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Bels
27-10-2007, 22:53
All second language speaker speakers are welcome to join in this thread. To practice the English language and to ask any questions they like.

There are about 10 teachers here who have introduced themselves on this folder and there are definately more available on this forum.

You are welcome to ask whatever questions you like , or may I suggest that you write an article about any topic you are interested in .

When this article has been entered here I assume that there will be many teachers who can correct any errors that you have written and explain why the errors occurred.

Of course this assistance from the teachers is free and voluntary.

Another service I would like to offer to this thread is that if you do need a teacher in your area I would b pleased to assist you . Teachers are more likely to respond if you are a student in their area. And I would like to provide this service. Let us see what happens. PM me if you need a teacher in your area. All of this work is voluntary. No commission is charged, so no middle man costs.

SalTheReturn
27-10-2007, 23:01
All second language speaker speakers are welcome to join in this thread. To practice the English language and ask any questions they like.

There are about 10 teachers here who have untroduced themselves on this folder and there are dsfinately more available on this forum.

You are welcome to ask whatever questions you like , or may I suggest that you write an article about any topic you are interested in .

When this article has been entered here I assume that there will be many teachers who can correct any errors that you have written and explain why the errors occurred.

Of course this assistance from the teachers is free and voluntary.

Another service I would like to offer this thread is that if you do need a teacher in your area I would b pleased to assist you . Teachers are more likely to respond if you are a student in their area. And I would like to provide this service. Let us see what happens. PM me if you need ateacher in your area. All of this work is voluntary. No commission, so no middle man costs.

i will go first, just give me a min

i know you do not speak italian but these translation cost me lots of money and then, when i showed it to an american friend of mine, she told me some points were not clear...:confused:

though she could understand all the article and its cut

SalTheReturn
27-10-2007, 23:05
Leave behind your biased suitcases filled with rational, order, and control. Open your minds to the concepts of exasperation, contrast, and conflict. Just for a moment, forget the notion of teeming violence, violence that forces human beings to pay for a simple taxi ride shorter than two kilometers with a check. Alas, forget Brazilians, the Brazilians we see in films, men with gaping muscles and women with exaggerated breasts. Historical mass immigration has created a place where no one is a tourist.

Before anything else, San Paolo’s geographical dimensions will astound you. San Paolo from up above on the regular airplane is not describable. San Paolo is not an area for which words have yet been coined. However, if it helps the reader (and please laugh about this), you fly over it for 40 minutes always expecting the airplane landing to be a second away. In a way, you run the risk of getting intimidated and relegating yourself to submission and passiveness. It is an alien vision that empties its viewer of every pretense and you find your hands trembling. Yet, this alien vision cannot help but to capture your interest and to serve as a challenge.

Twenty million people inhabit this piece of our planet in which glorious skyscrapers climb towards the gray sky filled with rage and pollution. Among these architectural elephants are also found precarious suburban refuges. If you come with the preconception of the Western metropolis with a city-center and outskirts, San Paolo is an experience with strong contours.

The streets spread out under your eyes finally reaching the eight gangways. You will be hard-pressed to count and see and understand. The effort that you make is difficult to endure. There is an unstoppable flux of cars and trucks that hopes to traverse an enormous territory, a territory without precedents for many of you.
If you happen to come to San Paolo in the summertime you will not be able to keep the window closed due to the suffocating heat nor will you be able to keep the window open due to the run off fumes that penetrate your nostrils. However, if you feel heroic (at least on vacation), and if your concept of travel is not the sterile transplantation of regular needs or the planned disregard of those needs, try to drive: it must be wonderful.

The diverse faces that compose this mosaic enrich the esthetic experience: Asians, Arabs, tons of Europeans. San Paolo encloses a trans-national society and embodies the charm produced by that trans-national society.
Your ethnicity will not be a source of tension whatsoever.
Millions of Italians came to San Paolo at the end of the nineteenth century and millions of Japanese immigrants made their entrance into San Paolo during the twentieth century. In the twenty-first century, Brazilians from the North East (the poorest area in all of Brazil) arrive in San Paolo every day in hopes of a better life. In fact, 50% of Brazil’s Gross National Product (GNP) is produced here and thirty of the country’s fifty most relevant industries are located here. In consequence, there is a strong middle class that is educated and numerous. The middle class loves and can spend money.
You will not fail to realize that liquid assets abound in San Paolo, often American greenbacks, because there is little confidence in the national currency.

The elegance of the most chic neighborhoods reach occidental perfection; a frame filled with a picture of trees and green space substitutes the squalor of cement. Palm trees are transplanted into the apartment courtyards and an image is projected, an image of wealth. The line between dearth and well-being is ratified with authoritarian violence. It is certainly not in the Brazilian mentality or that of Paulistanos (the word used for locals) to worry about hiding or not revealing this routine. In San Paolo, who has (everything) and who does not have is revealed without terminology. The difference is paraded. Analogously, you might think of those women of statuary beauty, icons of taste and sensuality, to whom Brazil has accustomed us.
Certainly, San Paolo is probably not the best place to immortalize in thought (and in flesh for the most audacious) such an image of beauty and sensuality. Welcome (word used by Brazilians themselves) to the city of silicone and drag queens, seemingly women even from just a few inches away.

The nightlife definitely does not disappoint. Simple boredom does not belong to a mammoth metropolis that coherently seeks with admirable effort unyielding hedonism. Only Tokyo and New York have as much to offer and San Paolo does not fail to match up. It is impossible not to know where to pass a night for there are hundreds of clubs, discothèques, and bars that animate the city until past dawn. Rather than finding a deserted restaurant, you find a restaurant with a line out the door. Even if you decide to go back home, there is still the risk of traffic that does not seem to calm down just because it is three in the morning.
If you are still in the mood to be dazzled, drive for two hours towards the coast where Paulistanos have their second homes. Saturday night, herds of young people fill the nightlife establishments. Cover charges can run as high as 20 euros, but you dance among inviting swimming pools and reprinted artwork.
Do not expect an undercurrent of samba: leave behind the samba and the recognized sublime tradition of Brazilian music (from Torquinho to ChicoBuarque, from DellaValle to Jobim) to those who use this stuff to delight the tourists.

The issue of art is interesting because it is employed to interrupt the banality of a country made up of huge apartment complexes and cement and therefore we admire the architectural masterpieces of Oscar Niemeyer (the architect who launched Brasilia) or we visit the galleries downtown that hold very respectable collections. I went to the exhibit on surrealists and a tribute exhibit to Chagall.
However, it is not these things that San Paolo can offer and for which the tourist must look. Not even the Japanese with their global tourism manage to cling to the itinerary of their planned trip. Planned trips end in San Paolo. Of course, they could take a photograph of all the research material and medical reports underway with which the city could open itself to the curious looker on.
Backpacking tourists that converge in Brazil during the high season do not stick to their original travel plans either. There are other beautiful ambitions that attract their desire of evasion and direct what they take in. The most common saying is “I landed in San Paolo and left the day after”. And if you are hard-headed and try to tell people that there is more than just cement and that you undoubtedly missed a part of the “real” Brazil, those people tend to shoot down your views.
It is only another big city if you think of it this way, without attention. It is also polluted and sad and gray and the people work for eleven hours a day. The natives are tense and pissed-off like in London and in Milan.
Luckily for them and for us, a Brazilian is not capable of not showing a smile.
We are far from the paradises of emotional involvement and superb hospitality that you may have presumed. Residents of Rio and Paulistanos are different echelons. They are found together only when we speak of urban degrade and violence, even if here in San Paolo the police still go into unsavory “establishments” that sprinkle the city. In Rio, such police involvement is unthinkable.

People discourage you from traveling alone, from using nocturnal forms of transportation, and from resisting if a group of punks demand your money. There is also prostitution, sometimes legal and sometimes not, that tends to make us perceive San Paolo as an enormous bordello. Whether in the center or in the outskirts, the spirit is unequivocal.
There is the electricity crisis and there are streetlights that go out unexpectedly and without warning and darkness comes over the city and there is the risk of climbing 23 floors of staircases because not even the elevators are working.

Sometimes you have to put aside that unattractive veil that can crush our purest sensations and great beauty.

There seems to exist a quirky battle between blind progress and unhealthy decadence. Who moves forward does not look backwards, he tears ahead with the classic security that money and power are solid barriers. He who acts this way must do so before the country of Brazil becomes another Argentina and even he will be clanging a pan and spoon or banging on closed shop doors. The effects would be even more devastating in Brazil for it is the key player in the game of South American interests. I do not want to imagine 150,000,000 people in dyer straights.

I wanted to give voice to the San Paolo I saw and the San Paolo I appreciated. I wanted to stimulate curiosity and interest in who has not yet been there, but hopefully has the opportunity to go visit this megalopolis that vibrates with its own modern and contradictory vitality. In San Paolo there is room for that which goes beyond music trends and the colors of Carnival, beyond the poverty and dearth of the streets.
San Paolo is a shock: there is what you expect and what they tell you of the Third World and its thousands of conflicts. There is what you rationally have difficulty making out once you actually go there: the energy of the numbers, the diversity, and the money that is radiated by San Paolo.

SalTheReturn
28-10-2007, 01:01
All second language speaker speakers are welcome to join in this thread. To practice the English language and ask any questions they like.

There are about 10 teachers here who have untroduced themselves on this folder and there are dsfinately more available on this forum.

You are welcome to ask whatever questions you like , or may I suggest that you write an article about any topic you are interested in .

When this article has been entered here I assume that there will be many teachers who can correct any errors that you have written and explain why the errors occurred.


Of course this assistance from the teachers is free and voluntary.

Another service I would like to offer this thread is that if you do need a teacher in your area I would b pleased to assist you . Teachers are more likely to respond if you are a student in their area. And I would like to provide this service. Let us see what happens. PM me if you need ateacher in your area. All of this work is voluntary. No commission, so no middle man costs.

and btw all native speakers are invited to spell correctly the title of threads:shhhhhh::thumbsup:

AndreyS
28-10-2007, 02:12
So what, Bels, you got it! (see a text above) :-))) (sorry, I am joking)

Clean32
28-10-2007, 08:23
another thread fu*ked up by Sal the village idiot

SalTheReturn
28-10-2007, 10:54
So what, Bels, you got it! (see a text above) :-))) (sorry, I am joking)

whatever bels ask for me it is an order:rasta:

SalTheReturn
28-10-2007, 10:55
another thread fu*ked up by Sal the village idiot

Could you tecnically prove your point so that i leave the website? like if you were explaining mathematics

you take care

PS. finally you understood that it is ok to swear but you gotta use asterics!!!
I am impressed by your improvements during the last weeks:yikes:

Bels
28-10-2007, 13:38
i will go first, just give me a min

i know you do not speak italian but these translation cost me lots of money and then, when i showed it to an american friend of mine, she told me some points were not clear...:confused:

though she could understand all the article and its cut

You are welcome to criticise all posts here Sal, including those from native speakers. But please be precise and constructive when you do. It's no good saying something is wrong when you don't say what it is.

Bels
28-10-2007, 13:46
and btw all native speakers are invited to spell correctly the title of threads:shhhhhh::thumbsup:

Thanks for pointing it out Sal. Hopefully you have seen me type second many times correctly and that will accept this as a typing error.

Bels
28-10-2007, 13:51
whatever bels ask for me it is an order:rasta:

CORRECTION: Whatever! bels asked for me, and it's an order.

Yes, I asked him to contribute. He's my guest and you could say I ordered him.

Bels
28-10-2007, 13:57
Leave behind your biased suitcases filled with rational, order, and control. Open your minds to the concepts of exasperation, contrast, and conflict. Just for a moment, forget the notion of teeming violence, violence that forces human beings to pay for a simple taxi ride shorter than two kilometers with a check. Alas, forget Brazilians, the Brazilians we see in films, men with gaping muscles and women with exaggerated breasts. Historical mass immigration has created a place where no one is a tourist.

Before anything else, San Paolo’s geographical dimensions will astound you. San Paolo from up above on the regular airplane is not describable. San Paolo is not an area for which words have yet been coined. However, if it helps the reader (and please laugh about this), you fly over it for 40 minutes always expecting the airplane landing to be a second away. In a way, you run the risk of getting intimidated and relegating yourself to submission and passiveness. It is an alien vision that empties its viewer of every pretense and you find your hands trembling. Yet, this alien vision cannot help but to capture your interest and to serve as a challenge.

Twenty million people inhabit this piece of our planet in which glorious skyscrapers climb towards the gray sky filled with rage and pollution. Among these architectural elephants are also found precarious suburban refuges. If you come with the preconception of the Western metropolis with a city-center and outskirts, San Paolo is an experience with strong contours.

The streets spread out under your eyes finally reaching the eight gangways. You will be hard-pressed to count and see and understand. The effort that you make is difficult to endure. There is an unstoppable flux of cars and trucks that hopes to traverse an enormous territory, a territory without precedents for many of you.
If you happen to come to San Paolo in the summertime you will not be able to keep the window closed due to the suffocating heat nor will you be able to keep the window open due to the run off fumes that penetrate your nostrils. However, if you feel heroic (at least on vacation), and if your concept of travel is not the sterile transplantation of regular needs or the planned disregard of those needs, try to drive: it must be wonderful.

The diverse faces that compose this mosaic enrich the esthetic experience: Asians, Arabs, tons of Europeans. San Paolo encloses a trans-national society and embodies the charm produced by that trans-national society.
Your ethnicity will not be a source of tension whatsoever.
Millions of Italians came to San Paolo at the end of the nineteenth century and millions of Japanese immigrants made their entrance into San Paolo during the twentieth century. In the twenty-first century, Brazilians from the North East (the poorest area in all of Brazil) arrive in San Paolo every day in hopes of a better life. In fact, 50% of Brazil’s Gross National Product (GNP) is produced here and thirty of the country’s fifty most relevant industries are located here. In consequence, there is a strong middle class that is educated and numerous. The middle class loves and can spend money.
You will not fail to realize that liquid assets abound in San Paolo, often American greenbacks, because there is little confidence in the national currency.

The elegance of the most chic neighborhoods reach occidental perfection; a frame filled with a picture of trees and green space substitutes the squalor of cement. Palm trees are transplanted into the apartment courtyards and an image is projected, an image of wealth. The line between dearth and well-being is ratified with authoritarian violence. It is certainly not in the Brazilian mentality or that of Paulistanos (the word used for locals) to worry about hiding or not revealing this routine. In San Paolo, who has (everything) and who does not have is revealed without terminology. The difference is paraded. Analogously, you might think of those women of statuary beauty, icons of taste and sensuality, to whom Brazil has accustomed us.
Certainly, San Paolo is probably not the best place to immortalize in thought (and in flesh for the most audacious) such an image of beauty and sensuality. Welcome (word used by Brazilians themselves) to the city of silicone and drag queens, seemingly women even from just a few inches away.

The nightlife definitely does not disappoint. Simple boredom does not belong to a mammoth metropolis that coherently seeks with admirable effort unyielding hedonism. Only Tokyo and New York have as much to offer and San Paolo does not fail to match up. It is impossible not to know where to pass a night for there are hundreds of clubs, discothèques, and bars that animate the city until past dawn. Rather than finding a deserted restaurant, you find a restaurant with a line out the door. Even if you decide to go back home, there is still the risk of traffic that does not seem to calm down just because it is three in the morning.
If you are still in the mood to be dazzled, drive for two hours towards the coast where Paulistanos have their second homes. Saturday night, herds of young people fill the nightlife establishments. Cover charges can run as high as 20 euros, but you dance among inviting swimming pools and reprinted artwork.
Do not expect an undercurrent of samba: leave behind the samba and the recognized sublime tradition of Brazilian music (from Torquinho to ChicoBuarque, from DellaValle to Jobim) to those who use this stuff to delight the tourists.

The issue of art is interesting because it is employed to interrupt the banality of a country made up of huge apartment complexes and cement and therefore we admire the architectural masterpieces of Oscar Niemeyer (the architect who launched Brasilia) or we visit the galleries downtown that hold very respectable collections. I went to the exhibit on surrealists and a tribute exhibit to Chagall.
However, it is not these things that San Paolo can offer and for which the tourist must look. Not even the Japanese with their global tourism manage to cling to the itinerary of their planned trip. Planned trips end in San Paolo. Of course, they could take a photograph of all the research material and medical reports underway with which the city could open itself to the curious looker on.
Backpacking tourists that converge in Brazil during the high season do not stick to their original travel plans either. There are other beautiful ambitions that attract their desire of evasion and direct what they take in. The most common saying is “I landed in San Paolo and left the day after”. And if you are hard-headed and try to tell people that there is more than just cement and that you undoubtedly missed a part of the “real” Brazil, those people tend to shoot down your views.
It is only another big city if you think of it this way, without attention. It is also polluted and sad and gray and the people work for eleven hours a day. The natives are tense and pissed-off like in London and in Milan.
Luckily for them and for us, a Brazilian is not capable of not showing a smile.
We are far from the paradises of emotional involvement and superb hospitality that you may have presumed. Residents of Rio and Paulistanos are different echelons. They are found together only when we speak of urban degrade and violence, even if here in San Paolo the police still go into unsavory “establishments” that sprinkle the city. In Rio, such police involvement is unthinkable.

People discourage you from traveling alone, from using nocturnal forms of transportation, and from resisting if a group of punks demand your money. There is also prostitution, sometimes legal and sometimes not, that tends to make us perceive San Paolo as an enormous bordello. Whether in the center or in the outskirts, the spirit is unequivocal.
There is the electricity crisis and there are streetlights that go out unexpectedly and without warning and darkness comes over the city and there is the risk of climbing 23 floors of staircases because not even the elevators are working.

Sometimes you have to put aside that unattractive veil that can crush our purest sensations and great beauty.

There seems to exist a quirky battle between blind progress and unhealthy decadence. Who moves forward does not look backwards, he tears ahead with the classic security that money and power are solid barriers. He who acts this way must do so before the country of Brazil becomes another Argentina and even he will be clanging a pan and spoon or banging on closed shop doors. The effects would be even more devastating in Brazil for it is the key player in the game of South American interests. I do not want to imagine 150,000,000 people in dyer straights.

I wanted to give voice to the San Paolo I saw and the San Paolo I appreciated. I wanted to stimulate curiosity and interest in who has not yet been there, but hopefully has the opportunity to go visit this megalopolis that vibrates with its own modern and contradictory vitality. In San Paolo there is room for that which goes beyond music trends and the colors of Carnival, beyond the poverty and dearth of the streets.
San Paolo is a shock: there is what you expect and what they tell you of the Third World and its thousands of conflicts. There is what you rationally have difficulty making out once you actually go there: the energy of the numbers, the diversity, and the money that is radiated by San Paolo.

Where did you get this Sal? From a foreign article which was then translated by a computer?

SalTheReturn
28-10-2007, 15:01
Where did you get this Sal? From a foreign article which was then translated by a computer?

no i wrote it in italian and then had it translated by an agency...why you ask?

Bels
28-10-2007, 15:07
no i wrote it in italian and then had it translated by an agency...why you ask?

Because it's dreadful. I think the translator simply had it translated by a computer and then edited it a little.

Bels
28-10-2007, 15:12
no i wrote it in italian and then had it translated by an agency...why you ask?

You would have been better off translating it yourself, and then posting it here. The proof-reading would have been a lot less work than this current one.

SalTheReturn
28-10-2007, 19:02
You would have been better off translating it yourself, and then posting it here. The proof-reading would have been a lot less work than this current one.

do not worry i will give you all the time you need...where are your 10 teachers???

Bels
28-10-2007, 19:10
do not worry i will give you all the time you need...where are your 10 teachers???

Sal, I would rather proof read all your previous posts than deal with this garbage. There's simply too much to deal with and the whole lot needs rewritten. I bet you a translator would say he would prefer to start all over again from the source.

Margo
28-10-2007, 19:23
Bels!
Can I ask something
there is a word, verb - to tease. My electronic dictionary (ABBYY Lingvo) as first translation gives something like - laugh at, may be giving names, but not very insulting. But as second-third - something close to "attempt to harass".
Once I used it I was definitely understood second way, and was shoked about it. So now I avoid doing it.
What is your opinion -in which meaning this word mostly used?
Thank you

Bels
28-10-2007, 20:34
Bels!
Can I ask something
there is a word, verb - to tease. My electronic dictionary (ABBYY Lingvo) as first translation gives something like - laugh at, may be giving names, but not very insulting. But as second-third - something close to "attempt to harass".
Once I used it I was definitely understood second way, and was shoked about it. So now I avoid doing it.
What is your opinion -in which meaning this word mostly used?
Thank you

Yes it's to make fun of a person, which could be in a friendly or cruel manner.

She teased her Father about his bald head.
Annya was teasing the cat, by pulling its tail.
In my opinion we use both equally, it could be friendly or it could be cruel.

Clean32
28-10-2007, 20:45
lol if you teased a friend it would be a joke, yet the same tease on a stranger may get your ears boxed

teased the cat. hanging a bit of string, when the cat jumps you pull the string.


I was teasing you when i was joking about your Hair and power sockets. i could tease you this way becouse you are such a nice and cool person, even if im not Italian LOL, where is the hairy little green bugger any way ??

dick
28-10-2007, 20:58
lol if you teased a friend it would be a joke, yet the same tease on a stranger may get your ears boxed

teased the cat. hanging a bit of string, when the cat jumps you pull the string.


I was teasing you when i was joking about your Hair and power sockets. i could tease you this way becouse you are such a nice and cool person, even if im not Italian LOL, where is the hairy little green bugger any way ??

it's gonna get more then your ears boxed, you racist *****.

Bels
28-10-2007, 21:06
Give him a red clean32, because I've just done it.It's very rare I do this.

In fact I'm surprised his reputation is not already showing this. He must be immune.

Bels
28-10-2007, 21:09
it's gonna get more then your ears boxed, you racist bastard.

Now that's not teasing. That's being abusive on the wrong thread.

And if he's a native speaker I'm ashamed to be associated with this guy.

dick
28-10-2007, 21:11
come on everyone give me a red I'll feel so bad. That's funny I just gave you a green one Bels, cuz I like you.

dick
28-10-2007, 21:14
Edited by admin... Swearing and abuse

Bels
28-10-2007, 21:31
[QUOTE=Margo;303801]Bels!
Can I ask something
there is a word, verb - to tease. My electronic dictionary (ABBYY Lingvo) as first translation gives something like - laugh at, may be giving names, but not very insulting. But as second-third - something close to "attempt to harass".
Once I used it I was definitely understood second way, and was shoked about it. So now I avoid doing it.
What is your opinion -in which meaning this word mostly used?
Thank you[/QUOTE

Back to topic and I hope for no more rude rude interruptions in this thread. One exception, clean32 made a valid contribution.

I have answered your question Margo, unfortunately a pocket translator has limited info, may I suggest you get a good oxford dictionary.

And Sal, I can't see anyone wanting to tackle your article, may I suggest you get one or several of your rough previous posts and we will be happy to deal with them. Get some of the big ones if you wish. But WOW, that article is too much. No wonder proof readers feel underpaid if that's what they get.

smchilds
28-10-2007, 22:09
Leave behind your biased suitcases filled with rational, order, and control. Open your minds to the concepts of exasperation, contrast, and conflict. Just for a moment, forget the notion of teeming violence, violence that forces human beings to pay for a simple taxi ride shorter than two kilometers with a check. Alas, forget Brazilians, the Brazilians we see in films, men with gaping muscles and women with exaggerated breasts. Historical mass immigration has created a place where no one is a tourist.

Before anything else, San Paolo’s geographical dimensions will astound you. San Paolo from up above on the regular airplane is not describable. San Paolo is not an area for which words have yet been coined. However, if it helps the reader (and please laugh about this), you fly over it for 40 minutes always expecting the airplane landing to be a second away. In a way, you run the risk of getting intimidated and relegating yourself to submission and passiveness. It is an alien vision that empties its viewer of every pretense and you find your hands trembling. Yet, this alien vision cannot help but to capture your interest and to serve as a challenge.

Twenty million people inhabit this piece of our planet in which glorious skyscrapers climb towards the gray sky filled with rage and pollution. Among these architectural elephants are also found precarious suburban refuges. If you come with the preconception of the Western metropolis with a city-center and outskirts, San Paolo is an experience with strong contours.

The streets spread out under your eyes finally reaching the eight gangways. You will be hard-pressed to count and see and understand. The effort that you make is difficult to endure. There is an unstoppable flux of cars and trucks that hopes to traverse an enormous territory, a territory without precedents for many of you.
If you happen to come to San Paolo in the summertime you will not be able to keep the window closed due to the suffocating heat nor will you be able to keep the window open due to the run off fumes that penetrate your nostrils. However, if you feel heroic (at least on vacation), and if your concept of travel is not the sterile transplantation of regular needs or the planned disregard of those needs, try to drive: it must be wonderful.

The diverse faces that compose this mosaic enrich the esthetic experience: Asians, Arabs, tons of Europeans. San Paolo encloses a trans-national society and embodies the charm produced by that trans-national society.
Your ethnicity will not be a source of tension whatsoever.
Millions of Italians came to San Paolo at the end of the nineteenth century and millions of Japanese immigrants made their entrance into San Paolo during the twentieth century. In the twenty-first century, Brazilians from the North East (the poorest area in all of Brazil) arrive in San Paolo every day in hopes of a better life. In fact, 50% of Brazil’s Gross National Product (GNP) is produced here and thirty of the country’s fifty most relevant industries are located here. In consequence, there is a strong middle class that is educated and numerous. The middle class loves and can spend money.
You will not fail to realize that liquid assets abound in San Paolo, often American greenbacks, because there is little confidence in the national currency.

The elegance of the most chic neighborhoods reach occidental perfection; a frame filled with a picture of trees and green space substitutes the squalor of cement. Palm trees are transplanted into the apartment courtyards and an image is projected, an image of wealth. The line between dearth and well-being is ratified with authoritarian violence. It is certainly not in the Brazilian mentality or that of Paulistanos (the word used for locals) to worry about hiding or not revealing this routine. In San Paolo, who has (everything) and who does not have is revealed without terminology. The difference is paraded. Analogously, you might think of those women of statuary beauty, icons of taste and sensuality, to whom Brazil has accustomed us.
Certainly, San Paolo is probably not the best place to immortalize in thought (and in flesh for the most audacious) such an image of beauty and sensuality. Welcome (word used by Brazilians themselves) to the city of silicone and drag queens, seemingly women even from just a few inches away.

The nightlife definitely does not disappoint. Simple boredom does not belong to a mammoth metropolis that coherently seeks with admirable effort unyielding hedonism. Only Tokyo and New York have as much to offer and San Paolo does not fail to match up. It is impossible not to know where to pass a night for there are hundreds of clubs, discothèques, and bars that animate the city until past dawn. Rather than finding a deserted restaurant, you find a restaurant with a line out the door. Even if you decide to go back home, there is still the risk of traffic that does not seem to calm down just because it is three in the morning.
If you are still in the mood to be dazzled, drive for two hours towards the coast where Paulistanos have their second homes. Saturday night, herds of young people fill the nightlife establishments. Cover charges can run as high as 20 euros, but you dance among inviting swimming pools and reprinted artwork.
Do not expect an undercurrent of samba: leave behind the samba and the recognized sublime tradition of Brazilian music (from Torquinho to ChicoBuarque, from DellaValle to Jobim) to those who use this stuff to delight the tourists.

The issue of art is interesting because it is employed to interrupt the banality of a country made up of huge apartment complexes and cement and therefore we admire the architectural masterpieces of Oscar Niemeyer (the architect who launched Brasilia) or we visit the galleries downtown that hold very respectable collections. I went to the exhibit on surrealists and a tribute exhibit to Chagall.
However, it is not these things that San Paolo can offer and for which the tourist must look. Not even the Japanese with their global tourism manage to cling to the itinerary of their planned trip. Planned trips end in San Paolo. Of course, they could take a photograph of all the research material and medical reports underway with which the city could open itself to the curious looker on.
Backpacking tourists that converge in Brazil during the high season do not stick to their original travel plans either. There are other beautiful ambitions that attract their desire of evasion and direct what they take in. The most common saying is “I landed in San Paolo and left the day after”. And if you are hard-headed and try to tell people that there is more than just cement and that you undoubtedly missed a part of the “real” Brazil, those people tend to shoot down your views.
It is only another big city if you think of it this way, without attention. It is also polluted and sad and gray and the people work for eleven hours a day. The natives are tense and pissed-off like in London and in Milan.
Luckily for them and for us, a Brazilian is not capable of not showing a smile.
We are far from the paradises of emotional involvement and superb hospitality that you may have presumed. Residents of Rio and Paulistanos are different echelons. They are found together only when we speak of urban degrade and violence, even if here in San Paolo the police still go into unsavory “establishments” that sprinkle the city. In Rio, such police involvement is unthinkable.

People discourage you from traveling alone, from using nocturnal forms of transportation, and from resisting if a group of punks demand your money. There is also prostitution, sometimes legal and sometimes not, that tends to make us perceive San Paolo as an enormous bordello. Whether in the center or in the outskirts, the spirit is unequivocal.
There is the electricity crisis and there are streetlights that go out unexpectedly and without warning and darkness comes over the city and there is the risk of climbing 23 floors of staircases because not even the elevators are working.

Sometimes you have to put aside that unattractive veil that can crush our purest sensations and great beauty.

There seems to exist a quirky battle between blind progress and unhealthy decadence. Who moves forward does not look backwards, he tears ahead with the classic security that money and power are solid barriers. He who acts this way must do so before the country of Brazil becomes another Argentina and even he will be clanging a pan and spoon or banging on closed shop doors. The effects would be even more devastating in Brazil for it is the key player in the game of South American interests. I do not want to imagine 150,000,000 people in dyer straights.

I wanted to give voice to the San Paolo I saw and the San Paolo I appreciated. I wanted to stimulate curiosity and interest in who has not yet been there, but hopefully has the opportunity to go visit this megalopolis that vibrates with its own modern and contradictory vitality. In San Paolo there is room for that which goes beyond music trends and the colors of Carnival, beyond the poverty and dearth of the streets.
San Paolo is a shock: there is what you expect and what they tell you of the Third World and its thousands of conflicts. There is what you rationally have difficulty making out once you actually go there: the energy of the numbers, the diversity, and the money that is radiated by San Paolo.

I don't really edit things for fun, but I could make a few points:
1. Regarding the first sentence, "rational" is an adjective. The proper word here would be "reason."
2. "Gaping" means wide open, not really an appropriate adjective for "muscles."
Ok, that’s all the time I have now.

Bels
28-10-2007, 22:58
I don't really edit things for fun, but I could make a few points:
1. Regarding the first sentence, "rational" is an adjective. The proper word here would be "reason."
2. "Gaping" means wide open, not really an appropriate adjective for "muscles."
Ok, that’s all the time I have now.

Yes , I accept two points you have made, much more to go on. The whole lot should be re-written. I've been there, because we are all experienced to prrof read articles which end up being garbage. There's too much to fix here, because I've been there, done it due to experience, and my wifes a translator, and I assist her. We know how to sort out the garbage.

Just give us a few samples of your original posts Sal. It's a helluva lot easier.

Bels
28-10-2007, 23:01
I don't really edit things for fun, but I could make a few points:
1. Regarding the first sentence, "rational" is an adjective. The proper word here would be "reason."
2. "Gaping" means wide open, not really an appropriate adjective for "muscles."
Ok, that’s all the time I have now.

Don't even try the whole lot. I suspect this is a computer translation with a little improvement. I've been there, and you will end up rewriting it.

smchilds
28-10-2007, 23:59
Well, I wouldn't edit the whole thing. I just pointed out what I noticed at first, but I would say that basically every sentence has something wrong with it. But it doesn't seem quite as bad as a computer-made translation (at least, not those that I have seen before).

SalTheReturn
29-10-2007, 00:05
I don't really edit things for fun, but I could make a few points:
1. Regarding the first sentence, "rational" is an adjective. The proper word here would be "reason."
2. "Gaping" means wide open, not really an appropriate adjective for "muscles."
Ok, that’s all the time I have now.

i think rationality it is more appropriate

tomorrow you may edit the whole paragraph?

soon anyway guys we are going to start my choral production of my resume in english...

Bels
29-10-2007, 20:48
Well, I wouldn't edit the whole thing. I just pointed out what I noticed at first, but I would say that basically every sentence has something wrong with it. But it doesn't seem quite as bad as a computer-made translation (at least, not those that I have seen before).

Have you been asked to deal with such an article , that you have spent a lot of time dealing with it sentence by sentence. And then looking at it again you decide you want to rewrite it. Believe me there are some nice big pieces of previous posts of Sal's which is much more pleasant deal with.

However you do make a very good issue, let's all look at it in peices or a sentence at a time, and any one can contribute with any sentence they like.

Bels
29-10-2007, 21:29
I've decided to seriously look at your article. The main problems are not in the grammar but it's more in the way of how you constructed the article, and there are many inappropriate words of which is a common problem with second language speakers.

I first of all have to clarify what on earth you are talking about first, and studying the first paragraph you lack explanation on your first sentence

What do mean by having biased suitcases that have rational order and control?

Do you mean forget about your tidily packed suitcase, just dump a few bare necessities in your back-pack such as sun-lotion, mosquito repellent, a tea shirt and shorts and just go for it? for example.

And how do you explain why a person shouldn't just go to San Paolo with a neatly packed suitcase?

SalTheReturn
30-10-2007, 00:32
I've decided to seriously look at your article. The main problems are not in the grammar but it's more in the way of how you constructed the article, and there are many inappropriate words of which is a common problem with second language speakers.

I first of all have to clarify what on earth you are talking about first, and studying the first paragraph you lack explanation on your first sentence

What do mean by having biased suitcases that have rational order and control?

Do you mean forget about your tidily packed suitcase, just dump a few bare necessities in your back-pack such as sun-lotion, mosquito repellent, a tea shirt and shorts and just go for it? for example.

And how do you explain why a person shouldn't just go to San Paolo with a neatly packed suitcase?

now this is ridicolous blaming me because someone else has apparently messed the translation

in italian it make sense, dunno in english

but as concern you asking those questions about first paragraph it only show 2 possible things:
1)you did not grow up reading books
2)you have little mental flexibility

Korotky Gennady
30-10-2007, 01:44
Alas, forget Brazilians, the Brazilians we see in films, men with gaping muscles and women with exaggerated breasts.



.


Sallie, boy... I can suggest you this variant on that piece of text. It will be okey for you...

" Alas, forget Brazilians, the Brazilians we see in films, men with gaping assh..les and women with exaggerated breasts. "

:fireworks:

it will be much more litterary then.

ezik
30-10-2007, 02:05
Guys, I really start getting demented, I suppose.

Bels posts something completely normal and then it goes to Sao Paolo.

Sal, no use in explaining your point. Just explain why you decided to hijack the post with a completely irrevelant reply. What the F*** have Brazilians (nice people, spent a lot of time there to find out) to do with Bels' post?

Looks like a f**king madhouse, this thread. :(

Korotky Gennady
30-10-2007, 02:28
but as concern you asking those questions about first paragraph it only show 2 possible things:
1)you did not grow up reading books
2)you have little mental flexibility

LOL Gosh... it's what he said in gratitude for help... :p

Korotky Gennady
30-10-2007, 02:33
Bels... it will be bettter if you explane me how the native speakers use the word "yet" ? ... How do they understand sense of that word ?

Why it would be correct to ask " have you eaten yet ? " and what is difference from " have you eaten ? "

ridcully
30-10-2007, 08:33
Bels... it will be bettter if you explane me how the native speakers use the word "yet" ? ... How do they understand sense of that word ?

Why it would be correct to ask " have you eaten yet ? " and what is difference from " have you eaten ? "

"Yet" means "up to now" in this example. So the difference between "have you eaten?" and "have you eaten yet?" is that the second emphasises that I should eat something SOON. Example:

Mother (on phone from UK): Have you eaten?
Me: I'm busy - I'll have lunch soon.

An hour later ...
Mother (on phone from UK again): Have you eaten yet?
Me: I'll have lunch soon, honestly ...

Bels, KG - excuse me (native English speaker) jumping in here! :)

SalTheReturn
30-10-2007, 10:11
Guys, I really start getting demented, I suppose.

Bels posts something completely normal and then it goes to Sao Paolo.

Sal, no use in explaining your point. Just explain why you decided to hijack the post with a completely irrevelant reply. What the F*** have Brazilians (nice people, spent a lot of time there to find out) to do with Bels' post?

Looks like a f**king madhouse, this thread. :(

Ezik

Bels ask non native english speakers to post an article and offered himself, alongside his team of 10 teachers, to go all the way through it and bring correction

i just satisfied his requests thats all:thumbsup:

he did not satisfy mine though:evil:

why (this is ridicolous) do you think i hate brazilian?
do you just think i hate everyone?

SalTheReturn
30-10-2007, 10:12
Sallie, boy... I can suggest you this variant on that piece of text. It will be okey for you...

" Alas, forget Brazilians, the Brazilians we see in films, men with gaping assh..les and women with exaggerated breasts. "

:fireworks:

it will be much more litterary then.

why???

Bels
30-10-2007, 10:47
Guys, I really start getting demented, I suppose.

Bels posts something completely normal and then it goes to Sao Paolo.

Sal, no use in explaining your point. Just explain why you decided to hijack the post with a completely irrevelant reply. What the F*** have Brazilians (nice people, spent a lot of time there to find out) to do with Bels' post?

Looks like a f**king madhouse, this thread. :(

I did invite members own articles to be commented on by myself and other teachers. The subject could be about anything. But I didn't ask for poor translations from their own languages.

Why Sal decided to send a translation rather than his own work from English to English I don't know. Translations are difficult to deal with.

However, it proves a very good point. That when asking for a translator who is translating from Italian to English, get an English native. Not a native of the source.

Bels
30-10-2007, 10:55
"Yet" means "up to now" in this example. So the difference between "have you eaten?" and "have you eaten yet?" is that the second emphasises that I should eat something SOON. Example:

Mother (on phone from UK): Have you eaten?
Me: I'm busy - I'll have lunch soon.

An hour later ...
Mother (on phone from UK again): Have you eaten yet?
Me: I'll have lunch soon, honestly ...

Bels, KG - excuse me (native English speaker) jumping in here! :)

Please do! That's what I'm asking for. And please tell me, what do you think of Sals post. Do you think we should tackle it. Or should we ask our student to give us something else, using English as the source.

MickeyTong
30-10-2007, 11:54
I found the Sao Paolo piece painful, but I still tried to improve its readability. However, there were many parts where the intended meaning was not clear, so I gave up.
Thank god I'm not a translator - it must be hell converting idioms and metaphores into a readable form whilst keeping the original meaning.

ridcully
30-10-2007, 11:55
Please do! That's what I'm asking for. And please tell me, what do you think of Sals post. Do you think we should tackle it. Or should we ask our student to give us something else, using English as the source.

I find Sal's post very interesting. There are so many places where I think I understand a sentence - then I get to the end of the sentence, and I'm not so sure. And the English seems a little, um, flowery(?)

Example:
The streets spread out under your eyes finally reaching the eight gangways. You will be hard-pressed to count and see and understand. The effort that you make is difficult to endure. There is an unstoppable flux of cars and trucks that hopes to traverse an enormous territory, a territory without precedents for many of you.

If you happen to come to San Paolo in the summertime you will not be able to keep the window closed due to the suffocating heat nor will you be able to keep the window open due to the run off fumes that penetrate your nostrils. However, if you feel heroic (at least on vacation), and if your concept of travel is not the sterile transplantation of regular needs or the planned disregard of those needs, try to drive: it must be wonderful.

Might become:
The streets spread out under your eyes finally reaching the eight {gangways - what are these? Doesn't seem to make sense. Ring roads? Motorways?}. You will be hard-pressed to count and see and understand {count, see, understand what?}. The effort that you make is difficult to endure. There {seems to be} an unstoppable flux of cars and trucks trying to {travel} {a}cross this enormous city, a city without precedents for many of you.

If you happen to come to San Paolo in the summertime you will not be able to keep the window closed due to the suffocating heat nor will you be able to keep the window open due to the traffic fumes that penetrate your nostrils. However, if you feel heroic (at least on vacation), and if your concept of travel is not the sterile transplantation of regular needs or the planned disregard of those needs, try to drive: it must be wonderful. {I get the sense of this - if your idea of travelling is not simply to carry on with your usual routine, or simply to forget about what you usually do - then try driving. But it's more than this, isn't it?}

I've written a lot in my career, but never travel prose, so I'm not in the "mindset" for this stuff. But it's extraordinarily difficult to work out its meaning!

Clean32
30-10-2007, 12:11
Guys and Gals

I actually have just read Sals so called peace. I have a strong feeling that I have read it before, in English and better written.
I suspect not only for that reason, and the fact that its in Sal nature ( entrapment ) that sal has run an Italian peace though a translator ( electronic) but he also has the original English in hand. unless your comments / corrections exactly match his English version, he will go all out to make your English look stupid, and or he will use this English copy to show off how brilliant his English is IE better than the English.

Bels I commend you with this thread, and putting the English group together. However just look around Sals only motivation is to F*ck up as many threads as he can.

Bels
30-10-2007, 13:02
"Yet" means "up to now" in this example. So the difference between "have you eaten?" and "have you eaten yet?" is that the second emphasises that I should eat something SOON. Example:

Mother (on phone from UK): Have you eaten?
Me: I'm busy - I'll have lunch soon.

An hour later ...
Mother (on phone from UK again): Have you eaten yet?
Me: I'll have lunch soon, honestly ...

Bels, KG - excuse me (native English speaker) jumping in here! :)

If you are making a statement that you already aware of the action, and you want confirmation of that action. How about a tag question such as: You haven't eaten yet, have you.

Or again if you already know " Haven't you eaten yet!"

Have you eaten yet has a meaning that you don't know. " Ok, I better cook you something now". For a positive answer.

ridcully
30-10-2007, 13:30
If you are making a statement that you already aware of the action, and you want confirmation of that action. How about a tag question such as: You haven't eaten yet, have you.

Or again if you already know " Haven't you eaten yet!"

Have you eaten yet has a meaning that you don't know. " Ok, I better cook you something now". For a positive answer.

And there are more meanings too (or perhaps these are just different nuances?):

"That was the best meal yet!" - the best meal up to now.

"Don't eat it yet!" - wait until I tell you!

"I may yet cook a better meal" - smth that may happen in the future

"He's always hungry - so I"ll cook yet more rice!"

"I had no cookbook, yet I made a good meal!" - conjunction

Tricky stuff, language! Picked up Stephen Pinker's book (The Stuff of Thought) yesterday - inspired by this thread! Grateful to you, Bels - and Pinker owes you a slice of his royalty ;) !

(Russian g/f studied linguistics too, so it's also helpful to keep up with her!)

SalTheReturn
30-10-2007, 13:32
Guys and Gals

I actually have just read Sals so called peace. I have a strong feeling that I have read it before, in English and better written.
I suspect not only for that reason, and the fact that its in Sal nature ( entrapment ) that sal has run an Italian peace though a translator ( electronic) but he also has the original English in hand. unless your comments / corrections exactly match his English version, he will go all out to make your English look stupid, and or he will use this English copy to show off how brilliant his English is IE better than the English.

Bels I commend you with this thread, and putting the English group together. However just look around Sals only motivation is to F*ck up as many threads as he can.

TO ALL OTHER POSTERS:

malvagity from this guy it has always been rampant

but for no reason at all I would ever post an article from someone else nor i would waste your time asking for things I am not interested in knowing

i wrote this article in italian for a public university reading and liked it a lot, loved it actually

i want it translated and handled it over an agency where an american native speaker made the job

so sad to see that people like clean have nothing better to do than spouting crap on others
the only line you might have already seen (lonely planet edition on Brazil) it is the one about the "30most relevant industries"

you are revolting clean really

Clean32
30-10-2007, 13:40
Nope Thai airways, infight magazine, 99% sure

SalTheReturn
30-10-2007, 13:55
Nope Thai airways, infight magazine, 99% sure

well at least you did not say 100%

unfortunately you are wrong mate...maybe you wanna try again?

please post link

you take care

hazelnut
30-10-2007, 15:21
Hello, people!
What a great idea this thread is!
I’d like to know more about using of synonyms.
Terrible, horrible, dreadful, fearful…
Is it possible to say “terribly glad to see you? ” (in Russian it’s widely used “ужасно рад тебя видеть!”)

Certainly, surely, of course, indeed….
Wonderful, lovely, beautiful, marvelous…
Apparently, obviously, evidently…
And also I would be grateful if somebody explained how to use the word “splendid”. What can be splendid?

Clean32
30-10-2007, 15:41
Hello, people!
What a great idea this thread is!
I’d like to know more about using of synonyms.
Terrible, horrible, dreadful, fearful…
Is it possible to say “terribly glad to see you? ” (in Russian it’s widely used “ужасно рад тебя видеть!”)

Certainly, surely, of course, indeed….
Wonderful, lovely, beautiful, marvelous…
Apparently, obviously, evidently…
And also I would be grateful if somebody explained how to use the word “splendid”. What can be splendid?

umm intresting, you will need a london type to help you there, to say “terribly glad to see you? ” or using the word "splendid", is regarded in many english countrys as a bit pommy or worce poofy.

Korotky Gennady
30-10-2007, 15:57
And there are more meanings too (or perhaps these are just different nuances?):






Thank you i don't know how about others russians but it seems to me that i start to understand the meaning and usage of the word "yet"..

But whAT about the word "already" ? Will it change some nuance of meaning of the phrases if in the phrases you gave... we use the word "already" instead of the word "yet" ?

Korotky Gennady
30-10-2007, 16:05
And really from the name all russians here ... big thanks to Bells pesonally that he opened here the such useful thread for everybody.

I don't know no one russian who can speak english really perfectly

:bookworm:


Now I am writing my dissertation and my book in russian but i hope the day comes and i will be doing it in the english becoz the english language is great and only the russian one is better than it... in all languages i know.

hazelnut
30-10-2007, 16:06
using the word "splendid", is regarded in many english countrys as a bit pommy or worce poofy.

oh, is it? I had some prejudice against the word, that was the reason for asking! though met it many times in first-rate literature

Korotky Gennady
30-10-2007, 16:07
TO ALL OTHER POSTERS:




i want it translated and handled it over an agency where an american native speaker made the job



Sal it is impossible. I am sorry... But you didn't unclose something to us...

hazelnut
30-10-2007, 16:11
And really from the name all russians here ... big thanks to Bells pesonally that he opened here the such useful thread for everybody.
You've just taken it off my tongue!!!
Bels add my personal THANK YOU to that of Gennady

Korotky Gennady
30-10-2007, 16:12
2 Sal

Sal, what an american interpreter could write such senseless phrase as " Alas, forget Brazilians, the Brazilians we see in films, men with gaping muscles... " ??

What could these "gaping" muscles mean ? Read my previous post about something gaping which i addressed to you...

MickeyTong
30-10-2007, 16:55
I wouldn't go so far as to say "splendid" is a poofy word....it's not very commonly used, and when things are not very common they can be seen as pretentious.
This thread in the forum is a splendid idea. The word is an adjective from the noun "splendour", literally meaning brilliant and used to denote something exceptional or outstandingly good. Sal's Sao Paolo piece is definitely not splendid.
I think the Russian translation is великолепный, but I don't know if that word is used in similar contexts.

Aussie Mark
30-10-2007, 17:01
I wouldn't go so far as to say "splendid" is a poofy word...
Mickey, come on mate, face it... splendid is poofy... ;)

MickeyTong
30-10-2007, 17:07
Well, Mark, Aussies would say most things English are poofy....(except, maybe, cricket).
In fact, I use the word quite often, particularly whilst standing at a urinal if the chap standing next to me has a splendid todger.

ridcully
30-10-2007, 17:11
umm intresting, you will need a london type to help you there, to say “terribly glad to see you? ” or using the word "splendid", is regarded in many english countrys as a bit pommy or worce poofy.

London type here ...

"Terribly glad to see you", "awfully nice", "splendid idea" - as Clean says, these are all examples of rather old-fashioned English, as spoken (in the mind of many people in the UK) by "posh" people. (My dictionary defines posh as the quality or state of being elegant, stylish, or upper-class.)

That said, I have many UK friends associated with our oldest universities who still use language like this, and it sounds quite natural.

Other examples with the same kind of connections:

frightfully good
super [on its own, or as adjective, eg super idea, super day, super meal]
chap [to mean "man" - eg "terribly nice chap", "old chap"]
rather [as in "oh, rather!" (stress on second syllable - ra-THER) - meaning "I agree!"]

Many, many others! Is P G Wodehouse known here? His "Jeeves" books contain lots of such English - featuring "Bertie Wooster", a stereotypical upper-class Englishman, set in the period between the First and Second World Wars. One site with lots of quotes is P. G. Wodehouse (http://f2.org/humour/quotes/fic/wodehouse.html)

I think the books (and probably tapes, CDs too) are in the British Council Library. I have some mp3s - PM me if you'd like them!

Here's an example:
Great pals we've always been. In fact there was a time when I had an idea I was in love with Cynthia. However, it blew over. A dashed pretty and lively and attractive girl, mind you, but full of ideals and all that. I may be wronging her, but I have an idea that she's the sort of girl who would want a fellow to carve out a career and what not. I know I've heard her speak favourably of Napoleon. So what with one thing and another the jolly old frenzy sort of petered out, and now we're just pals. I think she's a topper, and she thinks me next door to a looney, so everything's nice and matey.

Not to everyone's taste! Wodehouse was not popular with the UK Foreign Office, who said he wrote about an "image of the British character which we are doing our best to eradicate".

ridcully
30-10-2007, 17:19
Well, Mark, Aussies would say most things English are poofy....(except, maybe, cricket).
In fact, I use the word quite often, particularly whilst standing at a urinal if the chap standing next to me has a splendid todger.

:yikes:
As in "I say, what a frightfully splendid todger!" he ejaculated.
:yikes:

I'll get my coat ..

MickeyTong
30-10-2007, 17:26
Hehehehehe.....
I used to watch those pinnacles of Aussie cultural achievement "Home and Away" and "Neighbors" and was stunned when one of the female characters said (referring to a guy) "He's a spunk".

ridcully
30-10-2007, 17:36
Hehehehehe.....
I used to watch those pinnacles of Aussie cultural achievement "Home and Away" and "Neighbors" and was stunned when one of the female characters said (referring to a guy) "He's a spunk".

I've always creased up when someone has been described as "full of spunk" - acceptable as a term meaning "courageous" in the USA, I think (and Aus too?) but when used in the UK ... ! :yikes:

It was once used by a "frightfully nice" middle-aged woman in a conversation I was part of - several people (me included) had severe problems keeping a straight face! :)

hazelnut
30-10-2007, 17:47
I think the Russian translation is великолепный, but I don't know if that word is used in similar contexts.
What I like about this translation is some phonetical similarity.
"великолепная идея" - in Russian a bit too long for ordinary speaking to my ear, and old-fashioned, indeed, but certainly used in literature.
So, with that translation being assumed I think I feel the word! Thank you!

Clean32
30-10-2007, 18:44
Ok I cant resist, I am going to jump back in. By first comments ( poofy) is about register.
Peoples register changes not only by location but by time as well. I can remember an old auntie commenting on a business deal I was involved in as being a “very good screw”. While the family rolled around the floor laughing, it was left to my grandmother to explain that the word Screw had in the last 80 years changed its meaning. From good profit to sex.

Having said that to run around central London saying “jolly good old chap”. And “what a “splendid idea”, in that place at that time, is normal speech. Try saying the same thing in the Star Hotel on a Friday night; (Australia) you would be lucky to survive with all your teeth and would probably be encouraged to leave the premises veer the window, unopened and head first.

In Russia the only example I know of is “ damoy shard” in Moscow “Damoy Yest”
Any Russian, who uses the work Shard instead of Yest, is automatically pegged as an uneducated village idiot.
The opposite applies as well, if a Russian was to use the word Yest in a village, they are automatically pegged as being rich and with mafia connections


The same in English, apart from in London, splendid would peg you as possibly being a bit Camp, a poofter. Very unmanly.

ridcully
30-10-2007, 18:59
Ok I cant resist, I am going to jump back in. By first comments ( poofy) is about register.
Peoples register changes not only by location but by time as well. I can remember an old auntie commenting on a business deal I was involved in as being a “very good screw”. While the family rolled around the floor laughing, it was left to my grandmother to explain that the word Screw had in the last 80 years changed its meaning. From good profit to sex.

Having said that to run around central London saying “jolly good old chap”. And “what a “splendid idea”, in that place at that time, is normal speech. Try saying the same thing in the Star Hotel on a Friday night; (Australia) you would be lucky to survive with all your teeth and would probably be encouraged to leave the premises veer the window, unopened and head first.

In Russia the only example I know of is “ damoy shard” in Moscow “Damoy Yest”
Any Russian, who uses the work Shard instead of Yest, is automatically pegged as an uneducated village idiot.
The opposite applies as well, if a Russian was to use the word Yest in a village, they are automatically pegged as being rich and with mafia connections


The same in English, apart from in London, splendid would peg you as possibly being a bit Camp, a poofter. Very unmanly.

And even in London, you'd be careful where you would speak like this. Clean, you're quite right, register, pronunciation and body language all play a part. You certainly wouldn't use the word "chap" in many parts of London - to say "come on old chap!" as a way of getting attention in a pub in East London would be to invite just the kind of reaction you describe in Aus. But to use "Oi! Mate!" in a pub in (say) Islington - North London - would also produce a reaction, tho probably not physical. (But even then, said in the right way, could be ok ... )

Cheers!

Aussie Mark
30-10-2007, 19:21
This is great conversation... I suspect a version in the character of Ali G would add a bit of colour to this whole tread too!!! :respect:

And as far as "spunk" goes... it has a double meaning in OZ... probably closer to the USA version for the younger generation and the UK version for the older generation... for those of us Gen X'ers that bridge the gap it's all about context :)

Bels
30-10-2007, 19:41
TO ALL OTHER POSTERS:

malvagity from this guy it has always been rampant

but for no reason at all I would ever post an article from someone else nor i would waste your time asking for things I am not interested in knowing

i wrote this article in italian for a public university reading and liked it a lot, loved it actually

i want it translated and handled it over an agency where an american native speaker made the job

so sad to see that people like clean have nothing better to do than spouting crap on others
the only line you might have already seen (lonely planet edition on Brazil) it is the one about the "30most relevant industries"

you are revolting clean really

I know enough to tell you this, Sal. My wife's a professional translator and I sometimes assist her. This is not a translation from a professional American native speaking translator. Unless of course the original source was garbage and he didn't want to rewrite it for you.

Bels
30-10-2007, 19:44
This is great conversation... I suspect a version in the character of Ali G would add a bit of colour to this whole tread too!!! :respect:

And as far as "spunk" goes... it has a double meaning in OZ... probably closer to the USA version for the younger generation and the UK version for the older generation... for those of us Gen X'ers that bridge the gap it's all about context :)

Don't you mean HUNK ?

Got alot a lot spunk (courage) yes I understand. Or what the Brits prefer "He's got guts".

MickeyTong
30-10-2007, 19:52
Yes...context and environment are vitally important. I usually speak with a non-regional, neutral English accent, but whenever I go to a pub here in Scotland I make sure to flatten my vowels and use a less erudite vocabulary to avoid being characterised as an poofy English snob.
This is also the case with body language and clothing. I was gobsmacked to see men in Moscow WITH HANDBAGS. On my island there would be sermons preached against that sort of thing.

Bels
30-10-2007, 19:55
Ok I cant resist, I am going to jump back in. By first comments ( poofy) is about register.
Peoples register changes not only by location but by time as well. I can remember an old auntie commenting on a business deal I was involved in as being a “very good screw”. While the family rolled around the floor laughing, it was left to my grandmother to explain that the word Screw had in the last 80 years changed its meaning. From good profit to sex.

Having said that to run around central London saying “jolly good old chap”. And “what a “splendid idea”, in that place at that time, is normal speech. Try saying the same thing in the Star Hotel on a Friday night; (Australia) you would be lucky to survive with all your teeth and would probably be encouraged to leave the premises veer the window, unopened and head first.

In Russia the only example I know of is “ damoy shard” in Moscow “Damoy Yest”
Any Russian, who uses the work Shard instead of Yest, is automatically pegged as an uneducated village idiot.
The opposite applies as well, if a Russian was to use the word Yest in a village, they are automatically pegged as being rich and with mafia connections


The same in English, apart from in London, splendid would peg you as possibly being a bit Camp, a poofter. Very unmanly.

I'm glad you stated that we change our language through time. I forgive for not being a native Brit, and watching too many American and old British movies. The examples you have given are either out of date or spoken only by a very small minority of Brits. This small minority also sound like they are attempting to speak with a gob-stopper in their mouth.

Aussie Mark
30-10-2007, 19:55
Don't you mean HUNK ?

Got alot a lot spunk (courage) yes I understand. Or what the Brits prefer "He's got guts".

Again... got to watch your context here...

Spunk to a 12 year old is a "good looking"... "He's a Spunk" as before.
Spunk to an 18 year old is something that is best to be avoided unless there is "protection" in the form of a prophylactic involved... "He's full of Spunk"

BUT

"He's full of spunk" to anyone over the age of ~ 28 to 30 has the "courage" connotation as well.

On Reflection though... I bet my 13 and 15 year old nieces understand the first two contexts equally well...

ridcully
30-10-2007, 19:56
Don't you mean HUNK ?

Got alot a lot spunk (courage) yes I understand. Or what the Brits prefer "He's got guts".

No, no, no Bels ... I think many of us (Brits and Aussies) have a more biological understanding of this word. (Urban Dictionary: spunk (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=spunk))

Aussie Mark
30-10-2007, 20:00
I was gobsmacked to see men in Moscow WITH HANDBAGS. On my island there would be sermons preached against that sort of thing.

Someone had to mention it... good call Mickey.

What is it with the Man-bags... a fashion accessory that hasn't really caught on in the West... yet... :doh:

ridcully
30-10-2007, 20:01
I was gobsmacked to see men in Moscow WITH HANDBAGS. On my island there would be sermons preached against that sort of thing.

In some places, yes. It's not unusual in London these days, and I've carried a bag for years in the UK and overseas. (There, I've admitted it ... feels g o o d !!!)

:verycool:

Bels
30-10-2007, 20:10
This is great conversation... I suspect a version in the character of Ali G would add a bit of colour to this whole tread too!!! :respect:

And as far as "spunk" goes... it has a double meaning in OZ... probably closer to the USA version for the younger generation and the UK version for the older generation... for those of us Gen X'ers that bridge the gap it's all about context :)

We have our very own expat Ali G :hooray: It's Sal :rolleyes:

MickeyTong
30-10-2007, 20:14
I don't want to sound homophobic, but I'd be alarmed if I was standing at a urinal and a spunk with a handbag ejaculated on the splendour of my todger.
But perhaps this is not apropos of subject of this thread, and we should stop this deviance....

Bels
30-10-2007, 20:14
Mickey, come on mate, face it... splendid is poofy... ;)

Dated I would call it. Just like Gee Whiz for Americans. I think our language changes every decade and we need to keep up to date.

ridcully
30-10-2007, 20:27
I don't want to sound homophobic, but I'd be alarmed if I was standing at a urinal and a spunk with a handbag ejaculated on the splendour of my todger.
But perhaps this is not apropos of subject of this thread, and we should stop this deviance....

My colleagues are now asking me why I am laughing uncontrollably :) .

Nice one, Mickey!

Just off to take a whiz ...

(Urban Dictionary: whiz (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whiz))

ridcully
30-10-2007, 20:32
We have our very own expat Ali G :hooray: It's Sal :rolleyes:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/AliG-Harv.jpg

SalTheReturn
30-10-2007, 21:06
We have our very own expat Ali G :hooray: It's Sal :rolleyes:

your post has been reported

SalTheReturn
30-10-2007, 21:06
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/AliG-Harv.jpg

your photo has been reported

Bels
30-10-2007, 21:49
evilgrin:::evilgrin::evilgrin:

Your post has been reported evilgrin.gif:evilgrin:::evilgrin::evilgrin:

Your photo has been reported evilgrin.gif:evilgrin:::evilgrin::evilgrin:

You certainly are a match to Ali g. I can't stop laughing and crying.
My family are wondering what's up with me

Korotky Gennady
30-10-2007, 22:36
I can't stop laughing and crying.
My family are wondering what's up with me

What's up with you ? ;) Hysterics ?... :eek:

SalTheReturn
30-10-2007, 22:42
1) what is meant by the expression "feature writing"?

2)what is meant by the expression "feature article"?

3)does this make sense?:
Responsible for transcription of texts and preparation
of indexes and digest compilations for online
version of the magazine.

Bels
30-10-2007, 22:47
1) what is meant by the expression "feature writing"?

2)what is meant by the expression "feature article"?

3)does this make sense?:
Responsible for transcription of texts and preparation
of indexes and digest compilations for online
version of the magazine.

I don't know. Why do you ask. What kind of a feature for example. Can you be more specific. In fact can you clarify everything what you mean and start talking like a native.

SalTheReturn
30-10-2007, 22:52
I don't know. Why do you ask. What kind of a feature for example. Can you be more specific. In fact can you clarify everything what you mean and start talking like a native.

too hard to put it down in writing but everytime english native speakers are asked for help they will always things like "be more specific" and they will end up by turning a pompous piece of writing into a crap

this is why (yeah, yeah, open your hears) your language it is quite crap when coming to poetry or all the like

what i hate it is the trend of the english illitterate native speakers to put things always in a easier way, like if the writer was a 14yo

fortunately you have still have fantasious expressions and wording when coming to insults, sex and all the like

DO OTHER EUROPEAN (OR EVEN RUSSIANS) GET WHAT I MEAN? get a language like russian, so pompous as it is, and turn it into english...it will sound like lifeless

hazelnut
30-10-2007, 22:57
1) what is meant by the expression "feature writing"?

2)what is meant by the expression "feature article"?

One of the definitions given to the word "feature" by my dictionary is the next: (in newspapers, on television, etc.) a special article or programme about sb/sth: a special feature on education
it fits, doesn't it?

Bels
30-10-2007, 23:05
too hard to put it down in writing but everytime english native speakers are asked for help they will always things like "be more specific" and they will end up by turning a pompous piece of writing into a crap

this is why (yeah, yeah, open your hears) your language it is quite crap when coming to poetry or all the like

what i hate it is the trend of the english illitterate native speakers to put things always in a easier way, like if the writer was a 14yo

fortunately you have still have fantasious expressions and wording when coming to insults, sex and all the like

DO OTHER EUROPEAN (OR EVEN RUSSIANS) GET WHAT I MEAN? get a language like russian, so pompous as it is, and turn it into english...it will sound like lifeless

That's not true Sa, and I now ask a professional english native translator to tell you why. Have we got one?

I've sussed you out Sal. you are no more then intermediate, with a lot of weaknesses. Yes, you are expressive, but you refuse to progress to advanced or even proficiency because you won't listen or even make an effort. My ten year old Russian son knows more than you.

Your statements prove a point, you refuse to want to learn further in this English language, and you would rather be critical to a native speaking teacher. Be honest with yourself and start asking honest questions, as we are here to help free of charge.

With a little promotion in mind :) But that comes later.

hazelnut
30-10-2007, 23:07
1)
3)does this make sense?:
Responsible for transcription of texts and preparation
of indexes and digest compilations for online
version of the magazine.

it looks like a part of CV. If so I think not DIGEST but maybe you meant DIGGING? Anyway, I think it sounds a bit too informal for CV. Sorry, I'm not native, maybe I shouldn't give suggestions

Aussie Mark
30-10-2007, 23:09
what i hate it is the trend of the english illitterate native speakers to put things always in a easier way, like if the writer was a 14yo

Hmmm, interesting comment. I have worked personally with Austrians, Russians, Koreans, Swedes and Americans... I use simplified English all the time, and I am encouraged to do so. In a technical field it helps communication and understanding. What it really means is to make your speech/writing more generic and leave out the distracting superlatives and adjectives but to leave the meaning still there. Even discussing this with some Russian's recently, they admit that it is easier to speak English to an ESL than a native...

I can see though, that someone who wants to learn English may want all of this left in, to broaden their use of English. That's good too.

I must say that I am continually humbled at the level and dedication of non-English speakers to lean English... certainly makes my life easier, thank you!

Bels
30-10-2007, 23:10
One of the definitions given to the word "feature" by my dictionary is the next: (in newspapers, on television, etc.) a special article or programme about sb/sth: a special feature on education
it fits, doesn't it?

Sal, she's asked you a question, I'm sure she appreciates the thanks. But how about the answer to number two.

Bels
30-10-2007, 23:14
it looks like a part of CV. If so I think not DIGEST but maybe you meant DIGGING? Anyway, I think it sounds a bit too informal for CV. Sorry, I'm not native, maybe I shouldn't give suggestions

Sorry, he's not native. He's only here to confuse you.

Bels
30-10-2007, 23:19
That's not true Sa, and I now ask a professional english native translator to tell you why. Have we got one?

I've sussed you out Sal. you are no more then intermediate, with a lot of weaknesses. Yes, you are expressive, but you refuse to progress to advanced or even proficiency because you won't listen or even make an effort. My ten year old Russian son knows more than you.

Your statements prove a point, you refuse to want to learn further in this English language, and you would rather be critical to a native speaking teacher. Be honest with yourself and start asking honest questions, as we are here to help free of charge.

With a little promotion in mind :) But that comes later.

Our language is quite sophisticated Sal. But don't be so impatient, because your level is not ready for it yet. What was the last formal level you studied.

You are not ready for sophistication in English like you are probably with Italian. If you are looking for sophistication I'm sure there are many here who will recommend you the literature. And then by all means read it, and ask questions here. No, we are not all illiterate.

MickeyTong
30-10-2007, 23:20
it looks like a part of CV. If so I think not DIGEST but maybe you meant DIGGING? Anyway, I think it sounds a bit too informal for CV. Sorry, I'm not native, maybe I shouldn't give suggestions

In this context "digest" refers to a collection of articles.
digest - Definitions from Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/digest)
noun
11. a collection or compendium, usually of literary, historical, legal, or scientific matter, esp. when classified or condensed.

Bels
30-10-2007, 23:23
it looks like a part of CV. If so I think not DIGEST but maybe you meant DIGGING? Anyway, I think it sounds a bit too informal for CV. Sorry, I'm not native, maybe I shouldn't give suggestions

Please do give suggestions, you are welcome.

SalTheReturn
31-10-2007, 00:57
Bels you go around understanding 30% of what people post...would not you better shut up?

really i have nothing against you personally but it is clear to me that you are a OMITTED teacher and you are not an academic

you have been probably little accustomed to literature and even lesser encouraged to compose essays

you have competences not culture


thanks to all others who seem to understand my stuff much better than bels

Bels, all your quotes are wrong because you constantly give the impression of understanding half of what people say. Seriously it is not the first time i notice it.

work on that

PS. my english is advanced, dont pay attention to the way i write here neverthless i am internatioanlly educated and attended state university in uk with flying colours

SalTheReturn
31-10-2007, 00:57
In this context "digest" refers to a collection of articles.
digest - Definitions from Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/digest)
noun
11. a collection or compendium, usually of literary, historical, legal, or scientific matter, esp. when classified or condensed.

so it is correct, right?

hazelnut
31-10-2007, 10:43
Could please any body help me? I’m to translate this:

“The lawyer’s offices have some unusual features, including Japanese-style “sleep pods” and a hidden entrance up to a private suite where deals can be signed in secrecy, rather than everyone being spotted falling out of the Ivy or the Walbrook. ”

What I don’t understand is who that Ivy and Walbrook are? Why everyone is “spotted” falling out of their places? Any suggestion?

Bels
31-10-2007, 11:01
Bels you go around understanding 30% of what people post...would not you better shut up?

really i have nothing against you personally but it is clear to me that you are a OMITTED teacher and you are not an academic

you have been probably little accustomed to literature and even lesser encouraged to compose essays

you have competences not culture


thanks to all others who seem to understand my stuff much better than bels

Bels, all your quotes are wrong because you constantly give the impression of understanding half of what people say. Seriously it is not the first time i notice it.

work on that

PS. my english is advanced, dont pay attention to the way i write here neverthless i am internatioanlly educated and attended state university in uk with flying colours

I don't believe you Sal, with such English demonstrated you wouldn't get the sufficient IELTS oints to study in the UK.

Of course I understand omitted Sal, but what is an omitted teacher, omitted from where. Yet again Sal, you are using words that are inappropriate. Very common for an intermediate student. Why don't you allow yourself to be taught, and not so pig-headed about your English level.

And thank you for asking me to shut up on my own thread, where I kindly invited you :)

Clean32
31-10-2007, 11:15
Could please any body help me? I’m to translate this:

“The lawyer’s offices have some unusual features, including Japanese-style “sleep pods” and a hidden entrance up to a private suite where deals can be signed in secrecy, rather than everyone being spotted falling out of the Ivy or the Walbrook. ”

What I don’t understand is who that Ivy and Walbrook are? Why everyone is “spotted” falling out of their places? Any suggestion?

Spotted = to be seen, recognized

Ivy = a plant that climes up the side of buildings, secret door may be hidden in the Ivy
Walbrook = "and old English word this one, it can have many implications going back to roman Latin, depending on context" in this case. Secrecy, club, exclusive club, gentleman’s club.

the Key in this statement is in the hidden "entrance up to a private suite" where people can not be recognized, coming or leavening, therefore are not identified and doing as business/deals at this place.

Another hint is from America, the Ivy league, refers to the older universities. And that there original buildings are covered in Ivy. To say some one is Ivy league educated is to say they attended a old an prestigious university, IE Yale and Harvard.

Walbrook, is a suburb of London, there are exclusive gentlemen’s clubs in this area, as well as the bank of England, Security, privacy and money.

hazelnut
31-10-2007, 11:23
Spotted = to be seen, recognized

Ivy = a plant that climes up the side of buildings, secret door may be hidden in the Ivy
Walbrook = "and old English word this one, it can have many implications going back to roman Latin, depending on context" in this case. Secrecy, club, exclusive club, gentleman’s club.

the Key in this statement is in the hidden "entrance up to a private suite" where people can not be recognized, coming or leavening, therefore are not identified and doing as business/deals at this place.

Another hint is from America, the Ivy league, refers to the older universities. And that there original buildings are covered in Ivy. To say some one is Ivy league educated is to say they attended a old an prestigious university, IE Yale and Harvard.

Walbrook, is a suburb of London, there are exclusive gentlemen’s clubs in this area, as well as the bank of England, Security, privacy and money.
An amount of information to be thought over!

Bels
31-10-2007, 11:26
Sal created an interesting argument about whether second language students of English should use simple or sophisticated English to learn.

This argument has been discussed many times by teachers. Should we teach using authentic articles or should we use articles that are specially designed for second language students. And if so, at which level should we start using authentic material?

MickeyTong
31-10-2007, 11:38
so it is correct, right?
Yes Sal, this is a correct use of the noun "digest". An example is The Readers Digest, which is basically a compilation of articles.

ridcully
31-10-2007, 12:27
Could please any body help me? I’m to translate this:

“The lawyer’s offices have some unusual features, including Japanese-style “sleep pods” and a hidden entrance up to a private suite where deals can be signed in secrecy, rather than everyone being spotted falling out of the Ivy or the Walbrook. ”

What I don’t understand is who that Ivy and Walbrook are? Why everyone is “spotted” falling out of their places? Any suggestion?

Hazelnut, these are references to fashionable places in London. The Walbrook is a dining club (see The Walbrook - Member and Private Club in the Heart of London (http://www.walbrook-club.co.uk)) located in the City of London (the financial district) and The Ivy (The Ivy (http://www.the-ivy.co.uk/)) is a very fashionable restaurant.

So what they're saying is:

Instead of taking youjr important client to The Ivy or The Walbrook - where everyone will know what you are doing - you can bring them here to a private suite.

OK? HTH!

hazelnut
31-10-2007, 13:22
OK? HTH!

What does HTH mean?

ridcully
31-10-2007, 14:23
What does HTH mean?

"Happy To Help" !!! :)

hazelnut
31-10-2007, 14:35
"Happy To Help" !!! :)
Happy To Have You Here!
Hazelnut The Hot

ridcully
31-10-2007, 15:22
Happy To Have You Here!
Hazelnut The Hot

Горячий лесной орех - очень круто!!! :)

Радушный Ридкалли (РР) :)

Clean32
31-10-2007, 18:35
Hazelnut, these are references to fashionable places in London. The Walbrook is a dining club (see The Walbrook - Member and Private Club in the Heart of London (http://www.walbrook-club.co.uk)) located in the City of London (the financial district) and The Ivy (The Ivy (http://www.the-ivy.co.uk/)) is a very fashionable restaurant.

So what they're saying is:

Instead of taking youjr important client to The Ivy or The Walbrook - where everyone will know what you are doing - you can bring them here to a private suite.

OK? HTH!

Agree and disagree in context. This place already has an entrance, so with references to a secrete entrance, Ivy and Walbrook, I would sagest that. «Instead of taking your important client to The Ivy or The Walbrook" I would say " so the clients could come and go in private, unlike as if they were to go to the Ivy or the walbrook".

If you can imagine paparazzi taking photos of everyone at either the Ivy or Walbrook." an exaggeration. Or to be noticed by a business competitor. “more real"

It’s actually quite hard to explain, it’s something that is naturally understood, but to explain it to someone else is uumm difficult.

Up until now I thought the hardest thing I ever had to explain, to a Thai English teacher, there was a BBK post article as to why the post office was putting up the cost of a stamp “due to a projected fiscal short fall"

SalTheReturn
07-11-2007, 14:06
I don't believe you Sal, with such English demonstrated you wouldn't get the sufficient IELTS oints to study in the UK.

Of course I understand omitted Sal, but what is an omitted teacher, omitted from where. Yet again Sal, you are using words that are inappropriate. Very common for an intermediate student. Why don't you allow yourself to be taught, and not so pig-headed about your English level.

And thank you for asking me to shut up on my own thread, where I kindly invited you :)

IELTS passed in 2000

my university was London College of Printing, The London Institute

end of the story

Bels
07-11-2007, 14:46
Well done Sal, did you need a level 7 or 8. I think you need at least an 8 for University.