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Jas
03-10-2012, 17:28
They slaughtered six million Jews and waded through oceans of blood on an insane mission to conquer Europe and exterminate so called inferior races.

They wiped out whole classes to create a utopia where equality meant subservience to the state. 20 million died.


I think Russians are really offended at the thought of some sort of moral equivelancy between the Soviets and the Nazis.
At university, I recall debating this very point and I argued strongly that the Soviets was morally superior to the Nazis on this basis:

a) Communism was never condemned by the UN- but racism was
b) Stalinism was an eberration of Communism- but Nazi idealogy was central and the Holocaust was inevitable whereas Stalinist repression was not.
c) The Soviet Union attacked no one- whereas Germany was an agressor state in every sense.
d) The Soviets had gulags- but never death camps.
e) Largely, Soviet victims were not blamed by their blood or on accidents of birth- but where part of some rival camp of thought whereas if u were a Jew or a gypsy nothing u cud ever do wud be enough to save ure life
f) History shows that Communism was redeemable and that Russis emerged from it in a way that Europe wud never have emerged from Nazism and by now- entire races wud have been exterminated.

So I think that to mix up Soviets with Nazis is an insult to the Red Army soldiers who survived the Great Patriotic War and liberated Europe as the west's allies and that if we are honest and stuff- this is only really done by extremist right wing groups in places like the Baltic states.

Jas
04-10-2012, 09:09
I feel that in the west nowadays there is a strong political tendency to equate the Soviets with the Nazis. And I also think this leads to a lot of moral issues.

I would definetly like to hear some *informed* debate about that.

antfidel
04-10-2012, 12:09
The answer is western imperialism (specifically your beloved UK)

Jas
04-10-2012, 12:16
The answer is western imperialism (specifically your beloved UK)

What a totally stupid thing to say Anti Infidel. U shud check facts before u speak.

franzewich
04-10-2012, 12:25
You should not compare regimes which are not comparable by means of geo-ethnic and historical background.

Both were totalitarian systems in which intimidation by murder was part of maintaining power, and in such they had similarities. But I think that's where the comparison should end; we should not make a competition in evilness.

Jas
04-10-2012, 12:36
You should not compare regimes which are not comparable by means of geo-ethnic and historical background.

Both were totalitarian systems in which intimidation by murder was part of maintaining power, and in such they had similarities. But I think that's where the comparison should end; we should not make a competition in evilness.

The danger here is that means a Red Army soldier is equal to a member of the SS and that is not the reality.

Benedikt
04-10-2012, 12:56
of being a Nazi or Hitler lover. And express myself.
i think in (numbers) of killings the regime under Stalin was nothing better, if there is such a word, than the Nazis were.
is there a difference if slave labor was used by IG Farben or to construct the V2rockets.or poor slobs were hacking away in the lead mines in Siberia. Chances of surviving were more or less the same
If you understand german watch the film on youtube -soweit die Füße tragen-. About the POW Forel. ) i believe there was also an english language translation version of the film, but i am sure about it.
To me killing is killing. Never mind if you are jewish, an -enemy of the people- , a poor slob in the Jungles of Cambodia. it is just some people who believe their race has suffered more than others and will rub it in for the next 10 000 years.
Not caring about others or at least acknowledging that others had it equally worse, is also racism to me.
I wonder what would have been the outcome of the lets say -Nuremberg trials- if the CCCP would have been also on the losers side and the Gulag henchmen would have been brought to trial, like the Nazis and KZ sadists.
because the CCCP was on the winners side, America did not have much choice to be friendly towards Stalin. At least on face value.
Read the story of -The House on the Embankment- where people had been collected over night, whole families and never been heard of.
Maybe the CCCP did not persecute-kill in the name or for reasons of religious faith but did not kill less.
The great famine in the Ukraine. Were people were more or less starved to death because all grain-livestock-foodstuffs were confiscated bz the Kommisars and left the people with nothing. No seeds to sow and plant, no harvest and nothing to eat.On the order of Stalin.
And Iron Felix, the -founder- of the KGB gets even a honorable mentioning because he got the trains going there. he just threatened to shoot everyone who did not obey orders and work. So,of course they all worked.

NAZIS and Communists under Stalin makes no difference. They all killed. And with lust and vengeance.

Jas
04-10-2012, 13:07
of being a Nazi or Hitler lover. And express myself.
i think in (numbers) of killings the regime under Stalin was nothing better, if there is such a word, than the Nazis were.
is there a difference if slave labor was used by IG Farben or to construct the V2rockets.or poor slobs were hacking away in the lead mines in Siberia. Chances of surviving were more or less the same
If you understand german watch the film on youtube -soweit die Füße tragen-. About the POW Forel. ) i believe there was also an english language translation version of the film, but i am sure about it.
To me killing is killing. Never mind if you are jewish, an -enemy of the people- , a poor slob in the Jungles of Cambodia. it is just some people who believe their race has suffered more than others and will rub it in for the next 10 000 years.
Not caring about others or at least acknowledging that others had it equally worse, is also racism to me.
I wonder what would have been the outcome of the lets say -Nuremberg trials- if the CCCP would have been also on the losers side and the Gulag henchmen would have been brought to trial, like the Nazis and KZ sadists.
because the CCCP was on the winners side, America did not have much choice to be friendly towards Stalin. At least on face value.
Read the story of -The House on the Embankment- where people had been collected over night, whole families and never been heard of.
Maybe the CCCP did not persecute-kill in the name or for reasons of religious faith but did not kill less.
The great famine in the Ukraine. Were people were more or less starved to death because all grain-livestock-foodstuffs were confiscated bz the Kommisars and left the people with nothing. No seeds to sow and plant, no harvest and nothing to eat.On the order of Stalin.
And Iron Felix, the -founder- of the KGB gets even a honorable mentioning because he got the trains going there. he just threatened to shoot everyone who did not obey orders and work. So,of course they all worked.

NAZIS and Communists under Stalin makes no difference. They all killed. And with lust and vengeance.

No one is accusing u of anything and I am happy u wrote the post. But again, u can not compare a Red Army soldier with one fighting for Nazism cos Russian soldiers were fighting in defence- not for Communism- but for the very survival of Russia. Germans was fighting to enslave people- not for their own suvival.
There is no moral equivelancy at all.

Jas
04-10-2012, 13:10
Benedikt, the Holdomor in the Ukraine is a myth. The Holodomor hit the Ukraine no harder than other states in the CCCR and was not even the worst affected: the worst areas was the Volga (including Tatarstan) and Kazakhstan.
This is a myth done by Ukrainian nationalists and many of them have nazi symapthies- like the Banderists.
How do I know this? Cos I studied all of this stuff at university and no exactly what I am talking about here.

Benedikt
04-10-2012, 13:13
[QUOTE=Jas;1068206]No one is accusing u of anything and I am happy u wrote the post.

but this is not the only place i post... and there are others who are just paranoid and hateful.

Jas
04-10-2012, 13:15
[QUOTE=Jas;1068206]No one is accusing u of anything and I am happy u wrote the post.

but this is not the only place i post... and there are others who are just paranoid and hateful.

Ure not saying u like Nazis of course, ure just making an argument that most western authors make all the time. What's to worry about? C, u do have a point, all totalistariamism is bad news- including religious-inpsired stuff which is growing in this century in places like Iran.

Benedikt
04-10-2012, 13:16
Benedikt, the Holdomor in the Ukraine is a myth. The Holodomor hit the Ukraine no harder than other states in the CCCR and was not even the worst affected: the worst areas was the Volga (including Tatarstan) and Kazakhstan.
This is a myth done by Ukrainian nationalists and many of them have nazi symapthies- like the Banderists.
How do I know this? Cos I studied all of this stuff at university and no exactly what I am talking about here.



apologies Jas, it also happened in SARATOV ( where my wive's relatives come from) and in other places of the CCCP. a lapse in expression.

FatAndy
04-10-2012, 14:48
is there a difference if slave labor was used by IG Farben or to construct the V2rockets.or poor slobs were hacking away in the lead mines in Siberia.
Did IG or WvB pay any salary to those ppl who was caught in USSR and deported to 3rd Reich?

MikeyP
04-10-2012, 14:54
Funny, I never even thought of comparing them.. I think its because, regardless of the Soviet actions and actual outcome their intent was to create a world of social justice vs a world of dominated by 'a superior race'

Russian Lad
04-10-2012, 14:59
You should not compare regimes which are not comparable by means of geo-ethnic and historical background.

Both were totalitarian systems in which intimidation by murder was part of maintaining power, and in such they had similarities. But I think that's where the comparison should end; we should not make a competition in evilness.

Yet you preferred to side up with the Soviets as allies during WW-II, not with the nazi. You HAD to compare. Well, if Stalin was as vicious as Hitler, why did you do it?

Benedikt
04-10-2012, 15:10
Did IG or WvB pay any salary to those ppl who was caught in USSR and deported to 3rd Reich?


and neither did Stalin's Gulag.And the people did not go there out of their free will either. while one can and should not (?) compare Auschwitz with the Gulags people got killed here and there.

Russian Lad
04-10-2012, 15:18
should not (?)

Many people came out of gulags alive, such fate was not foreseen for a single person in KZ camps - everyone was to become soap or fertilizer after being processed in gas chambers at the end of their short "career" there. The evil does have shades.

FatAndy
04-10-2012, 15:28
and neither did Stalin's Gulag.
Oh, you have got a lot of experience ;)
All people worked in ITLs (corrective labour camps) in USSR times, were paid. Not so much, but enough to buy some tea, sugar, cigarettes in camp's kiosk (not more than 150 rub at once per month, the rest of money were placed onto special account and given out while person is released from the camp).
Pls read "Kolyma stories" by V. Shalamov and memoirs of L. Razgon.

In Brezhnev times, 196x-198x, working imprisoned person got ~30% of the same labor fee in freedom.

And GULAG was not a collection of camps of death. There was no such task to kill people there. It was usual Soviet ministry, included into production process, with plans, budgets, finances etc - but instead of free workers there were prisoners.

mrzuzzo
04-10-2012, 16:03
Did anyone just compare death camps where the intent was to exterminate as many prisoners as possible to labor camps where the intent was to use cheap labor force as effectively as possible to build something?

If you think that the Soviet gulags were anything like Nazi concentration camps, you're quite ignorant.

franzewich
04-10-2012, 16:44
The danger here is that means a Red Army soldier is equal to a member of the SS and that is not the reality.

Jas, quite honestly (and please do not take this too personal!), I think you are moving on very slippery ground without having the full picture. I know, the danger is big to get caught in clichés; the danger is also big for me to get misunderstood, but let me try to explain something to you:

There were different groups of SS. Of course the holocaust was controlled and organized under the SS of Heinrich Himmler, but the majoriy was "Waffen-SS", an elite troup comparable with any other army. Of course, these soldiers were no saints, the cause they were sent to war was unjust (not their personal fault), and war crimes were committed, like by any other troup in this world. Were there no crimes committed in Vietnam, in Korea, in Afghanistan? That does not mean that every U.S.-GI is a war criminal. Don’t forget: history is always being written by the victors – they did always right and never wrong. I could now go on and report about the fate of Germans, after the war, soldiers and civilians alike, but I think two wrongs don’t make a right.

There was a teenage kid, who happened to be the brother of my ex-wife's grandma. Apparently he was funny, witty, nice, and caring, and well liked. Just like any other kid in Russia, the U.S., GB, wherever. It was the year 1944, and he was sixteen, sportive, tall - and blue eyed. Of course during school sports he finally caught the eye of the "Gauleiter", wo was responsible for filling up the ranks of the many, many German KIAs. That boy did not have a chance, as a healty Arian he was forced to join the "Waffen-SS" - otherwise he and his family would have gotten into real trouble. Of course, I am convinced that he was also proud to belong to an elite troop, maybe he was even a bit “gung-ho”, and I'm sure many girls' eyes got shiny when they saw him in his black uniform. After all, these kids belonged to a brain-washed generation; he was one year old when the Nazis came to power, and he was trained to believe that every other nation was inferior. There was no free press, no free opinion, and any kind of criticizm or wrong question was answered by a firing squad. Just like under Stalin.

He wound up fighting the Russian army outside Vienna. He cought a piece of shrapnell in his belly and died a lonesome and agonizing death.

Now you may call me sentimental, however, I am fully aware that there were unimaginable crimes committed by the Nazis and their SS - but would you call this kid, like hundreds of thousands of others similar to him, a criminal, would you hold him personally responsible for the holocaust? And would you see him so much different than the Russian soldier who killed him?

robertmf
04-10-2012, 16:51
Oh, you have got a lot of experience ;)
All people worked in ITLs (corrective labour camps) in USSR times, were paid. Not so much, but enough to buy some tea, sugar, cigarettes in camp's kiosk (not more than 150 rub at once per month, the rest of money were placed onto special account and given out while person is released from the camp).
Pls read "Kolyma stories" by V. Shalamov and memoirs of L. Razgon.

In Brezhnev times, 196x-198x, working imprisoned person got ~30% of the same labor fee in freedom.

And GULAG was not a collection of camps of death. There was no such task to kill people there. It was usual Soviet ministry, included into production process, with plans, budgets, finances etc - but instead of free workers there were prisoners.

The same in the US where prisoners are employed by industry - and products even sold to the Government :asskiss: This all sotto voce "on the qt" quiet and not advertised well.

Prison labor in the US (http://www.jdjournal.com/2012/03/16/prison-labor-in-us-unicor-the-hidden-face-of-federal-commerce/)

Russian Lad
04-10-2012, 16:56
Now you may call me sentimental, however, I am fully aware that there were unimaginable crimes committed by the Nazis and their SS - but would you call this kid, like hundreds of thousands of others similar to him, a criminal, would you hold him personally responsible for the holocaust? And would you see him so much different than the Russian soldier who killed him?

Well, nobody blames separate people, though they did have their choices to make - some Germans fought against the nazi. As one writer said: "The biggest horror of a war is that good people are killing other good people there."

FatAndy
04-10-2012, 16:56
would you hold him personally responsible for the holocaust?
As he was a child that time - of course no.


And would you see him so much different than the Russian soldier who killed him?
Surely yes. Soviet (was he Russian, or Ukrainian, or other ethnic group) soldier was on the right side, the boy was on the wrong one (either as a volunteer or was forced).

FatAndy
04-10-2012, 17:14
The same in the US where prisoners are employed by industry - and products even sold to the Government :asskiss: This all sotto voce "on the qt" quiet and not advertised well.
Well, you know - it looks quite logic. There is a mass of people who may work, why should they just lie down on the bed in the prison and spit into ceiling, when the society feeds them, supplies pants, socks, boots, cigarettes, cleans their $h!t and has nothing back?

franzewich
04-10-2012, 17:21
Did anyone just compare death camps where the intent was to exterminate as many prisoners as possible to labor camps where the intent was to use cheap labor force as effectively as possible to build something?

If you think that the Soviet gulags were anything like Nazi concentration camps, you're quite ignorant.

There were death camps in Russia under Stalin, people were simply worked to death, the toll went up to millions; comparable to the killing fields in Cambodia.

The difference is that the Nazis built "extermination factories", where innocent civilians were murdered in on an industrial scale with a horrifying and cold blooded efficiency and "productivity". The Nazis, the majority being bureaucratic Germans, organized and administraded death not much different than organizing a brewery.

Stalin, so it seems, at least had a bit of scrupels and ethics left; Hitler didn't.

FatAndy
04-10-2012, 17:24
, the toll went up to millions; .
500 millions, yeah ;)

franzewich
04-10-2012, 17:29
Surely yes. Soviet (was he Russian, or Ukrainian, or other ethnic group) soldier was on the right side, the boy was on the wrong one (either as a volunteer or was forced).

But he did not have a choice, and I think this must be considered. I would agree with you if he had the chance to say NO and didn't without getting other people in trouble (which is characteristic for totalitarian regimes).

I would not go as far as to say that those who were stuck at the wrong place at the wrong time are all guilty. That, to me, is not the right ethical point of view. "Guilt" means opting by free will for a bad thing while being fully aware of the choice.

Russian Lad
04-10-2012, 17:32
I would not go as far as to say that those who were stuck at the wrong place at the wrong time are all guilty.

That's why USSR ended up sending the German prisoners of war back home, those who survived the gulag system, and there were quite many of them. I don't think anyone here blames common soldiers.

robertmf
04-10-2012, 17:33
Well, you know - it looks quite logic. There is a mass of people who may work, why should they just lie down on the bed in the prison and spit into ceiling, when the society feeds them, supplies pants, socks, boots, cigarettes, cleans their $h!t and has nothing back?

The problem is with the risk & rewards of the capitalist profit motive. "A level playing field" == The British sense of fair play.

For example, a prisoner may sew a shirt for $1 while a free company must pay an employee $4 to sew the same shirt. The kicker is, both companies will charge the department store the same $12 for shirt !! The company using prisoners gets more $$$$ :bong:

The same reasoning follows for tariffs on tyres|tires made in China and sold in the US. Chinese do not pay well.

franzewich
04-10-2012, 17:34
500 millions, yeah ;)

I think these figures are too high - today's population of Russa is 1/3 of this!? Exaggerating does not help, it will only pour oil on the fire of the notorious doubters.

robertmf
04-10-2012, 17:36
That's why USSR ended up sending the German prisoners of war back home, those who survived the gulag system, and there were quite many of them. I don't think anyone here blames common soldiers.

Conversely, didn't moustaches tend to shoot any repatriated USSR soldiers :question:

robertmf
04-10-2012, 17:43
I think these figures are too high - today's population of Russa is 1/3 of this!? Exaggerating does not help, it will only pour oil on the fire of the notorious doubters.

Holocaust Victims and death toll

Victims Killed
Jews 5.9 million
Soviet POWs 2–3 million
Ethnic Poles 1.8–2 million
Romani 220,000–1,500,000
Disabled 200,000–250,000
Freemasons 80,000
Slovenes 20,000–25,000
Homosexuals 5,000–15,000
Jehovah's
Witnesses 2,500–5,000

The number of victims depends on which definition of "the Holocaust" is used. Donald Niewyk and Francis Nicosia write in The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust that the term is commonly defined as the mass murder of more than 5 million European Jews. They further state that 'Not everyone finds this a fully satisfactory definition.'[8] According to Martin Gilbert the total number of victims is just under six million—around 78 percent of the 7.3 million Jews in occupied Europe at the time.[261]

Broader definitions include approximately 2 to 3 million Soviet POWs, 2 million ethnic Poles, up to 1,500,000 Romani, 200,000 handicapped, political and religious dissenters, 15,000 homosexuals and 5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses, bringing the death toll to around 11 million. The broadest definition would include 6 million Soviet civilians, raising the death toll to 17 million.[8] R.J. Rummel estimates the total democide death toll of Nazi Germany to be 21 million. Other estimates put total casualties of Soviet Union's citizens alone to about 26 million.[262]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

FatAndy
04-10-2012, 17:57
a prisoner may sew a shirt for $1 while a free company must pay an employee $4 to sew the same shirt. .
The rest of the sum - $3 - is what is described above - food, pants, boots for prisoner. Plus-minus, of course.


Conversely, didn't moustaches tend to shoot any repatriated USSR soldiers :question:
Those who was collaborating and involved into Nazi crimes - of course. But not all, those who just collaborated, received free voucher to Siberian woodhacker brigades for several years. Yes, not very democratic, but fair.

Benedikt
04-10-2012, 18:42
Conversely, didn't moustaches tend to shoot any repatriated USSR soldiers :question:



Geschichte Osttirols – Wikipedia

go down to -Osttirol in den ersten Nachkriegsjahren- and read the story about the 25 000 Cossacks.
apparently the river Drau was flowing red from all the blood for days and days on end. The Cossacks would first kill their wives and children, than the men killed each other. better that than going back to the -rodina-
we never learned that in school. the first time i heard about it was when i was already here in Russia.
while this is away from the Nazis and CCCP, it is a small stone in history that is conveniently forgotten and not spoken about.

robertmf
04-10-2012, 18:54
a prisoner may sew a shirt for $1 while a free company must pay an employee $4 to sew the same shirt.


The rest of the sum - $3 - is what is described above - food, pants, boots for prisoner. Plus-minus, of course.


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh NO! That $3 for the prisoner food, pants, boots is paid for by the taxes paid by the employee out of his $4 :bong: The prison work company gets the $3.

Понял :question: It is important concept :)

robertmf
04-10-2012, 19:26
Geschichte Osttirols – Wikipedia (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschichte_Osttirols)




The Red Danube (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041788/plotsummary) (1949)

The Red Danube (1949) - IMDb

FatAndy
04-10-2012, 19:31
apparently the river Drau was flowing red from all the blood for days and days on end. The Cossacks would first kill their wives and children, than the men killed each other. better that than going back to the -rodina-
Ouch, what an expression! :)

Group of their higher officers, including A. Shkuro, P. Krasnov, Sultan-Girey Klych and H. von Pannwitz, and some lower soldiers, were sued by Military collegion of Supreme Cort of USSR and executed 16th Jan 1947 in Moscow.

Most of them were from 15th cossacks Korps of SS, and were responsible for war crimes againist Yugoslavian non-combatants (1943-1944) and for ther repressions againist Warsaw's rebellion (1944). The rest of cossacks was sent to Siberian special settlements (together with families). In 1955 they were amnested.


we never learned that in school.
Not a big loss.


it is a small stone in history that is conveniently forgotten
...by whom? :suspect:

Jas
04-10-2012, 19:46
Funny, I never even thought of comparing them.. I think its because, regardless of the Soviet actions and actual outcome their intent was to create a world of social justice vs a world of dominated by 'a superior race'

Yes, that's how I feel also. The Soviets wanted to somehow create a better world whereas the Nazis just wanted to wipe out the vast majority of the planet's population. Nazism is intrinsically evil.

Jas
04-10-2012, 19:50
go down to -Osttirol in den ersten Nachkriegsjahren- and read the story about the 25 000 Cossacks.
.

These Cossaks was traitors. I learned about this when I was studying about Russia at university. They was led by General Vlassov who was a traitor to the Soviet Union and the Soviet people. These cossaks were just terrible and I think if u side with ure nations's enemy in a time of such a war- then u can expect to be shot.

mds45
04-10-2012, 20:09
Jas, quite honestly (and please do not take this too personal!), I think you are moving on very slippery ground without having the full picture. I know, the danger is big to get caught in clichés; the danger is also big for me to get misunderstood, but let me try to explain something to you:

There were different groups of SS. Of course the holocaust was controlled and organized under the SS of Heinrich Himmler, but the majoriy was "Waffen-SS", an elite troup comparable with any other army. Of course, these soldiers were no saints, the cause they were sent to war was unjust (not their personal fault), and war crimes were committed, like by any other troup in this world. Were there no crimes committed in Vietnam, in Korea, in Afghanistan? That does not mean that every U.S.-GI is a war criminal. Don’t forget: history is always being written by the victors – they did always right and never wrong. I could now go on and report about the fate of Germans, after the war, soldiers and civilians alike, but I think two wrongs don’t make a right.

There was a teenage kid, who happened to be the brother of my ex-wife's grandma. Apparently he was funny, witty, nice, and caring, and well liked. Just like any other kid in Russia, the U.S., GB, wherever. It was the year 1944, and he was sixteen, sportive, tall - and blue eyed. Of course during school sports he finally caught the eye of the "Gauleiter", wo was responsible for filling up the ranks of the many, many German KIAs. That boy did not have a chance, as a healty Arian he was forced to join the "Waffen-SS" - otherwise he and his family would have gotten into real trouble. Of course, I am convinced that he was also proud to belong to an elite troop, maybe he was even a bit “gung-ho”, and I'm sure many girls' eyes got shiny when they saw him in his black uniform. After all, these kids belonged to a brain-washed generation; he was one year old when the Nazis came to power, and he was trained to believe that every other nation was inferior. There was no free press, no free opinion, and any kind of criticizm or wrong question was answered by a firing squad. Just like under Stalin.

He wound up fighting the Russian army outside Vienna. He cought a piece of shrapnell in his belly and died a lonesome and agonizing death.

Now you may call me sentimental, however, I am fully aware that there were unimaginable crimes committed by the Nazis and their SS - but would you call this kid, like hundreds of thousands of others similar to him, a criminal, would you hold him personally responsible for the holocaust? And would you see him so much different than the Russian soldier who killed him?

I believe within all of us nature has placed an inherent understanding of right and wrong, therefore I would say if this young soldier raped and murdered in cold blood unarmed villagers then he is guilty of war crimes and his age, mental state due to brain washing etc. could be admissible as contributing factors mitigating to some small degree his crimes.

RichardB
04-10-2012, 20:12
Jehovah's
Witnesses 2,500–5,000

For some reason I feel no sympathy for this group.

robertmf
04-10-2012, 20:15
For some reason I feel no sympathy for this group.

I wonder. What was the nazi problem with the Freemasons :question:

Jas
04-10-2012, 20:18
Jas, quite honestly (and please do not take this too personal!), I think you are moving on very slippery ground without having the full picture. I know, the danger is big to get caught in clichés; the danger is also big for me to get misunderstood, but let me try to explain something to you:

There were different groups of SS. Of course the holocaust was controlled and organized under the SS of Heinrich Himmler, but the majoriy was "Waffen-SS", an elite troup comparable with any other army. Of course, these soldiers were no saints, the cause they were sent to war was unjust (not their personal fault), and war crimes were committed, like by any other troup in this world. Were there no crimes committed in Vietnam, in Korea, in Afghanistan? That does not mean that every U.S.-GI is a war criminal. Don’t forget: history is always being written by the victors – they did always right and never wrong. I could now go on and report about the fate of Germans, after the war, soldiers and civilians alike, but I think two wrongs don’t make a right.

There was a teenage kid, who happened to be the brother of my ex-wife's grandma. Apparently he was funny, witty, nice, and caring, and well liked. Just like any other kid in Russia, the U.S., GB, wherever. It was the year 1944, and he was sixteen, sportive, tall - and blue eyed. Of course during school sports he finally caught the eye of the "Gauleiter", wo was responsible for filling up the ranks of the many, many German KIAs. That boy did not have a chance, as a healty Arian he was forced to join the "Waffen-SS" - otherwise he and his family would have gotten into real trouble. Of course, I am convinced that he was also proud to belong to an elite troop, maybe he was even a bit “gung-ho”, and I'm sure many girls' eyes got shiny when they saw him in his black uniform. After all, these kids belonged to a brain-washed generation; he was one year old when the Nazis came to power, and he was trained to believe that every other nation was inferior. There was no free press, no free opinion, and any kind of criticizm or wrong question was answered by a firing squad. Just like under Stalin.

He wound up fighting the Russian army outside Vienna. He cought a piece of shrapnell in his belly and died a lonesome and agonizing death.

Now you may call me sentimental, however, I am fully aware that there were unimaginable crimes committed by the Nazis and their SS - but would you call this kid, like hundreds of thousands of others similar to him, a criminal, would you hold him personally responsible for the holocaust? And would you see him so much different than the Russian soldier who killed him?

Yes I would definetly call him a criminal because he was a member of a criminal organization. U can not compare him to a Soviet soldier in any way because the Soviet soldier was fighting a just war against Nazi tyranny. If u want to compare him to a Soviet soldier on that basis- then why not a British soldier? Clearly this view of moral relativism is morally wrong. That he was part of a brainwashed society I agree with..... but when something is sick and dangerous- and Nazi Germany was both- it must be destroyed totally. I look at it like this... the Soviet soldier was not out to kill anyone cos his beliefs did not demand that whereas the SS soldier was ready to accept- and did accept- that it was justifiable to kill on the basis of his ideaology. Nothing in Soviet idealogy is comparable therefore in terms of evil

RichardB
04-10-2012, 20:18
I wonder. What was the nazi problem with the Freemasons :question:


They couldn't master the dodgy handshake :)

Jas
04-10-2012, 20:23
Nazi ideaology was truly evil cos it was based on killing 97% of the world population. Did the Soviets dream to ever do such a thing? Obviously they didn't and we must remember also that the Soviet victory led to the modern world we know today- so how bad could it have been? It wasn't bad mostly cos most of the issues was down to some evil people attached to the regime- like Beria etc, but this is not the same as Nazism whose aim was all out evil.

Korotky Gennady
04-10-2012, 20:28
Did anyone just compare death camps where the intent was to exterminate as many prisoners as possible to labor camps where the intent was to use cheap labor force as effectively as possible to build something?

If you think that the Soviet gulags were anything like Nazi concentration camps, you're quite ignorant.

I see Mr. Zuzzo. You prefer to stay at the labour camps and work there "as effectively as possible"... :)))

You are not ignorant on this subject.

But I wonder what the right did they have at all to send us to the famous labour cams ?

Who am I for them ?

Slave or something ?

robertmf
04-10-2012, 20:31
Who am I for them ?

Slave or something ?

Toчно :devilish:

Jas
04-10-2012, 20:31
Nazism and the Freemasons? Everyone knows what's the problem with that.
C, thousands of years back, there were philosophers and they had secret knowledge. So they wanted to pass this on to people to keep the world safe. This was when nabi Musa (Moses) was in Egypt. This knowledge came from Egypt (some also from India and from Persia) and the Hebrews was the first to collect this when they was building stuff for faron (dictator of Egypt).
Next?
The Jews escaped Egypt and built the Temple. They used all this secret knowledge and they founded a group to keep carrying this stuff. Next? The Jews got kicked out by Rome. Next? This knowledge got spread all over the world- but it was secret still and kept with builders. Next? U get the Templars trying to put all this together and purify all this knowledge. Next? America gets built and now u start to get these groups calling themselves Freemasons. Next? U get America operating with these groups to keep the world safe and to stop evil winning.
So what's this group then exactly? It's like the movie "Nightwatch," they know there's evil and they are always out to fight it. Last time this evil almost won- this was with the Nazis. So it's like a eternal battle going on for centuries.

Korotky Gennady
04-10-2012, 20:33
What a totally stupid thing to say Anti Infidel. U shud check facts before u speak.

Jas, your governments... personally president Rusvelt and prime-minister Lord Churchill... made a great support to dictator Stalin.

So you are in response for his crimes too.

SV1973a
04-10-2012, 20:36
They slaughtered six million Jews and waded through oceans of blood on an insane mission to conquer Europe and exterminate so called inferior races.

They wiped out whole classes to create a utopia where equality meant subservience to the state. 20 million died.


I think Russians are really offended at the thought of some sort of moral equivelancy between the Soviets and the Nazis.
At university, I recall debating this very point and I argued strongly that the Soviets was morally superior to the Nazis on this basis:

a) Communism was never condemned by the UN- but racism was
b) Stalinism was an eberration of Communism- but Nazi idealogy was central and the Holocaust was inevitable whereas Stalinist repression was not.
c) The Soviet Union attacked no one- whereas Germany was an agressor state in every sense.
d) The Soviets had gulags- but never death camps.
e) Largely, Soviet victims were not blamed by their blood or on accidents of birth- but where part of some rival camp of thought whereas if u were a Jew or a gypsy nothing u cud ever do wud be enough to save ure life
f) History shows that Communism was redeemable and that Russis emerged from it in a way that Europe wud never have emerged from Nazism and by now- entire races wud have been exterminated.

So I think that to mix up Soviets with Nazis is an insult to the Red Army soldiers who survived the Great Patriotic War and liberated Europe as the west's allies and that if we are honest and stuff- this is only really done by extremist right wing groups in places like the Baltic states.

What is this with your obsession with nazis, girl ?
a) of course not. USSR was a member of the UN. Do you think they would condemn themselves.
c) You seem to forget about POLAND? Finland ? Baltic States? Prague?
e) big difference that makes. People were prosecuted because they were the wrong `class`. You don`t get to chose in which class you are born.
I think that on both sides many young lives were wasted, all sacrificed in two horrible totalitarian regimes.
Final point : the nazis definitely had the nicest uniforms. I believe the uniforms came from the Hugo Boss collection of 1938.

SV1973a
04-10-2012, 20:39
These Cossaks was traitors. I learned about this when I was studying about Russia at university. They was led by General Vlassov who was a traitor to the Soviet Union and the Soviet people. These cossaks were just terrible and I think if u side with ure nations's enemy in a time of such a war- then u can expect to be shot.

What do you call those Germans that fought the nazi-regime? `Traitors` as well?

Jas
04-10-2012, 20:39
If I had power..... I wud help freemasons and give them safe refuge and support also.
C, u get stuff like the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," that was mixing up this secret group and trying to use this group as a reason to do bad stuff to them.
Honestly, it's a war between light and darkness; this is what's going on and very few people really understand it and stuff. However, how can it be all nonesense to believe this. It's real. Totally real... u just have to look at Nazism to know that it's totally real and that the freemasons and others linked to them are on standby to save the world from bad stuff. This is why... if Nazis come again to do their stuff- like if they want to kill all Muslims in Europe (like what Neo Nazis are dreaming about)- America will never let that happen.

Jas
04-10-2012, 20:42
Jas, your governments... personally president Rusvelt and prime-minister Lord Churchill... made a great support to dictator Stalin.

So you are in response for his crimes too.

Er, we was supporting the Soviet people cos that was the right thing to do. Right is right and wrong is wrong.
Gennady, seriously, wud u say General Zhukov was a bad person for following Stalin's orders? Of course not. He understood that if Russia was to live- Nazism had to die.

Korotky Gennady
04-10-2012, 20:44
e) big difference that makes. People were prosecuted because they were the wrong `class`. You don`t get to chose in which class you are born.

.
SV, not quite so.

Lenin was a nobleman himself and Stalin studied in the Church's seminary.

What class was you born in... didn't have big meaning already at the begging of 1930s.

RichardB
04-10-2012, 20:44
If I had power..... I wud help freemasons and give them safe refuge and support also.
C, u get stuff like the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," that was mixing up this secret group and trying to use this group as a reason to do bad stuff to them.
Honestly, it's a war between light and darkness; this is what's going on and very few people really understand it and stuff. However, how can it be all nonesense to believe this. It's real. Totally real... u just have to look at Nazism to know that it's totally real and that the freemasons and others linked to them are on standby to save the world from bad stuff. This is why... if Nazis come again to do their stuff- like if they want to kill all Muslims in Europe (like what Neo Nazis are dreaming about)- America will never let that happen.

And Dan Brown is a totally reliable source, to be trusted with the truth...

SV1973a
04-10-2012, 20:45
Er, we was supporting the Soviet people cos that was the right thing to do. Right is right and wrong is wrong.
Gennady, seriously, wud u say General Zhukov was a bad person for following Stalin's orders? Of course not. He understood that if Russia was to live- Nazism had to die.

Of course not. The allies supported the USSR because they had no other choice. The British and French declared war on Hitler when the nazis invaded Poland on 1 September 1939.
However, they did not move when two weeks later the soviets invade Poland from the east?
By the way, you`d be surprised how few Russians actually know that the USSR invaded Poland. Try it out with your Russian friends.

Korotky Gennady
04-10-2012, 20:48
Er, we was supporting the Soviet people cos that was the right thing to do. Right is right and wrong is wrong.
Gennady, seriously, wud u say General Zhukov was a bad person for following Stalin's orders? Of course not. He understood that if Russia was to live- Nazism had to die.

Jas, sorry but I don't like general Zhukov... this Stalin's servant... and if I could, I prefered not to fight under his command.

My grandfather was a KGB officer but even he was saying that Zhukov had been a scary man.

Jas
04-10-2012, 20:50
Of course not. The allies supported the USSR because they had no other choice. The British and French declared war on Hitler when the nazis invaded Poland on 1 September 1939.
However, they did not move when two weeks later the soviets invade Poland from the east?
By the way, you`d be surprised how few Russians actually know that the USSR invaded Poland. Try it out with your Russian friends.

Er, if u studied this at university (like I done) then u wud know the background to all of this. U shud study it thru university modules not just movies etc.
The USSR had no choice but to invade Poland cos it was strategic and Britain and France knew that even. It was a way to placate Hitler- while gaining ground for the Soviet Union. This came after both the betrayal of the Czechs and Britain looking like it was cutting a deal with Hitler- so the Soviet Union was very wise to do what it done. So u got to look at the big picture and that's best done thru proper study.... just sayin'

Jas
04-10-2012, 20:54
Jas, sorry but I don't like general Zhukov... this Stalin's servant... and if I could, I prefered not to fight under his command.

Gennady, do u love the Rodina? Do u want the Russian people to live, to save Europe, to go into space, to become the great country it is today?
Don't get ure history from the internet and stuff cos it's nothing what's on the internet. U shud study it all properly.
If I was in those times..... definetly I wud have been a Red Army girl and I wud have worked in the propaganda department, or a translator, or anything to help Russia (and Britain also). One thing about me, I am totally patriotic for the UK and u shud be also for Russia, Gennady.

SV1973a
04-10-2012, 20:55
Er, if u studied this at university (like I done) then u wud know the background to all of this. U shud study it thru university modules not just movies etc.
The USSR had no choice but to invade Poland cos it was strategic and Britain and France knew that even. It was a way to placate Hitler- while gaining ground for the Soviet Union. This came after both the betrayal of the Czechs and Britain looking like it was cutting a deal with Hitler- so the Soviet Union was very wise to do what it done. So u got to look at the big picture and that's best done thru proper study.... just sayin'

I did study this at university, my dear...
The only background of this is the Molotov-Ribbentrop-pact. Two crooks agree to just an ordinary robbery.
Where did you pick up all these strange ideas you are spreading on this forum?

Korotky Gennady
04-10-2012, 20:57
definetly I wud have been a Red Army girl and I wud have worked in the propaganda department,
.

:D then you could work with my grandfather.

http://school-918.ucoz.ru/_si/0/73400320.jpg

RichardB
04-10-2012, 20:57
Er, if u studied this at university (like I done) then u wud know the background to all of this. U shud study it thru university modules not just movies etc.
The USSR had no choice but to invade Poland cos it was strategic and Britain and France knew that even. It was a way to placate Hitler- while gaining ground for the Soviet Union. This came after both the betrayal of the Czechs and Britain looking like it was cutting a deal with Hitler- so the Soviet Union was very wise to do what it done. So u got to look at the big picture and that's best done thru proper study.... just sayin'

I suggest you relearn your history. If you are going to spout 'facts' without them being 'facts' then you just end up looking like an incompetent.

Soviet invasion of Poland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

just sayin' and stuff

FatAndy
04-10-2012, 21:01
c) You seem to forget about POLAND? Finland ? Baltic States? Prague?

We've started liberation of Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia 17th Sep 1939, when Polish govt already left country. ;)

With Finland not everything is so easy. USSR proposed many times to exchange territories with Finland to move border from Leningrad. Finland has rejected these proposals. Then there were numerous proposals to make demilitarised zone, also rejected. Then one small provocation... and we've moved the border fom Leningrad, finally ;)

Baltic states entered USSR voluntary way... or at least not resisted. At all. Till July 1941.

And in Prague-1968 everything was done right and correct, as same as in Budapest-1956.


e) big difference that makes. People were prosecuted because they were the wrong `class`. You don`t get to chose in which class you are born.
Movement between classes was possible ;)


the nazis definitely had the nicest uniforms. I believe the uniforms came from the Hugo Boss collection of 1938.
Yes, but it haven't helped them much - the war was finished in Berlin, not Moscow.

Jas
04-10-2012, 21:02
I did study this at university, my dear...
The only background of this is the Molotov-Ribbentrop-pact. Two crooks agree to just an ordinary robbery.
Where did you pick up all these strange ideas you are spreading on this forum?

I studied this stuff for years under the best Russian professors and UK academics. It takes years actually. Do u know at one point I wanted to become a history professor myself? When I met Tariq Ali (British Marxist Professor)- he told like this, "I have never met someone so gifted with history and you are a credit to the Pakistani people, Jasmine."
So I know exactly all this stuff thanks.

Jas
04-10-2012, 21:05
Wow, great portrait Gennady!

Korotky Gennady
04-10-2012, 21:09
Gennady, do u love the Rodina?
...One thing about me, I am totally patriotic for the UK and u shud be also for Russia, Gennady.

Hmm... "Rodina'' is the country where it happent to you to be born... This country can be good or bad.

So you shouldn'd fight and die for the bad Rodina.

And many germans weren't obliged to fight for Nazi Germany so many russians had moral right no to fight for Stalin's Russia.

SV1973a
04-10-2012, 21:10
We've started liberation of Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia 17th Sep 1939, when Polish govt already left country. ;)

With Finland not everything is so easy. USSR proposed many times to exchange territories with Finland to move border from Leningrad. Finland has rejected these proposals. Then there were numerous proposals to make demilitarised zone, also rejected. Then one small provocation... and we've moved the border fom Leningrad, finally ;)

Baltic states entered USSR voluntary way... or at least not resisted. At all. Till July 1941.

And in Prague-1968 everything was done right and correct, as same as in Budapest-1956.

That is of course also a good explanation. Indeed, the Baltic States asked to become part of the USSR. They shouldn`t come and cry about that. :11088:

Movement between classes was possible ;)


Yes, but it haven't helped them much - the war was finished in Berlin, not Moscow.

I bet these SS-officers could get lots of German chicks. But then again, the Red Army soldiers in Berlin also got lots of German chicks.

Korotky Gennady
04-10-2012, 21:14
I bet these SS-officers could get lots of German chicks. But then again, the Red Army soldiers in Berlin also got lots of German chicks.

Only yankies had got no Berliners.

robertmf
04-10-2012, 21:15
Only yankies had got no Berliners.

"Ich bin ein Berliner"

Jas
04-10-2012, 21:19
Hmm... "Rodina'' is the country where it happent to you to be born... This country can be good or bad.

So you shouldn'd fight and die for the bad Rodina.

And many germans weren't obliged to fight for Nazi Germany so many russians had moral right no to fight for Stalin's Russia.

No, this is rong. All Soviet people and all people who love a world without Nazism have a moral duty to fight for the Russian nation.
Stalinism?
It's nothing when compared to the Russian nation. Who in their right mind wud dump the Russian people just cos of the sake of one man? This is the kind of mentality the Nazis could have profited from and they wud have thought like this: "The Russians are a rabble and will not fight."
Now in a battle of life and death...... there's no question that such a destructive and dangerous mentality wud need to be controlled or the whole country wud fall apart like it did in 1917. Is that what u wud have wanted... the country handed over to the SS just cos u don't like Stalin? Centuries of future generations lost..... just because of a leader u happen not to like.
C, whether u like Stalin or not..... fact is, when the motherland calls u and stuff- u got to listen- no iffs or butts.
Same as me... I don't like some things about the UK- but if I was asked to help it in any way then I wud not hesitate in a time of war.

Korotky Gennady
04-10-2012, 21:28
I don't like some things about the UK- but if I was asked to help it in any way then I wud not hesitate in a time of war.

What an absurd !

What the hell should you die for English Crown ?

For English Queen and her royal family ?

Better let this United Kingdom go to Hell... but you can marry an american or a russian and live happily in the United States or Russia after that.

Think what good things did English Crown make for you ?

Nothing for sure...

They even didn't give you enough money or good job but you are ready to fight for their political interests... What can be more unreasonable and silly ?

Jas
04-10-2012, 21:35
What an absurd !

What the hell should you die for English Crown ?

For English Queen and her royal family ?

Better let this United Kingdom go to Hell... but you can marry an american or a russian and live happily in the United States or Russia after that.

Think what good things did English Crown make for you ?

Nothing for sure...

C, there u go again. Just as u wouldn't fight for the Russian people cos you don't like Stalin, u expect me not to want to help Britain in a time of war because I presumably don't like the British crown!
How can u be so self indulgent?

Who u like and who u don't like doesn't matter. Ure not fighting for them- for fighting for ure country (if that's what it comes too). Don't u understand that?
U have such a petty, third world mentality, Gennady.
Whether I like the British crown or not.... I am British and I wud know what side I wud be on if Britain asked me to make a choice.

People on this site just assumed I'm not patriotic for the UK somehow. Er, sorry, that's a big mistake.

Jas
04-10-2012, 21:39
I get this all the time from Russians.... they love to tell me cos I am brown and of non Anglo-Saxon heritage I shouldn't identify with the UK. I distrust that attitude and consider it linked to passive racism.

When u deal with me.... do so as I am a person from the UK or not at all. That's totally important to me.

Korotky Gennady
04-10-2012, 21:43
People on this site just assumed I'm not patriotic for the UK somehow. Er, sorry, that's a big mistake.

You know... Human mind is the greatest thing in the world.

Why should you be patriotic for UK ? What are your reasons for that except that they forced you in the british school to think this wrong way...

If you wanna be the real writer, forget all this patriotic bullsh//t and fight only for good people and yourself.

Don't fight for imperialism. http://www.securitylab.ru/upload/iblock/741/741d08a61250ee17e53170f596982250.jpg

The imperialistic British Crown robed, humiliated and exploited Pakistan and pakistani people during centuries...

http://www.planetguide.ru/eimage/2011/09/28/28134e83013d0de1e.jpg

And now you want to die for your ex-masters.

Jas
04-10-2012, 21:54
You know... Human mind is the greatest thing in the world.

Why should you be patriotic for UK ? What are your reasons for that except that they forced you in the british school to think this wrong way...

If you wanna be the real writer, forget all this patriotic bullsh//t and fight only for good people and yourself.

Don't fight for imperialism. http://www.securitylab.ru/upload/iblock/741/741d08a61250ee17e53170f596982250.jpg

The imperialistic British Crown robed and exploited Pakistan and pakistani people during centuries...

It's one thing to be politically on the left as I am and yes, I agree with what you're saying about imperialism. The thing is.... in the UK I have the right to say what I want and that's is worth defending. That doesn't make me an apologist for imperialism in any way.
Like I told, I am British and that's how u have to deal with me.

Jas
04-10-2012, 21:58
Er Gennady, I don't think u understand the point. Those gora sahib people was under the Raj. I don't live under the Raj (just as u don't live under Stalin) and I am not damaged by the historical memory of it cos I don't believe in making meself a lifelong victim thanks.

robertmf
04-10-2012, 22:06
You know... Human mind is the greatest thing in the world ...

And now you want to die for your ex-masters.

*MickeyTong* might correct me, but I believe that is a trait of the Stockholm Syndrome.

Stockholm syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jas
04-10-2012, 22:12
*MickeyTong* might correct me, but I believe that is a trait of the Stockholm Syndrome.

Stockholm syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome)



Again, seeing people only on the basis of race. Claiming I got Stockholm syndrome is a way to say Pakistanis can never be patriotic for the UK to clear the field for the racists to move in.
Are u so fcking stupid, u don't realize I know how it all works?

franzewich
05-10-2012, 00:47
Holocaust Victims and death toll

Victims Killed
Jews 5.9 million
Soviet POWs 2–3 million
Ethnic Poles 1.8–2 million
Romani 220,000–1,500,000
Disabled 200,000–250,000
Freemasons 80,000
Slovenes 20,000–25,000
Homosexuals 5,000–15,000
Jehovah's
Witnesses 2,500–5,000

The number of victims depends on which definition of "the Holocaust" is used. Donald Niewyk and Francis Nicosia write in The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust that the term is commonly defined as the mass murder of more than 5 million European Jews. They further state that 'Not everyone finds this a fully satisfactory definition.'[8] According to Martin Gilbert the total number of victims is just under six million—around 78 percent of the 7.3 million Jews in occupied Europe at the time.[261]

Broader definitions include approximately 2 to 3 million Soviet POWs, 2 million ethnic Poles, up to 1,500,000 Romani, 200,000 handicapped, political and religious dissenters, 15,000 homosexuals and 5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses, bringing the death toll to around 11 million. The broadest definition would include 6 million Soviet civilians, raising the death toll to 17 million.[8] R.J. Rummel estimates the total democide death toll of Nazi Germany to be 21 million. Other estimates put total casualties of Soviet Union's citizens alone to about 26 million.[262]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

I'm perfectly aware of the numbers. If you bothered to read posts #25 and 26 again more carefully you will see that I was mere questioning the number of half a billion (!) Russians killed by Stalin which Andy proposed. Exaggerating figures does not improve things.

MickeyTong
05-10-2012, 00:52
As one writer said: "The biggest horror of a war is that good people are killing other good people there."


"War is a bayonet with a Worker at both ends."

Korotky Gennady
05-10-2012, 01:09
*MickeyTong* might correct me, but I believe that is a trait of the Stockholm Syndrome.

Stockholm syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome)

Robert, yeah.

The same syndrome that our stalinists have. You can not imagine how many stalinists are now in Russia...

Stalin turned them to the dust under his feet but today their children praised him and his deeds...

franzewich
05-10-2012, 01:14
I believe within all of us nature has placed an inherent understanding of right and wrong, therefore I would say if this young soldier raped and murdered in cold blood unarmed villagers then he is guilty of war crimes and his age, mental state due to brain washing etc. could be admissible as contributing factors mitigating to some small degree his crimes.

Bizarre. How do you want to know that this kid did all these things that you are accusing him of? Simply stick your nose into a history book (or ask Benedikt) and you will see that Vienna is the capital of Austria - which was an ally of Germany. Why should he rape and kill allies? BTW, there was a severe penalty for German soldiers who raped women, which was, indded, enforced.

The were cases of American soldiers raping Vietnamese girls and massacring entire villages. Does that mean to you that every Marine was a war criminal just because he was in the U.S. Army which fought an unjust war for economic reasons in Indochina? According to your logics every American soldier - in fact every American - would be particularly guilty of My Lai, considering that the U.S.A. does enjoy free press and expression of opinion. And every Russian child would be guilty of invading Afghanistan.

Korotky Gennady
05-10-2012, 01:15
Like I told, I am British and that's how u have to deal with me.

Yeah, I can't get your point. Why is so important for you to be british ? Not pakistani, not american, not russian ?

I'm russian too but I critisize Russia when it's needed to do that...



The thing is.... in the UK I have the right to say what I want and that's is worth defending.

Look...the same you can do in the United States, in Italy and France.



Those gora sahib people was under the Raj. I don't live under the Raj (just as u don't live under Stalin)
.

Well I didn't live under Joseph Stalin's ruling but I don't want to lose my memory of the history of this country.

robertmf
05-10-2012, 01:25
Robert, yeah.

The same syndrome that our stalinists have. You can not imagine how many stalinists are now in Russia...

Stalin turned them to the dust under his feet but today their children praised him and his deeds...

The popularity of Stalin is well known to Russia watchers; especially since the 2008 survey.

For the reasons you mention, this popularity is also confusing to the West ;)

e.g., UK news essay (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-big-question-why-is-stalin-still-popular-in-russia-despite-the-brutality-of-his-regime-827654.html)

Russian Gazeta essay source (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/russianow/features/9335008/josef-stalin-revered-reviled.html) indicates moustaches popularity may be softening.

robertmf
05-10-2012, 01:29
I'm perfectly aware of the numbers. If you bothered to read posts #25 and 26 again more carefully you will see that I was mere questioning the number of half a billion (!) Russians killed by Stalin which Andy proposed. Exaggerating figures does not improve things.

Point taken - but I barely remember dinner last night ... so how am I suppose to remember #56 posts ago :question:

:Loco:

sashadidi
05-10-2012, 03:44
Did IG or WvB pay any salary to those ppl who was caught in USSR and deported to 3rd Reich?

No but for interest I was informed that some distant elderly relatives of my wife who were sent to "work" in Germany got a few thousand Euros a few years back from Germany?, small compensation for what they went through I imagine.

Benedikt
05-10-2012, 08:18
No but for interest I was informed that some distant elderly relatives of my wife who were sent to "work" in Germany got a few thousand Euros a few years back from Germany?, small compensation for what they went through I imagine.



and as you say money can not undo things. But it was also mentioned by people who received the money it was at least an official gesture and apology.
at that time than came up the story, should others who used slave labor (USA) find the descendants and pay them repatriation. or pay compensation to US- Japanese who were interred after -Perl Harbor-. A few lawyers made headlines for a few days but nothing ever came out of it.

Benedikt
05-10-2012, 08:24
Only yankies had got no Berliners.


cccp soldiers were feared in Germany, because they took more or less by force what they wanted.
GI's had it easier because they came with chocolates, pantyhose and food. and of course Coca Cola.

Benedikt
05-10-2012, 08:28
What do you call those Germans that fought the nazi-regime? `Traitors` as well?

these Cossaks was traitors. I learned about this when I was studying about Russia at university. They was led by General Vlassov who was a traitor to the Soviet Union and the Soviet people. These cossaks were just terrible and I think if u side with ure nations's enemy in a time of such a war- then u can expect to be shot.


traitors or terrorists to one, freedom fighters,refugee or asylum seekers to others.
difference today though, if you apply for asylum and can more or less -prove- that your live back -home- will be in danger, no state will send you back.

ddixon85
05-10-2012, 09:16
Same as me... I don't like some things about the UK- but if I was asked to help it in any way then I wud not hesitate in a time of war.

The cheapest form of pride however is national pride. For it betrays in the one thus afflicted the lack of individual qualities of which he could be proud, while he would not otherwise reach for what he shares with so many millions.
Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.
George Bernard Shaw

Our true nationality is mankind.
H. G. Wells

Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception.
George Orwell

A nation is a society united by a delusion about its ancestry and a common fear of its neighbors.
W. R. Inge

Nationalism ... is like cheap alcohol. First it makes you drunk, then it makes you blind, then it kills you.
Dan Fried

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.
Albert Einstein

Religion and nationalism, as well as any custom and any belief however absurd and degrading, if it only connects the individual with others, are refuges from what man most dreads: isolation.
Erich Fromm

Korotky Gennady
05-10-2012, 15:10
ddixon, op... :))) the good quotes.

It's difficult to say better.

FatAndy
05-10-2012, 15:27
No but for interest I was informed that some distant elderly relatives of my wife who were sent to "work" in Germany got a few thousand Euros a few years back from Germany

Exactly. Only one question - why it was done not in 195x, 6x, 7x, 8x?

Benedikt
05-10-2012, 15:33
Exactly. Only one question - why it was done not in 195x, 6x, 7x, 8x?



maybe the Germans were waiting so long, the more victims died the less they had to pay?
or more logical answer? most of the people left Germany/Poland/ CSSR as it was called than. And came back to Russia, emigrated to America, Israel of God knows where? suppose it takes time to find them all?

Korotky Gennady
05-10-2012, 15:36
Exactly. Only one question - why it was done not in 195x, 6x, 7x, 8x? becoz of the too many ex-SS members in German government in those times ! :)))

Benedikt
05-10-2012, 15:39
becoz of the too many ex-SS members in German government in those times ! :)))



http://www.wollheim-memorial.de/files/995/original/pdf_Peer_Heinelt_Die_Entschaedigung_der_NS-Zwangsarbeiterinnen_und_-Zwangsarbeiter.pdf

sorry the document is in German language. they started with Krupp already in '59 to negotiate but from what i was reading quickly through it, EVERYBODY was dragging their feet.

sashadidi
06-10-2012, 00:56
Exactly. Only one question - why it was done not in 195x, 6x, 7x, 8x?
Cold War? or being german they worked and saved up their Deutschmarks first and then swapped them for Euros (making money on the exchange!!):D

Benedikt
06-10-2012, 06:40
Cold War? or being german they worked and saved up their Deutschmarks first and then swapped them for Euros (making money on the exchange!!):D



not even planned. the only thing that was was the ECU (European Currency Unit) sort of Inter banking/ transfer payment method. and everybody than though this would be the name for the new money but that was far, far away. that time no one was thinking of a common Europe.
Cold war was only one reason, as the German documents states. it was very hard to get any information out of the -Comecon- countries and cccp. but people also emigrated to the -west-.
Another story goes. Factories who used -slave labour- paid the SS ( the state) 5 Reichsmark per person per day. This is also been documented in -Schindler's List-. so they argued yes, it was forced labor but we paid the state, so let them pay compensation. In the end KRUPP, IG Farben, what become than known as VW, and the like, than paid up. But it was a pittance indeed.The companies for sure had profited and got more than their pound of flesh. And as far as i can make out from these documents, no apologies ever came forward from these companies. Only from the State of Germany.

And it became even more complicated, because now groups of people were added that were not before considered for compensation.


Now in the point of view got sacrificial groups, to date only in special cases, as a rule not at all for to them added ones
Grief had been compensated: Sinti and Roma, homosexual, war service deniers, compulsive-sterilised‚ antisocial„, communists and just surviving ones Forced laborers, in particular from East Europe and the Soviet Union. With
then to the entry of the GDR to the state area of the FRG in 1990 the compensation practise of the East German state also became a subject of critical investigations.


---------------------------
Translated by PROMT™
http://www.promt.com

Dicorp
09-10-2012, 17:04
Dunno what WAS worse as it was long time ago but today's Capitalism headlined by the USA and Israel is the ultimate evil.

TolkoRaz
09-10-2012, 17:12
Germany lost the War with the tank, but is winning the current one by using the Bank! ;)