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Jas
28-09-2012, 19:43
This is what I think Europe would be losing. Answer this:

1) Would you want to lose great athletes like those who won so much gold for the UK?

2) Imagine your local high street, no curry houses anymore, no Chinese restaurants. Is that what u really want?

3) What would it mean for the public sector- the NHS and all those companies that rely on trained labor?

4) Who would do the more basic sort of jobs that most non-immigrants just turn their noses up at, but which are vital, like home help services for the old, or in Russia- construction jobs etc?

5) What would happen to mixed race families?

6) Imagine turning on the radio and there's no more music other than brass bands and bagpipes maybe.

7) What happens to the thousands of businesses run by immigrants that just disappear- leaving mass unemployment and the now empty immigrant communities that would just be like ghost towns?

8) Who would replace all the taxes immigrants pay?

9) How would Europe deal with a ageing population?

10) Worst of all maybe, how would Europe survive the crushing of indvidual rights and freedoms that waging this 'war' some people here have mentioned would mean for democracy (or is that part of the plan?)

My opinion is this: it is impossible to imagine Europe without immigrants, without Muslims, and not staying on the peaceful path it is on. This 'war' on immigrants people mentioned quite often here would destroy Europe's very fabric, its culture, its democracy, its economy, its soul- and yes- its very identity as a liberal union of progressive states.

Open your eyes, wake up to reality, and think positive!

Jas
28-09-2012, 19:52
I feel sure some will say they're only focusing on *Muslim* immigrants- as if that somehow exonerates them. It's terrifying that such evil gets said so matter of factly here sometimes.

Nobbynumbnuts
28-09-2012, 20:07
The USA wouldn't exists if it wasn't for immigrants and i have to say (and i have said it before on this forum) that immigrants bring a lot to the UK too.
I think most people understand there have to be controls on immigration but the only way the world will ever find peace, if it's at all possible, is when we all understand each other.
Immigration helps that process.

Muromets
28-09-2012, 20:32
The UK as we know is mostly immigrant too. Be it Roman stock, Angles, Danes, Saxons, Normans, Huguenots, Italians, Dutch, etc.,etc. There seems to very little left of the original Britons, so I don't buy all the rubbish against immigrants.

Ditto Russia. What does it mean to be a 'Russian' anyway? A Scythian? A Pecheneg? An Alan? What about Tatars? Germans? Caucasians? Perhaps the 'real' Russians should be Eskimos and Chukchis?

Nobbynumbnuts
28-09-2012, 20:43
The UK as we know is mostly immigrant too. Be it Roman stock, Angles, Danes, Saxons, Normans, Huguenots, Italians, Dutch, etc.,etc. There seems to very little left of the original Britons, so I don't buy all the rubbish against immigrants.

Ditto Russia. What does it mean to be a 'Russian' anyway? A Scythian? A Pecheneg? An Alan? What about Tatars? Germans? Caucasians? Perhaps the 'real' Russians should be Eskimos and Chukchis?

Amen to that. :)

Jas
28-09-2012, 21:00
Once a society becomes multicultural-multiracial, racial defintions of nationality don't mean anything.

rusmeister
28-09-2012, 22:38
This is what I think Europe would be losing. Answer this:

1) Would you want to lose great athletes like those who won so much gold for the UK?

2) Imagine your local high street, no curry houses anymore, no Chinese restaurants. Is that what u really want?

3) What would it mean for the public sector- the NHS and all those companies that rely on trained labor?

4) Who would do the more basic sort of jobs that most non-immigrants just turn their noses up at, but which are vital, like home help services for the old, or in Russia- construction jobs etc?

5) What would happen to mixed race families?

6) Imagine turning on the radio and there's no more music other than brass bands and bagpipes maybe.

7) What happens to the thousands of businesses run by immigrants that just disappear- leaving mass unemployment and the now empty immigrant communities that would just be like ghost towns?

8) Who would replace all the taxes immigrants pay?

9) How would Europe deal with a ageing population?

10) Worst of all maybe, how would Europe survive the crushing of indvidual rights and freedoms that waging this 'war' some people here have mentioned would mean for democracy (or is that part of the plan?)

My opinion is this: it is impossible to imagine Europe without immigrants, without Muslims, and not staying on the peaceful path it is on. This 'war' on immigrants people mentioned quite often here would destroy Europe's very fabric, its culture, its democracy, its economy, its soul- and yes- its very identity as a liberal union of progressive states.

Open your eyes, wake up to reality, and think positive!

1) Yes. I don't care about athletes.
2) I feel no pain from the loss of foreign cuisines.
3) They'd have to hire people from (gasp!) my own country! My country would be more strongly stimulated to train such people themselves.
4) you mean low-qualified, low-paid jobs. Answer - it would force the raising of wages for those jobs. Everyone would be more wealthy (except for super-rich multinational corporations) as more wealth remains in the local community.
5) why should anything happen to them? There wouldn't be as many. So what?
6) I can imagine that. If you are from Scotland, you won't mind bagpipes; you might even develop a special appreciation for them.
7) they would not exist. And good riddance.
8) we all know the massive tax load immigrants bear. Not impressed.
9) they might have more children, instead of aborting them all.
10) what "war" exactly are you talking about, and what individual rights and freedoms are due to whom?

Why are you so eager for immigration? How many countries do you want to immigrate to? Why this push to drag foreigners into your country?

sis
28-09-2012, 23:39
1) Yes. I don't care about athletes.
2) I feel no pain from the loss of foreign cuisines.
3) They'd have to hire people from (gasp!) my own country! My country would be more strongly stimulated to train such people themselves.
4) you mean low-qualified, low-paid jobs. Answer - it would force the raising of wages for those jobs. Everyone would be more wealthy (except for super-rich multinational corporations) as more wealth remains in the local community.
5) why should anything happen to them? There wouldn't be as many. So what?
6) I can imagine that. If you are from Scotland, you won't mind bagpipes; you might even develop a special appreciation for them.
7) they would not exist. And good riddance.
8) we all know the massive tax load immigrants bear. Not impressed.
9) they might have more children, instead of aborting them all.
10) what "war" exactly are you talking about, and what individual rights and freedoms are due to whom?

Why are you so eager for immigration? How many countries do you want to immigrate to? Why this push to drag foreigners into your country?

You are also an immigrant... I don't really understand your reasoning. What would you say if Russia decided to stop giving visas to anybody who is not ethnically Slavic? Or banned anybody without blue eyes and blond hair from passing the customs check at Domodedovo?

RichardB
29-09-2012, 00:47
1) Would you want to lose great athletes like those who won so much gold for the UK?

2) Imagine your local high street, no curry houses anymore, no Chinese restaurants. Is that what u really want?

3) What would it mean for the public sector- the NHS and all those companies that rely on trained labor?

4) Who would do the more basic sort of jobs that most non-immigrants just turn their noses up at, but which are vital, like home help services for the old, or in Russia- construction jobs etc?

5) What would happen to mixed race families?

6) Imagine turning on the radio and there's no more music other than brass bands and bagpipes maybe.

7) What happens to the thousands of businesses run by immigrants that just disappear- leaving mass unemployment and the now empty immigrant communities that would just be like ghost towns?

8) Who would replace all the taxes immigrants pay?

9) How would Europe deal with a ageing population?

10) Worst of all maybe, how would Europe survive the crushing of indvidual rights and freedoms that waging this 'war' some people here have mentioned would mean for democracy (or is that part of the plan?)

My opinion is this: it is impossible to imagine Europe without immigrants, without Muslims, and not staying on the peaceful path it is on. This 'war' on immigrants people mentioned quite often here would destroy Europe's very fabric, its culture, its democracy, its economy, its soul- and yes- its very identity as a liberal union of progressive states.

Open your eyes, wake up to reality, and think positive!

1. British sports people would have to learn to be better than they are.
2. More room on the traditional High Street then. Artisan shops, tradesmen, craft shops, coffee shops etc. Just like we had before the 1970's.
3. Less medical malpractice suits caused by the lower qualifications required by Asian medical staff etc.
4. The perfect job creation scheme for the unemployed.
5. No more half caste kids.
6. More home-grown talent. Manchester and Liverpool have been doing this for years.
7. See number 4. Also, goodbye ghettos.
8. See number 4.
9. Fewer older people from abroad.
10. Bollocks. Why would Europe have the crushing of indvidual (sic) rights and freedoms just because the Asians go home?

My opinion is if you want to see what a Europe would look like without foreigners then head for the northern regions of Europe. White skin as far as the eye can see.


You are also an immigrant... I don't really understand your reasoning. What would you say if Russia decided to stop giving visas to anybody who is not ethnically Slavic? Or banned anybody without blue eyes and blond hair from passing the customs check at Domodedovo?

Very good point.


and think positive I am. We can all have our dreams.

Shooters
29-09-2012, 01:59
Most of immigrants that come to Europe are the worse people of their countries, they bring nothing but problems to their "new home". in france 70% of inmates are from immigration (some are french as various french gov kindly gave the french citizenship to anybody who asked!). Of course teddy-bear-people can say that it is an evidence that french police is racist... But normal people say that it is an evidence that 15% of the population (french immigrants are accounted between 15 and 20% of total) commit 70% of crimes.

They also COST a lot of money in a country where free health care is a "religion"! Read the net online, you will find MANY reports from doctors about these kind people that WANT all for free, even not really necessary care...

GOOD immigrants work, but as unemployed rate is higher and higher I consider that Russia is a good example to follow" To give the preference to nationals, and to strictly regulate and limit the right to work for immigrants.

Immigrants should be welcome to STUDY, assuming they go back home after they get their degree, considering that their competences will be more useful for their native country than for a western european one. And of course considering the necessary PATRIOTISM that should be, an immigrant should be proud to come back home to help his co-nationals.

Europe without immigrants would be bad only on one point: High unemployed rate in cops and prison wardens )))

Of course I consider here (as Jas did but without saying it!) mostly immigrants from maghreb and africa :) Usually immigrants from America, Europe etc, don't make bardak... But they are not a lot too, Europe does not attract them as their countries have a similar or higher level of life.

Well I will again be insulted by the usual moralists, go ahead, it makes me laugh :)

peppermintpaddy
29-09-2012, 03:38
Unfortunately ,the UK has had far too many of these immigrants in the last few years

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BPDTTrcJixI


read all about it....

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4211154/Cops-nab-13-over-child-sex-ring.html ....

robertmf
29-09-2012, 03:54
Most of immigrants that come to Europe are the worse people of their countries, they bring nothing but problems to their "new home".

Sounds like you describing the ..ahem.. transported Australians or the Colonial Americans :verycool:

rusmeister
29-09-2012, 04:59
You are also an immigrant... I don't really understand your reasoning. What would you say if Russia decided to stop giving visas to anybody who is not ethnically Slavic? Or banned anybody without blue eyes and blond hair from passing the customs check at Domodedovo?

I do, in general believe in the right of a people to decide what they will and will not tolerate in their borders, and that really IS democratic - granting them the same right to rule themselves that I want for my own nation. If they do not themselves choose democracy, that's their business. It is still my democratic principle to extend them the right to make their own decisions. As long as it's not wildly immoral - a Holocaust, for example - nations have a legitimate right to decide who they will accept. The borderline is citizenship to me. If they grant me citizenship, they HAVE to put with me as a citizen. But that's their own fault (if they have anything to complain about, they are now complaining about one of their own).

My hair is grey, anyway. :)

Jas
29-09-2012, 09:57
You are also an immigrant... I don't really understand your reasoning. What would you say if Russia decided to stop giving visas to anybody who is not ethnically Slavic? Or banned anybody without blue eyes and blond hair from passing the customs check at Domodedovo?

Rus misses the point. People of 'his own nationality' (so are the immigrants), wudn't want to do the jobs!

Jas
29-09-2012, 09:59
Of course I consider here (as Jas did but without saying it!) mostly immigrants from maghreb and africa :) Usually immigrants from America, Europe etc, don't make bardak... But they are not a lot too, Europe does not attract them as their countries have a similar or higher level of life.

Well I will again be insulted by the usual moralists, go ahead, it makes me laugh :)

Interesting. So if you're from Pakistan or Somalia ure a immigrant, but if ure from Austraila and want to live in Europe- ure not? It sounds like a racial definition to me.

Jas
29-09-2012, 10:00
Unfortunately ,the UK has had far too many of these immigrants in the last few years

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BPDTTrcJixI


read all about it....

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4211154/Cops-nab-13-over-child-sex-ring.html ....


PP, with all due respect, what has the stuff about a sex ring got to do with immigration? Seriously? I truly don't get you at this point.

RichardB
29-09-2012, 10:21
... what has the stuff about a sex ring got to do with immigration?...

I agree but it has made me wonder. There was a similar story to this less than a year ago in Rochdale (I think) where another gang of Asian men where jailed for doing pretty much the same thing - plying white teenage girls with drink and drugs and abusing them.

Does this happen elsewhere in the world or is it a UK phenomenon? If so then what is it about the UK that encourages foreign men to commit these crimes? The breakdown of the nuclear family? Are British white girls seen as easy targets? Is it the growth of the wannabe culture where trashy magazines spend more time fawning over celebrities who have gained / lost a bit of weight and as a result most traditional family values have gone out of the windows?

sis
29-09-2012, 10:23
I do, in general believe in the right of a people to decide what they will and will not tolerate in their borders, and that really IS democratic - granting them the same right to rule themselves that I want for my own nation. If they do not themselves choose democracy, that's their business. It is still my democratic principle to extend them the right to make their own decisions. As long as it's not wildly immoral - a Holocaust, for example - nations have a legitimate right to decide who they will accept. The borderline is citizenship to me. If they grant me citizenship, they HAVE to put with me as a citizen. But that's their own fault (if they have anything to complain about, they are now complaining about one of their own).

My hair is grey, anyway. :)
Well these European countries do make it possible for foreigners to immigrate, and receive citizenship, as does Russia. I tend to think that this is a good thing. I quite like living in Russia to some extent, and I would be a little sad If I could not live here.

I think that it is a little hypocritical for immigrants in russia to say that they dont want immigrants back in their home countries. This is the point, not weather you agree or not with nations having the right to create laws on immigration.

The reason most people don't like immigrants is that they are either:

1. Misguided: "the foreigners cost me money" - even if every foreigner were to receive welfare payments the money would come back to the french state anyway. Mustafa would go with his welfare payment to Carefour and buy french bread and lamb, then he would go and pay his rent to Pier, and then go and cook his halal food on his moulinex cooker. All along the chain the money is coming back as VAT, and generally being distributed through the french economy as a whole.

2. THey think that the Moroccans are all thieving cu*ts - On this note I have to say that I tend to agree. Even Jaz has a tendency to spout cleptocratic statements from time to time. But this is more of an issue of law enforcement. Here i would let the Muslims introduce Sharia law to some degree. Steal something, and you get your hand chopped of. It would sort the problem out.

3. Are Racist: They dont like paki's but have no problem with Russian Chicks. This i guess is genetically wired in alot of people. Surely there is some evolutionary reason that most people are racist. I heard once a theory about sexual selection - that people generally like people that look like their mothers. That is why an african girl might not be attractive for you, but for an african man she might be very beautiful.

Interestingly in the Dominican republic, after the war the president (Trujilo the 'Goat') had a policy of 'whitening' the population. Thats why you can find a lot of eastern europeans in Santa Domingo.

4. or Envious. The Germans did not like the jews, the malasians do not like the chinese, and the english dont like the hindus. Why? Because they are smarter and wealthier

so why don't you like Immigrants Mr Rusmeister?

Shooters
29-09-2012, 10:38
Interesting. So if you're from Pakistan or Somalia ure a immigrant, but if ure from Austraila and want to live in Europe- ure not? It sounds like a racial definition to me.

Both are immigrants, but statistics AND SIMPLE OBSERVATION show that the first category bring more problems to their :new country", and the second category brings more advantages :)

Look: Who is more interesting for the country: A Pakistanese who sells umbrellas in the metro, or an Aussie that comes with a PhD ot something like this? Of course you could find also some Pakis with PhD, but...

Of course fellow immigrants who come by full truck or boat from Africa to Europe do not care of the interest of the country, but of THEIR interest; they see Europe like a milk cow, gov gives money, free housing, free health care, free food, and even free advocates that will allow them to fight the already poor immigration law so they can stay forever in this nice country!

Moreover as these nice immigrants often do not want to adopt local way of life, do not want to respect the inhabitants of their "new country", well, why should they be accepted?

Go to france; visit the nice (and dangerous) metro. Look WHO sells narcotics... and umbrellas :) Aussis? Americans? Not sure...

Moreover you are speaking of RACE? YOU are speaking. Did I? I spoke about the country of origin :) BTW there is a law in france since about 10 years that says that races do not exist LOL!

Jas
29-09-2012, 11:25
Both are immigrants, but statistics AND SIMPLE OBSERVATION show that the first category bring more problems to their :new country", and the second category brings more advantages :)

Look: Who is more interesting for the country: A Pakistanese who sells umbrellas in the metro, or an Aussie that comes with a PhD ot something like this? Of course you could find also some Pakis with PhD, but...

Of course fellow immigrants who come by full truck or boat from Africa to Europe do not care of the interest of the country, but of THEIR interest; they see Europe like a milk cow, gov gives money, free housing, free health care, free food, and even free advocates that will allow them to fight the already poor immigration law so they can stay forever in this nice country!

Moreover as these nice immigrants often do not want to adopt local way of life, do not want to respect the inhabitants of their "new country", well, why should they be accepted?

Go to france; visit the nice (and dangerous) metro. Look WHO sells narcotics... and umbrellas :) Aussis? Americans? Not sure...

Moreover you are speaking of RACE? YOU are speaking. Did I? I spoke about the country of origin :) BTW there is a law in france since about 10 years that says that races do not exist LOL!


Huge assumption here that Pakistani immigrants wud just be selling umbrellas. Most are highly educated- doctors and accountants. Sorry, but u do sound highly prejudiced. Plenty of Americans get locked out of Europe due to their criminal records etc. By the way, what ure telling about umbrellas make me think of the fascist assassin in Firenze who killed 5 Senagalese umbrella salesman last December. Guess he didn't like poor brolley salesmen.

peppermintpaddy
29-09-2012, 11:30
PP, with all due respect, what has the stuff about a sex ring got to do with immigration? Seriously? I truly don't get you at this point.

I think its relevant.......you were highlighting the benefits of immigration....i was pointing out the dangers of it....(the judge said in the last case,that the paedophile gang targeted children not of their own religion and community)

peppermintpaddy
29-09-2012, 11:42
I agree but it has made me wonder. There was a similar story to this less than a year ago in Rochdale (I think) where another gang of Asian men where jailed for doing pretty much the same thing - plying white teenage girls with drink and drugs and abusing them.

Does this happen elsewhere in the world or is it a UK phenomenon? If so then what is it about the UK that encourages foreign men to commit these crimes? The breakdown of the nuclear family? Are British white girls seen as easy targets? Is it the growth of the wannabe culture where trashy magazines spend more time fawning over celebrities who have gained / lost a bit of weight and as a result most traditional family values have gone out of the windows?

Good question...does it happen elsewhere?....dunno,but I know its rife in the uk....I was personally told of it happening in Bradford in the 90's....the Rochdale case was first reported in 2009,but the police were too frightened of being accused of racism to investigate it.The judge in the Rochdale case said that the perps preyed upon vulnerable girls who were not of their religion or community...

There are (to me)obvious benefits to immigration,but also it causes many problems also....thats why I pointed out the latest paedo sex ring by Muslims-(FACT).....Now if that offends some Muslims or their apologists -tough luck,its a fact.

So the question is...do the immigration pros outnumber the cons.?I think limited immigration is probably a good thing,but the criteria should be stringent,at the moment ,the great unskilled from all over Europe can come to the UK and settle.

TolkoRaz
29-09-2012, 12:14
Paddy, I think it is quite ironic when you think 'half' of Ireland emigrated to the US of A, Australia or some other land ;)

Immigration is a good thing, but it must be robustly controlled and those arriving in the new land should not anticipate in being able to accommodate their lifestyle, culture or customs or force them upon the country, or local community - they must remember that they are 'guests'.

The main problem comes when they become 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants so they believe that they are French, German or British etc and that is when problems arise.

peppermintpaddy
29-09-2012, 12:28
Paddy, I think it is quite ironic when you think 'half' of Ireland emigrated to the US of A, Australia or some other land ;)

Immigration is a good thing, but it must be robustly controlled and those arriving in the new land should not anticipate in being able to accommodate their lifestyle, culture or customs or force them upon the country, or local community - they must remember that they are 'guests'.

The main problem comes when they become 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants so they believe that they are French, German or British etc and that is when problems arise.

Correct.But the guests we have invited in have already re-arranged the furniture and are now wanting to change the name on the tenancy....

You and I know there are no problems with French German or British immigrants in Europe....youre just being PC as usual...the problems arise because of crime or Religion,namely Islam....Face that fact

..nobody has ever made a single complaint in the UK about the Chinese for instance,and theyve been here for generations.Why....?because theyre law abiding and non-Religious.

rusmeister
29-09-2012, 12:34
Rus misses the point. People of 'his own nationality' (so are the immigrants), wudn't want to do the jobs!

I didn't "miss" that point. I think I've thought about it a little more deeply than you have. People generally want employment. There are a great many people that are not middle or upper-class intellectual snobs who will do honest physical work for fair pay. Richard was quite right that unemployment is a phenomenon that generally accompanies wide-scale immigration. If someone wants a job done, they will either offer sufficient wage for people to do it, or do it themselves, or not do it at all. The whole "advantage" of immigration here is simply that it lowers the bar on what an employer must pay, resulting in a general decrease of wealth and greater disparity of it between the employing class and those employed. Again, immigration benefits empire and the wealthy, big government and big business, or as Chesterton called them, "Hudge and Gudge". It does not benefit the ordinary man, who he called "Jones".

Jas
29-09-2012, 12:39
I think its relevant.......you were highlighting the benefits of immigration....i was pointing out the dangers of it....(the judge said in the last case,that the paedophile gang targeted children not of their own religion and community)

PP, look, can I tell u straight here? Those guys was just predators and they will go after whatever they can get. They didn't sit down at the back of the kebab house and tell like this, "Let's get white girls." That's not what wud have happened. Let's say if me and Parveen (for example) was both hanging around at midnight near some taxi stand or a kebab house- don't you think those guys wud have went afetr us also? Of course they wud have and I can tell u from me own experience PP (please listen to this)- that when I was going through a bad period in my life with drugs and Parveen actually on smack- those guys were out to get us. But...... it was our families! C what I mean. Even though me and Parveen had stuff in our lifes that was messed up- we weren't allowed to roam the night- our dads or our brothers would have killed us.
Now the white girls? They don't have that level of family control so these guys go after them- not cos they're white- but cos they're available (whereas we got our families over our shoulders and got very little freedom as such). Certainly, while we got to go up west on a saturday morning and even do some lifting- even if we done some stuff in the afternoon, by 5pm we was always home.
Another thing PP.... if one of these guys in Rochdale got involved with a Pakistani girl- the family wud do something- like kill him. These guys know that- so they stay away. But with the white girls, again, it comes down to family and culture- the brothers or the dad wudn't do nothing. So the predators are acting like all predators- just as opportunists and PP- this is why race has got no place in any of this.

Lastly, we know we got issues in our community and best way to stop the predators is to name and shame them in our community. But if u just insult the Pakistani Muslim community then everyone will close ranks and interpret this as racism and this stuff cud continue to go on even. So just being racist to us in response- just perpetuates the problem.

Jas
29-09-2012, 12:41
Ok, I answered the stuff in a reasonable way and now I think there's no need to keep talking about Rochdale, B-ford, or any of that kind of stuff anymore.
Thanks in advance for ure kind understanding anyhow- but it's not productive.

rusmeister
29-09-2012, 13:02
Well these European countries do make it possible for foreigners to immigrate, and receive citizenship, as does Russia. I tend to think that this is a good thing. I quite like living in Russia to some extent, and I would be a little sad If I could not live here.

I think that it is a little hypocritical for immigrants in russia to say that they dont want immigrants back in their home countries. This is the point, not weather you agree or not with nations having the right to create laws on immigration.

The reason most people don't like immigrants is that they are either:

1. Misguided: "the foreigners cost me money" - even if every foreigner were to receive welfare payments the money would come back to the french state anyway. Mustafa would go with his welfare payment to Carefour and buy french bread and lamb, then he would go and pay his rent to Pier, and then go and cook his halal food on his moulinex cooker. All along the chain the money is coming back as VAT, and generally being distributed through the french economy as a whole.

2. THey think that the Moroccans are all thieving cu*ts - On this note I have to say that I tend to agree. Even Jaz has a tendency to spout cleptocratic statements from time to time. But this is more of an issue of law enforcement. Here i would let the Muslims introduce Sharia law to some degree. Steal something, and you get your hand chopped of. It would sort the problem out.

3. Are Racist: They dont like paki's but have no problem with Russian Chicks. This i guess is genetically wired in alot of people. Surely there is some evolutionary reason that most people are racist. I heard once a theory about sexual selection - that people generally like people that look like their mothers. That is why an african girl might not be attractive for you, but for an african man she might be very beautiful.

Interestingly in the Dominican republic, after the war the president (Trujilo the 'Goat') had a policy of 'whitening' the population. Thats why you can find a lot of eastern europeans in Santa Domingo.

4. or Envious. The Germans did not like the jews, the malasians do not like the chinese, and the english dont like the hindus. Why? Because they are smarter and wealthier

so why don't you like Immigrants Mr Rusmeister?

I do not say "I do not like immigrants". I am an actual immigrant with roots in my new country, and think I have a special and greater right to criticize immigration - to suggest that there might really be negative aspects to it - than the average person, especially over people who are simply on temporary or even extended adventures that they expect to end.

I do think it good that countries have some kind of path for immigration. "No path at all" would not be good to my mind, though I would again concede the right of a nation to choose to do so, as well as the right of the people of that nation to arise and overthrow tyranny were that not what the people as a whole really wanted. The case of international couples marrying does generally require that at least one of the spouses be an immigrant, so here I am.

But Russia has no obligation to accommodate people who merely want to live here in the present continuous tense: "I am living here" (temporarily). That it does so is a courtesy as far as the foreigner is concerned.

Since I maintain my US citizenship,
I maintain my right to criticize US policy on immigration. I do pay for that right every year. There is nothing at all hypocritical about my observations and I have a special sympathy for immigrants, understanding their situation up-close and personal.

I think your reasons on why the native citizens of a country generally don't like immigrants to be incompletely informed. I think you leave out above all the fact that their ancestors, of a particular worldview (one most often superior to the worldview of the people of the land emigrated from), established a particular culture, which includes not only fine arts, but all aspects of the life (быт) of a nation, down to its language and the moral basis of its laws. Immigrants are naturally alien to its culture, and a healthy nation requires that the immigrants assimilate. An unhealthy one begins to "celebrate multiculturalism" and prates about "diversity" and "tolerance" which is the propaganda of the wealthy, big government and big business, through its privately owned mouthpieces, public education and the media, to teach and continuously tell the average citizen, "Jones", to shut up and quietly accept the erosion of his ancestral culture (including everything included above) by the importation of cheap labor that serves the interest of empires and has no part of, and eventually no desire to become part of his culture.

As an immigrant, I have "Russified" as much as possible. I accept Russia's culture and have learned all I can of it, from the language to children's stories and songs to adult literature (in which I hold a Master's Degree), and even the most Russian religion, first encountered through the coincidence of my wife's conversion, and later convinced of its truth with my mind and heart. I think that normal citizens have no problem with such immigrants. But they are an underwhelming minority of immigrants as a whole. And too many are simply migrants, which is worse, for those only wish to use the other nation as a means of temporary personal enrichment, and to pump wealth decidedly OUT of the local community. So I think there are deeper considerations, and you cannot simply accuse ordinary people of being unreasonable in not caring for migrants or immigrants.

So I really don't think your ideas touch on that deeper fact at all.

rusmeister
29-09-2012, 13:12
Paddy, I think it is quite ironic when you think 'half' of Ireland emigrated to the US of A, Australia or some other land ;)

Immigration is a good thing, but it must be robustly controlled and those arriving in the new land should not anticipate in being able to accommodate their lifestyle, culture or customs or force them upon the country, or local community - they must remember that they are 'guests'.

The main problem comes when they become 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants so they believe that they are French, German or British etc and that is when problems arise.

I do agree with your first comments on immigration (and think Ireland and Poland bear special commentary). I only disagree in that I think that what you call "2nd/3rd generation immigrants" are not in fact immigrants, although the first generation born to immigrants does deal with real effects of the immigration, which become largely irrelevant to following generations as the new land becomes, for them, their native land. (I suppose only a fanatical enforcement of ghettos can prolong/delay assimilation, but the attempts generally fail. External culture has too much influence. So a "3rd generation whatever-American" is just an American as far as I am concerned. Even skin color doesn't matter if he thoroughly shares my culture and it is as native to him as to me. I think it wrong to treat him as "an immigrant" just because his grandparents were. For this reason, I also reject the popular term (imposed on the pulace by schools and the media) "Native American" as applied to American Indians, for I am a native American, and I am native to nowhere else, even if I have a great-great-great grandfather for an immigrant.

rubyrussia
29-09-2012, 13:13
Perhaps Jas, you consider yourself an immigrant. Therefore, when somebody mentions they don't like various aspects of immigrants and immigration itself, you consider it some sort of personal attack.

Jas
29-09-2012, 13:18
Perhaps Jas, you consider yourself an immigrant. Therefore, when somebody mentions they don't like immigration various aspects of immigration, you consider it a personal attack on yourself.

Er no, I don't think so thanks. But I gave already a very open and honest answer to Peppermint's point (see above) and so that side of the debate is closed now cos nothing good can come of it. The issues are complex and racism just gets in the way of getting issues solved.Besides, this is not about the Pakistani muslim community. I done plenty of stuff on me own community- but expat.ru isn't the place for that.
Immigration in Europe means from Russia to Portugal and I dunno why we shud be focused upon on a continent of 500 million personages. I'm not trying to shut down debate, just trying to be balanced.

TolkoRaz
29-09-2012, 13:23
Correct.But the guests we have invited in have already re-arranged the furniture and are now wanting to change the name on the tenancy....

You and I know there are no problems with French German or British immigrants in Europe....youre just being PC as usual...the problems arise because of crime or Religion,namely Islam....Face that fact

..nobody has ever made a single complaint in the UK about the Chinese for instance,and theyve been here for generations.Why....?because theyre law abiding and non-Religious.

The Chinese are hardworking and only cause problems amongst themselves (Triads etc), but that is a cultural issue - the Indians are the same.

Of course there are problems in Europe from immigrants which are exasperated by the fact that the Politicians are too PC to control their demands, but this is not always to do with religion.

As for grooming of girls, this is not just confined to the Pakistani Muslim community - I think you'll find that the majority of pedophiles and human traffickers etc are not Muslim, and most are white faces of varying 'religions' and nationalities.

Jas
29-09-2012, 13:25
unemployment is a phenomenon that generally accompanies wide-scale immigration. If someone wants a job done, they will either offer sufficient wage for people to do it, or do it themselves, or not do it at all. The whole "advantage" of immigration here is simply that it lowers the bar on what an employer must pay, resulting in a general decrease of wealth and greater disparity of it between the employing class and those employed. Again, immigration benefits empire and the wealthy, big government and big business, or as Chesterton called them, "Hudge and Gudge". It does not benefit the ordinary man, who he called "Jones".

No Rus, this is nonesense cos the statistics show that immigration creates jobs through the effect it has on the economy. Chesterton (was he a president or what?) was talking before a minimum wage came in so immigration can't lower wages anyhow. Immigration does benefit the ordinary man cos it improves his services, his culture, his right to marry also whoeever he wants. It means he lives in a liberal society that also protects his rights.

Jas
29-09-2012, 13:27
As for grooming of girls, this is not just confined to the Pakistani Muslim community - I think you'll find that the majority of pedophiles and human traffickers etc are not Muslim, and most are white faces of varying 'religions' and nationalities.

That's right, Tolki.

Paedoes are mostly white according to police statistics and they been doing their bad stuff in Kambodiya and all other places for years. So? Are u going to blame all white people for that? That's why racism must be kept out of the whole issue.

TolkoRaz
29-09-2012, 13:30
I do agree with your first comments on immigration (and think Ireland and Poland bear special commentary). I only disagree in that I think that what you call "2nd/3rd generation immigrants" are not in fact immigrants, although the first generation born to immigrants does deal with real effects of the immigration, which become largely irrelevant to following generations as the new land becomes, for them, their native land. (I suppose only a fanatical enforcement of ghettos can prolong/delay assimilation, but the attempts generally fail. External culture has too much influence. So a "3rd generation whatever-American" is just an American as far as I am concerned. Even skin color doesn't matter if he thoroughly shares my culture and it is as native to him as to me. I think it wrong to treat him as "an immigrant" just because his grandparents were. For this reason, I also reject the popular term (imposed on the pulace by schools and the media) "Native American" as applied to American Indians, for I am a native American, and I am native to nowhere else, even if I have a great-great-great grandfather for an immigrant.

Rusmeister, I use that term loosely given that they have become embedded in the new country but many are still brought up and follow their heritage & culture etc as if they are still living in their previous country.

The expression, 'When in Rome do as the Romans do' is very apt, but quite often the immigrants expect to have all their ways of life accommodated without being sensitive to the host country's way of life, customs etc - that is what causes the clash and current disquiet being seen across Europe.

I think a lot of it is about attitude. The Poles have flooded Western Europe, but they have gone there to earn money, keep out of trouble, work hard etc - I have not heard anything but praise for the Poles, their work ethic and how they have integrated with a smile and no demands.

Shooters
29-09-2012, 13:33
Huge assumption here that Pakistani immigrants wud just be selling umbrellas.

Sorry yes, some sell also fruit, as I saw in the metro today. Well anyway we are speaking about Europe, hum..


Most are highly educated- doctors and accountants.

Most? For sure not most of IMMIGRANTS! The educated one stay in their country, or SHOULD stay (or go back after their studies abroad) there to assist THEIR OWN PEOPLE!

BTW I know a pakistanese surgeon who operated in Geneva, he wanted operate "in the respect of coran"... Imagine this? In Switzerland! Even peaceful Swiss decided that the game was over and sent this educated one back to his madrasa at home!



Sorry, but u do sound highly prejudiced. Plenty of Americans get locked out of Europe due to their criminal records etc. By the way, what ure telling about umbrellas make me think of the fascist assassin in Firenze who killed 5 Senagalese umbrella salesman last December. Guess he didn't like poor brolley salesmen.

There are crazzy people everywhere, and I am sure that this killer has been sentenced as it should (or will be after he got arrested if not yet).

But sorry to make you angry again, but for ONE crime committed against let's say an "exotic" immigrant (no irony this, I just dono hopw to say) by a local national, how many crimes commited by those exotic immigrants AGAINST nationals?

I can tell you a lot about france, the new trash of the world, as I lived there 30 years; I went there 2 months ago for 3 days and believe me, I was SHOCKED by what I saw! The agressivity from those guys, the lack of respect for all and everybody, etc etc. And a friend who is a high level cop in Paris told me what I anyway already knew, that most of crimes are committed by these people. I was very happy to go back to a civilized country: Russia!

And this, moreover, is bad for GOOD immigrants, because yes there are some! Some of them work and are integrated into their new country, and they pay the consequences of the awful attitude of most others.

So there is ONE solution: Send back all those "bad" guys back home, whatever the situation in their country! But which gov will do this? LOL! None in Europe, it is too late now, and the only possibility in European countries who are already invaded would be a civil war. But even this isn't possible, People of these countries are inhibited by the propaganda, or afraid to move.

So, the "everybody's nice" theory is kind but completely inadequate on this topic.

RichardB
29-09-2012, 13:49
... and so that side of the debate is closed now cos nothing good can come of it...

Ermm, its an open forum and people may well want to debate that side of it here in this thread. You can't stop them, there is nothing you can do to stop it and you need to accept that.

Don't try to stifle debate...

That was one of the many causes of the 'mini-war' the other evening.

Ibanez
29-09-2012, 13:57
Ermm, its an open forum and people may well want to debate that side of it here in this thread. You can't stop them, there is nothing you can do to stop it and you need to accept that.

Don't try to stifle debate...

That was one of the many causes of the 'mini-war' the other evening.


Jas, agree with some of your statements but unless you're a Mod you cannot shut off debate or discourse on a particular matter-it's an open forum with a lot of push/pull with various points of view which should be heard, even while not necessarily agreeing with them.

Tony P
29-09-2012, 14:21
Don't try to stifle debate...

As often alluded to, one great difficulty arises from immigrants not integrating and accepting the host country's way of life but trying to impose the way of life of the country they wanted to get away from!

Like accepting free speech, which means accepting there will be reasoned responses, even if they are contrary views.

If you won't like the answer, don't ask the question.
Simple! For some.

Lost in moscow
29-09-2012, 14:30
I like immigrants, who else is going to work at dirty jobs for minimum wage?

The issue isn't with "immigrants" as a whole, who can have a problem with someone who pays their taxes, follows the law, and is a good neighbor, respects others including their beliefs? No one, these immigrants understand that they wouldn't do so well back home, so they do everything they can to stay legally, but individuals that aren't model citizens, but criminals, or those who try to push their ideology on the host country, have to go home, considering they have fled their country which was built on that same ideology they are trying to push onto the host country.

Jas
29-09-2012, 14:32
Rusmeister, I use that term loosely given that they have become embedded in the new country but many are still brought up and follow their heritage & culture etc as if they are still living in their previous country.

The expression, 'When in Rome do as the Romans do' is very apt, but quite often the immigrants expect to have all their ways of life accommodated without being sensitive to the host country's way of life, customs etc - that is what causes the clash and current disquiet being seen across Europe.

I think a lot of it is about attitude. The Poles have flooded Western Europe, but they have gone there to earn money, keep out of trouble, work hard etc - I have not heard anything but praise for the Poles, their work ethic and how they have integrated with a smile and no demands.



Tolki, everyone follows their own culture after they emigrate to a new land. I mean, people won't become apostates just cos they have emigrated and in fact religion is a source of strength and binds people together in a strange and sometimes even unwelcoming enviroment (of course some individuals do become apostates). But in general.....
I wud say it depends on the social and educational level of the immigrants also. Like Pakistanis, u can see real social strata and if I meet a girl from say Dewsbury or Leeds say, it's quite likely her ancestral roots are in a village in Punjab or Sindh. Myself even, I got a certain strata also and it's cos of the background where we're from in Pakistan. So religion is important here cos it's the bedrock of life. If you go to Silicon Valley, u wud find Pakistanis from a more liberal and wealthier strata of PK society and that reflects in the values they take to America.
So people can not just leave Islam and start doing stuff in the name of integration that is at odds with their heritage. So regardless of what I think personally about me culture and about multiculturialism.... I realize people need time to fully adapt and we need to be sensitive to that but not allow multicultural pockets also to develop where people just don't identify with their country (be it the UK, France, Belgium or whatever). So it's a delicate balance.

Jas
29-09-2012, 14:37
I like immigrants, who else is going to work at dirty jobs for minimum wage?

The issue isn't with "immigrants" as a whole, who can have a problem with someone who pays their taxes, follows the law, and is a good neighbor, respects others including their beliefs? No one, these immigrants understand that they wouldn't do so well back home, so they do everything they can to stay legally, but individuals that aren't model citizens, but criminals, or those who try to push their ideology on the host country, have to go home, considering they have fled their country which was built on that same ideology they are trying to push onto the host country.

Me mum fled Pakistan in 1974 to the UK days after marriage and only returned in 1984 cos she was carrying me. Why did she leave Pakistan in the first place? Cos Ahmadi girls was getting abducted, raped, killed, and in many other cases forced to marry people from the dominant community. Many immigrants have similar stories- so the idea that we are trying to push some ideolaogy on the countries immigrants gone to doesn't make sense. Its an argument rooted deep in ignorance.

Ibanez
29-09-2012, 14:40
L.I.M

Definitely no argument there....

Lost in moscow
29-09-2012, 14:41
Many immigrants have similar stories- so the idea that we are trying to push some ideolaogy on the countries immigrants gone to doesn't make sense. Its an argument rooted deep in ignorance.

So your saying its not happening and it isn't creating any tension? Thats a great argument. But reread my post carefully. You seemed to have missed my point completely.



Me mum fled Pakistan in 1974 to the UK days after marriage and only returned in 1984 cos she was carrying me. Why did she leave Pakistan in the first place? Cos Ahmadi girls was getting abducted, raped, killed, and in many other cases forced to marry people from the dominant community.

All because of that ideology...

Tony P
29-09-2012, 14:51
I like immigrants,

But couldn't eat a whole one....

Ibanez
29-09-2012, 15:02
Now here's a gutsy gal...5 mins but worth watching.....

Al-Jazeera Wafa Sultan discussion on Muslim belief and clash of civilizations. - YouTube

peppermintpaddy
29-09-2012, 15:38
The Chinese are hardworking and only cause problems amongst themselves (Triads etc), but that is a cultural issue - the Indians are the same.

Of course there are problems in Europe from immigrants which are exasperated by the fact that the Politicians are too PC to control their demands, but this is not always to do with religion.

As for grooming of girls, this is not just confined to the Pakistani Muslim community - I think you'll find that the majority of pedophiles and human traffickers etc are not Muslim, and most are white faces of varying 'religions' and nationalities.

another apology for the religion of peace eh tolko?

These are organized paedophile gangs of Muslim origin...not some poor girl's bad uncle....

Nobbynumbnuts
29-09-2012, 15:56
another apology for the religion of peace eh tolko?

These are organized paedophile gangs of Muslim origin...not some poor girl's bad uncle....

Paddy, you have to admit, that Pedophilia and trafficking gangs are not confined to the Muslim community.

How do you think the people of Cambodia and Thailand feel towards westerners who flock there to pray on kids?

It's a problem within all races. It's a human condition.

Ibanez
29-09-2012, 16:16
Paddy, you have to admit, that Pedophilia and trafficking gangs are not confined to the Muslim community.

How do you think the people of Cambodia and Thailand feel towards westerners who flock there to pray on kids?

It's a problem within all races. It's a human condition.

Yup Nobby, I for one agree with you...happens all the time.

But you're speaking about sex tourism, in the case of Thailand and Cambodia, not people who have sought a better life in these countries/applied for refugee status or permanent citizenship and then turn around and get their jollies off...

Ibanez
29-09-2012, 16:18
Not to condone sex tourism...any form of exploitation against any sector of the population is abominable...

Nobbynumbnuts
29-09-2012, 16:32
Yup Nobby, I for one agree with you...happens all the time.

But you're speaking about sex tourism, in the case of Thailand and Cambodia, not people who have sought a better life in these countries/applied for refugee status or permanent citizenship and then turn around and get their jollies off...

A lot of what goes on is more than sex tourism.
Thailand and Cambodia are full of expats who are living there as residents. Okay they haven't applied for refugee status and many don't qualify for resident status but there are many perverts who reside full time. It's easy to do without a resident permit.

Ibanez
29-09-2012, 16:44
True, as we've seen those arrested in the past...

Nobbynumbnuts
29-09-2012, 16:59
True, as we've seen those arrested in the past...

Like Garry Glitter, who's now trying to get a visa for the states...................................he wants to go to Tampa with the kids! ;)


(thought i'd inject a little humour into an otherwise serious subject)

Jas
29-09-2012, 17:03
Like Garry Glitter, who's now trying to get a visa for the states...................................he wants to go to Tampa with the kids! ;)


(thought i'd inject a little humour into an otherwise serious subject)

He's white. C what I mean....

Jas
29-09-2012, 17:04
Yup Nobby, I for one agree with you...happens all the time.

But you're speaking about sex tourism, in the case of Thailand and Cambodia, not people who have sought a better life in these countries/applied for refugee status or permanent citizenship and then turn around and get their jollies off...


So why is no one blaming the west per se the way they wud if it was Muslim immigrants?

Ibanez
29-09-2012, 17:09
So why is no one blaming the west per se the way they wud if it was Muslim immigrants?

Jas, there IS blame, but nowadays - due to the predominance - it all goes on Muslm immigrants...more high profile.

Nobbynumbnuts
29-09-2012, 17:14
So why is no one blaming the west per se the way they wud if it was Muslim immigrants?

Jas, if you speak to people in S.E. Asia you will hear a lot of negatives regarding westerners in their countries. Of course not all are undesirables and western tourists and residents bring a lot of moneyand opportunities to these places. But like Muslims in the west, a few bad people bring a bad reputation to all.

Jas
29-09-2012, 17:17
:queen:

Nobbynumbnuts
29-09-2012, 17:20
jasisfun.jpg

Jas, she looks cute. Is that you?

Jas
29-09-2012, 17:22
Jas, she looks cute. Is that you?

I hope so.

TolkoRaz
29-09-2012, 17:26
another apology for the religion of peace eh tolko?

These are organized paedophile gangs of Muslim origin...not some poor girl's bad uncle....

How was what I wrote an apology? I was simply stating that all nationalities and 'religions' are involved in such heinous crimes and activities, and that it is not confined to Pakistani Muslims.

Please remember that not all Muslims should be tarred with the brush which you so often wave around - such generalisations are unhelpful and inaccurate.

Nobbynumbnuts
29-09-2012, 17:27
I hope so.

That was a quick glimpse. You little tease you! ;)

Jas
29-09-2012, 17:29
That was a quick glimpse. You little tease you! ;)

Wait until I really start......

Huh just jokin'. Me mum cud be reading this stuff.

Jas
29-09-2012, 17:30
Please remember that not all Muslims should be tarred with the brush which you so often wave around - such generalisations are unhelpful and inaccurate.

Exactly what I was telling also. How come when its Muslims the tar brush always comes out though?

TolkoRaz
29-09-2012, 17:35
I am 100% sure that if Paddy did some research, he would quickly discover that the majority of child prostitution etc in the UK has nothing to do with Muslims, Pakistani or other.

And, that is not an apology to Islam, its a fact.

Where he is correct is that they did 'groom' the very vulnerable girls in a systematic manner, but they represent a very small part of the Pakistani community. Therefore, their actions should not reflect badly on the rest of their community.

rusmeister
29-09-2012, 17:37
Rusmeister, I use that term loosely given that they have become embedded in the new country but many are still brought up and follow their heritage & culture etc as if they are still living in their previous country.

The expression, 'When in Rome do as the Romans do' is very apt, but quite often the immigrants expect to have all their ways of life accommodated without being sensitive to the host country's way of life, customs etc - that is what causes the clash and current disquiet being seen across Europe.

I think a lot of it is about attitude. The Poles have flooded Western Europe, but they have gone there to earn money, keep out of trouble, work hard etc - I have not heard anything but praise for the Poles, their work ethic and how they have integrated with a smile and no demands.
Hey, Tolko,
I agree but I think the attitude that one need not assimilate to be a very new one, encouraged by the modern form of multicultural pluralism that tells them they need not assimilate.

Nobbynumbnuts
29-09-2012, 17:38
Wait until I really start......

Huh just jokin'. Me mum cud be reading this stuff.

Your Mum's a member of Expat.ru!!?? :eek:

I'm going to need protection! :ninja:

rusmeister
29-09-2012, 17:40
No Rus, this is nonesense cos the statistics show that immigration creates jobs through the effect it has on the economy. Chesterton (was he a president or what?) was talking before a minimum wage came in so immigration can't lower wages anyhow. Immigration does benefit the ordinary man cos it improves his services, his culture, his right to marry also whoeever he wants. It means he lives in a liberal society that also protects his rights.
Hi Jas,
I don't blame you for not knowing who he was, but if you don't know anything about him you can't know when he said what and what existed at the time he said it.
You see one side of immigration, and a rosy one it is. I see it a little more soberly, and I am about as multicultural for an adult that started as a monolingual white boy as one can become.

Nobbynumbnuts
29-09-2012, 17:40
Hey, Tolko,
I agree but I think the attitude that one need not assimilate to be a very new one, encouraged by the modern form of multicultural pluralism that tells them they need not assimilate.

rusmeister, is that some secret code you're speaking in? ;)

Ibanez
29-09-2012, 17:44
:queen:

Nice!!!

Jas
29-09-2012, 17:52
Hi Jas,
I don't blame you for not knowing who he was, but if you don't know anything about him you can't know when he said what and what existed at the time he said it.
You see one side of immigration, and a rosy one it is. I see it a little more soberly, and I am about as multicultural for an adult that started as a monolingual white boy as one can become.

Rus, I am for realistic and responsible debate about immigration. I got no illusions about problems within our communities. However, if the choice I get is a Jihadi's knife or a fascist bullet in the head- what kind of choice is that?
I am saying that I hate the way debate is just polarized so quickly.

natlee
29-09-2012, 18:36
Paddy, I think it is quite ironic when you think 'half' of Ireland emigrated to the US of A, Australia or some other land ;)

Immigration is a good thing, but it must be robustly controlled and those arriving in the new land should not anticipate in being able to accommodate their lifestyle, culture or customs or force them upon the country, or local community - they must remember that they are 'guests'.

Agreed.


The main problem comes when they become 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants so they believe that they are French, German or British etc and that is when problems arise. ???

cadiguzel
29-09-2012, 18:42
Racism is the worst behavior of mankind. Religion and skin colour (ethnicity) are just three (four) meaningless words for me.

natlee
29-09-2012, 18:46
Rusmeister, I use that term loosely given that they have become embedded in the new country but many are still brought up and follow their heritage & culture etc as if they are still living in their previous country.

The expression, 'When in Rome do as the Romans do' is very apt, but quite often the immigrants expect to have all their ways of life accommodated without being sensitive to the host country's way of life, customs etc - that is what causes the clash and current disquiet being seen across Europe.

I think a lot of it is about attitude. The Poles have flooded Western Europe, but they have gone there to earn money, keep out of trouble, work hard etc - I have not heard anything but praise for the Poles, their work ethic and how they have integrated with a smile and no demands. Okkk apology accepted ;)

peppermintpaddy
29-09-2012, 18:46
A lot of what goes on is more than sex tourism.
Thailand and Cambodia are full of expats who are living there as residents. Okay they haven't applied for refugee status and many don't qualify for resident status but there are many perverts who reside full time. It's easy to do without a resident permit.

Youre going to Cambodia this year aintcha Nobby? Ko rong isnt it?

Does that make you a sex tourist /paedo also?

Gangs of Muslim paedos are preying on young white girls in England-Fact.
Even the judge said their Religion played a part in their targeting the girls....

Jas ,you seem to be blaming the girls in your post....it seems they were asking for it ,staying out so late.....blame the victims eh rather than look at your own community and its paedo sub-culture....

natlee
29-09-2012, 18:50
Oh for Christ's sake, peppermintpaddy, enough! Yes there's a bunch of Muslims (and plenty others) who deserve to be cut up into bits and burned (oops), we all know that, but are you seriously saying they're ALL the same? I mean, seriously? No other evil beings in the world? Come on!

robertmf
29-09-2012, 18:55
The main problem comes when they become 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants so they believe that they are French, German or British etc and that is when problems arise.



???


Once the kids enter public school, "peer pressure" quickly brings them all together - no matter what the 'old country' parents want.

TolkoRaz
29-09-2012, 19:00
Not exactly, they do tend to 'ghettoise' themselves, so you have small immigrant communities living among themselves and going to the local school which could quite often be predominantly supporting the local immigrant community.

I am sure you have heard of Londonstan? ;)

robertmf
29-09-2012, 19:10
Not exactly, they do tend to 'ghettoise' themselves, so you have small immigrant communities living among themselves and going to the local school which could quite often be predominantly supporting the local immigrant community.

I am sure you have heard of Londonstan? ;)

Oops. I forgot to quality "in America". Here, immigrants tend not to cluster in tenements (Euro ghetto) over generations. Historically, the 1st native born generation tends to move on (пошли).

Areas will have diaspora ethnic concentrations; esp. of our major immigrant groups like Italians, Germans, Jews, Nordics (in upper Midwest), China towns, even Russians and Texans :bong:

Nobbynumbnuts
29-09-2012, 19:16
Youre going to Cambodia this year aintcha Nobby? Ko rong isnt it?

Does that make you a sex tourist /paedo also?

Gangs of Muslim paedos are preying on young white girls in England-Fact.
Even the judge said their Religion played a part in their targeting the girls....

Jas ,you seem to be blaming the girls in your post....it seems they were asking for it ,staying out so late.....blame the victims eh rather than look at your own community and its paedo sub-culture....

Paddy, you're beginning to sound like a fanatic yourself.

Definition of a fanatic: Someone who will never change their mind and someone who will never change the subject--Winston Churchill 😉

Shooters
29-09-2012, 19:17
Not exactly, they do tend to 'ghettoise' themselves, so you have small immigrant communities living among themselves and going to the local school which could quite often be predominantly supporting the local immigrant community.


A bit like americans in Moscow?

robertmf
29-09-2012, 19:23
A bit like americans in Moscow?

Nothing like the old Soviet days ;) There is much more Russian language now along with no cold war.

I do think there is a difference between contract teachers and the permanent resident immigrants in community interactions.

rusmeister
29-09-2012, 19:52
Rus, I am for realistic and responsible debate about immigration. I got no illusions about problems within our communities. However, if the choice I get is a Jihadi's knife or a fascist bullet in the head- what kind of choice is that?
I am saying that I hate the way debate is just polarized so quickly.

You seem to have started it by firmly establishing a pole of the joys of immigration and its benefits to native cultures...

I looked for the grim dichotomy - choice - you describe in people's responses, hut haven't found it.

TolkoRaz
29-09-2012, 20:00
Oops. I forgot to quality "in America". Here, immigrants tend not to cluster in tenements (Euro ghetto) over generations. Historically, the 1st native born generation tends to move on (пошли).

Areas will have diaspora ethnic concentrations; esp. of our major immigrant groups like Italians, Germans, Jews, Nordics (in upper Midwest), China towns, even Russians and Texans :bong:




Quite by chance, have a look at this article about Iranians in Los Angeles! ;)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19751370

TolkoRaz
29-09-2012, 20:01
A bit like americans in Moscow?

I would not complain - your bar gets lots of custom from Expats! ;)

TolkoRaz
29-09-2012, 20:02
Nothing like the old Soviet days ;) There is much more Russian language now along with no cold war.

I do think there is a difference between contract teachers and the permanent resident immigrants in community interactions.


I have an original one of those signs, but it looks better than that and it comes with provenance! ;)

peppermintpaddy
30-09-2012, 01:04
Oh for Christ's sake, peppermintpaddy, enough! Yes there's a bunch of Muslims (and plenty others) who deserve to be cut up into bits and burned (oops), we all know that, but are you seriously saying they're ALL the same? I mean, seriously? No other evil beings in the world? Come on!

Where have I ever said that all Muslims are the same Natlee? I'm just pointing out there are gangs of muslim paedos preying on young white christian girls in the UK.Maybe you'd feel as strongly as I do if it was happening where you lived. This thread is about the pros and cons of immigration.....just highlighting a con...simples.


Paddy, you're beginning to sound like a fanatic yourself.

Definition of a fanatic: Someone who will never change their mind and someone who will never change the subject--Winston Churchill ��

Nice quote Nobby....you didnt answer the question tho' didya?

Tony P
30-09-2012, 01:24
I got no illusions about problems within our communities.

There you have it, first hand.
Communities. Plural.

My idea of immigration involves integration, not isolation.

More vocal immigrants keep banging on about 'multi-cultural society' (singular). Where does that fit in?

Many immigrants, and their next generation, consistently fail to identify themselves as part of their new chosen country and its peoples by keeping referring to themselves and considering themselves as different to the host peoples.

What hope?

robertmf
30-09-2012, 01:33
I have an original one of those signs, but it looks better than that and it comes with provenance! ;)

Did anyone besides you go over The Wall West -> East :question:

:Loco:

Shooters
30-09-2012, 01:36
I would not complain - your bar gets lots of custom from Expats! ;)

I didn't complain, just asked :)

Sure we welcome expats at Shooters, but they don't arrive like winners in a battle field :))

BTW WHO are the 6 English-speaking expats who arrived at Shooters at 8PM and left at midnight after 32 Jack Daniel's and 27 tekila sunrise? I would like they teach me how to support such a quantity of booze and being able to climb the steps to go out )))

TolkoRaz
30-09-2012, 01:42
Did anyone besides you go over The Wall West -> East :question:

:Loco:



I went both ways - part of my job in those days was to enter more than once!

Tuda i obratno!

Sounds like a s*x game! ;)

And, yes, there were lots of 'officials' on 'accredited missions' who went back and forth on all sorts of business! ;)

TolkoRaz
30-09-2012, 01:50
I have tried to upload some interesting photos from my very private collection, but for some reason the site will not allow me to upload.

I can upload using a web URL, but as they are my own photos, I can't share! :(

robertmf
30-09-2012, 01:56
I have tried to upload some interesting photos from my very private collection, but for some reason the site will not allow me to upload.

I can upload using a web URL, but as they are my own photos, I can't share! :(


Which site. Do you mean expat.ru won't allow the upload ...or... the website where the photos are stored will not allow you access for download to your home computer :question:

For expat.ru :


Regular .jpg, .gif. or .png format :question:
Are they too big|immense :question: ( [Manage Attachments] upload formats/sizes)

TolkoRaz
30-09-2012, 01:59
Nope, this site.

I know how to do it, the size and format is OK, but they won't upload - the 'arrow' just keeps revolving but nothing actually uploads!

And, sometimes, it confirms that a photo has 100% uploaded, but it hasn't! :confused:

robertmf
30-09-2012, 02:02
Nope, this site.

I know how to do it, the size and format is OK, but they won't upload - the 'arrow' just keeps revolving but nothing actually uploads!

And, sometimes, it confirms that a photo has 100% uploaded, but it hasn't! :confused:

Beats me, then. When I get a 'hang' like that, I press [ESC] and then "play it again, Sam".

RichardB
30-09-2012, 02:04
I have tried to upload some interesting photos from my very private collection, but for some reason the site will not allow me to upload.

I can upload using a web URL, but as they are my own photos, I can't share! :(

We're not in bardak yet :P

TolkoRaz
30-09-2012, 02:09
LOL! :) I have some of those as well! If some of those East German courting couples only knew that I had captured them on film in the dead of night, pitch black, when they did not even know we were nearby in an OP! LOL! :D

TolkoRaz
30-09-2012, 02:10
Beats me, then. When I get a 'hang' like that, I press [ESC] and then "play it again, Sam".



Shall I scream victimisation and discrimination? ;)

robertmf
30-09-2012, 02:13
Shall I scream victimisation and discrimination? ;)

Nah ... just PM *ezik* :)

-.-..-..

ezik
30-09-2012, 03:06
I'm at the dacha, dudes and dudettes.
Half an acre of forest at my disposal: happy daughter, shashlik, labrador running around, tree of us burning leaves.

Ready for any PM, but I'll not action anything with even a hint of stress, I have some burning to to FFS!


Nah ... just PM *ezik* :)

-.-..-..

Tony P
30-09-2012, 03:17
I'm at the dacha, dudes and dudettes.
Half an acre of forest at my disposal: happy daughter, shashlik, labrador running around, tree of us burning leaves.

Perfect example of how to be an immigrant - integration into local ways and lifestyle.

Enjoy.

martpark
30-09-2012, 04:17
There you have it, first hand.
Communities. Plural.

My idea of immigration involves integration, not isolation.

More vocal immigrants keep banging on about 'multi-cultural society' (singular). Where does that fit in?

Many immigrants, and their next generation, consistently fail to identify themselves as part of their new chosen country and its peoples by keeping referring to themselves and considering themselves as different to the host peoples.

What hope?

And you speak fluent Russian and don't hang out with expats in Moscow?

Tony P
30-09-2012, 04:58
And you speak fluent Russian and don't hang out with expats in Moscow?

Generally no, to both!

I'm not at all fluent. I do find it hard trying to learn a new language at my age - but I try.

In Moscow, I go to Booze Bub one evening a month or less where I chat with all, perhaps 30-40% being Russians. I also meet one US friend elsewhere about as frequently. Otherwise, apart from visitors, my contact is entirely Russian - and largely non-English speaking Russians, other than my RUS partner.

During summer, when not motorcycling in distant, remote areas of Russia, I spend weeks continuously at our dacha where, among the 90 odd houses, only one person speaks a little English.

I came to live here with my Partner who needs to be nearer her family. I try to be part of that Russian family, integrate around our environment and pick up and conform to their culture and lifestyle as much as possible - except the driving style and the spitting.

My time and posts on these threads, and the other expat forums site, are predominantly passing on information to hopefully help others also get along better here.

Maybe I'm not an ideal immigrant. But I am not trying to change the people and their attitudes etc to be a replica of where I came from - except for including growing some imported Runner Bean seeds at the dacha, something no-one there had seen before - and enjoyed sharing!

sashadidi
30-09-2012, 08:36
Tony, sounds like you are doing just great and really like Russia. and as you say as you get older its hard to learn s new language :respect:

Jas
30-09-2012, 09:05
Like me mum, she can't speak English really.... but she does understand it to some extent. I speak to her in English- she replies in Urdu- like that.

NotMe
30-09-2012, 09:22
Perfect example of how to be an immigrant - integration into local ways and lifestyle.

Enjoy.


Agree 100%. :)

I suppose... I believe.... I would say...

To sum up: Russia needs more eziks like that! :respect:

Judge
30-09-2012, 09:57
I'm at the dacha, dudes and dudettes.
Half an acre of forest at my disposal: happy daughter, shashlik, labrador running around, tree of us burning leaves.

Ready for any PM, but I'll not action anything with even a hint of stress, I have some burning to to FFS!

Don't forget to look out for hedgehogs, they like to curl up in piles of leaves to nest..

hedgehog shashliki:eek:

Jas
30-09-2012, 10:03
Immigration makes countries stronger. How do I know this? Cos the Americas was both isolated from the rest of the world since the end of the ice age.
So?
So this meant they were cut off from technology advances and even they had no immunity and hadn't seen a horse even! The result was that they was trashed very easily by the Spaniards and 95% of the population was lost.
That's isolationism for u!

martpark
30-09-2012, 22:49
Generally no, to both!

I'm not at all fluent. I do find it hard trying to learn a new language at my age - but I try.

In Moscow, I go to Booze Bub one evening a month or less where I chat with all, perhaps 30-40% being Russians. I also meet one US friend elsewhere about as frequently. Otherwise, apart from visitors, my contact is entirely Russian - and largely non-English speaking Russians, other than my RUS partner.

During summer, when not motorcycling in distant, remote areas of Russia, I spend weeks continuously at our dacha where, among the 90 odd houses, only one person speaks a little English.

I came to live here with my Partner who needs to be nearer her family. I try to be part of that Russian family, integrate around our environment and pick up and conform to their culture and lifestyle as much as possible - except the driving style and the spitting.

My time and posts on these threads, and the other expat forums site, are predominantly passing on information to hopefully help others also get along better here.

Maybe I'm not an ideal immigrant. But I am not trying to change the people and their attitudes etc to be a replica of where I came from - except for including growing some imported Runner Bean seeds at the dacha, something no-one there had seen before - and enjoyed sharing!

A similar story to yours can be found in many places in Britain. People come from all around, most from Britain's former colonies, and rely on those around them to give them support. The majority integrate and are no problem. Britain has changed immeasurably for the good, ie food, music, sport, business because of immigration. Not everyone is pleased and some become bitter. Of course, racist attitudes in Britain don't help the situation and cause more tension/hatred without any merit whatsoever.

rusmeister
01-10-2012, 03:50
A similar story to yours can be found in many places in Britain. People come from all around, most from Britain's former colonies, and rely on those around them to give them support. The majority integrate and are no problem. Britain has changed immeasurably for the good, ie food, music, sport, business because of immigration. Not everyone is pleased and some become bitter. Of course, racist attitudes in Britain don't help the situation and cause more tension/hatred without any merit whatsoever.
Obviously some things you see as good they see as bad; more accurately, they see different aspects of those things than you do (rightly or wrongly, fairly or not)

martpark
01-10-2012, 09:39
Obviously some things you see as good they see as bad; more accurately, they see different aspects of those things than you do (rightly or wrongly, fairly or not)

You mean people have differences?

Jas
01-10-2012, 09:52
Basically, a Europe without immigrants in unthinkable as it flies in the face of reality. So get used it. We're here cos this is our home.

Shooters
01-10-2012, 13:57
Basically, a Europe without immigrants in unthinkable as it flies in the face of reality. So get used it. We're here cos this is our home.



"We're here cos this is our home."

Who is WE?
Where is HERE?

Shooters
01-10-2012, 13:59
Perfect example of how to be an immigrant - integration into local ways and lifestyle.

Enjoy.

not like those ones....
http://forum.expat.ru/forum/showthread.php?p=1066628&posted=1#post1066628

Jas
01-10-2012, 14:24
"We're here cos this is our home."

Who is WE?
Where is HERE?

Us= all second generation immigrants of non european hertiage.

Here= all of Europe.

Simple enough.

Shooters
01-10-2012, 14:41
Us= all second generation immigrants of non european hertiage.

Here= all of Europe.

Simple enough.


I wanted to have confirmation as it seemed completely illogical!

So for you, the sons (and daughters) of immigrants, are AT HOME in their new country, in Europe? No matter if they are integrated in the social system, if they respect the usages of these european countries etc? Well after all, you probably think that europeans have to change to welcome those immigrants that bring soooooo much positive, hey!

Allow me to not share your point of view :)
Not at all!

I could accept it for european immigrants, as they share the same culture, live in the same way, and so instinctivey respect others. For immigrants from southern countries... LOL!

Oh but ok, I will stop here, no need after all to speak with... with you! BTW why don't you emigrate to europe? look! They will give you free healthcare, money every month, free housing, and even free advocate to fight the racist police that will MAYBE want to send you back home :) Seems to be a good deal!

And at your wedding, you will even be allowed to use guns to shoot in the street, as a sign of hapiness, it is now very popular in "new france" :)

Have a good day :)