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View Full Version : UK / USA visa chaos coming soon !!



Random
08-01-2004, 16:54
New passports issued after 26 October must hold "biometric" data such as digital images or fingerprints - or a visa will be needed.

The UK authorities will not be able to issue such passports before mid-2005.

British travellers holding a "machine-readable" passport - issued in Britain since November 1991 - can still travel to the US without a visa for the 10-year lifetime of their document.

They will then have their fingerprints and photographs taken on arrival in the US.

But those who get a new passport after October 26, but before biometric ones are available, will have to purchase a visa at a cost of 67.

More than four million Britons a year travel to the US, and hundreds of thousands of them would be affected by the arrangements as they currently stand.

Braders
08-01-2004, 16:55
Yeap just saw it on SKY news, i am sure the UK will hurry along their updated Passports and do a 'tit for tat' with the US.

They also mentioned that UK Passports issued abroad could be non-machine readable in some circumstances.

It's a great idea in the fight against crime, are they scanning US citizens as well?, if they are criminals who leave a fingerprint at a crime scene are well and truly fxxked ;)

geofizz56
08-01-2004, 17:20
Right now the fingerprint/photograph deal is only for visitors who are required to have a visa. However, it does not yet apply to land crossings, which are a huge percentage of the total. I think even some seaports are not yet up and running with the new procedures - it's mostly aimed at airports.

I heard the US has nearly 500 million border crossings per year. Not to mention the illegals sneaking in. That's an amazing number.

ivanhoe
08-01-2004, 21:10
It's funny how media just picked up on the "fingerprinting" issues. My beloved Economist talked about all these issues way back in early December (see link: http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=2246191)

legspreader
09-01-2004, 10:47
im a yank and i dont know for a fact as my passport was issued pre 9/11 but i know my passport is machine readable but i also think that all new passports have the imbedded information. case in point us embassy here can issue only a tempory passport here now for a permanant they need to send off to the us. from what i understand they've already caught a few crimminals using the systems people traveling with fake passports that forgot they had their figerprints on file ;)

Random
09-01-2004, 11:13
Cool so you catch a few more criminals. :D My point is if you are a British or for that matter Australian etc passport holder and your passport expires after October 26th and before the biometric are issued in 2005, you will need to go to the USA Embassy in the UK and get yourself a visa which cost's about $100, you will be interviewed and fingerprinted. I have per say nothing against this as a law abiding person. However it will cause chaos for tourist's ie why go to the hassle of going to London to get a visa when I can go elsewhere with out hassle. As a business person it adds time and hassle to a trip if I need to go and sort out my visa. How many of us have stood outside the Russian Embassy and moaned about that ! My post was designed to alert people who will be trapped by this and so they will have time to react to it.

legspreader
09-01-2004, 11:35
Originally posted by Random
Cool so you catch a few more criminals. :D My point is if you are a British or for that matter Australian etc passport holder and your passport expires after October 26th and before the biometric are issued in 2005, you will need to go to the USA Embassy in the UK and get yourself a visa which cost's about $100, you will be interviewed and fingerprinted. I have per say nothing against this as a law abiding person. However it will cause chaos for tourist's ie why go to the hassle of going to London to get a visa when I can go elsewhere with out hassle. As a business person it adds time and hassle to a trip if I need to go and sort out my visa. How many of us have stood outside the Russian Embassy and moaned about that ! My post was designed to alert people who will be trapped by this and so they will have time to react to it.

I agree that sucks but this really sucks but what can you do...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=589&ncid=734&e=1&u=/ap/20040109/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/brazil_us_fingerprinting

Random
09-01-2004, 12:10
Love this part in that Yahoo story "Few Americans will wait more than an hour to complete formalities, immigration officials said .... "

legspreader
11-01-2004, 19:58
Originally posted by DaveUKagain
Usually takes about 5 weeks for Americans to get issued passports, I seem to recall.

Lot of my business clients were American, and I was astonished at how few actually HAD passports. I heard a figure that only 7% of US citizens had ever travelled outside the US......

true and true sad thing is most americans live and die within 50 miles of where they are born. and the reality is the two closest countrys canada and mexico you dont need a passport. also you can travel from anyone point in europe to another faster than you can travel from los angeles to new york.

earl
12-01-2004, 05:21
Originally posted by DaveUKagain
Usually takes about 5 weeks for Americans to get issued passports, I seem to recall.

Lot of my business clients were American, and I was astonished at how few actually HAD passports. I heard a figure that only 7% of US citizens had ever travelled outside the US......

In large part because we don't need passports to travel to Mexico and Canada, many people don't get them.

Edit: oops, I didn't read Trampler's post first. Did anyone read the entire article though? This idiot stuck out:


Silva issued his ruling with some tough-sounding rhetoric, calling the U.S. program "absolutely brutal, threatening to human rights, violating human dignity, xenophobic and worthy of the worst horrors committed by the Nazis."
I can grant that some may find it annoying to be fingerprinted and photographed when entering a foreign land, but brutal and threatening to dignity? And as for speaking of the Nazis, remind me -- which country went out of their way to harbor war criminals? Angel of Death indeed...

-earl-

vaska
12-01-2004, 13:35
I am a US citizen and I've just read that Brazil will be photographing and fingerprinting US citizens on arrival. I can't complain because this is what the US is doing to Brazilians, but let me tell you, I won't be going to Brazil anytime soon. I am not a criminal and don't want to be treated like one. I suspect this is a sentiment shared by a lot of people that the US is humiliating in this manner and they won't be going to the US anytime soon.

I think it's disgusting and disgraceful to treat everyone like a potential criminal based on where they are from (hey, i thought we don't discriminate in the US on the basis of national origin, right?). Frankly, I think the measures that have been put in place do nothing but get the rest of the world pissed off at us - where there is a will there is a way and if someone really wants to get into the US to do damage they will do so regardless of how many people we photograph and fingerprint.

legspreader
12-01-2004, 14:05
true but the reality is if you have nothing to fear the 10 sec it takes to get your photo and finger prints taken is a small price. i personally would have no problem with this system if traveling to any country. the countries excluded are the same countires that have visa free travel to the us. brazil is not one of those countries so they are asking to be raised to a dimplomatic level higher than the currently occuppys which i see no merit in doing. fine they can resiperacate and finger print us upon entry but if they are use the same standards we apply to them currently brazilian dipolatic staff are exempt while us diplomat staff are not. our process 10 to 15 secs theirs an hour plus to over nine hours using ink pads and standard cameras and using these medthods the records will be almost useless due to difficulty of access and reference. countrys exempted under the us plan under 30 countries exempted in the brazilian plan everyone but americans. in terms of economics its moranic on their part they have much more to lose economically due to this procedure than the us does. i reiterate i fully agree they have the right to do what they are doing but also say they are fool hardy for doing so. as you had said were there is will there is a way well now its going to be much more difficult to enter the us with a false passport and they already caught several crimmals trying to enter the us on the first day of the program. many countries passports are much easier to forge than a standard drivers licensse in the us.

vaska
12-01-2004, 15:00
I would bet anything that the only people that the new system will ferret out are illegal immigrants coming to the US with forged documents to try to have a better life. Sophisticated terrorists would simply try to sneak in on passports from countries that do not need a visa, or, even if they get photographed/fingerprinted, that would be fine with them, as they are likely to die in whatever act they perpetrate anyway (the September 11 hijackers come to mind here). All the new system does is unnecessarily humiliate people. Whatever happened to the presumption of innocence - I guess it's the other way now...

legspreader
12-01-2004, 15:46
Originally posted by vaska
I would bet anything that the only people that the new system will ferret out are illegal immigrants coming to the US with forged documents to try to have a better life. Sophisticated terrorists would simply try to sneak in on passports from countries that do not need a visa, or, even if they get photographed/fingerprinted, that would be fine with them, as they are likely to die in whatever act they perpetrate anyway (the September 11 hijackers come to mind here). All the new system does is unnecessarily humiliate people. Whatever happened to the presumption of innocence - I guess it's the other way now...

You are overally sensitive i would not feel humilated doing this one. two in just aboutg any country in the world crimminals can buy fake domuments that can withstand immagrations inspections at most points of entry though out the world a bit more difficult to change your fingerprints though. as you say if you want to get in you can get in but why make it easy for them. If I were to speak to the right people I could probally have a russian passport in a week or so for a couple grand. this passport would most likely hold up in most destinations in the world. this same senerio can be repeated around the world. my opinion is if you're afraid to have your finger prints and photo taken what do you have to hide. hell i had to submit to a full set a live scan finger printing to get a professional lic. in the states. should i feel offended i was made to do this? i think not. it is a precaution to head off abuse and fraud within the system...

vaska
12-01-2004, 16:02
Maybe i am overly sensitive although that's debatable when it comes to being treated as a potential criminal. I have nothing to hide - as a naturalized US citizen i already have my fingerprints on file somewhere. And photographs and fingerprints are not foolproof. You can change your appearance and fingerprints are only valid for a certain period of time. As a matter of fact, it took the INS almost two years to process my citizenship application back in the early 90's and they returned it to me once saying my fingerprints expired and I had to have them redone.

I suppose I bitch about this so much because I really don't agree with a lot of what is being done in the "land of the free" in the name of security. I wonder if anyone ever bothered to point out that you can translate the Department of Homeland Security is as the KGB.

legspreader
12-01-2004, 16:11
Originally posted by vaska
Maybe i am overly sensitive although that's debatable when it comes to being treated as a potential criminal. I have nothing to hide - as a naturalized US citizen i already have my fingerprints on file somewhere. And photographs and fingerprints are not foolproof. You can change your appearance and fingerprints are only valid for a certain period of time. As a matter of fact, it took the INS almost two years to process my citizenship application back in the early 90's and they returned it to me once saying my fingerprints expired and I had to have them redone.

I suppose I bitch about this so much because I really don't agree with a lot of what is being done in the "land of the free" in the name of security. I wonder if anyone ever bothered to point out that you can translate the Department of Homeland Security is as the KGB.

true you can change your appearance. but acutally finger prints are like your own perpetual snowflakes, because each one is unique and you have the same ones your entire life. so the bit about them only being valid for a certain amount of time is a beuracratic bs because your finger prints dont change. i have lived in the us since all things changes so i havent seen first hand. i've read a lot of what they've done and dont necesarily agree with it but i think most people would think you daft if you honestly tried to compare the kgb and homeland security...

vaska
12-01-2004, 16:21
"i think most people would think you daft if you honestly tried to compare the kgb and homeland security..."

You are probably right on that one, and if i were to say that we are headed in that direction, most people will think me paranoid. However, tell that to some poor Pakistani truck driver who has been held in jail incommunicado for almost a year or some other stories you hear...In short, I just don't like the concept of all foreigners being suspect.

legspreader
12-01-2004, 16:26
Originally posted by vaska
"i think most people would think you daft if you honestly tried to compare the kgb and homeland security..."

You are probably right on that one, and if i were to say that we are headed in that direction, most people will think me paranoid. However, tell that to some poor Pakistani truck driver who has been held in jail incommunicado for almost a year or some other stories you hear...In short, I just don't like the concept of all foreigners being suspect.

true but many of them have put themselves in these positions by entering or staying in the country illegally. two wrongs don't make a right but on that same note they are not blameless innocents in this senario either.

vaska
12-01-2004, 16:38
"true but many of them have put themselves in these positions by entering or staying in the country illegally. two wrongs don't make a right but on that same note they are not blameless innocents in this senario either."

That's fair enough and I know people disagree on this one, but I don't blame anyone for trying to obtain a better life for themselves and their family. Granted, I would not agree with trying to do that through murder or theft, but coming to another country and workign hard is, for me, perfectly acceptable. My family was fortunate enough to immigrate to the US legally, but over the years I have met many people who were not as lucky, and the absolute majority of them were decent and hardworking individuals. Yes, I know we cannot take in all of the world's poor and downtrodden, but I can't really blame people for trying.

legspreader
12-01-2004, 16:53
true but where do you draw the line the us allows in x number of foriegneers legally each year they cant open the boarders to everyone in the world that would want to live there. part of being a hard working imigrant is also obeying laws. on that same note i think thats one of the reasons you can't even choose where you want to live in russia yet you still need registration and proof of residency because even more people would flood into moscow and st petersburg both legal russian nationals and migrant illegal workers....

vaska
12-01-2004, 18:14
Agreed, but we are not discussing Russia or any other country here. We are talking about the US. A lot of other countries have immigration/migration laws/policies that are far more restrictive. At the same time, when we claim to be a democracy where everyone has equal rights, an immigrant, legal or illegal should not be treated by the homeland security sentinels as a terrorist in the making just because they have an accent, darker skin, wear a turban etc.

legspreader
12-01-2004, 18:20
ok fair enough but should we go back to the system we had before 9\11 where those terrists were able to manipulate and abuse the systems in place to carry out their attacks. even with these new restrictions on freedoms the us is still one of the most open democracies in the world with some of the greatest freedoms...

vaska
12-01-2004, 18:42
Hey, don't go on the defensive, i agree with everything you say. I don't have the solution, unfortunately...i just think that the "solutions" that have been put in place don't really work, just make a lot of decent people's lives miserable and are not going to stop the real fanatics. Just venting out my frustrations with the system...

psiems
12-01-2004, 18:56
You must hate it when Militsia stop you on the street for no reason and treat you like a criminal for a few rubles then!

legspreader
12-01-2004, 19:01
Originally posted by psiems
You must hate it when Militsia stop you on the street for no reason and treat you like a criminal for a few rubles then!

true i glady trade my reallity with the militsia here for the abuses in the good old us of a

vaska
12-01-2004, 19:14
I hate to say it but I haven't been stopped by the militisia once in a year and a half here (and at least you can pay them off and get rid of them). And, the sensitive soul that I am, I expect the militisia to be a**holes. On the other hand, i lost my social security card last year and had to get a new one, and, after being a US citizen for over a decade, lo and behold, it comes back with an "allowed to work only with INS authorization" legend on it. I had to call my representative's office and bitch in order to straighten them out. Its the fact that you expect better in the US but often get the same bs that really annoys me.

Mind you, I certainly do not think Russia is the greatest place the way it treats its citizens. In fact, I think Russia's biggest problem is lack of accountability and the fact that the little people count for s***- the militsia and other thugs terrorise people because they know they can get away with it

legspreader
12-01-2004, 19:25
get off it already you are a walking contradiction complaining about the US dismissing comparisons to other places. ok you can buy your way out of situation. it was explained to me when i first arrived you have absolute freedoms but your rights only go as far as how much money power and connections you have. the us you have limited freedoms but the average person has great protection for their personal freedoms. you are bitching about a problem with losing your ss card. well how about the nightmare that one has to go through to register that they live in apartment now for us foriengers every six months now. the reason why its so difficult to get a replacement social security card is the massive identity theft going on in the us right now. it is one of the fastest growing crimes in the us. you should be happy they dont roll over and give it to you right away. its better than the alternative of finding out in a couple of years someone obtained your ss number took recieved mult credit cards purchased cars on credit ect ect with your info. now thats a nightmare and it happened to a friend of mine lucky the people got caught before it went too far.

vaska
12-01-2004, 19:49
oh whatever - everybody is entitiled to an opinion - you seem to forget that i have said every time that whatever comparison i made the US comes out on top. In my book, being expected to be treated decently and being splapped in the face as often happens in the US is much harder to take than being treated like s*** when you expect it. You are free to disagree, I respect your opinion, but respect mine as well.

I've lived all over the world and the fact is, when you are a guest in a country, you have to obey the local laws, no matter how stupid, f***** up or discriminatory you think they are. I suppose you will point out that the same is true for those that come to the US, so I'll save you the trouble, that is certainly true. Citizens of a country, however, have the right and the privilege to complain about the laws and policies their government is putting in place and to do something to change them, which I'll certainly try to do when I vote this November.

And just to point out that you didn't understand my point, it's not that the ss administration was not willing to give me another card - it just means that the information they had on me was more than 10 years out of date, when I notified them of my change of citizenship status the week it changed. What they had done had nothing to do with trying to protect me, but everything to do with incompetence.

I've enjoyed this discussion, but have to go do some work for a change.
Vaska :D

psiems
12-01-2004, 20:06
I bet you could even bribe some of the fingerprinting agents if you really tried hard enough and had enough money to get away with it.

vaska
12-01-2004, 20:10
That i actually disagree with, at least in the US - they are paid well enough not to have to take bribes - something Russia really should consider.

psiems
12-01-2004, 20:12
Try it on some of our bro's in the ATL!

earl
13-01-2004, 03:32
Originally posted by vaska
On the other hand, i lost my social security card last year and had to get a new one, and, after being a US citizen for over a decade, lo and behold, it comes back with an "allowed to work only with INS authorization" legend on it. I had to call my representative's office and bitch in order to straighten them out. Its the fact that you expect better in the US but often get the same bs that really annoys me.

So basically you are equating a bureaucratic screwup with intentional and illegal harassment to extort money from you by the police? I can *totally* see the how those are the same.

-earl-

earl
13-01-2004, 03:36
Originally posted by vaska
I think it's disgusting and disgraceful to treat everyone like a potential criminal based on where they are from (hey, i thought we don't discriminate in the US on the basis of national origin, right?). Frankly, I think the measures that have been put in place do nothing but get the rest of the world pissed off at us - where there is a will there is a way and if someone really wants to get into the US to do damage they will do so regardless of how many people we photograph and fingerprint.

Sorry, but that's just stupid. Verifying that the holder of a passport is the person that it was issued to is nothing but good policy -- and that's what the fingerprint scanner does. Obviously, in many countries it is pretty trivial to buy a passport; this offers some level of protection against that sort of fraud.

-earl-

sfjohns67
13-01-2004, 08:57
Originally posted by vaska
Citizens of a country, however, have the right and the privilege to complain about the laws and policies their government is putting in place and to do something to change them, which I'll certainly try to do when I vote this November.

HELL YEAH - that's what I'm talkin' 'bout, yo!!! Vaska, please accept my congratulations and compliments - you are a true American! Your comment above represents what I believe is still truly good about our country. I don't necessarily agree with some of the things you've written in this thread, but I sure as hell respect your opinion and YOUR RIGHT TO EXRESS IT, especially in such an important manner as voting. As far as I'm concerned, any US citizen who doesn't vote has zero credibility in a discussion like this one.

Good on ya, babe!

legspreader
13-01-2004, 09:58
Originally posted by sfjohns67
HELL YEAH - that's what I'm talkin' 'bout, yo!!! Vaska, please accept my congratulations and compliments - you are a true American! Your comment above represents what I believe is still truly good about our country. I don't necessarily agree with some of the things you've written in this thread, but I sure as hell respect your opinion and YOUR RIGHT TO EXRESS IT, especially in such an important manner as voting. As far as I'm concerned, any US citizen who doesn't vote has zero credibility in a discussion like this one.

Good on ya, babe!

Thats funny considering shes from russia were press freedom and freedom of speech or regulary stiffled, and many of the rights she now takes for granted are only a dream for the majority of the world.

sfjohns67
13-01-2004, 10:05
What's so funny about it? She stated elsewhere she is a naturalized US citizen - who cares where she's from?

legspreader
13-01-2004, 10:19
Fair enough just I've lived in very immigrant heavy areas and its been my experience that in many many cases said immagrants bitch and complain and want more more more and expect more than say someone born in the us. they have such high expectactions of what armerica is and should be that the reality of it can never live up to what they expect.

sfjohns67
13-01-2004, 10:39
Originally posted by legspreader
...immagrants bitch and complain and want more more more and expect more than say someone born in the us. they have such high expectactions of what armerica is and should be...
Precisely, and that's the way it SHOULD be! Thank you for restating my point - for these immigrants, the original American dream has not died, as opposed to the overwhelming majority of the rest of our horribly complacent population e.g. "What difference is my little vote going to make?"

I'll take these "bitchy immigrants" any day over the uninformed, uninterested, disengaged tv freaks that seems to be more the norm lately.

vaska
13-01-2004, 10:41
Legspreader, i am pissed at myself for taking your bait, but ok here goes - sure, i am from Russia, but have lived in the States since I was twelve, supported myself from the time i was fourteen, put myself through college and Ivy League law school and therefor feel that I damn well deserve to complain about whatever I feel is wrong with the US (yes, I hear people sneering in the background, oh, you immigrants are so successful!). Too many people do not see beyond what's in their beer glass or the results of the latest football game to stand up and do something when things go wrong. They are far too complacend because they take too much for granted.

And you are right, what we have in the US is still a dream for the majority of the world. That is all the more reason to stand up and try to protect what we have when these freedoms are being threatened as opposed to just complacently go along with whatever our government comes up with.

earl
13-01-2004, 10:48
Except the point is, none of your complaints were in any way reasonable. Since you didn't bother to respond, I asked how can you equate bureaucratic incompetence with intentional, illegal harassment by the police -- a body which should be among the most upright and principled in a nation? You also complained about using fingerprint techniques to verify that the bearer of a passport is the individual to whom it was issued -- why then even bother having photographs? American passports are good for 10 years -- people can change in 10 years. Hell, Jarod lost 250 pounds in 2 years IIRC -- meaning the photographs are next to useless as a means of identifying the bearer. Today, we have the technology to do more, so we are.

And as for your complaints about our leaky borders, that's being addressed. The same fingerprinting techniques will debut at all the entrances on the southern border sometime next year, IIRC, and Bush seems to want to step up enforcement of the southern border in general.

-earl-

earl
13-01-2004, 10:52
Originally posted by vaska
(yes, I hear people sneering in the background, oh, you immigrants are so successful!).
Who, exactly, was sneering about your successes in life?

Although you are a lawyer... (j/k)

-earl-

vaska
13-01-2004, 10:59
I just find it really interesting that there are always those who, rather than using logic to refute arguments, choose to respond with a personal attack - would a response have been different if I never said I was an immigrant?

I take your point earl, the two concepts are not the same. But in an environment we live in now, the same sort of a bureacratic screwup can screw someone's life up for good. I have never said and will never say that Russia is a model of democracy - it certainly is not, and it has lightyears to go to get to where the US is now. To me personally, it is just not worth it to treat everyone like a potential criminal to ferret out the few who are true criminals - ever heard the expression that ends with "and then they came for me and there was noone left to speak"?

legspreader
13-01-2004, 11:00
Originally posted by sfjohns67
Precisely, and that's the way it SHOULD be! Thank you for restating my point - for these immigrants, the original American dream has not died, as opposed to the overwhelming majority of the rest of our horribly complacent population e.g. "What difference is my little vote going to make?"

I'll take these "bitchy immigrants" any day over the uninformed, uninterested, disengaged tv freaks that seems to be more the norm lately.

Not the kind of immigrants i'm talking about by no means do i lump vaska or all immirgrants in this catigory. but many of the immirgrants i was refiring fall into that uninformed, uninterested, disengaged tv freaks that seems to be more the norm lately. they sit back don't try to intagrate into society steal from the government when ever possible then bitch they are getting enough from the american dream and how terrible the government is if you dont believe me live in los angeles for awhile...

earl
13-01-2004, 11:09
Originally posted by vaska
To me personally, it is just not worth it to treat everyone like a potential criminal to ferret out the few who are true criminals - ever heard the expression that ends with "and then they came for me and there was noone left to speak"?
Yes, I know the expression. But here's the point: there are valid things you could be complaining about -- the ability of the FBI to now investigate your financial matters sans warrant as long as they certify to a judge (who has no authority to deny their notification) that the investigation is related to terrorism or national security, the reporting requirements that have been in place for financial transactions for a decade, the new Patriot ACT, etc. Instead, you choose to focus on the fact that we now have the technology to verify that the bearer of a passport is the person to whom it was issued. Explain, which rights are you losing here? And in case you hadn't noticed, there is a clear need to know and control who is in the country to prevent a repeat of 9/11.

And look, I know bureaucratic screwups can mess peoples' lives up. But the point is that it's an accident -- you aren't singled out for harassment, you aren't harassed for money or anything else. It's just an example of shit happens, and sometimes the dice roll your name. When my father passed away, somehow registration of the death certificate got screwed up. Then, when my mother tried to have the bank accounts transferred to her name only, this triggered a fraud alert and my mother was locked out of the family bank acounts, checking, savings, credit card -- the works. She had like $200 in cash in the house and it took almost 2 weeks to convince these morons that my father was actually dead... I came close to punching one particularly snotty ass that was less than polite to my mother, particularly considering the circumstances. But again, bureaucratic incompetence is just a fact of life.

-earl-

legspreader
13-01-2004, 11:16
Originally posted by vaska
Legspreader, i am pissed at myself for taking your bait, but ok here goes - sure, i am from Russia, but have lived in the States since I was twelve, supported myself from the time i was fourteen, put myself through college and Ivy League law school and therefor feel that I damn well deserve to complain about whatever I feel is wrong with the US (yes, I hear people sneering in the background, oh, you immigrants are so successful!). Too many people do not see beyond what's in their beer glass or the results of the latest football game to stand up and do something when things go wrong. They are far too complacend because they take too much for granted.

And you are right, what we have in the US is still a dream for the majority of the world. That is all the more reason to stand up and try to protect what we have when these freedoms are being threatened as opposed to just complacently go along with whatever our government comes up with.

Wasn't trying to bait you. I commend and have great respect for people such as yourself. as for your right to complain yes you also have that right one of the great things about america and no snickers from me. many of the things your talking about including the buerocracy waiste lack of accountability in government were motivating factors for why i left the us. as for standing up to protect these rights i agree but on that same note some times you have to cut off the hand to save the arm.

sfjohns67
13-01-2004, 11:20
Originally posted by legspreader
if you dont believe me live in los angeles for awhile...
Dude, I grew up in Central Florida and went to school with the children of migrant farm workers, and I don't remember ANY of them taking any handouts. All they and their parents wanted to do was work and get an education. The kids went to school during the day, and after school let out they joined their parents in the orange groves and picked until the sun went down. Working illegally, I might add, since child labor laws apply to immigrants as well.

Sorry your experience in LA has you so soured on foreign-born Americans. I still think it quite unfair of you to make a blanket indictment of all immigrants as being welfare-suckers....surely you haven't overlooked all the natural-born Americans doing the same thing?

BTW and for the record - I happen to agree with you and earl. Desperate times - desperate measures, etc.

legspreader
13-01-2004, 11:41
Not totally soured but sadlly armenians give immagrants a bad name and were i lived had the largest armenian population outside of armenia. when i meet an armenian and we talk here in moscow and ask me where im from, oh los angeles do you know any armenians, then i say im from glendale. they laugh all of them have friends or family there. I've always said some of the best and worst people i've met in my life are armenian. but after being jumped by 30 of them for no real reason for the 3rd or 4th time you start to get a bitter taste in your mouth especially when they start cursing you for being in their territory. also sadly they are some of the greatest perpertrotors of fruad in the LA area. ok enough of my tirade. once again i have nothing against immigrants thats what america is a country of immigrants. the only difference is some how been there longer than others....

legspreader
19-01-2004, 12:27
this is exactly why they are using the strict controls at us airports and points of entry.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518&ncid=732&e=6&u=/ap/20040118/ap_on_re_eu/france_radical_network

A person familiar with the case, speaking on condition of anonymity, claimed the network moved in and out of France using passports from the faithful, who declared them lost.

rosieredwood
19-01-2004, 18:11
Originally posted by vaska
Agreed, but we are not discussing Russia or any other country here. We are talking about the US. A lot of other countries have immigration/migration laws/policies that are far more restrictive. At the same time, when we claim to be a democracy where everyone has equal rights, an immigrant, legal or illegal should not be treated by the homeland security sentinels as a terrorist in the making just because they have an accent, darker skin, wear a turban etc.

You are completely, thoroughly, pathetically, and utterly NAIVE.

vaska
19-01-2004, 18:36
Whatever. You obviously didn't read the whole thread. I know perfectly well how immigrants are treated in real life - I am one. Don't have to like it or agree with it, though.

vaska
19-01-2004, 18:43
"A person familiar with the case, speaking on condition of anonymity, claimed the network moved in and out of France using passports from the faithful, who declared them lost."

And how would the new security measures help? If you are French they won't apply to you...

legspreader
19-01-2004, 18:49
Originally posted by vaska
"A person familiar with the case, speaking on condition of anonymity, claimed the network moved in and out of France using passports from the faithful, who declared them lost."

And how would the new security measures help? If you are French they won't apply to you...

Ok said lost passports have a real owner and when all of a sudden their are two or different sets a prints assocaited with said passport red flags go up not to mention the person using said borrowed passport might have his information and prints associated with another name...

vaska
19-01-2004, 18:55
But i thought that the fingerprinting requirements did not apply to visa-free countries like France? Am I wrong?

I suppose the lost passport arrangement won't work any longer once the biometric info is encoded into the passports, though (uggh, I really don't like that idea and I have to renew my passport this year, it really feels like an invasion of privacy, but let's not open that can of worms...)

legspreader
19-01-2004, 19:00
true but it if its happening in france probally happening else where two as you had mentioned the new passports limit this problem because said passports would pass a visible inspection but as soon as it would be run through a machine it would come up as a lost passport.

i wanted to point out that if such activities are occuring in france that they are most likely happening as well in just about any country in the world.