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YouToo
08-01-2004, 23:32
At the risk of beating a dead horse, here are my thoughts on being married to a Russian woman.

The more the husband knows and is interested in Russian culture the better for the relationship.

Russians become homesick when they leave their country and recover slowly from nostalgia (so do other ex-pats).

Many dont think highly of other nationalities. Comments and attitudes that would be considered racist in the US or Europe are widely accepted in Russia. It comes with the territory.

Russians raise children differently. They tend to give praise less often and have higher academic expectations. Russian mothers are often strict (again by US standards). There is a tendency to instruct, rather than establish a rapport with children. American parents tend to give too much praise and are overly concerned about establishing a rapport, leaving children without enough structure in their lives. US academic standards are too low, especially for mathematics. This difference can work for or against the marriage, provided husband and wife can meet half way.

Many Russians are raised by their grandmothers. Their daughters expect their own mothers to baby-sit, cook and help at home. Without Babushka, many Russian wives feel lonely and lack support. If Babushka is willing and able to help, this can be a good thing (depends on the Babushka).

Russian family culture is matriarchal. Women expect to run the household and the children's education and men earn the money. Its not a democracy. Shes waiting for the day to lay down the law, sometime after you sign the marriage papers. Count on it!

Anyone who thinks their wife will be a sweet little, stay at home housewife because she is Russian is living in a dream world.

Don't think for a minute that your wife will spend cautiously because she lives on a modest income today.

Russian women are no different from any nationality. It all depends on the individual. Every (good) wife has an agenda.

Most Russians have a vague understanding of banking and financial planning. Keep two sets of books open two bank accounts. Give her a budget and expect her to exceed it by about 10%. Tell her she is spending more than you earn even though it isnt true (keep the positive results on the unseen account).

Russian wives are impulsive, feminine and enjoy sex. They try to look great...this makes it easy to forget about the downside of your wifes impulsiveness (always late, runs a disorganized household, often cooks badly). Like I say, Im a happily married man.

To learn more about your prospective Russian bride:

1. Spend time her mother. See how she treats her husband. Chances are high that your wife will tend to treat you the same way (for better or worse).
2. Look for conflicts in the family. Are there problems making comprises? Are the family members close and friendly? The same traditions are likely to continue in your family, with your Russian wife.
3. Watch your wife with children (other than her own). Does she like children? Does she play with them spontaneously? If so, great. If not, she might not actually like children or have much experience with them. That might be Babushka's job, in her mind. Some Russian mothers only want boys and might be disappointed in a girl. It happenssee what she thinks about having a daughter.

For those with Russian wives, am I right about all this? Or is it just me?

Youtoo

Buck
09-01-2004, 05:27
Lots is true!

Some points I would argue - depends on the individual. Obviously, this dude has married the woman who wanted to be married to a foreigner. Or simply - being married was her agenda... you know, somebody to look after her, pay her way etc. For many women from Eastern block this is the only escape.



As far as the knowledge about you partner's culture - it is only natural. I bet he would not think highly of his bride if she had no idea about the husband's background and interests.

Also, many Russians don't have the luxury of babushka's involvement in their upbringing, but rather have two or single parent who are struggling to make ends meet and yet give the best education and care to their children.



Let's face: in the past the public education in Russia was at much higher standard than in North America, Russia has to offer by far more culture and diversity as well - so doest it give us the right to be snobbish to other deadbeat nations? Hell, ya! Everybody has a right to learn and express curiosity.

Yeah, and Americans are to talk about ignorance and snobbism!

Intourist
09-01-2004, 10:06
Top o' the morning to you, YouToo,

A few comments on your comments, if I may.

I like your post conceptually. It's honest, opinionated, and bound to spur discussion. I don't necessarily agree with the content, but if we all agreed all the time, this board would be pretty boring.

You have some interesting observations. I think, however, that several of them are inherently flawed for several reasons, the largest of which you are keen enough to point out yourself (seemingly in contradiction to your reason for posting this); that everyone is an individual. A lot of these 'tidbits' depend on class or social status, upbringing, education, etc. For almost every instance you cited I can think of examples (friends) who support AND contradict your comments. To wit, I know several Russian parents who have exceptionally strong rapports with their children, women who are quite financially savvy, and babushkas who'd tell their kids to go take a flying f*ck in a rolling doughnut before she raised her grandkid.

Almost everything you list is an individual characteristic or stereotype, and this begs the question, on what experience do you base these observations ? They sound more like advice or guidelines, if you ask me, and I find it somewhat presumptuous to consider yourself able to dish out advice on Russian brides operating only your time with one. No ?

Last, don't you think that a lot of the items are somewhat common sense to begin with ? What's so Russian about becoming nostalgic while living abroad ? I've been here 10 years, and I miss home constantly. And don't you think if the Russian wife knows equally as much about her husband's culture as he does about hers this will also be helpful ?

I don't mean this as a flame. Your intentions seem good-natured, and it's human nature to want to somehow categorize and understand that which is foreign. This is especially tricky in cross-cultural marraiges where those spousal traits that are frequently an important measure of personality (culture, social cl**** educated, etc) are so much harder to classify and tie back into our own experiences. Sure, we can all tell a slut from a "zolotoi molodyozh" but how many can distinguish between, for example, someone from middle class Russia as opposed to someone from "upper middle class" ? Is your wife "educated" if she received her bachelors from Tula State Ped Institute instead of MGU ? Is it even appropriate to use terms like social class after 70 years of communism? Does it matter where you went to school if you didn't go to MGIMO or MGU ? It takes a lot of time and cultural sensitivity, and trying to generalize as many of your comments do, is often the only answer.

Anyway, good luck, thanks for the thoughts. Happy Friday.

Intourist

Polia Ivanova
09-01-2004, 12:39
About Russian wives

Plenty of stereotypes surround them. Who is she mail order bride, brought to the UK by someone who is not good enough to get a local gal, incapable to be financially independent and yes its all about marrying a foreigner.
Do you know how many types I heard funny comments by ignorant people (ignorant about Russia in general) when they ask where I am from and so on. Hate it.

Myth No 1 Russian women marry foreigners because they are poor
The truth Look at the demographic situation in Russia, disproportion between male and female population and level of alcoholism among still alive men. Not every woman in Russia will be happy to share a man as a mistress with his wife.

Myth No 2 Russian wives here are a liability to her husband.
The truth I dont know may be I am a rare exemption but I never got a penny from my husband. When he was my boyfriend and he invited me to spend holidays in the UK I always bought tickets myself and when I came to live here I brought a few thousand pounds of my savings to keep me going before I find a job. I earn times more than my hubby now thanks to my growing qualifications.

Myth No 3 Why British men marry Russian women? Russian women think because they love them.
The truth There are true love of cause, but sometimes Russian wife comes as a nice chance for him to use her or to be abusive without punishment. She doesnt work and he keeps her as a house slave because he doesnt give her any monies, she realises that he has a lot of debts and having a dependant woman (preferably with a child) may soften creditors didnt happen to me but I heard a lot of stories.

About British Husbands

Myth No 1 They are gentlemen.
The truth - and then you find yourself in Yorkshire. When we had a cat sometimes I noticed that he is kinder to the cat than to me. Christmas is always stressful time so I blew a fuse and told him that I am going to divorce him because of him being an obnoxious bastard. Yesterday he said Sorry to me for the first time in our five years long marriage. It is nice to know that I have the ability to influence him that much but why should I force something that should come naturally in marriage like politeness and respect? And it makes me think may be there was a reason for him to marry me other than love?

Talk about New Year resolutions

legspreader
09-01-2004, 14:23
the reality is you have the entire spectrum on both sides of the coin but there have been enough horror stories that many of the gals that might have longed for the foreign husband a few years back would prefer the russian husband at least here in moscow.

Kshisya
09-01-2004, 14:27
:rolleyes: well dont know how you can ppl still enjoy this subject...it's soooooooooooooooooo annoying, so boOOOring by now...:rolleyes: somebody stop it!!!!! *beggin look*

Polia Ivanova
09-01-2004, 15:22
Originally posted by DaveUKagain
Yep, legspreader, the visa golddiggers are turning into Moscow propiska golddiggers..... and - bottom line, anyone who`s on a dating site has an itinerary. Anyone who you don`t meet in real life and don`t get to know for a LONG time is always going to be a risk - would you marry someone you hardly knew ??

Old old old subject, done to death elsewhere. I should know, I did most of the "doing to death" ...... sorry folks ;)

blimey, if I get divorced I will be a hunted one with both passport and Moscow propiska (I still have a flat near Moscow)

legspreader
09-01-2004, 16:06
Originally posted by DaveUKagain
Yep, legspreader, the visa golddiggers are turning into Moscow propiska golddiggers..... and - bottom line, anyone who`s on a dating site has an itinerary. Anyone who you don`t meet in real life and don`t get to know for a LONG time is always going to be a risk - would you marry someone you hardly knew ??

Old old old subject, done to death elsewhere. I should know, I did most of the "doing to death" ...... sorry folks ;)

it was sad last june i was heading up to st pete to visit my parents. met this guy who was here visiting mid 50's going to meet his 19 girlfriend/fiancee whom he see every 3 or 4 months for a stretch. him divorced retired her from some porvintial town. Him thinking its true love and she wanted nothing but him. her ???? the really sad thing was i think he wanted to set me up with her 14 year sister :eek:

legspreader
09-01-2004, 16:07
Originally posted by Polia Ivanova
blimey, if I get divorced I will be a hunted one with both passport and Moscow propiska (I still have a flat near Moscow)

yep get yourself a nice house husband ;)

YouToo
10-01-2004, 00:07
Sorry folks, didn't realize most of you are sick of the subject.

I guess it's too easy to stereotype. The subject starts to grow until it becomes massive. Sort of like our wives (just kidding).

Sometimes I wish I had never met my wife. Moments later I am the happiest husband alive and pity anyone without a lovely Russian bride. That's marriage, I suppose.

So Kshisya, I make this solemn promise to never address the subject.

But one last word - look before you leap. There, done.

Cheers!

Vega
10-01-2004, 01:08
I don't wonna be a storyteller, but in my opinion Polya is right: her minds are precise like her English.
:agree:


The best kind of marriage is when the man and woman are both from one class , the same age, and with the same level of intellect and education. They must change each other and feel, that together they are stronger and better them when they are separated.
The best way be never used is never try to use somebody.

Nationality is a minor thing.

, " ", , .

" ".

.

.

ingsoc
10-01-2004, 02:24
I think Vega Olga and many others are right on point here..bottom line..one can simply not make sweeping generalizations either way......I live in Sacramento Calfiornia.and we have a population of individuals mostly from Ukraine and some russian of 75,000. I've met many women here and they are just like any other woman...some nice.some not nice...some smart.some not smart....just like men...I did know one russian from Petersburg who met her husband throu "a foreign affair" in Petersburg..the mail order bride business....he make well over 250K a year and they had a beautiful house in a wonderful area here.still..it wasn't enough for her..and she was upset that she drove a year old mustang and not a convertible Jaguar....she divorced him right around the time her green card came through..BUT....I've known other men who have wonderful russian wives that are great people......bottom line is the individuals involved.....you can get burned..stung..in any relationship here or abroad...be it with an american man or woman.....I know some hate this topic.....but well..it is interesting to hear the various viewpoints.....and such.....just my thoughts

Vega
10-01-2004, 03:06
Dave , I'm sorry, but...

About a personality- my own is strong. If you are not for me, not the same like I'm - FOU, yeas, and I'm not
an admirer of sado-mazo( how to explain).

Must be some "" , the kind of fire, and "", equality. This is a way to a real marriage, not bying-seiling.



:o

Sadie
10-01-2004, 09:55
Topic IS old:agree: , Vega IS right:agree: , Sadiechka IS the best:agree: .
The main thing in every relationship is mutual tender and respect towards each other and equality. Not that I think that materialistic or cultural differences are insuperable obstacles. But too many marriages, especially international marriages take place when two people decide to use each other. One at his late *0-s decides to get a 20 year old charming decent sexy caring cooking cleaning f**g girlie, better photo model to shock everybody around and prove himself that he CAN! Like an award for his heroic but frustrating life, like a revenge to prove himself, his ex (!!!), his colleagues that he is still on track!
The other (a woman) regards such a marriage as a quick solution of her material and other problems, nice (?) change of decorations etc. etc. Its not a marriage, its a DEAL, and it is doomed to fail sooner or later. Even Tramps divorced.
When people feel for each other, when there is love and respect, blah blah blah this part is boring then their marriage can be successful.
Equality? I think its more psychological. Some people accept this pattern of relationship, Id call it father-daughter and in my opinion theres nothing wrong about it. Equality is more important in the sense of mutual respect.
, , , .

lara-in-london
10-01-2004, 10:13
hello all~

Am a newbie, hi. :hooray:
This topic may be old to you all, but I am finding the comments very interesting, and I really appreciate the stories--daveUKagain, please share yours. The stories and experiences are better than generalities about relationships, of course.
Sadie, the Tramps, or the Trumps?
I found some sleep-deprvived humour in this. ;)

Sadie
10-01-2004, 10:16
Lara, welcome, Tramps, Trumps, whoever ;) :D
Dave.. no, puhleez!:D

TTL
10-01-2004, 10:28
Trump and Tramp are synonymous in the case of both Ivana and the present Mrs Tramp....oops..Trump.

tbill
10-01-2004, 10:53
This is kinda off topic but I thought I would share since it is about marriages that involve Americans. This discussion seems to only concern American men and their Russian wives. This is the otherwhelming crosscultural pattern. From my perspective, the success of such a relationship is going to depend on how much value society places on the institution of the family. The state of marriage in America is eroding the society. The frequency of divorce and the number of single parent families is the cause of large numbers of fatherless young men and women who have no sense of right and wrong. They repeat the mistakes of their parents and the cycle goes on. Ok, nothing new, you might say. But you have to wonder how far it can go. The African-American community has illegitimacy rates of around 70%. The white community is approaching 30%. That is the same rrate as black families in the 1960's. How long can a society survive when it puts its children in such a harmful enviroment of single mothers and men who feel no responsibility to anyone but themselves.

Until marriage means something again. I would never want to be married in the United States. It is too easy for a woman to divorce her husband (and better than 2/3rds of all divorces are initiated by women) and keep him from being a meaningful part of his childrens lives. No fault divorce is far to readily available and, I believe, that the equal custody of children would make divorce a less attractive prospect for both parties.

The insouciant attitude of the sixties has no place in the foundation of society: the family. Leaving it should carry real costs for both parents.

Vega
10-01-2004, 11:26
Dave, I'm sorry, but if you call me Ooty pooty Roosian pooseycat, you are a bit of sick, and if you everywhere live the ;-) ( and if it mean ironical), please I'm sorry, if I hurt you someway, it was not specially

Or you just try to smok a cat , instead the sigar.



I try to be respectfull with everyone.

I'm in love and happy.

Not all the people the same.








:( :( :(

trampler
10-01-2004, 13:24
Originally posted by Sadie
Topic IS old:agree: , Vega IS right:agree: , Sadiechka IS the best:agree: .


U might be good sadie :) but the best u aint, the best is my Wife!

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

after that comes K-girl and then u come

are u angry with me now?

And yes people i am married to a Russian woman and she's the best!


And i recognise a lot of what i read in here

Sadie
10-01-2004, 13:48
Originally posted by trampler
U might be good sadie :) but the best u aint, the best is my Wife!

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

after that comes K-girl and then u come

are u angry with me now?


Tramplerik, ME? Angry??
Da I am an angel sent to the Earth to bring in light and good into ppl's lives!!! ;) :)

How do you know I am not the best?? What are the argments??!! U have none! Silly, look at the sign above my avatar! Don't you blieve ur eyes??!!!!! !!

Anywayz, everybody :wavey:, HAVE A NICE WEKEND!!!!!!!!!!! :hooray:

trampler
10-01-2004, 14:15
Originally posted by Sadie
Tramplerik, ME? Angry??
Da I am an angel sent to the Earth to bring in light and good into ppl's lives!!! ;) :)

How do you know I am not the best?? What are the argments??!! U have none! Silly, look at the sign above my avatar! Don't you blieve ur eyes??!!!!! !!

Anywayz, everybody :wavey:, HAVE A NICE WEKEND!!!!!!!!!!! :hooray:

Have you looked at mine? Resident idiot

Didnt your mommy ever teach you not to take the village fool/resident idiot literally?


And about arguments? i have none, i just know!


Have a good weekend babe

DPG
10-01-2004, 15:22
About British Husbands

Myth No 1 They are gentlemen.
The truth - and then you find yourself in Yorkshire. When we had a cat sometimes I noticed that he is kinder to the cat than to me

Yorkshire = Gentlemen?????!

I'm still laughing so hard that the chair is about to collapse!! This must get the award for the most humourous excerpt from any post ever on expat.ru!!

I can just see the look on sweet little Olga/Natalia/Katya's face when she arrives in Yorkshire to find that hubby likes nothing more than to talk about cricket, ale, farming and "being down boozer wit lads"...!

Who says that steroetypes are dead!! (or aren't true for that matter!).

Sadie
10-01-2004, 19:53
Originally posted by DPG
Yorkshire = Gentlemen?????!


of course not!
DPG, agree, Yorkshire is my dog

Jet
10-01-2004, 20:19
hey, Dave,
would u still marry a russian woman? i have seen many great russian women, but they are all married

Vega
10-01-2004, 21:09
thanks Dave about your explanations,
but, once time more Ooty pooty Roosian pooseycat,
and your name will , forever.
, .
HOw to write this word?

Aha.Equality.



:D

Jet
10-01-2004, 22:48
OK, agree with u, as long as there are genuine feelings and honesty...

Happy 2004 for u 2!!

dai
10-01-2004, 23:44
wow this sounds really miserable as an experience bandwagon!!!

Russians are great, absolutely interesting...and fantastic when you make an effort to meet them on their home ground. + what a past to have to live with - what a vast country and what an awesome winter, and what incredible difficultied to struggle with!

Perhaps you should take more time to live in their country and not invite them to the Europe they hate and despise...after all they never needed us for putting people in space and pumping oil and diamonds.
They didn't get a fat lot of help in 1943 when Hitler decided to embark on a mass genocide in their territory, and they've had 10 years to adapt form a centrally planned economy!

Solzenitsyn described russians leaving their country as spiritual castration,- don't be suprised if it hurts then!

GT

tbill
11-01-2004, 05:22
DaveUK,

"Tbill, do you believe everything you read on the dating sites ? ;-) Dating sites tend to tell you that marriage in America inevitably (almost) leads to divorce. As a matter of fact, the divorce rate in most areas of Russia is higher than in the US and it`s easier to get a divorce there. I don`t know anyone amongst my circle of friends in Volgograd who was married in 2000 and remains married now. "

I can't speak to Russian divorce rates. I imagine alcoholism is a big factor. I did not learn about this info from dating sites. Much of what is posted there concerns wonderfulnees of Russian women and Western men. Good advertising but it is not entirely outside of the real reason WM and RW seek each other out. Regardless of whom you hold to blame for the high rates of divorce, it would be good for American society to strengthen the institution. There have been enough studies showing the correlation between divorce and poverty, crime, etc. to remove my doubt that I do not want to add to the problem. On a personal note, I have enough friends who are good men whose wives have divorced them for frivolous reasons. Women have almost nothing to lose from divorce. And the factr that women initiate divorce about 70% of the time is proof of that.

"Or the UK, for that matter. And I wouldn`t say that a single mother represents a harmful environment."

Most child killings are done by mothers. Children are more likely to be abused and killed by non-related men (mother's boyfriend). Children from single-parent female headed households are more likely to get arrested, get pregnant under the age of eighteen and drop out of school. And this is all true no matter what the demographic: rich/poor, white/black or education level of the parents. Children suffer when the biological father is not a part of that child's life. Don't fall for the false statistics of NOW. By the way, Superbowls coming up and I was wondering where most guys were going to watch it and beat their wives? :D

For the humor challenged, it was a joke about the lie that was told a number of years ago relating to the increase of dometic battery on Superbowl Sunday.

Vega
11-01-2004, 14:26
The Russian Pussicat before marriage with a Rich Foreign Boyfriend http://

Vega
11-01-2004, 14:28
The same Pussicat exactlly after marriage, if she is not so wize in the saling-buying , ,.http://

Polia Ivanova
11-01-2004, 15:47
Originally posted by Vega
The same Pussicat exactlly after marriage, if she is not so wize in the saling-buying , ,.http://

It is not THAT BAD


one thing is true women shouldnt ignore warning signs, love doesnt conquer alland even if it does there are exceptions.

http://www.bratok.co.uk/showthread.php?t=12813&page=1&pp=15&highlight=%EC%EE%EB%F7%E8%F2

read this one in Russian unfortunately. I didnt participate in this thread but radical change in British men after boyfriend to husband upgrade is a well observed fact of life.

Jet
11-01-2004, 16:49
I have heard of many such stories in the Netherlands, even tried to date one such unfotunate divorced lady as they all sound to be almost perfect. Well, its life, people end up in bad marriages on all sides of the borders, regardless of nationalities and "character". i still personally would like to marry a russian woman, b/c I like to speak Russian. However, u never know what kind of luck u will have, Russian woman can be "bitchy".

Polia Ivanova
11-01-2004, 17:35
Originally posted by Jet Li
Russian woman can be "bitchy".

quite right

I wasn't before the marriage but I have learnt the stuff by now. When thank you, please and sorry drop out of the family conversation you just cannot help but adopt this "stuff you too" attitude. May be that is why I am not so happy.

PS - while browsing found a fantastic site with quotes for the topic:

Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.

A person, who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person. (This is very important. Pay attention. It never fails.)

"There are a number of mechanical devices that increase sexual arousal, particularly in women. Chief amongst these is the Mercedes Benz 380L convertible." Author Unknown.

"See, the problem is that God gives men a brain and a penis, and only enough blood to run one at a time." Robin Williams.

"Bigamy is having one wife/husband too many. Monogamy is the same." Oscar Wilde.

enjoy it

http://e-wok.com.au/e-Spam/e-Spam.php?intSpamID=178

Vega
11-01-2004, 21:47
Dave, you provocated me without reason; Reach Boyfrend available in Russia, not only in England. I'm not a little girl from Kukuyevo village wich never it something sweeter them a carrot.

--Vega, miiiiiiiiaoowwwww. ;-)) You just reminded everyone of the other side of the coin - "I want a rich foreign boyfriend."

It's your mind's problem.

--Russian women CAN be bitchy

Yeasss!!!EVERY women can.

Dear Polya,

thanks and I agree with you.

The happiest story wich I now - the girl finisht her education in US, them make nice career in UK, them married with , English -born man with a Russian roots. Her husband is real prince, .

The worst one - my poor friend Lenka. Poor Lenka is in LOndon now. Her husband call she every five minutes and ask: Where are you? He is jealous pig, and she told me a lot of bad about him; several times she called the police. But she desided keep wedlock, I'm not shure that till the end of her days.

And I know several normal storys about normal life.

, . , . .

. !

Polia Ivanova
11-01-2004, 22:26
Originally posted by Vega

, " ", , .



here it goes Unequal marriage

Polia Ivanova
11-01-2004, 22:28
Originally posted by Vega


" ".

.

.

Fedotov Choosy bride

Sadie
11-01-2004, 22:35
okay, how about this, that's a real pic :D :thumbsup: !!
whata couple, eh!!;) isn't it obvious they love each other fondly!

J.D.
11-01-2004, 23:08
Looks like that Brit did all right, Sadie.
I assume he's a Brit, I would think an American would have done a little better.

Sadie
11-01-2004, 23:14
Kentucky;)

Vega
11-01-2004, 23:44
Polya and Sadie, why you are so cool?



:D

earl
12-01-2004, 05:10
That's quite a combover he's sporting. When people mistake your partner for your child, eww...

-earl-

tbill
12-01-2004, 06:58
Originally posted by DaveUKagain
Well, I`ll take your word for it. I was only engaged to a Russian woman and living with one for 4 years - most of my friends are Russians living IN Russia, which I`ve visited, or Russians married to UK folks. I`ve visited Russia, studied Russian history, culture, language and I`d actually (am I saying this ?) like to live there permanently.

What do I know compared to a dating site ?? :D

TBill, you have much to learn, grasshopper. ;-)

PS Oh FUDGE. And here`s me saying I wouldn`t reply to this thread. ;) Right, konets, I`m off somewhere else.... Sadie, Kshi, you can uncover your eyes, now.... :D

Dave,
I would never presume to lecture you about anything Russian. I was trying to make a point about the deteriorating institution of marriage in America and much of the English speaking world. It is my belief that it is too easy to leave a marriage when children are involved and that lack of fathers is a fundamental cause of delinquency and crime. I hope you don't take this as an attack on your opinion. It wasn't, I was trying to add perspective to the topic of marriage between Russian Women and Western Men.

KL,
Bill

J.D.
12-01-2004, 08:08
As for our friend from Kentucky - I think he`ll get EXACTLY what he deserves.
Just curious Dave. Exactly what does this guy and deserve.?
Oh yeah, and how do you make your determination?
Maybe you could tell me what I deserve, or do you actually need to see my picture first.[

earl
12-01-2004, 10:42
True love :D

-earl-

sfjohns67
12-01-2004, 11:00
Gee Dave, never thought I'd see the day when I'd have to throw out the bullsh*t flag at YOU...

...but what a crock of sh*t! Get off yer high horse and judge your own damned self before you go casting dispersions on others.
Where exactly do you or anybody else get off on automatically assuming the two in this picture are mismatched? Do you realize you are practicing much the same "lookism" that you and others have criticized elsewhere? While I admit I'm a horrible judge of women's ages, I honestly don't see where these two are overtly wrong for each other. Yeah, the guy has a smile like a cheesy Vegas lounge act - so what? Does that automatically mean he has the corresponding personality? Is it the girl's long blonde hair and miniskirt that make her a gold-digging slut, or are you some sort of "phrenology at a distance" expert that allows you to accurately gauge her personality and marital expectations? I realize there is probably a "story" behind this picture, to be found at the website you mentioned, but your comments seem more based on the pic itself.

As previously stated, this entire topic is stupid. Successful marriage is based on mutual respect, realistic expectations, and adequate communication of BOTH, plus the ability to deal with any applicable cross-cultural hurdles that may arise. If you marry with any other agenda, you will almost definitely get what you deserve. I don't discount yours or anybody else's pain at being deceived, but then again, it ain't like the mail-order bride scam was just invented yesterday.

[jumps off of soapbox and huffily stomps off into the horizon]

earl
12-01-2004, 11:03
Err, I missed the contest part. That's Anna... kissing her 98 year old husband (who, quite coincidentally, is worth 1.5B dollars.) He's long dead, and she now has her own TV show. She's amazingly funny in a sort of really high, really fat, really dumb way.

Edit: and decidedly not Russian, just to make that clear. But still amazingly funny :)

-earl-

Sadie
12-01-2004, 11:23
Damn it, but what's wrong about it? Everything costs in this life. IF the girl bcomes the last best thing in somebody's life, if the guy is happy with it, WHY THE HELL NOT??? Okay, why would he leave his millions to grandkids or sisters or brothers who dream of his death from the very beginning ?? There is a nice movie 'Greed' - it's fun, and SFJ is right - it's all about expectations, and adequate communication.
I wouldn't judge such couples, it's like a nurse and a patient, and again, why not?? Why not to let them be?

legspreader
12-01-2004, 11:24
Originally posted by Sadie
okay, how about this, that's a real pic :D :thumbsup: !!
whata couple, eh!!;) isn't it obvious they love each other fondly!

sadly you can see that same situation the world over. ever heard of anna nicole smith and her billionare husband that could have been her grandfather or great grandfather....
acutaully just realized thats them in the pic at the top of the page i think...

earl
12-01-2004, 11:28
Originally posted by Sadie
Damn it, but what's wrong about it? Everything costs in this life. IF the girl bcomes the last best thing in somebody's life, if the guy is happy with it, WHY THE HELL NOT??? Okay, why would he leave his millions to grandkids or sisters or brothers who dream of his death from the very beginning ?? There is a nice movie 'Greed' - it's fun, and SFJ is right - it's all about expectations, and adequate communication.
I wouldn't judge such couples, it's like a nurse and a patient, and again, why not?? Why not to let them be?

Actually, I don't have a problem with it; I just find it funny. You can't take it with you so you might as well spend it. Part of the reason I find it funny is I've seen a couple of her shows; she is really obnoxiously stupid.

On a serious note, though, I fail to see any difference between her situation and prostitution... Are you OK with the latter?

-earl-

sfjohns67
12-01-2004, 11:35
your last paragraph is 100% right, SF
Which one, the one where I stomp off in a huff? :D

Seriously, I agree that the vast majority of successful matches are between people who are more or less in the same "attractiveness group" with each other. I even remember reading an intricate explanation of this in my college psychology class. Any broad difference in age/looks is suspect, and I agree that most often it is rightly so. I was just on my usual anti-generalization soapbox, and since I am happily married to a Russian woman that I did NOT seek for her nationality nor her mine, it's a pretty easy one to stand on for this topic.

As for Anna Nicole....I had trouble figuring out which angle was more disgusting - his or hers. I also agree with Earl, they did, in a twisted fashion, deserve each other.

sfjohns67
12-01-2004, 11:37
Originally posted by DaveUKagain
SF - here`s our friend again
Sheesh....you got me on that one, he's inching pretty close to "scrogging the babysitter" territory in this one, not to mention the "I'm about to get me some jailbait" look on his face.

Yikes!

Sadie
12-01-2004, 11:42
Originally posted by earl
On a serious note, though, I fail to see any difference between her situation and prostitution... Are you OK with the latter?

-earl-
I am okay with almost everything, earl
the difference is not significant, I agree, but I am not okay with only one thing, u know, - hypocrisy. What are you personally ready to do for money? Everybody has his own ways and principles etc. etc.

I remember I was a lil girl and was talking to my friend. She said, would you ever jump into shit (i mean literally shit), and swim to get a case with money, if you knew there was $ 1 000 000 in it?

It is an amasingly philosophical q. Ask yourself. Then increase the amount of money in the case, the distance, add people watching you from the coast etc. etc. It is disgusting, but it is people's nature. Sie est la vie (wrong spelling, da?) :)

earl
12-01-2004, 11:51
Originally posted by Sadie
I remember I was a lil girl and was talking to my friend. She said, would you ever jump into shit (i mean literally shit), and swim to get a case with money, if you knew there was $ 1 000 000 in it?

It is an amasingly philosophical q. Ask yourself. Then increase the amount of money in the case, the distance, add people watching you from the coast etc. etc. It is disgusting, but it is people's nature. Sie est la vie (wrong spelling, da?) :)

I have a friend who swims in shit, literally :D He's a diver for the deep tunnel projects -- 17 miles of 30+ foot diameter tunnels underneath the city of Milwaukee used to hold overflow from the wastewater treatement plants in case of heavy rain, etc. They have some quantity of liquid in them most of the time and have to be regularly inspected. Who do you call but a diver? He does earn almost $1000/hour though, but still... I would *dread* drysuit tears. They're a real problem in this case becase you would need to detox the drysuit, meaning you have to wear vulcanized rubber, which is notoriously easy to tear -- all the tougher materials are almost impossible to sterilize. And god only knows what shows up in the sewer systems.

-earl-

Sadie
12-01-2004, 11:55
Originally posted by DaveUKagain
Sadie, if your eighteen year old daughter came back with a fat, sweaty 45 year old foreigner, you`d kick her all around the kitchen and scream your head off at her. ;-))


Would I jump in the sh*t and swim with a suitcase full of money ? Nope. No matter how much. It`s called "self respect. "

first - i use different methods, yellin' duzn't help in such situations, try to understand the reasons and explain all the possible consequenses - that's my method

second - u won't, okay, great, wish you never find yourself in such situation, ppl's nature is unprodictable ;)

allice
12-01-2004, 12:14
Dave, I disagree with your last post. What's wrong with an age difference of say 18 years and the fact that the two are of different nationalities if two people have a lot of love for each other, have great fun spending time with each other and have the same sexual preferences?

allice
12-01-2004, 12:15
PS My dad is happily married to a lady 11 years his junour. :)

Intourist
12-01-2004, 12:15
Well God-Damn ! Glad I don't haves me any of dat dere self-respect stuff !

Sadie, I'd go get that briefcase ! Who needs integrity when you got a million bucks ! I'll go buy me some integrity with the all my money.

Dave, my man, save the self-respect bit for more serious stuff like starving children, boycotting apartheid, and low-cost medicine for Africa. What's a little sh*t between your teeth at the end of the day ?

Sadie, 17,500 ! ??? !

Intour

Sadie
12-01-2004, 12:18
Originally posted by DaveUKagain
Sadie - :) Morality IS absolute.

OK, we`ve established that you`d be deeply unhappy if your eighteen year old daugher wanted to marry a fat, ugly 45 year old Westerner for the money.

Now how would YOUR parents feel if you went off with a 50 - something year old foreigner ???

So. It IS an absolute, isn`t it ? ;-))))

morality is not absolute, i am not into all these philosophical theories, but it's my understandin' based on my experience

and we haven't established anything, Dave, I do not judge people, at least try not to, I have my point of view but respect people who have their own, what ppl do, how they earn, how they survive - it's not my business

morality is a tricky thing, David, society changes, so does the morality, a prefer flexible morality ;) i am a lawyer, remember - the most immoral ppl :D

Sadie
12-01-2004, 12:19
Originally posted by Intourist

Sadie, 17,500 ! ??? !

Intour

Intour, that's why I adore you, we'll do that together, :D:D:D

, ;)

allice
12-01-2004, 12:31
Originally posted by DaveUKagain
Allice. - and both your parents are Russian and there`s none of the issues here. My Dad was 11 years older than my Mum and that was fine. But do a search on the net and you`ll see 50 year old men looking for 20 year old girls.....

The lady's not my mom. But we get along really well. But if we had to live all together -- that would probably make things difficult. The reason I commented on your post was that it sounded like stating that no relationship between an older foreigner and a younger Russian woman work. I know it can. Anyway, we are back to "it all depends on the pesonalities" part of the conversation. :)

Intourist
12-01-2004, 12:36
Originally posted by DaveUKagain
Sadie - :D as ever. ;-)

Intourist - ;) BUT at the end of the day you get to wake up each morning and say "Oh CHRIST, did I actually do that for the money ? ;-) I`ve had a little too much sh*t between my teeth in life and I decided some time back that the taste didn`t agree with me. ;-) You spend the money once. You live with the consequences forever. ;-)

Dave, alright, I was half serious previously, but I'll be completely honest here. Given the situation exactly as Sadie described, I really don't see what it has to do with self-respect. It's a little inconvenient, but so what ?

When I look at myself in the mirror and ask myself if I actually did that, do you know what I'm gonna answer ? "Yeah baby ! For a million bucks. For a few second swim in sh*t !" It's only sh*t. You got dirty. You didn't kill innocent babies, sell your body for sex or cheat on your wife, etc. My morals and values are still intact and clean, even if my clothes aren't.

What consequences ? I took a shower immediately after I got out of the pond !

But what am I trying to convince you for ? Sadie and I want that briefcase for ourselves. You missed your chance, fella ! Sh*t-Lake, here I come !

allice
12-01-2004, 12:38
Originally posted by DaveUKagain
We are, aren`t we ? ;-) No, it CAN work - older foreign man, younger Russian woman, and you`re of course right, Allice. But. There are so many questions about motives ... on either side of the coin.....

I think putting an ad on a dating agency meant for foreigners is pretty much an answer to most questions at least on on side of that coin. Correct if I'm wrong.

earl
12-01-2004, 12:38
I'm on the "swim in the shit" team too -- you can take a shower, burn your clothes, and inject penicillin by the ounce once you're out. But a million bucks? That means paying my and both my younger brothers' college tuition... I'd do it in a heartbeat.

-earl-

earl
12-01-2004, 12:48
That depends on whose definition of morally questionable or reprehensible we're using. I find that mine is pretty far outside of some peoples' and certainly inside of others'.

As for what I consider morally reprehensible? Probably not... but that's a pretty small list -- murder, rape, exploitation of children, and betraying of friends; not much else makes the list.

However, I certainly would kill certain people -- there's a list of people in this world I'd probably do pro bono.

Oh, and one moral cleaning shower coming right up :D


-earl-

earl
12-01-2004, 12:54
I personally prefer Lagavulin or most of the other islay single malts -- but those are for drinking, not for getting drunk.

-earl-

Sadie
12-01-2004, 12:54
Originally posted by DaveUKagain
Sadie - :D as ever. ;-)

Intourist - ;) BUT at the end of the day you get to wake up each morning and say "Oh CHRIST, did I actually do that for the money ? ;-) I`ve had a little too much sh*t between my teeth in life and I decided some time back that the taste didn`t agree with me. ;-) You spend the money once. You live with the consequences forever. ;-)

Allice. - and both your parents are Russian and there`s none of the issues here. My Dad was 11 years older than my Mum and that was fine. But do a search on the net and you`ll see 50 year old men looking for 20 year old girls.....

rephrasing you, Dave, I'll make one last comment for now:
BUT at the end of your life you wake up and say "oh Cheesus, were my moral principles THAT right? Was i right being that stubborn?" You live your life and your principles and moral values change, life makes it's corrections. I wish you never become frustrated with the ones you have and struggle for, wish you never find out it was not worth it.

;)

Intourist
12-01-2004, 13:09
Dave,

Ah. You want to get all philosophical and stuff. What if I found that briefcase in a phone booth and saw the guy walking away ? Would I return it to him ? What if I recognized him as a criminal king-pin ? What if I knew he'd get shot and killed afterwards ?
Blah, blah, blah.

Oh alright. ok. I guess you did a good job of tying it all back into the original question of Russian wives/marrying for money/etc. Sorry. I didn't realize you were speaking in broader terms. I guess I was reading a little too literally into the Sadie's question.

So, let's get back to Sh*t Lake. Would you do it, Dave ? :D

earl
12-01-2004, 13:14
Originally posted by DaveUKagain
And. Marrying a rich foreigner you don`t love in exchange for a better lifestyle IS swimming in the sh*t.... moral sh*t, that is. Total character failure, I`d call it.
Eh, it depends on if you tell the foreigner or not. How long does it take to get a green card + residency permit? Maybe that's worth a couple years of sex to some people.

Anyway, ordinarily, I'd agree with you. However, I went on a service mission to a couple countries and it really changed my point of view -- people who are literally starving to death, or dying for want of a couple dollars of antibiotics available at ten thousand pharmacies across the states -- while unlikely to attract a foreign suitor, are in a situation where perhaps desperate measures are called for.

-earl-

legspreader
12-01-2004, 13:16
this thread reminds of the senario in the movie casino where rober dinero convinces sharon stone to marry him for a whole shit load of money. because he loved her and he thought she'd love him in time....

Polia Ivanova
12-01-2004, 13:22
As Dave said it is all seen through personal experience.
I think a lot of Russian women well before the iron curtain was open had the very unpleasant business of marrying somebody for a status or change of environment I mean peasants without passports in Stalin time and limitchiki later. For those who doesnt know po limitu was a social program in 60s-80s when people from not Moscow could get Moscow propiska by working in Moscow heavy or dirty industry (so heavy or dirty Moscovites didnt work there) for 20 or something around this figure years. When you marry somebody from Moscow you get propiska straight away (usually, if your in-laws are not completely bitchy).

Some of my mums friends went this way so I think in many Russian families marrying for a status is considered acceptable.

Intourist
12-01-2004, 13:29
Actually, the whole question reminds me of a tale that I think is probably more of an urban legend (I've heard it told as a joke and as a true story about Noah Webster among other accounts) but it's appropriate nonetheless.

Joe asks the upper-crust society lady next to him whether she'd sleep with him for $1,000,000
"Of course" she replies, "For a million dollars, I do about anything !"
"Well would you sleep with me for one dollar ?"
"What do you take me for ?" asks the lady with mild indignation.
"I thought we'd already determined that." Replies Joe. "We're just haggling over the price now".

:)

legspreader
12-01-2004, 13:36
[i]Some of my mums friends went this way so I think in many Russian families marrying for a status is considered acceptable. [/B]

Not just russian familys but those around the world. my parents tell me from time to time "you can marry a rich girl just as easy as poor one". they're saying it mostly in jest but they're a little bit serious about it as well and want to plant the seed for thought. The way i look at it i'm going to marry the one i want and that wants me rich or poor...

allice
12-01-2004, 13:41
I hate to confirm this but.. Marrying for status is considered acceptable.

Polia Ivanova
12-01-2004, 13:45
Originally posted by legspreader
Not just russian familys but those around the world. my parents tell me from time to time "you can marry a rich girl just as easy as poor one". they're saying it mostly in jest but they're a little bit serious about it as well and want to plant the seed for thought. The way i look at it i'm going to marry the one i want and that wants me rich or poor...

For "limitchitsa" marrying a Moscow chap wasn't poor to rich road - one of my mother's friends tolerated years of verbal and physical abuse for it. She was really happy when she became a widow. Divorcing later didn't resolve the problem with housing shortage divorced people sometimes carried on living together. Horrible time..

legspreader
12-01-2004, 13:50
Originally posted by Polia Ivanova
For "limitchitsa" marrying a Moscow chap wasn't poor to rich road - one of my mother's friends tolerated years of verbal and physical abuse for it. She was really happy when she became a widow. Divorcing later didn't resolve the problem with housing shortage divorced people sometimes carried on living together. Horrible time..

understood but on that note its more of poor to rich situation in the cercumstances we are talking about now...

allice
12-01-2004, 14:08
Well think of what you've escaped.. Had you actually married her, you would've had a huge ordeal to go through.. Not to mention that being with someone who does not love you is a pain..

legspreader
12-01-2004, 14:08
as mentioned before its the casino syndrome...

Anouk
12-01-2004, 15:16
Some people on here have been saying it's morally wrong to marry for money and status - it's easy to say that, it just depends on the situation. For example I have been shopping and have seen a younger woman in her 20's with a man in his 40's, buying her $800 boots. I'm just in the store, window shopping........thinking I'll buy boots like that when I've finished my MA, and eventually find a job, and paid off my tuiton fees..........I sometimes wonder why I'm bothering to work so hard when I could just find an older man to give me a good lifestyle.......i.e not worrying about money, having a nice house (instead of paying $800 a month in rent for a flat share) etc.

Or i remember complaining to my friends about how difficult it can be to get a green card and one replied - can't you marry an American?

The only reservations that I would have are not moral but more that I would have to sacrifice my personal freedom, but if you don't have much freedom or oppotunities to begin with I can't blame foreign women from using this route for a better life.

Polia Ivanova
12-01-2004, 15:20
Originally posted by Anouk


The only reservations that I would have are not moral but more that I would have to sacrifice my personal freedom, but if you don't have much freedom or oppotunities to begin with I can't blame foreign women from using this route for a better life.

well said - may be that is the reason

allice
12-01-2004, 15:34
Anouk, isn't living with someone you don't love another reservation? What's so grand about having $800 boots anyway?

Jet
12-01-2004, 15:35
Well, it is difficult to determine the border in this "$800 case". In my case, i am sure i will be able to give my wife a nice life style but not now, over a couple of years. So, it is still probably better to look with both your heart and mind, then grow together, while reaching for the goals. World of men doesn't just end up with older men, with money, rather it starts with men who have ambitions and wil power

legspreader
12-01-2004, 15:36
Originally posted by Anouk
Some people on here have been saying it's morally wrong to marry for money and status - it's easy to say that, it just depends on the situation. For example I have been shopping and have seen a younger woman in her 20's with a man in his 40's, buying her $800 boots. I'm just in the store, window shopping........thinking I'll buy boots like that when I've finished my MA, and eventually find a job, and paid off my tuiton fees..........I sometimes wonder why I'm bothering to work so hard when I could just find an older man to give me a good lifestyle.......i.e not worrying about money, having a nice house (instead of paying $800 a month in rent for a flat share) etc.

Or i remember complaining to my friends about how difficult it can be to get a green card and one replied - can't you marry an American?

The only reservations that I would have are not moral but more that I would have to sacrifice my personal freedom, but if you don't have much freedom or oppotunities to begin with I can't blame foreign women from using this route for a better life.

You also have to worry about there is no security in this situation once you get to a certain age he will drop you and go for someone younger. that is the reality when you're a mistress in practice or reality.... In the above senario you are on retainer and can be dismissed at his whim...

Anouk
12-01-2004, 16:52
Originally posted by allice
Anouk, isn't living with someone you don't love another reservation? What's so grand about having $800 boots anyway?

I agree. When I think about it it's silly to want $800 boots.............it's about status, fashion etc.......but I'm silly

My point is that I'm working hard right now, so that perhaps one day I'll be able to drop $800 on boots, without thinking. But if I chose a bloke with money i could have them right now, this option seems easier on the surface..........so I see why women do it.

allice
12-01-2004, 16:57
I can see that as well. Many thanks to my dad who taught me that you can rely on people but should never depend (financially) on anyone but yourself.

:)

Polia Ivanova
12-01-2004, 17:16
Originally posted by allice
I can see that as well. Many thanks to my dad who taught me that you can rely on people but should never depend (financially) on anyone but yourself.

:)

this one works for men all right but what about being a mother. There are times you just cannot do it on your own - being a mum is not a paid job even in the UK - gov gives you very little and then you are dependent on goverment

finding a right man yes it is all about the right stuff

Just a thought about disposable wives - many years ago I was working for Soviet Army and I heard some thoughts aloud from officers about reaching 40 something retiring and re-marrying to younger ones. If you know about level of dedication for an officer wife...following her husband everywhere...I definetely learnt my lesson

Jet
12-01-2004, 17:19
Polia, there are bad storries on both sides of the gender front line

YouToo
12-01-2004, 20:26
Now I have to add a few words to the conversation I started.
I started this conversation and great to see it has veered off in different directions.

Of all the things said the thing that stands out is that love conquers all. I think Polia you mentioned it. Very true. It can overcome a host of ills.

To go back to the boring topic of cultural differences - in our household, our theme is all things Russian. Language, culture, activities are as Russian as possible. We try not to speak English at home with our kids or each other. In many ways Russian culture is actually the glue that keeps us together in our family.

It seems like many marriages with mixed nationalities dont share this common interest in each others culture. The couple faces a choice, either get interested and benefit from it, or not and lose the opportunity.

As for the marriages for convenience, money, passports thats probably grist for another mill. It seems common enough, not only in Russia.

YT

legspreader
12-01-2004, 21:23
i think its foolish you dont speak any english children are like sponges and they can pick up a second or third language with ease when they are young. you are doing them a great diservice. my sister in laws mother is was born in the ukraine and she speaks ukrainian around my nephews and now they've picked it up...

YouToo
12-01-2004, 22:31
Good point, not to overdo it in one language. We live in the US...our kids get English at school, with friends and so on. I do their English homework with them and speak English with them when we're away from the house. Their English is native. We try to speak Russian at home and our kids still speak Russian among themselves when they play. But English is creeping in. They are still little but judging by others, English pretty much takes over after awhile...

Polia Ivanova
12-01-2004, 22:48
Just remembered

it was more than two years ago - one credit card commercial on TV

it is about how British "big brother" builds respect to other nations.

one of the complaints was mine and naturally they didn't uphold it (borderline case my eye)

What do you think people who have seen that commercial think about me when I say I am Russian and I am here because I married an Englishman.


http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/itc/itc_publications/complaints_reports/advertising_complaints/show_complaint.asp-ad_complaint_id=594.html

what respect and culture???

J.D.
12-01-2004, 22:55
Hiya JD - Hiya JD -

Well. Ahem, cough splutter - I`m "ordinary" looking, and I don`t go looking for a supermodel based on the fact that any supermodel attracted to me is more likely to be REALLY attracted to something else entirely. Vega was mentioning village girls, earlier - some village girls are notorious for marrying anyone to get out of Russia. But I`ve seen big city girls pull the same stunt - usually more successfully, as they`re more sophisticated.

JD, as Sadie says, if you look at the picture.... can a couple like that (given the whole foreign man / Russian fiancee situation) fall for each other ? At the end of the day, given time, the lady in question will (possibly) become a US citizen and then think about how to move on and better herself. I`ve seen it happen before with a few couples - "get out of Russia" and then wonder about what will happen next. I know one poor guy - real geek but a nice guy - who brought a real shark over. Her ICQ profile at the moment chattily mentions that she`s from Russia, gives her e-mail address and cell phone number (but not her home number) and doesn`t mention anywhere that she`s married. Putting two and two together (and knowing the lady well ) ..............

What does the fella deserve ? Well. At the end of the day, when a Russian woman gets to the West, her nationality becomes less and less important as she learns to live and survive here. So with any couple, nationality eventually becomes an unimportant factor - the girls become acclimatised to the US / UK / Holland / Germany or wherever and then reality takes over and a couple consisting of "man hit with ugly stick" and "stunning exotic beauty" are not going very far. Reality catches up with everyone.

What does she deserve ? Well, if she`s going to marry a curmudgeon she probably DOES deserve a ticket to the West for heroic sacrifice. ;-)))))))) Hope she`s clever enough to survive up until the divorce. She probably is. Life in Russia is about surviving. There are not many naieve people about.

If he`s going to delude himself into thinking he can get someone like that then he deserves a short, sharp shock when she does arrive and the "ooty poo" (sorry Vega) impression wears off. Which will be one tenth of a second after she doesn`t need to use it any more. And he`ll then probably deserve the divorce.

Marriage is a match, not a mismatch. A lot of the girls on the dating sites are there to get a better life for themselves- they come with an agenda. Very ambitious girls who`ll sieze every opportunity - however small - to get on in life. And that ambition doesn`t stop when they get to the UK / US. Some of the girls are honestly there to find love, security and a caring friend, lover and father..... but a lot aren`t, and any girl who is utterly gorgeous and seems to want to marry a man with a face like a blind cobblers` thumb probably has extremely questionable motives. Agree ???

Other side of the coin is that whilst there are some really bad Russian girls out there, there are also some really bad Western men, too. This one just appears deluded, but I`ve seen some pretty horrendous behaviour from some men towards Russian women. I`d honestly never go within a million miles of a dating site nowadays. You can not possibly get to know someone properly without meeting them, living with them for a long time and getting to know them for REAL first. And the visa system makes that an impossibility in most cases.

Well Dave, a lot to plow through there but it would seem that you're saying that 'not pretty' people do not deserve good looking girlfriends. Further more it would seem that you're saying that if they dare to think that they can have a pretty girlfriend then something bad WILL happen to them and they deserve it because they dared to dream of such a thing.
Please correct me if I have misunderstood your answer and I hope I have because I usually find your post rather insightful and UNpredjudiced.