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mrzuzzo
05-02-2013, 15:09
The western media (and many local expats) always try their best to portray Russia in a bad way, referring to statistics. Let's have a look at some of these and debunk them:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2013/02/04/five-myths-about-russia/

Myth 1: Russia's population is declining.
http://blogs-images.forbes.com/markadomanis/files/2013/02/RussiaPopulation.png

Myth 2: Russia's economy is in stagnation.
http://blogs-images.forbes.com/markadomanis/files/2013/02/RussiaEconomy1.png

Myth 3: Russia's military spending is "skyrocketing".
http://blogs-images.forbes.com/markadomanis/files/2013/02/Defense-Spending.png

Myth 4: The alcohol problem in Russia is only getting worse.
http://blogs-images.forbes.com/markadomanis/files/2013/02/RussiaAlcoholism.png

Alan65
05-02-2013, 16:01
If those charts are read in conjunction with the prices of oil through the 90s until 2000 when it was about $ 20 per barrell until today where it has steadily climbed to $ 110.

If improvements had not been made over the last 12 years Russia would really be in a mess, I guess the question is are the improvements in line, above or below what would be expected with possibly a 500% increase in state income.

In summary are Russias improvements comensurate with her income.

rubyrussia
05-02-2013, 16:10
You might want to type Tim Kirby into youtube or yandex. He is an American that has dedicated his life to talking about the "information war" and bias in the media. He gets pretty emotional about it and is happy to denounce America at any free chance he has. I think you would like him Mr. Z. :)

yakspeare
05-02-2013, 16:25
I wonder which so called western media writes these negative things about Russia? They do write positive and negative news-negative more about the centralization of power and dubious elections. But everything I read is that Russia's population decline has finally halted and is slowly rising again. This is true. But I also note in RUSSIAN media they still talk about it declining-even Medved and Putin have talked about it.

As for military spending(and remember the US has been in two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in that time which inflates the figures) the Russian trend IS upward over Putin's reign and by quite a jump but that is forward looking not money spent now.

Other discrepancies are in life expectancy, with western media actually mention men's age on death has risen while a lot of Russian ,edia keeps the figures at about 3-5 years younger.So who is it who is being untruthful? Evil, capitlaist western media or the news controlled by the state of Russia? WHO has the incentive to have "white Russian babies" to hold off the hordes of muslim "Tadjiks" etc? Who is increasing taxes on smokes and alcohol? Who announced a 600 Billion dollar upgrade to the armed forces?

hmm?

scd167
05-02-2013, 16:38
Maybe the real threat to the USA lies to our North?

:eek:

Alan65
05-02-2013, 16:42
Maybe the real threat to the USA lies to our North?

:eek:

You may be onto something there

Blame Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

rubyrussia
05-02-2013, 16:42
Maybe the real threat to the USA lies to our North?

:eek:

LOL SCD,

America has already gone to war once against Canada and lost. We couldn't afford to do it again for sure. ;)

scd167
05-02-2013, 16:43
Canadian bacon - YouTube

Lost in moscow
05-02-2013, 17:31
and imagine where Russia could be if bribery/theft wasn't as widespread.

penka
05-02-2013, 17:49
and imagine where Russia could be if bribery/theft wasn't as widespread.

Asch, corruption exists absolutely everywhere.

Sweden is not considered a corrupted country, precisely, but I do not know any single minister or a bank director being just a talented person from a humble background. And damn right, if you are nobody your kids will NEVER get into a privileged school.

And yes, your CAN agree with a police officer when speeding.

Widespread, you say? Russia is BIG, my friend. And Moscow is even bigger. Still, nowhere to park your damn car.

Alan65
05-02-2013, 18:01
and imagine where Russia could be if bribery/theft wasn't as widespread.

That is exacly what I was alluding to, they may have made progress but does this progress reflect where they should be.

It is like having a pretty average premier league football team, spending a few hundered million on players and still being pretty much an average premier league football team rather than title contenders.

Its all well and good saying GDP is now 16k per head etc, but how have these gains compared with inflation etc, what is the purchasing power of 16 k Rubles per year now compared to say 8k Rubles 12 years ago.

Lost in moscow
05-02-2013, 18:14
Asch, corruption exists absolutely everywhere.

Sweden is not considered a corrupted country, precisely, but I do not know any single minister or a bank director being just a talented person from a humble background. And damn right, if you are nobody your kids will NEVER get into a privileged school.

And yes, your CAN agree with a police officer when speeding.

Widespread, you say? Russia is BIG, my friend. And Moscow is even bigger. Still, nowhere to park your damn car.




no, the levels are far higher in Russia, you're down playing the severity, and how bad it actually does hurt the economy, Billions are being taken out of the country yearly, rather than put back into the country. Where Russia could be right now, it has the money to become the new world power house, US is the past, Russian will be preferred over English. Now consider the ratio, bribes per population, to what level it has reached, bribing for kinder garden spot?????? Someone stoops that low to use our future generation to extort some gain and to what degree it all has reached. Theft is the main evil of bribery, I look at construction sites in Moscow and I don't see the pride of an architect being erected, I see intent to steal, material and financial theft, lucrative section. And to get away with it, you bribe shit loads. And you know, the more people the more risk, so someone somewhere with the law behind his back will try and also extort something from said person or threaten incarceration, so, the people who apply for such job positions are there for the sole purpose to have the authority to extort a bribe. It's in every section of society, some are more popular then others. Not saying there aren't honest men among them, but they are overwhelmingly few in caparison. It's all starts a very basic level, this is how people are raised. It's their impression on how things work, most conform. blind eye turned when it's worth it what's stopping them from being cheats in business?

Russia's huge, and Moscow and the near by surrounding areas doesn't have to be the only place to live! Worlds biggest country in the world, yet the emptiest and under developed for it's time.

Russia's pissing in the wind purposely

Alan65
05-02-2013, 18:26
It's all starts a very basic level, this is how people are raised. It's their impression on how things work, most conform. blind eye turned when it's worth it what's stopping them from being cheats in business?

I had this arguement, (well discussion really) with my ex, she used to list honourable and patriotic as a character traits of hers.

When it was her sons 18th and time to be conscripted she was on the verge of "buying him out" for $10 k with an enlisting officer, not very honourable and not very patriotic.

The debate I put forward was "are these the values you wish to imprint on your son, when he is at an age of impression and starting his own journey in life, think about it".

My ex was lost for words

Lost in moscow
05-02-2013, 18:38
Everything, everywhere someone is scamming someone out of something.

I was in Butovo the other day, bought a one metro ticket from the machine, I put 50 rub in and got 21 rubles change. As if the machine just ran out of ones. So I buy another one, put another 50 in, change 21 rub. That's not a glitch, that's theft. Not to mention, during the last time it snowed for 2-3 days straight, (not the most resent snow fall), the Mkad, Moscow ant farm areas, and parts of the center where horribly cleaned, yet at 11 in the evening I was walking on cleaned sidewalk in Butovo, teams of cleaners passing every 15-45 minutes, keeping it clean.

I get home, the walk towards my building was fun -_- all the paths were deep in snow, all day left alone to fill up....

Still using copeks, WHY? Million are stole just from there, I never get my full change if they owe me 0.0X copeks, yet they look startled if I demand it out of principle for still using it in general. I was at a store, where I usually always used to leave my little change, one day she wanted 40 copeks from me, I told her to take it out of the little dish she had there, she told me why would she use her money on me? she considered them her tips :applause:

Shopping center next to my metro been 7 years under construction. 5 story office building across the street has been a big ass ditch for the last 5 years.
A 25 story "elite" apartment building has been in the works for 9 years now.

Yet, 2 21 story apartment building went up in under 2 years....

I can go on forever

penka
05-02-2013, 19:19
no, the levels are far higher in Russia, you're down playing the severity, and how bad it actually does hurt the economy, Billions are being taken out of the country yearly, rather than put back into the country. Where Russia could be right now, it has the money to become the new world power house, US is the past, Russian will be preferred over English. Now consider the ratio, bribes per population, to what level it has reached, bribing for kinder garden spot?????? Someone stoops that low to use our future generation to extort some gain and to what degree it all has reached. Theft is the main evil of bribery, I look at construction sites in Moscow and I don't see the pride of an architect being erected, I see intent to steal, material and financial theft, lucrative section. And to get away with it, you bribe shit loads. And you know, the more people the more risk, so someone somewhere with the law behind his back will try and also extort something from said person or threaten incarceration, so, the people who apply for such job positions are there for the sole purpose to have the authority to extort a bribe. It's in every section of society, some are more popular then others. Not saying there aren't honest men among them, but they are overwhelmingly few in caparison. It's all starts a very basic level, this is how people are raised. It's their impression on how things work, most conform. blind eye turned when it's worth it what's stopping them from being cheats in business?

Russia's huge, and Moscow and the near by surrounding areas doesn't have to be the only place to live! Worlds biggest country in the world, yet the emptiest and under developed for it's time.

Russia's pissing in the wind purposely

Wow, man! Calm down, please! Surely I was born in Moscow, but I returned just last summer and had a very sheltered life!!!

penka
05-02-2013, 19:29
I had this arguement, (well discussion really) with my ex, she used to list honourable and patriotic as a character traits of hers.

When it was her sons 18th and time to be conscripted she was on the verge of "buying him out" for $10 k with an enlisting officer, not very honourable and not very patriotic.

The debate I put forward was "are these the values you wish to imprint on your son, when he is at an age of impression and starting his own journey in life, think about it".

My ex was lost for words

Alan, Russian people love and are patriotic of their Motherland. Their state they slightly hate.

penka
05-02-2013, 19:31
Everything, everywhere someone is scamming someone out of something.

I was in Butovo the other day, bought a one metro ticket from the machine, I put 50 rub in and got 21 rubles change. As if the machine just ran out of ones. So I buy another one, put another 50 in, change 21 rub. That's not a glitch, that's theft. Not to mention, during the last time it snowed for 2-3 days straight, (not the most resent snow fall), the Mkad, Moscow ant farm areas, and parts of the center where horribly cleaned, yet at 11 in the evening I was walking on cleaned sidewalk in Butovo, teams of cleaners passing every 15-45 minutes, keeping it clean.

I get home, the walk towards my building was fun -_- all the paths were deep in snow, all day left alone to fill up....

Still using copeks, WHY? Million are stole just from there, I never get my full change if they owe me 0.0X copeks, yet they look startled if I demand it out of principle for still using it in general. I was at a store, where I usually always used to leave my little change, one day she wanted 40 copeks from me, I told her to take it out of the little dish she had there, she told me why would she use her money on me? she considered them her tips :applause:

Shopping center next to my metro been 7 years under construction. 5 story office building across the street has been a big ass ditch for the last 5 years.
A 25 story "elite" apartment building has been in the works for 9 years now.

Yet, 2 21 story apartment building went up in under 2 years....

I can go on forever

Man, FFS, leave the place! You sound seriously miserable from being here...

Alan65
05-02-2013, 19:33
Alan, Russian people love and are patriotic of their Motherland. Their state they slightly hate.

But obviously they do not love it enough to serve in her armed forces and would rather pay a bribe.

I think the phrase you are looking for is "Russian people have conditional love for their country"

penka
05-02-2013, 19:41
But obviously they do not love it enough to serve in her armed forces and would rather pay a bribe.

I think the phrase you are looking for is "Russian people have conditional love for their country"

Nah, not really. Armed forces is part of the state and the motherland is not, thanks god, under any immediate danger.

Have you done the duty, may I ask?

RichardB
05-02-2013, 19:45
MrZ,

Graphs always print pretty pictures but the numbers behind those graphs almost always tell a different story...

http://geography.about.com/od/obtainpopulationdata/a/russiapop.htm

There are lies, damn lies and statistics - but no matter how you massage those statistics Russia is STILL behind on various key matters.

Life expectancy of the Russian male - 59 years old.
Fertility rate of 1.3. A fertility rate of 2.1 is required for a stable population.

etc.
etc.

Alan65
05-02-2013, 19:45
Nah, not really. Armed forces is part of the state and the motherland is not, thanks god, under any immediate danger.

Have you done the duty, may I ask?

Why would I serve, I am not Russian, I am from Mogadishu.

robertmf
05-02-2013, 19:51
There are lies, damn lies and statistics - but no matter how you massage those statistics Russia is STILL behind on various key matters.


:groan:

penka
05-02-2013, 20:00
Why would I serve, I am not Russian, I am from Mogadishu.

Aha, you are from Xamar. I see.
Of course, no need to serve in the Russian military forces, then.

markmarkov
05-02-2013, 20:15
I don't think these statistics are really relevant as the most important "metric" that hasn't been measured is life satisfaction. This is not to be confused with quality of life (which is lower in Russia than most Western countries). I am just talking about people being happy vs. unhappy.
I believe a resident of Russia is more satisfied with their life than a resident of any other country. I really do think so. One could be making lots of money, own a big house, and live in nice suburb of an American city, but feel totally unhappy and depressed. Or, that same person could be living in Moscow, making very little but having the time of their life due to various factors, including but not limited to friends (I didn't know what true friendship was until I came to Russia), concerts, great sex (esp. if you are male), adrenaline rush, great atmosphere at work, etc. etc.

Russian Lad
05-02-2013, 20:23
I think I agree with what Lost in Moscow was saying. Mrzuzzo, it may look nice on the graphs and the position of Russia may look bright from the Potemkin village of Skolkovo, however, Russia at present is a colossus on clay legs, the oil prices drop and it is mayhem here. The present government has lost the brilliant opportunity to make Russia a great country, over 10 years - completely wasted, they are too busy enriching themselves. Ok, the populace in general has enough food to eat and cheap cell phones are available, but that's it. Prices for apartments are ridiculously high, mortgage prices are exorbitant, the flat rate income tax of 13% is a total joke, the pension system is on the brink of collapse.
You know what law has been passed recently? Self-employed people and people owning small businesses (индивидуальные предприниматели) will be paying the pension fund taxes 5 (five) times more than what they are paying now within five years. Two times more this year. You live in some Kremlin Wonderland. On one hand, there is a lot to envy, on the other hand, it is not reality.:) You better wake up and take a closer look around.
Read this, MrZuzzo, this is what is happening, you may even be unaware of this:
http://www.change.org/ru/%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8/%D0%BC%D1%8B-%D0%B7%D0%B0-%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%83-%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%85-%D0%B2%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2-%D0%B2-%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9-%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B4-%D1%81-%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%B0

Such petitions are everywhere in the Russian Internet now. And just imagine what it will be like here when the oil prices drop, and they will, sooner or later, they have a cycle tendency.

Lost in moscow
05-02-2013, 21:03
Man, FFS, leave the place! You sound seriously miserable from being here...

This is my home. And I want to change it, I understand how good it can be here, just enough people have to want it also before anything happens.

But yea miserable sounds about right.

Nobbynumbnuts
05-02-2013, 21:35
............My ex was lost for words

If i was your ex i would have been too.
Do you know what the conditions are like for conscripts in Russia? Do you know what health issues they can suffer from after a spell in the military?
There's nothing patriotic about doing a spell in the army, in Russia. I don't blame her for trying to buy him out.

mrzuzzo
05-02-2013, 21:52
There's nothing patriotic about doing a spell in the army, in Russia.

+1 to that. Would be different if the conditions were somewhat humane.

BabyFirefly
05-02-2013, 21:56
Most negative stereotypes about Russia are true.

The problem is no one talks about the positives. Granted, it often seems there are little, or what they're hidden somewhere, but they're there.

Jack17
05-02-2013, 22:47
Are these graphs supposed to reflect positively on Russia?

Here's a more accurate picture of population growth:

23478

Deaths exceed births - difficult to get anywhere like that.

"Military spending as a percent of GDP?" Well, exactly; but what does that say about GDP that Russia's military is one fourteenth that of the US?

And GDP has grown from $9K to $15K per year in 10 years? If a prospective English teacher wrote into this forum from Canada and said they had to live, even in Kazan, on $15K per year, we'd all tell them to stay at home. That's what the average Russian has to live on.

These graphs only underscore the troubles Russia has.

Alan65
06-02-2013, 00:08
If i was your ex i would have been too.
Do you know what the conditions are like for conscripts in Russia? Do you know what health issues they can suffer from after a spell in the military?
There's nothing patriotic about doing a spell in the army, in Russia. I don't blame her for trying to buy him out.

QED my son, not prepared to change the system or do anything against it, just shut the f()ck up and buy their way out, people get what they deserve in life.

Life imitating art.

Alan65
06-02-2013, 00:10
+1 to that. Would be different if the conditions were somewhat humane.

once again QED, moan like a bunch of bitches but do the square root of f()ck all about it other than bribe someone.

140 million people, not one collective backbone to stand up for what you want,

robertmf
06-02-2013, 00:16
Life imitating art.

Quality of Life Index 2012 (http://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp)

yakspeare
06-02-2013, 09:45
I too think it is cowardice and laziness for people to not serve their military term and the quality of the army suffers as a result. However a former girlfriend's brother joined and came back a heroin addict from his stint in the far east. he is still screwing up their lives years later. So when it was time for the other son to join, the family paid a doctor to say he had a foot problem and was exempted.

But at least the Russian army is still capable of beating up on Georgia...

Russian Lad
06-02-2013, 10:16
But at least the Russian army is still capable of beating up on Georgia...


Any Georgia...

penka
06-02-2013, 10:21
Are these graphs supposed to reflect positively on Russia?

Here's a more accurate picture of population growth:

23478

Deaths exceed births - difficult to get anywhere like that.

"Military spending as a percent of GDP?" Well, exactly; but what does that say about GDP that Russia's military is one fourteenth that of the US?

And GDP has grown from $9K to $15K per year in 10 years? If a prospective English teacher wrote into this forum from Canada and said they had to live, even in Kazan, on $15K per year, we'd all tell them to stay at home. That's what the average Russian has to live on.

These graphs only underscore the troubles Russia has.

What's the fertility rate in Europe? 1.6?

scd167
06-02-2013, 10:43
Quality of Life Index 2012 (http://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp)

Wow, Jas should be happy? Pakistan is ranked higher than Russia... :eek:

Russian Lad
06-02-2013, 14:35
It is a stupid Index, the combined purchasing power of Russia should be much higher, if we didn't have an uneven and screwed distribution of wealth we would be the second UAE in no time, maybe even better. We need a bloody revolution.


And GDP has grown from $9K to $15K per year in 10 years?

Yeah, and if we take into account the inflation of like 7% a year we will see no change at all...
Penka, what are you so proud about? You have secured your place at a kormushka?:)

Alan65
06-02-2013, 14:47
I too think it is cowardice and laziness for people to not serve their military term and the quality of the army suffers as a result. However a former girlfriend's brother joined and came back a heroin addict from his stint in the far east. he is still screwing up their lives years later. So when it was time for the other son to join, the family paid a doctor to say he had a foot problem and was exempted.

But at least the Russian army is still capable of beating up on Georgia...

I think the Russian goverment are giving the masses a stronger opiate thatn herion, it is a mobile phone, iPads, Ikea, flat screen TVs and a Louis Vuitton handbag.

andymackem
06-02-2013, 16:38
Stats released from the Russian govt today suggest a small fall in overall population, with 2,500 more deaths than births. OK, so call it breaking even - it still represents a continuation of the problem.


From the Moscow News:
The mortality rate in Russia exceeded the birth rate by more than 2,500 people last year contrary to expectations, the press office of the Labor and Social Security Ministry said on Wednesday.

Under the government demographic policy to 2025, the country’s population was expected to rise by 100,000 people in 2012 to 143 million people, a copy of the document on the ministry’s website showed.

In the 12 months of 2012, 1.896 million babies were born in Russia, which is 5.7 percent more than in the previous year and the highest number since 1990, it said.
But the death rate in 2012 was 1.898 million, although it was a 1.4 percent decline from 2011.

The ministry had recorded a natural growth of the population of 4,500 people in the first 11 months and said it expected an increase in the numbers for the full year.

scd167
06-02-2013, 16:55
I too think it is cowardice and laziness for people to not serve their military term and the quality of the army suffers as a result. However a former girlfriend's brother joined and came back a heroin addict from his stint in the far east. he is still screwing up their lives years later. So when it was time for the other son to join, the family paid a doctor to say he had a foot problem and was exempted.

But at least the Russian army is still capable of beating up on Georgia...

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/drunk-spat-about-serving-motherland-ends-in-triple-homicide/475125.html

penka
06-02-2013, 18:47
It is a stupid Index, the combined purchasing power of Russia should be much higher, if we didn't have an uneven and screwed distribution of wealth we would be the second UAE in no time, maybe even better. We need a bloody revolution.



Yeah, and if we take into account the inflation of like 7% a year we will see no change at all...
Penka, what are you so proud about? You have secured your place at a kormushka?:)

I will disregard your plebeian insult.

Yes, I am proud of my Motherland. Do you have a problem with that?

robertmf
06-02-2013, 18:50
Penka, what are you so proud about? You have secured your place at a kormushka?:)

kormushka кормушка == "pig trough" (pron. trawf) LOL Usually refers to politicians "at the trough".

robertmf
06-02-2013, 18:53
I We need a bloody revolution.


:9456: You had one. How did that work out :question:



:shamp:

Lost in moscow
07-02-2013, 00:19
I too think it is cowardice and laziness for people to not serve their military term and the quality of the army suffers as a result. However a former girlfriend's brother joined and came back a heroin addict from his stint in the far east. he is still screwing up their lives years later. So when it was time for the other son to join, the family paid a doctor to say he had a foot problem and was exempted.

But at least the Russian army is still capable of beating up on Georgia...

I would be more then happy to serve my one year, if I would gain ANYTHING from that year.

These 18 year olds they force into the army are either poor or too stupid to get into a university, so would I really want to spend a year surrounded by such people??

Considering that all they use these idiots for is crowd control at events, if you want to serve the real army, you sign a contract and get paid to do so. You don't see anyone coming out of their mandatory service as a pilot or medic. The kids that are doing their mandator year gain nothing constructive, and only learn new shit habits to ruin their life further. My uncle never was the same after his 2 years...not my opinion of course, I wasn't alive then...

I only have to serve if the country goes to war, which is reasonable

Alan65
07-02-2013, 00:55
I would be more then happy to serve my one year, if I would gain ANYTHING from that year.

These 18 year olds they force into the army are either poor or too stupid to get into a university, so would I really want to spend a year surrounded by such people??

Considering that all they use these idiots for is crowd control at events, if you want to serve the real army, you sign a contract and get paid to do so. You don't see anyone coming out of their mandatory service as a pilot or medic. The kids that are doing their mandator year gain nothing constructive, and only learn new shit habits to ruin their life further. My uncle never was the same after his 2 years...not my opinion of course, I wasn't alive then...

I only have to serve if the country goes to war, which is reasonable

But once again, the middle classes with their Ikea kitchens, IPads, Mobile phones do the square root of f()ck all about changing their country other than bribing someone....the Russian Middle classes are even afraid of the ballot box let alone the bullet !!!!!

Take your Ikea kitchens and start believing every bit of shit you are fed from the Duma ....i am glad i can vote for the BNP or SWP in Britian, I have voted for both but simply as a protest vote to wake the mainline political parties up.

Lost in moscow
07-02-2013, 02:08
:1306:

RichardB
07-02-2013, 04:43
But once again, the middle classes with their Ikea kitchens, IPads, Mobile phones do the square root of f()ck all about changing their country other than bribing someone....the Russian Middle classes are even afraid of the ballot box let alone the bullet !!!!!

Take your Ikea kitchens and start believing every bit of shit you are fed from the Duma ....i am glad i can vote for the BNP or SWP in Britian, I have voted for both but simply as a protest vote to wake the mainline political parties up.

Alan65, what are your connections to Russia and why do you seem to have such a huge chip on your shoulder?

yakspeare
07-02-2013, 09:58
Actually Alan has a point. right now a few patriotic souls but mostly the poor and less intelligent, get conscripted. The middle class russian doesn't want their son to join and finds a way out of it, let alone the rich. so the quality of the army doesn't change and no do conditins in it. if Duma deputies had their sons join-then something might actually change for the better. oof course everyone expects the army to be its best if there is a war, but if the pool of talent is limited then how can this be? and because the middleclass don't send their sons the outcry is less about conditions there.

the same is true for voting when the electorate are too lazy to vote or see it as futile or just vote for the incumbant without much thought. if you dn't like the choices in candidates, then perhaps yu yourself should be running and become a politician yourself. People need to be active in the political process or they lose the right to complain, in my opinion.

Lost in moscow
07-02-2013, 10:08
No it's not only the middle cl**** plenty of bright poor people are avoiding the army by just being smart enough to enter the right university, those who know the will have to serve anyway after they graduate, usually look for university with a military section, so when they do graduate, they also enter the army as an officer/captain, w/e they ranks called. I've got friends who served/ing their year, but they were able to go home and sleep in their own beds on the weekend. High enough rank.

Though I'm all for removing the mandatory service, do a draft when war comes, before then, I see no point for it at all.

Voting and the Russian army, nice comparison, one has been around for centuries, the other is a new concept to the country, no shit most will fear it at first, most fear change, give it time, do you think right after the american revolution the whole country went straight to the ballet box to pick Washington? )

yakspeare
07-02-2013, 10:23
ah Russia, she isn't gong anywhere(excuse the pun, so just give her time. Probably why communism lasted as long as it did...ah next year will be utopia...just give it time....

passivity never enacted change, not even slow change.

Alan65
07-02-2013, 12:07
Alan65, what are your connections to Russia and why do you seem to have such a huge chip on your shoulder?

My connections with Russia have primarily been business, I set up projects and work as a business analyst.

My comments are not borne from a chip on my shoulder but more from the frustration of listening to Russians, the reasons being I do think it has the potential to be a great country and it should be a great country.

When there and asking questions like "why do you do your role at work", the typical response I get back is "because it is my job", I then probe for a reson they do their job, thi sget lost on them....these people are senior and middle managers.

I then hear comments like how great Russia is and I ask them to qualify their comments and how they are typically a "hero of one thing or another"....however this has a flip side the flip side being that there are many propblems, the problems are always created by "someone else", i.e. the goverment, immigrants from the CIS etc.

When I ask them what they do about the problems they switch to "professional victims" and say what can I do about current affairs, I ask them who they voted for in the last election and I get responses like "I didn't vote or whats the point etc".

In summary I have found that Russians can go from being a hero of the greatest country in the world to a professional victim in the same sentence, Russia does not punch above her weight but I should'nt complain as I do rather well out of their victim mentality, even after setting programmes up I inevitably get called back a few months later as they have let everything go to ratshit....but it wasn't their fault.

The same can be said of many of the building there, just walk down Sadovaya Ulitsa, Fontanka etc, windows broken, doors falling off of beautiful building....again, not their fault, someone eles. I mentioned this to my Russian teacher who simply said "if you think Moscow and St Petes are bad, go to some of the smaller cities Nizny, Ekatrinaberg, Rostov etc".

So it is simply frustrration at the apathy I see in Russia on many fronts but the complaints keep coming.

mrzuzzo
07-02-2013, 12:10
Alan, I don't recall any run down buildings on the Sadovaya. And there are plenty of "smaller" cities like Yaroslavl which are well renovated.

TolkoRaz
07-02-2013, 12:19
Родина-мать зовет! :) Ни шагу назад! :)

Russian National Anthem - YouTube

Alan65
07-02-2013, 12:19
Here is a classic converstaion of Russian victim mentality, it was a conversation between and a hotel manager:

What is you occupancy this weekend

About 10%

Why is it only 10 % when you can fly from London, Paris, Berlin etc in about 3 hours

People do not come for the weekend as they need visa, the visa situation puts off people coming here for short breaks.

Why dont you offer them visa from the hotel.

What do you means.

Well you give them an invite and pay for their visa.

Why should we do that

Because you have a hotel that only has 10% occupancy and you are losing money.

But it will cost us money.

Have you ever heard of specualte to accumulate, its like an investment.

We can't do that.

Why not.

We dont have the budget.

Have you asked your headoffice for it or put a business plan forward.

No.

Well why not do it.

I dont think it would get approved.

Waitress, can I have abeer please!!!!

mrzuzzo
07-02-2013, 12:25
Perhaps we have a different interpretation of run down but I was there last weekend and saw many, just walk from Sadovaya metro down towards the Marriot, towards Dom 100, walk up and down Lomonovski Prospekt etc.

Nevsky and Moscovski Prospect are fine, walk down Fontanka, walk down areas away from the tourist traps and they are everywhere.

Not any worse than any other capital really... At least I never noticed anything out of the ordinary.

scd167
07-02-2013, 12:48
Not any worse than any other capital really... At least I never noticed anything out of the ordinary.

"Tunnel" vision?

Russian Lad
07-02-2013, 13:55
just walk down Sadovaya Ulitsa, Fontanka etc, windows broken, doors falling off of beautiful building....again, not their fault, someone eles.

Hey, take your dirty, fat imperialistic hands off my beautiful city!:) It is much better than it used to be, primarily because renovations is a good business to steal money from, but still.:))


Why should we do that

Because you have a hotel that only has 10% occupancy and you are losing money.

But it will cost us money.

Have you ever heard of specualte to accumulate, its like an investment.

We can't do that.

Why not.

We dont have the budget.

Have you asked your headoffice for it or put a business plan forward.

No.

Well why not do it.

I dont think it would get approved.

Waitress, can I have abeer please!!!!

What else did you expect from the salaried office plankton? The Western office plankton is more innovative you are saying?

mrzuzzo
07-02-2013, 14:37
Ok ok, you guys convinced me. Russia is sh*t!

scd167
07-02-2013, 14:39
Ok ok, you guys convinced me. Russia is sh*t!

Finally...

:bash:

Alan65
07-02-2013, 15:21
What else did you expect from the salaried office plankton? The Western office plankton is more innovative you are saying?

I am saying a culture exists within Russia that can not think laterally.

Lets take the Sochi Olympics, Russias hope is that visa free travel will be in place by then, now lets assume this does not happen which it probably wont.

Now lets assume there are something like 200,000 bed spaces (units) per night available looking to be sold, now lets assume that the visa situation will put off 10% of people from traveling, or 20,000 units per day.

Now the response from Russia will probably be "visa free travel is not in place due to the EU not signing an agreement" that is why did not do as well as we thought we would.

People may make a margin but that margin could be better.....how ?

Simples, hotel chains take on the visa application process free of charge, if you want to stay in the Hilton, you take you passport to the Hilton in London, Paris etc, the hotel issues the invite, the hotel waives the visa processing fee.

Why would they waive the visa processing fee, simples, it is better to have paid occupany for 2 night from 3 than zero nights from 3 etc, in other words it is better to have 66% of 100 than 0% of 100.

Money will further be taken on F & B within the hotel and in the wider economy....the operational cost base is pretty much the same all year around.

Now, multiply this across every weekend in Russia and you have a sh!t load of revenue coming in, if a visa cost is 75 or 25 per night over a weekend that cost is easily recovered on F & B alone by the hotels.

It is similar to the model Vegas operates on, they give away free booze to keep you in the place, its basic business acumen that gets lost in Russia as the typical option they have is to charge for extras, internet connection 500 r plus per day, breakfast which invariable gets cooked and thrown away.....

There is a serious business model here RL for a travel agent that puts the right package together.

Can I now have my commission please.

Russian Lad
07-02-2013, 16:06
Lets take the Sochi Olympics, Russias hope is that visa free travel will be in place by then, now lets assume this does not happen which it probably wont.

Now lets assume there are something like 200,000 bed spaces (units) per night available looking to be sold, now lets assume that the visa situation will put off 10% of people from traveling, or 20,000 units per day.

Now the response from Russia will probably be "visa free travel is not in place due to the EU not signing an agreement" that is why did not do as well as we thought we would.

People may make a margin but that margin could be better.....how ?

Simples, hotel chains take on the visa application process free of charge, if you want to stay in the Hilton, you take you passport to the Hilton in London, Paris etc, the hotel issues the invite, the hotel waives the visa processing fee.

Why would they waive the visa processing fee, simples, it is better to have paid occupany for 2 night from 3 than zero nights from 3 etc, in other words it is better to have 66% of 100 than 0% of 100.


The same can be said about Europe, if it lifted visas there would be more and more of Russian tourists going there and spending money. The Kremlin tycoons probably don't care too much about the extra money, hey, they own the printing press and there are billions involved in Sochi anyway.
Russia proposed to cancel visas simultaneously, a good offer that Europe suffering from a deep crisis could happily agree upon, but no, the pride and prejudices kick in ahead of making money, talk about the culture devoid of lateral thinking...
On the whole, it is a sound idea, is Europe doing something similar for the Russians so that we could learn from it??

Alan65
07-02-2013, 16:36
The same can be said about Europe, if it lifted visas there would be more and more of Russian tourists going there and spending money. The Kremlin tycoons probably don't care too much about the extra money, hey, they own the printing press and there are billions involved in Sochi anyway.
Russia proposed to cancel visas simultaneously, a good offer that Europe suffering from a deep crisis could happily agree upon, but no, the pride and prejudices kick in ahead of making money, talk about the culture devoid of lateral thinking...
On the whole, it is a sound idea, is Europe doing something similar for the Russians so that we could learn from it??

Actually I had not thought of it like that but why not, a Russian drops their passport off at the Hilton, the Hilton facilitate and pay for the visa, the Russian stays in the Hilton in Paris, London etc.

So a model that could work both ways.

I will be in Paris in a few weeks so I wil give you a progress report/update on my return :)

mrzuzzo
07-02-2013, 22:53
Actually I had not thought of it like that but why not, a Russian drops their passport off at the Hilton, the Hilton facilitate and pay for the visa, the Russian stays in the Hilton in Paris, London etc.

So a model that could work both ways.

I will be in Paris in a few weeks so I wil give you a progress report/update on my return :)

This is how it works in the UAE. Every five star hotel has a visa department, you simply send a scan of your passport to them by email, pay the reservation or leave a credit card, and they email you back with a valid visa for 14 days or more depending on the length of the reservation. It's brilliant.

Alan65
08-02-2013, 00:16
This is how it works in the UAE. Every five star hotel has a visa department, you simply send a scan of your passport to them by email, pay the reservation or leave a credit card, and they email you back with a valid visa for 14 days or more depending on the length of the reservation. It's brilliant.



Bingo....we are on the same page, you should manage a hotel chain or something like that, it is not about the punters going to the hotel it is about the hotel going to the punters....or put another way it is not about the people going to Russia it is about Russia going to the people and the process being made as smooth as possible.....visas are just an inconvienince and teh costs can be recovered with the price of a hotel interne.t connection or a few beers.

MrZ I salute you, the first Russian who understands....well RL aswell.

Jack17
08-02-2013, 00:48
the first Russian who understands.....

Alan, Zuzzo is a Canuck - one of your Colonials.

scd167
08-02-2013, 01:26
Alan, Zuzzo is a Canuck - one of your Colonials.

But he so much wants to be a "Putin" Russian...:fridaysign:

Lost in moscow
21-02-2013, 09:39
That is a lot of money stolen...wish it was possible to be able to accurately predict what that money would actually have been spent on had it not been stolen and taken out of the country, i'd love to see how much good it could have done.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/02/20/uk-russia-cbank-idUKBRE91J07X20130220

bydand
21-02-2013, 10:46
I fear for the life of Sergei Ignatyev if this matter is resolved, rather than swept under the carpet.


Edit; Oh, I forgot, there's corruption in every country!

Lost in moscow
21-02-2013, 11:47
I fear for the life of Sergei Ignatyev if this matter is resolved, rather than swept under the carpet.


Edit; Oh, I forgot, there's corruption in every country!

What better way to show everyone he was right then by killing him, even if gets set up to look like an accident, timing would be everything.

But, the whole there is corruption in every country excuse is an overused bs statement aimed to make the lesser people feel a little better (yea everyone steals so its okish that we do too). You're right, to a point, but there are very few countries with such rampant corruption in literally every section of society. Russia stands alongside a handful of other THIRD world countries when it comes to corruption. They don't even bother to try to hide it, and that is the whole damn problem. Mostly, the people with the power to extort bribes keep the public happy so they stay in office and avoid them to look for a way to remove said individual. So they can go years and years of getting decent sized bribes. Here however, once someone gets in office, its grab as much as you can before your exposed and then try and flee tactic

bydand
21-02-2013, 11:54
Should have done my edit like this...

[sarcasm]Edit; Oh, I forgot, there's corruption in every country![sarcasm]