple can ostensibly be "friends".


If you think the way you do, Saudi Arabia should be your next port of call. Women fully covered, not allowed to drive, requiring a male relative escort to leave the house.

Does your husband know how much time you spend on here or do you only do it in front of him?


The leap of logic (or the lack thereof) here is astounding. How you get the idea that thinking that people might succumb to sexual temptation means that they want Sharia law is beyond me.

yakspeare
18-08-2013, 14:01
You do the homosexuality-> pedophilia-> bestiality path but can't see your own assumptions could lead to a sharia like society? Did women not once have chaperones on dates? Or married by arrangement of families with little consideration to whether the two even liked each other? Where woman need to dress conservatively, that a dress above the ankle then the knee was outrageous?

Well, you talk about homosexuals requiring to suppress desires, yet a straight man isn't able to? My upbringing friendship between men and women was the normal state of things, sometimes attraction arises and then decisions must be made. But it is hardly the norm with the average male/female encounter. Attraction is a multi-faceted thing, you turn us into lepers and leaches unable to control ourselves and with outcomes predetermined.

Sana
18-08-2013, 14:43
Generally speaking, between two people of commensurate age thrown into close contact, it DOES often exist, begging your pardon.

Oh, not at all. Absolutely not the case!

Yes, they can control themselves. The problem is that they sometimes don't.

Well, then it is a "barbaric" society or a Muslim world.

No, anyone can see that business relations can provide an incentive for control that may otherwise be absent. And the discussion is PRECISELY about when the relations are not primarily business ones, where a couple can ostensibly be "friends".

Both business contacts or not business contacts....and besides, I'd they can control themselves in business contacts, why is it impossible for them in not business contacts? Lack of logic...


The leap of logic (or the lack thereof) here is astounding. How you get the idea that thinking that people might succumb to sexual temptation means that they want Sharia law is beyond me.

Obviously the Asian culture affected Russian minds and many Russian men do think quite similar to those people from the former Asian Soviet Republics: Georgia, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan.... Etc, where women have much fewer rights than in European countries, that is why Russia is often called Euro-Asia because of so many Asian traditions acquired from there.

VicY
18-08-2013, 15:23
Absolute nonsense. Even for there to be the slightest issue, one side has to be attracted to the other. Quite often that doesn't exist at all. If there is an attraction on some level, people can control themselves if they chose to and it is often something they get over anyway just a phase.

And iF your attraction is of such a level you speak of, people can make an honest assessment. You assume that sex is the primary driver and duty, responsibility or the value of the friendship are not a consideration. Otherwise all doctors would be hitting on their patients, no secretary would be safe, every priest chasing people in his congregation.

If you think the way you do, Saudi Arabia should be your next port of call. Women fully covered, not allowed to drive, requiring a male relative escort to leave the house.

Does yiur husband know how much time you spend on here or do you only do it in front of him?

You're getting funnier with each message concerning this subject.
I think I should just stop responding to anything you post.
If you wish to continue to twist what is being said by others, or ignore some of the valid opinions, that is your choice.

I don't spend nearly as long on this forum as you do and most of the time it happens when I travel to/from work.

VicY
18-08-2013, 15:26
Generally speaking, between two people of commensurate age thrown into close contact, it DOES often exist, begging your pardon.


Yes, they can control themselves. The problem is that they sometimes don't.



No, anyone can see that business relations can provide an incentive for control that may otherwise be absent. And the discussion is PRECISELY about when the relations are not primarily business ones, where a couple can ostensibly be "friends".


The leap of logic (or the lack thereof) here is astounding. How you get the idea that thinking that people might succumb to sexual temptation means that they want Sharia law is beyond me.

Rus, yes, I also thought we were talking about people being "close friends", not business partners or just common acquaintances. But somehow it even got to the point of involving priests and their congregation. LOL.

Sana
18-08-2013, 17:15
We are talking about genuine friendship between sexes in general - both business contacts or not business contacts including all cases, and besides, if they can control themselves in business contacts, why is it impossible for them to control themselves in not business contacts? Lack of logic...

rusmeister
18-08-2013, 18:48
You do the homosexuality-> pedophilia-> bestiality path but can't see your own assumptions could lead to a sharia like society? Did women not once have chaperones on dates? Or married by arrangement of families with little consideration to whether the two even liked each other? Where woman need to dress conservatively, that a dress above the ankle then the knee was outrageous?

Well, you talk about homosexuals requiring to suppress desires, yet a straight man isn't able to? My upbringing friendship between men and women was the normal state of things, sometimes attraction arises and then decisions must be made. But it is hardly the norm with the average male/female encounter. Attraction is a multi-faceted thing, you turn us into lepers and leaches unable to control ourselves and with outcomes predetermined.

Yak, ANY views COULD lead to ANY extreme.

I think chaperones an excellent idea. Are you trying to scare me, there?

If you ever listen to people in arranged marriages, you will find that on those who talk about it, you find at least as many people who learned to get along with their spouse as not. Something logical if you consider that most parents tend to love their children, and want them to STAY married even at the times when they DON'T like each other - which happens in 100% of marriages. In our "free choice" society, we have a fifty percent divorce rate. I don't think you can crow about that.

I think "straight" men OUGHT to control their desires - if they aren't married, they should. be. celibate. Read my lips on that one.

Who do I "turn into a leper" and how? Is a thing abnormal or not? Are there such things as useless passions which ought NOT to be indulged in? Of course. We ALL need to practice restraint in something or other. Some of us may feel a desire to strangle our bosses - every day. That desire needs to be suppressed - not hung out with a pride flag.

I don't cause children to be born without eyes or limbs, nor do I cause same-sex attraction in people. They have it. Maybe they want it, maybe they don't. Maybe they wish to God they were normal - and many do.

The trouble is, that they want to redefine the family, Yak. You've ignored or passed over what I've said about that, so at some point I'm going to stop responding to you and everyone who I've said that to, and what exactly that means for husbands, wives and children. The family is a complementary thing - male plug, female socket. Homosexual relations, by definition, are not - male plug, male plug. The husband has a specific role that is affected by his ontology. However much he may want to, he cannot be a wife or a mother. IOW, we actually NEED women, but he, in his delusion, is saying we do not. And the reverse is equally true for women, who cannot be fathers and husbands by any stretch of the imagination (and so they need us, too, however they might try to dispense with us biologically). Ontology is FAR more than the physical form of the genitals, of even just the physical body. And you guys are oblivious to that, despite the obvious hint of every child who ever lived longing to have both his mother and his father in his life - which may, incredibly, even be some of you, who have only forgotten that.

So your case is wrong, your analogies are wrong, the differences of race and class are utterly different from the difference between the sexes, and you will do untold damage to society before people come back to the monogamy of husband, wife and child, which the world has always returned to. But our civilization will not likely survive such a total change. The general purpose of the family is children, and the marriages that cannot have them wild exceptions, which STILL follow the pattern set down in nature (as does adoption), and this would make marriage an institution about adults, where children are irrelevant. No society can survive that.

I think I could lay $100 that you won't seriously consider any of that, and will just continue along the same lines as if I hadn't said anything. My faith is now quite small.

rusmeister
18-08-2013, 19:03
We are talking about genuine friendship between sexes in general - both business contacts or not business contacts including all cases, and besides, if they can control themselves in business contacts, why is it impossible for them to control themselves in not business contacts? Lack of logic...

You really do, as VicY said, change my words here. I DIDN'T say "impossible". I said "often". And it is true. They often do NOT control themselves, and that's why we have all the stories, books, movies, etc, about office romances and love at the workplace, the "Служебный Роман".

You can't talk about logic or the lack thereof unless you carefully address what I do say, rather than invent a position that I do not hold, a straw man, and successfully beat that.

Sana
18-08-2013, 19:09
I feel like initiating one more thread - a poll: does genuine friendship exist between two sexes? I will ask to answer only Yes or No. And maybe if someone would like to put down an explanation why they think like this, it would be also appreciated.

And I am absolutely sure, the majority of people on this site will answer "Yes" and maybe even they will bring reasonable proofs of that.

This article is not about that. But what Bruke says about Russian men still relates to the subject of perception of friendship existence between two sexes.

The majority of those who participated in this thread agreed that it does exist while Russian men in general do not think so - which was to be proved,

It will take Russia a long time to stand for a little more than it stands for now, and it will take Russian males quite a long time to be a little bit more progressive in their way of thinking.

Sana
18-08-2013, 19:20
You really do, as VicY said, change my words here. I DIDN'T say "impossible". I said "often". And it is true. They often do NOT control themselves, and that's why we have all the stories, books, movies, etc, about office romances and love at the workplace, the "Служебный Роман".

You can't talk about logic or the lack thereof unless you carefully address what I do say, rather than invent a position that I do not hold, a straw man, and successfully beat that.

"Often" was not the question raised by me here, I was asking people about a general possibility".

I want maybe to repeat again that if I was on an uninhabited island with those male friends of mine (who have girlfriends and are very faithful to them, but they were there without them) I would still treat them as just genuine friends. I am sure they would do too considering the knowledge that I cannot be attracted to them physically. They would never jeopardize my friendship. And I do really value their friendship very much.

penka
18-08-2013, 19:36
I honestly don't understand the concept of Russian (British, German, Swedish, American etc) men/women. I dare say there must be at least some difference between a Swedish truck driver and my late Cambridge educated father-in-law for a nobility.


The funny thing is, however, any of the two could be a gentleman or a villain, even if they were Russian. Towards a female as well.

Potty
18-08-2013, 19:51
The thing is when you are with your same-sex friend you have nothing to "control".

penka
18-08-2013, 19:52
"Often" was not the question raised by me here, I was asking people about a general possibility".

I want maybe to repeat again that if I was on an uninhabited island with those male friends of mine (who have girlfriends and are very faithful to them, but they were there without them) I would still treat them as just genuine friends. I am sure they would do too considering the knowledge that I cannot be attracted to them physically. They would never jeopardize my friendship. And I do really value their friendship very much.

Sana, you are an excellent female! Especially exceptionally so for being a Russian. I can befriend you. I am a female. I think. Well, so my passports say. But, you, in your infinite wisdom know better. Let's say, it would be an honour to befriend you if I were married. I can pass your details to all of my very married un-ambiguously male friends, though! Blessed be, tovarisch.

penka
18-08-2013, 19:57
The thing is when you are with your same-sex friend you have nothing to "control".

What's to control??? You drive a boat, so do I. You and I got the money. You won't knick my lipstick, I won't tell you the colour of my garter belt. You can tell me about the Eastern Capital, I can tell you where I got my latest Baroque sculpture. WHICH BLOODY CONTROL???

Sana
18-08-2013, 20:01
The thing is when you are with your same-sex friend you have nothing to "control".

If you are not physically attracted to a male friend, you have nothing to control either. But he may appear to be a very good friend for you, always ready to render an emotional support in difficult times whether being attracted to you or not...

Potty
18-08-2013, 20:07
If you are not physically attracted to a male friend, you have nothing to control either. But he may appear to be a very good friend for you, always ready to render an emotional support in difficult times whether being attracted to you or not...

I dont know. Man who is good enough for friendship is good enough for sex by definition. I mean to be understanding, caring, etc etc and to be a male is veeeery sexy.

Sana
18-08-2013, 20:15
I dont know. Man who is good enough for friendship is good enough for sex by definition. I mean to be understanding, caring, etc etc and to be a male is veeeery sexy.

Not necessarily. For me it has never been the case. I have mostly had male friends to whom I have not been attracted physically at all. In cases I was attracted but knew they had girlfriends, I was able to control myself, or even saying in other words, I never admitted even a thought of romancing any male friend who was in a relationship, But friendship is really a valuable thing.

Sana
18-08-2013, 20:56
What's to control??? You drive a boat, so do I. You and I got the money. You won't knick my lipstick, I won't tell you the colour of my garter belt. You can tell me about the Eastern Capital, I can tell you where I got my latest Baroque sculpture. WHICH BLOODY CONTROL???

Geez! Penka, this time you seem to be smoking something different from what you were smoking before....

penka
19-08-2013, 00:03
Geez! Penka, this time you seem to be smoking something different from what you were smoking before....

Oh sana, I could never imagine simple concepts of female undergarments, traded funds and art historical periods could be so confusing for your uncluttered brain.

Sleep now.

uganda
19-08-2013, 01:27
I am actually quite grateful that we don't live in the Star Trek universe. Its fundamental principle is humanism, that man is to become his own god, based on the philosophy of pluralism (IDIC) that there is no truth; that truth is ultimately only individual and subjective. But that was Gene Roddenberry's philosophy, anyway. He threw a few bones referring to the Christian God in the original series for what was in the 1960's still a Christian nation, but by TNG in the '80's, he was able to safely eliminate even those.

At any rate, the Star Trek universe is (in the context of everything good its fans see in it) the Western utopia, the West's equivalent to the Soviet "bright future of communism", and similarly being founded on falsehood, will meet a similar fate.

Yes, but for a brief moment in history, we were happy enough to live in that utopia in the Soviet Union. I lived there and it was beautiful. That's why I watch Star Trek over and over again. The original, the Next Generation, the Deep Space 9, the Voyager, and even that new one. I want to live in that world and I do...

Sana
19-08-2013, 02:53
Oh sana, I could never imagine simple concepts of female undergarments, traded funds and art historical periods could be so confusing for your uncluttered brain.

Sleep now.

Taking drugs and drinking will not do you good. Believe me, you will get better once you find a good doctor.
In case you can't afford it, there is always a free social service for tramps
like you. Don't hesitate with it, you will remember my words.

uganda
19-08-2013, 03:19
Taking drugs and drinking will not do you good. Believe me, you will get better once you find a good doctor.

Doctor? Never ever go to a doctor. I used to be a doctor myself ones. You know what I did? Well, I was a military doctor and my patients were soldiers who served in Afghanistan back in the 80'. I gave them fake diagnosis, so they would go home. I saved maybe 20 or 3o of them. The rest 150 thousand died. I quit the medical profession after that and became a plumber. I make 100K rubles a month doing that. Not bad.

robertmf
19-08-2013, 03:20
Taking drugs and drinking will not do you good. Believe me, you will get better once you find a good doctor.
In case you can't afford it, there is always a free social service for tramps
like you. Don't hesitate with it, you will remember my words.

LMFAO :trampoline:

:devil: